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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-27

---Logopened Thu Sep 27 00:00:49 2007
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05:43<dihedral>just had a pretty desync :-P#
05:43<dihedral>0.5.3
05:43<dihedral>http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/FP2/autosave9.sav 2 minutes in from that save
05:44<dihedral>i was spectating
05:45<boekabar1>so it's reproducable without doing anything ?
05:46<boekabar1>hm, that was a paradox ;)
05:50<dihedral>i have not tried it :)
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05:53<SmatZ>hello
05:56<dihedral>hi
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05:59<Ammler>SmatZ: How is process with underground?
06:00|-|Name101_ changed nick to N101
06:02<SmatZ>Ammler: I did some progress :) it needs some changes on some places, and I want it to be a nice code...
06:04<Ammler>:)
06:04<Ammler>Is there a hardcoded amount of possible autosaves?
06:05<Ammler>!s/amount/limit/
06:07<SmatZ>Ammler: depends on _patches.max_num_autosaves
06:07<Ammler>yeah, thats 255
06:09<SmatZ>if you have _patches.keep_all_autosave , then autosaves have name in format of standard savegame, and their numebr is unlimited
06:09<Rubidium>s/unlimited/limited by the size of your storage device(s)/
06:09<SmatZ>at least it looks so when looking into openttd.cpp:1020
06:09<hylje>wat are u doin
06:09<hylje>Rubidium: pedant
06:12<dihedral>Rubidium: i never get to see the 'Network-Game synchronisation faile' error message when i get desynced
06:14<Rubidium>what message do you get?
06:16<dihedral>none
06:16<dihedral>i only know because the server says so on the console
06:17<dihedral>i find myself simply back in the main menu
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06:22<Ammler>hmm, is there a problem with autosaves, if you restart the server?
06:22<Ammler>the number is at 255, but it restarted at 0 after 55
06:23<Ammler>(after 53)
06:30<Ammler>_autosave_ctr <-- what kind of variable is that, is "secure" over restart?
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06:34<SmatZ>Ammler: no, it is not initialized anywhere (it is set to 0 after game start, and then it starts counting)
06:35<SmatZ>after each start, it saves to autosave0.sav
06:37<dihedral>Ammler: do you restart the game, or run 'newgame'
06:38<Ammler>just restart the server with loading the "old" save
06:38<Ammler>i.e. after upgrading to a new nightly
06:39<dihedral>ah
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08:08<skidd13>hi
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08:11<MarkSlap>How can I remove a Coal Mine?
08:12<boekabar1>enable the magic bulldozer cheat
08:12<boekabar1>and bulldoze it away
08:12<MarkSlap>Mmkey
08:12<MarkSlap>How do I do that?
08:12<boekabar1>ctrl-alt-(win)-c i think
08:12<boekabar1>maybe shift too
08:12<MarkSlap>Oh, thanks :)
08:13<boekabar1>happy cheating! :P{
08:13<MarkSlap>:P
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08:15<@Belugas>MarkSlap: don't forget to remove the cheat afterward, 'cause even towns will be able to use it
08:15<MarkSlap>I saw that :)
08:15<@Belugas>and you'llbe in for a big surprise ;)
08:16<MarkSlap>;)
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08:19<MarkSlap>I like the "Build in pause"-mode
08:19<MarkSlap>:)
08:19<MarkSlap>Everything is so, quiet
08:20<boekabar1>you muist like the 10 million cash too then :)
08:20<MarkSlap>Haha
08:20<boekabar1>playing the sandbox game :)
08:20<MarkSlap>I've got $23billion already
08:20<MarkSlap>:P
08:21<boekabar1>you clicked that button 2300 times? :)
08:21<MarkSlap>Haha
08:21<MarkSlap>No
08:21<MarkSlap>:P
08:21<MarkSlap>I've played this map for like, ehm, 350 years or so
08:21<MarkSlap>It's pretty overpopulated
08:21<boekabar1>and now that coal mine is in the way?
