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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-09-30

---Logopened Sun Sep 30 00:00:53 2007
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00:46<mattt_>My trains ignore their orders to stop at a particular depot for service
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03:13<dihedral>monrning
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03:15<Wolf01>hello
03:16<Farden>hi there
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03:27<huma>can i extend the number of tracks of already built train station?
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, just build a new one next to the existing one
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03:51<skidd13>something is wrong with the order system in current trunk. I set my trains to wait till full load, but they don't wait till then :(
03:52<dihedral>full_load_any ?
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04:00<skidd13>dihedral: full_load_any ? <- yes
04:00<dihedral>more than one cagotype you are picking up?
04:03<skidd13>nope only wood
04:06<dihedral>the timetable would not make a train leave early would it
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04:07<skidd13>I don't use timetables
04:08<dihedral>is a depot too close to the station
04:09<skidd13>Damn I got it. I use the SH '125' and the engine can tanke passengers :(
04:10<skidd13>s/tanke/take/
04:10<dihedral>lol
04:10<dihedral>:-)
04:10<dihedral>[11:03] <skidd13> nope only wood
04:11<dihedral>:-P
04:11<skidd13>I used auto replace and forgot that the engine sometimes can take passengers
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04:31<Alberth>some one here to discuss task 285 (prevent display of production changes of idle industries)?
04:34<dihedral>that's an interesting one
04:35<Alberth>I have made a slight generalization, namely splitting messages into changes that affect me, not me, and nobody
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04:36<dihedral>that does sound kinda nice
04:39<Alberth>however, its not my bug and I don't want to step on people toes, so what best to do?
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04:52<dihedral>pick one persons toes
04:52<Rubidium>Alberth: what are changes that "affect me"? That should ofcourse include the industries that I am planning to service.
04:52<dihedral>or in some cases Rubidium likes being the one
04:54<Rubidium>even industries appearing on the planned route and industries disappearing that I had planned a route around ;)
04:55<Rubidium>and "not me" means affects "some other player"?
04:55<Alberth>'affect me' means that a station of _local_player around the changing industry exists that accepts that cargo type
04:56<Alberth>idle means there is no accepting station and 'other' is all that is left :-)
04:56<Rubidium>all stations theoretically accept the given cargo type
04:56<Rubidium>and you can't really tell which stations bring cargo to an industry
04:57<Alberth>i use the same station search routine that the industry itself uses to decide where to move goods to
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04:57<Alberth>bringing is not used here, only moving from industry to station
04:57<Rubidium>Alberth: very nice, *but* that's only a less-than-half part of the pie
04:57<Alberth>euh, plz explai
04:58<Alberth>s/$/n/
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04:58<Rubidium>reason an industry affects me:
04:58<Rubidium>- I am currently getting stuff from them (covered by MoveGoods)
04:59<Rubidium>- I am going to be getting stuff from them (no train has yet reached the station, but I intend it to do so)
04:59<Rubidium>- I am currently bringing stuff to the industry
04:59<Rubidium>- I am planning on bringing stuff to the industry
04:59<Alberth>as soon as we have a brain-computer interface, i am sure we can solve 2 of them at least
05:00<Alberth>bringing is not a problem as far as i can see. changes in production doesn't affect bringing goods
05:00<Rubidium>well, "planning" is having orders to do so, or maybe having build the station near enough near the station
05:01<Rubidium>Alberth: an industry closing really affects the system as it can't "empty" it's trains anymore
05:01<Alberth>closing runs via NT_OPENCLOSE news
05:01<Rubidium>true
05:02<Rubidium>but shouldn't closing be filtered in the same manner?
05:02<Alberth>still thinkinng about 'planning' though
05:02<Alberth>possibly.
05:02<Alberth>may be even all message
05:02<Rubidium>the other messages aren't really spammed (or you can turn them off, like vehicle arriving somewhere)
05:03<Alberth>isn't planning the time-gap between giving a train orders to get the cargo and the train actually arriving at the station?
05:03<Rubidium>yup
05:04<Alberth>open/close doesn't really bother me, it doesn't happen that much in my games (single player, realtively small)
05:06<Alberth>i'd be willing to make a new patch to address closing of industry in the same manner (opening seems overkill, unless there are people that setup a station + train waiting for an industry to arrive :-) )
05:06<Rubidium>oh, and another case to completely mess with the system: people playing with "Deliver cargo to a station only when there is a demand" turned off
05:08<Rubidium>and there could be people trying to get cargo from an industry and not yet getting it (via MoveGoodsToStation) due to a too low rating, that are actually interested in knowing whether that industry halves it output, as that could make the resource "stealing" not worth the effort anymore.
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05:08<Alberth>to capture 'planning' we'd have to scan train orders, and match them with stations near the industry. sounds like a lot of work for that time gap
05:09<Alberth>ratings are not used
05:09<Ailure>hmm
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05:10<Rubidium>true, but that might mean it isn't affect, but stations that are "currently" actually being serviced
05:10<Alberth>the idea is that if you have a station near an industry you probably want to know about changes there
05:11<Alberth>well, ratings change, so to define 'affect me' as you get goods at the moment of the change seemed like a bad idea
05:11<Rubidium>so: "show me industry changes" (choose from): "never", "when my station is 'near'" and "always"
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05:12<Rubidium>which would (ofcourse) get tricky for the people making a subsidiaries patch
05:13<Alberth>always when the station accepts those goods then?
