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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-06

---Logopened Sat Oct 06 00:00:25 2007
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00:37<SquireJames>Hello, I was just wondering if anyone knew if anyone had any plans for Restrictive Signalling in OTTD
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00:42<De_Ghost>or a always green signal
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01:00<SquireJames>Okay, i'll ask here ;)
01:01<SquireJames>Does OpenTTD support enhancedtunnels or custombridgeheads?
01:03<DaleStan>toresbe: PBS was removed ages ago. (Before 0.5.0)
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01:34<SquireJames>Right, sorry if i bother people with questions but
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04:52<dihedral>morning... :-)
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05:54<toresbe>DaleStan: ah. The wiki does not reflect this :)
06:02<XeryusTC><SquireJames> Does OpenTTD support enhancedtunnels or custombridgeheads? <- no, no
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06:14<Tefad>i've not known many wiki's to be very reflective
06:14<Tefad>try a mirror instead
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07:19<dihedral>max_ships = 0 a and i was just offered a hovercraft :-)
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08:19<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11217 /trunk/ ( readme.txt): -Update: the readme as some things weren't quite right anymore.
08:20<CIA-4>OpenTTD: glx * r11218 /trunk/ ( config.lib): -Codechange: remove unused ENABLE_INSTALL in, and add --disable-unicode in configure help
08:21<Betalord>is that autoreplace button working?
08:21<+glx>in depots?
08:21<Betalord>I tried dragging a plane to it (in the hangar) to replace it as it was old, but it didn't do anything
08:21<+glx>you just need to clic on it
08:21<Betalord>so I had to sell it and buy a new one
08:22<+glx>it's a real button
08:22<@Bjarni>you press that button and then it will try to replace everything in the depot
08:22<Betalord>I clicked too, nothing happened
08:22<@Bjarni>make sure that you have enough money and all that
08:22<+glx>and it doesn't renew, but replace
08:22<@Bjarni>and that you set up replace for the engine in question
08:22<Betalord>yeah, money's no a problem. 200 million will do? ;)
08:22<Betalord>aha, how do I set up a replacement?
08:23<+glx>in vehicle list
08:23<@Bjarni>200 million is not really a useful info as it lacks the info about currency and if you set up some obscene autorenew money setting
08:23<+glx>manage list, replace
08:23<Betalord>(I thought it would just replace it with the same model, just that it's new)
08:23<Betalord>let me check
08:23<@Bjarni> <Betalord> (I thought it would just replace it with the same model, just that it's new) <-- this is what it will NOT do ;)
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08:25<Betalord>ok again, where can I set up a replacement?
08:25<Betalord>can't find any button or anything anywhere
08:25<+glx>open vehicle list
08:25<Betalord>in the hanger?
08:26<+glx>no in the toolbar
08:26<Betalord>the plane button, bottom right?
08:26<Betalord>ah, moment
08:26<Betalord>ah, found it: manage list -> replace vehicles
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08:27<@Bjarni>glx: you need to be quicker to point to the wiki
08:27<dihedral>Rubidium: [14:20] <dihedral> max_ships = 0 a and i was just offered a hovercraft :-)
08:27<dihedral>is that normal :-)
08:27<dihedral>or is that intended?
08:27<@Bjarni>a hovercraft is not a ship as it's ON the water, not IN the water :P
08:27<@Bjarni>however the game don't know that difference
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08:28<dihedral>and out of which depot does it come
08:28<+glx>dihedral: you can't buy it but it's not a problem for the game
08:28<@Bjarni>ship depot
08:28<dihedral>and how many can you build if max_ships is set to 0
08:28<dihedral>glx: i would not have thought it were a prob to the game
08:28<dihedral>it's just missleading
08:28<dihedral>and not very nice
08:29<+glx>well, make a patch to prevent it ;)
08:29<@Bjarni>you have an autosave from just before it happened
08:29<@Bjarni>keep it
08:29<@Bjarni>so you can test
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08:29<@Bjarni>by keeping, I mean move it elsewhere so it's not overwritten
08:30<Betalord>Bjarni, how does this work though? Does it replace all vehicles of that type, or just too old ones, or can you even controle which individual vehicles to replace?
08:30<dihedral>i do ...
08:30<@Bjarni>Betalord: all of them
08:30<+glx>but you can prevent some groups to be replaced
08:31<@Bjarni>globally next time they enter a depot (or if they are already in a depot and you click the button)
08:31<Betalord>Bjarni, that is not very useful though
08:31<Betalord>I want to replace just the ones that are too old etc.
08:31<+glx>there's autorenew for that
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08:31<Betalord>oh, where's that? :)
08:32<+glx>in patches option
08:32<Betalord>aha found that option. How does it work? When vehicle gets old is gets to hangar automatically and new one is bought?
08:33<Betalord>ok this is not what I'm looking for either, I don't want some old outdated models to get replaced by the same outdated models, I want to have some control over it
08:34<+glx>use autoreplace for outdated->newer
08:34<@Bjarni>updated that wiki page
08:35<@Bjarni>somebody wrote something incorrectly :(
08:35<+glx>autorenew for old->new (same type)
08:35<@Bjarni>please reload
08:36<Betalord>ok, I still don't get it - how can I make use of the "Autoreplace all aircraft in the hangar" button?
08:36<@Bjarni>say you have a plane of type A in the hangar
08:37<@Bjarni>and you want it to be type B
08:37<@Bjarni>then you set up autoreplace so A->B
08:37<Betalord>in vehicles list, you mean?
08:37<@Bjarni>and then you press the button to activate that replace rule on all aircraft in the hangar
08:37<@Bjarni><Bjarni> then you set up autoreplace so A->B <-- in the autoreplace window, which is opened from the vehicle list
08:38<Betalord>yes I've got that set up, but the button in hangar still doesn't do anything
08:38<@Bjarni>then you did something wrong :P
08:38<Betalord>should I enable "Start replacing vehicles" in that vehicle list?