08:21<MarkSlap>Yes
08:22<boekabar1>time to type resetmap in the console :)
08:22<MarkSlap>World population: 385.614
08:22<MarkSlap>On a 256x256 map
08:22<MarkSlap>^^
08:23<boekabar1>is that much? i have no idea
08:23<MarkSlap>Pretty
08:23<MarkSlap>You can surley push in some more, but it's tight
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08:50<MarkSlap>Mmkey
08:50<MarkSlap>I removed a city, but the name is still there, can I remoce the name? :D
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>only in scenario editor
08:51<MarkSlap>Oh, okey
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09:35<Amixwoktest>ey
09:36<SmatZ>eyeyey! welcome
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09:52<Dradge>hi
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10:11<Nickman>hi all
10:11<hylje>oh hi
10:16<SmatZ>hi
10:17<Dradge>hi
10:23<Nickman>:)
10:24<Dradge>who i got headhackwhen trying understand the Ottd Array map !
10:24<hylje>regarding that when do we get magic map?
10:25<Dradge>magic map ?
10:25<hylje>arbitrary shaped bridges and tunnels
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10:25<hylje>well, mostly arbitrary
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10:27<Dradge>i just want to try develop on way signals :) But now i'm just looking at the code to see the complexity of the thing :)
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10:32<Dradge>but need to update sign, pathfinder, train_cmd, array_map and more i think
10:32<hylje>well then
10:32<hylje>first up
10:32<hylje>detach the stuff from each other
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10:34<Dradge>first i have to look at the code and understand some parts :)
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11:34<Dradge>hylje, maybe i think it will be better for me to develop easier thing for begining :)
11:34<hylje>:P
11:34<hylje>as a matter of fact i'm considering making a train simulator from scratch
11:35<@Bjarni>you want to make an open sourced MSTS?
11:35<@Bjarni>!logs
11:35<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
11:36<hylje>more in the likes of tycoon games
11:37<@Bjarni>I don't know any tycoon games that can qualify as train simulators
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>you mean you want to have people drive through OTTD maps in ego view?
11:37<@Bjarni>ego view :D
11:37<@Bjarni>I think it's called first person view
11:37<hylje>haha
11:37<hylje>you are thinking too specialized
11:38<hylje>i'm talking train simulator as in you have virtual trains and tracks
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>so what is ottd then?
11:38<Dradge>make a simulator and ride in your openTTD networks :D
11:39<Dradge>me crazy :D:D:D
11:39<hylje>:o
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i suggested already...
11:39<Rubidium>has been done before (though kinda buggy)
11:39<@Bjarni>Dradge: that's Eddi|zuHause's ego view XD
11:39<hylje>but basically
11:39<hylje>what ottd does in practice, designed from ground up
11:39<Dradge>i imagine a 3D Engine for openttd
11:40[~]Bjarni imagines a 2D engine for OpenTTD
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11:40<hylje>well Bjarni, wake up
11:41<hylje>now, in 2007, there is a 2d engine for ottd!
11:41<@Bjarni>I didn't say how it should be compared to the current engine
11:41[~]Eddi|zuHause imagines a 1D engine for OpenTTD
11:41<Rubidium>isn't the current engine kind 2.5D?
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>2.epsilon
11:41<hylje>2d which pretends to be 3d
11:42<Dradge>1D = just command line game ??? :D
11:42<@Bjarni>no
11:42<@Bjarni>1D is a line
11:42<hylje>but the line can span multiple lines
11:42<@Bjarni>so it's a 2D screen that's just a single pixel wide
11:42<@Bjarni>or a long line ;)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>the map array is also 1D, so why should the map representation be different?
11:43<@Bjarni>good point
11:43<hylje>the 1D array pretends it's 2D
11:43<hylje>and the 2D map pretends to be 3D
11:43<hylje>gottit?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: one should some time measure the fractal dimension of an ottd map :p
11:49<hylje>fractal maps!
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>like they once did for the british coastline
11:49<@Bjarni>hylje: why would you want to code an OTTD clone?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: for legal reasons :p
11:50<hylje>because its interesting
11:50<Rubidium>but... hylje has already been tainted...