05:13<Rubidium>Alberth: no, just regardless of whether it accepts the goods or not
05:13<Rubidium>otherwise you'll get into all those gazillion corner cases I've been talking about the last half an hour
05:14<Alberth>selectable per industry you mean
05:14<Rubidium>no
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05:14<Alberth>always when you have no station near is either 'not me' or 'idle' at the moment.
05:14<Ailure>sadsad
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05:15<Rubidium>Alberth: 'affects not me' does not imply 'does not affect me'
05:15<Alberth>I am losing track I am afraid...
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05:16<Alberth>true, but not sure how to catch all those cases. Not even sure that you can catch them all
05:16<Alberth>so what would your proposal be?
05:16<Rubidium>affects not me, means affects any player that is not me, which means that it can show industries that affect me, because it affects other players too
05:17<Alberth>you lost me now
05:17<Rubidium>that's why I said: "one of my stations near the industry that is affected"
05:18<Rubidium>that's because IRC is nice to get question-answers very out-of-order
05:19<Alberth>especially here, wih an analogue modem downloading updates at the same time :-)
05:20<Rubidium>checking whether an industry change affects "me" is just a gazillion times more complex than checking whether a station of "me" is 'near' to the affected industry. <- That's what I tried to explain (and what corner cases "affects me" there are)
05:20<Rubidium>s/cases/cases for/
05:21<Alberth>ah, I missed that switch
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05:25<Alberth>ok, 'affect' seems too strong. Would 'serviced' be better?
05:27<Rubidium>with services you're still with the problem of the delivery of cargo (one might deliver cargo and another company picks it up)
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05:28<Alberth>nice one, I hadn't thought of that (only playing single player)
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05:30<Alberth>euh, wait a moment. delivery to industry is not interesting at all here, it is about changes in generated goods from industry. The only exception would be if I would steal goods (of the same cargo type) from that area from another player and *not* from the industry
05:35<Rubidium>Alberth: with NewIndustries industry can also temporary refuse cargo
05:35<Rubidium>and they can decrease acceptance too
05:37<Alberth>the precise message-setting strings would be "{YELLOW}Industry production changes served by the player", "{YELLOW}Industry production changes served by competition", and "{YELLOW}Other industry production changes". That quite explicitly eliminates delivery from the message settings
05:39<Alberth>maybe these are too broad as well, they do not cover changes in production due to some body else stopping the supply (ie Toy factories) where I take toys away.... </sigh>
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05:44<Alberth>so, how to proceed now? I doubt that cargo pickup and delivery can be defined clear enough that all cases are reported exactly right (if a player would be willing to be that precise in setting all the cases).
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05:50<dihedral>Rubidium: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/0production.png
05:50<dihedral>:)
05:54<Alberth>would two cases be better? "industry production changes near player station" and "other industry production changes"?
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06:13<Greyscale>Sup.
06:14<Greyscale>I have stock piled up at a station
06:14<Greyscale>but the station now accepts it again
06:14<Greyscale>how do I shift that?
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06:14<Greyscale>hey a1270
06:15<a1270>hello
06:15<Alberth>Greyscale: i usually add a wagon for that cargo to a train that already visits that station
06:15<Greyscale>Thats silly
06:15<Greyscale>it should automagically ask you if you want to dump stock
06:16<Greyscale>or have a button for it
06:16<Alberth>it should automagically be accepted :-)
06:16<Greyscale>yeah
06:16<Alberth>you wanted it? I already have some, here it is...
06:17<dihedral>just a little old, perhaps moldy - what do you know, a town might be interested
06:17<Greyscale>Oh yeah: Food never perishes?
06:18<Greyscale>there should be a "garbage" material
06:18<Greyscale>and carbage cars
06:18<Greyscale>and food, fruit and maize should slowly turn into garbage
06:18<Greyscale>My town has a garbage train anyway
06:18<Greyscale>fucking thing stinks
06:18<Greyscale>I hate waiting for it to go by
06:18<Alberth>I once built an special train for this, with a circle from the station back to the station. It turned out that the train simply moved to one end of the station, loaded, moved to the other end, unloaded/loaded moved back... etc :-)
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06:23<Rubidium>dihedral: that doesn't look like something that I've done
06:23<Rubidium>http://rubidium.student.utwente.nl/openttd/Prindtown%20Transport,%206th%20May%201951.png <- that does (with a little help of Pikka)
06:24<dihedral>nice
06:24<dihedral>Rubidium: i though production was not supposed to go below 32?
06:25<Rubidium>still, it's most likely that I haven't created the "issue"
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06:29<dihedral>that mine in the screeny was hopping between 0 and 33 every 2 months
06:30<Rubidium>slap glx if he's around; he's the last one that has changed the code responsible for that
06:31<dihedral>and i though it was TrueBrain
06:32<Rubidium>then why do you annoy me with it?
06:33<dihedral>just thought you knew something about it :-)
06:33<dihedral>or that it would make you smile :-P
06:34<Rubidium>it's kinda... "seen that before"
06:36<dihedral>shame :-P
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08:08<dihedral>you guys are a silent bunch
08:08<Alberth>every body is hacking or playng hard...
08:09<Rubidium>playing with newindustries that is ;)
08:10<hylje>what, newindustries?
08:10<Rubidium>not working correctly though :(
08:11<dihedral>:-(
08:11<Rubidium>though resource completion makes the game much more interesting
08:11<Rubidium>s/com/de/
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08:12<hylje>:o
08:13<hylje>all we need is proper track abandoning support
08:13<hylje>grassed track :>
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08:31<ln->http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/index.php?target=products&product_id=29809
08:32<dihedral>nice
08:35<svippery>Is Bjarni around?
08:35|-|svippery changed nick to svip
08:36<ln->what else could he do on a sunday afternoon than be around?
