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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-02

---Logopened Tue Oct 02 00:00:06 2007
00:01<Ailure>been ages since I last touched monorail
00:02<Ailure>mostly becuse the trainsets I use tend to lack monorail trains
00:03<Hendikins>I tend to go electric -> maglev
00:04<Ailure>I don't replace my electrical railroads, just rather build maglev aside my railways
00:05<Ailure>since maglev is unsuitable for bulk cargo :P
00:08<nickname>unsuitable?
00:15<Ailure>yeah
00:15<Ailure>that's why most train sets who have maglev technology only carries passengers, and maybe containers too
00:16<nickname>i dont get it
00:16<nickname>why
00:17<Ailure>Can the superspeed maglev system used to transport goods?
00:17<Ailure>The superspeed maglev system is suited to transport valuable express goods that can be packed into containers. Special vehicles are available for freight traffic. The freight sections can be combined to form goods-only trains and mixed trains carrying both passengers and freight. Each freight section has a capacity of 17 t. The operating speeds of freight vehicles and passenger vehicles are the same.
00:17<Ailure>The maglev system is not designed to transport heavy and bulk goods because it isn't reasonable to transport coal, ore, steel or oil at 500 km/h.
00:17<Ailure>from the transrapid FAQ
00:18<Ailure>it might be diffrent for other maglev's, but I doubt it
00:18<nickname>oh
00:18<nickname>well i dont really care about realism
00:18<Ailure>well it's a gameplay issue for me too :)
00:19<Ailure>I like variation
00:19<Ailure>it's neat to mix diffrent types of transport :P
00:20<Ailure>I find myself making new passenger lines with maglev most of the time, and leave the old railroad network for industrial bulk goods
00:20<nickname>mmm
00:20<nickname>you know
00:21<nickname>i dont understand the point of transfer
00:21<nickname>i have ti going on my game, but the train that delivers the goods to the final destinaion, just looses me lots of money ever yyear
00:21<Ailure>That's due how transfer works actually
00:22<Ailure>there's ways of avoiding it too
00:22<nickname>how?
00:22<Ailure>such as avoiding going from a fast to slow transport
00:22<Ailure>such as aircraft -> ship
00:22<nickname>i'm doing all trains
00:22<nickname>but its a very large distance
00:23<nickname>like halfway across the map
00:23<nickname>and its like a 512x512 map
00:23<Ailure>hmm
00:23<Ailure>then I dunno
00:23<Ailure>unless the other train waits for a really long time
00:24<Ailure>the money that a train gains when transferring cargo is just merely virtual
00:24<Ailure>the real money comes when the last vhicle unloads the cargo
00:24<Ailure>and if it's less profit than the virtual money earlier, it reports a loss
00:24<nickname>the last train looses alot of money when it picks up the cargo
00:24<Ailure>then I dunno
00:24<Ailure>I'm not sure how you set it up
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00:57<boekabart>gooood morning
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01:26|-|gfldex_ changed nick to gfldex
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02:05<mcbane>good morning
02:06|-|Alltaken [~chatzilla@121-72-235-8.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #openttd
02:06<nickname>crazy europeaners
02:07<mcbane>depends on what you define as crazy =D
02:08<nickname>lol
02:08<nickname>saying good morning at midnight
02:12<Alltaken>it should be good evening
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02:12<mcbane>ah, ya west coast, aye?
02:13<dihedral|work>morning
02:13<nickname>arizona
02:13<nickname>i hate the west coast
02:13<Rubidium>crazy Americans.. saying midnight when it's clearly morning!
02:13[~]mcbane grins.
02:13<nickname>lol
02:17<boekabart>Rubidium: in your part of the country it's clear this morning? ;)
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02:18<boekabart>Is this the only time of day when both 'oceanians', us-ians and eu-ans are bored enough to chat here?
02:20<Alltaken>na i'm on the east coast ;-)
02:20<boekabart>of...
02:20<boekabart>nz? aus? one of those right?
02:20<Alltaken>of the "south island" (creative bunch
02:20<Rubidium>boekabart: I can see the RTV Oost antenna from here
02:20<boekabart>Rubidium: it would be really clear if I could :)
02:21<Alltaken>boekabart: yeah NZ
02:21<boekabart>Alltaken: ah, then IRC
02:22<boekabart>Rubidium: how do I ask DorpsGek what the hex value for -8 is?
02:22<boekabart>(0xF7 or F8, one of those i guess but it's too early to think)
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02:25<Rubidium>boekabart: -1 = 0xFF (or 0xFFFF (or 0xFFFFFFFF (or ...)))
02:25<boekabart>i know that
02:25<boekabart>thanks for giving me so much credit :)
02:25<Rubidium>so @calc 256 - 8 and then paste that into @base 10 16
02:26<boekabart>DorpsGek: @calc 256-8
02:26<boekabart>@base 10 16 248
02:26<@DorpsGek>boekabart: F8
02:26<boekabart>merci beaucoup
02:27<Rubidium>boekabart: the RTV Oost antenna is "only" 350 meters away though (well, there's a plant in between, but that's all)
02:28<boekabart>well if you can't see the sun or it's direct light, it's not clear :)
02:28<boekabart>assert(sun.up);
02:30<Rubidium>well, the flashing red lights would be...
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02:45<mcbane>hmm
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03:28<mcbane>stuff i dont understand. i switch on newAI and in multiplayer AI creating companies but when i start without new AI no company is getting started.
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03:31<boekabart>mcbane: i would consider that good news :)
03:31|-|Frostregen_ changed nick to Frostregen
03:31<mcbane>wel the newai switch shouldnt cause that i think
03:32<mcbane>newai means that the ai is partially implemented from AI brach or am i wrong
03:32<boekabart>no
03:32<Rubidium>no, that was another attempt
03:32<Rubidium>it's just that "newai" doesn't cheat, whereas "oldai" does like hell
03:33<Rubidium>which makes "oldai" not suitable for network play, as other people might exploit the "oldai" cheats
03:33<mcbane>well with old ai (newai off) there is no company created in multiplayer.
03:33<mcbane>i have buy others off =)
03:33<Rubidium>as oldai cannot be used in multiplayer, due to it's vast need to cheat
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03:34<mcbane>ok, got it.
03:34<boekabart>Rubidium: Any idea how it can happen that in traincontroller, GetDirectionToNextVehicle is called with the location of the 'previous' vehicle == the new location of the 'current' (following) one??
03:43<Rubidium>enters/leaves the depot?
03:44<boekabart>no, that's handled
03:44<boekabart>hm
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06:18<vicky>hello
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06:21<Amixwoktest>hey
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06:46<Enigma_Nova>Hi guys.
06:47<Enigma_Nova>Must all be afk.
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06:50<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, like you can determine that within 30 seconds...
06:50<mcbane>heh
06:51<Eddi|zuHause2>... in a channel where the average conversation has a reply every 2 hours
06:52<mcbane>slightly delayed answers.
06:53<Brianetta>determine what?
06:55<Brianetta>irc.lug.org.uk #linux has stop-motion conversation
06:55<hylje>:o
06:55<Brianetta>Looks perfectly normal unsil you examine the timestamps
06:56<hylje>everybody apparently filters out joins quits nicks parts and deliberately omits tiemstamps
06:56<Brianetta>everybody doesn't include me
06:57<hylje>yeah, you're like that
06:58<Eddi|zuHause2>Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit
06:59<Brianetta>Loser.
06:59<Brianetta>Doesn't deserve the enlightenment that is our conversation.
06:59<hylje>ive seen people who caught up in middle of a discussion
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07:00<hylje>and left because they didnt get immedetiate answer
07:00<Brianetta>You should see the Linux channels
07:00<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that's about what i thought, too, but i can't formulate my thoughts into words
07:00<hylje>i'm lurking some ubuntu channels
07:00<hylje>and a l33t h4x0r distro channel
07:00<Brianetta>People barge in, demand an immediate solution to their esoteric, rare and yet extremely important problem
07:00<Brianetta>l33t h4x0r? Can only be Gentoo.
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07:01<Eddi|zuHause2>they can't even spell h4xx0r correctly...
07:01<hylje>google spells it h4x0r
07:01<Brianetta>Eddi: Correctly, it's h4><0r
07:01<hylje>so it must be right
07:01<Ailure>hx
07:02<hylje>for the record, it's not gentoo. gentoo's too popular for l33t h4x0rs
07:02<Brianetta>Ailure: Only on SMS
07:02<Ailure>y
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07:02<Brianetta>Gentoo is for ricers.
07:02<Ailure>lol, sorry couldn't resist
07:02<SpComb>I was about to correct haxxors -> ricers
07:02<SpComb>:(
07:03<Eddi|zuHause2>you're right, h4><0r wins
07:03<SpComb>but whenever somebody mentions having some issues with gentoo updates breaking their system, one needs to say "(I wouldn't use gentoo unless I secretly enjoyed this)"
07:05<Ailure>[13:58] <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit
07:05<Ailure>Haha that's way too common with IRC channels
07:06<Ailure>it's even more funny when someone replies mere seconds after he quitted
07:06<Ailure>People are too impatient. :P
07:08<Eddi|zuHause2>sorry for my ignorance, but what is a ricer?
07:08<Brianetta>Somebody who takes an Opal Nova and puts fins, tails and stripes on it to make it look like it goes faster.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, those people typically drive an Opel Manta here ;)
07:09<Ailure>People who spend more time tweaking, than actually using the damn thing?
07:09<Eddi|zuHause2>and are at war with people who drive a Golf instead
07:10<Brianetta>Ailure: funroll-loops.org has expired, unfortunately, but it was a superb satire
07:11<Brianetta>http://web.archive.org/web/20061004200708/http://www.funroll-loops.org/
07:11<Brianetta>There you go
07:11<Brianetta>The Wayback machine saves the day
07:14<Ailure>haha oh god
07:14<Ailure>some of the quotes
07:14<Brianetta>yes
07:14<Ailure>"Why *SHOULDN'T* you put a production server on gentoo? I mean, THOSE things should perform REALLY well, and gentoo is just the thing that does that..."
07:15<Brianetta>My server used to be Gentoo
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07:15<Brianetta>but Gentoo slowly destroyed itself
07:15<Ailure>I use Ubuntu on my laptop
07:15<Brianetta>so I replaced it with Trustix
07:15<Ailure>Bet Gentoo users consider it a n00b distro
07:15<Brianetta>Gentoo's "use" flags are touted as a huge advantage
07:16<Brianetta>Like, if you have no printer, you can compile everything without support for printing
07:16<Brianetta>No CUPS, no drivers, nothing
07:16<Phazorx>heh what do they ahve against gentoo?
07:16<Brianetta>and then
07:16<Brianetta>when you buy a printer
07:16<Brianetta>you have to add printing to your "use" and then...