11:50<@Bjarni>hylje has been tainted from before even TT was made
11:50<hylje>haha
11:51<hylje>derivative work to the "tainted" code maybe through the second or third revision
11:52<hylje>my primary reason for the plans are because it's interesting, though :>
11:59<@Bjarni>it's a huge task
11:59<@Bjarni>why not work on OTTD to get your goal?
11:59<hylje>it'd involve
11:59<hylje>1) c++
11:59<hylje>2) redesigning stuff ground u
11:59<hylje>up
12:01<hylje>it could be feasible later on, but now i don't have time to first up learn how C works
12:04<@Bjarni>...
12:05<@Bjarni>can you really code C++ without being able to read C?
12:05<hylje>i can see how the code goes. generating new code is whole another thing
12:06<@Bjarni>if you can read C and write C++, I say you can code in the OpenTTD code
12:06<@Bjarni>it accepts C++ stuff if needed
12:06<hylje>i can't write any c++ i know of either
12:07<hylje>sorry if that was unclear
12:07<@Bjarni>you want to code this without being able to code either C or C++?
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12:08<hylje>it's not like i'm using some point-n-click game maker
12:08<hylje>rather python
12:08<@Bjarni>you remind me of a guy, who once contacted me. He wanted to code a Dune 2 clone, but he was unable to even code a switch case, so he was looking for coders to work with (read: could code his idea)
12:09<hylje>heheh
12:09<@Bjarni>I said maybe if he could find somebody else as well
12:09<hylje>i have a bare-bones mmorpg server ive coded by myself
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12:09<@Bjarni>since everybody said that or no, he never got any yes and the idea stopped at his handwritten ideas
12:10<@Bjarni>which were basically drawings of tank sprites
12:10<hylje>:o
12:11<@Bjarni>his plan didn't even include anything like a game loop or even functionality for internal stuff
12:11<@Bjarni>no structure at all
12:11<hylje>:D
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12:12<@Bjarni>I say that I would be able to code it today, but back then I was able to code pascal and I didn't even know how to code in more than one file (I never reached linking or headers) and my compiler could not handle more than 64k chars in a single file
12:12<hylje>:o
12:12<@Bjarni>since the other people he asked was more or less at the same level...
12:13<@Bjarni>hey, this was even before Dune 2000
12:13<hylje>that stuff is always the same
12:13<hylje>don't go to onrpg.com
12:14<@Bjarni>I guess I could do it today, but back then I was.. not as experienced as I am today
12:14<@Bjarni>I think it was like 10 years ago
12:14<hylje>now you're just being redundant
12:14<@Bjarni>or more
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12:18<hylje>my grand plan with the thing is to have it scale
12:18<hylje>scale a whole lot
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12:23<@Bjarni>now that I think about it, it could be fun to try to make that project now
12:23<@Bjarni>but now the issue is not the skills, but my free time :(
12:23<Rubidium>Bjarni: you don't have time for that ;)
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12:24<@Bjarni>also the time/gain is likely not in favour of this project either
12:24<@Bjarni>Rubidium: I just said so ;)
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12:31<@Bjarni>X Error of failed request: BadAccess (attempt to access private resource denied)
12:31<@Bjarni> Major opcode of failed request: 100 (X_ChangeKeyboardMapping)
12:31<@Bjarni> Serial number of failed request: 8
12:31<@Bjarni> Current serial number in output stream: 13
12:31<@Bjarni>any idea what this means?
12:32<@Bjarni>I get it when I log in using ssh
12:32<@Bjarni>and better yet: how do I make it go away :)
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12:35<Rubidium>install Windows
12:36<Prof_Frink>sudo rm -rf /
12:36<@Bjarni>somehow I think I will be laughed at if I request that uni installs windows on the Sparc server system
12:36<@Bjarni>and I think deleting everything is a bad idea as well
12:36<Prof_Frink>Hit ^L as soon as it appears.
12:41<@Bjarni>heh
12:41<@Bjarni>funny :P
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12:45<Wolf01>hello
12:47<SmatZ>hello
12:47<SmatZ>today I tried to make rendering multithreaded
12:47|-|Osai^2 [~Osai@pD9EB564F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:47<SmatZ>now OTTD uses ~120% of my CPU ^_^
12:47<hylje>:o
12:47<+glx>how is it possible?