08:38<@Bjarni>do as the wiki tell you to do
08:38<Betalord>because last time that I clicked that, it replaced ALL of myy planes of that type, which is NOT what I want
08:39<@Bjarni>autoreplace is a tool to use when you want to replace a whole lot of one type to another one
08:39<@Bjarni>it's actually not really designed to replace just a single vehicle
08:39<+glx>it's a global replacement but using groups you can prevent unwanted replacements
08:40<+glx>(nightly feature)
08:40<Betalord>ok I guess I'm doing something wrong
08:40<Betalord>my goal: to replace aircrafts in the hanger with new ones
08:40<Betalord>what I did:
08:40<Betalord>went to vehicle list, then manage list -> replace vehicles
08:41<Betalord>selected the type that I want to replace on left pane, selected type B on right pane
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08:41<Betalord>now 2 different scenarios:
08:41<Betalord>a) I clicked "start replacing vehicles". That replaced ALL of my planes of that type, which is not what I want at all
08:42<+glx>that is how it is supposed to work
08:42<Betalord>b) I didn't click the replace button, but I did set up type B on the right pane. I went to hangar where I had a plane of type A parked, and clicked "Autoreplace all aircraft in hangar". Nothing happened
08:42<@Bjarni>this is how it's supposed to work
08:43<Betalord>now my question is, how do I replace that plane in the hangar with new plane?*
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08:43<@Bjarni>as I said: it's designed to work on a whole lot of vehicles, not just a single one
08:43<Betalord>(withouth selling it and buying a new one)
08:43<@Bjarni>you can't, unless you mess with vehicle groups
08:43<@Bjarni>selling and buying a new one is likely faster
08:43<+glx>in nightlies you can group vehicules and protect them against global replacements
08:44<Betalord>ok, then tell me what does the "Autoreplace all vehicles in hangar" button do? Beceuse it doesn't do anything in my case
08:44<+glx>autoreplace is done when vehicle enter in depot
08:44<@Bjarni>normally autoreplace trigger one vehicles once they enter a depot. If your depot is full of that type of vehicle when you start to replace, you can hit that button to replace everything inside
08:45<@Bjarni>otherwise you would have to make all of them leave and return to replace them
08:45<Betalord>hm I don't understand
08:45<@Bjarni>that's basically the only use I can find for this button, but people requested it, so I made it
08:46<Betalord>why would such a button be needed if autoreplacement is done automatically anyway?
08:46<@Bjarni>most of the time it's not needed
08:46<+glx>because autoreplacement is not done if the vehicle is already stopped in depot
08:46<@Bjarni>but imagine this
08:47<Betalord>ok anyway, my suggestion is this: make it so that upon clicking on this button all the planes parked in the hanger are replaced with new ones, according to rules set in "autoreplace list"
08:47<skidd13>My current openttd binary segfaults sometimes when autosave :(
08:47<@Bjarni>you stopped say 10 vehicles in the depot, then you set replace for them, hit the replace button and stop the replace setting in the autoreplace window
08:47<@Bjarni>skidd13: that's bad
08:47<@Bjarni>what OS?
08:47<+glx>bad chars?
08:47<skidd13>Bjarni: Debian Linux
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08:48<@Bjarni>the OSX port had an autosave issue. It was due to letters like ä, but I think unicode got rid of this for good
08:49<skidd13>The problem is that the autosave works as normal quite a long time and then suddenly bang.
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08:49<+glx>maybe a NULL dereference in saveload code
08:49<@Bjarni>btw ä is a bad letter not to be able to use as the savegame by default also includes the name of the month
08:49<@Bjarni>skidd13: play in a debugger to figure out why it dies
08:50<@Bjarni>would be nice to know which line it dies in
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08:55<Phazorx>are there any NI crucial changes since last nighty?
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08:56<skidd13>The stange thing is, it happens from time to time, I noticed it after the NewIndustries got in, but I can't really reproduce.
08:57<skidd13>That's what I got in the console.
08:57<skidd13>"Laden des Spieles fehlgeschlagen" = "Savegame loading aborted"
08:57<skidd13>"Spielstandsdatei defekt" = "savegame corrupted" - Invalid chunk size
08:57<TrueBrain>out of diskspace?
08:57<skidd13>Hmm, still 3,8 GB free
09:01<skidd13>If I notice it again I'll tell you
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09:03<TrueBrain>idiotic Windows Media Encoder... it doesn't output a thing :s
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09:03<Phazorx>hmm... 11218 doesnt want to compile with AI bug
09:03<Phazorx>In file included from /home/ottdcoop/svn-devserver/src/ai/ai.cpp:5:
09:03<Phazorx>/home/ottdcoop/svn-devserver/src/ai/../variables.h:243: error: expected unqualified-id before '<<' token
09:04<+glx>search for <<<< and >>>> in this file
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09:05<Phazorx>$ cat src/variables.h | grep "<<<"
09:05<Phazorx><<<<<<< .mine
09:05<+glx>that is a conflict marker
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09:06<Phazorx>and what do i do with that?
09:06<+glx>opent the file
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09:07<+glx>compare the lines in conflict and fix it
09:08<Phazorx>oh... some ancient patch i guess
09:17<@Bjarni>you will also get src/variables.h.* where * is rxxxx or mine... those should be deleted once you solved the conflict or svn will think that you still have it
09:17<+glx>just use "svn resolved src/variables.h"
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09:27<Phazorx>glx: there was a few patches i didnt know about applied
09:27<+glx>your problem ;)
09:27<Phazorx>i just cleaned them since theya re really outdated
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09:30<nStensen>hi all, im trying to start a dedicated server on a machine running gentoo, but I get this in the log: "dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed"
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09:32<+glx>nStensen: what did you set in server_bind_ip ?
09:32<nStensen>server_bind_ip =
09:32<nStensen>server_port = 3979
09:34<nStensen>wont that make it bind to all IPs?
09:34<+glx>you can use a local ip too
09:34<nStensen>hmm, it works now .. but I need it to bind to
09:35<nStensen>I want to run several openttd servers running on different IPs instead of different ports
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09:35<+glx>why do you need it to bind to the external one?
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09:36<nStensen>i'm not sure I follow .. could you define "external"? I have 18 IPs on this server, and I only openttd to listen on one of these atm
09:39<gfldex>nStensen: do you use any virtualization software on that machine?
09:41<nStensen>yes, it's running openvz (openttd is in a vps) .. but I dont see why it wouldnt work, because it works when running on a VPS running debian
09:42<gfldex>does openvz support linux capabilities?
09:48<nStensen>think I found it ;)
09:48<nStensen> after you found what's wrong with capabilities you can add missing capability to your VE with vzctl command.
09:50<nStensen>guess I need to add "NET_BIND_SERVICE" ?
09:50<gfldex>i dont know
09:50<gfldex>but you could try as well
09:50<Ailure>do we really need four diffrent newindustries threads in general? :)
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09:53<+glx>Amix: no need to put one way on all tiles
09:53<Amix>trams are cooool
09:53<Amix>glx: i know
09:53<Amix>but if i dont
09:53<Amix>the city will destroy the design
09:54<+glx>disable city growth
09:54<Amix>it will make crosses which i dont want it to make ;=)
09:54<Amix>glx: ? i want the city to grow
09:54<+glx>ha ok
09:55<nStensen>ahh:) now it works :)
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09:55<nStensen>thanks for you help folks ;)
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09:55<Amix>thats tram with its own track allmost
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10:13<Sionide>but why?
