| --- | Log | opened Tue Oct 02 00:00:06 2007 |
| 00:01 | <Ailure> | been ages since I last touched monorail |
| 00:02 | <Ailure> | mostly becuse the trainsets I use tend to lack monorail trains |
| 00:03 | <Hendikins> | I tend to go electric -> maglev |
| 00:04 | <Ailure> | I don't replace my electrical railroads, just rather build maglev aside my railways |
| 00:05 | <Ailure> | since maglev is unsuitable for bulk cargo :P |
| 00:08 | <nickname> | unsuitable? |
| 00:15 | <Ailure> | yeah |
| 00:15 | <Ailure> | that's why most train sets who have maglev technology only carries passengers, and maybe containers too |
| 00:16 | <nickname> | i dont get it |
| 00:16 | <nickname> | why |
| 00:17 | <Ailure> | Can the superspeed maglev system used to transport goods? |
| 00:17 | <Ailure> | The superspeed maglev system is suited to transport valuable express goods that can be packed into containers. Special vehicles are available for freight traffic. The freight sections can be combined to form goods-only trains and mixed trains carrying both passengers and freight. Each freight section has a capacity of 17 t. The operating speeds of freight vehicles and passenger vehicles are the same. |
| 00:17 | <Ailure> | The maglev system is not designed to transport heavy and bulk goods because it isn't reasonable to transport coal, ore, steel or oil at 500 km/h. |
| 00:17 | <Ailure> | from the transrapid FAQ |
| 00:18 | <Ailure> | it might be diffrent for other maglev's, but I doubt it |
| 00:18 | <nickname> | oh |
| 00:18 | <nickname> | well i dont really care about realism |
| 00:18 | <Ailure> | well it's a gameplay issue for me too :) |
| 00:19 | <Ailure> | I like variation |
| 00:19 | <Ailure> | it's neat to mix diffrent types of transport :P |
| 00:20 | <Ailure> | I find myself making new passenger lines with maglev most of the time, and leave the old railroad network for industrial bulk goods |
| 00:20 | <nickname> | mmm |
| 00:20 | <nickname> | you know |
| 00:21 | <nickname> | i dont understand the point of transfer |
| 00:21 | <nickname> | i have ti going on my game, but the train that delivers the goods to the final destinaion, just looses me lots of money ever yyear |
| 00:21 | <Ailure> | That's due how transfer works actually |
| 00:22 | <Ailure> | there's ways of avoiding it too |
| 00:22 | <nickname> | how? |
| 00:22 | <Ailure> | such as avoiding going from a fast to slow transport |
| 00:22 | <Ailure> | such as aircraft -> ship |
| 00:22 | <nickname> | i'm doing all trains |
| 00:22 | <nickname> | but its a very large distance |
| 00:23 | <nickname> | like halfway across the map |
| 00:23 | <nickname> | and its like a 512x512 map |
| 00:23 | <Ailure> | hmm |
| 00:23 | <Ailure> | then I dunno |
| 00:23 | <Ailure> | unless the other train waits for a really long time |
| 00:24 | <Ailure> | the money that a train gains when transferring cargo is just merely virtual |
| 00:24 | <Ailure> | the real money comes when the last vhicle unloads the cargo |
| 00:24 | <Ailure> | and if it's less profit than the virtual money earlier, it reports a loss |
| 00:24 | <nickname> | the last train looses alot of money when it picks up the cargo |
| 00:24 | <Ailure> | then I dunno |
| 00:24 | <Ailure> | I'm not sure how you set it up |
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| 00:57 | <boekabart> | gooood morning |
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| 02:05 | <mcbane> | good morning |
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| 02:06 | <nickname> | crazy europeaners |
| 02:07 | <mcbane> | depends on what you define as crazy =D |
| 02:08 | <nickname> | lol |
| 02:08 | <nickname> | saying good morning at midnight |
| 02:12 | <Alltaken> | it should be good evening |
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| 02:12 | <mcbane> | ah, ya west coast, aye? |
| 02:13 | <dihedral|work> | morning |
| 02:13 | <nickname> | arizona |
| 02:13 | <nickname> | i hate the west coast |
| 02:13 | <Rubidium> | crazy Americans.. saying midnight when it's clearly morning! |
| 02:13 | [~] | mcbane grins. |
| 02:13 | <nickname> | lol |
| 02:17 | <boekabart> | Rubidium: in your part of the country it's clear this morning? ;) |
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| 02:18 | <boekabart> | Is this the only time of day when both 'oceanians', us-ians and eu-ans are bored enough to chat here? |
| 02:20 | <Alltaken> | na i'm on the east coast ;-) |
| 02:20 | <boekabart> | of... |
| 02:20 | <boekabart> | nz? aus? one of those right? |
| 02:20 | <Alltaken> | of the "south island" (creative bunch |
| 02:20 | <Rubidium> | boekabart: I can see the RTV Oost antenna from here |
| 02:20 | <boekabart> | Rubidium: it would be really clear if I could :) |
| 02:21 | <Alltaken> | boekabart: yeah NZ |
| 02:21 | <boekabart> | Alltaken: ah, then IRC |
| 02:22 | <boekabart> | Rubidium: how do I ask DorpsGek what the hex value for -8 is? |
| 02:22 | <boekabart> | (0xF7 or F8, one of those i guess but it's too early to think) |
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| 02:25 | <Rubidium> | boekabart: -1 = 0xFF (or 0xFFFF (or 0xFFFFFFFF (or ...))) |
| 02:25 | <boekabart> | i know that |
| 02:25 | <boekabart> | thanks for giving me so much credit :) |
| 02:25 | <Rubidium> | so @calc 256 - 8 and then paste that into @base 10 16 |
| 02:26 | <boekabart> | DorpsGek: @calc 256-8 |
| 02:26 | <boekabart> | @base 10 16 248 |
| 02:26 | <@DorpsGek> | boekabart: F8 |
| 02:26 | <boekabart> | merci beaucoup |
| 02:27 | <Rubidium> | boekabart: the RTV Oost antenna is "only" 350 meters away though (well, there's a plant in between, but that's all) |
| 02:28 | <boekabart> | well if you can't see the sun or it's direct light, it's not clear :) |
| 02:28 | <boekabart> | assert(sun.up); |
| 02:30 | <Rubidium> | well, the flashing red lights would be... |
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| 02:45 | <mcbane> | hmm |
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| 03:28 | <mcbane> | stuff i dont understand. i switch on newAI and in multiplayer AI creating companies but when i start without new AI no company is getting started. |
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| 03:31 | <boekabart> | mcbane: i would consider that good news :) |
| 03:31 | |-| | Frostregen_ changed nick to Frostregen |
| 03:31 | <mcbane> | wel the newai switch shouldnt cause that i think |
| 03:32 | <mcbane> | newai means that the ai is partially implemented from AI brach or am i wrong |
| 03:32 | <boekabart> | no |
| 03:32 | <Rubidium> | no, that was another attempt |
| 03:32 | <Rubidium> | it's just that "newai" doesn't cheat, whereas "oldai" does like hell |
| 03:33 | <Rubidium> | which makes "oldai" not suitable for network play, as other people might exploit the "oldai" cheats |
| 03:33 | <mcbane> | well with old ai (newai off) there is no company created in multiplayer. |
| 03:33 | <mcbane> | i have buy others off =) |
| 03:33 | <Rubidium> | as oldai cannot be used in multiplayer, due to it's vast need to cheat |
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| 03:34 | <mcbane> | ok, got it. |
| 03:34 | <boekabart> | Rubidium: Any idea how it can happen that in traincontroller, GetDirectionToNextVehicle is called with the location of the 'previous' vehicle == the new location of the 'current' (following) one?? |
| 03:43 | <Rubidium> | enters/leaves the depot? |
| 03:44 | <boekabart> | no, that's handled |
| 03:44 | <boekabart> | hm |
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| 06:18 | <vicky> | hello |
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| 06:21 | <Amixwoktest> | hey |
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| 06:46 | <Enigma_Nova> | Hi guys. |
| 06:47 | <Enigma_Nova> | Must all be afk. |
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| 06:50 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, like you can determine that within 30 seconds... |
| 06:50 | <mcbane> | heh |
| 06:51 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | ... in a channel where the average conversation has a reply every 2 hours |
| 06:52 | <mcbane> | slightly delayed answers. |
| 06:53 | <Brianetta> | determine what? |
| 06:55 | <Brianetta> | irc.lug.org.uk #linux has stop-motion conversation |
| 06:55 | <hylje> | :o |
| 06:55 | <Brianetta> | Looks perfectly normal unsil you examine the timestamps |
| 06:56 | <hylje> | everybody apparently filters out joins quits nicks parts and deliberately omits tiemstamps |
| 06:56 | <Brianetta> | everybody doesn't include me |
| 06:57 | <hylje> | yeah, you're like that |
| 06:58 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit |
| 06:59 | <Brianetta> | Loser. |
| 06:59 | <Brianetta> | Doesn't deserve the enlightenment that is our conversation. |
| 06:59 | <hylje> | ive seen people who caught up in middle of a discussion |
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| 07:00 | <hylje> | and left because they didnt get immedetiate answer |
| 07:00 | <Brianetta> | You should see the Linux channels |
| 07:00 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, that's about what i thought, too, but i can't formulate my thoughts into words |
| 07:00 | <hylje> | i'm lurking some ubuntu channels |
| 07:00 | <hylje> | and a l33t h4x0r distro channel |
| 07:00 | <Brianetta> | People barge in, demand an immediate solution to their esoteric, rare and yet extremely important problem |
| 07:00 | <Brianetta> | l33t h4x0r? Can only be Gentoo. |
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| 07:01 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | they can't even spell h4xx0r correctly... |
| 07:01 | <hylje> | google spells it h4x0r |
| 07:01 | <Brianetta> | Eddi: Correctly, it's h4><0r |
| 07:01 | <hylje> | so it must be right |
| 07:01 | <Ailure> | hx |
| 07:02 | <hylje> | for the record, it's not gentoo. gentoo's too popular for l33t h4x0rs |
| 07:02 | <Brianetta> | Ailure: Only on SMS |
| 07:02 | <Ailure> | y |
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| 07:02 | <Brianetta> | Gentoo is for ricers. |
| 07:02 | <Ailure> | lol, sorry couldn't resist |
| 07:02 | <SpComb> | I was about to correct haxxors -> ricers |
| 07:02 | <SpComb> | :( |
| 07:03 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you're right, h4><0r wins |
| 07:03 | <SpComb> | but whenever somebody mentions having some issues with gentoo updates breaking their system, one needs to say "(I wouldn't use gentoo unless I secretly enjoyed this)" |
| 07:05 | <Ailure> | [13:58] <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit |
| 07:05 | <Ailure> | Haha that's way too common with IRC channels |
| 07:06 | <Ailure> | it's even more funny when someone replies mere seconds after he quitted |
| 07:06 | <Ailure> | People are too impatient. :P |
| 07:08 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | sorry for my ignorance, but what is a ricer? |
| 07:08 | <Brianetta> | Somebody who takes an Opal Nova and puts fins, tails and stripes on it to make it look like it goes faster. |
| 07:09 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | hm, those people typically drive an Opel Manta here ;) |
| 07:09 | <Ailure> | People who spend more time tweaking, than actually using the damn thing? |
| 07:09 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and are at war with people who drive a Golf instead |
| 07:10 | <Brianetta> | Ailure: funroll-loops.org has expired, unfortunately, but it was a superb satire |
| 07:11 | <Brianetta> | http://web.archive.org/web/20061004200708/http://www.funroll-loops.org/ |
| 07:11 | <Brianetta> | There you go |
| 07:11 | <Brianetta> | The Wayback machine saves the day |
| 07:14 | <Ailure> | haha oh god |
| 07:14 | <Ailure> | some of the quotes |
| 07:14 | <Brianetta> | yes |
| 07:14 | <Ailure> | "Why *SHOULDN'T* you put a production server on gentoo? I mean, THOSE things should perform REALLY well, and gentoo is just the thing that does that..." |
| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | My server used to be Gentoo |
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| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | but Gentoo slowly destroyed itself |
| 07:15 | <Ailure> | I use Ubuntu on my laptop |
| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | so I replaced it with Trustix |
| 07:15 | <Ailure> | Bet Gentoo users consider it a n00b distro |
| 07:15 | <Brianetta> | Gentoo's "use" flags are touted as a huge advantage |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | Like, if you have no printer, you can compile everything without support for printing |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | No CUPS, no drivers, nothing |
| 07:16 | <Phazorx> | heh what do they ahve against gentoo? |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | and then |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | when you buy a printer |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | you have to add printing to your "use" and then... |
| 07:16 | <Ailure> | I really don't see how huge speed improvment that would have |
| 07:16 | <Brianetta> | rebuild the entire bloody OS! |
| 07:16 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: 2 things |
| 07:17 | <Brianetta> | Phazorx: It was an example |
| 07:17 | <Phazorx> | think ahead being first... and plan how you gonna use your hardware |
| 07:17 | <Brianetta> | You could switch "gnome support" for "printing" |
| 07:17 | <Phazorx> | second, ity will recompile your damn os with 2 commands |
| 07:17 | <Brianetta> | You might believe you're a KDE man, through and through |
| 07:17 | <Phazorx> | and will work after reboot |
| 07:17 | <Phazorx> | which is a beauty to see |
| 07:17 | <Brianetta> | with 2 commands and a whole bunch of time |