12:48<hylje>multithreading
12:48<hylje>a properly multirheaded app will eat up each and every cpu you throw at it
12:48<SmatZ>actually -> second thread does only http://paste.openttd.org/237
12:49<hylje>:o
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12:51<@Bjarni><glx> how is it possible? <-- it depends on the software to display this. Certain systems report 100% as a maxed out CPU, so a dualcore CPU has 200% available
12:52<SmatZ>ah... yes, I have a dualcore CPU, one core runs at 100%, second at 20%
12:52<@Bjarni>bbl
12:52<+glx>ha ok, each core are 50% for me
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13:34<@Bjarni>back
13:38<@Bjarni>the % of each core is purely a software thing. I can get both depending on what software I use to check. It's not really important which one you use as long as you are aware of which system you use
13:38<SmatZ>at least I can see that both cores are used ... and that is good :)
13:39<@Bjarni>agreed
13:39<@Bjarni>but if you disable a core, will it be slower to use threads and how much?
13:40<hylje>multithread is always slower
13:40<hylje>but it scales better
13:40<@Bjarni>and will the 120% actually result in a faster game if you look at the overhead as well
13:40<SmatZ>yes... the question is 'how much'
13:40<SmatZ>the 120% speed was only with maximum zoom-out
13:40<@Bjarni>yeah, that's basically what I'm asking... "how much?" :)
13:40<hylje>my python tycoon game doesn't multithread, it clusters
13:40<SmatZ>with normal zoom-in, it was ~100%...
13:41<SmatZ>can I force a program in Linux to run only on one core?
13:41<hylje>with my current design outline, that is
13:41<@Bjarni>I can at OS level disable a core so the whole system is singlecored
13:41<SmatZ>hylje 8-) looks interesting
13:41<hylje>don't keep your hopes up
13:41<hylje>i don't have any plans to start doing it soon
13:42<Noldo>is the OS able to split single thread on multiple cores
13:42<hylje>but if someone else is interested in my ways, i can write a through spec
13:42<hylje>Noldo: no
13:42[~]Bjarni increase hylje's "hopes dashed" by 95
13:42<SpComb><@pythonUser> threads are stupid
13:42<@Bjarni> <Noldo> is the OS able to split single thread on multiple cores <-- short answer: no
13:42<hylje>long answer: no, with comments
13:42<Noldo>:)
13:42<SmatZ>Noldo: not split, but it can change the core it runs at during program run... resulting in performance problems, when the cores don't share caches
13:43<Noldo>aha
13:43<SpComb>so sometimes when your OS is bored, it'll flip the thread from core to core, just for fun
13:43<hylje>haha
13:43<@Bjarni>long answer: even if you only use single threaded apps, you will still benefit from using more than one core because the OS will split the load of the different apps between the cores
13:43<SpComb>but that's the price you have to pay for having more than one core
13:44<SmatZ>the price I pay for having more cores is the money I pay more :)
13:44<hylje>:p
13:45<@Bjarni>also even singlethreaded apps like OpenTTD can easily result in using more than one thread. On OSX the game opens a thread for the game, one for the video driver and one for the ... hmm is it sounds or music... can't remember
13:45<@Bjarni>this is done because the libraries used for the drivers are multithreaded so the functions the game calls in them are threaded
13:46<hylje>enough of this mac user babble :p
13:46<@Bjarni>I don't know if the game can benefit from it by running anything in parallel though. It could be that only one thread is active at any one time
13:46<@Bjarni>I never tried to max it out to test this
13:47<@Bjarni>and even then I'm not sure that I could get a usable result
13:47<SpComb>http://marttila.de/~terom/stuff/negative-cpu.png <-- or you run something like MySQL
13:47<@Bjarni>hylje: rule #1 on IRC: never tell an op to shut up :P
13:47<hylje>Bjarni: you dont dare to play that card
13:48<@Bjarni>*don't
13:48<hylje>punctuation is for silly people
13:48<@Bjarni>no
13:48<@Bjarni>it's for people, who understands language structure and benefits from it
13:49<hylje>it's only beneficial when there is ambiguousness involved
13:49<@Bjarni>I disagree
13:50<@Bjarni>but I can see that you learned how to use languages, but never reached the level of truly understand linguistic structures
13:51<hylje>haha
13:51<hylje>i'll use the linguistic structures when ima writing an essay
13:51<hylje>but i'm not particularly fond of them when using real time communication
13:51<SpComb>in ur logistical structures writing mah essay
13:51<@Bjarni>"ima" is not a word :P
13:51<hylje>you understood it
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13:52<@Bjarni>but you made me stop at it for a moment so it's harassment of me
13:52<@Bjarni>so you are actually being rude
13:52<@Bjarni>also it makes me think about the sentence rather than the content of the sentence and I presume that you want me to do the latter
13:53<hylje>its all compromises
13:54<hylje>and if you didn't notice, there's a glaring ambiguous ' missing
13:55<@Bjarni>I did
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13:55<@Bjarni>Brianetta: you agree with me, right?