10:13<Sionide>Amix, why not just use the existing road and lay the tram on top of it?
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10:26<Ailure>[16:54] <Amix>
10:27<Ailure>this reminds me so about my Simcity 4 sessions :=
10:27<Ailure>with one-way roads, avenues and highways
10:28<Amix>Sionide: because tram isnt a good tram on roads
10:28<Ailure>I use them alot in Simcity4
10:28<Ailure>but hardly in openTTD
10:28<hylje>imma gonna open a bunch of tickets for sc4 features on ottd
10:29<hylje>Ailure: ottd revolves around trains and tracks, simcity around roads and vehicles
10:29<Ailure>some dosen't translate as well to ottd
10:29<Ailure>well yeah
10:29<Amix>Ailure: nice
10:29<Ailure>roads have no traffic other than trucks and buses
10:29<Ailure>in OTTD
10:29<hylje>ottd needs private traffic
10:29<Ailure>but in Simcity4 there's all kind of automobiles
10:30<Ailure>there's a lack of cars on thoose pictures
10:30<Ailure>probably becuse I paused the game right away and then zoomed in
10:30<Amix>i know
10:30<Ailure>there's usually tons of cars there
10:30<Ailure>it's high-traffic parts of my road network :P
10:30<hylje>how does one build arbitrary bridges on sc?
10:31<Ailure>the ones on the screenshot
10:31<Ailure>was built with the help of a networkaddonmod
10:31<hylje>do they really work?
10:31<Ailure>even in somewhat sucky u-drive-it mode
10:31<Amix>now i create this
10:32<Ailure>...oh yeah there's a avenue with a tram track in the middle for that mod too
10:32<hylje>trams in my simcity?
10:32<Ailure>in this mod
10:32<Ailure>also called lightrail
10:32<Ailure>says lightrail/tram in the game :P
10:33<hylje>when i get around to my ttd clone
10:33<hylje>ill do that and go towards simcity when it comes to cities
10:33<SpComb>forget your TTD clone and svn co myottd :(
10:33<SpComb>it's the new SpBot
10:34<SpComb>SpBot was out of #tycoon for a week before anyone noticed
10:34<SpComb>or at least before anyone bothered to tell me
10:34<hylje>so what does myottd need
10:34<hylje>for development and features
10:34<Amix>Ailure: i am running openttd on morphos
10:34<Amix>so i dont have simcity4 here
10:34<SpComb>something along the lines of a feature-set compareable to autopilot
10:35<SpComb>and then other things as needed
10:35<SpComb>e.g. I got eis_os to create an XML-based API for GRF Crawler which I plan on using for some kind of NewGRF thing
10:36<hylje>svn: Client error in parsing arguments
10:36<SpComb>svn co svn://
10:36<Ailure>[17:33] <Amix> Ailure: i am running openttd on morphos
10:36<Ailure>[17:33] <Amix> so i dont have simcity4 here
10:36<Ailure>[17:33] <Amix> ;)
10:36<Ailure>heh shame
10:36<Ailure>Simcity 4 is limited for Windows and any platform that Wine runs on
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10:36<Ailure>it runs faster in Wine than Windows according to most reports xD
10:40<hylje>SpComb: so what else do i need?
10:40<SpComb>, that is
10:40<SpComb>in terms of dependancies, now?
10:40<Amix>Ailure: simcity4 exsists for osx
10:40<Ailure>I heard that version is rather quirky though
10:40<Ailure>with addons
10:40<hylje>mac ports of games fail when it comes to modding
10:40<hylje>in general
10:40<Ailure>well it works
10:40<Ailure>but any added buildings
10:40<Ammller>we have set up a NewIndustrie Server with PBI, if someone like to join:
10:40<Ailure>won't have nightlits working
10:40<Ailure>since the game have a day->night shift
10:40<hylje>ive played the game
10:40<SpComb>well, python, twisted, pylons/paster, sqlalchemy should get you quite far along
10:40<hylje>20 MB of new packages
10:40<hylje>oh, just 2MB
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 06 10:47:54 2007
---Logopened Sat Oct 06 10:47:56 2007
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10:47|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 96 |-| +op [5] |-| +voice [3] |-| normalnych [88]
10:49|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 92 sekundy
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10:51|-|Netsplit <-> quits: plaes, CIA-4, izhirahider, Phazorx, mikegrb, Tefad, Wolf01
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10:55<Amix>a nice game would be GTA:Norway
10:56[~]SpComb is now afk
10:59<SpComb>not actually
11:00<SpComb>hylje: oh, and postgresql as well, including psycopg2 and pypgsql (yes, both :P), I just commited a database dump as db_2.sql
11:00|-|Greyscale [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:00<SpComb>we're still waiting for one player to join...
11:01|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
11:04<hylje>oh god these dependencies
11:04<hylje>now does this thing come with a server?
11:05|-|mikegrb_ Your nick is now mikegrb
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11:12<Sacro>rail_cmd.cpp doesn't appear in solution explorer
11:13<hylje>submit a patch
11:13<Sacro>no :p
11:13[~]Sacro prods glx
11:13<Sacro>441MB download D:
11:14<+glx>look in Landscape subsection
11:15<Sacro>so it is :)
11:15<Sacro>23 mins on dx_sdk...
11:15<Sacro>twiddles thumbs
11:16<Sacro>and MSDNAA is down :(
11:17<Sacro>only 7 warnings
11:17<Sacro>not bad considering i don't have DXSDK or
11:20<Sacro>*starts ripping the signalling section to shreds*
11:25<SpComb>hylje: a server for what?
11:26<SpComb>and yes, it does have a fair amount of dependancies, it's really meant to be run centrally...
11:26<hylje>am i supposed to run apache to poke on it?
11:26<SpComb>paster serve --reload development.ini
11:27<SpComb>and daemon/
11:27<SpComb>but the game continues -->
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11:51|-|nairan changed nick to mcbane
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11:58<Sacro>norudge :(
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12:00|-|mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
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12:12<Sacro>glx: getting freetype errors :(
12:12<Sacro>no gnuwin32
12:12<+glx>gnuwin32 libs are mingw ones
12:13<Sacro>and that probably won't work :p
12:13<Sacro>someone should remove the link to them from the wiki page
12:13<+glx>gcc can use .lib from msvc but the opposite fails ;)
12:13<Amix>my tramroutes :)
12:13<Sacro>still 8 unresolved externals
12:14<+glx>what are the missing symbols?