| 07:17 | <Ailure> | "I am a long time Gentoo user, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I believe that as hardware gets faster, it makes sense to migrate to a largely source-based Linux system. Binary packages encourage inconsistency and incompatibility, whearas source encourages unified development frameworks and integration." |
| 07:17 | <Ailure> | hahha what |
| 07:18 | <Phazorx> | who cares, point being you do have that option |
| 07:18 | <Brianetta> | You're not going to convince me that Gentoo is good. I used it as a primary OS on my four machines for four years. |
| 07:18 | <Phazorx> | it runs about on 30 servers at my prious place ar wrk :) |
| 07:18 | <Brianetta> | The very fact that the documentation didn't mention that you sould always emerge upgrades with --deep, for example, cost me an installation |
| 07:18 | <Brianetta> | once glibc was too old to upgrade itself |
| 07:19 | <Brianetta> | and the compiler failed |
| 07:19 | <Phazorx> | that is sad, indeed |
| 07:19 | <valhallasw> | if you should do that, why isn't it the default? :| |
| 07:19 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Phazorx: let me guess, it also runs your keyboard :p |
| 07:19 | <Brianetta> | valhallasw: NFI. |
| 07:19 | <Brianetta> | That was why my server needed a reinstall |
| 07:19 | <Brianetta> | It was 350 miles away, and couldn't be updated. |
| 07:19 | <Brianetta> | Once I switched ISPs, I took the opportunity to reinstall the OS. |
| 07:20 | <valhallasw> | -_- |
| 07:20 | <Ailure> | heh |
| 07:20 | <Ailure> | "I essentially started using Gentoo because my ....ing KDE clock would never show the right time in Red Hat." |
| 07:20 | <Ailure> | I wonder how he even got Gentoo working |
| 07:20 | <Phazorx> | upgrade is a relegion imo |
| 07:20 | <valhallasw> | kde :'( |
| 07:20 | <Brianetta> | I'd already given up on Gentoo at home, because it took so long to upgrade OpenOffice.org that the *next* one was available by the time it had finished. |
| 07:20 | <valhallasw> | xfce4 O+ |
| 07:20 | <Phazorx> | some people think it is a way to save and imptrove things.. i mostly dont believe in it :) |
| 07:20 | <Ailure> | hah |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | unlike why I love the package manager in Linux |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | almost anything I installed through the package manager |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | is easily upgradable |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | in a painless way |
| 07:21 | <Brianetta> | Also, I took the time to measure performance on Gentoo and on subsequent Fedora installations |
| 07:21 | <Brianetta> | About parity, was the result. |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | heh Fedora |
| 07:21 | <Ailure> | First distrobution I used |
| 07:22 | <valhallasw> | I hear good stories about ubuntu |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | My first was Slackware Professional Linux 2.0 |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | I used some early version of it |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | I currently recommend Ubuntu to the LUG embers |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | where some stuff was broken |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | I tried slackware next |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | LUG? |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | embers? hot coals? I menat members |
| 07:22 | <valhallasw> | linux user group |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | ah |
| 07:22 | <valhallasw> | or sth |
| 07:22 | <Ailure> | Well |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | Ailure: I run http://www.tyneside.lug.org.uk/ |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | In fact, I founded it |
| 07:22 | <Brianetta> | we're one of the oldest |
| 07:23 | <Ailure> | intresting |
| 07:23 | <Ailure> | I really enjoy Ubuntu |
| 07:23 | <valhallasw> | bbl |
| 07:23 | <Ailure> | and that's someone who tried severeal linux distros and even a BSD |
| 07:23 | <Ailure> | *from someone |
| 07:23 | <Brianetta> | People ask me when I switched from Windows |
| 07:23 | <Brianetta> | I laugh at them |
| 07:23 | <Brianetta> | I actually switched from DOS |
| 07:23 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: not sure about fedora, but i moved from RHEL to gentoo |
| 07:23 | <Phazorx> | compiling own kernel and optimizing DB binaries gave 10-15% |
| 07:24 | <Brianetta> | Phazorx: My real beef with Gentoo is the amount of active maintenance it requires. |
| 07:24 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: well i'm not sure if any is required |
| 07:24 | <Brianetta> | emerging a new package often requires updating other things, and you need to be careful every damned time |
| 07:24 | <Phazorx> | unless you constaly mod/develop whatever the box is doing |
| 07:24 | <Brianetta> | "ooh, I think I'll try that network analyser" |
| 07:25 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: on a working server |
| 07:25 | <Brianetta> | Phazorx: This was my desktop |
| 07:25 | <Phazorx> | you are going to try to do soemthing that is capable of messing u your whole setup? |
| 07:25 | <Brianetta> | I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach |
| 07:25 | <Phazorx> | well so that is your test box |
| 07:25 | <Phazorx> | it meants to be rebooted |
| 07:25 | <Brianetta> | My test box? |
| 07:25 | <Brianetta> | No |
| 07:25 | <Brianetta> | That's the machine I work on |
| 07:26 | <Brianetta> | Installing packages on other distributions doesn't affect stability |
| 07:26 | <Phazorx> | with servers there was one dedicated test/spare, which was doing compiling/updating and maintained local portage mirror |
| 07:26 | <Ailure> | [14:24] <Brianetta> I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach |
| 07:26 | <Ailure> | Obviously |
| 07:26 | <Ailure> | I mean heh |
| 07:26 | <Ailure> | I help a friend of mine to adminstrate a Linux server in a server farm |
| 07:26 | <Phazorx> | so other servers with identical setup just sync from it if really neded |
| 07:26 | <Phazorx> | uptime was tree nines |
| 07:26 | <Ailure> | the few times it have gone down for random reasons it's been painful to get it up again |
| 07:27 | <Ailure> | usually hardware related failures |
| 07:27 | <Ailure> | so I can only imagine what would happen if you just do a improper update that breaks SSH or even the system as whole |
| 07:28 | <Phazorx> | Ailure: yet agaion i'm against updationg unless you have really good reason |
| 07:28 | <Phazorx> | and you dont just *try* updating soemthing that is unreachalble and meant to be up all time |
| 07:28 | <Ailure> | we don't upgrade often on that server |
| 07:28 | <Brianetta> | Really good reasons include security updates |
| 07:28 | <Ailure> | I upgrade whenever I can on my laptop though |
| 07:29 | <Brianetta> | You can't leave old packages on internet servers |
| 07:29 | <Ailure> | and yeah, that's true |
| 07:29 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: i tend to separate pieces that ensure security and do work |
| 07:29 | <Brianetta> | Separate how? What if it's an ssh vulnerability? |
| 07:29 | <Ailure> | security problems tend to get widely known fast |
| 07:29 | <Brianetta> | and lo, the update requires 14 other updates |
| 07:29 | <Phazorx> | well i dont think ANY of servers that might be vulerable should be SSH availabled from the net |
| 07:30 | <Phazorx> | now of servers i managed were |
| 07:30 | <Phazorx> | there was dedeicated LAN for console acces with VPN access to it |
| 07:30 | <Brianetta> | I can't afford that amount of datacentre space |
| 07:30 | <Brianetta> | 1u is all I rent |
| 07:30 | <Brianetta> | and I have zero physical access |
| 07:31 | <Phazorx> | well you should not be conserned much about security having not that much of scale |
| 07:31 | <Brianetta> | unless I buy time in the build room |
| 07:31 | <Brianetta> | I shouldn't be concerned with security? |
| 07:31 | <Brianetta> | It's my first, and often only, concern |
| 07:31 | <Brianetta> | If my box is compromised, I am totally screwed |
| 07:32 | <Phazorx> | well security updates based on internet based bulettin is not a guarantee, since it is reactive rather than proactive |
| 07:32 | <Brianetta> | If I were to be proactive, I lose all portage benefits. |
| 07:33 | <Brianetta> | As it happens, Trustix excels in every respect over Gewntoo, on my server. |
| 07:33 | <Phazorx> | if i care about security i emply preventive methods to level of not having a need to deploy patches/updates unless there is a major software change |
| 07:34 | <Brianetta> | You can't learn about security holes first, unless you're some kind of psychic |
| 07:34 | <Phazorx> | like hoin from apache/modphp/mysql4 to lighttpd/fastcgi/mysql5 |
| 07:34 | <Brianetta> | They have their own holes |
| 07:34 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: exactly so you stop having "things" that might have/develop security holes |
| 07:34 | <Brianetta> | Like saying, because I switched to dovecot, I don't need to worry about POP3 vulnerabilities |
| 07:34 | <Brianetta> | Still, despite its total emphasis on security, it's had several security fixes this year. |
| 07:35 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: if you switch to exchange - you dont tho |
| 07:35 | <Phazorx> | because pop is not used anymore |
| 07:35 | <Phazorx> | so you dont need ssh upades if there is no way to get to ssh |
| 07:35 | <Phazorx> | you donty need to worry about apache updates if you dont use apache |
| 07:35 | <Brianetta> | I'm not going to switch to a proprietary system. They have security hoes that don't even get looked at. |
| 07:35 | <Phazorx> | you dont need phpnuke/wordpost fizxes if you dont have them |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | Phazorx: You need fixes for the things you have instead |
| 07:36 | <Phazorx> | well i'm not suggesting that, but that is the general apraoch |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | Crumbs, I run my own web software |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | I write my own security fixes |
| 07:36 | <Phazorx> | fixing whole is not guaranteeing anything, not having them in first places gives confidence |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | Avoiding popular software isn't the issue |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | I *need* a web server |
| 07:36 | <Brianetta> | I *need* ssh |
| 07:37 | <Brianetta> | In fact, I use ssh to secure a bunch of other protocols. |
| 07:37 | <Phazorx> | you webserver can be limited in functionality to what you need |
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| 07:37 | <Brianetta> | It can? |
| 07:37 | <Phazorx> | ssh can be limited to only set of ips, or betetr yet use different network interfaface with VPN |
| 07:37 | <Brianetta> | I need to connect from anywhere |
| 07:37 | <Brianetta> | including dynamic IPs |
| 07:38 | <Phazorx> | Brianetta: nope, you dont, you can proxy |
| 07:38 | <Brianetta> | I am proxying at the moment |
| 07:38 | <Brianetta> | and there are some IP based restrictions |
| 07:38 | <Phazorx> | i used radmin to my work box, or ssh to it even from blackberry, and then get to server |
| 07:38 | <Brianetta> | but what makes my SSH secure isn't that |
| 07:39 | <Brianetta> | It's using keys only, and automatically blocking IPs that attempt to log in with a password. |
| 07:39 | <Phazorx> | well not having listner on port 22 on same IP you run webserver is much better |
| 07:39 | <Brianetta> | In any case, the issue isn't whether SSH should or shouldn't be used |
| 07:39 | <Brianetta> | It's whether Gentoo can adequately provide secure updates |
| 07:39 | <Brianetta> | Bearing in mind that Trustix can, and it never, ever breaks |
| 07:40 | <Phazorx> | as efficient as any other compiled OS i guess |
| 07:40 | <Phazorx> | i have nothing againstr trustix and given your situation it is a wise choice |
| 07:40 | <Phazorx> | how right tool for right job is a good philosophy |
| 07:41 | <Phazorx> | if you need a lot of people you use bus, if you need to get there fast you use sportscar |
| 07:41 | <Phazorx> | doesnt mean evier is bad as long as they are used within relm of their capabilities |
| 07:42 | <Phazorx> | point being - gentoo with it's "flawed" system of updates and "inability" to guess what user might need in future and eliminating these options of expandability has it's place |
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| 09:14 | <frosch123> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=34279 <- my new tool :) |
| 09:15 | <Amixwoktest> | nice |
| 09:15 | <Amixwoktest> | now support MorphOS ;) |
| 09:16 | <Amixwoktest> | Born_Acorn: what sort of os is RiscOS really? |
| 09:16 | <Amixwoktest> | ive allways wondered about Acorn |
| 09:16 | <Amixwoktest> | looked at it as a competitor to Amiga back in days |
| 09:18 | <Rubidium> | now write a delphi parser for GCC ;) |
| 09:19 | <frosch123> | try freepascal |
| 09:19 | <frosch123> | except pngdelphi, it should work |
| 09:19 | <Amixwoktest> | write in DSL language |
| 09:19 | <Amixwoktest> | and you suddendly support way more plattforms |
| 09:19 | <Amixwoktest> | ;) |
| 09:20 | <Rubidium> | isn't dsl a little too low level to be usefull? |
| 09:20 | <Amixwoktest> | no |
| 09:20 | <Amixwoktest> | Pixel32 etc is SDL product |
| 09:21 | <Rubidium> | oh.. I had HDL in mind ;) |
| 09:22 | <Amixwoktest> | http://www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/?page_id=12 |
| 09:22 | <Amixwoktest> | :) |