13:57<@Bjarni>heh... looking at top gives me a flashback to the good old days where memory mattered
13:57<@Bjarni>44.7M free
13:58<@Bjarni>now it dropped to 25
13:58<@Bjarni>oh well
13:58<@Bjarni>I kind of knew this would happen when I set the tuner to cache the TV signal in RAM rather than the disk
14:00<@Bjarni>I have low disk activity though
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14:09<SpComb>he left!
14:15<@Bjarni>no he didn't
14:15<@Bjarni>he is just hiding
14:15<@Bjarni>and he is damn good at it
14:16<@Bjarni>he even made it look like a timeout
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15:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11175 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Codechange: sort the NewGRFs by name, making searching a specific NewGRF a lot easier.
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15:46<Sacro>rawr
15:46<Wolf01>'night
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15:48<Sacro>anyone here have office 2007/
15:49<@MiHaMiX>Sacro: yeah, that's 100000
15:50<Sacro>MiHaMiX: eh?
15:51<@MiHaMiX>Sacro: i meant you're meaning the new excel2007 bug
15:51<Sacro>the Hull University Mountineering Club seems to be releasing info in .docx format
15:51<Sacro>and I can't open that
15:51<@MiHaMiX>ahh
15:52<@MiHaMiX>unfortunately i don't have office2007, but maybe there's a downloadable viewer for them?
15:55<Prof_Frink>Sacro: OOXML's an open format, so just unzip it and get the relevant info from the XML
15:55<Sacro>Prof_Frink: the XML is a bugger to read
15:56<@Bjarni>Sacro: it's unstable that they release info in a format you can't read. Sending the data to this channel is not really a solution. You have to figure out how to open it or (maybe unlikely) make them release in a different format
15:56<Sacro>Bjarni: i'm going to post a reply now
15:56<Sacro>to either a) use .doc
15:56<Sacro>or b) JUST USE F'ING HTML OR RTF
15:56<Prof_Frink>b) .pdf c) .txt
15:57<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: you didn't verify that he can read pdf before writing b) :P
15:57<Prof_Frink>d) (which comes before a) really) odt ;)
15:58<SmatZ>I typed this url http://opentd.org/ ... and was scared that ottd is gone! hopefully not, phew :)
15:58<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: There's free pdf readers for pretty much every OS, so it's a fair assumption
15:59<@Bjarni>yeah, but maybe he didn't install any reader
16:00<Ammler>OpenDocument
16:01<@Bjarni>speaking of software issues, I contacted the guy who deals with software installs in the lab today about an issue. The solution: reboot the computer in linux (and then the linux login issue was fixed)
16:01<@Bjarni>but I like this: app fails. Solution get rid of windows and boot in linux and then it just works
16:01<Prof_Frink>I like his style
16:01<@Bjarni>and not only that, it actually turned out to be noteworthy faster in linux
16:02<Prof_Frink>Is he a [ropr BOFH?