08:36<svip>Dunno...
08:36<svip>But I wanted to ask him a question about Danish signalling system.
08:37<svip>But I presume it is similar to the rest of Europe.
08:37<Rubidium>I presume it isn't
08:37<svip>Though, I don't know *super* much about trains.
08:40<@Bjarni><svippery> Is Bjarni around? <-- no
08:41<@Bjarni>at least not at the time the question was asked :P
08:41<svip>:P
08:41<svip>I was just thinking today...
08:41<@Bjarni>don't overdue it
08:41<svip>I was at Roskilde station, and I noticed that some of the signals were just two white lights lit.
08:41<svip>What does that mean?
08:42<@Bjarni>it hurts to overdo do something that you aren't used to do
08:42<svip>:|
08:42<@Bjarni>svip: PM
08:46<ln->what's so secret about Roskilde signals?
08:46<svip>>:O None of your business!
08:47<svip>:p
08:47<hylje>full disclosure
08:54|-|dihedral changed nick to dihedral|away
08:56<@Bjarni>the secret is that it's more or less specific to a Danish vocabulary as nobody thought of translating the signal terms
08:57<Rubidium>but we've got Sacro to translate it
08:57<svip>lol
08:57<svip>Sacro is like a universal translator.
08:57<ln->sacro the babelfish
08:58<@Bjarni>are you sure?
08:58<svip>Of course not.
08:58<@Bjarni>he messages me every time he needs to read something that's not English :s
08:58<svip>He just wants to say "håndfiler" again. :P
08:59<svip>Or avoid.
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09:09<@Bjarni>yeah
09:09<@Bjarni>avoidance sounds like a plan
09:09<@Bjarni>just like I should try to avoid trying to explain signals to a guy, who can't tell engine crew and carriage crew from each other :P
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09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11186 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: only fill the accepted cargo fields once, not multiple times.
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09:41<@Bjarni>oh speaking of Roskilde station...
09:42<@Bjarni>I read in a newsgroup that a guy spotted a steam train there and it was a really weird locomotive. It had the tender in front and the funnel in the rear... almost like a mirrored normal locomotive
09:42<@Bjarni>then some other guy had replied and said "I saw it too. It was (name of locomotive) and it was driving in reverse"
09:43<@Bjarni>I guess that can explain why it was ALMOST like a normal, but mirrored one
09:44<hylje>haha
09:46<@Bjarni>it's a perfectly normal 4-6-2T4 engine
09:46<hylje>steam locos, perfectly normal
09:46<@Bjarni>also that particular engine is in Roskilde when it's not driving
09:46<@Bjarni>so it's not odd to see it at that station
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09:47<De_Ghosty>anyone speak russian?
09:48<@Bjarni>not really
09:48<@Bjarni>specially considering it looks like everybody are away right now
09:48<De_Ghosty>aslong who does not who doesn't :)
09:49<De_Ghosty>asking*
09:49<De_Ghosty>blah
09:49<De_Ghosty>lol
09:49<@Bjarni>I can see that you might need to speak Russian to make sense of your sentences :P
09:49<De_Ghosty>yup
09:49<De_Ghosty>lol
09:50<@Bjarni>well... if you have something to say and you dare to try your English once more, then go ahead
09:51<De_Ghosty>no i donno russian
09:51<De_Ghosty>i need some help translating it
09:51<De_Ghosty>lol
09:51<@Bjarni>well... just add some random chars.. it's all the same to me :P
09:52<@Bjarni>ok maybe not
09:52<De_Ghosty>+OK 9AKDh.NOwak1rA65//hKQKN0
09:52<Prof_Frink>Bless you
09:52<@Bjarni>too random :P
09:52<De_Ghosty>lol
09:54<Alberth>yep, looks like one of my passwords... :)
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10:14<@Bjarni>heh
10:14<@Bjarni>*.dial.*
10:18<Ailure>heh
10:18<Ailure>steam train
10:18<Phazorx>will such things as food/goods/water delivery to town be "demmand based" with new industries?
10:18<Ailure>reminds me when i realized that a steam train might have gone by my home without me noticing :/
10:19<Ailure>after seeing something about it in a newspaper
10:19<@Bjarni>:P
10:19<@Bjarni>same thing happened to me
10:19<@Bjarni>except I heard and smelled it
10:19<@Bjarni>didn't see anything but the last car :/
10:20<Ailure>heh though I have seen steam trains twice in my life though
10:20<@Bjarni>twice???
10:20<Phazorx>by demand i mean consumption based on population
10:20<Ailure>well, on old unused railways
10:20<@Bjarni>only twice?
10:20<Ailure>as in "running steam trains"
10:20<@Bjarni>yeah I get what you mean
10:20<@Bjarni>but....
10:20<@Bjarni>ONLY TWICE???
10:21<Ailure>:P
10:21<Ailure>I didn't exactly grow up close to railways
10:21<Ailure>infact it was uncommon for me to see trains until I moved to Hassleholm
10:21<Ailure>now I see them practically whenever I look out the window
10:21<Prof_Frink>Ailure: I've seen a steam train on a mainline
10:22<Ailure>I just need to turn my head right and I see the train station here :P
10:22<@Bjarni>within the last year, I have seen.... hmmm at least 6 different operational steam locomotives (not at the same location)
10:22<Ailure>used for tourists I assume? Or as "temponary" trains?
10:23<@Bjarni>temponary?
