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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-20

---Logopened Thu Sep 20 00:00:07 2007
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03:09<dihedral>hello
03:09<dihedral>Rubidium: are you around?
03:10<dihedral>or somebody else who could tell me something about the grf data sent in the udp packets? :-)
03:11<dihedral>TrueBrain?
03:11<boekabart>is someone to just say 'good morning' any help at all?
03:11<boekabart>good morning ;)
03:11<dihedral>good morning
03:15<dihedral>i have this integer for grf_id: 4014b52 but should have this: 524B0104
03:15<dihedral>anybody with any ideas?
03:16<Ammler>little endian?
03:16<dihedral>sorry - little correction: i have this integer: 67193682
03:17<dihedral>it is sent as uint32
03:19<Rubidium> if full_debug == 1:
03:19<Rubidium> ReportText('speed: ' + str(speed) + ', GPS: ' + gps_data[GPS_LAT] + ', ' + \
03:19<Rubidium> gps_data[GPS_LONG] + ' with ' + gps_data[GPS_SAT] + ' satellites')
03:19<Rubidium>oops :(
03:20<Rubidium>but yes, you need to change the endianness and convert it to hex
03:20<boekabart>Rubidium: looks interesting ; what are you working on? (gps)
03:20[~]Rubidium has a GPS that does not do what it's supposed to do...
03:21[~]boekabart points out that a gps is not a system meant to teleport you to any global position
03:22<Rubidium>the GPS is supposed to get the location it is at, but it kinda fails to do so
03:22<Rubidium>*very* often
03:23<boekabart>go outside, it might help LOL
03:24<dihedral>how do i then 'change the endianness' ?
03:24<SpComb>dihedral: use pack
03:25<SpComb>hmm, I assumed it would support specifying byte order
03:26<dihedral>h and H
03:26<dihedral>?
03:28<Rubidium>boekabart: most likely not
03:29<Rubidium>cause it worked... then it stopped working... then it start working after <unknown>... then it stopped working again
03:29<dihedral>Rubidium: perhaps you need some more <unknown>
03:29<dihedral>:-)
03:32<dihedral>if i just convert dec 2 hex i get what i posted by mistake: 4014b52
03:32<dihedral>not 524B0104
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03:34<Ammler>dihedral: now change from little endian and you have it
03:35<Ammler>begin at the end :)
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03:38[~]dihedral is giving it a try :-)
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03:44<dihedral>how the f... do i do that?
03:44<Tefad>carefully
03:44[~]dihedral slaps Tefad
03:44<dihedral>:-)
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03:51<dihedral>brb
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04:04<Rubidium>dihedral: there are like a gazillion places where they explain how you can "switch" between endiannesses
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04:17<dihedral>Rubidium: thanks - i shall have a look
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04:58<dihedral>Rubidium: thanks - finally understood what i had to do :-)
04:58<dihedral>Ammler: thanks to you too :-)
04:59<dihedral>Rubidium: though i do wonder why everything is sent one way - and grf id another?
05:04<boekabart>i'd say it's because everything can be 'the native endiness' internally
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05:04<boekabart>except stuff in Savegames and Data packets - they have to be in 1 uniform way indepentent of endiness of the client
05:04<boekabart>...independent, too
05:05<boekabart>... so that a BE client can talk to a LE client without getting all confused
05:06<dihedral>hence i am asking Rubidium, the the "i'd say" becomes a 'i know' :-)
05:06<dihedral>*so the
05:07<dihedral>:-P
05:10<dihedral>i dont understand this endianness enough to grasp why things are one way and other another...
05:11<Ammler>dihedral: hmm, wikipedia has a good article about it, also in "our" language.
05:12<Ammler>most importend is that the address of little endian doesn't change, if you change i.e. from 1Byte to 4 Byte
05:13<dihedral>does that mean most significant byte and least significant byte swap places?
05:13<dihedral>etc
05:14<dihedral>"our" language.... i am bilingual :-)
05:14<dihedral>my mother is from london :-)
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05:14<Amix>just wonder. in which release will tram be a option?
05:14<Amix>and will different companies be able to use the same tracks?
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05:16<dihedral>Amix: you know the nightly builds?
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05:20<N101>dihedral: do the nightly builds allow use of other companies tracks?
05:23<Amix>dihedral: yes
05:23<Amix>i use them
05:23<Amix>but allmost no one got nightly
05:23<Amix>and ive been told that trams will be bundled with 0.3.6
05:23<N101>i play on openttdCoop
05:23<dihedral>N101: they include trams
05:24<N101>ah ok
05:24<dihedral>answers Amix' first question
05:25<Amix>the tram solution in openttd is way better than the one in locomotion for sure
05:25<Amix>nice stations!
05:29<blathijs>Amix: 0.3.6?
05:30<Amix>0.5.4 i ment
05:30<Amix>doh
05:30<Amix>sorry
05:30<blathijs>:-)
05:31<Amix>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/grabb/Trams.png
05:31<Amix>see
05:31<Amix>its pretty cool
05:32<Rubidium>Amix: who told you take trams will be in 0.5.4 and/or 0.3.6?