| 09:23 | <Amixwoktest> | Pixel is a RGB, CMYK and HDR image editing, photo retouching, graphics manipulating and animation program available for many operating systems formerly known as Pixel32. It is available for Windows, Linux, Linspire, MacOSX, BeOS, Zeta, QNX, MorphOS, FreeBSD, eComStation, OS/2, SkyOS and even old plain DOS, for both x86 and PowerPC architectures. |
| 09:23 | <Rubidium> | boring... who cares about pixels in the context of nfo? |
| 09:24 | <Amixwoktest> | ¿ |
| 09:24 | <Rubidium> | (yes, I know his post says grf, but it's rather the nfo-part of the GRF it handles than the pcx part) |
| 09:25 | <Amixwoktest> | ohh |
| 09:25 | <Amixwoktest> | ill stop now |
| 09:25 | <Amixwoktest> | because now i dont know what were talking about, lol |
| 09:25 | <Amixwoktest> | ;p |
| 09:25 | <frosch123> | But it reads grfs. They are a lot easier to parse, than nfo. |
| 09:41 | <Progman> | frosch123: how looks a sample html file? |
| 09:43 | <frosch123> | decode one :) |
| 09:43 | <Progman> | no wine atm |
| 09:43 | <Progman> | you should provide an example in the forum post anyway |
| 09:44 | <frosch123> | Then tell me one, which I can publish without making the author angry. |
| 09:44 | <Progman> | ah, damn, of course... |
| 09:44 | <@Belugas> | whooo.... cool tool :) |
| 09:44 | <@Belugas> | just saw it |
| 09:47 | <Rubidium> | Ammler's nothing.grf (I think) |
| 09:51 | <frosch123> | Hmm, perhaps I can make some screenshots, which noone can associate to a grf... |
| 09:51 | [~] | dihedral|work greets Belugas |
| 09:52 | [~] | Belugas sendsd back greetings to dihedral|work |
| 09:52 | [~] | TrueBrain slaps dihedral|work |
| 09:53 | [~] | dihedral|work slaps TrueBrain back |
| 09:53 | <dihedral|work> | what was that for |
| 09:53 | <TrueBrain> | nothing |
| 09:53 | <TrueBrain> | just felt like it |
| 09:53 | <dihedral|work> | :-P |
| 09:54 | <dihedral|work> | thought i might have said something while you were gone that you just could have read in the logs |
| 09:54 | <TrueBrain> | who knowsw :p |
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| 10:03 | <ln-> | wtf, someone having a race in F1 gp, positions changing without pitstops; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuxOv2kvjA4 |
| 10:04 | <ln-> | doesn't sound like the good old "schumacher is on the 1st position and has 3-minute gap to the second one" |
| 10:05 | <hylje> | UNPOSSIBLE |
| 10:06 | <mcbane> | unpossible? |
| 10:07 | <dihedral|work> | abso-f'n-lutely |
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| 10:16 | <SmatZ> | hello |
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| 10:34 | <frosch123> | another 123 :) |
| 10:36 | <Sionide> | beginning with f as well |
| 10:36 | <TrueBrain> | depending on how much either one of you two are going to chat, I guess that will be confusing, and will lead to kicks :p |
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| 10:39 | <TrueBrain> | bah, no kicking today :( |
| 10:42 | <Ammler> | TrueBrain: kicking is a good keyword, is it hard to extend the function banning for a whole subnet? |
| 10:42 | [~] | TrueBrain sets mode +b *!*@*.ch |
| 10:43 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i'm afraid he means in the game :p |
| 10:49 | <TrueBrain> | bah |
| 10:49 | <Ammler> | our workaround is atm to ban the guy from IRC and web |
| 10:50 | <Ammler> | so, he can't get the password |
| 10:50 | <+glx> | like soup? |
| 10:50 | <Ammler> | yep |
| 10:51 | <Ammler> | but maybe there is a "builtin function" for C++ to compare with subnets? |
| 10:51 | <TrueBrain> | it means you need to get the rdns |
| 10:51 | <TrueBrain> | which currently isn't implemented at all I think |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | so it takes a bit of work, but not undoable |
| 10:52 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: rdns? |
| 10:52 | <Phazorx> | Ammler means by ip + cidr |
| 10:52 | <Ammler> | I don't need dns for banning subnets |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | you want to ban on IP base... |
| 10:52 | <TrueBrain> | doable, but less useful |
| 10:52 | <Ammler> | sometinng like 192.* |
| 10:52 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | you mean in the form of 192.168.0.* |
| 10:53 | <TrueBrain> | if you do it, you can better do it based on dns |
| 10:53 | <Phazorx> | no |
| 10:53 | <TrueBrain> | a bit more effort, but more useful |
| 10:53 | <Phazorx> | i mean 192.168.0.0/16 |
| 10:53 | <TrueBrain> | anyway, feel free to make a patch ;) |
| 10:53 | <Ammler> | Phazorx: is there a difference? |
| 10:53 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: cidr more flexible |
| 10:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | in german we say "das selbe in grün" |
| 10:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | or "dasselbe", i'm never sure... |
| 10:54 | <Ammler> | ähm, TrueBrain, I ask you because you know C++ better (much) then me, so you might know if there is already a function... |
| 10:54 | <Ammler> | you don't have to do it |
| 10:55 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: 192.168.64.1/29 - bans only 8 ips |
| 10:55 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: 192.168.64.128/29 - bans othjer 8 ips |
| 10:55 | <Ammler> | Phazorx: it depense on the function, which you can use |
| 10:56 | <TrueBrain> | Ammler: in fact, because of a 'bug' you had this feature a while back |
| 10:56 | <TrueBrain> | 'someone' fixed it :p |
| 10:56 | <Phazorx> | and isp buy ip ranges in these segments so bans for ips/locale makes much more sense with bitmask |
| 10:56 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: still, rdns-based makes much more sense ;) |
| 10:56 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: just as much sense, perhaps easier to manage tho |
| 10:56 | <TrueBrain> | (as ISPs have several ip-ranges ;)) |
| 10:57 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: i dont mind digging ips and whoising isps for desired effect |
| 10:57 | <Ammler> | yeah, like the IRC |
| 10:57 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | +b *.t-dialin.net |
| 10:57 | <Phazorx> | i do mind lacking ability to do it |
| 10:57 | <Ammler> | just begin with IP-Masks |
| 10:57 | <Phazorx> | and yet again i dont want to ban whole isp in most cases |
| 10:57 | <Phazorx> | but i can find out with whois exact range dedicated to some area in case if that applies |
| 10:58 | <Phazorx> | which makes targeting much mroe presize |
| 10:58 | <Phazorx> | rdns will not help in this case |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | rdns still is more useful :) |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | as most ISPs are smart enough to put the area in the rdns |
| 10:58 | <TrueBrain> | but okay, I say: make a patch :) |
| 10:59 | <Phazorx> | well my point is cidr range is easier to do and will do the job |
| 10:59 | <TrueBrain> | and no Ammler, I simply don't have the time to do it |
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| 11:02 | <Ammler> | I repeat me, but I never asked you to do it, just asked you, if there is a function in C++ where can already compare such things |
| 11:03 | <TrueBrain> | oh, sorry, misread you |
| 11:03 | <TrueBrain> | happens :p |
| 11:03 | <TrueBrain> | for what Phazorx suggests, I wouldn't know a function, but I guess it isn't that hard |
| 11:03 | <TrueBrain> | convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting |
| 11:04 | <@Belugas> | always when coming back from hiliday :) takes a while to get back on work :D |
| 11:04 | <TrueBrain> | for what I suggest, you need regexp support to do it nicely |
| 11:04 | <TrueBrain> | not default C++ either |
| 11:05 | <Ammler> | hmm, maybe Phazorx will try a little bit with C? |
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| 11:05 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: as i suggested before - norroing some code for apache wil ldo the trick |
| 11:05 | <Phazorx> | and last time i was doing c was about 10 years ago |
| 11:05 | <Ammler> | yeah, good reason for a comming back |
| 11:06 | <TrueBrain> | lol, using Apache to find this function (or any other for that matter) will take much longer than a good www.google.com search :) |
| 11:06 | <Phazorx> | well at least to the level of acomplishing something worth having a name next to it :) |
| 11:06 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: i dont think i can word it good enough |
| 11:06 | <Phazorx> | but any other utility that can read cidr mask will do |
| 11:06 | <Phazorx> | it is as easy as parsing string from config differently and applying proper bitmask tho |
| 11:07 | <TrueBrain> | as I said, convert to int, and apply bitmask ;) |
| 11:07 | <TrueBrain> | (shifting) |
| 11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | <TrueBrain> convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting <- just & it with the subnet mask |
| 11:07 | <TrueBrain> | Eddi|zuHause2: you want shifting, to do comparing :) |
| 11:07 | <TrueBrain> | the /29 means >> 3, and compare the 2 values |
| 11:07 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: xor more like it |
| 11:07 | <TrueBrain> | euh.. |
| 11:08 | <TrueBrain> | doh |
| 11:08 | <TrueBrain> | but okay |
| 11:08 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | no, why xor? |
| 11:08 | <Phazorx> | Eddi|zuHause2: becasue cidr works that way |
| 11:08 | <TrueBrain> | no, what I said should work |
| 11:08 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: i meant you compare xored result to 0 |
| 11:09 | <Phazorx> | the shifting is ecatly as you described |
| 11:09 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, I was confused by my own math |
| 11:09 | <TrueBrain> | but okay |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip): kick |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | euh |
| 11:10 | <TrueBrain> | inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip) >> (32 - subnet): kick |
| 11:10 | <Phazorx> | hmm |
| 11:10 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | it does not matter much, if you xor, shift, and compare to 0, or if you shift twice, and check for equality |
| 11:10 | <Ammler> | and this patch should work also only on server side |
| 11:10 | <Phazorx> | xoring is still required |
| 11:11 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: why? |
| 11:11 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | A xor B == 0 is equivalent to A == B |
| 11:11 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: trying to word it properly hang on |
| 11:12 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | what the compiler or processor does with these expressions is a whole different story |
| 11:12 | <Phazorx> | i guess since you do it other way - it does not ened to be xored |
| 11:12 | <TrueBrain> | Eddi|zuHause2: and who cares, as long as it works :p |
| 11:12 | <Phazorx> | you are trunking uneffective bits and comparing the res |
| 11:12 | <Phazorx> | i was thinking of comparing base and xoring mask |
| 11:12 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: which is what a subnetmask does, when banning ;) |
| 11:13 | <Phazorx> | diff aproaches but same result |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | problem about xoring mask, is that you have the value 29 |
| 11:13 | <TrueBrain> | you need to make that into 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1000 |
| 11:13 | <Phazorx> | or <<29 instead of >>3 |
| 11:14 | <Phazorx> | your logic is fine tho |
| 11:14 | <Phazorx> | mine was just doing reverse of what you had in mind |
| 11:14 | <TrueBrain> | I just wonder how to make that bitmask from the number 29... |
| 11:14 | <TrueBrain> | in an efficient way |
| 11:14 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | -1 << 3? |
| 11:14 | <TrueBrain> | hmm, good point |
| 11:15 | <Phazorx> | -1 is less efficient than 0xffffff :) |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | ((uint32)-1) << 3 |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | but yeah :) |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: (uint32)-1 == 0xFFFFFFFF |
| 11:15 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: 0xffffffff is a constant :) |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | -1 too :) |
| 11:15 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Phazorx: it's totally a compiler issue, there is nothing about efficiency... |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | Eddi|zuHause2: worse: it is machine issue :) |
| 11:15 | <TrueBrain> | -1 == 0xFFFFFFFF |
| 11:16 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: there was something about ansi c misrepresenting -1 long time ago |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | either in (int32) or (uint32) |
| 11:16 | <Phazorx> | perhaps it does not apply to cpp though |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: ANSI C can't misrepresent anything in this matter |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | it is how machines are build these days :) |
| 11:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, it is the issue of the compiler to convert the representation (-1) to the same as (0xFFFFFFFF) |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | we use two-forgotname |
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| 11:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | two-complement |
| 11:16 | <TrueBrain> | thank you |
| 11:16 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: -1 would become longint if used in context with casting type on it 1st i mean |
| 11:17 | <Phazorx> | without i meant |
| 11:17 | <TrueBrain> | therefor you need the cast, yes ;) |
| 11:17 | <TrueBrain> | but the asm should be the same |
| 11:17 | <TrueBrain> | would be fun to check it out :) |