12:15<Sacro>__imp_@FT_{Done_Face@4, LOAD_CHAR@12, Init_FreeType@4, Select_Charmap@8, New_Face@16, Render_Glyph@8, Set_Pixel_Sizes@12}
12:17<+glx>with useful-1.2 ?
12:19<Sacro>extracted include and lib
12:19<Sacro>into a folder which i then pointed VS at
12:20<+glx>I don't know then
12:22<Sacro>do i need to compile anything for freetype
12:22<Sacro>i see a lsn
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12:26<Sacro>glx: it works fine when you paste them into the VC folder :s
12:26<+glx>I have them in VC folder :)
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12:33<SquireJames>hello people
12:34<SquireJames>looking for a kind soul who can help me solve some of my compiling woes
12:35<SquireJames>I'm using BuildOTTD and I'm trying to add the routemarkers patch to the latest nightly, so I can Pikkas Industries and routemarkers
12:35<SquireJames>but, it just complains that the compile has failed, I can't seem to find any logs of why
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12:44<SquireJames>right, okay, no answer, okay go simpler. Firstly, does the latest nightly r11208 hve newhouses support
12:45<Sacro>most people tend to use a proper compiler
12:45<Ailure>newhouses been in for a long long time now
12:45<SquireJames>Hmm, I wonder why TTRS is having trouble then
12:45<SquireJames>it seems to function, the new houses and roads appear, but in the newgrf menu it says disabled
12:45<SquireJames>and as soon as i click apply or try and add any new grf, it seems to realise that its disabled and the towns return to normal
12:46<Sacro>i have a PPC2003 emulator :\
12:46|-|Phazorx [] has joined #openttd
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12:47<Ammller>SquireJames: just did a screen with newindustries:
12:47|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
12:48<toresbe>I like how the mines are over the tunnel
12:48|-|SquireJames [RobertPalf@] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
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12:49<Sacro>oops :)
12:49<SquireJames>Whoops, i clicked the link and it logged me out
12:49<Ammller>yeah, hopefully, they don't dig more there
12:49<Sacro>Belugas: you around?
12:49<SquireJames>Could you perchance repost it?
12:49<SquireJames>and do we have any idea why TTRS is suddenly throwing a fit?
12:51<SquireJames>I see from the screenie, you have TTRS working
12:52<Desolator>I queried you
12:52|-|Desolator [~Desolator@] has quit [Quit: I'm out for now]
12:55<Sacro>i need to find out how to convert blender to grf
12:55<Sacro>or ldraw to grf
12:55|-|Desolator [Desolator@] has joined #openttd
12:55<Sacro>or maybe pov-ray to grf
12:57[~]Desolator slaps SquireJames around a bit with a large trout
12:57<TrueBrain>Sacro: good luck :)
12:57<Sacro>TrueBrain: why?
12:58<Sacro>i have all the rails done
12:58<SquireJames>sorry bck
12:58<Sacro>and the roads
12:58<+glx>Desolator: did you see my post in ChrisIN thread?
12:59<+glx>your win9x build is not a win9x build
12:59<Desolator>blame that on MinGW
12:59<+glx>no you didn't configure correctly
13:00<Desolator>I followed the wiki article
13:00<+glx>it is not up to date
13:01<+glx>you should do "configure --disable-unicode"
13:01<Desolator>ok, i'll compile againb
13:03<Desolator>btw what's CLI?
13:03<Ailure>command line interface
13:03<Ailure>compare it with GUI
13:03<Desolator>"or directly "make bundle_zip" (if you have zip CLI installed)"
13:03<Ailure>which is graphical user interface
13:03<Sacro>we got asked "What is a CLE"
13:04<Desolator>well glx, what do you mean there?
13:04<TrueBrain>that WinZip doesn't do it
13:04<Sacro> hehe
13:05<TrueBrain>lol @ Sacro
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13:05<Desolator>TrueBrain: ok you confused me even more
13:05<TrueBrain>Desolator: WinZip == GUI
13:05<TrueBrain>zip.exe == CLI
13:05<Desolator>LMAO @ Sacro
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13:06<Desolator>I guess I'll zip up it myself
13:07<Desolator>(using IzArc, who wants to pay for something that's worse than a freeware app?)
13:07<Sacro>windows users?
13:07<Desolator>and linux too
13:08<Desolator>(though I'm starting to kill Windoze & M$)
13:10<Ailure>,%2024th%20Aug%201933.png :)
13:10<Ailure>I love the mess I wind up with sometimes
13:10<Amix>growing now
13:11<Ailure>,%2029th%20Jan%201929.png the way the steel mill works in PBI made things quite more challanging
13:11<Ailure>ah yeah
13:11<Ailure>that town form earlier
13:14<SquireJames>I have to say, all of Pikkas work really makes OTTD for me
13:15<SquireJames>UKRS, PBI, Brickchain, all brilliant and very British feeling
13:16<Ailure>they go together well with the rest of the graphics too :P
13:16<SquireJames>my only wish is that the roads on the industries could somehow be overidden with the TTRS roads
13:16<SquireJames>but i can overlook them :) hmm i wonder if i can override the roads on TTRS with the UK Roadset?
13:17<Ailure>heh I usually use TTRS
13:17<Ailure>but I skipped TTRS this game for some reason
13:18<dihedral>i want a newIndu game
13:18<SquireJames>hmm no luck overriding, ah well
13:19|-|simon_ [] has joined #openttd
13:19<simon_>hello punks
13:19<simon_>the music is blasting crazy here at Tsim Sha Tsui
13:20<TrueBrain>@kick simon_ bye
13:20|-|simon_ kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [bye]
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13:20<SquireJames>this may sound odd
13:20<SquireJames>but why kick him? Is he a troublemaker?
13:20<simon_>hmm, what was that for?
13:20<dihedral>how do i make use of newindustries ?
13:20<mcbane>never greet someone with hello punks. =D
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13:20<SquireJames>dihedral, you will need some grf sets
13:20<Desolator>you download a nightly and use a newindustries grf
13:20<TrueBrain>at least mcbane gets it
13:21<SquireJames>either ECS, or if your a brit or like british things, go for PBI
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13:21<SquireJames>they may work together, i'm not sure if they cause some interesting conflictions
13:21<simon_>I got too many wifi networks here
13:21<mcbane>ecs is fun
13:21<Ailure>Probably try ECS after I played with PBI
13:22<simon_>I am in the main nightclub area of tsim sha tsui
13:22<Desolator>We need 0.6!