05:32<Amix>people playing openttd
05:33<dihedral>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/grabb/Trams.png
05:33<dihedral>whops...
05:33<boekabart>can I ask .. what is 0.3.6 ?
05:33<dihedral>a version number
05:33<boekabart>:D
05:33<boekabart>for what
05:34<dihedral>openttd
05:34<dihedral>as the current stable release is 0.5.3
05:34<Amix>yes
05:34<dihedral>some time there was a 0.3
05:34<Amix>but as i am playing
05:34<Amix>people talks about trams
05:34<Amix>then some talks about nightly
05:34<dihedral>lol
05:34<Amix>others about 0.5.4 release
05:35<dihedral>0.6 being more like it
05:35<boekabart>dihedral: ah, right.
05:35<boekabart>sounds more logical :)
05:35<dihedral>:-)
05:35<Amix>what would be cool, if someone would make avenues
05:35<Amix>;)
05:36<dihedral>go ahead :-)
05:36<Amix>oki
05:36<Amix>give me coding skills then
05:36<Amix>;P
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05:37[~]dihedral is out for lunch
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05:44<Rubidium>well, I can assure you that 0.5.4 will not have trams. The person saying it will be in 0.5.4 must be slapped.
05:44<Amix>are they to unstable, or ?
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05:47<Rubidium>way too many changes to go into a bugfix release
05:47<Rubidium>furthermore the code the trams are based on are so vastly different that backporting isn't an option
05:47<Amix>ok
05:49<Rubidium>though all of that has been described on the wiki too
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06:36<Rubidium>gfldex: STOP with the overabundant joins and quits!
06:39<ln->just ban him
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06:41<frosch123>< skidd13> (_patches.autoslope && !_is_old_ai_player && (IsValidPlayer(_current_player) || (_current_player == OWNER_NONE && _game_mode == GM_EDITOR)))
06:42<frosch123>That will also enable autoslope, when placing industries
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06:45<skidd13>Hmm, true.
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06:46<skidd13>I just thought over a simple solution to start with.
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06:46<Ammler>Rubidium: your client can also ignore such notes
06:47<Rubidium>Ammler: yes, but then I won't know when somebody I need to ask comes online either
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06:57<skidd13>frosch123:Where's your problem with the enabled autoslope for industries? It's enabled for the player placed industries in game?
07:02<frosch123>Err, don't know. Perhaps I only tested the random-placed.
07:03<frosch123>I am not that familiar with the editor. Is there a way to randomly generate industries?
07:03<skidd13>yup The first element of the matrix-widget of the create industry window.
07:06<frosch123>And should they also use autoslope?
07:07<skidd13>I don't see any use for them. It's a larger check but I'm not so deep in the industries code to be able to decide.
07:10<skidd13>Belugas is the person who cares for the industries code. Just ask him.
07:10<frosch123>I was talking about a user-view.
07:11<frosch123>The land leveling for industries was introduced by TGP, not by newindustries.
07:11<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
07:11<_42_>Sacro, Bjarni (~Bjarni@0x50a4166d.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 12 hours 56 minutes ago (19.09. 23:15) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 7 hours 4 minutes there.
07:11<Sacro>:(
07:11<Sacro>http://presurfer.blogspot.com/2007/09/train-runs-through-bangkok-market.html <- this scares me
07:13<boekabart>actually - they put a market near/under/around the rails, not the other way around
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07:15<skidd13>frosch123: As I said earlier I don't see the use of autoslope for industries. The leveling should be enough IMO (user view).
07:15[~]boekabart agrees
07:17<skidd13>But for NewIndustries it might be usefull. As I said the one who can answer this question is Belugas.
07:18<frosch123>I already discussed the autoslope aspect with newindustries with Belugas.
07:18<skidd13>:)
07:19<frosch123>The point is: IMO autoslope on placing industries in editor is not wanted by user.
07:19<frosch123>So it must be disabled.
07:19[~]skidd13 agrees
07:19<frosch123>Same holds for player-funded industries in the game, I guess.
07:21<skidd13>I tried it a while (with the conditions) but was not able to autoslope by placing a industy.
07:21<boekabart>frosch123: how about: enable ONLY if the player Manually places any building at a CHOSEN location
07:21<boekabart>building being rail/road/station/industry
07:22<boekabart>but not if the player 'funds' an industry that gets built at a random location
07:23<frosch123>This is getting more complicated every time
07:24<skidd13>That brings one thing in my mind. Why don't adding a control bit to the level land command.
07:24<frosch123>skidd13: Generate a random map, place some town on a hill, and fund a industry at the hill side
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07:25<skidd13>Adding a controll bit would remove the whole check stuff and would require only a few changes in the GUI-call-functions
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07:26<boekabart>skidd13: I think I agree - only enable it _if_ it was a player-initiated build command
07:27<skidd13>And it will be faster code, cause less checks :D
07:27<skidd13>And the NoAI could be able to use it.
