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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-01

---Logopened Mon Oct 01 00:00:50 2007
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03:48<TrueBrain>howdie all
03:50<mcbane>morning =)
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04:24<dihedral|work>morning ladies :-)
04:25<TrueBrain>hi joiner
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04:55<dihedral|work>:-P
04:55<dihedral|work>TrueBrain: nice to see you back
04:55<dihedral|work>TrueBrain: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/0production.png
04:55<dihedral|work>:-P
04:55<mcbane>heh
04:55<mcbane>thats not much
04:56<dihedral|work>i thought it was not supposed to go below 32?
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05:52<TrueBrain>dihedral|work: gained successes in the past doesn't garantuee any in the future ;)
05:53<dihedral|work>TrueBrain: that forrest was jumping every 2 months between 0 and 33T
05:53<TrueBrain>dihedral|work: make a bug report (including savegame :))
05:54<TrueBrain>oeh, the choices.. do I download House S04E01 in HR quality or not...
05:54<dihedral|work>:-(
05:54<dihedral|work>aint got the save :-P
05:54<TrueBrain>so much more diskspace....
05:54<TrueBrain>now that is just plain stupid
05:54<dihedral|work>i have 70 megs of save game for each game
05:54<TrueBrain>you have a bug, and you don't make a savegame
05:54<dihedral|work>yep
05:54[~]dihedral|work agrees
05:55<dihedral|work>i'll see if one of the players from that time has a save :-)
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05:56<dihedral|work>how many savegames would i need if saving every 6 months and wanting to keep saves for 24 hours?
05:57<Eddi|zuHause2>how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
05:57<dihedral|work>wenn griechen hinter griechen kriechen...
05:58<Eddi|zuHause2>dihedral|work: a day is roughly 2 seconds
05:59<Eddi|zuHause2>so a month is around an hour
05:59<dihedral|work>18 mins to a month
05:59<dihedral|work>sorry
05:59<dihedral|work>Eddi|zuHause2: funny that - i get 3 years in an hour
06:00<dihedral|work>18 mins to a year...
06:00<dihedral|work>so 2 seconds a day cannot be quite right
06:00<Eddi|zuHause2>err... wait...
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause2>2 seconds/day * 30 days/month = 1 minute/month
06:01<Ammller>dihedral|work: I think, its about 14 mins
06:01<Eddi|zuHause2>* 12 months/year = 12 minutes
06:02<Eddi|zuHause2>so you get more like 4 years per hour
06:02<Ammller>thats a yearly autosave: http://mozart.ammler.ch/tt-ms/save/autosave/
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06:05<Ammller>as Eddi|zuHause2 said, its roughly 2 sec, not exact, so its a little more
06:08<Niki->hi :)
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06:16<dihedral|work>Ammller: my halfyear savegames are in 8 to 9 minute intervals...
06:17<Ammller>hmm, does that make such differences
06:17<dihedral|work>giving me 16 minutes for a year at shortest, and 18 minutes at max
06:17<dihedral|work>that was the atime values i compared
06:17<dihedral|work>i did not pay attention to seconds :-)
06:18<Ammller>i'll check coop
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06:45<Eddi|zuHause2>dihedral|work: years can get longer if the game is very crowded, and the computer does not keep up
06:46<dihedral|work>cpu is at 10% per game
06:48<Eddi|zuHause2>then your clock is too fast :p
06:48<svip>Anything new lately in the trunk?
06:48<svip>Haven't checked.
06:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. transparent snow on houses :p
06:49<svip>Really?
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06:55<Ammller>svip: do you know autoslope?
06:55<svip>As in slope terrain under tracks?
06:56<Ammller>yes
06:56<Ammller>and houses industries etc.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause2>no, as in create foundations for houses if you terraform next to them
06:56<svip>Oh.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause2>without clearing the house first
06:57<Ammller>thats something coolest since newhouses
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06:58<@Bjarni>interesting feature request...
06:58|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd
06:58<@Bjarni>requesting autorenew to be able to change one model with another one
06:59<@Bjarni>"But you missed the point: the autoreplace does NOT allow me to upgrade the vehicle (change the model)"
07:00<Eddi|zuHause2>and you said "let me code that in a few seconds"?
07:00<@Bjarni>nahh
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07:01<Eddi|zuHause2>"that'd take at least 2 years to get it working right."
07:01<@Bjarni>it took a year to get working, so it's not that trustworthy to claim to be able to do it in a matter of seconds
07:01<@Bjarni>yeah, it's still not working right :P
07:01<@Bjarni>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1264 <-- the currently known issue
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07:09<@Bjarni>anyway this guy wrote a whole lot
07:09<@Bjarni>in fact too much... :P
07:10<@Bjarni>like... should I really read all of this because this guy didn't find the autoreplace window?
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08:03<fjb>Hi
08:03<dihedral|work>hi
08:04<fjb>Is there a way to get the stats of the vehicles in a game?
08:10|-|glx changed nick to glx|away
08:20<dihedral|work>TrueBrain: i think i may have found a sav - i shall check :-)
08:20<dihedral|work>laters ladies
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08:31<@Bjarni><fjb> Is there a way to get the stats of the vehicles in a game? <--- there is the vehicle details window and the vehicle list window
08:32<@Bjarni>the company screen contains the vehicle count
08:32<@Bjarni>the replace window contains the number of vehicles of each type
08:32<@Bjarni>but apart from that... I don't think so
08:32<@Bjarni>but we are always open for good ideas ;)
08:32<@Bjarni>specially if they are followed by a diff
08:35<De_Ghost>copy and paste
08:35<De_Ghost>copy AND PASTE!!
08:35<De_Ghost>lol
08:39<@Bjarni>?
08:46|-|Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-28-254.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:52<De_Ghost>that patch
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08:58<fjb>Bjarni: Thank you.
08:59<@Bjarni>you shouldn't thank me
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08:59<@Bjarni>you should write a patch to give even more stats :P
09:00<fjb>I thougt about a possibility to list all vehicles in an NewGRF with all the Details like loading speed etc.
09:00<fjb>:-)
09:00<fjb>I have to understand the source first...
09:00<@Bjarni>hey
09:00<@Bjarni>that's my idea
09:00<@Bjarni>and I too haven't coded anything regarding this :P
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09:01<fjb>I have more ideas I would like to code, but C derived languages are not that userfriendly... :-)
09:02<@Bjarni>I saw a poll about which programming language people prefer to use
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09:02<@Bjarni>most people prefer C# or PHP
09:03<@Bjarni>surprisingly more people prefer Brainfuck than C
09:03<fjb>They don't know the better modern languages. And people can only vote for things they know.
09:04<fjb>Brainfuck is cool, there is no chance to understand what you wrote. So just write anything and forget about it. :-)
09:04<@Bjarni>heh, people complain about the lack of java in the poll :D
09:04<SpComb>was there a Python option?
09:04<@Bjarni>yeah
09:05<fjb>Java is not that better than C. The Syntax is like C extendet. Not much better to nderstand.
09:05<@Bjarni>http://newz.dk/ <-- it's in Danish, but I guess the names are universal
09:05<@Bjarni>people didn't say anything about Java being better, just that it's missing from the list
09:06<@Bjarni>more people prefer whitespace than ML and TCL
09:06<fjb>What is Andet?
09:07<@Bjarni>"the rest"
09:07<fjb>ML ist hard to understand if you don't care about funktional programming.
09:07<@Bjarni>some people read that as "I can't code" :P
09:07<fjb>Ah. :-)
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09:07<@Bjarni>oh
09:08<@Bjarni>that reminds me
09:08<@Bjarni>I got to check out some functional programming before the lecture tomorrow
09:08<fjb>OcaML is a really interesting version of ML.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i like pascal syntax much better than c syntax
09:08<fjb>Me too.