13:22<simon_>this place is awake all night
13:22<mcbane>but use low industries as there will be a lot on the map (high = colorful map)
13:22<simon_>the only time it is quiet is in between 6:30-9AM
13:22<Desolator>simon_: so?
13:23<mcbane>its 20:23 here =)
13:23<simon_>its 2:23AM here
13:23<simon_>and there is a traffic jam outside
13:23<simon_>through out the whole day there is not traffic jams
13:24<simon_>only after 1AM do they start
13:24<simon_>they end around 4AM
13:24<Ailure>[20:21] <mcbane> but use low industries as there will be a lot on the map (high = colorful map)
13:24<simon_>I got some labels I need to remove from boxes
13:24<Ailure>heh I forgot to do this for PBI, and ECS seems to have more industries
13:24<simon_>any one got any ideas?
13:24<Ailure>it got little cluttered around some towns
13:25<Desolator>what labels & what boxes?
13:25<Ailure>but the industries close down on their own after awhile so oh well :p
13:25<simon_>Desolator: cardboard boxes and paper labels
13:25<Desolator>good luck
13:26<mcbane>ailure: a lot more =P
13:26<simon_>Desolator: you don't know of any magic alcohol that will not ruin the box but get the paper off?
13:27<simon_>I am using a pocket knife to get under the paper and left it up but it is very slow and I poked a hole in the box once already
13:29<Desolator>glx: ok done
13:29<Amix>OTTD is so cool
13:29<Amix>i love it
13:29<TrueBrain>we glad you do Amix :)
13:30<Desolator>We'd love it more if you could announce an estimated release date of 0.6 RC1 ;)
13:30<TrueBrain>@kick Desolator When It Is Done
13:30|-|Desolator kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [When It Is Done]
13:30<TrueBrain>damn, that felt good
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13:31[~]TrueBrain hugs Desolator
13:31<Desolator>I said *estimated*...
13:31[~]Desolator warns TrueBrain that he doesn't really love stupid kicks
13:32<TrueBrain>Desolator: it wasn't stupid, so that is a plus
13:32<Desolator>it was
13:32<TrueBrain>you are free to have your opinion :)
13:32<simon_>TrueBrain: come on... don't do that to people
13:32<Prof_Frink>Desolator: Between a minute and a century.
13:32<simon_>I know it is fun
13:32<Desolator>it would have been easier to type it directly and less annoying for me
13:33<simon_>but you miss out on the channel which gets annoying
13:33<TrueBrain>Desolator: but don't worry, it isn't personal: I kcik everyone asking for a release date, with that very same message
13:33<Desolator>Prof_Frink: kinda...long...
13:33<TrueBrain>I should add it to DorpsGek...
13:33<Amix>also thank for morphos support :) as osnews person wrote. its something special with amigaos thats so different from other operating systems which is necessary to bring on into the future.
13:33<TrueBrain>Amix: you use MorphOS?!?!?! :P
13:33<Desolator>never heard of it
13:33<TrueBrain>wow, that I experience that in my life...
13:34<TrueBrain>a person who really uses the MorphOS version...
13:34<Amix>there are some
13:34<Amix>but not as active as me telling that
13:34<TrueBrain>Clearly :)
13:34[~]TrueBrain hugs Amix :)
13:35<simon_>I use much more than morphos
13:37<TrueBrain>Amix: does the nightly also still work on MorphOS?
13:38<Amix>this is nightly with trams ;)
13:38<Desolator>TrueBrain, why did you left "mainstrea" dev?
13:38|-|Greyscale [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:38<TrueBrain>Amix: cool :)
13:38<TrueBrain>Desolator: keep trying :p
13:39<TrueBrain>Desolator: and I did? I can't remember if I did ot nor did, I confuse myself :(
13:39<Desolator>well I barely see you commiting to SVN
13:39|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
13:40<Desolator>btw, any dev on Windoze here?
13:40|-|toresbe [] has joined #openttd
13:41<TrueBrain>Desolator: last commit was just 21 days ago... didn't know you are degreded that fast in this community :p
13:43|-|Desolator [Desolator@] has quit [Quit: out to do homework]
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13:45<Amix>TrueBrain: i am using morphos, macosx, win2k and symbian daily
13:45<Amix>love all of them
13:45<Amix>openttd on mos and osx
13:45<TrueBrain>hehe :) Good choices ;)
13:45<Amix>win2k only at work
13:45<Noldo>I don't love this XP I'm forced to use
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13:46<Amix>if BeOS did well, BeOS could be a hero os :)
13:48<@Bjarni>maybe it is a hero OS
13:48<TrueBrain>now I need to remember my Steam password :(
13:48<@Bjarni>after all there are very few heroes and very few BeOS users
13:49<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: the key (or password if you like) is to add coal in an even load (not a pile in the middle) and you will do fine ;)
13:52<Amix>Bjarni: well.. BeOS had potential
13:53<@Bjarni>that's likely, but odds that it will get though today are... well not in the BeOS favour
13:55<Amix>its kinda ironic that the slowest oses survive
13:56<toresbe>no it isn't... they're harder to shut down
13:56<toresbe>"oh, screw it, I'll just stick with Windows..."
13:56<Noldo>the OS race has never been about technical superiority
13:57|-|Rafagd [~kvirc@] has joined #openttd
13:57<Amix>its the gamers that have pushed hardware producers
13:57<Noldo>but I wonder how much resources does it take to "keep an OS alive"
13:57<TrueBrain>MorphOS is still alive
13:57<Amix>Noldo: you need a community, a trusted company etc
13:58<Amix>community can survive without company though
13:58<Amix>but its hard
13:58<@Bjarni>you don't need a trusted company
13:58<@Bjarni>look at some linux distributions
13:58<Amix>well, linux is open sourced
13:58<Amix>i thought we talked about commercial oses
13:59<Rafagd>anyone has a link to the video of that dude who drives a box? o.o
14:00<Amix>TrueBrain: MorphOS is alive because there are bunch of hardcore Amiga fanatics which loves it. Its only alive because of its community thru forum, irc and the web. I bet that without the net, AmigaOS, MorphOS and all minor oses would die much quicker. So you could say that Internet is pretty much a hero for small oses :)
14:00<TrueBrain>yup :)
14:01<Amix>just look at
14:01<@Bjarni>I don't think OpenTTD would be anything without the internet either
14:01<Amix>how many hates Amiga Inc.
14:01<Amix>but they stick to their oses, because thats what others have
14:02<mcbane>i hate them for beeing sold to stupid ppls.
14:03<Amix>read this
14:03<Amix>its for amiga community
14:03<Amix>and then you read the comments
14:03<Amix>from the CEO of Amiga Inc.
