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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-28

---Logopened Fri Sep 28 00:00:44 2007
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02:15<dihedral>good morning ladies :-)
02:16<boekabar1>hey honey
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02:29[~]dihedral slaps boekabar1
02:30<dihedral>where were you last night?
02:30[~]dihedral laughs his head off
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02:34<boekabart>""Onze pientere paarse held Purno de Purno is weer terug!""
02:40<boekabart>our smart purple hero Purno!
02:41<boekabart>I quoted the first or second google hit on purno de purno!
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02:49<dihedral>Rubidium: will there be any chance of getting /trunk to stop drawing everything, and being more of a dedicated server?
02:50<dihedral>or does it _have_ to draw everything
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02:51<Rubidium>dihedral: what the F are you talking about?
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02:51<boekabart>dihedral: I thought actually that with the changes in rendering .... the dedicated server doesn't draw everything anymore
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02:53<Rubidium>it's already using the null blitter
02:53<dihedral>oh - sorry
02:54<dihedral>must have not read as many svn log entries as i should have... :-P
02:54<boekabart>i just needs the sprites for the sizes of them (for collision detection of trains IIRC)
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02:54[~]dihedral greets Ammler
02:55<Ammler>morning dihedral :)
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03:44<SmatZ>bye bye...
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04:36<boekabart>why are there 2 ways to check whether a vehicle(train) is the Front Engine: IsFrontEngine(v) (checks HASBIT(v->subtype, Train_Front)) and, !v->Previous(). Are/should they always be the same ?
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04:40<hylje>logically yes
04:41<hylje>the other depends on a property while other depends on relation
04:41<boekabart>I'd say :)
04:41<boekabart>unless we want trains to reverse in the future?
04:41<boekabart>as in - without moving the engine to the front
04:42<hylje>depends on the way we do it
04:42<boekabart>well the real engine will lose on of those 2 properties, however we do it
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04:44<hylje>i'd suppose the train_front bit is the one always pointing where the train goes
04:44<hylje>reversing the actual order is too prone for bugs and headache
04:45<hylje>because 1) the train looks the same, it just goes to another direction
04:45<boekabart>not my plan - i just noticed there were the 2 ways
04:45<hylje>2) cargo in wagons stays intact
04:45<boekabart>maybe a dev cares to answer if ...
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04:52<frosch123>boekabart: Only a guess, but what is with train consists without a engine inside a depot. I would expect them not to have a front engine.
04:53<boekabart>frosch123: wow, you are good
04:53<dihedral>frosch123: then it aint a train, is just a concaternation of waggons
04:53<boekabart>And yes, Front Engine _probably_ also is the one deciding how all the wagons look and so
04:54<boekabart>dihedral: still, it's a linked list of vehicles
04:54<dihedral>was just kidding boekabart
04:54<boekabart>good one, frosch123
04:55<hylje>if front engine decides how the wagons look
04:55<hylje>reversing in place might not work without wagons changing looks
04:57<boekabart>well, hylje, as long as it stays clear which is the 'master engine'
04:58<boekabart>which is not per se the front of the moving train
04:58<hylje>third property? :>
04:58<hylje>front engine
04:58<hylje>really front engine
04:58<boekabart>no - I guess if you'd change the order of the vehicles (inverse the linked list), that might work
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07:37<dihedral>anybody here know something about autopilot and irc?
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08:23<Digitalfox>Good afternoon everybody :)
08:24<Digitalfox>I was thinking of updating the developers page on the wiki, but since it may be a controversial update, i believe it's better to discuss it first.. So i will ask:
08:24<Digitalfox>- Should Tron be placed on retired developers?
08:24<boekabart>@seen Tron
08:24<@DorpsGek>boekabart: Tron was last seen in #openttd 15 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 9 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Tron> let me revert it
08:24<ln->and that was not *the* Tron
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08:25<boekabart>!seen Tron
08:25<_42_>boekabart, Tron ( was last seen parting #openttd 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours 19 minutes ago (11.09. 16:05), after spending 2 seconds there.
08:25<Digitalfox>- Should Truelight be moved to main developers ?
08:25<Digitalfox>- Should Darkvater be moved to main developers?
08:25<Digitalfox>* retired developers
08:25<ln->Digitalfox: Sure, you can move them to retired devs.
08:25<hylje>dv hasnt been around for quite some time
08:27<Digitalfox>- And should ludde be moved to retired developers ( he is the father of the project, but... )
08:27<Digitalfox>I would to hear some dev feedback, so the update is something the maiority agrees :)
08:27<boekabart>Digitalfox: You can check their activity on<nick>
08:28<Digitalfox>boekabart: I know, but sometimes people get angry because they think people forgot them..
08:28<Digitalfox>So i want to make sure theres no angry people with the update
08:29<Digitalfox>So i will move darkvater to retired developers +tron and ludde, and move truelight to active developers.. Any one disagrees?