07:16<Ailure>I really don't see how huge speed improvment that would have
07:16<Brianetta>rebuild the entire bloody OS!
07:16<Phazorx>Brianetta: 2 things
07:17<Brianetta>Phazorx: It was an example
07:17<Phazorx>think ahead being first... and plan how you gonna use your hardware
07:17<Brianetta>You could switch "gnome support" for "printing"
07:17<Phazorx>second, ity will recompile your damn os with 2 commands
07:17<Brianetta>You might believe you're a KDE man, through and through
07:17<Phazorx>and will work after reboot
07:17<Phazorx>which is a beauty to see
07:17<Brianetta>with 2 commands and a whole bunch of time
07:17<Ailure>"I am a long time Gentoo user, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I believe that as hardware gets faster, it makes sense to migrate to a largely source-based Linux system. Binary packages encourage inconsistency and incompatibility, whearas source encourages unified development frameworks and integration."
07:17<Ailure>hahha what
07:18<Phazorx>who cares, point being you do have that option
07:18<Brianetta>You're not going to convince me that Gentoo is good. I used it as a primary OS on my four machines for four years.
07:18<Phazorx>it runs about on 30 servers at my prious place ar wrk :)
07:18<Brianetta>The very fact that the documentation didn't mention that you sould always emerge upgrades with --deep, for example, cost me an installation
07:18<Brianetta>once glibc was too old to upgrade itself
07:19<Brianetta>and the compiler failed
07:19<Phazorx>that is sad, indeed
07:19<valhallasw>if you should do that, why isn't it the default? :|
07:19<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: let me guess, it also runs your keyboard :p
07:19<Brianetta>valhallasw: NFI.
07:19<Brianetta>That was why my server needed a reinstall
07:19<Brianetta>It was 350 miles away, and couldn't be updated.
07:19<Brianetta>Once I switched ISPs, I took the opportunity to reinstall the OS.
07:20<valhallasw>-_-
07:20<Ailure>heh
07:20<Ailure>"I essentially started using Gentoo because my ....ing KDE clock would never show the right time in Red Hat."
07:20<Ailure>I wonder how he even got Gentoo working
07:20<Phazorx>upgrade is a relegion imo
07:20<valhallasw>kde :'(
07:20<Brianetta>I'd already given up on Gentoo at home, because it took so long to upgrade OpenOffice.org that the *next* one was available by the time it had finished.
07:20<valhallasw>xfce4 O+
07:20<Phazorx>some people think it is a way to save and imptrove things.. i mostly dont believe in it :)
07:20<Ailure>hah
07:21<Ailure>unlike why I love the package manager in Linux
07:21<Ailure>almost anything I installed through the package manager
07:21<Ailure>is easily upgradable
07:21<Ailure>in a painless way
07:21<Brianetta>Also, I took the time to measure performance on Gentoo and on subsequent Fedora installations
07:21<Brianetta>About parity, was the result.
07:21<Ailure>heh Fedora
07:21<Ailure>First distrobution I used
07:22<valhallasw>I hear good stories about ubuntu
07:22<Brianetta>My first was Slackware Professional Linux 2.0
07:22<Ailure>I used some early version of it
07:22<Brianetta>I currently recommend Ubuntu to the LUG embers
07:22<Ailure>where some stuff was broken
07:22<Ailure>I tried slackware next
07:22<Ailure>LUG?
07:22<Brianetta>embers? hot coals? I menat members
07:22<valhallasw>linux user group
07:22<Ailure>ah
07:22<valhallasw>or sth
07:22<Ailure>Well
07:22<Brianetta>Ailure: I run http://www.tyneside.lug.org.uk/
07:22<Brianetta>In fact, I founded it
07:22<Brianetta>we're one of the oldest
07:23<Ailure>intresting
07:23<Ailure>I really enjoy Ubuntu
07:23<valhallasw>bbl
07:23<Ailure>and that's someone who tried severeal linux distros and even a BSD
07:23<Ailure>*from someone
07:23<Brianetta>People ask me when I switched from Windows
07:23<Brianetta>I laugh at them
07:23<Brianetta>I actually switched from DOS
07:23<Phazorx>Brianetta: not sure about fedora, but i moved from RHEL to gentoo
07:23<Phazorx>compiling own kernel and optimizing DB binaries gave 10-15%
07:24<Brianetta>Phazorx: My real beef with Gentoo is the amount of active maintenance it requires.
07:24<Phazorx>Brianetta: well i'm not sure if any is required
07:24<Brianetta>emerging a new package often requires updating other things, and you need to be careful every damned time
07:24<Phazorx>unless you constaly mod/develop whatever the box is doing
07:24<Brianetta>"ooh, I think I'll try that network analyser"
07:25<Phazorx>Brianetta: on a working server
07:25<Brianetta>Phazorx: This was my desktop
07:25<Phazorx>you are going to try to do soemthing that is capable of messing u your whole setup?
07:25<Brianetta>I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach
07:25<Phazorx>well so that is your test box
07:25<Phazorx>it meants to be rebooted
07:25<Brianetta>My test box?
07:25<Brianetta>No
07:25<Brianetta>That's the machine I work on
07:26<Brianetta>Installing packages on other distributions doesn't affect stability
07:26<Phazorx>with servers there was one dedicated test/spare, which was doing compiling/updating and maintained local portage mirror
07:26<Ailure>[14:24] <Brianetta> I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach
07:26<Ailure>Obviously
07:26<Ailure>I mean heh
07:26<Ailure>I help a friend of mine to adminstrate a Linux server in a server farm
07:26<Phazorx>so other servers with identical setup just sync from it if really neded
07:26<Phazorx>uptime was tree nines
07:26<Ailure>the few times it have gone down for random reasons it's been painful to get it up again
07:27<Ailure>usually hardware related failures
07:27<Ailure>so I can only imagine what would happen if you just do a improper update that breaks SSH or even the system as whole
07:28<Phazorx>Ailure: yet agaion i'm against updationg unless you have really good reason
07:28<Phazorx>and you dont just *try* updating soemthing that is unreachalble and meant to be up all time
07:28<Ailure>we don't upgrade often on that server
07:28<Brianetta>Really good reasons include security updates
07:28<Ailure>I upgrade whenever I can on my laptop though
07:29<Brianetta>You can't leave old packages on internet servers
07:29<Ailure>and yeah, that's true
07:29<Phazorx>Brianetta: i tend to separate pieces that ensure security and do work
07:29<Brianetta>Separate how? What if it's an ssh vulnerability?
07:29<Ailure>security problems tend to get widely known fast
07:29<Brianetta>and lo, the update requires 14 other updates
07:29<Phazorx>well i dont think ANY of servers that might be vulerable should be SSH availabled from the net
07:30<Phazorx>now of servers i managed were
07:30<Phazorx>there was dedeicated LAN for console acces with VPN access to it
07:30<Brianetta>I can't afford that amount of datacentre space
07:30<Brianetta>1u is all I rent
07:30<Brianetta>and I have zero physical access
07:31<Phazorx>well you should not be conserned much about security having not that much of scale
07:31<Brianetta>unless I buy time in the build room
07:31<Brianetta>I shouldn't be concerned with security?
07:31<Brianetta>It's my first, and often only, concern
07:31<Brianetta>If my box is compromised, I am totally screwed
07:32<Phazorx>well security updates based on internet based bulettin is not a guarantee, since it is reactive rather than proactive
07:32<Brianetta>If I were to be proactive, I lose all portage benefits.
07:33<Brianetta>As it happens, Trustix excels in every respect over Gewntoo, on my server.
07:33<Phazorx>if i care about security i emply preventive methods to level of not having a need to deploy patches/updates unless there is a major software change
07:34<Brianetta>You can't learn about security holes first, unless you're some kind of psychic
07:34<Phazorx>like hoin from apache/modphp/mysql4 to lighttpd/fastcgi/mysql5
07:34<Brianetta>They have their own holes
07:34<Phazorx>Brianetta: exactly so you stop having "things" that might have/develop security holes
07:34<Brianetta>Like saying, because I switched to dovecot, I don't need to worry about POP3 vulnerabilities
07:34<Brianetta>Still, despite its total emphasis on security, it's had several security fixes this year.
07:35<Phazorx>Brianetta: if you switch to exchange - you dont tho
07:35<Phazorx>because pop is not used anymore
07:35<Phazorx>so you dont need ssh upades if there is no way to get to ssh
07:35<Phazorx>you donty need to worry about apache updates if you dont use apache
07:35<Brianetta>I'm not going to switch to a proprietary system. They have security hoes that don't even get looked at.
07:35<Phazorx>you dont need phpnuke/wordpost fizxes if you dont have them
07:36<Brianetta>Phazorx: You need fixes for the things you have instead
07:36<Phazorx>well i'm not suggesting that, but that is the general apraoch
07:36<Brianetta>Crumbs, I run my own web software
07:36<Brianetta>I write my own security fixes
07:36<Phazorx>fixing whole is not guaranteeing anything, not having them in first places gives confidence
07:36<Brianetta>Avoiding popular software isn't the issue
07:36<Brianetta>I *need* a web server
07:36<Brianetta>I *need* ssh
07:37<Brianetta>In fact, I use ssh to secure a bunch of other protocols.
07:37<Phazorx>you webserver can be limited in functionality to what you need
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07:37<Brianetta>It can?
07:37<Phazorx>ssh can be limited to only set of ips, or betetr yet use different network interfaface with VPN
07:37<Brianetta>I need to connect from anywhere
07:37<Brianetta>including dynamic IPs
07:38<Phazorx>Brianetta: nope, you dont, you can proxy
07:38<Brianetta>I am proxying at the moment
07:38<Brianetta>and there are some IP based restrictions
07:38<Phazorx>i used radmin to my work box, or ssh to it even from blackberry, and then get to server
07:38<Brianetta>but what makes my SSH secure isn't that
07:39<Brianetta>It's using keys only, and automatically blocking IPs that attempt to log in with a password.
07:39<Phazorx>well not having listner on port 22 on same IP you run webserver is much better
07:39<Brianetta>In any case, the issue isn't whether SSH should or shouldn't be used
07:39<Brianetta>It's whether Gentoo can adequately provide secure updates
07:39<Brianetta>Bearing in mind that Trustix can, and it never, ever breaks
07:40<Phazorx>as efficient as any other compiled OS i guess
07:40<Phazorx>i have nothing againstr trustix and given your situation it is a wise choice
07:40<Phazorx>how right tool for right job is a good philosophy
07:41<Phazorx>if you need a lot of people you use bus, if you need to get there fast you use sportscar
07:41<Phazorx>doesnt mean evier is bad as long as they are used within relm of their capabilities
07:42<Phazorx>point being - gentoo with it's "flawed" system of updates and "inability" to guess what user might need in future and eliminating these options of expandability has it's place
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09:14<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=34279 <- my new tool :)
09:15<Amixwoktest>nice
09:15<Amixwoktest>now support MorphOS ;)
09:16<Amixwoktest>Born_Acorn: what sort of os is RiscOS really?