09:08[~]SpComb likes Python syntax
09:09<Eddi|zuHause2>especially the := vs. = matter prevents so many errors
09:09[~]Bjarni voted C
09:09<@Bjarni>though I thought of CLIPS as a worthy candidate as well
09:09<fjb>Pascal syntax is far better to understand, but you have to type more and people tend to be lazy, especially if they don't habe to take care about the code.
09:09<fjb>Common LISP?
09:10<@Bjarni>no :P
09:10<fjb>I don't know CLIST then.
09:10<Eddi|zuHause2>my father programmed in clipper most of the time
09:10<@Bjarni>CLIPS it's a functional coding language
09:10<fjb>LISP is the grandmother of all functional languages.
09:11<@Bjarni>http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html
09:11<Eddi|zuHause2>no, lambda calculus is :p
09:11<@Bjarni>it's not as general as C or ML though
09:11<@Bjarni>but really cool once you have a task suited for it
09:12<@Bjarni>http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS-FAQ <-- basically the first question is what you wants to ask ;)
09:12<fjb>Something like Prolog. Long ago I did some things in Prolog.
09:13<Eddi|zuHause2>prolog is funny
09:13<@Bjarni>heh
09:13<fjb>The first Prolog interpreter was inplemented in LISP. :-)
09:13<@Bjarni>why?
09:13<@Bjarni>self torture?
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09:14<Eddi|zuHause2>there is a lisp interpreter implemented in lisp
09:14<fjb>No, Prolog is really fun. You feed it with something and are astonished what you get in the and.
09:14<@Bjarni>I like the first expert system. It was made to emulate expert workers' minds and it was based on the idea that everything is based on rules
09:14<@Bjarni>it didn't work
09:15<@Bjarni>turned out that experts knows stuff that you can't set up as rules :P
09:15<fjb>Japanese third generation computing relied on expert system. That was way back in the 80s...
09:16<@Bjarni>say like driving a car... you can do that based on rules, but to do it right, you need some information on what goes on in the car to do it right
09:16<@Bjarni>like one fact that you have to know in order to drive right is the speed limit :)
09:17<@Bjarni>you can't set up a rule to tell the speed limit as it's just a fact, not a rule by itself
09:17<fjb>Driving a car is no good example. That is one of the few things that can really be put into ruules. (If you have enough sensors to get all needed information)
09:17<@Bjarni>then you need sensors
09:17<@Bjarni>well
09:17<@Bjarni>yeah, I guess you are right
09:18<@Bjarni>anyway I think you get the idea that rules alone isn't always enough to "emulate an expert"
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09:19<fjb>You need sensors for every kind of control system.
09:19<@Bjarni>yeah
09:19<@Bjarni>and you need to know what to do with the sensors
09:19<fjb>Even an expert needs sensors.
09:19<fjb>Put a blind driver in a car...
09:19<@Bjarni>I mean what to do with the sensor outputs
09:20<fjb>Expert systems work if you have enough sensors.
09:20<@Bjarni><fjb> Put a blind driver in a car... <-- it happens... some guy in Barcelona bribed himself into getting a drivers license even though he was nearly blind
09:20<fjb>:-)
09:21<@Bjarni>it took a few years to catch him as the police said it was ok when they saw the license and he just stared at where he presumed the officer's head would be
09:21<fjb>Nearly blind is not blind. Better a bad sensor than no sensor. :-)
09:21<@Bjarni>surprisingly he didn't have more accidents than other drivers in Barcelona
09:21<fjb>I guess he didn't drive that much.
09:22<@Bjarni>nearly blind as he could make out if there was a car in front of him if he was tailgating
09:22<@Bjarni>if there was say 3 meters between the cars, then he could not see it anymore
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09:22<fjb>Sometimes that is enough information. It's like driving in fog.
09:23<@Bjarni>you can't drive in fog that's so dense
09:23<fjb>You can... :-)
09:23<@Bjarni>not safely
09:23<@Bjarni>you will have to assume that the road is clear because you can't see it good enough
09:23<fjb>Who spoke about safely?
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09:25<fjb>It depends on you evironment how good your sensors have to be. Sometimes it is enough to tell bright from dark.
09:25<@Bjarni>I once saw a woman in the news telling about the fog. She said that she was following another car and just followed the taillights because the fog prevented her from seeing the road at that speed. When the car in front of her lost sense of the road and ended up on a field, she turned into the field as well
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09:26<@Bjarni>the guy in the front car was a local taxi driver and he knew the road... it happened anyway
09:26<hylje>cars are very unsafe
09:26<hylje>news at 11
09:26<fjb>That was bad luck.
09:26<hylje>while one may think cars are safe
09:27<@Bjarni>the police called it reckless driving as both cars were speeding
09:27<hylje>why does one shrug when newspaper says a car crashed off a cliff
09:27<@Bjarni>driving like 90 when the conditions allowed like 40
09:27<hylje>compared to when a train is completely destroyed
09:27<fjb>An expert system driving the car could have done better, think about sensor humans don't have. Things like radar oder ir sensors.
09:27<hylje>or an airplane, which is thought as slightly unsafe
09:28<fjb>Most modern planes can safely land without a pilot.
09:28<@Bjarni>yeah
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09:29<@Bjarni>imagine that the pressure drops and everybody on board dies. The plane can at least in theory just continue to the destination and land
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09:29<hylje>haha
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09:29<fjb>That are kind of expert system. They have sensors and rules. And the can fly a plane safely almost anywhere.
09:29<@Bjarni>plane saved even though everybody died.... it would at least be better than a crash since nobody would get hit on the ground
09:31<fjb>That happend in Greece some years ago. The people on board where dead or almost dead an the airplane reached the destination airport. Sadly it was not programmed to land by itself. The pilot had have to tell it to the autopilot. But he couldn't anymore. So the plane eventually crashed when the fuel was empty.
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09:37<dihedral>TrueBrain: FS#1278
09:40<fjb>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
09:41<Eddi|zuHause2>well, if only one had set up remote access (ssh) :p
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09:42<dihedral>looks like Zeus was not too happy... :-P
09:45<dihedral>my image did not upload correctly to fs!
09:46<fjb>Yes. It was thought about to control airplanes exclusivly from the ground to prevent terror attacks. But Airplanes nned a Pilot when some thing unexpected happens.
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09:49<Brianetta>fjb: One problem - if the terrorists decide to hijack the ground control station, they have plenty of planes to use as missiles and might even survive.
09:49<SmatZ>hello
09:49<Brianetta>SmatZ.
09:49<@Bjarni>SmatZ!
09:49<@Bjarni>long time no see
09:49<SmatZ>Brianetta Bjarni heelllloooooo :-)
09:50<SmatZ>oh yes
09:51<fjb>Brianetta: That was the problem of that stupid idea. Next time terrorist use a truck and every truck has to have remote control? Stupid idea...
09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>well, trains have a button that you need to press (or release) every X seconds, to notice if the driver fell asleep
09:52<Eddi|zuHause2>planes could do the same, and start autopilot then
09:52<Brianetta>Eddi, they fell unconscious whilst under autopilot
09:52<Brianetta>They didn't wake up again
09:52<fjb>Yes, but a train just stops than. No problem for a Zeppelin either. But an airplane?
09:53<Brianetta>fjb: Aircraft could descend to a safe altitude
09:53<Brianetta>but then somebody at ATC would have to clear a path, send for an escort, etc
09:53<fjb>Just think abou high mountains...