10:23<Ailure>I heard about steam engines being used whenever they needed a extra train or two
10:23<Ailure>in Sweden
10:23<Ailure>but that probably was for awhile ago
10:23<@Bjarni>that's pretty rare, but it could happen in case of a breakdown
10:23<@Bjarni>I know it happened in Copenhagen somewhere around 1990
10:24<Ailure>heh
10:24<Ailure>sounds intresting
10:24<@Bjarni>the EMU broke down and the steam train that was supposed to go just after it (without passengers) was asked to stop at all stations to avoid cancelling a train
10:24<@Bjarni>it had to drive that way anyway
10:24<@Bjarni>at that time
10:25<Ailure>ah
10:25<Ailure>I don't think I ever heard any serious usage of steam engines in the last three centuries or so
10:25<@Bjarni>the passengers looked surprised though
10:25<Ailure>but I might be wrong
10:25<Ailure>in scandinavia
10:25<@Bjarni>err
10:25<@Bjarni>last three centuries... you mean since 1707?
10:26<@Bjarni>I think you mean decades
10:26<Ailure>ah damn
10:26<Ailure>decade yes
10:26<Ailure>haha
10:26[~]Bjarni has heard of serious usage of steam locomotives within the last 3 centuries
10:27<@Bjarni>DSB discontinued steam operation in 1968
10:27<Ailure>steam locomotives are still a symbol for trains
10:28<Ailure>so it's a bit of a shame they're not used as widely nowadays
10:28<@Bjarni>so certain sources claims that to be the year of the end of steam in Denmark, though the shortlines kept using them until the last one derailed in 1979
10:28<Ailure>ah
10:28<@Bjarni>bad weather.... a huge pile of snow in a curve and then the engine with a snowplow drove as fast as possible and went strait ahead
10:28<@Bjarni>not good in a curve
10:29<Ailure>probably could happen with any locomotive
10:29<Ailure>from the sounds of it
10:29<@Bjarni>yeah
10:29<@Bjarni>happened to a few diesels last winter
10:30<Ailure>dunno when a train last derailed around here
10:31<Ailure>I was afraid of derailment once when being in a uhm...
10:31<Ailure>Pagatag train
10:31<@Bjarni>http://www.signalpost.dk/foto/ohj100-oln08.JPG <-- this is the one in question
10:31<Ailure>probably the most shaky train I been on xD
10:31<Ailure>ah
10:31<@Bjarni>lights aren't good at that picture. It's a 2-8-2 wheel configuration
10:32<@Bjarni>"geared" to a top speed of 65 km/h... damn good freight engine for not so good tracks
10:33<Ailure>ah
10:33<@Bjarni>hehe
10:33<@Bjarni>Ailure is afraid of the pågatåg :P
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10:33<Ailure>http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:P%C3%A5gat%C3%A5get_Kal_P_Dal_i_Lund.jpg
10:33<Ailure>:<
10:33<Ailure>Nah, not really afraid
10:34<Ailure>well ok, there was a bit that startled me
10:34<Ailure>with the lights going out and the train shaking really uncomfortable
10:34<@Bjarni>ok, that's not good
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10:34<Ailure>haha yeah
10:34<Ailure>I might be exegerrating
10:34<Ailure>but I do remember the lights flickering a few times during the trip
10:34<Ailure>like, lights turned off for a second
10:35<Ailure>I prefer the Rc6 passenger trains or... uhm
10:36<Ailure>Oresundstag
10:36<@Bjarni>I once read a story about a guy, who long ago went to Jylland and used the train. It was a two axle DMU and bad tracks so it was a shaky ride. Then all of a sudden the whole chassis makes a big jump to the side and then quickly a big jump to the other side and he screams because he thinks it's derailing
10:36<@Bjarni>then everybody looked at him
10:36<@Bjarni>and one of the locals said "it always does that at this spot"
10:37<Ailure>hahaha
10:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11187 /trunk/src/newgrf_industrytiles.cpp: -Fix: what holds for houses in r11149 also holds for industries.
10:37<@Bjarni>but knowing the conditions of the rails they used to use, it could be close to derailing every time a train passed :(
10:38<Ailure>true
10:38<Ailure>while you rarely hear about people getting killed in derailments
10:38<Ailure>it's probably not a pleasant experience
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10:39<@Bjarni>the first heating in train cars were ovens with fire in them... when the trains derailed the ovens emptied the burning coal into the passenger compartments and the wooden structures were set on fire
10:39<@Bjarni>that's basically why the heating steam from the engines were in use
10:39<@Bjarni>*was invented
10:40<hylje>haha
10:40<@Bjarni>naturally the American railroads learned this the hard way
10:40<Ailure>intresting
10:40<@Bjarni>as they have likely made all the possible accidents a million times
10:40<Ailure>might be why passenger transport is not so big in USA
10:40<Ailure>:P
10:40<@Bjarni>they were known to be reckless in the 19th century
10:41<Ailure>yeah
10:41<Ailure>there was rapid expnasion at parts
10:41<@Bjarni>they made a law in 1911 (I think), banning unsafe locomotives, adding demand for signals at the railroads where the station had communication with each other and so on
10:42<Ailure>and cars weren't too common
10:42<@Bjarni>I like this one "demand for two water level gauges at every boiler".... since something could get stuck in one and making false readings
10:43<@Bjarni>however I don't know of any European steam locomotive that ever had only one
10:43<@Bjarni>but it appeared to be a problem in USA
10:43<Ailure>seems to be a nice failsafe system at least
10:43<Ailure>if they give way diffrent readings you know something is off
10:43<Ailure>heh
10:43<@Bjarni>low water will expose the top of the firebox and that can make the boiler go boom
10:44<@Bjarni>basically the only way it can explode if it's well maintained
10:44<Prof_Frink>No
10:44<@Bjarni>no?