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07:29<frosch123>I have no OTTD on this machine, but if you want to try: In industry_cmd the command-flags are passed to TerraformTile_Industry
07:29<frosch123>NoAI? Doesn't it behave just like a human player?
07:31<skidd13>frosch123: if you want to try <-- It's OK.
07:31<skidd13>NoAI <-- Depends on the programmer :D
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07:58<@Bjarni>Sacro: you want tips for MS train sim again?
07:58<Sacro>Bjarni: http://presurfer.blogspot.com/2007/09/train-runs-through-bangkok-market.html
07:59<@Bjarni>basically just do as I do and you will do fine
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08:06[~]Bjarni wonders why that movie makes him think of Hull
08:06<@Bjarni>:p
08:06<@Bjarni>somehow I'm not surprised
08:07<@Bjarni>Asia, Africa and South America produces a lot of stuff like this
08:07<@Bjarni>specially Asia
08:08<SpComb>someone's actually playing on bugmenot's server :P
08:11<@Bjarni>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2l9TzV04aw <-- somehow that movie reminded me of this place
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08:16<@Bjarni>Sacro: btw what was it about your house leaking?
08:17<SpComb>does OpenTTD have any kind of equivalent to TTDPatch's switches.xml? I.e. to let me support modifying the config file settings for different OpenTTD versions automatically?
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08:22<Eddi|zuHause2>settings.cpp?
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08:28<SpComb>ugh... looks... semiparseable
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08:28<Sacro>Bjarni: the hot water tank was leaking down via my light socket
08:28<Sacro>which was making some very interesting sparky noises
08:29<@Bjarni>that sucks
08:30<@Bjarni>or is it soaks? :p
08:30<Eddi|zuHause2>SpComb: well, you could as well just compile it :p
08:30<@Bjarni>so how much is ruined? the entire floor?
08:31<SpComb>I think I'll just run a couple of regexps against the file
08:31<SpComb>and stab anyone who adds an extra newline or whatever somewhere
08:36<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you could at least push it through the pre-processor, will probably simplify the layout a bit
08:41<SpComb>http://pb.marttila.de/165 <-- not particularly
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08:43<SpComb>but that's for later, first I need support for savegames
08:48<SpComb>" -g [savegame] = Start new/save game immediately" --- the wording's slightly unclear, does it make it load up said savegame?
08:49<+glx>-g -> newgame, -g savegame -> load savegame, -g scenario -> load scenario
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09:49<dihedral>just got my first newgrf query to work :-)
09:49<dihedral>YAY
09:49[~]dihedral is happy
09:50<dihedral>Ammler...?
09:50<Ammler>cool, so version 0.3 will be released soon :)
09:50<dihedral>aye
09:51<dihedral>i shall query one of the coop games :-)
09:51<Ammler>hmm, yes, the public server uses about some grfs
09:52<Ammler>openttdcoop.ppcis.org:3980
09:53<Ammler>from where do you get the infos about newgrfs? (Name)
09:53<+glx>and still no assert I guess ;)
09:53<dihedral>from the server
09:54<Ammler>glx: the assert was on an other server (german community)
09:54<dihedral>you query and get the server_info, which holds grf id and md5sum
09:54<dihedral>send that data back to the server and get names
09:54<dihedral>but i only get 4 new grf details from the coop game
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09:55<Ammler>we use about 30 NewGRFs
09:56<dihedral>i know
09:56<dihedral>i have the id's and md5's but when getting a UDP_SERVER_NEWGRFS it only includes 4
09:56<dihedral>is Rubidium around by any chance?
09:58<dihedral>:-(
09:58<boekabart>dihedral: It has to do with max. packet size; it think you get more than 1 of those
10:00<dihedral>heh
10:00<boekabart>after you get one, then you reply with another request in which you request more
10:01<dihedral>i get more data in a UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO packet
10:02<boekabart>ah no wair
10:02<boekabart>wait
10:02<dihedral>and i get more info in the simple server info packet
10:02<boekabart>you send a PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_GET_NEWGRFS right?
10:02<dihedral>yep - would not get the UDP_SERVER_NEWGRFS back other wise :-)
10:03<dihedral>i have 4 grf files, that are correct
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10:03<boekabart>hm
10:03<dihedral>the rest is simply missing!
10:04<dihedral>so it tells me that i am at least doing /something/ right
10:05<dihedral>also checked the details against those at servers.openttd.org
10:05<boekabart>and it doesn't have to do with line 208 (network_udp.cpp) num_grfs = p->Recv_uint8 (); ??
10:05<Ammler>http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php?id=10 <-- there is a GRF with GRFID 0, how can that happen?