| 11:17 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | your level of discussion is way too low for my taste :p |
| 11:17 | <TrueBrain> | low, as in low-level? :p |
| 11:17 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: well imagine a routine like if((unit) X == -1) { dostuff();} |
| 11:18 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | TrueBrain: the ambiguity is deliberate :p |
| 11:18 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: that is a pretty faulty statement :) What does work: if (X == (uint)-1) |
| 11:18 | <TrueBrain> | -1 doesn't have a real value if you don't put it in a cast ;) |
| 11:18 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Phazorx: the compiler should warn about that |
| 11:19 | <TrueBrain> | (uint64)-1 != (uint32)-1 |
| 11:19 | <Phazorx> | anwyay, this should not apply these days since it has been know for long while |
| 11:19 | <TrueBrain> | (but okay, (uint64)1 != (uint32)1 either :p |
| 11:19 | <TrueBrain> | hehe |
| 11:19 | <TrueBrain> | so that is a nice faulty statement :p |
| 11:19 | <TrueBrain> | (what I wrote :p) |
| 11:20 | <Phazorx> | well my point was e if((uint) X == 1) would have worked as desired |
| 11:20 | <Phazorx> | whereas e if((uint) X == -1) would not |
| 11:20 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | depends on what you desire |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | indeed :) |
| 11:20 | <Ammler> | TrueBrain: depense on little or big endian |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | but as Eddi|zuHause2 said, the compiler should warn :) |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | Ammler: not really |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | -1 = 0xFF |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | in which ever amount of bytes |
| 11:20 | <Phazorx> | Eddi|zuHause2: if x being the one in 1st case and -1 in second to procede with following statement |
| 11:20 | <TrueBrain> | so in that case, it doesn't matter ;) |
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| 11:21 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ |
| 11:21 | <TrueBrain> | Ammler: for -2 you are right ;) |
| 11:21 | <Phazorx> | if 0xff is -1 what would be 0xfe+1 ? |
| 11:22 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: signed? -1 ;) |
| 11:22 | <Ammler> | -2+1=-1 |
| 11:22 | <TrueBrain> | as 0xFE is -2, if a signed byte |
| 11:22 | <Phazorx> | ahh well we got to signed already |
| 11:22 | <Phazorx> | i missed that step |
| 11:22 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: -1 is 0xFF in unsigned too, although that statement is kind of tricky to state :) |
| 11:23 | <Phazorx> | still thinking of uint and int being word ratehr than byte :) |
| 11:23 | <TrueBrain> | (as -1 is invalud in unsigned :p) |
| 11:23 | <TrueBrain> | oh bla, who cares :p |
| 11:23 | <Ammler> | so, who does make the patch for IP Masks now? |
| 11:23 | <Phazorx> | well we'd really appriciate ip/cidr capability in future |
| 11:24 | <Ammler> | !s/future/now/ |
| 11:24 | <Rubidium> | Ammler: iptables |
| 11:25 | <TrueBrain> | haha @ Rubidium :) |
| 11:25 | <Ammler> | :) |
| 11:25 | <Phazorx> | Rubidium: it narrows down to like chaing of 5 lines in the code now, 3 of which being comments |
| 11:25 | <Rubidium> | Phazorx: I've heard that a lot |
| 11:25 | <Rubidium> | it's "just" one line of code |
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| 11:26 | <Phazorx> | iptables provides nice functionality but that feature already developed in game, just need a bit of widening |
| 11:26 | <Rubidium> | and finally the diff is 50 kB before they actually got it working |
| 11:26 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | "there are only 3 commands needed to install gentoo" :p |
| 11:26 | <Phazorx> | Rubidium: TrueBrain pretty much even stated that line |
| 11:26 | <Phazorx> | just ened to put it in right place |
| 11:26 | <TrueBrain> | if (sin.sin_addr.s_addr == inet_addr(_network_ban_list[i])) { |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | that is the only line needs changing |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | the tricky part is to allow the subnet mask |
| 11:27 | <Sacro> | rawr |
| 11:27 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i think there is a little more needed to change the ban command |
| 11:27 | <Rubidium> | the "tricky" part is reading the subnet mask |
| 11:27 | <Rubidium> | the rest is simple |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | Rubidium: that is what I said ;) |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | strrchr ;) |
| 11:27 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | that is what i meant ;) |
| 11:27 | <Phazorx> | oh yeah... that isnt perl and RE i forgot :) |
| 11:27 | <TrueBrain> | check for /, and it should be easy :) |
| 11:28 | <Ammler> | we could begin with just one format |
| 11:28 | <Rubidium> | yup, not we do IP/32 |
| 11:28 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: and end with just one as well :) |
| 11:28 | <Rubidium> | and we should add IP/0 |
| 11:28 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and then convert 192.168.0.* to 192.168.0.0/8 |
| 11:28 | <Ammler> | hmm, thats fine in future |
| 11:29 | <Phazorx> | i dont think * thingy is really ended in case if you have cidr |
| 11:29 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: many many many many many many many many <..> people don't understand how cidr works |
| 11:29 | <TrueBrain> | ending up with bans on IP/0 |
| 11:34 | <Ammler> | Phazorx: not everyone can calculate the bitshift or how is that called? |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: many people dont know how to drive... yet they get a book, try and eventualy get a license |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: this is different |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | people do know how to do 192.168.0.* |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: this is go to whoispage for isp and copy/paste |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | like many people know how to drive a car, but a few try to drive motor |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: in most cases * will not so what you want |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | and you end up banning too many or too few |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | Phazorx: yup |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | mask-banning in general has that effect |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | proper mask banning has less/does not |
| 11:34 | <Rubidium> | Eddi|zuHause2: 192.168.0.1* then doesn't work... |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | (if I screw up in a server, and get a /29 ban for example, my neighbour can't join either) |
| 11:34 | <Ammler> | I would begin with 24 |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | even a /30 puts my neighbour out of the server too |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | TrueBrain: that's really the price for that |
| 11:34 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Rubidium: no, if you use that syntax, you can only ban /0, /8, /16 etc. |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | i banned whole state because of one prick :) |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | as said, mask-banning in genral has a big downside ;) |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | but having cidr mask it can be targeted more specificaly |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | yup |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | and if people really like entering * in config - that cane be autoreplaced to /8 /16 or /24 |
| 11:34 | <Ammler> | but in future :) |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | unless you want soemthing crazy like a.*.b.c |
| 11:34 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, i think that replacement is rather trivial |
| 11:34 | <Rubidium> | Phazorx: then people *expect* 192.168.0.1*1 to work too |
| 11:34 | <Sacro> | why not use subnet nasking |
| 11:34 | <TrueBrain> | Rubidium: whould they? |
| 11:34 | <Sacro> | 192.168.0.1/255.255.255.0 |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | Rubidium: these people should stop doing RE in C :) |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | Sacro: cidr is same |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | just properly noted |
| 11:34 | <Rubidium> | Sacro: technically that what you've written isn't correct |
| 11:34 | <Ammler> | Sacro: thats 192.168.0.0/24, I guess |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | and realy i'm talking about much lesser change for these who have the knowledge and can use it like tomorrow |
| 11:34 | <Phazorx> | and you want to offere more features while complaining it is more than 5 lines of code |
| 11:37 | <TrueBrain> | http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/temp.patch |
| 11:38 | <TrueBrain> | or something |
| 11:38 | <TrueBrain> | hmm |
| 11:38 | <TrueBrain> | not 100% correct |
| 11:38 | <Phazorx> | thanks TrueBrain |
| 11:38 | <TrueBrain> | reload |
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| 11:39 | <TrueBrain> | totally untested |
| 11:39 | <TrueBrain> | even not compiled |
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| 11:40 | <Ammler> | Phazorx: do you test it? |
| 11:41 | <Phazorx> | have no means atm |
| 11:41 | <Phazorx> | will test later when i get back home |
| 11:41 | <Phazorx> | but i hope by then it'll be in trunk already :) |
| 11:42 | <TrueBrain> | I won't do it :) |
| 11:42 | <TrueBrain> | I just wondered if it really took 5 lines :p |
| 11:42 | <Phazorx> | oh cmon |
| 11:42 | <Phazorx> | so close |
| 11:42 | <TrueBrain> | testing is a bitch :p |
| 11:42 | <TrueBrain> | no time :) |
| 11:43 | <Ammler> | yeah, np, do you see a problem, if we only patch the server? |
| 11:43 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | little boxes, on the hillside... |
| 11:43 | <TrueBrain> | Ammler: my patch won't work |
| 11:44 | <Phazorx> | Ammler: a modded working version of that - can be done server side only |
| 11:45 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | what happens if the server bans itself? |
| 11:45 | <TrueBrain> | Eddi|zuHause2: nothing |
| 11:46 | <Phazorx> | Eddi|zuHause2: care to elablorate on HOW server can ban itself |
| 11:46 | <Phazorx> | like grew hands and type that command somewhere? |
| 11:46 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | /ban your.ip? |
| 11:46 | <Phazorx> | Eddi|zuHause2: and where that line would come from? |
| 11:47 | <TrueBrain> | so, my patch given, knowing itoa should be atoi, who is going to finish my lovely patch and test it? |
| 11:47 | <TrueBrain> | one of you knows C, right? :) |
| 11:48 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i'm busy... |
| 11:48 | <Rubidium> | lovely ain't it... everybody is busy enough to not care about subnet banning :) |
| 11:49 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't run a server, nor do i play online, so it is definitely not my immediate problem :p |
| 11:50 | <Ammler> | :( |
| 11:50 | <Ammler> | is there a dev, who does also play OTTD? |
| 11:50 | <Sacro> | nope |
| 11:50 | <Sacro> | none of the devs play |
| 11:51 | <Ammler> | The game for them is developing OTTD |
| 11:51 | <TrueBrain> | I never did, why would I? |
| 11:51 | <+glx> | we play only to debug :) |
| 11:51 | <TrueBrain> | I never even started the game |
| 11:51 | <TrueBrain> | don't know how it looks like |
| 11:51 | <TrueBrain> | my work is always theoretical |
| 11:51 | <TrueBrain> | others do the testing |
| 11:51 | <Ammler> | oh, I know, you played... |
| 11:52 | <TrueBrain> | doh, busted |
| 11:52 | <Rubidium> | Ammler: when? |
| 11:52 | <Ammler> | beginning of coop |
| 11:52 | <Rubidium> | you must be confusing TrueBrain with TrueLight or so |
| 11:52 | <Ammler> | oh sry, yes |
| 11:52 | <TrueBrain> | yeah, that is someone else |
| 11:52 | <TrueBrain> | I think |
| 11:55 | <Ammler> | we are planning a coopetition game on #openttdcoop, maybe devs would like to be a group against us? |
| 11:56 | <Ammler> | oh, no, they have patched clients and will cheat all the time... :) |
| 11:56 | <TrueBrain> | nah, we just have a special login-code |
| 11:57 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r11193 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix: be more compliant with the specifications of callback #2F (and undocumented side effects in TTDP in corner cases). |
| 12:01 | <Ammler> | ok, whish you all a nice evening |
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| 12:03 | <TrueBrain> | have fun Ammler :) |
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| 12:12 | <Wolf01> | hello |
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| 12:20 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | <TrueBrain> yeah, that is someone else <- nothing better than a tiny bit of schitzophreny :p |
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| 12:20 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | makes for a great deal of excuses :p |
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| 12:23 | <dihedral> | hello |
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| 12:36 | <skidd13> | TTRS 3.02a makes OpenTTD look ugly. All text is gone and I see parts of bridges on the screen :( |
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| 12:40 | <Rubidium> | skidd13: any idea since when? |
| 12:41 | <skidd13> | nope |
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| 12:41 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ |
| 12:42 | <TrueBrain> | welcome orudge |
| 12:42 | <@orudge> | Hello there |