16:02<Sacro>Please can you not send me files in .docx format as only one peice of software (Office 2007) can open it, can you either send e-mails using, in order of preference, plain text (txt), HTML, PDF, Office 2003 (doc), or OOo (odf).
16:02<Sacro>anything else?
16:03<@Bjarni><Prof_Frink> I like his style <-- me too. I was actually upset about the fact that I could not log in in linux, but it turned out to be a corrupted settings file in my account and I was told how to quickly bypass it
16:03<Sacro>Ammler: not much point in OpenDocument
16:03<Sacro>tis e-mail
16:03<Sacro>so either txt, or html. or at most, PDF
16:04<Prof_Frink>Sacro: Erm, .png of a screenshot of the document open in WOrd?
16:04<Sacro>Prof_Frink: yes, even that
16:04<@Bjarni>hehe
16:04<Sacro>even if he printed it, photographed it on a wooden table and then mailed that
16:04<@Bjarni>png would work, but jpg is a nono :)
16:05<Prof_Frink>.wav of it being read by Microsoft Sam?
16:05<@Bjarni>wtf is Microsoft Sam?
16:05<Prof_Frink>Windows default text-to-speech voice
16:05<Sacro>Microsoft Bob!
16:05<@Bjarni>ahh
16:06<Tefad>the day microsoft starts making vacuums is the day their products stop sucking.
16:07<@MiHaMiX>good night
16:10<@Bjarni>heh, that was fun
16:11<@Bjarni>I decided to try text to speech (which I really rarely use) and I just picked the last line on IRC that was a decent sentence to test on
16:11<@Bjarni>turned out that Tefad delivered that one
16:11<@Bjarni>so I leard it like 20 times
16:11<@Bjarni>and every time it sounded even more right :P
16:14<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: kismet+festival is good
16:15<Prof_Frink>reads out AP SSIDs
16:16<@Bjarni>?
16:16<@Bjarni>I just have the default OSX voices
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16:22<Sacro>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unicode_characters <- long bit of reading
16:22<@Bjarni>heh, that text to voice can figure out how to say OpenTTD right :D
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16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11176 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Revert (r9867): as it is needed for newgrf callbacks 14B and 14C
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11177 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf_callbacks.h): -Codechange: add support for newgrf callbacks 14B and 14C
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>!openttd commit 9867
16:48<Jango>ciao for now
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16:48<_42_>Commit by belugas :: r9867 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs) (2007-05-18 00:33:47 UTC)
16:48<_42_>-Codechange: Remove data duplication. The exact same values can be found in the industry spec, so take it from there instead.
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>and what exactly do 14b and c do?
16:49<+glx>they can change accepted and produced cargo type for an industry on creation
16:51<+glx>"These callbacks are called when the industry is built, and allow customizing the input and output cargo types dynamically." <-- from TTDP wiki
16:51<Amixwoktest>i think that if highway should be added. it would have to be a new icon or something. it would draw 2x2 on the map etc.
16:51<Amixwoktest>like
16:52<Amixwoktest> //
16:52<Amixwoktest>or
16:52<Amixwoktest> \\
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>why? you could easily have 4 icons for directions (/ up , / down, \ up, \ down)
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>but you will need diagonal roads to avoid sharp turns
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17:10<Amixwoktest>;)
17:10<Amixwoktest>how about intersections?
17:11<Amixwoktest>from 2 lane to 4 lane road etc?
17:11<Amixwoktest>mods have done pretty cool stuff for simcity4 atleast :)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>highways don't usually have intersections, just bridges and onramps
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>for end tiles, that's a little different, yes
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that you have to do choose graphics based on the nabouring tile
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>*neighbour*
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17:36<SmatZ>I did measurements: with threaded rendering on a uniprocessor system, it is ~ 10% faster - on multiprocessor system, it is up to ~10% faster, but only on maximum zoom-out ... no normal zoom, rendering is not bottleneck...