10:06<dihedral>my packet has a 26 for the server to read there
10:06<boekabart> if (packet_len > SEND_MTU - 4) { // 4 is 3 byte header + grf count in reply
10:06<boekabart> break;
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10:06<dihedral>all i send back to the server, is what i get in the info packet anyway
10:07<dihedral>so it aint the packet size
10:07<dihedral>perhaps on the response
10:07<Socarys>hi, i have a problem with nightly r11129... in multiplayer after12month the server restarted
10:07<boekabart>the pack you get is << 1460 bytes?
10:08<dihedral>i dont even care to read more data from the file pointer
10:09<dihedral>the packet is constructed correctly, as otherwise it would go through on the server side as an invalid packet
10:09<dihedral>and be ignored, dropped
10:09<dihedral>as i get a response from the server, something must be going through
10:10<dihedral>as i get details for the grfid i send as second place and no details come back from the first grfid in the packet
10:10<dihedral>something is not as i exprected it
10:11<dihedral>but anyhow - i need to be getting ready
10:11<dihedral>heading out for this evening
10:11<dihedral>at least it's getting somewhere
10:11<dihedral>i shall do some more work tomorrow
10:11<dihedral>later ladies :-)
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10:13<SpComb>openttd doesn't seem to like paths as the argument to load
10:13<SpComb>i.e. `save "7/1"` works fine, but `load "7/1.sav"` fails
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10:14<gfldex>SpComb: what os?
10:15<SpComb>linux
10:15<gfldex>that is has to be prevented on application level
10:15<gfldex>is there a dialog for invalid file names?
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10:16<gfldex>and you should remove or rename that file befor you do any backups
10:17<SpComb>dialog? blaa/foo.sav: No such file or directory.
10:17<SpComb>and why before I do any backups?
10:19<gfldex>well, technically it's a valid file name but it can get funky if you confront applications with it
10:19<gfldex>and a (semi) bad filename in an archiv can drive you nuts if you use anything more complex then tar
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10:23<gfldex>zip it and send that save game to a windows person if you want to drive him crazy :)
10:23<SpComb>seems I need to cd into the directory to use load
10:24<SpComb>it builds a list of files, and then goes through them, comparing against the given filename
10:28<gfldex>it's a bug
10:28<gfldex>you have to work with inodes to get around that
10:28<gfldex>so the function that gives you the list of file names for the load dialog has to hand out both the file name and the inode number
10:29<gfldex>then you have to use the inode number to load the file and not the full path
10:29<gfldex>but nobody is doing it that way
10:29<gfldex>the only program that is working on inodes i know of is postfix
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10:34<gfldex>gnome terminal just crashed and showed me a send-a-crash-report dialog. for every single terminal one dialog
10:34<gfldex>and it opened a browser window with help for gnome terminal :)
10:34<gfldex>about 10x
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10:34<gfldex>anyway, that / - problem is a bug because it's not portable
10:35<gfldex>the application should tell the user not to use / \\ and any unprintable chars
10:36<gfldex>i think posix forbids at least / and the linux standard base forbids it for sure
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10:38<gfldex>there is a SanizieFilename(char *filename) in fileio.cpp, seams not to get used that often
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10:52<gfldex>SpComb: did you wrote a bug report?
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10:56<SpComb>no, I just used `cd dir` and `cd ..`
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11:00<SpComb>right, now the backend supports savegames, just need to make the web frontend support them
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11:39<Nite>hi - anyone know about "myottd"
11:39<Nite>i cant reach teh website !?
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11:40<SpComb>should work, at http://dev.myottd.marttila.de:8160
11:41<Nite>ok i ce "very :)" alpha
11:41<Nite>Ü
11:42<Nite>ü
11:45<SpComb>there, now it should have support for savegames
11:45<SpComb>one click to save, one click to load a different savegame
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11:45<SpComb>http://pub.marttila.de/p/hAAAAA
11:46<Nite>is there newgrf support yet?
11:46<SpComb>nope
11:47<Nite>are there other sites where you can host easily?
11:48<Nite>ist there a way to multiply runningcosts?
11:48<SpComb>what do you mean? Some different site where you can run your own dedicated server?
11:48<Nite>yeah
11:48<SpComb>not that I know of
11:50<Nite>i think the us set runingcosts should be 10(ten) times higher - any ideas?
11:51<SpComb>is it some OpenTTD patch setting?
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11:51<SpComb>you'll have to wait for me to implement support for those
11:51<Eddi|zuHause2>Nite: there's a difficulty setting for running costs
11:52<SpComb>I'd just need to implement support for it
11:52<Nite>yeah but the dificult setting only adjusts running cost very slightly
11:52<SpComb>(assuming that's what he meant, maybe not)
11:52<Nite>wit for U :-o
11:53<SpComb>may have understood wrong, I'm not going to modify OpenTTD to add some freighttrains patch, just implement support for configuring them in MyOTTD
11:53<Nite>kk
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12:07<SpComb>ok, now it saves the game before it shuts down, and loads it when it starts up, so the server reboots shouldn't kill your game anymore
12:09<SpComb>and I think I've finally managed to get svn under control
12:13<SpComb>how easy/hard would it be to extract the current/start date from a savegame file?