| 12:42 | <@orudge> | although, I was always here ;) |
| 12:42 | <@orudge> | I just accidentally pressed apple-Q |
| 12:43 | <TrueBrain> | doh :p |
| 12:43 | <dihedral> | hello orudge |
| 12:43 | [~] | orudge finally got his new PC working today |
| 12:43 | <@orudge> | so once I get things sorted out, I'll be able to compile OS/2 :p |
| 12:44 | [~] | ProfFrink compiles OS/4 |
| 12:45 | <ProfFrink> | Hey! |
| 12:45 | |-| | ProfFrink changed nick to Prof_Frink |
| 12:46 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | OS/4... is that half a half an OS? |
| 12:46 | [~] | Prof_Frink wonders when oftc dopped out of his keepnick config |
| 12:46 | <Prof_Frink> | Eddi|zuHause2: No, a quarter. Duh. |
| 12:48 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r11194 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: industries with not all tiles custom slope checked (but at least one) would be build on wrongly sloped tiles. |
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| 13:39 | <@orudge> | Prof_Frink! oi! you! nutter! |
| 13:40 | <Prof_Frink> | Y'what, eh? |
| 13:41 | <@orudge> | just thought I'd shout at people |
| 13:41 | <@orudge> | or, well, a person. |
| 13:41 | <Prof_Frink> | Art thou globester? |
| 13:41 | <@orudge> | Well, no. |
| 13:42 | <@orudge> | But I just thought I'd do it anyway. |
| 13:42 | <@orudge> | This place was a bit quite, y'know. |
| 13:42 | <@orudge> | quiet |
| 13:42 | <@orudge> | even. |
| 13:42 | <Sacro> | ofudge its an orudge |
| 13:43 | <@orudge> | it's you |
| 13:43 | <@orudge> | you appear to have been somewhat vanished over the past few days |
| 13:43 | <Sacro> | nope, i'm here |
| 13:43 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r11195 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: creation chances for industries during gameplay and during map generation were swapped. |
| 13:43 | <@orudge> | no, on #tycoon, innit |
| 13:43 | <@orudge> | but ah well |
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| 13:44 | <Sacro> | yes, i have removed it from my bouncer's autojoin list |
| 13:44 | <Sacro> | right, to the Hull-LUG! |
| 13:47 | <mattt_> | Hull.. as in Hull, Quebec? |
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| 14:24 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ |
| 14:24 | <globester> | jow |
| 14:25 | <globester> | got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies :o |
| 14:25 | <globester> | also i can't build the sh40 |
| 14:28 | |-| | |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] |
| 14:29 | <@Bjarni> | ahh |
| 14:29 | <@Bjarni> | finally home :D |
| 14:31 | <globester> | \o/ |
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| 14:38 | <@Bjarni> | well, my current task: finish assignment for tomorrow |
| 14:43 | <skidd13> | good night |
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| 15:20 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: glx * r11196 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11191): _cur_stage was incorrect for GLS_ACTIVATION stage |
| 15:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | since when do we have CIA-4? |
| 15:22 | |-| | KouDy_ [user@85.207.64.178] has joined #openttd |
| 15:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i just wondered that he has a strange colour today |
| 15:22 | <SmatZ> | [19:24:21] <-- CIA-1 has left this server (resistance.oftc.net charm.oftc.net). |
| 15:22 | <SmatZ> | [19:24:36] --> CIA-4 has joined this channel (cia@208.69.182.149). |
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| 15:44 | <mcbane> | heh glx was 3 seconds faster with that comment =P |
| 15:44 | <+glx> | hehe |
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| 16:02 | <@Bjarni> | quit timing out |
| 16:02 | <@Bjarni> | you are interrupting all the important stuff going on in here :P |
| 16:02 | <Amixwoktest> | yeah |
| 16:02 | <globester> | i've got a question though |
| 16:02 | <Amixwoktest> | :=) |
| 16:02 | <globester> | got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies |
| 16:03 | <@Bjarni> | 0.5.3 or nightly? |
| 16:03 | <globester> | loaded the autosave but now the sh40 doesn't appear at all heh |
| 16:03 | <globester> | nightly |
| 16:03 | <Amixwoktest> | latest one? |
| 16:03 | <globester> | r11181 |
| 16:03 | <Rubidium> | that is NOT the latest one... |
| 16:03 | <@Bjarni> | sounds very much like you substracted more kirbies than you actually sold |
| 16:03 | <globester> | :o |
| 16:04 | <globester> | well, i didn't have any kirbies to start with heh |
| 16:04 | <@Bjarni> | o_O |
| 16:04 | <globester> | i think it happened right after sh40's appearing |
| 16:04 | <globester> | when i reloaded it says i have 0 :/ |
| 16:04 | <@Bjarni> | try to reproduce this |
| 16:04 | <globester> | yeah, i was trying it |
| 16:04 | <@Bjarni> | the number of engines is not saved, but counted on load |
| 16:05 | <globester> | after the reload the sh40 didn't appear at all though |
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| 16:06 | <mcbane> | bjarni that buf is somewhere in the bugtracker |
| 16:06 | <mcbane> | buf = bug |
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| 16:16 | <fjb> | Moin |
| 16:18 | [~] | Hendikins plays a game of "how much coal can you get in a 20x20 station catchment area?" |
| 16:18 | <mcbane> | sers |
| 16:18 | <fjb> | Hendikins, the king of coal. :-) |
| 16:19 | <Ammler> | I liked to test the "forbidden" basetunnels on openttd, how can I simulate unifiedmaglev=1? |
| 16:19 | <Hendikins> | fjb: I'm just adding more and more mines to try and saturate my route. |
| 16:19 | <Rafagd> | (x coal = money hax =\ x) 147 |
| 16:19 | <fjb> | What are "forbidden" basetunnels? |
| 16:19 | [~] | Hendikins is only actually using 20x3 for trains, and has scattered bits of detached station to cover the catchment area |
| 16:20 | <Ammler> | fjb: they are from eis_os and mustn't be used on OTTD. |
| 16:20 | <fjb> | Do you play in desert? I never have anough space between the mountains. |
| 16:21 | <fjb> | And what is eis_os? |
| 16:21 | <mcbane> | eis_os is a TTD dev |
| 16:22 | <Ammler> | he made some cool stuff for TTDPatch and grfcrawler |
| 16:22 | <fjb> | Thank you. |
| 16:23 | <fjb> | I have a question about tram stops. Do the have to be as least as long as the tram? |
| 16:23 | <+glx> | no |
| 16:23 | <dihedral> | do you guys consider "teleports" a bug? |
| 16:23 | <fjb> | I guess Einstein would... |
| 16:24 | <Rubidium> | Ammler: base tunnels *are* explicitly disallowed (by the NewGRF) for OpenTTD. |
| 16:24 | <@Bjarni> | <fjb> And what is eis_os? <-- it's "who", not "what".... he is a person, not an item :P |
| 16:24 | <dihedral> | i.e. using station spread to make rv's more profitable? |
| 16:24 | <Rafagd> | tram ins not always 1 "car"? |
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| 16:25 | |-| | Mark changed nick to Mark|asleep |
| 16:25 | <Ammler> | Rubidium: you mean, its coded to not support OTTD, wow. |
| 16:25 | <Wolf01|AWAY> | 'night |
| 16:25 | <Rubidium> | exactly |
| 16:25 | <dihedral> | nicht |
| 16:25 | |-| | Wolf01|AWAY [~wolf01@host240-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] |
| 16:25 | <dihedral> | *night |
| 16:25 | <fjb> | Don't know how articulatet road vehicels work. Thought they get a penalty when loading and unloading when they are longer as the stop. Thought it would be same as when a train is longer then the railway station. |
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| 16:33 | <@Bjarni> | looks like Vadim wants to worship me as a god... |
| 16:34 | <@Bjarni> | do I appear that all mighty to you? |
| 16:35 | <fjb> | WhO? |
| 16:35 | <Prof_Frink> | Bjarni: How's your thunderbolt-weilding? |
| 16:36 | <@Bjarni> | better than you would expect |
| 16:36 | <@Bjarni> | fjb: Vadim |
| 16:36 | |-| | elmex [~elmex@e180065086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 16:36 | <@Bjarni> | I just told you :P |
| 16:37 | <@Bjarni> | will you guys worship me as well? |
| 16:37 | <fjb> | Bjarni: I meant, who appears mighty? :-) |
| 16:37 | <TrueBrain> | @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over |
| 16:37 | |-| | fjb kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [me] |
| 16:37 | |-| | fjb [~frank@p5485D449.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd |
| 16:37 | <TrueBrain> | hmm |
| 16:38 | <TrueBrain> | @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over |
| 16:38 | |-| | Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over] |
| 16:38 | |-| | Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41662.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd |
| 16:38 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ |
| 16:38 | <@Bjarni> | haha |
| 16:38 | <TrueBrain> | Ah, there it is :) |
| 16:38 | <fjb> | :-P |
| 16:38 | <@Bjarni> | even DorpsGek is aware of my new status |
| 16:38 | <@Bjarni> | and then again, maybe not |
| 16:39 | <@Bjarni> | TrueBrain: don't interrupt me. I'm making a survey based on feedback I got today |
| 16:39 | <TrueBrain> | @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over |
| 16:39 | |-| | Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over] |
| 16:39 | |-| | Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41662.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd |
| 16:39 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ |
| 16:39 | <@Bjarni> | I want to know if there are similar naive people in here |
| 16:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. |
| 16:40 | <@Bjarni> | cool |
| 16:41 | <@Bjarni> | I could be the start of a new religion |
| 16:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but i think you spoiled your relationship with Sacro already |
| 16:41 | <@Bjarni> | oh |
| 16:41 | [~] | Prof_Frink points Bjarni at the 'o' section of the nicklist |
| 16:42 | <fjb> | Starting a new religion is useless, but maybe you could get rich that way. Hm, lets start a new religion. |
| 16:42 | <@Bjarni> | well |
| 16:42 | <@Bjarni> | I call it opportunity |
| 16:43 | <@Bjarni> | I got worshippers even before I realised that I could start a religion |
| 16:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the question is, if you can get a couple of RICH worshippers |
| 16:45 | <@Bjarni> | or convince people that they should sell all their organs and donate the money |
| 16:45 | <fjb> | I you can't, get lots of poor worshippers and tell them to give you they have. :-) |
| 16:46 | <fjb> | If |
| 16:47 | <@Bjarni> | actually just as long as people worship me, I can get reduced taxes :D |
| 16:47 | <Prof_Frink> | Just smite the taxman. |
| 16:48 | [~] | Sacro is highlighted |
| 16:48 | <fjb> | You still pay taxes? :-) |
| 16:48 | <@Bjarni> | right now? |
| 16:48 | <@Bjarni> | no |
| 16:48 | <@Bjarni> | paying income tax would need an income :s |
| 16:48 | <Sacro> | taxies? |
| 16:49 | <fjb> | How can I park a concorde in front of my head qarter? |
| 16:49 | <Prof_Frink> | Taxi for Sacro |
| 16:49 | <fjb> | No taxis, use the bike. |
| 16:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i really do not understand why this 3D thing is not working :( |
| 16:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | all driver output looks ok |
| 16:54 | <Sacro> | What gets longer when pulled, fits between breasts, inserts neatly in a hole, and works best when jerked? |
| 16:54 | <Sacro> | A Seatbelt! |
| 16:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what does "jerked" mean in that context? |
| 16:56 | <@Bjarni> | I think it's when you pull it so fast that it locks |
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| 17:04 | <gynterk> | hey, is there any other way to use 'non-stop' exept with 'TTDPatch comatible nonstop handling'? |
| 17:04 | <gynterk> | Since server admins don't want to enable it... |
| 17:06 | |-| | MarkSlap [~shit@h241n3c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:06 | <Sacro> | yes, you can use it without it |
| 17:06 | <Sacro> | just clicky on the button |
| 17:07 | <gynterk> | it doesn't work for me |
| 17:07 | <gynterk> | still stops in station |
| 17:07 | <@Bjarni> | yeah |
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| 17:07 | <@Bjarni> | then it will just head for that station and not stop at any stations on the way |
| 17:08 | <@Bjarni> | you can use a waypoint instead |
| 17:08 | <@Bjarni> | but they are limited to one tile only |
| 17:08 | <@Bjarni> | trains never stops at waypoints |
| 17:08 | <gynterk> | yes |
| 17:08 | <dihedral> | g'night ladies :-) |
| 17:08 | <gynterk> | i wouldn't use non-stop if waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile ;) |
| 17:09 | <gynterk> | good night dihedral |
| 17:09 | <@Bjarni> | waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile if ludde had understood what they were needed for when he coded them :/ |
| 17:10 | <Sacro> | Bjarni: you have the commit rights |
| 17:10 | <Sacro> | EDIT IT |
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| 17:10 | <@Bjarni> | expanding them to more than one tile is the same as starting over |
| 17:10 | |-| | Farden123 [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-33-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd |
| 17:10 | <gynterk> | yes, but this would be excellent feature... |
| 17:11 | <Prof_Frink> | Well, if you're starting over, you could use waypoints as an equivalent to ttdpatch's signalling restrictions |
| 17:13 | <fjb> | I think they are different. Way points are one thing, something like signal restrictions are the other. I thought about a kind of penalty marker that you could set on any pice of track. |
| 17:15 | <fjb> | The penalty marker could share same same tile with a signal. |