09:53<Brianetta>Besides, on a long haul, the pilot might not even be in the cockpit
09:53<Eddi|zuHause2>autopilot should alredy know about those
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09:54<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: and then what? A train can stop if there is no one driving it. It wouldn't make sense to just turn off the plane engines and activate all brakes
09:54<Brianetta>Newer airliners can complete a journey without a pilot
09:55<Brianetta>but at present they have to be told to doo so in advance
09:55<Brianetta>and a pilot is, of course, on hand to take over in a contingency
09:55<fjb>Btw, what do planes in OpenTTD do if the can not land? Do the fly endlessly?
09:55<Brianetta>fjb: They explode
09:55<@Bjarni>we need an AI to take over in case something goes wrong
09:55<@Bjarni>fjb: they crash
09:55<Brianetta>fjb: Make a plane, get it in the air, and demolish its airports
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09:56<Brianetta>They "run out of fuel" very quickly
09:56<fjb>The aotopilot should be programmed to land without a pilot.
09:56<Brianetta>fjb: Many autopilots can't
09:57<Brianetta>THey can maintain altitude, speed and heading to a determined program
09:57<Brianetta>which includes making turns, but not landing
09:57<fjb>I once demolished one of the airports while building a new one. No plane crashed, maybe I just build the new one quick enough.
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2>landing is a difficult task, i assume such a program gets very expensive
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2>so a cheap flight company might not have those
09:58<fjb>Modern autopilots are able to land the plane if the airport guidance system support it.
09:58<Brianetta>fjb: Some modern autopilots, you mean
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, and then terrorists capture the airport and modify the reported height
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>to make the plane crash
09:59<Brianetta>Eddi: They don't report height. That was a Die Hard 2 mistake.
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah ;)
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>i thought that was stupid also :p
09:59<Brianetta>The aircraft tells the airport how high it is
10:00<Brianetta>and if the airport thinks it's very different, a human is called
10:00<fjb>The plane is not under remotecontrol while landing. The autopilot does it of it's own. The ground control just helps it.
10:04<dihedral>Brianetta: can i source a file in tcl more than once?
10:04<Brianetta>yes, but it will be run more than once
10:04<Brianetta>Defined procedures and so on will be fine
10:04<Brianetta>but variables will be re-initialised, and any logic will be run again
10:04<fjb>Is there an ovwerview of the OpenTTD source anywhere?
10:05<Brianetta>so if the file opens network connections or files, you might want to think twice
10:06<dihedral>so if i have the ! commands source a tcl file, i could add them without having to restart autopilot
10:07<dihedral>would the procedures be redefined then if they are in a sourced file?
10:07<hylje>fjb: svn.openttd.org
10:08<fjb>Thank you, that helps a bit.
10:09<dihedral>Brianetta: just trying to find a way i can make amendments ( e.g. adding features) without having to restart autopilot and with that the entire game
10:09<fjb>What do passenger do? Do they enter the first vehicle and the exit at the next stop?
10:09<dihedral>yep
10:09<hylje>ye
10:09<Brianetta>dihedral: Like I said, rewrite it. It was designed as a one-shot program, because that's how I run my own server,
10:10<dihedral>Brianetta: i shall listen to you for this time :-D
10:10<Brianetta>(:
10:12<fjb>How do you hadle big cities? Do you link single bus stops like a star around the train station or airport?
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10:16<Brianetta>doesn't really matter
10:16<Brianetta>unless you play with transfer orders, they just get off at the next stop. Doesn't matter if it's another bus stop or an airport.
10:18<fjb>Transfer orders don't prevent the passengers to leave the bus at the next stop. Or did I miss something?
10:19<dihedral>transfer + full load
10:20<fjb>But then it waits till it is full. It doesn't just catch the waiting passengers.
10:20<dihedral>it does
10:21<dihedral>i.e. it does not wait until it's full
10:21<dihedral>it says in the order (transfer and take cargo)
10:22<dihedral>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Transfer_order%2C_setting_up_feeder_systems
10:22<fjb>Oh, I have to try it.
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10:23<dihedral>reading the wiki or the transfer order?
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10:26<fjb>Trying transfer order. I read in the wiki, but it looks like i missen some important things.
10:26<fjb>I only knew how transfer unload works. But I thought transfer full load would wait till the vehicle is full.
10:27<fjb>Now I hve to set up enough busses.
10:27<fjb>have
10:29<svip>Bjarni, here is a friendly warning; http://www.isarapix.com/pix5/1191249757.png
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10:30<dihedral>svip - nice one
10:30<svip>;o
10:31<fjb>Why do all the call back only have numbers and no readable nick name?
10:32<dihedral>what?
10:33<fjb>I just read callback 14A. What ist that? Can it not have a descriptive name, too?
10:33<dihedral>where do you read that?
10:34<+glx>fjb: they have full name in source
10:34<@Belugas> /** Called to determine the color of an industry. */
10:34<@Belugas> CBID_INDUSTRY_DECIDE_COLOUR = 0x14A,
10:35<+glx>but we like to "hide" stuff in commit log :)
10:35<dihedral>that's what he's talking about...!
10:36|-|Tobin [~tobin@c58-107-50-36.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
10:36<Eddi|zuHause2><fjb> Why do all the call back only have numbers and no readable nick name? <- because the Patch developers are assembler freaks
10:36<Eddi|zuHause2>nothing has descriptive names in assembler world
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>PS: why the inconsistent use of "color" vs. "colour"?
10:38<dihedral>us vs uk
10:38<dihedral>:-P
10:38<dihedral>or some us guy pretending to be a snob just because he went to oxford or cambridge :-)
10:39<@Belugas>there are no us guys in ottd dev team :)
10:39<dihedral>:-D
10:39<dihedral>ca
10:39<dihedral>it's all the same for europeans...
10:39[~]dihedral coughts
10:40<dihedral>:-D
10:41<fjb>dihedral: I read it in the changelog.
10:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i know what the "color" vs. "colour" issue is about, i was asking why using two different spellings in two consecutive lines
10:42<fjb>How platform dependent are the patches?
10:42<+glx>because it was CBID_INDUSTRY_DECIDE_COLOR before a recent consistency check in enum names
10:42<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause2: was just trying to be funny... a little
10:43<Eddi|zuHause2>you failed :p
10:43<dihedral>well - yes...
10:43<dihedral>noticed - but thanks
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10:43<+glx><fjb> How platform dependent are the patches? <-- what do you mean?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: what is a platform in your context?
10:44<fjb>Do they depend on a specific processor architecture?
10:44<+glx>patches are just text files
10:45<fjb>I think I have to look at the patches more closely.
10:47<@Bjarni>svip: that's obscene
10:47<fjb>Looks like grf is a container for grafics, sounds (which I didn't get to work on FreeBSD yet), ansome text.
10:47<@Bjarni>you have been to Sweden???
10:48<svip>:O :( Yes.
10:48<svip>;-; I must confess.
10:48<@Bjarni>but it's full of....
10:48<@Bjarni>Swedes...
10:48<svip>Swedes?!
10:48<+glx>fjb: oh you were talking about newgrf?
10:48<@Bjarni>yeah
10:48<@Bjarni>Swedish people speaking Swedish
10:49<svip>I never got further than Malmø.
10:49<@Bjarni>I have been in Malmö once
10:49<@Bjarni>sorry, twice
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10:50<@Bjarni>got to the station and then headed back home
10:50<fjb>glx: Yes, what else are callback for? Maybe I did miss something. I'm still now to the world of TTD.
10:50<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: a newgrf is something entirely different from a patch
10:51<+glx>newgrf are platform independant (they are "interpreted" by TTDP or OTTD)
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10:52<fjb>Ok, I think I confused some things.
10:52<+glx>the windows/dos stuff is just dependant on original TTD files used (different palette)
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10:52<@Bjarni>and then I have been in Helsingborg and Markaryd
10:52<fjb>I just read about callbacks in the changelog.
10:52<@Bjarni>oh, and Ystad too
10:53<+glx>well the callback recently added are not usable yet :P
10:53<fjb>Will OpenTTD be independent from the original files in the future?