10:45<Prof_Frink>If you accidentally put high explosive in instead of coal...
10:45<@Bjarni>well, I assume that the safety valves are working by saying that it's well maintained
10:46<Ailure>what about nuclear steam engine? :P
10:46<@Bjarni>I only know of one steam locomotive that exploded in Scandinavia
10:46<Ailure>it's possibe, but it probably won't be allowed on the rails
10:46<@Bjarni>naturally it was in Sweden :P
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10:46<Ailure>hush you xD
10:46[~]Ailure looks it up
10:47<hylje>nuclear loco
10:47<hylje>i wonder how many electric motors it would feed
10:47<@Bjarni>it was in the repair shop and they had to test the boiler so they blocked the safety valve and heated it up to gain 50% more than the safety valve allows
10:47<hylje>and how monstrous the device would be
10:47<@Bjarni>common procedure when a boiler is fixed
10:47<Ailure>you cxna probably do a nuclear loco without involving electric motors
10:48<@Bjarni>well.... they relied 100% on a broken pressure gauge and kept firing to gain pressure
10:48<@Bjarni>all of a sudden the whole boiler flew 200 meters into the air
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10:48<@Bjarni>the pressure were around 200% of maximum
10:48<Ailure>haha
10:48<Ailure>damn
10:48<SmatZ>hello all
10:48<hylje>haha
10:49<Ailure>hardly first time extreme testing leads to a accident
10:49<Ailure>see Chernobyl
10:49<@Bjarni>the boiler hit the ground and bounced twice before finally staying down the 3rd time
10:49<Ailure>anyone that got hurt?
10:50<Ailure>I'm ont exactly lucky with finding information about it
10:50<hylje>Bjarni: how comical
10:50<@Bjarni>yeah.... they spread burning coal and really hot steam everywhere inside the building
10:50<@Bjarni>so nobody survived
10:50<Ailure>ow
10:51<@Bjarni>so like 7 people died
10:51<@Bjarni>all educated railroad staff... so it shouldn't have happened :P
10:51<@Bjarni>I don't know where in Sweden it happened
10:52<Ailure>how long time did it happen anyway
10:52<@Bjarni>it was in the steam era
10:52<Ailure>ah
10:52<@Bjarni>before the electrification
10:52<Ailure>probably would be tricky finding information about it then
10:52<@Bjarni>yeah
10:53<Ailure>Kinda got the idea it was in the electrification/diesel era in Sweden, when steam locomotives was only used for reserves
10:54<@Bjarni>to avoid stuff like that, cold compressed water is pumped into the boiler because if something goes wrong, you can just turned off the pump and you have full control of the pressure
10:54<@Bjarni>it's kind of hard to just turn off burning coal
10:54<@Bjarni>so just the fact that they used burning coal tells that it's ages ago
10:54<Ailure>heh
10:55<Ailure>coal isn't used as commonly nowadays even when you can use it
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10:56<@Bjarni>it is in steam locomotives
10:57|-|dihedral|away changed nick to dihedral
10:57<Ailure>heh
10:57<@Bjarni>so it's commonly used in the topic of this story
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11:01<Ailure>I wonder if steam engines would ever make a comeback
11:02<@Bjarni>they aren't gone
11:02<@Bjarni>they are just hidden
11:02<@Bjarni>we can't do without them
11:02<@Bjarni>we just call them powerplants today
11:02<Ailure>;)
11:02<Ailure>That's true
11:02<Ailure>haha
11:04<Ailure>hell even when fusion technology comes around... parts of it will still be a steam engine. :P
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11:05<Ailure>and the few power plants that dosen't use steam are usually not too economical
11:07<Vikthor>Ailure: I would say that most of nonsteam powerplants are water-based and they do not have problems with being un-economical
11:07<Ailure>hmm probably
11:07<Ailure>I gotta check it up later
11:08<Ailure>I know for sure that there's even lots of variety between same power plant type :/
11:08<Ailure>even in terms of general design
11:09<Vikthor>though I agree that solar or wind power is uneconomical - but they are still not so common
11:09<Ailure>still, it's rather amusing thinking that nuclear power plants
11:09<Ailure>are nothing but a big steam engine with nuclear fuel for heating
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11:10<Ailure>solar power can actually be economical one day though
11:10<Vikthor>Ailure: There is great difference between steam engine with valves(Watt design or so) and steam turbine
11:10<Ailure>if they can figure out solar panels that are both effective and cheap to manufactor
11:11<hylje>solar train
11:11<hylje>lots of roof space
11:11<hylje>.. not so efficient in tunnels
11:11<Ailure>haha
11:13<Vikthor>Ailure: That is the problem - silicon rafination is energy-demanding and thus not so cheap
11:13<Ailure>yeah, that's the most common argument against solar panels too
11:14<Ailure>you either have to find a alternative to silicon, or reduce the costs of silicon rafination
11:14<Ailure>obviously heh
11:14<@Bjarni>steam can be economically sane. The most efficient coal powered powerplant in the world is in Denmark and it has an efficiency of 49,8% when making electricity only
11:14<@Bjarni>when it use the waste heat to heat up buildings, then it goes up to more than 90% efficiency
11:14<Ailure>that's common nowadays
11:15<@Bjarni>not that common
11:15<Vikthor>Bjarni: Of course but they use steam turbine, that has higher efficiency than the classical one
11:15<@Bjarni>38% efficiency on power output is really common
11:15<Ailure>I mean, at least here
11:16<Ailure>"spillvarme"
11:16<Ailure>dunno what's the english word for that is
11:16<@Bjarni>wasted heat ;)
11:16<Vikthor>Ailure: waste-heat?