09:16<Amixwoktest>ive allways wondered about Acorn
09:16<Amixwoktest>looked at it as a competitor to Amiga back in days
09:18<Rubidium>now write a delphi parser for GCC ;)
09:19<frosch123>try freepascal
09:19<frosch123>except pngdelphi, it should work
09:19<Amixwoktest>write in DSL language
09:19<Amixwoktest>and you suddendly support way more plattforms
09:19<Amixwoktest>;)
09:20<Rubidium>isn't dsl a little too low level to be usefull?
09:20<Amixwoktest>no
09:20<Amixwoktest>Pixel32 etc is SDL product
09:21<Rubidium>oh.. I had HDL in mind ;)
09:22<Amixwoktest>http://www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/?page_id=12
09:22<Amixwoktest>:)
09:23<Amixwoktest>Pixel is a RGB, CMYK and HDR image editing, photo retouching, graphics manipulating and animation program available for many operating systems formerly known as Pixel32. It is available for Windows, Linux, Linspire, MacOSX, BeOS, Zeta, QNX, MorphOS, FreeBSD, eComStation, OS/2, SkyOS and even old plain DOS, for both x86 and PowerPC architectures.
09:23<Rubidium>boring... who cares about pixels in the context of nfo?
09:24<Amixwoktest>¿
09:24<Rubidium>(yes, I know his post says grf, but it's rather the nfo-part of the GRF it handles than the pcx part)
09:25<Amixwoktest>ohh
09:25<Amixwoktest>ill stop now
09:25<Amixwoktest>because now i dont know what were talking about, lol
09:25<Amixwoktest>;p
09:25<frosch123>But it reads grfs. They are a lot easier to parse, than nfo.
09:41<Progman>frosch123: how looks a sample html file?
09:43<frosch123>decode one :)
09:43<Progman>no wine atm
09:43<Progman>you should provide an example in the forum post anyway
09:44<frosch123>Then tell me one, which I can publish without making the author angry.
09:44<Progman>ah, damn, of course...
09:44<@Belugas>whooo.... cool tool :)
09:44<@Belugas>just saw it
09:47<Rubidium>Ammler's nothing.grf (I think)
09:51<frosch123>Hmm, perhaps I can make some screenshots, which noone can associate to a grf...
09:51[~]dihedral|work greets Belugas
09:52[~]Belugas sendsd back greetings to dihedral|work
09:52[~]TrueBrain slaps dihedral|work
09:53[~]dihedral|work slaps TrueBrain back
09:53<dihedral|work>what was that for
09:53<TrueBrain>nothing
09:53<TrueBrain>just felt like it
09:53<dihedral|work>:-P
09:54<dihedral|work>thought i might have said something while you were gone that you just could have read in the logs
09:54<TrueBrain>who knowsw :p
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10:03<ln->wtf, someone having a race in F1 gp, positions changing without pitstops; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuxOv2kvjA4
10:04<ln->doesn't sound like the good old "schumacher is on the 1st position and has 3-minute gap to the second one"
10:05<hylje>UNPOSSIBLE
10:06<mcbane>unpossible?
10:07<dihedral|work>abso-f'n-lutely
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10:16<SmatZ>hello
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10:34<frosch123>another 123 :)
10:36<Sionide>beginning with f as well
10:36<TrueBrain>depending on how much either one of you two are going to chat, I guess that will be confusing, and will lead to kicks :p
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10:39<TrueBrain>bah, no kicking today :(
10:42<Ammler>TrueBrain: kicking is a good keyword, is it hard to extend the function banning for a whole subnet?
10:42[~]TrueBrain sets mode +b *!*@*.ch
10:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm afraid he means in the game :p
10:49<TrueBrain>bah
10:49<Ammler>our workaround is atm to ban the guy from IRC and web
10:50<Ammler>so, he can't get the password
10:50<+glx>like soup?
10:50<Ammler>yep
10:51<Ammler>but maybe there is a "builtin function" for C++ to compare with subnets?
10:51<TrueBrain>it means you need to get the rdns
10:51<TrueBrain>which currently isn't implemented at all I think
10:52<TrueBrain>so it takes a bit of work, but not undoable
10:52<Phazorx>TrueBrain: rdns?
10:52<Phazorx>Ammler means by ip + cidr
10:52<Ammler>I don't need dns for banning subnets
10:52<TrueBrain>you want to ban on IP base...
10:52<TrueBrain>doable, but less useful
10:52<Ammler>sometinng like 192.*
10:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean in the form of 192.168.0.*
10:53<TrueBrain>if you do it, you can better do it based on dns
10:53<Phazorx>no
10:53<TrueBrain>a bit more effort, but more useful
10:53<Phazorx>i mean 192.168.0.0/16
10:53<TrueBrain>anyway, feel free to make a patch ;)
10:53<Ammler>Phazorx: is there a difference?
10:53<Phazorx>Ammler: cidr more flexible
10:53<Eddi|zuHause2>in german we say "das selbe in grün"
10:53<Eddi|zuHause2>or "dasselbe", i'm never sure...
10:54<Ammler>ähm, TrueBrain, I ask you because you know C++ better (much) then me, so you might know if there is already a function...
10:54<Ammler>you don't have to do it
10:55<Phazorx>Ammler: 192.168.64.1/29 - bans only 8 ips
10:55<Phazorx>Ammler: 192.168.64.128/29 - bans othjer 8 ips
10:55<Ammler>Phazorx: it depense on the function, which you can use
10:56<TrueBrain>Ammler: in fact, because of a 'bug' you had this feature a while back
10:56<TrueBrain>'someone' fixed it :p
10:56<Phazorx>and isp buy ip ranges in these segments so bans for ips/locale makes much more sense with bitmask
10:56<TrueBrain>Phazorx: still, rdns-based makes much more sense ;)
10:56<Phazorx>TrueBrain: just as much sense, perhaps easier to manage tho
10:56<TrueBrain>(as ISPs have several ip-ranges ;))
10:57<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i dont mind digging ips and whoising isps for desired effect
10:57<Ammler>yeah, like the IRC
10:57<Eddi|zuHause2>+b *.t-dialin.net
10:57<Phazorx>i do mind lacking ability to do it
10:57<Ammler>just begin with IP-Masks
10:57<Phazorx>and yet again i dont want to ban whole isp in most cases
10:57<Phazorx>but i can find out with whois exact range dedicated to some area in case if that applies
10:58<Phazorx>which makes targeting much mroe presize
10:58<Phazorx>rdns will not help in this case
10:58<TrueBrain>rdns still is more useful :)
10:58<TrueBrain>as most ISPs are smart enough to put the area in the rdns
10:58<TrueBrain>but okay, I say: make a patch :)
10:59<Phazorx>well my point is cidr range is easier to do and will do the job
10:59<TrueBrain>and no Ammler, I simply don't have the time to do it
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11:02<Ammler>I repeat me, but I never asked you to do it, just asked you, if there is a function in C++ where can already compare such things
11:03<TrueBrain>oh, sorry, misread you
11:03<TrueBrain>happens :p
11:03<TrueBrain>for what Phazorx suggests, I wouldn't know a function, but I guess it isn't that hard
11:03<TrueBrain>convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting
11:04<@Belugas>always when coming back from hiliday :) takes a while to get back on work :D
11:04<TrueBrain>for what I suggest, you need regexp support to do it nicely
11:04<TrueBrain>not default C++ either
11:05<Ammler>hmm, maybe Phazorx will try a little bit with C?
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11:05<Phazorx>Ammler: as i suggested before - norroing some code for apache wil ldo the trick
11:05<Phazorx>and last time i was doing c was about 10 years ago
11:05<Ammler>yeah, good reason for a comming back
11:06<TrueBrain>lol, using Apache to find this function (or any other for that matter) will take much longer than a good www.google.com search :)
11:06<Phazorx>well at least to the level of acomplishing something worth having a name next to it :)
11:06<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i dont think i can word it good enough
11:06<Phazorx>but any other utility that can read cidr mask will do
11:06<Phazorx>it is as easy as parsing string from config differently and applying proper bitmask tho
11:07<TrueBrain>as I said, convert to int, and apply bitmask ;)
11:07<TrueBrain>(shifting)
11:07<Eddi|zuHause2><TrueBrain> convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting <- just & it with the subnet mask
11:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: you want shifting, to do comparing :)
11:07<TrueBrain>the /29 means >> 3, and compare the 2 values
11:07<Phazorx>TrueBrain: xor more like it
11:07<TrueBrain>euh..
11:08<TrueBrain>doh
11:08<TrueBrain>but okay
11:08<Eddi|zuHause2>no, why xor?
11:08<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: becasue cidr works that way
11:08<TrueBrain>no, what I said should work
11:08<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i meant you compare xored result to 0
11:09<Phazorx>the shifting is ecatly as you described
11:09<TrueBrain>yeah, I was confused by my own math
11:09<TrueBrain>but okay
11:10<TrueBrain>inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip): kick
11:10<TrueBrain>euh
11:10<TrueBrain>inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip) >> (32 - subnet): kick
11:10<Phazorx>hmm
11:10<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not matter much, if you xor, shift, and compare to 0, or if you shift twice, and check for equality
11:10<Ammler>and this patch should work also only on server side
11:10<Phazorx>xoring is still required
11:11<TrueBrain>Phazorx: why?
11:11<Eddi|zuHause2>A xor B == 0 is equivalent to A == B
11:11<Phazorx>TrueBrain: trying to word it properly hang on
11:12<Eddi|zuHause2>what the compiler or processor does with these expressions is a whole different story
11:12<Phazorx>i guess since you do it other way - it does not ened to be xored
11:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: and who cares, as long as it works :p
11:12<Phazorx>you are trunking uneffective bits and comparing the res
11:12<Phazorx>i was thinking of comparing base and xoring mask
11:12<TrueBrain>Phazorx: which is what a subnetmask does, when banning ;)
11:13<Phazorx>diff aproaches but same result
11:13<TrueBrain>problem about xoring mask, is that you have the value 29
11:13<TrueBrain>you need to make that into 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1000
11:13<Phazorx>or <<29 instead of >>3
11:14<Phazorx>your logic is fine tho
11:14<Phazorx>mine was just doing reverse of what you had in mind
11:14<TrueBrain>I just wonder how to make that bitmask from the number 29...
11:14<TrueBrain>in an efficient way
11:14<Eddi|zuHause2>-1 << 3?
11:14<TrueBrain>hmm, good point
11:15<Phazorx>-1 is less efficient than 0xffffff :)
11:15<TrueBrain>((uint32)-1) << 3
11:15<TrueBrain>but yeah :)
11:15<TrueBrain>Phazorx: (uint32)-1 == 0xFFFFFFFF
11:15<Phazorx>TrueBrain: 0xffffffff is a constant :)
11:15<TrueBrain>-1 too :)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: it's totally a compiler issue, there is nothing about efficiency...
11:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: worse: it is machine issue :)
11:15<TrueBrain>-1 == 0xFFFFFFFF
11:16<Phazorx>TrueBrain: there was something about ansi c misrepresenting -1 long time ago
11:16<TrueBrain>either in (int32) or (uint32)
11:16<Phazorx>perhaps it does not apply to cpp though
11:16<TrueBrain>Phazorx: ANSI C can't misrepresent anything in this matter
11:16<TrueBrain>it is how machines are build these days :)
11:16<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, it is the issue of the compiler to convert the representation (-1) to the same as (0xFFFFFFFF)
11:16<TrueBrain>we use two-forgotname
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause2>two-complement
11:16<TrueBrain>thank you
11:16<Phazorx>TrueBrain: -1 would become longint if used in context with casting type on it 1st i mean
11:17<Phazorx>without i meant
11:17<TrueBrain>therefor you need the cast, yes ;)
11:17<TrueBrain>but the asm should be the same
11:17<TrueBrain>would be fun to check it out :)
11:17<Eddi|zuHause2>your level of discussion is way too low for my taste :p
11:17<TrueBrain>low, as in low-level? :p
11:17<Phazorx>TrueBrain: well imagine a routine like if((unit) X == -1) { dostuff();}
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>TrueBrain: the ambiguity is deliberate :p
11:18<TrueBrain>Phazorx: that is a pretty faulty statement :) What does work: if (X == (uint)-1)
11:18<TrueBrain>-1 doesn't have a real value if you don't put it in a cast ;)
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: the compiler should warn about that
11:19<TrueBrain>(uint64)-1 != (uint32)-1
11:19<Phazorx>anwyay, this should not apply these days since it has been know for long while
11:19<TrueBrain>(but okay, (uint64)1 != (uint32)1 either :p
11:19<TrueBrain>hehe
11:19<TrueBrain>so that is a nice faulty statement :p
11:19<TrueBrain>(what I wrote :p)
11:20<Phazorx>well my point was e if((uint) X == 1) would have worked as desired
11:20<Phazorx>whereas e if((uint) X == -1) would not
11:20<Eddi|zuHause2>depends on what you desire
11:20<TrueBrain>indeed :)
11:20<Ammler>TrueBrain: depense on little or big endian
11:20<TrueBrain>but as Eddi|zuHause2 said, the compiler should warn :)
11:20<TrueBrain>Ammler: not really
11:20<TrueBrain>-1 = 0xFF
11:20<TrueBrain>in which ever amount of bytes
11:20<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: if x being the one in 1st case and -1 in second to procede with following statement
11:20<TrueBrain>so in that case, it doesn't matter ;)
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11:21<TrueBrain>Ammler: for -2 you are right ;)
11:21<Phazorx>if 0xff is -1 what would be 0xfe+1 ?
11:22<TrueBrain>Phazorx: signed? -1 ;)
11:22<Ammler>-2+1=-1
11:22<TrueBrain>as 0xFE is -2, if a signed byte
11:22<Phazorx>ahh well we got to signed already
11:22<Phazorx>i missed that step
11:22<TrueBrain>Phazorx: -1 is 0xFF in unsigned too, although that statement is kind of tricky to state :)
11:23<Phazorx>still thinking of uint and int being word ratehr than byte :)
11:23<TrueBrain>(as -1 is invalud in unsigned :p)
11:23<TrueBrain>oh bla, who cares :p
11:23<Ammler>so, who does make the patch for IP Masks now?
11:23<Phazorx>well we'd really appriciate ip/cidr capability in future
11:24<Ammler>!s/future/now/
11:24<Rubidium>Ammler: iptables
11:25<TrueBrain>haha @ Rubidium :)
11:25<Ammler>:)
11:25<Phazorx>Rubidium: it narrows down to like chaing of 5 lines in the code now, 3 of which being comments
11:25<Rubidium>Phazorx: I've heard that a lot
11:25<Rubidium>it's "just" one line of code
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11:26<Phazorx>iptables provides nice functionality but that feature already developed in game, just need a bit of widening
11:26<Rubidium>and finally the diff is 50 kB before they actually got it working
11:26<Eddi|zuHause2>"there are only 3 commands needed to install gentoo" :p
11:26<Phazorx>Rubidium: TrueBrain pretty much even stated that line
11:26<Phazorx>just ened to put it in right place
11:26<TrueBrain> if (sin.sin_addr.s_addr == inet_addr(_network_ban_list[i])) {
11:27<TrueBrain>that is the only line needs changing
11:27<TrueBrain>the tricky part is to allow the subnet mask
11:27<Sacro>rawr
11:27<Eddi|zuHause2>i think there is a little more needed to change the ban command
11:27<Rubidium>the "tricky" part is reading the subnet mask
11:27<Rubidium>the rest is simple
11:27<TrueBrain>Rubidium: that is what I said ;)
11:27<TrueBrain>strrchr ;)
11:27<Eddi|zuHause2>that is what i meant ;)
11:27<Phazorx>oh yeah... that isnt perl and RE i forgot :)
11:27<TrueBrain>check for /, and it should be easy :)
11:28<Ammler>we could begin with just one format
11:28<Rubidium>yup, not we do IP/32
11:28<Phazorx>Ammler: and end with just one as well :)
11:28<Rubidium>and we should add IP/0
11:28<Eddi|zuHause2>and then convert 192.168.0.* to 192.168.0.0/8
11:28<Ammler>hmm, thats fine in future
11:29<Phazorx>i dont think * thingy is really ended in case if you have cidr
11:29<TrueBrain>Phazorx: many many many many many many many many <..> people don't understand how cidr works
11:29<TrueBrain>ending up with bans on IP/0
11:34<Ammler>Phazorx: not everyone can calculate the bitshift or how is that called?
11:34<Phazorx>TrueBrain: many people dont know how to drive... yet they get a book, try and eventualy get a license
11:34<TrueBrain>Phazorx: this is different
11:34<TrueBrain>people do know how to do 192.168.0.*
11:34<Phazorx>Ammler: this is go to whoispage for isp and copy/paste
11:34<TrueBrain>like many people know how to drive a car, but a few try to drive motor
11:34<Phazorx>TrueBrain: in most cases * will not so what you want
11:34<Phazorx>and you end up banning too many or too few
11:34<TrueBrain>Phazorx: yup
11:34<TrueBrain>mask-banning in general has that effect
11:34<Phazorx>proper mask banning has less/does not
11:34<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: 192.168.0.1* then doesn't work...
11:34<TrueBrain>(if I screw up in a server, and get a /29 ban for example, my neighbour can't join either)
11:34<Ammler>I would begin with 24
11:34<TrueBrain>even a /30 puts my neighbour out of the server too
11:34<Phazorx>TrueBrain: that's really the price for that
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>Rubidium: no, if you use that syntax, you can only ban /0, /8, /16 etc.
11:34<Phazorx>i banned whole state because of one prick :)
11:34<TrueBrain>as said, mask-banning in genral has a big downside ;)
11:34<Phazorx>but having cidr mask it can be targeted more specificaly
11:34<TrueBrain>yup
11:34<Phazorx>and if people really like entering * in config - that cane be autoreplaced to /8 /16 or /24
11:34<Ammler>but in future :)
11:34<Phazorx>unless you want soemthing crazy like a.*.b.c
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i think that replacement is rather trivial
11:34<Rubidium>Phazorx: then people *expect* 192.168.0.1*1 to work too
11:34<Sacro>why not use subnet nasking
11:34<TrueBrain>Rubidium: whould they?
11:34<Sacro>192.168.0.1/255.255.255.0
11:34<Phazorx>Rubidium: these people should stop doing RE in C :)
11:34<Phazorx>Sacro: cidr is same
11:34<Phazorx>just properly noted
11:34<Rubidium>Sacro: technically that what you've written isn't correct
11:34<Ammler>Sacro: thats 192.168.0.0/24, I guess
11:34<Phazorx>and realy i'm talking about much lesser change for these who have the knowledge and can use it like tomorrow
11:34<Phazorx>and you want to offere more features while complaining it is more than 5 lines of code
11:37<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/temp.patch
11:38<TrueBrain>or something
11:38<TrueBrain>hmm
11:38<TrueBrain>not 100% correct
11:38<Phazorx>thanks TrueBrain
11:38<TrueBrain>reload
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11:39<TrueBrain>totally untested
11:39<TrueBrain>even not compiled
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11:40<Ammler>Phazorx: do you test it?
11:41<Phazorx>have no means atm
11:41<Phazorx>will test later when i get back home
11:41<Phazorx>but i hope by then it'll be in trunk already :)
11:42<TrueBrain>I won't do it :)
11:42<TrueBrain>I just wondered if it really took 5 lines :p
11:42<Phazorx>oh cmon
11:42<Phazorx>so close
11:42<TrueBrain>testing is a bitch :p
11:42<TrueBrain>no time :)
11:43<Ammler>yeah, np, do you see a problem, if we only patch the server?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>little boxes, on the hillside...
11:43<TrueBrain>Ammler: my patch won't work
11:44<Phazorx>Ammler: a modded working version of that - can be done server side only
11:45<Eddi|zuHause2>what happens if the server bans itself?
11:45<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: nothing
11:46<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: care to elablorate on HOW server can ban itself
11:46<Phazorx>like grew hands and type that command somewhere?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>/ban your.ip?
11:46<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: and where that line would come from?
11:47<TrueBrain>so, my patch given, knowing itoa should be atoi, who is going to finish my lovely patch and test it?
11:47<TrueBrain>one of you knows C, right? :)
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm busy...
11:48<Rubidium>lovely ain't it... everybody is busy enough to not care about subnet banning :)
11:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't run a server, nor do i play online, so it is definitely not my immediate problem :p
11:50<Ammler>:(
11:50<Ammler>is there a dev, who does also play OTTD?
11:50<Sacro>nope
11:50<Sacro>none of the devs play
11:51<Ammler>The game for them is developing OTTD
11:51<TrueBrain>I never did, why would I?
11:51<+glx>we play only to debug :)
11:51<TrueBrain>I never even started the game
11:51<TrueBrain>don't know how it looks like
11:51<TrueBrain>my work is always theoretical
11:51<TrueBrain>others do the testing
11:51<Ammler>oh, I know, you played...
11:52<TrueBrain>doh, busted
11:52<Rubidium>Ammler: when?
11:52<Ammler>beginning of coop
11:52<Rubidium>you must be confusing TrueBrain with TrueLight or so
11:52<Ammler>oh sry, yes
11:52<TrueBrain>yeah, that is someone else
11:52<TrueBrain>I think
11:55<Ammler>we are planning a coopetition game on #openttdcoop, maybe devs would like to be a group against us?