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12:14<SpComb>I can also encode that info in the filename using the console getdate command, but if the date's at a fixed offset in a reasonably simple format, it would be cleaner
12:17<SpComb>also, no way to get the starting date of the current game via the console
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you could as well just start a server to load the game and query it...
12:24<SpComb>well, I want to display the start and current dates in the savegames list
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12:27<Wolf01>hello
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>well, saveload.cpp might possibly explain more about the savegame format
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13:06<Ammler>is there someone who did patch chrisIN?
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13:07<Ammler>I am not able to patch my SVN source with that.
13:08<Ammler>sometimes, it addes contend more then once in one file
13:09<Ammler>omg, (sry for my english)
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13:13<Ammler>I patched with >patch -p0 -i chrisIN.diff
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13:27<Nite>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opy2MHnWLB4&mode=related&search=
13:34<SmatZ>Ammler: I was able to apply chrisin patch
13:35<SmatZ>for revision 11114
13:35<SmatZ>didn't try to other revisions...
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13:35<SmatZ>I everytime use "patch -p 0 -l -F 666 < file"
13:36<Ammler>SmatZ: ok, I try that
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13:39<Ammler>SmatZ: the problem is with new files
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13:39<Ammler>when I patch multiple times
13:41<Ammler>hmm, and I don't understand "fuzz factor"
13:45<SpComb>http://pub.marttila.de/p/hgAAAA + http://pub.marttila.de/p/hwAAAA <-- savegames!
13:46<Ammler>SpComb: uploading a save?
13:48<SpComb>not yet
13:50<SpComb>it also saves the game on shutdown and resumes it on startup, so me restarting the server won't kill it entirely
13:53<Ammler>SpComb: do you only make the software or do you really like to host MyOTTD?
13:54<SpComb>I'll be hosting MyOTTD in the future as well
13:54<Ammler>did you think about the CPU usage?
13:55<SpComb>it's probably not particularly high, but I'll obviously have to put limits on how many servers can exist
13:56<Ammler>hmm, or that only servers are running, where someone like to connect
13:56<SpComb>the source code's also available, of course, svn://svn.marttila.de/myottd
13:56<Ammler>ok, paused server don't need cpu
13:57<Ammler>and what are requirements?
13:57<Ammler>SmatZ: my patch problem was only the new files
13:58<Ammler>can I tell svn to delete files on revert?
13:58<SpComb>python 2.4, postgres, twisted, pylons, sqlalchemy, psycopg, pypgsql, possibly some other things
13:58<SpComb>nor is it packaged for distribution, so you'd have to install all of those yourself, and set up the db
13:59<Ammler>hmm, its not a "common" setup
13:59<SpComb>not really, no, it's python+postgres
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause2><Ammler> sometimes, it addes contend more then once in one file <- "patch" can not handle new files correctly, you have to delete them (patch -R) before applying the new patch
14:17<Eddi|zuHause2>and "fuzz factor" means that it could add the lines, but the context lines did not match correctly
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause2>best is to apply such a patch to a clean checkout each time
14:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: thanks, I did a new checkout
14:20<Ammler>and patched only with patch -p0 < patch
14:20<Ammler>and it worked
14:21<Ammler>(sry for my short lines, chatted to much over ottd)
14:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11133 /trunk/src/sprite.h: -Fix (r11102) [FS#1245]: in some cases vehicles would be drawn over houses when they should be drawn behind the houses. Patch by frosch.
14:23<Prof_Frink>Random suggestion #284927: Could you make 'summary' news items display like chat messages?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2014.%20Mar%201926.png <- snowy towns are awesome :)
14:27<Ailure>hmm
14:27<Ailure>that would certainly be uesful
14:27<Ailure>*uesful
14:27<Ailure>...grah
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2>Prof_Frink: you mean ticker items?
14:28<Ailure>I played with the idea of having a constantly scrolling ticker if there's a few news items behind
14:28<Ailure>like the ticker in SC3000
14:28<Ailure>but making it show as chat messages is probably less of a hassle
14:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i hated the ticker in SC3000
14:30<Prof_Frink>The trouble with the scolliness is it takes too long, so you tend to get a backlog of messages
14:30<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: did you "hack" alpine.grf?
14:31<Ammler>or have you a working newindustry release?=
14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but i do have a patched build ;)
14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>well, "working" is slightly exaggerated
14:31<Ailure>[21:29] <Eddi|zuHause2> i hated the ticker in SC3000
14:31<Ailure>the ticker in TTD is way worse either way :P
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, but i tend to ignore that one anyway ;)
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14:33<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: with changing snowline?
14:33<Ailure>hmm
14:33<Ailure>seems like I hadn't updated my local trunk for over 500 revisions
14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that one works great ;)
14:34<Ammler>is that in roadmap for 0.6?
14:35<Ammler>snowline also affect industry?