17:36<SmatZ>so rather useless
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17:40<SmatZ>just if anybody would try to do this... I tried
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17:52<@Bjarni>SmatZ: well, 10% is better than nothing
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17:52<@Bjarni>however I rarely zoom out. I resize the window instead or play in fullscreen
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17:53<@Bjarni>but it was worth investigating
17:54<SmatZ>yes, I wanted to try it :)
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17:54<SmatZ>errr... I wrote it wrongly ... on uniprocessor system, it is 10% slower actually
17:55<@Bjarni>that makes more sense
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17:55<SmatZ>it would need to be compile-time option etc. - too much work for little effect
17:55<@Bjarni>both yes and no
17:55<@Bjarni>keep it
17:56<SmatZ>I did svn diff to stero it for following generations :)
17:56<@Bjarni>and we can add it if we make threads somewhere else
17:56<@Bjarni>I mean if we add a 10% in one place and 10% somewhere else and so on, eventually it would matter
17:56<Sacro>hmm
17:56<Sacro>!logs
17:56<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
17:57<SmatZ>it would be nice, but it is hard to find places that can be done in parallel - not to lose multiplayer synchronisation
17:57<@Bjarni>yeah
17:57<SmatZ>maybe tile animation
17:58<@Bjarni>I wondered about vehicle loop every tick, but then I realised that it would be hell to code without causing desyncs
18:00<SmatZ>yes... vehicles interfere with each other, and with structures - so it very depends on in what order are things done - if city builds road before vehicle tries to use it, if train moves and makes green signal this way for other train, or if they are moved in different order
18:01<SmatZ>or what are you talking about?
18:01<@Bjarni>actually I was thinking of splitting out ships from all other vehicle types
18:01<@Bjarni>and the same with aircraft
18:01<@Bjarni>but then I started to think "hey, what about station loading"
18:02<@Bjarni>ships will not interfere with any other vehicle types anywhere else
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18:03<SmatZ>:-( also, VehicleID could be different when something is replaced/sold... and then newly replaced aircraft could have different VehicleID
18:04<@Bjarni>that's not an issue
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18:05<SmatZ>no?
18:05<@Bjarni>you see, because it used to be a problem I changed autoreplace to deal with vehicles after the vehicle loop and hence after the threads would have rejoined
18:05<SmatZ>aha
18:06<@Bjarni>so during the actual loop though all vehicles, crashed vehicles can be removed, but no new vehicles can appear
18:07<SmatZ>so it is rather good - if "station ticks" were done before vehicle ticks (where vehicles wouldn't load/unload), it could work
18:07<@Bjarni>yeah
18:09<@Bjarni>there is an issue with running costs though. All 3 threads shouldn't access the player money all the time and wait for each other here
18:09<@Bjarni>it's a minor issue though and it can be dealt with
18:10<SmatZ>yes
18:11<SmatZ>it would also (maybe) need to solve Random() for aircraft crash at airport and Random() for vehicle with no orders or so
18:11<SmatZ>if there is such problem
18:12<@Bjarni>if I recall correctly, there is no need to check cash in the loop. We can't run out of money as the only thing is running cost (needs to be verified!) and cash would just go into negative if needed
18:12<@Bjarni>uhhh... random
18:12<@Bjarni>didn't think of that
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18:16<SmatZ>you could use different random() for aircrafts and different for other vehicles
18:16<SmatZ>so they won't interfere
18:18<@Bjarni>maybe
18:18<@Bjarni>but looking at the random function... I'm lost there
18:18<@Bjarni>I usually code stuff that should be consistent, not random
18:18<@Bjarni>in fact I never code anything random
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18:19<@Bjarni>if you can autoreplace something, then you can always do it if it's buildable, you have money and so on... the replace is also always the same. No need for any randomness here
18:19<SmatZ>:-)
18:21<SmatZ>'randomness' is not a good word for that what happens in the algorithm
18:21<SmatZ>you can everytime say what will be the next 'random' number if you know the internal state... I dont know how many bits you need, maybe 64, 128...