08:34<@Belugas>please, Digitalfox, let us decide who has to be declared as retired or not ;)
08:35<Digitalfox>ok belugas, that's why i asked in channel and not update it :)
08:35<Digitalfox>It's a controversial decision
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08:36<Digitalfox>And i don't want to start ant kinf of war, between any developers :)
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08:36<@Belugas>well... that is basically the idea, yeah :)
08:36<@Belugas>thanks for your understanding :)
08:37<Digitalfox>no problem Belugas :)
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09:09<Maedhros>(sfw, strangely enough)
09:11<boekabart> We're welcoming the SLUT into the neighborhood :)
09:17<@Belugas>anyone knows what an ssl_get_error of 2 means?
09:18<@Belugas>after a call of ssl_connect, should I add
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09:19<Maedhros>well, it seems to be SSL_ERROR_WANT_READ ( ), but the explanation doesn't mean much to me
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09:20<@Belugas>that's waht i though too, but since i only have a simple number, i was not sure
09:20<@Belugas>thanks Maedhros
09:21<Maedhros>np. is this work@work stuff?
09:21<@Belugas>yeah :(
09:21<@Belugas>log checking for errors
09:21<@Belugas>a lot of those
09:22<@Belugas>looks like the network was not holding up, or the host was really busy. We're trying to find ou
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09:31[~]dihedral greets Belugas
09:37<fjb>While playing ChrisIN the last days (why are days that short?) I got some new ideas about route markers.
09:38[~]Belugas waves at dihedral
09:38<fjb>I like the idea behind them, but I think they could be far more usefull and flexible.
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09:40<fjb>Now every train gets a color assigned. And the route marker tells the pathfinder a penalty when it has the matching color.
09:42<fjb>Why use colors in the first place and not use other properties of the train, like maximum speed or lenght inttead?
09:43<XeryusTC>that's where you come in and make programable signals like in TTDP
09:43<boekabart>those are finished in TTDP?
09:44<fjb>How do they work? I use OpenTTD on FreeBSD, so no chance to try out TTDP.
09:44<boekabart>boot DOS and try :)
09:45<Maedhros>doesn't wine work with freebsd?
09:45<fjb>And I just don't want signals, that tell an train "no", I think about "penalty markers".
09:45<boekabart>i'm not sure whether you want that, really
09:45<boekabart>you either want a train to use a track or not
09:45<fjb>Wine kind of works, but I gave up on It 2 years ago. Why using whine, when there is OpenTTD? :-)
09:46<boekabart>fjb: Why would you want the train to use the track it shouldn't .. sometimes?
09:47<fjb>It can be usefull at stations, when you want to kind of sort trains at the platforms, but want a kind of fallback if all platforms of a special kind are used, but others are free.
09:49<fjb>Maybe two short trains sometimes visit an station with several long an one short platform. The short trains should use the short platform, but if both arrive at the same time, one of them should take a long platform instead.
09:51<fjb>You could send freigttrains another way uphill depending on how much load they carry.
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09:51<fjb>There are many things you could do with that kind of markers.
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09:53<skidd13>Any dev opinions to FS921 (except wrong savegame bump)? Rubidium?
09:55<fjb>Sure you can sort trains at big stations using wy points. But sometimes you have no room to build a way point. And that markers would just introduce another kind of flexibility.
09:55<boekabart>where do you put the marker if there's no room for a waypoint?
09:57<fjb>The routemarkers can be on the same tile as a signal.
09:57<boekabart>oh right... :)
09:57<fjb>The "penalty markers" could be there, too. (Instead of the routemarkers, they would be obsolete).
09:58<fjb>Maybe the could be on the same tile as a switch. I don't know, didn't read enough of the code yet.
09:59<fjb>And the should have a sprite that doesn't look like an shugar mushroom.
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10:17<@Belugas>skidd13: uint avail_buttons = 0x7F; ///< bin:01111111 maybe clearer and thus not requiring the comment if it was a value frmo the enum TownActions, no?
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10:17<@Belugas>i like the enum :)
10:17<@Belugas>it helos
10:18<Nickman>hi ;)
10:18<skidd13>Ah lol help
10:19<skidd13>Belugas: So convert the enum to a binary enum?
10:21<@Belugas>isn't it already the case?
10:21<@Belugas>yeah... helps
10:22<@Belugas>TACT_ADVERTISE_SMALL = bit 1
10:22<@Belugas>TACT_BRIBE = bit 7
10:22<@Belugas>no... silly me
10:22<skidd13>nope the enum specify's the bit positions not the bit itself
10:22<@Belugas>yeah. just figured it out :)
10:23<skidd13>But I like the idea of a bit enum. So I can get rid of the macros.
10:23<@Belugas>So it would be a case of avail_buttons & TACT_BRIBE instead of a HASBIT
10:23<@Belugas>ok, never mind
10:23<@Belugas>but then...
10:24<skidd13>what then?
10:24<@Belugas>never mind.
10:24<@Belugas>i'm not really there
10:24<@Belugas>i like th bit nume too
10:24<@Belugas>and i 'me resuming work@work
10:25<skidd13>Have fun @work
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10:29<Amix>Chatting using my E90
10:33<@Belugas>typing using my keyboard :D
10:36<fjb>E90? Deutsche Reichsbahn?