| 17:16 | <gynterk> | ah and btw, does anyone know a grf what changes signal system in intersections that it's possible to have more than 1 train there, if tracks would set that there would be no way those trains will crash |
| 17:17 | <Prof_Frink> | fjb: And why shouldn't a waypoint? |
| 17:17 | <fjb> | Tekki is working on a new cool signal system. At least I hope he is still working on it. |
| 17:17 | |-| | Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-122-230.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:19 | <SmatZ> | there was some NAND signal system - very nice to make complex logic functions :) |
| 17:19 | <Sacro> | SmatZ: NOR is more fun |
| 17:19 | <SmatZ> | :-D |
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| 17:19 | <Sacro> | but quite useless for building a station |
| 17:19 | <fjb> | A way point is a way to tell a train go there. It is something else then setting penalties for the pathfinder. Its mor like a negative penalty. Kind of a reward for the pathfinder. |
| 17:19 | <Sacro> | caused me way too many accidents |
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| 17:20 | <fjb> | We really need the thing that Tekki talked about. It's like the real signal systems work. And they work that way because there is no better way. |
| 17:23 | |-| | Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
| 17:23 | <Greyscale> | Whats happening here then? |
| 17:24 | |-| | FlowaPowa [~FlowaPowa@4va54-4-82-244-103-144.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd |
| 17:24 | <Sacro> | we are about to have our weekly sacrifice |
| 17:24 | |-| | Farden123 [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-33-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 17:24 | <Sacro> | just need a n00b |
| 17:25 | <a1270> | i suggest Greyscale |
| 17:25 | <gynterk> | is 10 clients and 8 companies max for a server? |
| 17:25 | [~] | Bjarni nominates a1270 |
| 17:25 | <Greyscale> | Sup. |
| 17:25 | <Greyscale> | I nominate a1270 too, because I can kick his ass. |
| 17:25 | <Greyscale> | that reminds me to check my company |
| 17:25 | <a1270> | i'm sort of kicking your ass. |
| 17:26 | <gynterk> | well I don't know who a1270 is, but i'll nominate a1270 |
| 17:26 | [~] | Sacro tallies the votes |
| 17:26 | <Sacro> | anyone else want to cast one? |
| 17:27 | <globester> | i vote CIA-4 |
| 17:27 | <Greyscale> | a1270, your compile of our version of OTTD is still broken |
| 17:27 | <fjb> | How can I look more closely at a tramtrack in a city? Even the transparent buildings make the streets that dark that I don'nt see why my trams just stop at a bend and try to drive straight ahead into the next building. |
| 17:27 | <a1270> | the gods don't like me. they will give you bad crops next year. |
| 17:27 | <globester> | other graphic files fjb? |
| 17:27 | <Greyscale> | Game needs civilian traffic |
| 17:27 | <Greyscale> | like, in large citys, cars that drive about |
| 17:27 | <fjb> | globester: What di you mean? |
| 17:27 | <Greyscale> | and clog the road |
| 17:27 | <gynterk> | how do you build trams ? |
| 17:28 | <a1270> | Greyscale, i just un7zip'd it and i can connect. |
| 17:28 | <Greyscale> | Oo |
| 17:28 | <gynterk> | i wanna drive trams to buildings too |
| 17:28 | <Greyscale> | wierd |
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| 17:28 | <Greyscale> | a1270, relink? |
| 17:28 | <globester> | well if you change the graphics to ones with more contrast it might be easier to see them |
| 17:28 | <fjb> | Trams are in the nightly build. |
| 17:28 | <gynterk> | ah ok |
| 17:29 | <fjb> | Hm, but I don't havfe other graphics at hand. |
| 17:31 | <fjb> | I'm trying th use a magnifier now. |
| 17:32 | <globester> | heh |
| 17:32 | <gynterk> | hmm interesting |
| 17:32 | <gynterk> | i nearly flooded all of my railways |
| 17:32 | <fjb> | Where is the next tram? It's never there when you need one. |
| 17:35 | <fjb> | Hey, it works now. ut is there a way to turn around a stuck tram? I just had to reload an autosave from bevore it got stuck. :-( |
| 17:43 | <goddamnit> | no |
| 17:43 | <goddamnit> | u have to lay track infront |
| 17:43 | <fjb> | I would like to have a transrapid just go through the middle of the city. |
| 17:43 | <goddamnit> | u can |
| 17:43 | <goddamnit> | jsut take alot of planning |
| 17:43 | <goddamnit> | but why the middle? |
| 17:44 | <fjb> | But what do you do if you can't put a track in front of the tram? |
| 17:44 | <Amixwoktest> | you have to be careful in the cities |
| 17:44 | <goddamnit> | GG NO RE |
| 17:44 | <Amixwoktest> | hehe |
| 17:44 | <Amixwoktest> | dont build dead ends there |
| 17:44 | <fjb> | I have an aiport in the middle of that city. |
| 17:44 | <Amixwoktest> | especially in cities that hates you |
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| 17:45 | <fjb> | Amixwoktest; there should have been no dead end. It took me three times till there was really a bend. The tracks did cross instead of bend. |
| 17:46 | <gynterk> | buy them |
| 17:46 | <gynterk> | and plant trees |
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| 17:46 | |-| | mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ |
| 17:46 | <gynterk> | hmm it isn't possible to demolish tram tracks ? |
| 17:46 | <Amixwoktest> | fjb: the tram construction works like road construction |
| 17:46 | <Amixwoktest> | so i guess thats the thing |
| 17:47 | <fjb> | Not much space left to build trees. And the city still likes me. And I like that city. I hate to destroy big buildings. |
| 17:48 | <fjb> | Amixwoktest: I know. The problem was, that one track was kind of pointing into the next building instead of joining the other track to build a bend. |
| 17:48 | <Amixwoktest> | mhm |
| 17:48 | <Amixwoktest> | same happened to me |
| 17:49 | <fjb> | And it was in the middle of a big city, so just a really dark corner with transparent buildings. I had to use a sreen magnifier to find out what happened. |
| 17:50 | <Amixwoktest> | fjb: thats why i build http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/OpenTTD/Brondingtown.png |
| 17:50 | <Amixwoktest> | build the tram in the middle |
| 17:50 | <Amixwoktest> | so that town builds arround it later on |
| 17:52 | <fjb> | Once there was a small town. Then came a small airport. Then came the railway. Then the town grew. Now the airport is way too small. I build a bigger airport next to the town, but now I have to join the two airports somehow. |
| 17:53 | <fjb> | But it's really fun to see an Airbus descend in the middle of a big city. :-) |
| 17:54 | <fjb> | I wouldn't try it with my concorde... |
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| 18:01 | <Amixwoktest> | hehe |
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| 18:02 | <globester> | i've got a terminus line, 1 track station but it's bringing in 150k a year atm because it's right in the middle of the city |
| 18:02 | <globester> | can't change it anymore unless i destroy a big part of the city heh |
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| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2014.%20Mar%201926.png <- my tram |
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| 18:03 | <gynterk> | is it possible to see chat history/log ? |
| 18:03 | <fjb> | Soma as my airport. I enhanced it to a commuter airport. Bur I can't make it bidgger. That's why I thought about the Transrapid. |
| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%206.%20Jan%201924.png <- earlier version |
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| 18:05 | <fjb> | Nice place for a station. |
| 18:05 | <gynterk> | anyone ? |
| 18:05 | <gynterk> | chatlog, somewhere ? |
| 18:05 | <SmatZ> | !log |
| 18:06 | <SmatZ> | hmm |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | !logs |
| 18:06 | <SpComb> | Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd ) |
| 18:06 | <gynterk> | nono |
| 18:06 | <gynterk> | i mean in-game :D |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the console has some kind of log |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it probably does not go very far |
| 18:06 | <gynterk> | ah |
| 18:06 | <gynterk> | thanks |
| 18:06 | <gynterk> | didn't know there was console |
| 18:07 | <gynterk> | is* |
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| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- this is a much nicer station ;) |
| 18:10 | |-| | nickname [~ident@ip70-176-19-85.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #openttd |
| 18:10 | <nickname> | my setting is set to US English, but it says tonnes instead of tons |
| 18:10 | <nickname> | is there something wrong? |
| 18:10 | <Brianetta> | no |
| 18:10 | <Brianetta> | A ton is imperial, a tonne metric |
| 18:10 | <Brianetta> | Nothing to do with country |
| 18:10 | <nickname> | mmm |
| 18:10 | <nickname> | but i've never heard tonne |
| 18:11 | <Brianetta> | It's 1000kg |
| 18:11 | <nickname> | weird |
| 18:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nickname: just also change to imperial settings |
| 18:11 | <Brianetta> | Not as weird as pounds etc |
| 18:11 | <nickname> | Eddi|zuHause: it is set to imperial |
| 18:11 | <ln-> | did you ever hear of kg? |
| 18:11 | <ln-> | d |
| 18:11 | <ln-> | -d |
| 18:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then you are screwed :p |
| 18:12 | <nickname> | that just seems to effect mph/kph |
| 18:12 | <nickname> | yes i've heard of kg |
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| 18:12 | <Brianetta> | Does it use HP or KW for power? |
| 18:12 | <nickname> | looks like imperial/metric uses hp and SI uses KW |
| 18:13 | <nickname> | interseting... if it put it on SI then it says 25,000 kg instead of tonnes |
| 18:13 | <Brianetta> | That's because a tonne isn't an SI unit |
| 18:13 | <Brianetta> | The kilogramme is |
| 18:13 | <gynterk> | i like si... |
| 18:14 | <nickname> | but if tonne is metric and ton is imperial, why doesnt it say ton when i set to imperial |
| 18:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i just don't like giving speeds in m/s |
| 18:14 | <Brianetta> | nickname: File that as a bug |
| 18:14 | <Brianetta> | It should give power in KW in metric mode, too |
| 18:14 | <nickname> | ah |
| 18:14 | <nickname> | ok |
| 18:14 | <gynterk> | Eddi|zuHause: i can calculate fast :P |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | gynterk: i can'T |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have studied too much maths for that :p |
| 18:15 | <gynterk> | :D |
| 18:15 | <ln-> | Brianetta: kW |
| 18:15 | <Brianetta> | ln-: You knew what I meant |
| 18:16 | <ln-> | Brianetta: you can pro gue wha i mea if i onl wri 3 fir let, but is tha goo the? |
| 18:17 | <Brianetta> | you what? |
| 18:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ln-: that does not work well in german :p |
| 18:17 | <ln-> | Eddi|zuHause: tat? sch. |
| 18:18 | [~] | glx understood what ln- said :) |
| 18:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | vor has du pro mit zus wör. |
| 18:19 | <+glx> | but I needed to read it at least 3 times |
| 18:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ans wer deu wör gru wes län als eng wör |
| 18:20 | <Brianetta> | Helen has enrolled on a German beginners course. |
| 18:20 | <ln-> | who is Hel? |
| 18:20 | <Brianetta> | We're planning to go to Leipzig for Wave next year. |
| 18:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Leipzig is right around the corner from here |
| 18:20 | <Brianetta> | Cool. Where is ,here'? |
| 18:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i live near Halle (Saale) |
| 18:21 | <fjb> | I have been in Halle last winter. |
| 18:22 | <Brianetta> | You have a mini version of the cathedral in Köln (: |
| 18:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | actually, that is two churches who merged |
| 18:23 | <Brianetta> | Physically? |
| 18:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | basically they removed the second church, except from the towers, and then extended the other one to those towers |
| 18:24 | <Brianetta> | wow |
| 18:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's why it has 4 towers |
| 18:24 | <Brianetta> | and a cathedral, two castles... |
| 18:25 | <Brianetta> | That place rocks |
| 18:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | together with the "red tower" in the middle of the market place, it creates the characteristic "5 towers" of halle |
| 18:25 | <Phazorx> | imperial should also have barrels insetad of liters for liquids |
| 18:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, halle is the birthplace of Georg Friedrich Händel |
| 18:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | famous composer |
| 18:26 | <Brianetta> | Fast composer |
| 18:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | most famous pieces are the fireworks music, the water music, and the messiah |
| 18:27 | <Brianetta> | although he wrote that in London |
| 18:27 | <Brianetta> | he did the whole work in about a fortnight |
| 18:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, he worked there most of the time |
| 18:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are "Händelfestspiele" every year |
| 18:29 | <Brianetta> | ugh |
| 18:29 | <Brianetta> | I never liked him that much |
| 18:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you don't have to ;) |
| 18:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we have other stuff, too |
| 18:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like a beatles museum |
| 18:29 | <Brianetta> | Shopping till 11! |
| 18:30 | <Brianetta> | That's on Friday |
| 18:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | oh, btw. the church with the 4 towers is not the cathedral |
| 18:30 | <Brianetta> | I know |
| 18:30 | <Brianetta> | the cathedral has no towers |