10:54<@Bjarni>maybe
10:54<@Bjarni>if somebody will finally get arsed to actually do some graphics that's not based on the TTD files
10:54<@Bjarni>and sounds
10:54<@Bjarni>technically we wouldn't need sounds or music, but then the game would be a bit lame
10:55<fjb>glx: I just want to understand the whole callback system in the first place. I don't care if a callback is usable yet. I just want to know how callbacks work. The rest comes later.
10:55<Eddi|zuHause2>it's like a swede going to a german fuel station demanding "öl" [swedish, meaning beer], but in german "Öl" means oil
10:55<@Bjarni>it happened or is it a joke?
10:55<fjb>I play without sound all the time and really didn't miss anything.
10:55<@Bjarni>btw it's "øl" in Danish
10:55<+glx>fjb: read the doc on http://wiki.ttdpatch.net
10:56<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i know a swede, who said he demanded "öl" in a bar, and the barkeeper looked at him strangely
10:56<@Bjarni>fjb: heh. Once the music broke on the mac port and I didn't notice... as luck would happen, I muted the computer most of the at that time
10:56<@Bjarni>and always while playing
10:57<fjb>glx: Thank you.
10:57<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: hehe
10:57<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: we had great fun out of the fact that our German text book used the word "babyöl"
10:57<@Bjarni>well, some people thought it was great fun
10:58<@Bjarni>... for a long time
10:58<@Bjarni>:/
10:58<fjb>Bjarni: I didn't find out why there is no sound on FreeBSd. But I didn't care enough to investigate it. I prefer to play the game or think about what could be enhanced. :-)
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10:58<@Bjarni>like sounds? :)
10:59<fjb>No sound. :-)
10:59<@Bjarni>I know one improvement that I could use
10:59<fjb>Sounds tend to annoy me, when I think about the best route for the new railway.
10:59<@Bjarni>no users, who writes a novel that requests a feature I already implemented ages ago
11:00<@Bjarni>it takes forever to read and figure out what they mean :(
11:00<fjb>:-) Educate the users.
11:00<Brianetta>yes
11:00<Brianetta>I have a LART
11:01<fjb>:-)
11:01<Brianetta>https://tyneside.lug.org.uk/fetchfile.php?fileid=18
11:01<@Bjarni>whoa... I wanted an improvement, not a full time job
11:01<Brianetta>log in as guest, no password
11:01<fjb>Who still knows what a LART is? The young people don't know it anymore, I guess.
11:01<Brianetta>A clue-by-four
11:01<Brianetta>and my own personal invention, the grammar hammer
11:02<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: i can imagine :p
11:03<fjb>Nice LART.
11:03<Brianetta>I know.
11:03<fjb> /dev/lart
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11:49<Wolf01>hello
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11:50<Digitalfox>Hello :)
11:50<Digitalfox>What software do you guys use to create dvd covers? I'm talking of printing on dvd's images..
11:53<Rubidium>wonders how one could print on something as virtual as an DVD image
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11:54<SpComb>what software could I use to create cover images for my CD .iso files?
11:55<SpComb>oh right, I extrapolated that from Rubidium's comment, but it was actually what Digitalfox asked
11:56<dihedral>how is that Rubidium
11:56<dihedral>just uploaded the data again
11:56<Digitalfox>Yes i have miss explain myself.. What i mean is that i have a printer that supports printing on cd/dvd directly ( canon 4300 ), and the software that cames with it is a little weak for resizing images to use, so i would like to know with software to you use
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11:57<Digitalfox>*do you use?
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12:28<Ammller>[18:56] <SpComb> what software could I use to create cover images for my CD .iso files? <--- do you like to sell OTTD?
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12:28<Greyscale>Ammller, lol
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12:28|-|mode/#openttd [+v glx|away] by ChanServ
12:28<Greyscale>SpComb, bad. BAD
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12:28<Ammller>hmm, why not
12:28[~]SpComb doesn't understand
12:29<Greyscale>Ammller is suggesting you're selling OTTD
12:29<SpComb>no reason I couldn't sell OpenTTD on CDs, but it wasn't what I was talking about
12:29<Greyscale>Isn't there?
12:29|-|glx changed nick to Guest494
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12:29<Greyscale>if there is, there should be a reason
12:29<SpComb>unless it's some bizarre variation of the GPL, no
12:30<Greyscale>Hmm
12:30<Greyscale>making money selling nothing
12:30<Greyscale>wiiiierd
12:30<SpComb>if you distribute a binary version of OpenTTD, you just have to include an offer for the source code
12:30<SpComb>you're welcome to package OpenTTD in some nice way, perhaps add a bit of extra value in some way, and then sell it
12:30<SpComb>although at that point it might get a little risky what with the atari/reverse-engineering thing
12:31<fjb>But who would buy OpenTTD, which is not funktional without some origanal files from TTD?
12:31<SpComb>you'd have to solve that problem before you sold it
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12:38[~]Hendikins decides he might actually play ottd for the first time in ages
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12:47<gynterk>hello, is it possible that 'non-stop' for trains is disabled somehow? since its not working for me
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12:47<Greyscale>SpBot, I could see that work if you engineered new replacement files you need to run it
12:47<gynterk>Orders show 'Go non-sop to mystation' but it'll still stop there
12:48<@Bjarni>it's possible that non-stop is broken and it's possible that you are using it wrong
12:48<@Bjarni>enable patch like non-stop in patch settings
12:49<gynterk>uhm.. what are patch settings ?
12:50<@Bjarni>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Configure_patches_window
12:50<@Bjarni>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/ConfigureStationPatches#TTDPatch_compatible_non-stop_handling <-- in particular this one
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12:53<gynterk>hmm
12:53<gynterk>but in internet server, administrator has to enable it right ?
12:53<@Bjarni>hmm
12:54<gynterk>since I enabled it and after logging in it's disabled
12:54<@Bjarni>some of the settings can be changed by the client and only by the server
12:54<@Bjarni>I think this is a server setting, though I'm not entirely sure
12:54<Amixwoktest>hey
12:54<@Bjarni>hi Amixwoktest
12:55<Amixwoktest>hows life?
12:55<Amixwoktest>:)
12:55<@Bjarni>well
12:55<@Bjarni>it's in the present
12:55<@Bjarni>luckily not only in the past
12:55<@Bjarni>and it's likely in the future as well
12:56<Amixwoktest>hehe
12:56<@Bjarni>so now you know when to look for it ;)
12:56<Amixwoktest>wiseman
12:56<@Bjarni>you are right
12:56<@Bjarni>people do claim me to be wise
12:57<Amixwoktest>nice description on www.osnews.com about amiga situation
12:57<Amixwoktest>http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18703/Three-Men-a-Cow-and-the-Beating-of-the-Dead-Horse
12:58<@Bjarni>yikes
12:58<@Bjarni>you want me to read all of that?
12:58<Amixwoktest>hehe
12:58<Amixwoktest>its your future
12:58<Amixwoktest>your choice :)
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12:58<@Bjarni>hehe
12:59<@Bjarni>I guess I asked for that one :P
12:59<Amixwoktest>hehe
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13:33<Hendikins>One day I'd love to be able to set a resolution of 2560x1024.
13:35<boekabart>Hendikins: search the forum, there is a simple patch that enables that
13:35<fjb>I find some text hard to read even at 1280 x 1024.
13:36<Hendikins>Can't be stuffed patching. I'll just have ottd on one monitor and IRC on the other :P
13:36<@Bjarni>it depends on the size of the monitor
13:36<Hendikins>Exactly.