11:56<Ammler>oh, no, they have patched clients and will cheat all the time... :)
11:56<TrueBrain>nah, we just have a special login-code
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11193 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix: be more compliant with the specifications of callback #2F (and undocumented side effects in TTDP in corner cases).
12:01<Ammler>ok, whish you all a nice evening
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12:03<TrueBrain>have fun Ammler :)
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12:12<Wolf01>hello
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause2><TrueBrain> yeah, that is someone else <- nothing better than a tiny bit of schitzophreny :p
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause2>makes for a great deal of excuses :p
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12:23<dihedral>hello
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12:36<skidd13>TTRS 3.02a makes OpenTTD look ugly. All text is gone and I see parts of bridges on the screen :(
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12:40<Rubidium>skidd13: any idea since when?
12:41<skidd13>nope
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12:41|-|mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
12:42<TrueBrain>welcome orudge
12:42<@orudge>Hello there
12:42<@orudge>although, I was always here ;)
12:42<@orudge>I just accidentally pressed apple-Q
12:43<TrueBrain>doh :p
12:43<dihedral>hello orudge
12:43[~]orudge finally got his new PC working today
12:43<@orudge>so once I get things sorted out, I'll be able to compile OS/2 :p
12:44[~]ProfFrink compiles OS/4
12:45<ProfFrink>Hey!
12:45|-|ProfFrink changed nick to Prof_Frink
12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>OS/4... is that half a half an OS?
12:46[~]Prof_Frink wonders when oftc dopped out of his keepnick config
12:46<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: No, a quarter. Duh.
12:48<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11194 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: industries with not all tiles custom slope checked (but at least one) would be build on wrongly sloped tiles.
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13:39<@orudge>Prof_Frink! oi! you! nutter!
13:40<Prof_Frink>Y'what, eh?
13:41<@orudge>just thought I'd shout at people
13:41<@orudge>or, well, a person.
13:41<Prof_Frink>Art thou globester?
13:41<@orudge>Well, no.
13:42<@orudge>But I just thought I'd do it anyway.
13:42<@orudge>This place was a bit quite, y'know.
13:42<@orudge>quiet
13:42<@orudge>even.
13:42<Sacro>ofudge its an orudge
13:43<@orudge>it's you
13:43<@orudge>you appear to have been somewhat vanished over the past few days
13:43<Sacro>nope, i'm here
13:43<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11195 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: creation chances for industries during gameplay and during map generation were swapped.
13:43<@orudge>no, on #tycoon, innit
13:43<@orudge>but ah well
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13:44<Sacro>yes, i have removed it from my bouncer's autojoin list
13:44<Sacro>right, to the Hull-LUG!
13:47<mattt_>Hull.. as in Hull, Quebec?
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14:24<globester>jow
14:25<globester>got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies :o
14:25<globester>also i can't build the sh40
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14:29<@Bjarni>ahh
14:29<@Bjarni>finally home :D
14:31<globester>\o/
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14:38<@Bjarni>well, my current task: finish assignment for tomorrow
14:43<skidd13>good night
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15:20<CIA-4>OpenTTD: glx * r11196 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11191): _cur_stage was incorrect for GLS_ACTIVATION stage
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>since when do we have CIA-4?
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>i just wondered that he has a strange colour today
15:22<SmatZ>[19:24:21] <-- CIA-1 has left this server (resistance.oftc.net charm.oftc.net).
15:22<SmatZ>[19:24:36] --> CIA-4 has joined this channel (cia@208.69.182.149).
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15:44<mcbane>heh glx was 3 seconds faster with that comment =P
15:44<+glx>hehe
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16:02<@Bjarni>quit timing out
16:02<@Bjarni>you are interrupting all the important stuff going on in here :P
16:02<Amixwoktest>yeah
16:02<globester>i've got a question though
16:02<Amixwoktest>:=)
16:02<globester>got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies
16:03<@Bjarni>0.5.3 or nightly?
16:03<globester>loaded the autosave but now the sh40 doesn't appear at all heh
16:03<globester>nightly
16:03<Amixwoktest>latest one?
16:03<globester>r11181
16:03<Rubidium>that is NOT the latest one...
16:03<@Bjarni>sounds very much like you substracted more kirbies than you actually sold
16:03<globester>:o
16:04<globester>well, i didn't have any kirbies to start with heh
16:04<@Bjarni>o_O
16:04<globester>i think it happened right after sh40's appearing
16:04<globester>when i reloaded it says i have 0 :/
16:04<@Bjarni>try to reproduce this
16:04<globester>yeah, i was trying it
16:04<@Bjarni>the number of engines is not saved, but counted on load
16:05<globester>after the reload the sh40 didn't appear at all though
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16:06<mcbane>bjarni that buf is somewhere in the bugtracker
16:06<mcbane>buf = bug
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16:16<fjb>Moin
16:18[~]Hendikins plays a game of "how much coal can you get in a 20x20 station catchment area?"
16:18<mcbane>sers
16:18<fjb>Hendikins, the king of coal. :-)
16:19<Ammler>I liked to test the "forbidden" basetunnels on openttd, how can I simulate unifiedmaglev=1?
16:19<Hendikins>fjb: I'm just adding more and more mines to try and saturate my route.
16:19<Rafagd>(x coal = money hax =\ x) 147
16:19<fjb>What are "forbidden" basetunnels?
16:19[~]Hendikins is only actually using 20x3 for trains, and has scattered bits of detached station to cover the catchment area
16:20<Ammler>fjb: they are from eis_os and mustn't be used on OTTD.
16:20<fjb>Do you play in desert? I never have anough space between the mountains.
16:21<fjb>And what is eis_os?
16:21<mcbane>eis_os is a TTD dev
16:22<Ammler>he made some cool stuff for TTDPatch and grfcrawler
16:22<fjb>Thank you.
16:23<fjb>I have a question about tram stops. Do the have to be as least as long as the tram?
16:23<+glx>no
16:23<dihedral>do you guys consider "teleports" a bug?
16:23<fjb>I guess Einstein would...
16:24<Rubidium>Ammler: base tunnels *are* explicitly disallowed (by the NewGRF) for OpenTTD.
16:24<@Bjarni><fjb> And what is eis_os? <-- it's "who", not "what".... he is a person, not an item :P
16:24<dihedral>i.e. using station spread to make rv's more profitable?
16:24<Rafagd>tram ins not always 1 "car"?
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16:25|-|Mark changed nick to Mark|asleep
16:25<Ammler>Rubidium: you mean, its coded to not support OTTD, wow.
16:25<Wolf01|AWAY>'night
16:25<Rubidium>exactly
16:25<dihedral>nicht
16:25|-|Wolf01|AWAY [~wolf01@host240-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:25<dihedral>*night
16:25<fjb>Don't know how articulatet road vehicels work. Thought they get a penalty when loading and unloading when they are longer as the stop. Thought it would be same as when a train is longer then the railway station.
16:26|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77ED2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
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16:33<@Bjarni>looks like Vadim wants to worship me as a god...
16:34<@Bjarni>do I appear that all mighty to you?
16:35<fjb>WhO?
16:35<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: How's your thunderbolt-weilding?
16:36<@Bjarni>better than you would expect
16:36<@Bjarni>fjb: Vadim
16:36|-|elmex [~elmex@e180065086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:36<@Bjarni>I just told you :P
16:37<@Bjarni>will you guys worship me as well?
16:37<fjb>Bjarni: I meant, who appears mighty? :-)
16:37<TrueBrain>@kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
16:37|-|fjb kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [me]
16:37|-|fjb [~frank@p5485D449.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:37<TrueBrain>hmm
16:38<TrueBrain>@kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
16:38|-|Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over]
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16:38<@Bjarni>haha
16:38<TrueBrain>Ah, there it is :)
16:38<fjb>:-P
16:38<@Bjarni>even DorpsGek is aware of my new status
16:38<@Bjarni>and then again, maybe not
16:39<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: don't interrupt me. I'm making a survey based on feedback I got today
16:39<TrueBrain>@kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
16:39|-|Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over]
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16:39<@Bjarni>I want to know if there are similar naive people in here
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
16:40<@Bjarni>cool
16:41<@Bjarni>I could be the start of a new religion
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>but i think you spoiled your relationship with Sacro already
16:41<@Bjarni>oh
16:41[~]Prof_Frink points Bjarni at the 'o' section of the nicklist
16:42<fjb>Starting a new religion is useless, but maybe you could get rich that way. Hm, lets start a new religion.
16:42<@Bjarni>well
16:42<@Bjarni>I call it opportunity
16:43<@Bjarni>I got worshippers even before I realised that I could start a religion
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>the question is, if you can get a couple of RICH worshippers
16:45<@Bjarni>or convince people that they should sell all their organs and donate the money
16:45<fjb>I you can't, get lots of poor worshippers and tell them to give you they have. :-)
16:46<fjb>If
16:47<@Bjarni>actually just as long as people worship me, I can get reduced taxes :D
16:47<Prof_Frink>Just smite the taxman.
16:48[~]Sacro is highlighted
16:48<fjb>You still pay taxes? :-)
16:48<@Bjarni>right now?
16:48<@Bjarni>no
16:48<@Bjarni>paying income tax would need an income :s
16:48<Sacro>taxies?
16:49<fjb>How can I park a concorde in front of my head qarter?
16:49<Prof_Frink>Taxi for Sacro
16:49<fjb>No taxis, use the bike.
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>i really do not understand why this 3D thing is not working :(
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>all driver output looks ok
16:54<Sacro>What gets longer when pulled, fits between breasts, inserts neatly in a hole, and works best when jerked?
16:54<Sacro>A Seatbelt!
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>what does "jerked" mean in that context?
16:56<@Bjarni>I think it's when you pull it so fast that it locks
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17:04<gynterk>hey, is there any other way to use 'non-stop' exept with 'TTDPatch comatible nonstop handling'?
17:04<gynterk>Since server admins don't want to enable it...
17:06|-|MarkSlap [~shit@h241n3c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<Sacro>yes, you can use it without it
17:06<Sacro>just clicky on the button
17:07<gynterk>it doesn't work for me
17:07<gynterk>still stops in station
17:07<@Bjarni>yeah
17:07|-|MarkSlap [~shit@h200n3c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #openttd
17:07<@Bjarni>then it will just head for that station and not stop at any stations on the way
17:08<@Bjarni>you can use a waypoint instead
17:08<@Bjarni>but they are limited to one tile only
17:08<@Bjarni>trains never stops at waypoints
17:08<gynterk>yes
17:08<dihedral>g'night ladies :-)
17:08<gynterk>i wouldn't use non-stop if waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile ;)
17:09<gynterk>good night dihedral
17:09<@Bjarni>waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile if ludde had understood what they were needed for when he coded them :/
17:10<Sacro>Bjarni: you have the commit rights
17:10<Sacro>EDIT IT
17:10|-|dihedral [~dihedral@dslb-084-057-250-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417]]
17:10<@Bjarni>expanding them to more than one tile is the same as starting over
17:10|-|Farden123 [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-33-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
17:10<gynterk>yes, but this would be excellent feature...