| 18:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is correct ;) |
| 18:31 | <Brianetta> | http://www.halle.de/index.asp?MenuID=1164 |
| 18:31 | <Brianetta> | live webcam of the Marktplatz |
| 18:31 | <Brianetta> | The Red Tower is hidden in a box )-: |
| 18:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, they are working on it right now |
| 18:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i live about 15km in the direction of that camera |
| 18:34 | <gynterk> | is it allowed that Owen's TTS is provading links to download TTD data ? |
| 18:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | are you complaining? |
| 18:34 | <@orudge> | well |
| 18:34 | <@orudge> | it's not strictly speaking legal, no. |
| 18:35 | <@orudge> | but effectively, the powers that be don't seem to care |
| 18:35 | <@orudge> | and I was fed up of receiving e-mails asking where to download TTD :P |
| 18:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | iirc i got mine from ttdlxhq |
| 18:37 | <ln-> | i bought a copy of TTD through amazon.co.uk recently. |
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| 18:38 | <fjb> | They still sell it? |
| 18:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i bought TT when it came out |
| 18:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the world editor later |
| 18:39 | <fjb> | I didn't know about TT or TTD till a few days ago. |
| 18:40 | <gynterk> | .. |
| 18:40 | <gynterk> | have played it since kid |
| 18:40 | <Brianetta> | It hasn't been around since I was a kid )-: |
| 18:41 | <Brianetta> | I was all adultified and growed up when it came out |
| 18:41 | <gynterk> | who holds copyright over TT(D) ? |
| 18:41 | <ln-> | i first found TT on a pirate CD bought from Tallinn. |
| 18:41 | <Brianetta> | Nobody is certain |
| 18:41 | <Brianetta> | If there was any certainty, there would be fewer problems getting the legalities sorted out |
| 18:42 | <fjb> | Atari holds the copyright. |
| 18:42 | <gynterk> | ln-: From Kadaka market :D ? |
| 18:42 | <ln-> | gynterk: mustamäe |
| 18:42 | <@orudge> | do they, though, fjb, or do they just hold the marketing rights? The About window claims Chris Sawyer owns the copyright... |
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| 18:44 | <gynterk> | ah its like it was with Build engine |
| 18:45 | <fjb> | Did Chris Sawyer say anything about OpenTTD yet? |
| 18:45 | <ln-> | indirectly |
| 18:45 | <fjb> | What did he say? |
| 18:47 | <Brianetta> | Well, he's not going to update our about boxes if he sells his copyright |
| 18:48 | <@orudge> | We've had these discussions many times before, fjb ;) We should archive them somewhere, perhaps |
| 18:48 | <@orudge> | apart from in the !logs |
| 18:48 | <@orudge> | but anyway |
| 18:48 | <@orudge> | Chris Sawyer hasn't said anything as such |
| 18:48 | <@orudge> | but somebody close to him says he apparently isn't much of an OpenTTD fan |
| 18:49 | <+glx> | nor a TTDP fan |
| 18:49 | <@orudge> | Indeed not |
| 18:50 | <gynterk> | does he even like the original game? |
| 18:50 | <fjb> | I guess he lieks it. He wrote it. :-) |
| 18:50 | <ln-> | sure |
| 18:51 | <@orudge> | He doesn't like people changing his "vision" |
| 18:51 | <@orudge> | TTD was meant to be the way it was meant to be, warts and all, he says |
| 18:52 | <@orudge> | practically speaking though, there's not that much he can do about TTDPatch, which is technically legal, and OpenTTD, which, well, is debatable |
| 18:52 | <@orudge> | it's not really worth his time or trouble to mount legal action |
| 18:52 | <@orudge> | he's currently in the middle of legal action against Atari anyway |
| 18:53 | <+glx> | why? |
| 18:53 | <fjb> | It would be a big step if OpenTTD didn't need the original files anymore. |
| 18:53 | <@Belugas> | we might one day |
| 18:53 | <@orudge> | why is he suing Atari, glx? |
| 18:53 | <@orudge> | you mean? |
| 18:53 | <+glx> | yes |
| 18:54 | <@orudge> | http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0,1000000308,39236481,00.htm |
| 18:54 | <@orudge> | http://legalit.itproportal.com/?p=659 too |
| 18:54 | <ln-> | he's scottish? |
| 18:54 | <fjb> | OpenTTD goes far beyond of what TTD does. And it looks like there is not that much of the reverse engeneered code anymore. |
| 18:54 | <Brianetta> | fjb: That doesn't matter a jot. |
| 18:54 | <Brianetta> | It's a derrived work. |
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| 18:55 | <Brianetta> | Each revision is a derivative of the one before, right back to a decompilation event. |
| 18:55 | <@orudge> | ln-: Yes |
| 18:55 | <@orudge> | He lives about an hour away from where I am right now |
| 18:55 | <@Belugas> | and there are a lot of lines untouched from initial release, be sure of that |
| 18:55 | <@orudge> | I could pop over and offer him a drink ;) |
| 18:55 | <ln-> | you should do that |
| 18:56 | <ln-> | hmmm, being scottish explains the buildings from glasgow. |
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| 18:56 | <Phazorx> | orudge: you should do that |
| 18:57 | <Phazorx> | and i tihnk the fact that openttd existance prolongs life of his project - he should be happy about |
| 18:57 | <gynterk> | yeah |
| 18:57 | <gynterk> | and convince him to open-source all TTD data |
| 18:57 | <@orudge> | Haha, not going to happen, alas |
| 18:57 | <@orudge> | Chris has his own way of doing things, it seems |
| 18:57 | <@orudge> | and now |
| 18:57 | <@orudge> | I'm off to bed |
| 18:58 | <Brianetta> | (boing) |
| 18:58 | <gynterk> | ok |
| 18:58 | <gynterk> | I'm off to bed too |
| 18:58 | <gynterk> | night |
| 18:58 | <@Belugas> | night orudge |
| 18:58 | <ln-> | knight orudge |
| 18:58 | <@orudge> | Night knight gnight fight! |
| 18:58 | <@orudge> | etc |
| 18:59 | <ln-> | but seriously, it's not a good idea to try to "convince" someone earning a living from games to open-source them |
| 19:00 | <ln-> | the better way would be to negotiate a reasonable price for things. |
| 19:02 | <gynterk> | hmm |
| 19:02 | <gynterk> | but does Chris hold (c) over graphics ? |
| 19:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i can imagine that Atari does not completely want to clarify ownership because it might reveal some other dead bodies in their basement |
| 19:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | e.g. in context with that lawsuit above |
| 19:06 | <ln-> | who was the bonehead who contacted the graphics artist and asked if he'd like to draw new graphics for OTTD for free? |
| 19:07 | <Phazorx> | ln-: he gots royalties from every copy of ottd sold? |
| 19:07 | <Phazorx> | sounds like a ncie arangement for one who makes living of selling games |
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| 19:08 | <ln-> | i have no idea what kind of a deal sawyer and others have. |
| 19:09 | <Phazorx> | ln-: i mean that can be an arrangement for ottd |
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| 19:09 | <fjb> | There are some really talented artists who make graphics for OpenTTD and TTDP. It would be better to convince one of the to do new graphics. |
| 19:09 | <Phazorx> | and biggest offence i can uimagine would be not having his name on title screen of the game |
| 19:10 | <Phazorx> | fjb: that does not change the fact of ottd being derivative of tt |
| 19:10 | <ln-> | fjb: such graphics could still be considered a derivative work. |
| 19:11 | <fjb> | We have the svn logs of the last years. Everything that was there before could be replaced an documentet in the logs. But that would be much work. The BDS people did the same thing. Now BSD is free from every Copyright. |
| 19:14 | <ln-> | BSD is public domain now? |
| 19:14 | <ln-> | fjb: and actually part of svn history has been lost. |
| 19:15 | <fjb> | I should have said it's free from the UNIX copyright. They have their own copyright now. |
| 19:15 | <fjb> | Every thing that was there before the svn got lost hast to be rewritten. |
| 19:15 | <ln-> | it's still derivative work. |
| 19:16 | <ln-> | it doesn't change anything. |
| 19:21 | <ln-> | proof: every attempt to create an open-source TTD-style (not clone) strategy game has failed. qed. |
| 19:21 | <fjb> | Here is the FreeBSd copyright: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html |
| 19:21 | <fjb> | Why has it failed? I guess most parts are no new invention of Chris Sawyer. |
| 19:21 | <fjb> | BSD ist like UNIX. It startet from UNIX source. It is not counted as derived work in any way. |
| 19:21 | <fjb> | Isometry engines were there before TT. |
| 19:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: there are lots of attempts to be found in the forum |
| 19:21 | <fjb> | And look at empire, it was open source long before TT existet. |
| 19:21 | <ln-> | failed probably because although there's nothing fundamentally new or complex in TTD, it is still hard work to build such a game, and so far no one has succeeded in the open source world. |
| 19:22 | <fjb> | Sure it is hard work. I guess OpenTTDs new pathfinder was also a lot of work. And many other things there were rewritten for OpenTTD. |
| 19:22 | <ln-> | fjb: it's a little like: you've seen a word processor such as Word or OpenOffice. no rocket science in them. still, would you be capable of writing one from scratch a) on your free time, b) even if you were paid? |
| 19:23 | <fjb> | Much work for a single person. But there is more than one person working at OpenTTD. And look at BSD or Linux. That are whole operating systems. Most done in free time. |
| 19:24 | <ln-> | errr.. no. |
| 19:24 | <ln-> | e.g. Red Hat has a lot of paid employees working fulltime on Linux. |
| 19:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: stuff [YAPF] gets so much easier if you already have a framework [OTTD] to test it in |
| 19:24 | <fjb> | And word is far more work than OpenTTD. Or look at Scribus, a whole dtp system. |
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| 19:24 | <ln-> | fjb: ok, since it is that easy, why have all open source train game attempts failed? |
| 19:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and that framework is and will always and forever be a derived work |
| 19:25 | <fjb> | They have lot of people now. But look at the BSD people. Most parts were done in free time. |
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| 19:26 | <fjb> | I don't think that the framework is derived work when every line of the code is new. |
| 19:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i would imagine that BSD stuff is a lot of students work |
| 19:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not so much free time work |
| 19:27 | <fjb> | BSD ist far bigger than OpenTTD. Early Linus was done in free time. |
| 19:27 | <Brianetta> | [01:19] <fjb> BSD ist like UNIX. It startet from UNIX source. It is not counted as derived work in any way. |
| 19:27 | <Brianetta> | BSD is UNIX |
| 19:27 | <fjb> | UNIX was copyrigted by AT&T at that time. |
| 19:27 | <Brianetta> | no |
| 19:27 | <Brianetta> | BSD is UNIX |
| 19:28 | <Brianetta> | as in, completely |
| 19:28 | <Brianetta> | AT&T has SysV, which was the other UNIX |
| 19:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: it does not suffice to just replace lines of code |
| 19:28 | <fjb> | Berkley got the right to work on that code, but AT&T withdrew that licence. |
| 19:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you also have to prove that you did not let you "inspire" by the old code |
| 19:29 | <Brianetta> | fjb: What are you on about? UNIX is a trademark, owned by The Open Group |
| 19:29 | <Brianetta> | BSD is a UNIX |
| 19:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | OTTD is tainted, and you will never remove that taint unless you start completely from scratch |
| 19:29 | <Brianetta> | Not a UNIX-like, not a clone |
| 19:29 | <fjb> | You don't have to prove that you don't know how the old code works. You just have to prove that your code is not identical to the old code. |
| 19:30 | <ln-> | fjb: so copyright can be removed just by doing a few search-and-replaces for some variable and function names. how simple. |
| 19:30 | <Brianetta> | It isn't so simple. |
| 19:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and add a few +0 or *1 everywhere |
| 19:30 | <fjb> | Not completel from scratch. The new pathfinder and other new things could stay in place. We have the logs that prove it is new. |
| 19:31 | <Brianetta> | It would have to be a clean-room implementation in order to be untainted. There is no reverse engineering defence there. |
| 19:31 | <fjb> | But starting over would not be that kind of a bad idea. We could get rid of C and C++ then. :-) |
| 19:32 | <Brianetta> | If I were starting over, I'd be tempted to begin with C++ |
| 19:32 | <ln-> | and move to ObjC |
| 19:32 | <Brianetta> | and have a full OO design |
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| 19:32 | <Brianetta> | In fact, I'd start with a design |
| 19:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | UML |
| 19:32 | <fjb> | Full OO would be great, but also not ObjectivC. Something readeble please. |
| 19:33 | <Brianetta> | A design document, stating the objectives of the project. |
| 19:33 | <ln-> | i'd suggest the improved version of Brainfuck that supports threads. |
| 19:33 | <Brianetta> | That Which Does Not Exist. |
| 19:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Brainfuck# ;) |
| 19:34 | <ln-> | it may not have SDL bindings available |
| 19:34 | <fjb> | Design is always good. Many limitations could be removed that way. The restricted number of slots for the vehicles could be removed. Just put a NewGRF compatibility layer on top of the new design. |
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| 19:36 | <Brianetta> | One could polymorph vehicle classes |