10:39|-|glx|away changed nick to glx
10:39<+glx>no Nokia E90
10:41<fjb>Oh, I thougt it would be something cool. :-)
10:43<hylje>it is
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10:48<Amix>I like E90. Nice device
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10:53<fjb>But how much cargo can you transport using it? And how fast does it go uphill? :-)
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11:02<skidd13>fjb: I'd say load limit is reached with ~40 Kg and the uphill speed depends on the pitch-speed of the owner :D
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11:05<gfldex>fjb, look at if you want to know how fast it is going
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11:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11179 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix [FS#1262] (r11175): compilation with MSVC was broken
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11:07<dihedral>Signal blocks streach over other peoples tracks?
11:09<@Bjarni>sure, why not? :)
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11:14<@Bjarni>known issue
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11:14<Dradge>i have a question : is there objectives for the OpenTTD 1.0 ??? or
11:14<dihedral>fix in sight?
11:14<@Bjarni>dihedral: not really
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11:15<@Bjarni>Dradge: 1.0 is far into the future.... Let's get to 0.6.0 first ;)
11:15<Dradge>ok nothing planned :)
11:17<@Bjarni>history tells us not to plan that far into the future because we will not stick to the plan
11:17<@Bjarni>we know what we wants to code, but we haven't set time and release number on the tasks
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11:18<Dradge>oh the 0.6's roadmap is really nice and some features were finished :)
11:18<dihedral>Bjarni: does that bug exist in /trunk too? or has it been resolved there?
11:19<@Bjarni>well, we didn't even stick to the roadmap for 0.5.0, so why should we do it for 0.6.0?
11:19<@Bjarni>dihedral: AFAIK it's also present in the trunk
11:19<hylje>lol what
11:19<Dradge>lol Bjarni
11:20<@Bjarni><hylje> lol what <-- in short: read the roadmap as a guideline rather than the actual plan that everybody will stick to
11:21<@Bjarni>bbl dinner
11:23<Amix>I am at the anime filmclub now
11:23<hylje>lawl anime
11:23<Amix>Fjb: its not heavy ;)
11:25<Amix>Hylje: ?
11:26<Dradge>humm it so dangerous to play OpenTTD with the nigthly version ???
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11:28<fjb>Won't the signal bug evetually be fixed when the new PBS system is in place?
11:29<fjb>Dradge: I didn't encouter any problems using nightly builds.
11:29<Dradge>nice :)
11:29<fjb>I wish there would be a version of OpenTTD that would not requiere the files from the original game...
11:31<@Belugas>[12:22] <@Bjarni> well, we didn't even stick to the roadmap for 0.5.0, so why should we do it for 0.6.0? <---the only remaining unreleased part of 0.6 is newindustries. At least, 0.6 will be waht was planned it to be :)
11:31<hylje>bjarni doesn't want that
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11:42<@Belugas>i would not say that. Bjarni has other priorities, that's all
11:42<@Belugas>hey Wolf01
11:43<Wolf01>hi Belugas :D
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11:54<Wolf01>Rubidium, can i ask you how did you fixed the problem with the station size widgets?
11:57<@Bjarni>I didn't say that I didn't want it
11:57<skidd13>Belugas: I changed the enum to a bit enum. Better?
11:58<@Bjarni>but if we should stick to the roadmap, we wouldn't add anything that's not in the roadmap... I'm pretty sure we added a whole lot of stuff that nobody thought of when the roadmap was made
11:59<hylje>the roadmaps are minimum
11:59<hylje>besides, the trunk is not restrained by any roadmaps
11:59<@Bjarni>I wouldn't rule out 0.7.0 features in 0.6.0 either
11:59<Rubidium>Wolf01: I didn't fix anything
11:59<Wolf01>on my system it works
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12:01<@Bjarni><Amix> I am at the anime filmclub now <-- cool... are you making a survey of what to broadcast?
12:02<fjb>What brings newindustries? Does it allow custom industries via GRFs? Or is there more about it?
12:02<ln->anime lähtee lapsesta hakkaamalla
12:02<+glx>custom industries, modification of standard industries properties, ...
12:03<Amix>No. In 2008 bjarni
12:03<+glx>it is something like newhouses but for industries
12:03<@Bjarni>Amix: you are making a survey in 2008?
12:03<Amix>In 2008 i will travel a lot yes
12:04<Amix>Getting agreements etc
12:04<fjb>Does it interfere with the passenger destination thing that e few people are working on?
12:04<@Bjarni>I meant a survey on what people like so you know what to aim at when you travel
12:04<Amix>Tv isnt as free as torrent downloads you know
12:04<@Bjarni>torrents are free?
12:04<Amix>Good idea
12:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11180 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r11175): crash on load when you don't have any NewGRFs. More interesting is: who plays without them ;)
12:05<@Bjarni>sounds too good to be true
12:05<@Bjarni>making a proper survey takes longer than "brb" :P
12:08<fjb>I couldn't play without NewGRFs anymore... :-)
12:08<@Bjarni>I can
12:09<@Bjarni>but only in temperate
12:09<Maedhros>i haven't been able to ever since i discovered openttd :)
12:09<fjb>The DBsetXL reminds me on my Märklin model railway.
12:09<@Bjarni>that's not the same as I do it... I just said that I can
12:09<@Bjarni>fjb: heh... somehow it doesn't remind me of mine
12:10<fjb>And the long vehicles make road vehicles useful.
12:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11181 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf_callbacks.h): -Codechange: add support for newgrf callback 14A (Belugas)
12:10<dihedral>the way industries increase and decrease production, that is a completely by chance calculation right?
12:10<dihedral>do all clients perform this calculation or only the server, which then informs the clients of the changes?
12:12<Progman>dihedral: as all clients and the server runs in sync all do the same chance calculation and so increase/decrease the production
12:12<Rubidium>dihedral: wrong, though you're not far from it. And the client does the calculations in exactly the same way as the rest of the game state of OTTD is calculated.
12:13<dihedral>shame :) i was hoping for the server to be doing all the calculations, and the clients being informed :-P
12:14<hylje>less cpu use
12:14<hylje>moar network traffic
12:14<Rubidium>'cause dihedral wants to overload people's internet connections
12:14<dihedral>network traffic aint a big deal...
12:14<Rubidium>dihedral: it isn't?
12:14<dihedral>well - within a certain boundary
12:15<dihedral>but looking at games, ottd is not the most hungry (bw wise) is it now
12:15<Rubidium>more than 20 kb/s per client makes internet play absolutely useless for "the general" public as their home DSL won't take it
12:15<dihedral>*other games
12:15<hylje>a client needs to know only about global stuff and stuff one explicitly needs
12:15<hylje>not about the state of the whole game all the time
12:15<Rubidium>hylje: like... the WHOLE map for the smallmap_gui
12:16<Rubidium>or all vehicles for the vehicle lists
12:16<hylje>vehicle lists can be requested at runtime
12:16<hylje>minimap can be simplified server-side
12:16<hylje>or synced every, say, 5, seconds
12:16<Rubidium>that'd suck
12:16<hylje>compromises, all compromises
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12:17<hylje>as it stands very large games are decided by the least powerful machine involved
12:17<dihedral>thankfully openttd does not require a whopping huge 3d card :-)
12:18<Rubidium>any idea how much information needs to be send to the clients to render a since frame of the game?
12:18<hylje>really depends
12:19<dihedral>Rubidium: i dont, but i believe you are about to tell me
12:19<hylje>the server would have to send information about vehicle state when necessary
12:19<Rubidium>I don't neither, but it I can imagine it is quite a lot
12:19<Rubidium>hylje: it has to send *all* changes happening within the viewports
12:19<hylje>as it stands
12:20[~]dihedral simply smiles and nods
12:20<Rubidium>how would you not send all changes and keep in sync?
12:20<@Bjarni>we have a working code... why should we even talk about changing it?
12:20<hylje>the client can assume things. partially work like it does now, but with no knowledge of the world around the general vicinity
12:21<hylje>Bjarni: design can and should be talked about
12:21<@Bjarni>yeah but....
12:21<Rubidium>and then vehicle lists taking several seconds to download, which would completely freeze up the game on client side as it basically can't draw anything new until the list is downloaded
12:21<dihedral>Bjarni: i was not talking about changing it - i was asking how it worked :-)
12:21<@Bjarni>to something we know would need a whole lot more bandwidth?
12:21<hylje>the server lets the client know of vehicle state, then the client can run pathfinder on it as usual
12:21<hylje>vehicle lists can work asynchronously
12:22<dihedral>lets get 0.6 ready first, and by 'us' i mean Belugas :-D
12:22<Rubidium>hylje: you can't send other data from the server to the client when it's sending you the vehicle list
12:22<Rubidium>*or* do you want to open a new TCP connection for each request?
12:22<Maedhros>no pressure, Belugas :p
12:23<hylje>Rubidium: it's not like the vehicle list has to be delivered as a whole package
12:23<dihedral>hylje: just smile and nod
12:23<dihedral>and be happy you can play
12:23<Rubidium>oh, you want to complicate the client even more?
12:23<Rubidium>and the server
12:23<Rubidium>as you need to do package scheduling
12:24<hylje>its all compromises
12:24<dihedral>anybody here good at working with autopilot's tcl?
12:24<dihedral>aim: kick every player named 'Player'
12:25<Rubidium>dihedral: Brianetta?
12:25<dihedral>he aint around atm :-P
12:25<hylje>dihedral: i like to think about design.
12:25[~]Belugas does not feel any pressure, at least coming out of the irc window :P
12:26<@Bjarni>we can change that :P
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12:27<hylje>the pascal coder..
12:27<@Belugas>Delphi, if you don't mind ;)
12:27<@Bjarni>same thing :P
12:27<@Belugas>Bjarni... don't try :)
12:27<Rubidium>Bjarni: yeah, objc and c++ are the same too
12:27[~]dihedral thinks Bjarni was a little quicker than Belugas
12:27<@Belugas>like... c is same thing as c==??
12:28<dihedral>c==? never heard of that :-)
12:28<@Bjarni>it's related to C-
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12:29<dihedral>back to work :-)
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12:31<dihedral>anyhow - patch option, allow_nick_Player
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12:33<Amixwoktest>i want to find a person with understands economy stuff ;)
12:33<Amixwoktest>will be looking for one that can handle bussines stuf
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12:38<@Bjarni>you mean a responsible person?
12:38<@Bjarni>and you are asking on IRC???