17:11<Prof_Frink>Well, if you're starting over, you could use waypoints as an equivalent to ttdpatch's signalling restrictions
17:13<fjb>I think they are different. Way points are one thing, something like signal restrictions are the other. I thought about a kind of penalty marker that you could set on any pice of track.
17:15<fjb>The penalty marker could share same same tile with a signal.
17:16<gynterk>ah and btw, does anyone know a grf what changes signal system in intersections that it's possible to have more than 1 train there, if tracks would set that there would be no way those trains will crash
17:17<Prof_Frink>fjb: And why shouldn't a waypoint?
17:17<fjb>Tekki is working on a new cool signal system. At least I hope he is still working on it.
17:17|-|Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-122-230.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:19<SmatZ>there was some NAND signal system - very nice to make complex logic functions :)
17:19<Sacro>SmatZ: NOR is more fun
17:19<SmatZ>:-D
17:19|-|David_McMahon [~fake@dsl-fixed-77-44-48-144.interdsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd
17:19<Sacro>but quite useless for building a station
17:19<fjb>A way point is a way to tell a train go there. It is something else then setting penalties for the pathfinder. Its mor like a negative penalty. Kind of a reward for the pathfinder.
17:19<Sacro>caused me way too many accidents
17:20|-|FlowaPowa [~FlowaPowa@4va54-4-82-244-103-144.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: FlowaPowa]
17:20<fjb>We really need the thing that Tekki talked about. It's like the real signal systems work. And they work that way because there is no better way.
17:23|-|Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:23<Greyscale>Whats happening here then?
17:24|-|FlowaPowa [~FlowaPowa@4va54-4-82-244-103-144.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
17:24<Sacro>we are about to have our weekly sacrifice
17:24|-|Farden123 [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-33-119.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:24<Sacro>just need a n00b
17:25<a1270>i suggest Greyscale
17:25<gynterk>is 10 clients and 8 companies max for a server?
17:25[~]Bjarni nominates a1270
17:25<Greyscale>Sup.
17:25<Greyscale>I nominate a1270 too, because I can kick his ass.
17:25<Greyscale>that reminds me to check my company
17:25<a1270>i'm sort of kicking your ass.
17:26<gynterk>well I don't know who a1270 is, but i'll nominate a1270
17:26[~]Sacro tallies the votes
17:26<Sacro>anyone else want to cast one?
17:27<globester>i vote CIA-4
17:27<Greyscale>a1270, your compile of our version of OTTD is still broken
17:27<fjb>How can I look more closely at a tramtrack in a city? Even the transparent buildings make the streets that dark that I don'nt see why my trams just stop at a bend and try to drive straight ahead into the next building.
17:27<a1270>the gods don't like me. they will give you bad crops next year.
17:27<globester>other graphic files fjb?
17:27<Greyscale>Game needs civilian traffic
17:27<Greyscale>like, in large citys, cars that drive about
17:27<fjb>globester: What di you mean?
17:27<Greyscale>and clog the road
17:27<gynterk>how do you build trams ?
17:28<a1270>Greyscale, i just un7zip'd it and i can connect.
17:28<Greyscale>Oo
17:28<gynterk>i wanna drive trams to buildings too
17:28<Greyscale>wierd
17:28|-|FlowaPowa [~FlowaPowa@4va54-4-82-244-103-144.fbx.proxad.net] has quit []
17:28<Greyscale>a1270, relink?
17:28<globester>well if you change the graphics to ones with more contrast it might be easier to see them
17:28<fjb>Trams are in the nightly build.
17:28<gynterk>ah ok
17:29<fjb>Hm, but I don't havfe other graphics at hand.
17:31<fjb>I'm trying th use a magnifier now.
17:32<globester>heh
17:32<gynterk>hmm interesting
17:32<gynterk>i nearly flooded all of my railways
17:32<fjb>Where is the next tram? It's never there when you need one.
17:35<fjb>Hey, it works now. ut is there a way to turn around a stuck tram? I just had to reload an autosave from bevore it got stuck. :-(
17:43<goddamnit>no
17:43<goddamnit>u have to lay track infront
17:43<fjb>I would like to have a transrapid just go through the middle of the city.
17:43<goddamnit>u can
17:43<goddamnit>jsut take alot of planning
17:43<goddamnit>but why the middle?
17:44<fjb>But what do you do if you can't put a track in front of the tram?
17:44<Amixwoktest>you have to be careful in the cities
17:44<goddamnit>GG NO RE
17:44<Amixwoktest>hehe
17:44<Amixwoktest>dont build dead ends there
17:44<fjb>I have an aiport in the middle of that city.
17:44<Amixwoktest>especially in cities that hates you
17:45|-|orudge [~orudge@78.32.42.130] has quit [Quit: changing pc]
17:45<fjb>Amixwoktest; there should have been no dead end. It took me three times till there was really a bend. The tracks did cross instead of bend.
17:46<gynterk>buy them
17:46<gynterk>and plant trees
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17:46<gynterk>hmm it isn't possible to demolish tram tracks ?
17:46<Amixwoktest>fjb: the tram construction works like road construction
17:46<Amixwoktest>so i guess thats the thing
17:47<fjb>Not much space left to build trees. And the city still likes me. And I like that city. I hate to destroy big buildings.
17:48<fjb>Amixwoktest: I know. The problem was, that one track was kind of pointing into the next building instead of joining the other track to build a bend.
17:48<Amixwoktest>mhm
17:48<Amixwoktest>same happened to me
17:49<fjb>And it was in the middle of a big city, so just a really dark corner with transparent buildings. I had to use a sreen magnifier to find out what happened.
17:50<Amixwoktest>fjb: thats why i build http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/OpenTTD/Brondingtown.png
17:50<Amixwoktest>build the tram in the middle
17:50<Amixwoktest>so that town builds arround it later on
17:52<fjb>Once there was a small town. Then came a small airport. Then came the railway. Then the town grew. Now the airport is way too small. I build a bigger airport next to the town, but now I have to join the two airports somehow.
17:53<fjb>But it's really fun to see an Airbus descend in the middle of a big city. :-)
17:54<fjb>I wouldn't try it with my concorde...
17:58|-|huma [~huma@89.19.167.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:01<Amixwoktest>hehe
18:01|-|huma [~huma@89.19.167.191] has joined #openttd
18:02<globester>i've got a terminus line, 1 track station but it's bringing in 150k a year atm because it's right in the middle of the city
18:02<globester>can't change it anymore unless i destroy a big part of the city heh
18:03|-|AntB [~AntB-UK@81.140.71.226] has joined #openttd
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2014.%20Mar%201926.png <- my tram
18:03|-|Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41662.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:03<gynterk>is it possible to see chat history/log ?
18:03<fjb>Soma as my airport. I enhanced it to a commuter airport. Bur I can't make it bidgger. That's why I thought about the Transrapid.
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%206.%20Jan%201924.png <- earlier version
18:04|-|prakti [~prakti@port-213-148-152-8.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Quitting .... Hackedi...hackedi...weg.]
18:05<fjb>Nice place for a station.
18:05<gynterk>anyone ?
18:05<gynterk>chatlog, somewhere ?
18:05<SmatZ>!log
18:06<SmatZ>hmm
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>!logs
18:06<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
18:06<gynterk>nono
18:06<gynterk>i mean in-game :D
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>the console has some kind of log
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>but it probably does not go very far
18:06<gynterk>ah
18:06<gynterk>thanks
18:06<gynterk>didn't know there was console
18:07<gynterk>is*
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18:09|-|Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- this is a much nicer station ;)
18:10|-|nickname [~ident@ip70-176-19-85.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #openttd
18:10<nickname>my setting is set to US English, but it says tonnes instead of tons
18:10<nickname>is there something wrong?
18:10<Brianetta>no
18:10<Brianetta>A ton is imperial, a tonne metric
18:10<Brianetta>Nothing to do with country
18:10<nickname>mmm
18:10<nickname>but i've never heard tonne
18:11<Brianetta>It's 1000kg
18:11<nickname>weird
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>nickname: just also change to imperial settings
18:11<Brianetta>Not as weird as pounds etc
18:11<nickname>Eddi|zuHause: it is set to imperial
18:11<ln->did you ever hear of kg?
18:11<ln->d
18:11<ln->-d
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>then you are screwed :p
18:12<nickname>that just seems to effect mph/kph
18:12<nickname>yes i've heard of kg
18:12|-|David_McMahon [~fake@dsl-fixed-77-44-48-144.interdsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:12<Brianetta>Does it use HP or KW for power?
18:12<nickname>looks like imperial/metric uses hp and SI uses KW
18:13<nickname>interseting... if it put it on SI then it says 25,000 kg instead of tonnes
18:13<Brianetta>That's because a tonne isn't an SI unit
18:13<Brianetta>The kilogramme is
18:13<gynterk>i like si...
18:14<nickname>but if tonne is metric and ton is imperial, why doesnt it say ton when i set to imperial
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>i just don't like giving speeds in m/s
18:14<Brianetta>nickname: File that as a bug
18:14<Brianetta>It should give power in KW in metric mode, too
18:14<nickname>ah
18:14<nickname>ok
18:14<gynterk>Eddi|zuHause: i can calculate fast :P
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>gynterk: i can'T
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>i have studied too much maths for that :p
18:15<gynterk>:D
18:15<ln->Brianetta: kW
18:15<Brianetta>ln-: You knew what I meant
18:16<ln->Brianetta: you can pro gue wha i mea if i onl wri 3 fir let, but is tha goo the?
18:17<Brianetta>you what?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: that does not work well in german :p
18:17<ln->Eddi|zuHause: tat? sch.
18:18[~]glx understood what ln- said :)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>vor has du pro mit zus wör.
18:19<+glx>but I needed to read it at least 3 times
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>ans wer deu wör gru wes län als eng wör
18:20<Brianetta>Helen has enrolled on a German beginners course.
18:20<ln->who is Hel?
18:20<Brianetta>We're planning to go to Leipzig for Wave next year.
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>Leipzig is right around the corner from here
18:20<Brianetta>Cool. Where is ,here'?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i live near Halle (Saale)
18:21<fjb>I have been in Halle last winter.
18:22<Brianetta>You have a mini version of the cathedral in Köln (:
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>actually, that is two churches who merged
18:23<Brianetta>Physically?
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>basically they removed the second church, except from the towers, and then extended the other one to those towers
18:24<Brianetta>wow
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's why it has 4 towers
18:24<Brianetta>and a cathedral, two castles...