| 19:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: part of the problem is that NewGRF was designed with those restrictions in mind |
| 19:36 | <Brianetta> | Eddi: It might be, but it's extremely versatile. |
| 19:37 | <@Belugas> | [20:35] <fjb> Full OO would be great <--- why would be so great about it? |
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| 19:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, there are more design constraints, like being able to load old [release] savegames |
| 19:38 | <fjb> | You could map the slots internally to linked lists an translate the vehicle ids. |
| 19:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and use the old graphics files |
| 19:39 | <fjb> | Why do you need to load saved games. It's just a game and no importand documents. |
| 19:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: "linked lists" do not have anything to do in such a level of development plan |
| 19:39 | <fjb> | Just play a game with OpenTTD. But start a new game with a rewritten OpenTTD. |
| 19:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: because you want people to migrate to the new platform |
| 19:40 | <fjb> | How long do people play a game? Month? Years? |
| 19:40 | <ln-> | i agree that being able to load old games is not important. |
| 19:40 | <fjb> | Just make sure you can use the cool NewGRFs. That lavel of compatibility is nedded, not a saved game. |
| 19:41 | <ln-> | and i also agree with eddi that "linked list" does not belong to a high-level architecture description. |
| 19:41 | <fjb> | You can alway play your old saved game with the current OpenTTD. |
| 19:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ln-: it has been in the previous development, i see no reason to drop that policy, just because you are starting over with the codebase |
| 19:41 | <ln-> | Eddi|zuHause: new people, new policy. |
| 19:42 | <fjb> | It was just an example how you could have a new design under the hood an stay compatible with the old interface with slots. |
| 19:42 | <@Belugas> | [20:43] <ln-> i agree that being able to load old games is not important. <--- it is very important, sorry to be against your opinion |
| 19:43 | <fjb> | Ofcourse it is important when you make updates tp OpenTTD. But not if you start new. Is Locomotion able to read saved games of TT? |
| 19:43 | <ln-> | fjb: aren't the "cool NewGRFs" limited to 256 colors and the sizes used in TTD? |
| 19:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fjb: is Locomotion as successful as OpenTTD? |
| 19:44 | <fjb> | They are limited. But if the new games uses more colors, than sprites with 256 colos can still beused. It would be a problem the other way round. |
| 19:44 | <@Belugas> | fjb, granted |
| 19:44 | <+glx> | ln-: they "can" use 32bpp colors |
| 19:45 | <ln-> | semi-offtopic: has there been any USEFUL updates to Locomotion since it was released? |
| 19:45 | <fjb> | I don't know how successfull Locomotion is. It think it look to much like candy. |
| 19:45 | <ln-> | there was one update that fixed something as severe as "Insert CD" showing in english in the german version. |
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| 19:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you need a versioning system anyway, so it is not a huge work to allow a plug for old versions of the savegame structure |
| 19:49 | <ln-> | Eddi|zuHause: preferably a rewrite from scratch should be made by people who have not been at least main developers of OpenTTD. |
| 19:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you don't have an infinite source of developer candidates... |
| 19:49 | <ln-> | it could be outsourced to india. |
| 19:50 | <fjb> | :-) |
| 19:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that would require money |
| 19:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and money vs. open source does not behave too well |
| 19:55 | <fjb> | Could the authors of TTRS be convinced to do some graphics for a new game? |
| 19:56 | <ln-> | what's TTRS? |
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| 19:57 | <fjb> | Total town replacement set. A set that replaces all the houses in TTD with really nice new ones. |
| 19:58 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: belugas * r11197 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf.cpp town_cmd.cpp): |
| 19:58 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: -Fix: It is not useful to reset the override of an entity every time a new grf file is been submitted. |
| 19:58 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: Since newhouses showed the way to newindustries(meaning I copied/adapted a lot of code and processes from it), the behaviour was there for newhouses too. |
| 19:59 | <fjb> | I think about a rotatable map. But that would need houses with four sides, not just two. |
| 20:00 | <@Belugas> | fjb, i think not. |
| 20:00 | <@Belugas> | the point is that Zimmlock is aiming at a different goal |
| 20:00 | <fjb> | What is his goal? |
| 20:01 | <@Belugas> | industries, iirc |
| 20:01 | <@Belugas> | good night |
| 20:01 | <ln-> | gezien de afwezigheid van restanten schijnen ze gecamoufleerd te zijn |
| 20:02 | <fjb> | Industries would be better with four sides, too. :-) |
| 20:02 | <fjb> | Belugas: good night |
| 20:08 | |-| | goddamnit changed nick to DeGhost |
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| 20:16 | <Phazorx> | err... what's 42's keyword for translating again? |
| 20:23 | <ln-> | http://www.gvh.de/typo3temp/pics/604025c0e4.jpg |
| 20:23 | <AntB> | ok... |
| 20:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | haha :p |
| 20:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Phazorx: i'm 99% sure it's just another random star trek phrase |
| 20:24 | <Phazorx> | hmm? |
| 20:24 | <fjb> | :-) |
| 20:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ln-'s phrase |
| 20:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it ends with "appear to be cloaked" |
| 20:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and says something about "lack of residue" or something |
| 20:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm just not sure what "gezien" is supposed to mean |
| 20:27 | <ln-> | gezien: considering [kən'sɪd(ə)rɪŋ] preposition |
| 20:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, i just can't come up with a matching german word... |
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| 20:28 | <ln-> | "angesichts" |
| 20:29 | <ln-> | says this multi-language dictionary |
| 20:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well... ok... but that one is neither close to the dutch word, nor very commonly used |
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| 20:31 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i would not try to directly translate the word, but instead rephrase the sentence slightly |
| 20:33 | <Phazorx> | !translate de_en "angesichts" |
| 20:33 | <Phazorx> | !translate de_en angesichts |
| 20:33 | <Phazorx> | is not translate? |
| 20:34 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | more like "Aufgrund der Tatsache, daß ..." |
| 20:36 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | or simply "Da es keine Rückstände gibt, ..." |
| 20:36 | <ln-> | actually the latter one doesn't suit for commander Data. |
| 20:37 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | well, that is quite some important context information for a proper translation :p |
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| 20:39 | <ln-> | indeed |
| 20:40 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | do you have an episode number, so i can try to find the actual translation? |
| 20:40 | <Phazorx> | of that is too geeky |
| 20:41 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | "Aus Rechtsgründen hat Google 1 Ergebnis(se) von dieser Seite entfernt." |
| 20:42 | <ln-> | season 2, episode "134: a matter of honor" |
| 20:42 | <ln-> | i don't know wtf is the 134 supposed to mean, but that's what it says in the dvd menu. |
| 20:44 | <ln-> | Eddi|zuHause2: actually.. these dvds have german soundtrack so i could save your trouble and check it myself. |
| 20:44 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | that might be convenient ;) |
| 20:47 | <fjb> | Why do railway stations tend to get that long...? |
| 20:48 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | fjb: because trains are traditionally much longer than wide |
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| 20:51 | <fjb> | A better signal system would be of much help... |
| 20:53 | <ln-> | "die zensoren können keine tromatein entdecken, daher ist angenehmen, daß die Pagh getannt wurde und sich noch in diesen region befindet." (i wrote what i heard, not necessarily correct spelling) |
| 20:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | the spelling is way off |
| 20:53 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and what is "tromatein" supposed to mean? |
| 20:54 | <ln-> | ask cmdr Data. |
| 20:54 | <fjb> | Tomaten? :-) |
| 20:55 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | "Die Sensoren können keine [...] entdecken, daher ist anzunehmen, daß die Pagh [shipname?] getarnt wurde, und sich noch in dieser Region befindet." |
| 20:55 | <ln-> | here's what the subtitles say: "Die Sensoren orten keine Trümmer. Es ist anzunehmen, dass sich die Pagh tarnt und noch hier befindet." (but that's not 1:1 what's on the soundtrack) |
| 20:55 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | "Trümmerteile"? |
| 20:55 | <fjb> | Trümmer, das passt. |
| 20:57 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and that phrase sounds somehow familiar ;) |
| 20:57 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and like i said, that sentence is quite a bit rephrased |
| 20:58 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | and "daher" is the matching word, so i was not that far off with "da" |
| 20:59 | <ln-> | they've got quite good lip sync, which must have affected their choice of translation. |
| 20:59 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | yeah, it's definitely a major factor |
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| 21:06 | <ln-> | must be quite much work to create all the background sounds from scratch whenever someone says something. |
| 21:08 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i'm not sure, i would assume they get some kind of sound library from the original post-production |
| 21:09 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | they also need access to the background music etc. |
| 21:09 | <ln-> | quite possible. |
| 21:11 | <ln-> | 5.1 soundtracks could almost be translated by replacing the center channel. |
| 21:11 | <fjb> | Today the voices and the sound are on different track. Till the 70s every sound effect had to be redone. |
| 21:13 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | today they also send a video stream without any text overlay... in older shows you often see a black frame around embedded subtitles, where they had to erase the existing subtitles first |
| 21:15 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | don't need to be subtitles, also you often have location descriptions, or the episode title |
| 21:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | what i noticed recently, that in american series, they rarely show the episode titles |
| 21:16 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | but they always add them in the german translation |
| 21:16 | <ln-> | some years ago Star Wars Episode 1 surprised people over here, the scrolling text at the begin was localized into Finnish, not subtitled. |
| 21:17 | <ln-> | in Ep2 it was in English, and Ep3 again in Finnish, how logical. |
| 21:17 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | that was always in german, as far as i remember |
| 21:18 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i mean, also in episodes 4-6 [new count] |
| 21:18 | <ln-> | on DVD that was implemented using angles. |
| 21:18 | <ln-> | (the angle feature used on a non-porn disc!) |
| 21:19 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | haha :p |
| 21:19 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i don't have any dvds |
| 21:20 | <fjb> | I didn't know that anybody used it... |
| 21:21 | <ln-> | i think angles were somehow utilized in the extras as well. |
| 21:23 | <ln-> | another interesting thing with the Ep1 DVD was its price policy. |
| 21:23 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | well, it's difficult to use such a feature for a film originally intended to be shown linearily in a cinema |
| 21:23 | <ln-> | when it was new, the DVD cost something close to 40€. |
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| 21:24 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | are they insane? |
| 21:24 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i can rent an entire cinema for that price |
| 21:24 | <ln-> | however, if you ordered it from Australia, you got it delivered to your mailbox for about 22€. |
| 21:25 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | i should go to bed |
| 21:25 | <ln-> | and that Australian version *was* R2,R4, and it *did* have subtitles in scandinavian languages. |
| 21:27 | <ln-> | same content for half the price if you order it from the other side of the globe. does that compute? |
| 21:30 | <fjb> | Its all about transportation... :-) |
| 21:32 | <fjb> | Shit, I have been cought bribing. :-( |
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| 21:46 | <fjb> | Good night. |
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| --- | Log | closed Wed Oct 03 00:00:47 2007 |