12:38<Amixwoktest>just searching for someone
12:38<@Bjarni>I'm responsible enough not to take up an offer like that from a guy whom I have only seen on IRC
12:39<Amixwoktest>thing is that i need a person which dosent mind not getting paid until sometime next year
12:39<Amixwoktest>and thats hard to find
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12:40<@Bjarni>no, I can't help you there
12:41<@Bjarni>all the financial geniuses that I know are in well paid jobs (go figure)
12:41<Dradge>humm, is there an autodownload feature for newgrf used on servers ?
12:41<+glx>Dradge: no and there won't never be one
12:42<Dradge>oh why ?
12:42<Dradge>for security ?
12:42<fjb>Can anybody tell me how to find my raod vehicle depot in a big city? :-/
12:42<DaleStan>Because the licenses of many newgrfs don't permit redistribution.
12:44<ln->are there famous scifi (or other interesting genre) authors who write novels in german?
12:44<hylje>no. germans dont write novels.
12:44<+glx>fjb: play with transparency options
12:44<@Bjarni>if you want to write a novel, you write it in a language that the readers understand
12:45<fjb>Hey germans do write novels...
12:45<@Bjarni>never heard of any of them
12:45<Dradge>fjb : get a road vehicule and send it to the depot. Maybe it will go in the lost depot :)
12:45<@Bjarni>I thought it was all Kraftwerk and stuff like that
12:45<fjb>glx: How do I find a transparent depot?
12:46<@Bjarni>fjb: you don't
12:46<@Bjarni>you make other stuff transparent
12:46<Amixwoktest>and helga
12:46<Amixwoktest>Hans und Helga
12:46<+glx>fjb: but only available in trunk
12:47<fjb>But the depot becomes transparent too.
12:47<+glx>in trunk you can select what is transparent and what is not
12:47<fjb>Ah, thank you, I found it.
12:52<Amixwoktest>i love the tramsystem in openttd
12:52<Amixwoktest>way better than in locomotion :=)
12:53<Amixwoktest>trams and highway ;)
12:54<hylje>railroad crossing
12:54<Amixwoktest>hylje: yea
12:55<Amixwoktest>dont run in 130 there when a train goes i tell ya
12:55<fjb>Are articulated road vehicles working?
12:55<hylje>beware of trucks colliding with trains
12:55<hylje>Amixwoktest: how amazingly arbitrary tram lines
12:56<Maedhros>fjb: yes (in the nightlies)
12:56<fjb>I have to try it then.
12:56<Amixwoktest>hylje: arbitrary?
12:56<hylje>tunnel with no reason at all
12:57<fjb>The railroad crossings are a bit stupid. They should stop the road traffic earlier.
12:57<fjb>Hm, how do you make the roads one way?
12:58<Amixwoktest>holding ctrl
12:58<Amixwoktest>and click
12:58<Amixwoktest>in nightly that is
12:59<fjb>Amixwoktest: Your world looks a bit deserted. :-)
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13:00<fjb>Thank you, that is a really cool feature. I have to build an atobahn. :-)
13:01<AmixfX>if you have both buses and trucks
13:01<AmixfX>they bypas each other etc
13:01<fjb>I have both.
13:01<AmixfX>pretty nice
13:02<skidd13>good night
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13:03<AmixfX>fjb: whats so good with trams, is that they can run both on street and seperate
13:04<AmixfX>this is how trams looks like in Locomotion
13:05<AmixfX>this is how it looks in OpenTTD
13:05|-|dihedral changed nick to dihedral|away
13:06<AmixfX>trams taking goods
13:06<AmixfX>goods trams are nice thing between train and trucks
13:07<fjb>Locomotion look far more toy like.
13:08<fjb>I like trams. I have difficulties to get the passengers out of the big cities.
13:08<fjb>But I'm still new to TTD
13:08<AmixfX>same here
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13:17<fjb>What is the usefullst tram set?
13:17<fjb>most useful
13:18<AmixfX>i am using Generic tram set
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13:20<AmixfX>fjb: i will be watching The 4400 and Stargate Atlantis on tv now
13:20<AmixfX>but after that
13:20<fjb>I found the generic tram set and the german tram set. The german trams look better, but there are onnly three trams, no modern.
13:20<AmixfX>we could try a network play with trams etc
13:21<fjb>Have fun.
13:21<AmixfX>if you want
13:21<fjb>Today is my fathers birthday, else it would be a good idea.
13:21<AmixfX>or sunday
13:21<AmixfX>i will be here ;)
13:23<fjb>Ok, I never did a OpenTTD network play before. The only one of my friends who likes games like this doesn't play it because it needs the file from the originla TTD.
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13:40<Maedhros>oh dear god. 60 mile tailbacks...
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13:50<dihedral|away>nice Maedhros
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14:05[~]fjb is away: I'm not here.
14:07<Rubidium>a very useful and paradoxial message...
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14:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11182 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix [FS#1261] (r11174): bounding boxes caused crashes when zoomed out. Patch by SmatZ.
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14:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11183 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1249]: airports do not need to care about overflying aircraf when removing them, because if they were not in the "flying" state it can't be removed anyway.