11:16<Ailure>but lots of industries who have it tend to put it to use
11:16<Ailure>some in rather creative ways
11:16<Ailure>like a chemical plant outside of helsingborg that uses it for eel-farming
11:17<@Bjarni>Copenhagen has the largest pipeline system in the world used for heating normal housing
11:18<@Bjarni>they gain the heat from powerplants and a few special heating producing plants (no power)
11:18<@Bjarni>this is way more efficient that producing the heat at location
11:18<Ailure>yeah
11:19<Ailure>electrity-based heat is probably one of the worst ways heating up a house
11:19<@Bjarni>even Køge is heated from waste heat from Copenhagen
11:19<Ailure>both from a enviromental and economical perspective
11:19<Vikthor>Bjarni: Part of Prague is heated by heat from Mělník powerplant about 50km away
11:19<@Bjarni>nice
11:20<Ailure>anyway, need to do some grocery shopping before the store closes at 19:00 so brb
11:21<@Bjarni>the shops here are closed by law
11:21<@Bjarni>and the shops are really upset about forcing them to be closed on Sundays because people just go to Sweden to do their shopping
11:26|-|h3lb changed nick to helb
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11:35<Rubidium>Bjarni, easy solution to that: force trains, busses and ships to be stopped and close the bridge between Denmark and Sweden
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11:43<Phazorx>if i complile openttd on 2 different days with same source same compiler and same config and cflags.. should binaries be any different ?
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11:44<Rubidium>if the compiler embeds the compile time
11:44<texmith>hi
11:44<texmith>lots here o_O
11:45<Phazorx>Rubidium: gcc 3.3.4
11:45<texmith>My openttd isn't listing internet games
11:45<texmith>??
11:46<Rubidium>does "connection" say "internet" and have you pressed on "find server"?
11:46<Rubidium>Phazorx: could be, I don't know
11:46<texmith>yes
11:46<texmith>same as usual
11:46<texmith>just wondering if others having same problem
11:46<Rubidium>then your firewall/router drops the UDP packets that are sent
11:46<texmith>hmm ok
11:47<DaleStan>!rev 111149
11:47<Rubidium>though any decent firewall setup should go the right thing
11:47<DaleStan>!openttd commit 11149
11:47<_42_>Commit by maedhros :: r11149 /trunk/src/ (macros.h newgrf_house.cpp) (2007-09-23 10:54:11 UTC)
11:47<_42_>-Fix [FS#1225]: Draw building stages for new house ground sprites.
11:47<texmith>I had an idea for a new feature
11:48<texmith>laying signals as you lay track
11:48<texmith>maybe with alt key.. drag track and it places signal as it goes
11:48<texmith>drag the other direction.. signals go other way
11:49<texmith>combines track laying and signal dragging
11:49<texmith>any use?
11:53<Phazorx>hmm... 2 sequentilay compiled binaries differ by 70 bytes
11:53<hylje>:o
11:54|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A5347.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:54<skidd13>hi
11:55<Phazorx>Rubidium: silly questions... but the binary should not write anytihng to itself under no conditions?
11:56|-|Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-176-206.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
11:56<Phazorx>cuz i have 3 copies of compiled ottd
11:56<Phazorx>one in svn tree and 2 in diff game folders
11:57<Phazorx>somehow, 2 in game folders stopped working normaly (CTD on start)
11:57<Rubidium>Phazorx: don't ask me, ask in #gcc or so
11:57<Phazorx>when compared to orignal svn one, whoch they been copied from - they doffer by one byte
11:57<Phazorx>sorry, one bit even
11:58<Phazorx>well this is more for #virus or #failing_hdd rather than $gcc me thinks :/
11:59<Rubidium>a virus wouldn't change one bit, failing HDD or memory would
11:59<Rubidium>or rather failing hardware in general
12:00<Phazorx>one bit for virri yeah, kinda strange
12:00<Phazorx>but the fact of change itself is worring in that aspect
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12:00<Phazorx>failing ram shoudlnt really affect something on state device
12:01<skidd13>Rubidium: If you've got time, can you give me please soem comments to FS1263 and FS921. Thanks
12:01<skidd13>:%s /soem/some/g
12:01<SmatZ>it can damage data during copying, while in disk buffers
12:01<Phazorx>SmatZ: they were copied fone
12:02<Phazorx>worked for 2 weeks
12:02<Rubidium>it could even be a failing HDD cable or small power drop (which is why I said failing hardware)
12:02<Phazorx>Rubidium: i can not imagone small drop of that kind which affects only one logical unit
12:03<Rubidium>Phazorx: just enough for the memory of the HDD to be slightly mangled, but the condensators on the motherboard could keep the power long enough
12:03<Phazorx>disoriented domains could do that
12:03<SmatZ>it would cause 2 bit errors
12:03<Phazorx>i guess everythign is possible i guess
12:03<Rubidium>why would it cause 2 bit errors?
12:03<SmatZ>hmm maybe not, depends how good ECC is
12:04<SmatZ>information (1) is written as a change in domain orientation
12:04<SmatZ>but depends how the error is detected and corrected
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12:08<Phazorx>hmm... and game still doesnt want to start
12:08<Phazorx>what in ini file can cause ottd to CTD on start
12:09<Phazorx>if -s null -m null used?