13:36<@Bjarni>basically the question is the size of the pixel
13:36<@Bjarni>not the number of pixels
13:36<Hendikins>I've got a 19" TFT on the right and 17" TFT on the left, which will be just fine
13:37<@Bjarni>even 640x480 can be hard to read on a 4" monitor
13:37<fjb>I know. I have a 17"-TFT.
13:37<@Bjarni>I don't have a 4" monitor ;)
13:39<boekabart>Bjarni: but wouldn't you love to have one
13:40<fjb>I also have a 2"-Monitor (320 x 240).
13:40<@Bjarni>I would xD
13:40<@Bjarni>there is one in the lab
13:40<@Bjarni>ok, maybe it's 5"
13:40<@Bjarni>standard VGA
13:41<@Bjarni>it can be connected to the robots so the boot process can be seen (and tell where it goes wrong)
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13:42<fjb>I should try OpenTTD for Windows Mobile on my 2". :-)
13:43<globester>rofl
13:43<globester>play a 2048x2048 :P
13:44<@Bjarni>do you have good eyes?
13:44<@Bjarni>because the text will be pretty small
13:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11191 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#1227]: GLS_ACTIVATION stage must be done immediatly after GLS_RESERVE stage, before the GLS_RESERVE stage for the next newgrf.
14:00<SpComb>is it possible to load in custom newgrfs from locations other than where the default grfs (sample.cat, trg1r.grf, etc) are?
14:01<SpComb>as in, specifify a path to a file outside the ./data/ dir
14:01<+glx>they must be in a subdir of data
14:01<SpComb>and the default grfs have to be directly in data?
14:01<+glx>yes
14:02<SpComb>I remember seeing some kind of support for a secondary data dir in OpenTTD
14:02<Rubidium>there are several places where the data dir can be in trunk
14:02<boekabart>well
14:02<+glx>but you can have "many" data dir
14:02<Rubidium>so you can effectively do so
14:03<boekabart>in windows: my Documents\Openttd\data is one of them
14:03[~]glx puts all grfs in this one :)
14:03<boekabart>(that's where I keep my original game grfs/cat and my newGrfs)
14:03<boekabart>then every 'checkout' has it's own svn grfs in the bin/data - works like a charm
14:04<+glx>that way I can have an infinite number of working copies
14:04<SpComb>I just want to keep all of the base grfs in one place in MyOTTD, and then just have custom newgrfs per-server
14:04<+glx>using trunk or 0.5.3?
14:05<SpComb>ideally I'd want to retain support for as many versions as possible, although I don't really need the really old ones
14:05<Rubidium>in 0.5.3 you've got the possibility for secondary data dirs
14:06<Rubidium>it's somewhere in Makefile(.config)
14:06<Rubidium>in trunk you can configure them using ./configure
14:07<SpComb>alternatively I could just have a real data/ dir, and symlink the base grfs into there
14:08<+glx>you may have problems with openttd grfs
14:09<SpComb>does the openttd.grf change between versions?
14:09<Rubidium>it can
14:09<SpComb>then I'll go for the symlink-per-file mode
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14:30<mattt_>Has anyone ever suggested "flatwall" tunnel entrance/exits so they can be built over top of? It would be kinda like an extension to the build on slopes patch. Rather than have the "rounded" entrance/exits, it's just be a flat wall with a perpendicular rail over top (or road possibly).
14:31<Rubidium>yes
14:32<SmatZ>isn't it in ttdpatch?
14:32<Rubidium>though no-one with good enough coding skills has implemented it
14:32<mattt_>hum
14:33<DaleStan>Not quite. You can build arbitrary rail over rail tunnel entrances. I think rail over road tunnel entrances is in the todo, but road over tunnel entrances was, I believe, deemed "too glitchy".
14:34<mattt_>Hm.. I thought I tried, unsuccessfully, to build rail over a tunnel entrance last night
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14:34<Rubidium>as you might not know, DaleStan is talking about ttdp, not ottd
14:34<mattt_>oh
14:35<DaleStan>(That was an answer to "Isn't that in TTDPatch?")
14:35<mattt_>ah ha
14:35<SmatZ>:-) mighty DaleStan still watching the channel, to answer quick any TTDPatch related questions
14:35<mattt_>I didn't realize ttdp was still actively developed
14:37<DaleStan>Not anywhere near as active as Open, but yes, still active.
14:39<mattt_>hm.. what about "lighting up" a vehicles path?
14:40<mattt_>that'd be a useful debugging tool for huge rail networks
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14:48<fjb>How many passengers do appear at a bus stop? How is it calculated?
14:50<Rubidium>depends on the amount generated by the tiles (houses and such) around it
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14:53<+glx>rating is important too
14:54<fjb>Hm, the better the rating the more passengers appear?
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14:56<fjb>And what does "acceptet freight: [2/8 Passengers]" mean?
14:58<fjb>I guess the streets in the city are too short for the amount of busses I would need to move the passengers from the bus stop to the railway station. :-/
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14:59<Rubidium>you need at least 8/8 (sum) <cargo> in the catchment of a station before it accepts it
15:01<fjb>Is 8 always the nedded amount?
15:01<fjb>needed
15:02<SpComb>bleh, the configuration file parser that I'm using doesn't like the 'newgrfname.grf\n' style that OpenTTD uses :(
15:04<Rubidium>fjb: the sum of that for all tiles in the catchment area must be more than 8/8
15:04<fjb>Hm, and why does clone vehicle in the depot not also clone the refitting for a new cargo?
15:05<fjb>Rubidium: Thank you. The minimum needed is always 8? Or is it sometimes different?
15:12<Prof_Frink>fjb: The minimum needed is eight eigths, i.e. one.
15:13<fjb>I just wantet to know if its always eights.
15:14<fjb>I guess I slowly understand how transporting passengers work. Know I have always rushour in my testcity.
15:27<fjb>And who made that stupid road layout? That city authoritiv should be fired.
15:29<Phazorx>fjb: patch options have control over city street grid
15:29<Phazorx>and the best option is not permit city to lay any roads and design it yourself
15:29<Phazorx>I, for example, like 2x3 grid on most cases rather than 3x3 or 2x2
15:31|-|dihedral|away changed nick to dihedral
15:31<fjb>There is so few time for all things to do. I never have enough time to also lay out the streets of the fast growing citys.
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15:32<dihedral>hello
15:32<fjb>Hi
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15:37<fjb>I need more busses...
15:38<SpComb>you need to start a new game for any newgrfs that you add to be loaded?
15:38<SpComb>and how important is the order of the newgrf files? Can I get by without implementing that aspect?
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15:39<SpComb>if not, MyOTTD now has rudimentary NewGRF support
15:39<DaleStan>Doesn't Open handle getting the order right automatically?
15:40<SpComb>the in-game UI at lets you change the order of them
15:40<fjb>You can add new GRFs while the game is running.
15:41<+glx>fjb: not recommended
15:41<Phazorx>can add while running, most GRFs w/o restrictions at least, some elements are only used for starying new game
15:41<+glx>bad things may happen, like stuck trains or worse
15:41<fjb>What is the right order? I think there is not always a right oder. It depends what you want to use from wich GRF.
15:41<Phazorx>SpComb: order is relevant as some grfs my override actions of others
15:42<SpComb>great, because this config file parser is inadequate in many ways... I suspect it can't keep the config file keys in the same order that they were in the file
15:43<Phazorx>which confige parser, Progman's?
15:43<SpComb>python stdlib's ConfigParser
15:44<SpComb>it also choked on the "some.grf" without any "= value" until I monkey-patched in a new regexp
15:44<SpComb>and by default it lowercases all keys, thus killing the case-sensitive newgrf filenames
15:45<fjb>Better write a new parser...
15:47<SpComb>but you can now upload new .grf files, enable/disable them and set the parameters
15:47<Ammller>SpComb: what about uploading saves?
15:48<Ammller>and I have still 500er
15:48<SpComb>500 error on what page?