14:42<MarkSlap>Shit :D
14:42<MarkSlap>19815 crates of good
14:42<MarkSlap>From a single oil raffinery
14:42<hylje>good stuff
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14:42<hylje>that's what happens when you transport less good stuff
14:43<MarkSlap>How do you mean? :P
14:44<hylje>oil is transported into refinery
14:44<MarkSlap>Ja genau
14:44<MarkSlap>But I don't see a problem with that? :P
14:44<MarkSlap>It's going up
14:45<MarkSlap>21090 crates
14:45<hylje>you just have a lot of undelivered goods
14:45<MarkSlap>I don't have any space for goods-trains
14:46<MarkSlap>It's tight already :P
14:46<hylje>screenshot or you're lying
14:46<MarkSlap>A minute
14:48<Prof_Frink>MarkSlap: If there's no space for trains, build some lorry bays
14:48<MarkSlap>Prof_Frink, smart :D
14:49<MarkSlap>hylje, up to the left on the piture
14:49<hylje>there's plenty of space around ther
14:49<Rubidium>there's more than enough space for more trains
14:49<MarkSlap>Not on the tracks
14:49<Rubidium>well, double them then
14:50<MarkSlap>There are not any space on the tracks to the other way
14:50<MarkSlap>I dont like to take the goods :P
14:50<MarkSlap>And usally don't do that either :P
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14:51<Prof_Frink>Egads, that's an ugly setup
14:51<MarkSlap>What? :P
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14:55<MarkSlap>Prof_Frink, what is an ugly setup and why? :P
14:55<Prof_Frink>Mmm, pi...
14:57<Prof_Frink>MarkSlap: You couls probably get equal or higher throughput with much shorter trains
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14:57<MarkSlap>Sure, but then it would be to much oil on the other end
14:57<Rubidium>MarkSlap: 2.71..........
14:57<MarkSlap>I think this is too short trains.
14:58<MarkSlap>And with the trains it self it's 105 cargos long
14:58<Hendikins>That setup is awful.
14:59<Prof_Frink>MarkSlap: Save, upload and I'll see what I can do
14:59<Hendikins>Normal length trains would be much more sensible for that.
14:59<MarkSlap>Prof_Frink, why?
14:59<MarkSlap>Btw, this is just a playgame
14:59<Hendikins>And I'd probably quad track it if a lot of normal length trains were needed
14:59<MarkSlap>I'm usally more serious.
15:00<Rubidium>hmm, MarkSlap doesn't seem to know his famous transcendental numbers
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15:00<MarkSlap>Rubidium :o
15:00<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Holy freakin' shit
15:00[~]Hendikins normally quad tracks with a lot of overtaking opportunities
15:00<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: He should know pi up ti 1M
15:00<Hendikins>(On high traffic routes)
15:00<MarkSlap>Hendikins, I don't like those, just think it slows my trains down
15:01<Prof_Frink>'cause I got the tail end of it from his websitr ;)
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15:01<Hendikins>MarkSlap: Why? If it doesn't need to overtake a train that is say, broken down, it won't be any slower than dual track.
15:01<MarkSlap>I never play with brokedowns
15:02<Hendikins>I'm using breakdowns as the most common example, and you should.
15:02<Prof_Frink>Anyway, if we had the scenario we could see who's right :p
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15:04<MarkSlap>You should know this maybe, I've "cheated" a bit on this save, just to see some thing that I wanted to know
15:05<MarkSlap>And that's why I'm playing desert and everything
15:06<MarkSlap>Here you go
15:07<MarkSlap>Awh, god
15:07<MarkSlap>That didn't word well either
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15:12<MarkSlap>Prof_Frink, how's it goin?
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15:53<Prof_Frink>It's going "I miss PBS"
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16:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11184 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: cleanup the code related to backup orders.
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16:24<@Bjarni>we try something new once in a while
16:24<@Bjarni> <-- I was in a car like this tonight
16:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11185 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp industry_map.h): -Codechange: prepare some more code for the introduction of NewIndustries. Patch by Belugas.
16:25<@Bjarni>I didn't really like it though
16:25<@Bjarni>and now you can flame me for not liking it :P
16:26<@Bjarni>anybody here?
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16:27<@Bjarni>I guess not
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16:39<MarkSlap>Bjarni, :D
16:39|-|Mark|AFK changed nick to Mark
16:39<MarkSlap>It's pretty quiet tonight
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17:29<Prof_Frink>MarkSlap: Using 7-long stations, the only delay is leaving the wellhead
17:29<Prof_Frink>Less than 2Ml waiting
17:31<Prof_Frink>I have a fair few trains servicing the route
17:33<MarkSlap>Okey :)
17:33<Hendikins>Define fair few :P
17:34[~]Hendikins would probably run fair few+1
17:34<Prof_Frink>Erm, a hundred and forty
17:35<Prof_Frink>7x12 stations, pseudo-pbs on entry and a load rebalancer on wellhead exit
17:35<Hendikins>I'd have a crack at it if I wasn't autofoxing
17:36<Hendikins>Autofox kinda eats all the CPU time on my LAN
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17:37<fjb>What is pseudo-pbs?