14:37<Ailure>as I understand it, if it's a crucial part of newindustries then yes it is
14:37<Rubidium>snowlines crucial for newindustries?
14:38<Rubidium>and for that matter, changing snowlines have been implemented ages ago
14:38<Rubidium>I wouldn't even be surprised if it is in 0.5
14:38<Ammler>:o
14:39<Ailure>hmm yes its' been in for awhile
14:39<Ailure>forgot about it
14:39<Ailure>well, it dosen't change during the game but it's probably possible to make it do that
14:39<Eddi|zuHause2>once upon a time there was a patch setting to change the snowline height
14:40<Ailure>you can't change the snowline during the game
14:40<Ailure>but you can set before starting it at least
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>and yes, snowline also affects industires
14:41<Eddi|zuHause2>but not all industries in alpine have a snowy version yet
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14:42<Ailure>don't some industry that appears both below and above snowline look the same anyway?
14:43<Ailure>like the power station >_>
14:43<Ailure>which I alway thought looked a bit weird without snow
14:44<Ailure>hm
14:44<Ailure>then of the orginal industries
14:44<Prof_Frink>I suspect that's related to the funny-coloured grass on large airports
14:44<Ailure>only the "forest" one is snow-covered
14:44<Ailure>hah good point
14:44<Rubidium>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0GeneralVariables#Snow_line_height_table_10_ <- is implemented in r9371
14:44<Ailure>I always thought that looked weird
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14:45<Nite>well about snowline - you CANB simply set it.
14:45<Rubidium>ergo... you *can* change the snow line height during the game
14:45<Prof_Frink>Ailure: It's because those tiles are reused
14:45<Nite>-B
14:45<Eddi|zuHause2>there are some additional snowy industries in alpine.grf
14:45<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. the farm
14:45<Prof_Frink>From Transport Tycoon
14:45<Ailure>of course I knew that
14:45<Ailure>heh
14:45<Ailure>oh
14:45<Ailure>you meant in that way
14:46<Ailure>well yeah
14:46<Ailure>the grass on the airport is the old-style grass
14:46<Eddi|zuHause2>and the factories have grassy roofs also (same way as the town buildings
14:46<Eddi|zuHause2>s/grassy/snowy/
14:46<Ailure>http://194.47.44.201/openttd/oldTT2.PNG
14:47<Ailure>yep
14:47<Ailure>it's using the old grass
14:47<Ailure>damn I prefer the look of the stone in TT
14:47<Ailure>and same for it's rough land
14:47<Ailure>the grass is a bit bright though
14:48<Ailure>http://194.47.44.201/openttd/TTO/roughland.PNG
14:48<Ailure>TTO is near unplayable when you're used to the more advanced signals
14:49<Prof_Frink>Ailure: The best bits of TTO that got dropped in TTD were the monorail graphics
14:49<Ailure>http://194.47.44.201/openttd/TTO/mars.PNG
14:49<Ailure>looking at old savegames from back then is close to embrassing
14:49<Ailure>then there wasn't even one-way signals
14:49<Ailure>and yeah
14:50<SmatZ>TTO! <3
14:50<Ailure>I never liked the way monorail or maglev was implemented in TTD
14:50<Ailure>it was somewhat better in TTO
14:50<Ailure>but I prefer something like how most trainsets does it
14:50<Ailure>or some of them
14:50<Ailure>like UKRS
14:50<Prof_Frink>Especially the monorail bridge
14:50<Ailure>maglev is there, but it dosen't replace railway
14:50<Ailure>just complement it
14:51<Ailure>the monorail bridge looked a bit plain
14:51<Ailure>at least for longer distances
14:51<Prof_Frink>Heh, in my TTO games, monorails replaced railway
14:51<Prof_Frink>good ol' single-headed X2001s
14:51<Ailure>heh
14:52<Ailure>Looks nothing like the real x2000 trains
14:52<Ailure>which are here in Sweden
14:52<Ailure>it's a regular railway train too
14:52<Ailure>not monorail :P
14:52<Ailure>pretty modern looking though
14:53<Ailure>reminds me about the talk about the economy rebalancing
14:54<Ailure>I liked the idea of monorail being the cheapest but somewhat less flexible than regular railways :P
14:54<Prof_Frink>Meh, looks like a grey TGV
14:54<Ailure>heh
14:54<Ailure>it's built for the swedish railways too
14:54<Ailure>which aren't very straight apparently :P
14:54<Ailure>so it's tilting too
14:55<Prof_Frink>Yeah, I'm reading its wiki page
14:55<Ailure>I live next to a train station so I see them now and then
14:55<Ailure>they have a... intresting sound on it's engine.
14:56<Prof_Frink>Is it anything like the scream you get from a 125 flying past?
14:56<Ailure>It's supposed to compete with aircraft transport, which is ironic as it does sound little bit like an aircraft
14:56<Ailure>nah it's not a really that much awful of a noise
14:57<Ailure>just unusual for a train
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15:43<ln->prison break 3x01 is there.