15:48<Ammller>every
15:51<SpComb>right
15:51<SpComb>I also need to fix up all the existing servers to use the new data folder
15:54<SpComb>there
15:54<SpComb>I think I even managed to do it without wiping out any data
15:56<fjb>SpComb: Waht are you programming?
15:59<fjb>Help! I need bigger busses! But where to get them?
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16:02<dihedral>Rubidium - are you around?
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16:19<SpComb>Ammller: now you can upload savegames
16:20<SpComb>fjb: MyOTTD, see the topic in the General OpenTTD section
16:20<Rubidium>dihedral: no
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: try making a newgrf
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>or use an existing one
16:22<Ammller>fjb: 4LV
16:23<SpComb>another thing that I've been wondering about is that since I have all the newgrfs on the server, it would be really easy to provide some kind of .zip package of them for download - but then you have licence issues
16:23<Ammller>indeed
16:23<Ammller>you need also the readmes
16:24<SpComb>in theory, you could have the user tick a "I assert that providing this grf file for download is legal" and somehow try and shift the blame onto them
16:24<SpComb>that as well
16:24<Ammller>or license files
16:24<+glx>better use a tar (no need to untar it to use it)
16:25<SpComb>technical detail, doesn't solve the legal side of things
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i guess for legality stuff you should communicate with the authors directly
16:26<Ammller>SpComb: it should be possible to upload a archive, so we could also upload the readmes and license files
16:26<Ammller>something simular to the grf pack of #openttdcoop
16:26<SpComb>it would be the users uploading the GRFs to my server, not me providing them
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>similar </klugscheißer>
16:27<SpComb>(well, providing some convient set of common NewGRFs for easy use is planned)
16:27<SpComb>just dump a bunch of NewGRFs into some folder and symlink to them
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16:28<SpComb>I'm assuming that sticking a bunch of newgrfs onto my server and letting users load them into their savegames doesn't infringe on any licenses
16:28<Eddi|zuHause2>as long as the license does not state "do not use with OTTD"
16:29<Ammller>Eddi|zuHause2: something else then oskars grfs?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause2>i only heard tales about those...
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16:31<fjb>Ammller: I'm already using 4LV, but the busses are till too small.
16:32<fjb>I wonder why people forbit the use of their GRFs with OpenTTD. :-(
16:32<fjb>forbid
16:33<Ammller>because they don't like to participate on a "illegal" software ;)
16:33<svippy>:|
16:34<fjb>They don't participate if they do not especially allow it.
16:35<fjb>The other thing is how much of OpenTTD could be considered illigal. It looks like most parts have been rewritten.
16:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't really matter, it's still "based on" or a "derived work"
16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>where the initial step (reverse engineering and putting the result under GPL) is the legally questionable part
16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>only nobody felt the need [or wanted to invest the money] to clarify that part
16:40<fjb>Is the reverse engeneered part still in the code base? Or has it been rewritten since?
16:40<Wolf01>'night
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause2>you cannot prove that every part has been eliminated
16:43<Eddi|zuHause2>just search for variables called "unk*"
16:44<fjb>It should be provable by the cvslogs.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>!openttd commit 1
16:44<SpComb>there, I can drop .grfs into a dir and they will be show up in the list of available newgrfs for everyone
16:45<_42_>Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
16:45<_42_>Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
16:45<fjb>BSD people proved the it doesn't contain eine UNIX code. (But UNIX contains much BSD code).
16:45<Eddi|zuHause2>there, the first 975 revisions are lost
16:45<fjb>:-(
16:45<Ammller>SpComb: thats only usefull, if you let us download them
16:46<Ammller>else its better, if we can upload the grfs
16:46<SpComb>Ammller: well, they're just the most common ones grabbed off http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/GRF_list
16:47<SpComb>but yes, I could research the licensing of each one manually, and provide more info/downloads
16:49<SpComb>but I'm not at all sure if I can provide user-uploaded grfs for download
16:49<Ammller>you can't
16:49<Ammller>but you could provide user uploaded archives
16:50<Ammller>or the user can self share them
16:50<SpComb>then again, if the globals newgrfs are maintained well enough, nobody should need to upload their own ones, and I can provide the global ones for download
16:50<SpComb>not sure letting the user upload an archive, and then providing that for download would help
16:50<Ammller>I made simular work for #openttdcoop: http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the least you can do is provide grfcrawler links
16:51<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause2: I need to start UDP-querying localhost to get info like the NewGRF IDs
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>aren't there already like half a dozen libraries that do that?
16:52<SpComb>probably, but I haven't gotten around to it yet
16:52<SpComb>there should be a console command for it :/
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>well, provide the patch ;(
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>;)
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16:53<SpComb>some kind of programmatic IPC interface for OpenTTD would be cool...
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>a what?
16:54<SpComb>lots of things that could be changed inside OpenTTD that would making writing the MyOTTD daemon a lot easier
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16:54<SpComb>replace the console with a binary command/response protocol, and expand it a bit to provide more info
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16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm so glad that you volunteer for this ;)
16:54<SpComb>well, not replace, but add it as an alternative of some sort
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you can replace it, if you hook the console into that system afterwards
16:55<SpComb>well, writing something like that would be a distinct possibility, perhaps at some point in the future, who knows
16:56<Eddi|zuHause2>it's just another backend...
16:56<SpComb>what's the newgrf/newgrf-static thing in openttd.cfg?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>newgrf-static are newgrfs that are forced to load in every game, even network games which do not have them
17:01<+glx>newgrf-static are newgrf that don't need to be on the server
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>it is limited to newgrfs that do not change game rules, only graphic replacements
17:01<+glx>only "safe" newgrf are allowed to be here
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>i use dutchcatw and stolentrees there
17:01<Ammller>hmm, there should be newgrf-static-before and ...after, else its not well useable
17:01<SpComb>so it's irrelevant for a dedicated server, and different clients can have different things in that section?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammller: you can change the order of static grfs in the newgrf settings
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>SpComb: yes, they are completely clientside
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammller: i believe the static grfs are loaded afterwards, what sense would a "before" make?
17:01<Ammller>i.e. bridges and road sets needs to be loaded earlier
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17:02<SpComb>but the conclusion is that MyOTTD would need to provide a set of global newgrfs, with URLs, licenses, authors, GrfCrawler links, etc that could then be downloaded as an archive and used on servers
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17:02<SpComb>as well as letting users upload their own .grfs, perhaps with links to where other people can then get it from
17:02<SpComb>or automatically from GrfCrawler
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17:03<Hendikins>Ah, nothing like running some trains of decent length
17:04<Ammller>GRFCrawler has only links to the grf, not more
17:04<fjb>But never build a twoway single track... :-(
17:04<Hendikins>I avoid single track period, but with trains that are 20 tiles long, you'd be nuts
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17:05<Hendikins>I found 4 decent coal mines within a 20x20 area, + running feeders from 2 more
17:06<gynterk>what is Min Profit in detailed performance rating dialog?
17:06<gynterk>and why it is 9
17:06<gynterk>0 *
17:06<fjb>I once build a small commu7tor line. There was not much space between the city and the coast...
17:07<fjb>Hendikins: You got lucky.
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17:07<Hendikins>fjb: Hell yes.
17:07<Hendikins>I'm running 6 trains on that route.
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17:09<+glx>gynterk: right clic on the line
17:11<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammller: bridge sets are usually game changing [speed limits etc.]