12:09<Rubidium>nothing should
12:09<Phazorx>err correction
12:09<Phazorx>openttd.exe -m null -s null -b 8bpp-optimized - does not work
12:09<Phazorx>openttd.exe -m null -s null works
12:10<+glx>it uses -b 8bpp-optimized by default
12:10<Rubidium>works like a charm here
12:10<Phazorx>glx: didnt know that
12:10<Phazorx>but now it makes even less sense?
12:11<Phazorx>err
12:11<Phazorx>any -b fail :|
12:12<Phazorx>openttd.exe -b 8bpp-optimized - works
12:13<Phazorx>so no music/sound and specified blitter cause it to fail?
12:14<Phazorx>is it me or that completely makes no sense at all?
12:14<Phazorx>and of course, if i add -d it works liek a charm
12:17<Prof_Frink>Phazorx: That'll be a Heisenbug then.
12:19<Phazorx>Prof_Frink: it is reprodusable localy
12:19<Prof_Frink>Yes, but if you try to debug it, it vanishes.
12:20<Phazorx>i guess it is then
12:20<Prof_Frink>http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/heisenbug.html
12:21<Phazorx>i'm fimilar with the idea :)
12:21<Rubidium>Prof_Frink: the bug we like most ;)
12:21<Prof_Frink>I thought that was the WONTFIX
12:33<Rubidium>nah, heisenbugs are much nicer ;)
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12:36<dihedral>Brianetta: can i source a file more than once in autopilot?
12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11188 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs):
12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: rewrite of the town action related code (remove some of the magic).
12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: possibility to disable exclusive rights and giving money. Both by skidd13.
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13:03<hylje>feature request: don't pop up budget when the mouse button is held :(
13:04<SmatZ>or don't pop-up it at all...
13:04<hylje>its an option already
13:04<SmatZ>yeah, I think so
13:04<boekabart>hylje: held is not enough, also when you're just about to press it, it can be annoyong
13:05<boekabart>*ing
13:05<hylje>but while pressing is enough magic
13:05<hylje>one could delay it until cursor doesn't have building state
13:05<hylje>though
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13:17<ln->any indians here?
13:17<boekabart>american or indian?
13:17<boekabart>;)
13:17<ln->either
13:19<hylje>or indians recently migrated to america?
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13:20<goddamnit>indian from india?
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13:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11189 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: if the location check callback results in something invalid (i.e. not a callback result), the industry should be allowed to be build as that's how TTDP does it.
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14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11190 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix: make snowy roofs of (newgrf) houses also transparent.
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>yay!!
14:40<Rubidium>why that load yay?
14:40<Rubidium>you play artic a lot or so?
14:41<+glx>he plays alpine :)
14:41<Rubidium>with PBS, or have you stopped doing that?
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14:43<Rubidium>a lot (if not all) of his issues with the alpine GRF should be fixed by now
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>but that was one of the most noticeable ones ;)
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>besides, i have not paid any attention the last days
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen anyone who ported the PBS patch to C++/makefile rewrite yet...
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>so i don't use it currently
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15:13<ln->dit experiment moet worden beëindigd
15:13<ln->baan verlaten
15:15<ln->pardon, bent u 'n romulaan?
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15:15<Eddi|zuHause>the dutch really write ë there? in german it is just "beendet" (or less common "beendigt")
15:16<ln->that's how it was written here
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15:16<Rubidium>@kick ln- Sacro, stop using other people's nicks!
15:16|-|ln- kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Sacro, stop using other people's nicks!]
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15:16<ln->now, now, these aren't profanities, but rather useful phrases
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15:18<Rubidium>maybe when you're in an interplanetary war
15:19<Sacro>wtf?
15:23<Wolf01>just a suggestion for the server language icons http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/
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15:28<Amixwoktest>updated www.tv7norge.com
15:28<Amixwoktest>:)
15:36<@Bjarni>nice
15:36<@Bjarni>but...
15:36<@Bjarni>do people really watch Alf?
15:36<@Bjarni>I always considered Alf to be weird and aimed at morons
15:37<Amixwoktest>hehe
15:37<+glx>I did it a long time ago
15:37<@Bjarni>oh wait, I guess it could produce a lot of viewers :P
15:37<Sacro>morons?
15:37<goddamnit>hahah
15:37<goddamnit>Sacro watch alf
15:37<goddamnit>:)
15:38<@Bjarni>looks like it
15:38<@Bjarni>I rest my case
15:38<Amixwoktest>alf eats cats
15:39<@Bjarni>Chinese people eat dogs... I don't watch them anyway
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15:47<ln->the outer limits used to have one veeery crappy episode per season.
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15:48<ln->one in which they tried to link past stories together with each another, showing some video footage from them.
15:54<Amixwoktest>ohh
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16:01<Wolf01>'night
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17:06<soup>whats the password to the openttdcoop public server
17:07<+glx>join #openttdcoop
17:07<soup>banned for no reason
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>bans never have a reason... kicks have...
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17:17<soup>whats the password on the public server
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17:17<+glx>soup: we can't know it
17:18<soup>im also banned at #openttdcoop for no reason
17:20<ln->if you don't know the reason that doesn't mean there isn't a reason
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17:25<Ammler>soup, why do you think, there is no reason?
17:25<Ammler>oh, he is off...
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17:29<@Bjarni>that soup guy reminds me of the GoodSoup family from Monkey Island 3
17:30|-|soup [~banana@66.230.114.105] has joined #openttd
17:30<@Bjarni>and he is back
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i did not play monkey 3 that long, but this is probably something lost in translation...