18:21<SmatZ>so it is defined
18:21<SmatZ>but giving much broader state space
18:22<@Bjarni>yeah, it can't be pure random as pure random would cause desyncs
18:22<SmatZ>for everything using random()
18:22<SmatZ>yes
18:22<SmatZ>I am trying to cheer you up :)
18:22<@Bjarni>imagine getting breakdowns in sync if the random was 100% random
18:22<SmatZ>:-)
18:23<SmatZ>then random() would need to be distributed from the server...
18:23<@Bjarni>causing a whole lot more data to be transmitted
18:24<SmatZ>yes
18:25<@Bjarni>I really don't get the random number generator
18:25<@Bjarni>not really any comments
18:25<@Bjarni>and it looks like random code to me :P
18:26<SmatZ>:-D
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18:27<SmatZ> _random_seeds[0][0] = s + ROR(t ^ 0x1234567F, 7) + 1;
18:27<SmatZ>do you mean this code?
18:27<@Bjarni>mersenne.cpp
18:27<@Bjarni>btw what name is that anyway?
18:28<SmatZ>ah... it looks a bit complicated, yes :)
18:29<SmatZ>Mersenne? I think it is a French name, a mathematic
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>from the Mersenne Primes
18:29<@Bjarni>ahh
18:30<SmatZ>yes... but not likely that he was interested only in primes
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>which are prime numbers of the form 2^n-1
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>where you can prove that n must be a prime number itself
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: no, but i think the file is about those
18:31<SmatZ>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>"Its name derives from the fact that period length is chosen to be a Mersenne prime."
18:33<SmatZ>yes yes, I read that :)
18:34<@Bjarni>yeah, we can read
18:34<@Bjarni>if we couldn't, then we wouldn't benefit from you copy pasting :P
18:34<SmatZ>:-)
18:34<@Bjarni>in fact, I presume that everybody in here can read
18:35<Sacro>i can't :(
18:35<@Bjarni>oh well
18:35<@Bjarni>there is always an exception or two
18:35<SmatZ>:-D
18:38<@Bjarni>maybe I should give it a go
18:39<@Bjarni>I mean I can always makes this thing threaded and then try to fix the syncronisation issue
18:39[~]Sacro learns norwegian
18:39<@Bjarni>why???
18:39<Sacro>so i can read lego instructions nativly
18:39<SmatZ>it may be interesting to try that - if you have enough time - try it! :)
18:40<@Bjarni>err
18:40<@Bjarni>the native language of lego is Danish
18:40<SmatZ>:-)
18:40<Sacro>dutch?
18:40|-|Name101 changed nick to N101
18:41<SmatZ>Sacro: /whois Bjarni
18:41<Sacro>he used to be .nl
18:41<@Bjarni>Sacro will never learn it
18:41<Sacro>now he is .dk
18:41<Sacro>i think he is confused/lost
18:41<SmatZ>:-D
18:41<@Bjarni>I think the fact that I translated some Dutch for him once made his confusion complete
18:42<@Bjarni>Sacro: wanna hear something funny?
18:43<Sacro>always
18:43<@Bjarni>my domain name in whois haven't changed since I found OpenTTD
18:43<@Bjarni>in fact it was stable from even before I found out what IRC is
18:44<@Bjarni>now I know it's a place of insane perverts and freaks
18:44<@Bjarni>and sometimes even normal people
18:46<SmatZ>Internet is full of it
18:46<SmatZ>perverts and freaks...
18:49<@Bjarni>IRC is part of the internet
18:50<SmatZ>yes, and chat rooms, image boards, message boards, news, ...
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>"what do you call a bunch of nerds discussing on the internet?" - "the internet."
18:52<SmatZ>:-)
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19:25<@Bjarni>goodnight
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19:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11178 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: don't check newgrf callback 22 in scenario editor
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21:07<mattt_>wow.. big channel
21:08<mattt_>is it possible to get an estimate for building a tunnel?
21:08<Eddi|zuHause2>shift+click
21:08<mattt_>awesome, thanks :)
21:08<Eddi|zuHause2>works with everything that has a cost
21:08<mattt_>cool
21:09<Eddi|zuHause2>since TT original ;)
21:09<mattt_>oh, haha
21:09<mattt_>i was lookin on the wiki
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 28 00:00:44 2007