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14:08<Amix>updated the system
14:08|-|Amix [] has quit [Quit: Shake it, .. sjokoladedrikk ;D]
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14:19<TrueBrain>Today sucks
14:19<TrueBrain>I tried like 10 things
14:19<TrueBrain>and they all failed
14:20<TrueBrain>I wanted to convert a x264 to wmv3(VC1), but it failed to do what it was supposed to do (Windows Media Encoder)
14:20<TrueBrain>I am trying to install Steam, but both Cedega as Wine don't feel like it
14:20<TrueBrain>I am trying to disassemble a DOS application and recompile it
14:20<TrueBrain>but it doesn't let me
14:32<huma>use the force
14:33<Rubidium>TrueBrain: could ofcourse break the negative thingy...
14:34<Rubidium>you could try to get kicked from #openttd ;)
14:34<TrueBrain>@kick TrueBrain be kicked
14:34|-|TrueBrain kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [be kicked]
14:34|-|TrueBrain [truelight@] has joined #openttd
14:34<TrueBrain>and, deos it help?
14:34<Rubidium>don't know, the negative spiral has at least been broken ;)
14:34<Rubidium>now you've tried 11 things and not all failed
14:35<SmatZ>TrueBrain: what DOS app are you trying to disassemble?
14:37<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: why would you disassemble populous and then recompile it?
14:37<@Bjarni>are you gaining anything that DosBox can't do?
14:37<TrueBrain>Bjarni: because I want to
14:37<Rafagd>where you've find it?
14:37<@Bjarni>fair enough
14:37<@Bjarni>that's reason enough
14:37<TrueBrain>Rafagd: abandonware of course
14:37<Rafagd>i've only seen that game 1 time
14:38<Rafagd>i've ever wanted to play that game =(
14:38<@Bjarni>it rocks
14:39<@Bjarni>I still have it for my Amiga 500
14:39<@Bjarni>that is, if the disk still works
14:41<Sacro>another 500 owner
14:41<@Bjarni>networking with Amiga 500 was kind of cool, but not really useful
14:41<@Bjarni>I can't remember anything good MP networking games
14:42<@Bjarni>stuntcar racer worked on network, but besides that
14:44<TrueBrain>grr, stupid cedega
14:52|-|De_Ghost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:52<simon_>what new features have been added to the nightly in the past month and half that I have been away partying?
14:53|-|De_Ghost [] has joined #openttd
14:53<simon_>any info about what that is?
14:53<simon_>wiki page?
14:53<Rubidium>hmm, glx must be talking to someone I'm ignoring
14:54<Rubidium>or that is at least the most logical explanation of his sudden "newindustries"
14:58<@Bjarni>the question is who
14:58<@Bjarni>because I also only see the "newindustries" line
14:58<simon_>Rubidium: you still remember who I am!
14:58<simon_>It has been more than a month!
14:58<+glx>he can't see what you say
14:59<simon_>I am back in Hong Kong now
14:59<@Bjarni>one can only imagine this conversation based on what glx says
14:59<simon_>glx: yes he can... he just pretends he can't.
14:59<@Bjarni>ok, cleared the ignore list
14:59<@Bjarni>what's going on?
15:00<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
15:00[~]Bjarni wonders why simon_ was on ignore
15:00<TrueBrain>Bjarni: I suggest you put him on ignore again
15:00<TrueBrain>really, a good idea
15:01<simon_>Bjarni: I don't know... I haven't been here for months
15:01<simon_>maybe someone else uses this nick
15:01<@Bjarni>oh now I remember you
15:01[~]Bjarni reenables ignore
15:02<@Bjarni>we are being nice to him, right :P
15:03<simon_>you never ignored me all those months ago when we were friends
15:03<simon_>you people are cruel
15:04<hylje>bjarni is
15:04<@Bjarni>is what?
15:04<Sacro>how would i go from a rending to a grf :(
15:04<TrueBrain>Bjarni: just: you are
15:05<@Bjarni>fair enough
15:05<@Bjarni>I am something :D
15:05<@Bjarni>I just don't know what it is
15:05[~]hylje snickers
15:06<@Bjarni>I bet simon_ said something stupid again
15:06[~]Bjarni disables ignore
15:06<simon_>I have said nothing
15:06<simon_>I am trying to work
15:07<TrueBrain>Bjarni: please spear us the details of your ignore-list
15:07|-|simon_ [] has left #openttd []
15:07<@Bjarni>simon_: why did I put you on ignore ages ago?
15:07<hylje>TrueBrain, s/ear/are/
15:07<@Bjarni>I guess he won't answer me
15:07<+glx>oh he's gone :(
15:07<@Bjarni>looks like it
15:08<@Bjarni>PARTY TIME
15:09<hylje>i'm reading pbf and seeing the sillyness here
15:09<hylje>what a great night
15:10<@Bjarni>what is pbf?
15:10<@Bjarni>some sort of mirror plane of pdf?
15:11<Amix>i see there are demonstrations in Denmark again Bjarni
15:11<Amix>it will never end
15:11<@Bjarni>I'm at home
15:11<@Bjarni>I'm not there
15:12<@Bjarni>and I never will be
15:12<@Bjarni>last I heard on the news was that they arrested 300 people
15:14<@Bjarni>and a political party encouraged the bullies to move on even when told to stop
15:14<@Bjarni>so it will be interesting to see what happens next
15:14<@Bjarni>political parties aren't allowed to tell people to ignore direct orders from the police
15:19|-|Grey [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:20<@Bjarni>you said that
15:20<@Bjarni>I didn't
15:20<@Bjarni>I just thought it ;)
15:24<Amix>this is so cool :)))
15:24<Amix>ASTRA promovideo from 1990
15:24<Amix>love the music ;)
15:28<Sacro>we can do ottd models with lightwave?
15:33<huma>yes, make pretty models
15:34<Sacro>i can do em in ldraw
15:34<Sacro>just no way of rendering them into the game
15:34<Sacro>cos i dunno how to use blender, povray or lightwave
15:35<huma>eh.. 90s
15:35<huma>i want time machine
15:36<@Bjarni>back then you could build your own decoder without any problems
15:36<@Bjarni>now those bastards use digital encryption so a simple setup of capacitors and resistors can't fix signal anymore
15:37<@Bjarni>I once saw schematics for a circuit that could break any encoding (at that time)
15:38<@Bjarni>it had a variable resistor and all you had to do was to turn it until it cleared up the signal
15:38<@Bjarni>and then you hit the frequency they used to scramble the signal and you could watch all the stuff you like
15:38<@Bjarni>go figure why they changed that system :P
15:38<huma>i wish i was good at this stuff
15:39<@Bjarni>it's a thing of the past
15:39<huma>sounds fascinating
15:39<@Bjarni>well, that decoder is
15:39<TrueBrain>wow, djgpp seems to be able to cmopile for dos :)
15:39<TrueBrain>let's see..