17:38<Prof_Frink>I'm impressed - both cores still on 800MHz
17:38<Prof_Frink>fjb: What we did before true PBS was invented
17:38<dihedral>hehe - i got autopilot to auto-kick people with the playername 'player' or 'Player' :-)
17:38<Hendikins>Autofox is currently chewing 5 cores on my LAN
17:39<Hendikins>Although it is using icecream's scheduler...
17:39<fjb>How does pseudo-pbs work? OpenTTD doesn't have real pbs at the moment, if I'm right.
17:39<dihedral>does not have any pbs at the moment
17:40<Prof_Frink>dihedral: It has pseudo-pbs
17:40<Prof_Frink>Because it has presignals
17:40<dihedral>i.e. workaround with presignalling
17:40<Hendikins>Aren't we waiting for PBS that doesn't suck?
17:41<@Bjarni>btw I wonder about measuring fluids in litres. I have only seen fluids measured in m^3 when it comes to railroad stock (except stuff like amount of oil on gearbox or similar)
17:41<fjb>Somebody ist making a real cool pbs, but it's a lot of work.
17:41<@Bjarni>who is making PBS?
17:41<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Would also sort out consistency
17:42<@Bjarni>ahh that
17:43<@Bjarni>Tekky wrote that so it's not an official statement
17:43<@Bjarni>would be interesting to see if he can manage to do this though
17:43<fjb>But he is working on it, even we can not expect it in the near future.
17:43<@Bjarni>well, he claims to be working on it
17:44<@Bjarni>but it has been a while since I last saw him
17:44<fjb>Better working on it than chatting here. :-)
17:44<@Bjarni>that's the positive way of looking at the facts
17:45<@Bjarni>the negative is that he dropped out
17:45<@Bjarni>and everything in between is also possible
17:45<fjb>I think you could not do it in a couple of weeks. Things like that need more time.
17:46<fjb>And how is pseudo-pbs working? Is there an example on the net?
17:46<@Bjarni>what is pseudo-pbs?
17:48<@Bjarni><fjb> I think you could not do it in a couple of weeks. Things like that need more time. <--- yeah, but it would be natural to drop in once a week or so if you have progress to tell about
17:48[~]fjb is back
17:50<fjb>What parts of OpenTTD do you have to touch to implement it? I didn't look into the source that much yet.
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17:52<AmixfX>ive had a fight with my kitty now
17:52<AmixfX>gave her a bath ;p
17:53[~]Prof_Frink reconfigues the 6-2 merge as a 4-3 merge
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17:55<fjb>The poor cat...
17:55<AmixfX>i know
17:55<AmixfX>but she scratched her ear a lot
17:56<_Ben_>hmm, Does anyone know if, which I have, you leave a game running for ages by mistake and trains stop being avaliable, so you cheat to set back the date. Is it possible to get those trains to become available again?
17:57<@Bjarni>write "resetengines" in the console
17:57<@Bjarni>but I think it's a singleplayer only thing
17:57<_Ben_>ok thanks for that
17:58<@Bjarni>also enable the patch setting where they will not be taken out or it will happen again soon
17:58<fjb>Is the console documented anywhere?
17:58<_Ben_>yeah, I seemed to have turned that off at some point, not shore why
17:58<@Bjarni>there is some in the wiki, but the main console documentation is the source code
17:58<@Bjarni>all the commands are next to each other in the same file
17:58<@Bjarni>console.cpp or something like that
17:59<fjb>Ok, I'll have a look at the source.
18:01<fjb>I have another question. When I make the houses transparent I can see how many passengers they make. But there are two numbers eg. 2/4. Waht do that numbers mean?
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18:24<Sacro>eek Alltaken
18:24<Alltaken>hey hey its saturday ;)
18:24<Sacro>so it is
18:24<Sacro>but only just
18:24<Alltaken>how ya gong Sacro
18:25<Sacro>my gong?
18:25<Alltaken>its like Mid-day saturday
18:25<Alltaken>yeah hows ya gong
18:25<Sacro>heh :)
18:25<Sacro>its 00:25 here
18:25<Sacro>not bad, just walked back from town though
18:25<Sacro>too lazy to wait for the bus and then pay for it
18:26<Alltaken>yeah fair enough
18:26<Alltaken>so you are a bit tipsy then :P
18:26<Sacro>nope, i'm teetotal
18:30<fjb>Why do cities grow, when you move the people out of them? :-)
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18:32<@Belugas>Alltaken is still alive?? OMG!
18:32<@Belugas>hello :D
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18:34<Alltaken>yep i'm still alive
18:34<dihedral>hello Belugas
18:35<@Belugas>and dihedral is still awaken :D
18:35<dihedral>just about, yes :-)
18:35<@Belugas>What a night!
18:35<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
18:35<@Belugas>and yes, i still work@work, but now, it's work@home
18:36<dihedral>now i do feel sorry for your wife and kid
18:36<@Bjarni>could be worse
18:36<@Bjarni>could be home@work
18:37<@Belugas>true Bjarni, who knows, it may be the case one day :(
18:37<@Belugas>dihedral, me too...