17:11<fjb>My single track problem is solved. The is an ugly brigde parallel to the coast. I don't have to live there. :-)
17:12|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12<Ammller>SpComb: dos grf aren't needed, I guess
17:12<SpComb>Ammller: dos grfs of/for what?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>if you use dos grfs on the server, all clients need to have dos grfs
17:13<Ammller>you have loaded 2 newbridges
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17:14<SpComb>right
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17:15[~]SpComb has sent an email to eis_os about API access to GRF Crawler
17:18<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: updated www.tv7norge.com today
17:18[~]SpComb goes to sleep
17:19<@Bjarni>great timing
17:19<@Bjarni>I just got back
17:19<@Bjarni>after leaving IRC for like two hours
17:20<@Bjarni>heh
17:21<@Bjarni>clicking "ansatte" changes the text on the "Serie guiden" button
17:21<@Bjarni>I don't think that is intended ;)
17:22|-|KouDy [~KouDy@85.207.64.178] has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com]
17:22<@Bjarni>nice phone number :)
17:22<Amixwoktest>hehe
17:22|-|gynterk [~gynter@88-196-200-147-dsl.rkv.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:22<@Bjarni>and I can see that you lowered the price
17:23<@Bjarni>it's not 100 kr/month anymore
17:23<@Bjarni>wow, free futurama :D
17:23|-|Greyscale [~Grey@host86-138-70-162.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:24<@Bjarni>but... what is popcorn?
17:24<Amixwoktest>yes
17:24<fjb>Why are signals on bridges not possible? :-(
17:24<Amixwoktest>from about 19.30 to 20.30, channel will be for free
17:24<@Bjarni>fjb: long story, but it's a complex matter
17:25<+glx>fjb: because bridges are like tunnels
17:25<+glx>ie black holes
17:25<@Bjarni>glx: now that leaves the question "why are signals in tunnels not possible?" :P
17:26<+glx>:)
17:26<Amixwoktest>you would need to add a bottom layer for that maybe?
17:26<@Bjarni>Amixwoktest: hmmm how do a one man TV channel handle news twice a day?
17:27<@Bjarni>Amixwoktest: as I said, it's a long and complex story, but we will make it possible.... some day... at least we plan to do that
17:27<Eddi|zuHause2>Amixwoktest: one level is not enough, since tunnels can cross on different levels
17:27<Eddi|zuHause2>(and at least theoretically, bridges can also)
17:27<@Bjarni>and it will likely not just be a new layer as tunnels needs to be able to cross each other at different heights
17:28<Amixwoktest>like in Locomotion
17:28<@Bjarni>and we need a tunnel building interface that's better than the one in simutrans
17:28<Amixwoktest>i hope you do it in a better way
17:28<@Bjarni>we will do it in a way that I approve
17:28<@Bjarni>(I hope)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i have never played locomotion
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17:28<@Bjarni>locomotion is windows only, so we should rule that one out right away
17:29<Amixwoktest>its like SimCity 2000
17:29<@Bjarni>too few of us can use it on the main OS
17:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: it's open source, if you do not approve, just fork out :p
17:29<Amixwoktest>which have a day and underground view
17:29<@Bjarni>like simutrans
17:30<@Bjarni>simutrans also allows crossing tunnels at different heights, but if you make use of that, then you are fucked if you need to modify it as you can't select which layer to edit
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>Amixwoktest: that means, if the land is sloped, the tunnel must be sloped also
17:30<Amixwoktest>wasnt TTD a competitive game to SimCity 2000
17:30<@Bjarni>like which layer to add a signal to
17:30<@Bjarni>Amixwoktest: hmmm how do a one man TV channel handle news twice a day?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>i think SC2000 had problems with crossing tunnels
17:31<@Bjarni>it had that
17:31<@Bjarni>I think
17:31<@Bjarni>at least the graphics displayed it as a X
17:31<@Bjarni>where the trains could turn
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>crossing subway, yes
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>but not crossing road tunnels (which had to be straight)
17:34<@Bjarni>LOL, some girl from New York bought an iPhone while they were expensive. Apple dropped the price by 40% and gave $100 back to the buyers of the expensive ones... now this girl sues Apple because $100 is not enough. She wants a million
17:40<@Bjarni>how can you guy a gadget and then the price is lowered $200 and you get a refund of $100 (which you aren't even entitled to get)... then how can you sue for a million?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>well, she can want whatever she likes, the question is if she gets it
17:40<@Bjarni>it's more than "I want my money back"
17:40<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: my channel will have 10 people running the channel when its ready in 2009
17:40<Amixwoktest>thats my goal
17:40<@Bjarni>but why try to battle with the news channels?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: that's part of the american way, if you do not demand way beyond your actual rights, you won't get what you actually deserve.
17:40<Amixwoktest>we wont
17:40<Digitalfox>WOW after a little code learning i was able to play with newindustries on OpenTTD and they are looking great, i didn't have any crash and they were looking to work ok :)
17:40<Amixwoktest>and norway have one of smallest tv marked in europe
17:40<Amixwoktest>lots of gaps to be filled
17:40<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind being able to watch this channel
17:40[~]Bjarni has 3 channels
17:40<@Bjarni>well, 3 Danish and 3-4 Swedish channels
17:40<@Bjarni>the Swedish channels aren't great though
17:40<Amixwoktest>:)
17:40<Amixwoktest>i have 3 swedish channels and 1 danish channel
17:41<@Bjarni>they are in Swedish and they appear to be aimed at.... well not my group
17:41<Amixwoktest>DR1 that is
17:41<@Bjarni>funny
17:41<@Bjarni>I have DR1 as well
17:41<fjb>Hey, now could watch tv together. :-)
17:41<fjb>you could
17:41<@Bjarni>Mondays at 17:30@ DR1: thomas the tank engine
17:42<@Bjarni>and it appears to be a new production from 2004
17:42<@Bjarni>they started transmitting them today
17:42<@Bjarni>it's only 10 minutes though
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17:42<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: you like trains?
17:42<Amixwoktest>trams?
17:42<Amixwoktest>subways?
17:42<Amixwoktest>:)
17:43<@Bjarni>maybe :P
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>* Bjarni has 3 channels <- i have like 150 german channels
17:43<Amixwoktest>Scandinavian channels are the best
17:43<Amixwoktest>subtitling instead of dubbing ;)
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>and a few others
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>like "al jazeera"
17:45<Amixwoktest>Dutch ones subtitle also
17:46<@Bjarni>http://www.veterantoget.dk/skildpadde/magasine/2006/nr1_2006.jpg <-- you know, when you deal with stuff like this you have to stay informed
17:47<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollyhart/3430121/
17:48<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: hehe
17:48<@Bjarni>it's actually great fun to put those faces on the locomotives
17:48<@Bjarni>and then drive with them
17:49<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Metro.JPG
17:50<@Bjarni>nice
17:50<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City106.JPG
17:50<Amixwoktest>:)
17:50<@Bjarni>what is this game?
17:50<@Bjarni>looks like a tramway
17:51<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Driver7.JPG
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it lacks signals
17:51<Amixwoktest>its TrainZ
17:51<Amixwoktest>:)
17:51<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_fromSky_2.JPG
17:51<@Bjarni>is it any fun?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2>that catenary is mounted way too high
17:52<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City6.JPG
17:52<Amixwoktest>no
17:53<Amixwoktest>its not a game
17:53<Amixwoktest>more a building simulator
17:53<Amixwoktest>then you can drive
17:53<Amixwoktest>arround
17:53<@Bjarni>so there is nothing like a schedule?
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17:54<Amixwoktest>yes there is
17:54<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/PremetroStation.JPG
17:54<Amixwoktest>underground station
17:55<Eddi|zuHause2>these 3D systems usually lack a good way to place parallel tracks
17:55<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City13.JPG
17:55<Amixwoktest>metro
17:55<@Bjarni>http://www.student.dtu.dk/~s991088/signal.JPEG <-- when it comes to underground railroads, nothing beats this
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>like in TTT, you could place doubletracks, but you could not attach a parallel track to an existing track
17:56<Amixwoktest>Bjarni: http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City2006map.jpg
17:56<Amixwoktest>map of my system ;)
17:57<@Bjarni>Bush...