17:31<@Bjarni>soup: it is preferred to just stay in the channel rather than quitting and joining over and over
17:31<soup>ok
17:31<@Bjarni>it spams the channel with quit messages
17:32<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: it's the hotel owner on the volcano island
17:32<@Bjarni>the not so bright one
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i never finished it
17:32<@Bjarni>:P
17:33<soup>i know de_ghost has the open ttd coop password
17:33<@Bjarni>it's the island you get to after you sailed with your ship (go figure)
17:34<@Bjarni>I can really recommend finishing this great game
17:34<@Bjarni>and now it even works great in ScummVM
17:35|-|soup [~banana@66.230.114.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:35<@Bjarni>they cleared out the sprite overlay issues (like being able to see though signs and stuff)
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>i worked out half of my graphics driver problem
17:35<De_Ghost>what do you want from me?!?!?!
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>i had to compile the kernel module with gcc-4.1 instead of gcc-4.2
17:35<@Bjarni>heh
17:36<@Bjarni>De_Ghost: he wants the password for the coop server... he is banned
17:36<De_Ghost>...
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>but now i get really low FPS in glxgears
17:36<@Bjarni>so don't tell him ;)
17:36<De_Ghost>if he is banned... why should i give him pass?
17:36<@Bjarni>I don't know
17:36<De_Ghost>ask Ammler
17:36<De_Ghost>lol
17:37<@Bjarni>I wouldn't give it to anybody
17:37<@Bjarni>either people can figure out the pass on their own or they aren't qualified to play on that server
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm, this does not look promising
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>(EE) AIGLX error: dlsym for __driCreateNewScreen_20050727 failed (/usr/lib/dri/fglrx_dri.so: undefined symbol: __driCreateNewScreen_20050727)
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>(EE) AIGLX: reverting to software rendering
17:42<+glx>grr stupid HL
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>sorry :p
17:44<ln->fglrx in general doesn't look promising
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>it used to work once...
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>then i updated to X.Org 7.1
17:46<@Bjarni>bad move :P
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>that was like half a year ago
17:46<@Bjarni>you have used software rendering for half a year?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>let's say i have avoided 3D applications
17:48<@Bjarni>well
17:48<@Bjarni>I prefer 4D anyway
17:49<Ammler>soup is the guy with the virus
17:49<@Bjarni>ahh
17:49<@Bjarni>well
17:49<ln->what virus?
17:49<@Bjarni>I don't trust it to be a virus
17:49<@Bjarni>at least not in his computer
17:49<Ammler>:)
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>google tells me i should add: Section "ServerFlags" Option "AIGLX" "off" EndSection
17:50<@Bjarni>maybe in his brain though
17:50<Ammler>indeed
17:50<@Bjarni><ln-> what virus? <-- he destroys stuff on the coop server and claims it to be a java virus on his computer, so he didn't do it personally... it was all automated
17:50<@Bjarni>and it happened more than once
17:51<@Bjarni>a java virus that sends destroy rails commands in OpenTTD... not very likely
17:53<ln->hah
17:53<Ammler>is it complicated to have possibilty of IP Masks in the banlist
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>brb, trying this
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17:59<@Bjarni>it would be nice to know what "this" is :P
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18:00<ln->http://youtube.com/watch?v=mzl0O8rsgAM
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18:11<@Bjarni>ln-: thank you very much
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18:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i don't think i can get this right today
18:38<ln->we vangen een vaag noodsignaal op een subruimte-frequentie
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause>you should not watch star trek with dutch subtitles...
18:45<ln->these TNG discs were released without finnish subtitles.
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18:45<ln->danish is there, swedish is there, norwegian is there, german is there... no finnish.
18:46<@Bjarni>why use subtitles at all?
18:47<ln->normally i use the english ones, because every now and then someone pronounces something unclearly and the subtitles help to figure out.
18:47<@Bjarni>that makes sense
18:48<@Bjarni>but usually translated subtitles really lose info compared to the spoken language
18:48<@Bjarni>not to mention the risk of errors
18:48<ln->yeah, only 1/3 of the things people say is in the subtitles
18:48<@Bjarni>like one time I noticed "Dincut" (name of town) was translated as "dear god"
18:49<@Bjarni>well, the translator heard it as "dear god"
18:49<ln->there's even a book of bad ones published over here
18:49<@Bjarni>since such issues aren't uncommon, it makes me wonder about the subtitles of all the languages where I don't understand the spoken language
18:50<@Bjarni>like Finnish
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18:51<ln->one such example was "I'm going to go watch Magic Johnson play", which was translated roughly (to finnish) as "Jag ska gå se när magiker Jonatan spelar musik"
18:52<@Bjarni>:D
18:52<@Bjarni>I don't think Magic Johnson is known for playing music
18:52<@Bjarni>:P
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18:54<@Bjarni>I would say that the Danish subtitles for Star Trek (all of it) sucks
18:54<ln->but in general one must remember that sometimes translators even need to translate a movie based only on the soundtrack, they don't see the picture.
18:54<@Bjarni>I can't do it better, but somehow they feel really wrong
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18:54<@Bjarni>they aren't incorrect either, but still...
18:54<@Bjarni>well, I didn't notice that they should be incorrect
18:55<ln->ingen fartøjer inden for 2 parsec.
18:55<@Bjarni><ln-> but in general one must remember that sometimes translators even need to translate a movie based only on the soundtrack, they don't see the picture. <--- which is bad for quality and hence you should consider how well you should trust them
18:57<@Bjarni><ln-> ingen fartøjer inden for 2 parsec. <-- actually I thought of something like "Vi er Borgerne. I vil blive (assimilated)..." they just sounds so weird... specially with the word they picked for assimilated (which I just forgot P )
18:57<@Bjarni>*:P
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 01 00:00:50 2007