18:25<Brianetta>That place rocks
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>together with the "red tower" in the middle of the market place, it creates the characteristic "5 towers" of halle
18:25<Phazorx>imperial should also have barrels insetad of liters for liquids
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>also, halle is the birthplace of Georg Friedrich Händel
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>famous composer
18:26<Brianetta>Fast composer
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>most famous pieces are the fireworks music, the water music, and the messiah
18:27<Brianetta>although he wrote that in London
18:27<Brianetta>he did the whole work in about a fortnight
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, he worked there most of the time
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>there are "Händelfestspiele" every year
18:29<Brianetta>ugh
18:29<Brianetta>I never liked him that much
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to ;)
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>we have other stuff, too
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>like a beatles museum
18:29<Brianetta>Shopping till 11!
18:30<Brianetta>That's on Friday
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>oh, btw. the church with the 4 towers is not the cathedral
18:30<Brianetta>I know
18:30<Brianetta>the cathedral has no towers
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>that is correct ;)
18:31<Brianetta>http://www.halle.de/index.asp?MenuID=1164
18:31<Brianetta>live webcam of the Marktplatz
18:31<Brianetta>The Red Tower is hidden in a box )-:
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, they are working on it right now
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i live about 15km in the direction of that camera
18:34<gynterk>is it allowed that Owen's TTS is provading links to download TTD data ?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>are you complaining?
18:34<@orudge>well
18:34<@orudge>it's not strictly speaking legal, no.
18:35<@orudge>but effectively, the powers that be don't seem to care
18:35<@orudge>and I was fed up of receiving e-mails asking where to download TTD :P
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>iirc i got mine from ttdlxhq
18:37<ln->i bought a copy of TTD through amazon.co.uk recently.
18:37|-|N101 [~Name101@CPE-121-216-195-239.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
18:38<fjb>They still sell it?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>i bought TT when it came out
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>and the world editor later
18:39<fjb>I didn't know about TT or TTD till a few days ago.
18:40<gynterk>..
18:40<gynterk>have played it since kid
18:40<Brianetta>It hasn't been around since I was a kid )-:
18:41<Brianetta>I was all adultified and growed up when it came out
18:41<gynterk>who holds copyright over TT(D) ?
18:41<ln->i first found TT on a pirate CD bought from Tallinn.
18:41<Brianetta>Nobody is certain
18:41<Brianetta>If there was any certainty, there would be fewer problems getting the legalities sorted out
18:42<fjb>Atari holds the copyright.
18:42<gynterk>ln-: From Kadaka market :D ?
18:42<ln->gynterk: mustamäe
18:42<@orudge>do they, though, fjb, or do they just hold the marketing rights? The About window claims Chris Sawyer owns the copyright...
18:42|-|Greyscale [~Grey@host86-131-39-100.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:44<gynterk>ah its like it was with Build engine
18:45<fjb>Did Chris Sawyer say anything about OpenTTD yet?
18:45<ln->indirectly
18:45<fjb>What did he say?
18:47<Brianetta>Well, he's not going to update our about boxes if he sells his copyright
18:48<@orudge>We've had these discussions many times before, fjb ;) We should archive them somewhere, perhaps
18:48<@orudge>apart from in the !logs
18:48<@orudge>but anyway
18:48<@orudge>Chris Sawyer hasn't said anything as such
18:48<@orudge>but somebody close to him says he apparently isn't much of an OpenTTD fan
18:49<+glx>nor a TTDP fan
18:49<@orudge>Indeed not
18:50<gynterk>does he even like the original game?
18:50<fjb>I guess he lieks it. He wrote it. :-)
18:50<ln->sure
18:51<@orudge>He doesn't like people changing his "vision"
18:51<@orudge>TTD was meant to be the way it was meant to be, warts and all, he says
18:52<@orudge>practically speaking though, there's not that much he can do about TTDPatch, which is technically legal, and OpenTTD, which, well, is debatable
18:52<@orudge>it's not really worth his time or trouble to mount legal action
18:52<@orudge>he's currently in the middle of legal action against Atari anyway
18:53<+glx>why?
18:53<fjb>It would be a big step if OpenTTD didn't need the original files anymore.
18:53<@Belugas>we might one day
18:53<@orudge>why is he suing Atari, glx?
18:53<@orudge>you mean?
18:53<+glx>yes
18:54<@orudge>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0,1000000308,39236481,00.htm
18:54<@orudge>http://legalit.itproportal.com/?p=659 too
18:54<ln->he's scottish?
18:54<fjb>OpenTTD goes far beyond of what TTD does. And it looks like there is not that much of the reverse engeneered code anymore.
18:54<Brianetta>fjb: That doesn't matter a jot.
18:54<Brianetta>It's a derrived work.
18:55|-|Osai [~Osai@pD9EB7802.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Osai]
18:55<Brianetta>Each revision is a derivative of the one before, right back to a decompilation event.
18:55<@orudge>ln-: Yes
18:55<@orudge>He lives about an hour away from where I am right now
18:55<@Belugas>and there are a lot of lines untouched from initial release, be sure of that
18:55<@orudge>I could pop over and offer him a drink ;)
18:55<ln->you should do that
18:56<ln->hmmm, being scottish explains the buildings from glasgow.
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18:56<Phazorx>orudge: you should do that
18:57<Phazorx>and i tihnk the fact that openttd existance prolongs life of his project - he should be happy about
18:57<gynterk>yeah
18:57<gynterk>and convince him to open-source all TTD data
18:57<@orudge>Haha, not going to happen, alas
18:57<@orudge>Chris has his own way of doing things, it seems
18:57<@orudge>and now
18:57<@orudge>I'm off to bed
18:58<Brianetta>(boing)
18:58<gynterk>ok
18:58<gynterk>I'm off to bed too
18:58<gynterk>night
18:58<@Belugas>night orudge
18:58<ln->knight orudge
18:58<@orudge>Night knight gnight fight!
18:58<@orudge>etc
18:59<ln->but seriously, it's not a good idea to try to "convince" someone earning a living from games to open-source them
19:00<ln->the better way would be to negotiate a reasonable price for things.
19:02<gynterk>hmm
19:02<gynterk>but does Chris hold (c) over graphics ?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>i can imagine that Atari does not completely want to clarify ownership because it might reveal some other dead bodies in their basement
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. in context with that lawsuit above
19:06<ln->who was the bonehead who contacted the graphics artist and asked if he'd like to draw new graphics for OTTD for free?
19:07<Phazorx>ln-: he gots royalties from every copy of ottd sold?
19:07<Phazorx>sounds like a ncie arangement for one who makes living of selling games
19:07|-|N101 [~Name101@CPE-121-216-195-239.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
19:08<ln->i have no idea what kind of a deal sawyer and others have.
19:09<Phazorx>ln-: i mean that can be an arrangement for ottd
19:09|-|Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: reboot]
19:09<fjb>There are some really talented artists who make graphics for OpenTTD and TTDP. It would be better to convince one of the to do new graphics.
19:09<Phazorx>and biggest offence i can uimagine would be not having his name on title screen of the game
19:10<Phazorx>fjb: that does not change the fact of ottd being derivative of tt
19:10<ln->fjb: such graphics could still be considered a derivative work.
19:11<fjb>We have the svn logs of the last years. Everything that was there before could be replaced an documentet in the logs. But that would be much work. The BDS people did the same thing. Now BSD is free from every Copyright.
19:14<ln->BSD is public domain now?
19:14<ln->fjb: and actually part of svn history has been lost.
19:15<fjb>I should have said it's free from the UNIX copyright. They have their own copyright now.
19:15<fjb>Every thing that was there before the svn got lost hast to be rewritten.
19:15<ln->it's still derivative work.
19:16<ln->it doesn't change anything.
19:21<ln->proof: every attempt to create an open-source TTD-style (not clone) strategy game has failed. qed.
19:21<fjb>Here is the FreeBSd copyright: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html
19:21<fjb>Why has it failed? I guess most parts are no new invention of Chris Sawyer.
19:21<fjb>BSD ist like UNIX. It startet from UNIX source. It is not counted as derived work in any way.
19:21<fjb>Isometry engines were there before TT.
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: there are lots of attempts to be found in the forum
19:21<fjb>And look at empire, it was open source long before TT existet.
19:21<ln->failed probably because although there's nothing fundamentally new or complex in TTD, it is still hard work to build such a game, and so far no one has succeeded in the open source world.
19:22<fjb>Sure it is hard work. I guess OpenTTDs new pathfinder was also a lot of work. And many other things there were rewritten for OpenTTD.
19:22<ln->fjb: it's a little like: you've seen a word processor such as Word or OpenOffice. no rocket science in them. still, would you be capable of writing one from scratch a) on your free time, b) even if you were paid?
19:23<fjb>Much work for a single person. But there is more than one person working at OpenTTD. And look at BSD or Linux. That are whole operating systems. Most done in free time.
19:24<ln->errr.. no.
19:24<ln->e.g. Red Hat has a lot of paid employees working fulltime on Linux.
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: stuff [YAPF] gets so much easier if you already have a framework [OTTD] to test it in
19:24<fjb>And word is far more work than OpenTTD. Or look at Scribus, a whole dtp system.
19:24|-|KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-131-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:24<ln->fjb: ok, since it is that easy, why have all open source train game attempts failed?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>and that framework is and will always and forever be a derived work
19:25<fjb>They have lot of people now. But look at the BSD people. Most parts were done in free time.
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19:26<fjb>I don't think that the framework is derived work when every line of the code is new.
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>i would imagine that BSD stuff is a lot of students work
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>not so much free time work
19:27<fjb>BSD ist far bigger than OpenTTD. Early Linus was done in free time.
19:27<Brianetta>[01:19] <fjb> BSD ist like UNIX. It startet from UNIX source. It is not counted as derived work in any way.
19:27<Brianetta>BSD is UNIX
19:27<fjb>UNIX was copyrigted by AT&T at that time.
19:27<Brianetta>no
19:27<Brianetta>BSD is UNIX
19:28<Brianetta>as in, completely
19:28<Brianetta>AT&T has SysV, which was the other UNIX
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: it does not suffice to just replace lines of code
19:28<fjb>Berkley got the right to work on that code, but AT&T withdrew that licence.
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>you also have to prove that you did not let you "inspire" by the old code
19:29<Brianetta>fjb: What are you on about? UNIX is a trademark, owned by The Open Group
19:29<Brianetta>BSD is a UNIX
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>OTTD is tainted, and you will never remove that taint unless you start completely from scratch
19:29<Brianetta>Not a UNIX-like, not a clone
19:29<fjb>You don't have to prove that you don't know how the old code works. You just have to prove that your code is not identical to the old code.
19:30<ln->fjb: so copyright can be removed just by doing a few search-and-replaces for some variable and function names. how simple.
19:30<Brianetta>It isn't so simple.