18:37<@Bjarni>but now you make a lot of money
18:37<dihedral>yeah - great
18:37<@Bjarni>or you got a lousy work
18:37<dihedral>i'd rather see my son grow up than make a lot of money :-)
18:38<@Bjarni>but this work load is not a permanent thing
18:38<dihedral>once a boss gets used to it... :-P
18:38<@Bjarni>either it's reduced or I can imagine that Belugas can find something else to do
18:39<@Bjarni>we all have to survive and such a constant work load is not good for survival
18:39<dihedral>it aint
18:40<@Bjarni>how do you know?
18:40<dihedral>what you mean? how i know that such a work load aint good for ya?
18:40<dihedral>had my share
18:40<@Bjarni>oh right
18:40<dihedral>what did you mean?
18:41[~]Bjarni remembers his plan about going to bed... more than an hour ago
18:41<@Bjarni>what I meant.... err.... don't ask :P
18:41[~]dihedral remembers his plan about getting out of bed more than 12 hours ago
18:41<dihedral>i am asking Bjarni
18:42<@Bjarni>ok, I read it as you declared that Belugas' work load is constant and that he will never get any free time anymore
18:42<@Belugas>it's just a big phase rieght now
18:42<dihedral>i dont remember putting it like that
18:43<@Bjarni>you didn't
18:43<dihedral>i know - i would remember otherwise
18:43<@Bjarni>which is a clear sign that I should head for bed
18:43<@Belugas>the company took a lot of contracts by people who did not talked to each other and now, we all have to pay the price
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18:44<@Belugas>and whooo.... newindu still compiles :D
18:44<dihedral>Belugas: what is that supposed to mean
18:44<dihedral>they all ran out on you or what
18:44<@Belugas>hem... the right hand never knows what the left does
18:45<dihedral>dont we love such things
18:45<@Belugas>and i'm stuck in the middle fullfilling everyone's expectations
18:45<@Belugas>no we dont
18:45<@Belugas>NO WE DONT
18:45[~]dihedral is not sure if Belugas understood the sarcasm in the ... undertone
18:46<dihedral>i got autopilot to kick players if they are playing with the default nick
18:46<dihedral>way looking forward to using that now
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18:49<dihedral>well - i shall get some rest too
18:49<dihedral>have a nice one Belugas and dont spend too much time infront of that box :-)
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18:53<@Belugas>good advice...
18:53<@Belugas>like... quit it right now!
18:53<@Belugas>bye all
18:53<@Belugas>going to sleep now
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19:16<Phazorx>hmm... 1700 moving trains make 3G xeon steaming... when anotether round of optimization for yapf/collision/cargo coming? :)
19:16<Prof_Frink>When you code it. duh.
19:17<Phazorx>i'm retty sure KUDr and stillunknown can do it faster and better
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, just get a cray dedicated to all yapf calls worldwide
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>or use BOINC
19:19<fjb>Maybe yapf could use threads and take advantage of multicore cpus.
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19:38<mattt_>Do trains not unload if they can't fit on a platform?
19:39<+glx>they just do it very slowly
19:40<+glx>same for loading
19:41<mattt_>agghghhhhh i just noticed this station stopped accepting goods
19:41<mattt_>i'm backed up like 1500 crates
19:55<fjb>Good night.
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21:00<mattt_>How do I reduce breakdowns? I instruct my trains to service at a depot at pick up and drop off, but I'm still getting big traffic jams from breakdowns.. should I have a few depots along the route, too?
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21:24<Phazorx>depends on length of route
21:25<Phazorx>reliability shows you percentage chance to breakdown basicaly per day
21:26<mattt_>What kind of distance interval should I have for service depots?
21:26<Phazorx>and if you only have one lane - it will jam at some point, trains can still break even if you8 service them perfectly
21:26<Phazorx>based on age and reliabilty of your engine
21:26<mattt_>right.. but this is pretty bad
21:26<Phazorx>pickwahtever keeps their rating as close to 100 as possible
21:26<Phazorx>perhaps get different engines that are mroe reliable
21:27<Phazorx>yet again this only reduce chances, not eleminates the threat
21:27<mattt_>Well, I don't have any "in between" depots.. just at the end of the routes
21:27<Phazorx>you can tripple your lines and have stagegred crosses to avoid massive jams
21:27<Phazorx>that is a lot of weffort
21:28<mattt_>I could probably use a few mid-route depots
21:28<Phazorx>mattt_: how long does it take your train to get from A to B then?
21:28<mattt_>havn't measured
21:28<Phazorx>well you can estimate
21:28<Phazorx>watch how much train makes at delviery point
21:28<Phazorx>and see how much it made last eyar - devide
21:28<Phazorx>and that is roughly trips per year
21:29<Phazorx>if you get less than 4 you need depots
21:29<Phazorx>coopers play w/o breakdowns pretty much all the time, decreases realism but lets you have other challenges
21:30<mattt_>looks like about 1.5 months for my longest trip
21:33<Phazorx>are you using decent engines then?
21:34<mattt_>The electric just before the TIM model
21:36<Phazorx>ben a while since i played std set
21:36<Phazorx>what's max reliability?
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21:40<Phazorx>well if you keep it close to max trains should not break down more than once per 2.5 months unless you service them
21:40<Phazorx>only things you can do - reliable engines and depots to maintain realibility high
21:45<Phazorx>personaly i like breakdowns off
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 29 00:00:19 2007