15:40<Eddi|zuHause2><Bjarni> simon_: why did I put you on ignore ages ago? <- i have logs of "ages ago", are you really that interested?
15:40<huma>Bjarni: so you never touch your soldering iron now?
15:40<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: I remember now.. he is the guy, who claimed to be in Hong Kong using an .au domain and he didn't know shit about Hong Kong
15:41<@Bjarni>and he said all sorts of other silly stuff like that
15:41<@Bjarni>didn't know shit about Hong Kong either
15:41<huma>em.. you repeat yourself :)
15:41<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i remembered from his line "<simon_> I am back in Hong Kong now"
15:41<@Bjarni>huma: you do and you can make stuff that works... you just can't use it to break the modern ways of encoding pay channels
15:42<huma>maybe he was using the aussie proxy? :)
15:42<@Bjarni><huma> em.. you repeat yourself :) <-- that's on purpose. I use repetition to make sure that you remember what I try to tell you
15:42<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: no, now you go to the next best forum and get a key there
15:42<huma>Bjarni: well, at least you can still mock up useful or funny things
15:43<@Bjarni><huma> maybe he was using the aussie proxy? :) <-- no... he wasn't. He wasn't using is brain either
15:43<Eddi|zuHause2>to use with your player plugin
15:43<huma>Bjarni: ok, just don't use recursion :)
15:43<@Bjarni>player plugin?
15:44<huma>Bjarni: is there a good book on soldering simple stuff?
15:44<@Bjarni>I guess so
15:44<huma>Bjarni: guess it's never late to start
15:44<@Bjarni>but I have no need to read it... you see, I already know how to do this ;)
15:44<huma>Bjarni: you could be like a.. inspiration :)
15:45[~]Bjarni is an engineer in the field of electronics
15:45<huma>Bjarni: i suppose you haven't known it all your life :)
15:45<huma>Bjarni: recommend me some book :)
15:45<@Bjarni>that's tricky
15:46<@Bjarni>what do you want to make? :)
15:46<huma>yes, it is when you know too much about the field :)
15:46<huma>well.. something like this for a start.. wait, let me find the link..
15:47<@Bjarni>if you want to say make a device to check if all windows are closed in your house, then you wouldn't need to know about how to handle frequency filtering
15:47<huma>meow :)
15:47<@Bjarni>that is, unless you decide to actually use a certain frequency to avoid problems with static electricity and 50 Hz noise
15:48|-|svippery changed nick to svip
15:51<huma>i think he's gone to make one for his cat :)
15:51<@Bjarni>I don't have a cat
15:52<@Bjarni>you need a really quick shutter speed if this should work
15:52<huma>a dog will do
15:52<huma>or.. yourself :)
15:52<@Bjarni>you see, it's kind of hard to tell the cat to stand still while taking pictures
15:52<@Bjarni><huma> or.. yourself :) <-- why would I want a whole lot of pictures of IRC?
15:52<huma>i'm not sure this tiny camera has any means to control shutter speed :)
15:52<huma>yes, indeed
15:53<huma>you could call it a scrotcam though :)
15:56<huma>this cam makes good pictures:
15:56<@Bjarni>this camera is perfect
15:56<@Bjarni>really really great
15:56<huma>some even resemble loko - like this one: :)
15:57<huma>er.. lomo
15:57<Eddi|zuHause2>on trip 2, there's a "on the run" picture
15:58<@Bjarni>I can place it under the frame and record bogie movements while driving and it's not a big loss if the camera is lost
15:58<huma>yea, try it :)
15:58<@Bjarni>but it's too dangerous to place yourself at that location while driving ;)
16:01|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:06<@Bjarni>Big moment no. 1: attach the collar with the camera to the cat. The reaction was not very happy but finally accepted. Reality check passed :-)
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16:10<huma>yea, the guy is funny :)
16:11<Ammller>Cannot find user-level thread for LWP 32465: generic error
16:11<Ammller>thats the output of my dbg
16:11<Ammller>just continue?
16:14|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
16:14<@Bjarni>dammit, can't find any local dealer of VistaQuest
16:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11219 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (199 files in 17 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r11035:11218.
16:16<huma>Bjarni: try ebay
16:17<@Bjarni>nahh, I guess I will make somebody in Germany or UK send it to me
16:17<@Bjarni>I just need to find some fool... err... naive person with a visa card
16:22<ln->why don't you have one?
16:23<@Bjarni>I could
16:23<@Bjarni>but I'm too cheap to pay for getting one
16:23<@Bjarni>you see, I really rarely need it and they charge you an arm and a leg for just having it
16:24<@Bjarni>buying anything on the net inside the country allows me to use my debit card, which is almost free of fees (unlike visa)
16:24<ln->but how do you pay on itunes?
16:25<@Bjarni>also using a local card gives me better protection against fraught, both in the sense that it can only be used in Denmark and in the law
16:25<@Bjarni><ln-> but how do you pay on itunes? <-- I don't use iTune store. I rarely buy music anyway (which results in me listening to the same music again and again)
16:25<huma>ln-: there's soulseek for that :)
16:26<@Bjarni>is that some p2p?
16:26<@Bjarni>I don't use p2p to get music either
16:26<huma>music oriented
16:27<@Bjarni>it takes me say 10 minutes to get to a real music store and then I will avoid all that DMA crap
16:27|-|Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:27<@Bjarni>ok, maybe it can take 15 minutes, but still
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean DRM?
16:28<ln->Bjarni: just for comparison; i pay 20€ per year for a Visa.
16:28<@Bjarni>20... I think that's a bit cheaper than what I can get
16:29<@Bjarni>but if I only use it say twice a year, it will be an extra €10 on each purchase and if the purchases are like €16 each, then it's a fee that really matters
16:30<ln->with 20€ the per-month limit for purchases is 1000€.
16:30|-|Tefad_ changed nick to Tefad
16:30<ln->Bjarni: don't worry, when you have one, you just happen to order all fancy stuff from and others a lot more frequently.