15:44<Wolf01>:O
15:44<Wolf01>we are waiting for 2x01, the next week
15:45<+glx>I just saw 2x03 and 2x04 here
15:45<ln->by "there", i meant the world wide web.
15:45<Rubidium>ln-: it's been "there" for ages
15:45<ln->the finnish tv is at about 2x05 or so.
15:46<ln->Rubidium: it was only aired last sunday or something, is that "ages"?
15:47<Rubidium>well, kinda yes
15:47<ln->correction, aired this monday.
15:47<Rubidium>you can even view stargate atlantis 4x01 and 4x02
15:48<ln->and by world wide web i mean the www, not p2p.
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15:48[~]Rubidium didn't use p2p
15:48<Rubidium>oh, and Stargate Atlantis 4x01 is going to be aired Friday the 28th
15:51<+glx>I'm still waiting for S3
15:52<Rubidium>ergo... if you're "lucky" you can view episodes way before they're aired
15:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: lol, did you watch 401 and 402 that are 'available' currently? :)
15:54<TrueBrain>is without background music
15:54<TrueBrain>VERY cool to watch :p
15:54<TrueBrain>you hear people saying: SHOT SHOT
15:55<Rubidium>TrueBrain: that's more or less why I said viewed and not watched
15:55<TrueBrain>;)
15:55<Rubidium>but yes, it's very interesting how it is without sound
15:55<TrueBrain>I could 'watch' it for 12 minutes
15:55<TrueBrain>then it really annoyed me :p
15:57<Rubidium>yes, it's very annoying
15:57<Rubidium>another thing that annoys me, but what is done "right" in those two is the fact that you can't hear anything in space
15:57<Rubidium>but you *always* hear the spaceships passing
15:58<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I love the most in the last of 3, that they moved an astroid with ships
15:58<TrueBrain>far out in space they put on their fuel engines...
15:58<TrueBrain>and SPEEDY they went
15:58<TrueBrain>amazing :p
15:59<Rubidium>now you've spoiled it for glx... you bastard
15:59<TrueBrain>:)
15:59<TrueBrain>DOH!
16:00<+glx>well they eventually will never show it
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16:01<+glx>as they already done with other shows
16:01<ln->does anyone want me to spoil prison break season 2?
16:01<TrueBrain>ln-: only if you want a ban? :)
16:04<ln->they all are out and live their lives happily ever after.
16:05<Rubidium>ln-: haha ;)
16:05<Wolf01>'night
16:05<Rubidium>ah well, if that's what ln- calls "happily" ;)
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16:08<Ammler>is it possible to switch off "exclusive rights"?
16:09<Ammler>it the only possibilty to do it too
16:13<SmatZ>no, there is some patch, but not in trunk... but you may disable it by modifying server
16:14<gfldex_>is there a way to tell gprof to show a bit smaller numbers?
16:16<SmatZ>what 'smaller numbers'?
16:18<gfldex_>it tells me that functions need 0.00 m/s. I would like to have something like 0.0005 m/s in the output
16:18<SmatZ>I don't think it is possible
16:18<SmatZ>eg. if system kernel allows interrupt more often
16:19<gfldex_>it takes the samples with a lot higher resolution
16:19<gfldex_>you can tell if you stick the whole program into a loop of 1000
16:21<Ammler>:) just realized, that the one who bought exklisve right drops do appalling after that
16:23<SmatZ>gfldex_: the running program is interrupted 100 times a second, and everytime it logs what function is being run. Switching tasks takes some time, and the system timer may be able to generate interrupts only at 100Hz. So then it is not possible to have any higher resolution.
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16:25<gfldex_>i doubt they use an interrupt. my guess would be symbol table magic
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16:26<Rubidium>gfldex_: bad guess
16:26<Rubidium>Profiling also involves watching your program as it runs, and keeping a histogram of where the program counter happens to be every now and then. Typically the program counter is looked at around 100 times per second of run time, but the exact frequency may vary from system to system.
16:26|-|glx|away changed nick to glx
16:26<Rubidium>http://www.cs.utah.edu/dept/old/texinfo/as/gprof.html#SEC11 <- from the GProf manual
16:27<Rubidium>gfldex_: and "The run-time figures that gprof gives you are based on a sampling process, so they are subject to statistical inaccuracy. If a function runs only a small amount of time, so that on the average the sampling process ought to catch that function in the act only once, there is a pretty good chance it will actually find that function zero times, or twice."
16:27<Rubidium>on the same page
16:29|-|gfldex_ changed nick to gfldex
16:32<gfldex>that would render gprof rather useless
16:35<SmatZ>gfldex: gprof only reads the statistical data logged by program
16:35<SmatZ>how do you mean 'useless'?
16:35<SmatZ>how else would you measure runtime of functions, and number of their runs?
16:37<Rubidium>ofcourse not
16:37<TinoDidriksen>gprof should be used together with gcov to get best data. Hardly matters if something takes 3 seconds if it only happens once per execution.