17:57<@Bjarni>you used the wrong tool :P
17:58<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Driver7.JPG
17:58<Amixwoktest>one of the trams in the minitram area
17:58<Amixwoktest>;)
17:58<@Bjarni>you already posted this link once :P
17:59<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/towardsbush.JPG
17:59<Amixwoktest>there is the Bush ;)
18:00<Amixwoktest>http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_tracklayout220906.jpg
18:00<Amixwoktest>showing junctions etc
18:05<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj%A6llands_Veterantog <-- it's always fun to find one self when searching for something else :D
18:08<@Bjarni>well, I'm not present there personally, but I could have been
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18:09<@Bjarni>and then nobody says anything
18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>we are totally scared by the possibility of seeing you
18:10<@Bjarni>but I'm not present in the picture
18:10<@Bjarni>I do know two of the people in it though
18:11<Eddi|zuHause2>öhh... that link is broken
18:11<mcbane>what ya need to do (conditions) to build a bank?
18:11<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj%A6llands_Veterantog
18:11<mcbane>in temperate climate
18:11<@Bjarni>hmm
18:11<@Bjarni>still broken
18:12<+glx>mcbane: minimum population
18:12<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj 3%A6llands_Veterantog
18:12<@Bjarni>remove the space
18:12<@Bjarni>err
18:12<@Bjarni>still broken
18:12<mcbane>world population?
18:12<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj% C3%A6llands_Veterantog
18:12<@Bjarni>now
18:12<+glx>town population
18:12<@Bjarni>remove the space and it should work
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>ah, that makes more sense ;)
18:12<@Bjarni>stupid IRC :P
18:12<mcbane>glx whats the min? =)
18:12<+glx>1200
18:13<Eddi|zuHause2>that engine looks weird
18:13<@Bjarni>weird?
18:13<@Bjarni>what do you mean by weird?
18:13<mcbane>well i have several towns with 3k and it sais cant build there =&
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>mcbane: tried to build on a house?
18:16<mcbane>nope
18:16<mcbane>i tred to get some space
18:16<Eddi|zuHause2>then that is probably your mistake :p
18:16<mcbane>*tried/in
18:16<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: what do you mean by weird?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: difficult to describe
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>it has very big windows, compared to its size
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>also, they appear to be very low
18:18<@Bjarni>the front or the side?
18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>if you compare it to german engines... e.g. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_Baureihe_V_180
18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, the front
18:18<@Bjarni>oh you mean like that
18:18<@Bjarni>well
18:19<@Bjarni>basically this is to make a greenhouse in front to ensure that the driver has a nice and warm spot when it's summer and sunny :P
18:20<@Bjarni>actually it's because it's designed to drive at railroads where you don't get anything signalled in advance and it should be good at everything, even the switching yard
18:20<Greyscale>Night all
18:20<Greyscale>sleep good
18:21<@Bjarni>I never thought of the front window location as weird
18:22<@Bjarni>I know some not so common stuff on the engine, but didn't really think of the window size as one of them
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>also, it is asymmetric (only one light)
18:22<@Bjarni>it was common to only use two headlights when it was built
18:23<@Bjarni>there is no light near the driver because if it was raining, then the tracks would be wet and the designers were scared that the driver was blinded by the reflection of his own lights
18:23<@Bjarni>later tests showed that this isn't an issue
18:23<@Bjarni>but then it would cost money to add the 3rd light so it never happened
18:25<@Bjarni>actually I thought people would notice that the engine room windows are normal passenger car windows
18:25<@Bjarni>or at least looks very much like passenger car windows
18:25<@Bjarni>the bogies are oversized compared to the chassis size
18:26<@Bjarni>stuff like that
18:26<@Bjarni>but not the front window
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: i also noticed those things, but only on second and third view
19:01<Eddi|zuHause2>my first thought was "that front looks somehow strange"
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19:07<@Bjarni>goodnight
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19:49<fjb>Good night.
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20:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11192 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Little typo with bigger consequences when trying to remove a newindustries aware grf
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20:46<Ben_1>So there is only 2 lamppost sprites it would seem?...if thats correct thats a bit of a problem when you zoom in...sigh
20:47<Ben_1>maybe they'll have to become centered streetlamps or something. Has anybody made any streetlamp sprites before that I could take a look at?
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>err... what?
20:49<Eddi|zuHause2>there must be four sprites, one for each direction
20:49<Ben_1>looking through trg1r I only found 2 streetlamp sprites, while really there needs to be 4... I'm hoping I've missed the others
20:50<Eddi|zuHause2>is there a site listing all sprites?
20:51<Ben_1>I'm not sure. I think I saw a few train numbers written down once, but I just scan down the files with the sprites in usually. Looking at a screenshot there does appear to only be 2 sprites though
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21:20<Eddi|zuHause2>if i skim through the code, the lamps look like they are just a line, not a real sprite
21:41<Ben_1>there is a sprite on the sheet, but there is 1 sprite number which has the 2 lamps beneath it. Yet they appear to appear indepenantly
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21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it just skips printing the next number because the sprite is too thin
21:52<Eddi|zuHause2>so it's just lamps for right and left, not north/east/south/west
21:54<Eddi|zuHause2>well, then you either change the source to adapt to 4 directions, and map them to the 2 existing sprites for 8bpp, or you stick to the 2 directions in 32bpp
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22:07<Ben_1>Eddi|zuHause2: How easy would changing the source be? I wouldn't be able to do it, but would it be worth making sprites for 4 angles and asume someone will be able to sort the rest at some point?
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22:09<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the most complicated point would be the mapping to the 2 old sprites part, but i have no real experience in that part
22:14<Ben_1>alright, cheers. I'l come back to them another time. Just been messing with the platform/station tonight, not done but its coming along > http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g226/ben_robbins_/024-Station.png
22:14<Ben_1>lampposts are kinda anoying though
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22:27<Ben_1>night
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23:13<nickname>so its the year 2024... and i'm still waiting for monorails
23:13<nickname>what gives
23:30<Rubidium>what climate?
23:30<Rubidium>an which newgrfs are loaded?
23:30<nickname>desert
23:30<nickname>and the us trainset one
23:31<Eddi|zuHause2>newgrf sets usually do not contain monorail
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23:31<nickname>hrm, guess its time to start a new game
23:31<DaleStan>The USSet contains no monorail or maglev.
23:31<Eddi|zuHause2>because in TTDPatch you have to drop either monorail or maglev to enable elrail
23:32<Rubidium>isn't it the case that desert doesn't have monorail in normal games either?
23:32<nickname>they do
23:32<DaleStan>Nope. Because there is no large-scale use of either monorail or Maglev in the US.
23:32<nickname>if i'm not using newgrf, and i'm in desert, what kind of time span do i have between the first electric and and when the monorail comes?
23:32<DaleStan>No *electric* in desert without newgrfs.
23:33<nickname>oh, ok, well that solves that problem
23:33<DaleStan>Monorail is usually around 2005 to 2010, I think.
23:33<nickname>i love the desert the most... i love having everyhting interconnected
23:44[~]Hendikins looks through the pile of crap that RailCorp posted to him about his new job
23:45<Ailure>I think monorail actually comes a bit earlier than 2005
23:45<Ailure>2000
23:46[~]nickname does the mr burns thing
23:46<nickname>*excellent*
23:46<nickname>guess i'm gonna start a new game
23:46<Ailure>ah
23:46<Ailure>1999 actually
23:46<Hendikins>I'm going to be playing with railways at a scale of 1:1 :)
23:47|-|ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-164-234.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ThePizzaKing]
---Logclosed Tue Oct 02 00:00:06 2007