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>and add a few +0 or *1 everywhere
19:30<fjb>Not completel from scratch. The new pathfinder and other new things could stay in place. We have the logs that prove it is new.
19:31<Brianetta>It would have to be a clean-room implementation in order to be untainted. There is no reverse engineering defence there.
19:31<fjb>But starting over would not be that kind of a bad idea. We could get rid of C and C++ then. :-)
19:32<Brianetta>If I were starting over, I'd be tempted to begin with C++
19:32<ln->and move to ObjC
19:32<Brianetta>and have a full OO design
19:32|-|Wezz6400_ [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd
19:32<Brianetta>In fact, I'd start with a design
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>UML
19:32<fjb>Full OO would be great, but also not ObjectivC. Something readeble please.
19:33<Brianetta>A design document, stating the objectives of the project.
19:33<ln->i'd suggest the improved version of Brainfuck that supports threads.
19:33<Brianetta>That Which Does Not Exist.
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>Brainfuck# ;)
19:34<ln->it may not have SDL bindings available
19:34<fjb>Design is always good. Many limitations could be removed that way. The restricted number of slots for the vehicles could be removed. Just put a NewGRF compatibility layer on top of the new design.
19:35|-|Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-84-227-188-140.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:36<Brianetta>One could polymorph vehicle classes
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: part of the problem is that NewGRF was designed with those restrictions in mind
19:36<Brianetta>Eddi: It might be, but it's extremely versatile.
19:37<@Belugas>[20:35] <fjb> Full OO would be great <--- why would be so great about it?
19:38|-|Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, there are more design constraints, like being able to load old [release] savegames
19:38<fjb>You could map the slots internally to linked lists an translate the vehicle ids.
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>and use the old graphics files
19:39<fjb>Why do you need to load saved games. It's just a game and no importand documents.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: "linked lists" do not have anything to do in such a level of development plan
19:39<fjb>Just play a game with OpenTTD. But start a new game with a rewritten OpenTTD.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: because you want people to migrate to the new platform
19:40<fjb>How long do people play a game? Month? Years?
19:40<ln->i agree that being able to load old games is not important.
19:40<fjb>Just make sure you can use the cool NewGRFs. That lavel of compatibility is nedded, not a saved game.
19:41<ln->and i also agree with eddi that "linked list" does not belong to a high-level architecture description.
19:41<fjb>You can alway play your old saved game with the current OpenTTD.
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: it has been in the previous development, i see no reason to drop that policy, just because you are starting over with the codebase
19:41<ln->Eddi|zuHause: new people, new policy.
19:42<fjb>It was just an example how you could have a new design under the hood an stay compatible with the old interface with slots.
19:42<@Belugas>[20:43] <ln-> i agree that being able to load old games is not important. <--- it is very important, sorry to be against your opinion
19:43<fjb>Ofcourse it is important when you make updates tp OpenTTD. But not if you start new. Is Locomotion able to read saved games of TT?
19:43<ln->fjb: aren't the "cool NewGRFs" limited to 256 colors and the sizes used in TTD?
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: is Locomotion as successful as OpenTTD?
19:44<fjb>They are limited. But if the new games uses more colors, than sprites with 256 colos can still beused. It would be a problem the other way round.
19:44<@Belugas>fjb, granted
19:44<+glx>ln-: they "can" use 32bpp colors
19:45<ln->semi-offtopic: has there been any USEFUL updates to Locomotion since it was released?
19:45<fjb>I don't know how successfull Locomotion is. It think it look to much like candy.
19:45<ln->there was one update that fixed something as severe as "Insert CD" showing in english in the german version.
19:46|-|Rafagd [~Rafagd@BHE200150061031.res-com.wayinternet.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>you need a versioning system anyway, so it is not a huge work to allow a plug for old versions of the savegame structure
19:49<ln->Eddi|zuHause: preferably a rewrite from scratch should be made by people who have not been at least main developers of OpenTTD.
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have an infinite source of developer candidates...
19:49<ln->it could be outsourced to india.
19:50<fjb>:-)
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>that would require money
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>and money vs. open source does not behave too well
19:55<fjb>Could the authors of TTRS be convinced to do some graphics for a new game?
19:56<ln->what's TTRS?
19:57|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:57<fjb>Total town replacement set. A set that replaces all the houses in TTD with really nice new ones.
19:58<CIA-4>OpenTTD: belugas * r11197 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf.cpp town_cmd.cpp):
19:58<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Fix: It is not useful to reset the override of an entity every time a new grf file is been submitted.
19:58<CIA-4>OpenTTD: Since newhouses showed the way to newindustries(meaning I copied/adapted a lot of code and processes from it), the behaviour was there for newhouses too.
19:59<fjb>I think about a rotatable map. But that would need houses with four sides, not just two.
20:00<@Belugas>fjb, i think not.
20:00<@Belugas>the point is that Zimmlock is aiming at a different goal
20:00<fjb>What is his goal?
20:01<@Belugas>industries, iirc
20:01<@Belugas>good night
20:01<ln->gezien de afwezigheid van restanten schijnen ze gecamoufleerd te zijn
20:02<fjb>Industries would be better with four sides, too. :-)
20:02<fjb>Belugas: good night
20:08|-|goddamnit changed nick to DeGhost
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20:16<Phazorx>err... what's 42's keyword for translating again?
20:23<ln->http://www.gvh.de/typo3temp/pics/604025c0e4.jpg
20:23<AntB>ok...
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: i'm 99% sure it's just another random star trek phrase
20:24<Phazorx>hmm?
20:24<fjb>:-)
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>ln-'s phrase
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>it ends with "appear to be cloaked"
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>and says something about "lack of residue" or something
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just not sure what "gezien" is supposed to mean
20:27<ln->gezien: considering [kən'sɪd(ə)rɪŋ] preposition
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i just can't come up with a matching german word...
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20:28<ln->"angesichts"
20:29<ln->says this multi-language dictionary
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>well... ok... but that one is neither close to the dutch word, nor very commonly used
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20:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i would not try to directly translate the word, but instead rephrase the sentence slightly
20:33<Phazorx>!translate de_en "angesichts"
20:33<Phazorx>!translate de_en angesichts
20:33<Phazorx>is not translate?
20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>more like "Aufgrund der Tatsache, daß ..."
20:36<Eddi|zuHause2>or simply "Da es keine Rückstände gibt, ..."
20:36<ln->actually the latter one doesn't suit for commander Data.
20:37<Eddi|zuHause2>well, that is quite some important context information for a proper translation :p
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20:39<ln->indeed
20:40<Eddi|zuHause2>do you have an episode number, so i can try to find the actual translation?
20:40<Phazorx>of that is too geeky
20:41<Eddi|zuHause2>"Aus Rechtsgründen hat Google 1 Ergebnis(se) von dieser Seite entfernt."
20:42<ln->season 2, episode "134: a matter of honor"
20:42<ln->i don't know wtf is the 134 supposed to mean, but that's what it says in the dvd menu.
20:44<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: actually.. these dvds have german soundtrack so i could save your trouble and check it myself.
20:44<Eddi|zuHause2>that might be convenient ;)
20:47<fjb>Why do railway stations tend to get that long...?
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: because trains are traditionally much longer than wide
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20:51<fjb>A better signal system would be of much help...
20:53<ln->"die zensoren können keine tromatein entdecken, daher ist angenehmen, daß die Pagh getannt wurde und sich noch in diesen region befindet." (i wrote what i heard, not necessarily correct spelling)
20:53<Eddi|zuHause2>the spelling is way off
20:53<Eddi|zuHause2>and what is "tromatein" supposed to mean?
20:54<ln->ask cmdr Data.
20:54<fjb>Tomaten? :-)
20:55<Eddi|zuHause2>"Die Sensoren können keine [...] entdecken, daher ist anzunehmen, daß die Pagh [shipname?] getarnt wurde, und sich noch in dieser Region befindet."
20:55<ln->here's what the subtitles say: "Die Sensoren orten keine Trümmer. Es ist anzunehmen, dass sich die Pagh tarnt und noch hier befindet." (but that's not 1:1 what's on the soundtrack)
20:55<Eddi|zuHause2>"Trümmerteile"?
20:55<fjb>Trümmer, das passt.
20:57<Eddi|zuHause2>and that phrase sounds somehow familiar ;)
20:57<Eddi|zuHause2>and like i said, that sentence is quite a bit rephrased
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>and "daher" is the matching word, so i was not that far off with "da"
20:59<ln->they've got quite good lip sync, which must have affected their choice of translation.
20:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, it's definitely a major factor
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21:06<ln->must be quite much work to create all the background sounds from scratch whenever someone says something.
21:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not sure, i would assume they get some kind of sound library from the original post-production
21:09<Eddi|zuHause2>they also need access to the background music etc.
21:09<ln->quite possible.
21:11<ln->5.1 soundtracks could almost be translated by replacing the center channel.
21:11<fjb>Today the voices and the sound are on different track. Till the 70s every sound effect had to be redone.
21:13<Eddi|zuHause2>today they also send a video stream without any text overlay... in older shows you often see a black frame around embedded subtitles, where they had to erase the existing subtitles first
21:15<Eddi|zuHause2>don't need to be subtitles, also you often have location descriptions, or the episode title
21:16<Eddi|zuHause2>what i noticed recently, that in american series, they rarely show the episode titles
21:16<Eddi|zuHause2>but they always add them in the german translation
21:16<ln->some years ago Star Wars Episode 1 surprised people over here, the scrolling text at the begin was localized into Finnish, not subtitled.
21:17<ln->in Ep2 it was in English, and Ep3 again in Finnish, how logical.
21:17<Eddi|zuHause2>that was always in german, as far as i remember
21:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean, also in episodes 4-6 [new count]
21:18<ln->on DVD that was implemented using angles.
21:18<ln->(the angle feature used on a non-porn disc!)
21:19<Eddi|zuHause2>haha :p
21:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have any dvds
21:20<fjb>I didn't know that anybody used it...
21:21<ln->i think angles were somehow utilized in the extras as well.
21:23<ln->another interesting thing with the Ep1 DVD was its price policy.
21:23<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it's difficult to use such a feature for a film originally intended to be shown linearily in a cinema
21:23<ln->when it was new, the DVD cost something close to 40€.
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21:24<Eddi|zuHause2>are they insane?
21:24<Eddi|zuHause2>i can rent an entire cinema for that price
21:24<ln->however, if you ordered it from Australia, you got it delivered to your mailbox for about 22€.
21:25<Eddi|zuHause2>i should go to bed
21:25<ln->and that Australian version *was* R2,R4, and it *did* have subtitles in scandinavian languages.
21:27<ln->same content for half the price if you order it from the other side of the globe. does that compute?
21:30<fjb>Its all about transportation... :-)
21:32<fjb>Shit, I have been cought bribing. :-(
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21:46<fjb>Good night.
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 03 00:00:47 2007