16:37<Rubidium>gprof should add a hardware component that gets triggered each time a function call is made, so it can do proper logging
16:38<gfldex>it's good to find out what functions are called often but it cant really tell you if a function that's not called often in your test (that will differ from those of users) is awfully slow
16:38<SmatZ>maybe I misunderstood the question then
16:39<gfldex>you could use debug registers but that would limit the number of functions you watch to a few 100
16:39<Rubidium>making the function that is called most often faster isn't usually the best way to make an application faster
16:39<SmatZ>making the function that takes the most time faster is the best way to make whole program faster
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16:40<Rubidium>not true either (all the time)
16:40<Rubidium>(as in: not true for all cases either)
16:40<SmatZ>it depends how much can you make it faster, but you should look at functions that take the most time as the first
16:41<SmatZ>when something takes only 1% of runtime, making it 10 times faster won't make the program faster...
16:41<SmatZ>but function that takes 20% when is made 10 times faster, the program will be ~ 18% fater
16:42<Rubidium>calling something much much less is also a very good candidate
16:43<SmatZ>it is a way to make something faster... depends if you look at 'total time including called functions' or only 'time spent in function'
16:43<SmatZ>but yes, you are right
16:44<Rubidium>I usually see people who are primarily focussed only on the thing on the top
16:44<Rubidium>and only that function
16:45<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, why does my express train not get a dining car?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>the readme says i get a dining car if i have at least 8 wagons
16:47<gfldex>is that the DB set Eddi?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah
16:48<gfldex>no wonder then. if it comes to DB you better have a walk
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>it is 1927 and i have a BR 18 with 1 mail and 11 passenger wagons
16:49<gfldex>wasnt that right in the middle of the depression?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>no, that was way earlier
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Inflation_1914_bis_1923
16:52<gfldex>i found something called OProfile. needs a 2.4 kernel tho :(
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>but i want a dining car now!! *stomps on the ground*
16:55<Nite>gues 8 wagons on some special loco at some special time
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have the patch to double check the behaviour...
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17:08<Ailure>mmm who am I?
17:08<Nite>you are ailure
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>[Whois] Ailure ist Ailure@194.47.44.201 (lol)
17:09<Ailure>....haha I had lol as full name
17:09<Ailure>stupid mIRC
17:09<Nite>dana or xchat is nice
17:10<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i just cheated to 1955, and i get a dining car there...
17:10<Nite>does this make you less hungry now?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause2>no, because i have 1927, and that is an awful long time to wait :p
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17:13<Amix>xchat is nice
17:13<Ailure>using telnet for IRC is nice too
17:13<Ailure>:)
17:13<Nite>trilian really sucks for irc
17:14<Amix>amirc and wookiechat for amigaos works ;)
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17:26<valhallasw>irssi \\o
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- my network is finally getting shape (even without PBS ;))
17:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i could use a little faster bridges...
17:55<gfldex>you play DB, your trains will be late anyway
17:56<gfldex>according to your currency you play RB actually
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>there is no DB in 1927, it's DRG
18:18<Nite>drb
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>(german reich railway corporation)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>damn, it is difficult to build double track through the mountains...
18:21<svippy>Surprise?
18:22<svippy>And OpenTTD lacks mountains and cliffs and valleys and bottomless pit holes.
18:22<svippy>Uh, bottomless tar pits*
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>what?
18:23<svippy>You'd think you can have a game without bottomless tar pits?!
18:23<Nite>locomotion has great landscape/cliffs valleys - BUT nothing else
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause2>ottd has great landscape... i occasionally miss the possibility to dig my rails on the lower end of a slope instead of adding a foundation
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18:30<Amix>ottd lacks avenues for cities etc
18:30<Amix>;)
18:30<Amix>other than that
18:30<Amix>the tramsystem, is great
18:30<Amix>though problem is
18:30<Amix>they get stuck sometimes
18:31|-|Hendikins changed nick to Hendikins|FlyingAgain
18:31<Amix>its not possible to turn them arround etc
18:32<SpComb>how does the number of connected clients affect the cpu useage of the openttd process? From what I can see, not very much (in terms of total CPU time, it's pretty clear which openttd process is the one with clients, though)
18:33<Nite>more vehicles/routes mean more cpu more clients merely
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i must say... huge map and daylength 4 is great, you finally get to build a big network using steam engines
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>daylength 32 is kinda overkill...
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19:01<Brianetta>!svn
19:01<Digitalfox>Is the feature daylenght something the developers would like to see in trunk?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>celestar wanted to introduce a similar feature in the gamebalance branch, but he disappeared
19:08[~]Sacro 's daylength patch!
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19:11<Brianetta>!fish
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19:35<Sacro>Brianetta: todays fish is trout a la creme, enjoy your meal.
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20:52<Nite>balancing (rising) of running costs in us set would be great ... balancing bla bla
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20:57<Eddi|zuHause3>Nite: tell that to the author of USSet
21:00<Nite>true
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 21 00:00:42 2007