16:30<@Bjarni>the limit isn't 1000€ if you don't have 1000€ :P
16:31<@Bjarni>I better not buy or anything else that fancy
16:31<@Bjarni>you see I don't have a job, so whenever I spend money I have to consider how to get more :(
16:32<Rubidium>the idea of a credit card is that you pay afterwards, so you don't need money at the moment of actually paying
16:32<@Bjarni>newsflash: if I don't have the money afterwards, then the problem is still there
16:33<ln->Bjarni: wrong, the limit _is_ 1000€ even if i don't have that much.
16:33<@Bjarni>besides they add fees for using money you don't have
16:33<Rubidium>Bjarni: true-ish
16:33|-|Rafagd [~kvirc@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:33<Rubidium>you can delay all paying with about a month
16:33<@Bjarni>wouldn't do me any good
16:33<Rubidium>effectively leaving you with the "pay" of month
16:33<Rubidium>*a month
16:34<@Bjarni>I would still need to find the cash somehow
16:34<Rubidium>get a proper job for a few hours in the week
16:34<ln->Bjarni: you can withdraw cash from an ATM with the credit card.
16:34<ln->problem solved.
16:34<@Bjarni>guys, you are missing the point
16:35<@Bjarni>if I don't have a visa card, then I don't have to spend money on it and I don't NEED the stuff it offers
16:36<ln->same applies for money.
16:36<@Bjarni>if I don't have [money], then I don't have to spend money on it and I don't NEED the stuff it offers?
16:36<@Bjarni>I guess I don't really need money as it is now
16:37<@Bjarni>but it does leave me without buying new stuff
16:38|-|Amix [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:40<ln->when are you switching to euros?
16:41<@Bjarni>we have a financial benefit from not using euros
16:41<Rubidium>he's still using pebbles
16:42<toresbe>Bjarni: Swede, or Brit? I'm guessing Swede...
16:42<@Bjarni>also technically our constitution prevents us from giving other countries the option of making certain financial decisions like the interest and inflation of our currency
16:42<ln->Bjarni: it's not about the financial benefit, it's about the treaties you have already signed.
16:42<ln->toresbe: don't insult him.
16:42<@Bjarni>we didn't sign anything telling us to use euro
16:43<toresbe>Sweden is in no way committed to switching to the Euro.
16:43<@Bjarni>we added an exception to the treaty telling that the euro part (and 3 other parts) don't include Denmark
16:43<ln->Bjarni: the finnish constitution stated that the monetary unit in finland is markka, and how much did that matter?
16:43<toresbe>Bjarni: Oh, Danish?
16:43|-|mikl_ [] has joined #openttd
16:43<toresbe>ln-: Constitutions can change.
16:43<toresbe>Here in Norway, ours just did, quite significantly
16:44<@Bjarni>besides it can be rather hard to find a qualified majority of the politicians to enable it when the population is against it
16:44<@Bjarni>qualified is like 5/6
16:45<@Bjarni>toresbe: what new stupid law did you add?
16:45<gfldex>you mean those 2 other contries that found a nice lumb of oil in north sea?
16:45<gfldex>no wonder why they dont want to be part of euro land
16:45<Sacro>ooh the north sea!
16:45<gfldex>oil prices are made in $
16:45<toresbe>Bjarni: didn't add anything. A deprecated law was removed.
16:45<@Bjarni>which one?
16:46<toresbe>it's a technicality referring to the separation of two houses of parliament that had been equivalent for near a century.
16:46<@Bjarni> <gfldex> oil prices are made in $ <-- I'm not talking about oil prices, though our oil reserves aren't any bad at the current prices
16:47<gfldex>you use nearly as much as you drig from the ground and it's getting less already
16:47<gfldex>you will have the euro very soonish :)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>in Hessen, they are afraid to try to remove the death penalty from the constitution
16:48<@Bjarni>it's more like if it goes bad in Germany, then Germany will have to use their financial tools to recover (the euro prohibits most of those tools, leaving in this case Germany in a poor situation). Being outside of the euro, the big countries to the south will not pull us down
16:48<toresbe>basically, the party representatives would decide on a law in one room, then cross the hallway and put the law into the Norwegian Law in a different "House" which hasn't been a different house since 1866
16:48<SquireJames>Can you have multiple track waypoints in OpenTTD
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>because of the possibility that the attempt might fail
16:48<@Bjarni>well, not as much. Germany is still a great export market
16:48|-|mikl_ [] has quit []
16:48<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: hessen has death penalty?
16:48<toresbe>Bjarni: The entire point of the EU was to fuse the European governments to such an extent that another European war was impossible.
16:48<@Bjarni>DKK is a stronger currency than EUR
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: federal law overrides that
16:48<SquireJames>at the moment i am using stations with non-stop, but it would be easier if i could have a multi-track waypoint
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>but technically, it's still in their constitution
16:49<ln->btw, the king of finland was the prince of hessen.
16:49<toresbe>Bjarni: that's a relatively absurd claim. The EUR is far stronger by force of inertia and versatility of commerce.
16:49<@Bjarni><toresbe> Bjarni: The entire point of the EU was to fuse the European governments to such an extent that another European war was impossible. <-- I think this is an odd argument. Everywhere else somebody tried to do that it ended in civil war
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, and the king of england was the duke of hannover
16:49<gfldex>a stronger currency is bad if you are an export oriented country, what germany is
16:50<gfldex>our economy dont really want a strong currency
16:50<toresbe>Hell, Germany is a larger exporter than China.
16:50<gfldex>yes you can have more then one SquireJames
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>in the 17th/18th century was very common for people to have titles in multiple countries
16:50<@Bjarni><toresbe> Bjarni: that's a relatively absurd claim. The EUR is far stronger by force of inertia and versatility of commerce. <-- stronger in the sense of being more stable and presumed stable in the future
16:50<toresbe>Bjarni: it's working quite well. The EU is a decent idea, and the world could do with Europe as a superpower.
16:51<SpComb>There's Amixii in the channel
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>that's why in the early days, it was called "King in Prussia", instead of "King of Prussia"
16:51<@Bjarni>the main problem is that EU is used for absurd ideas like making a law that prohibits selling cucumbers if they are too curved
16:51<gfldex>we dont want to be a super power. it would mean we would have to fuck up other ppl
16:51<gfldex>that is not our intent
16:52<SquireJames>How do I make one gfldex
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>because the guy had titles in a dozen more countries
16:52<gfldex>you should have a button for creating waypoints in the track toolbar
16:52<@Bjarni>the problem is that the EU structure isn't stable
16:52<toresbe>Bjarni: consumer interest laws are a Good Thing, even though their minutae are debatable.
16:52<@Bjarni>specially not after adding even more countries
16:52<SquireJames>Everytime I place a waypoint next to another it becomes a new waypoint, regardless as to whether there join stations is on
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g he was "Kurfürst in Brandenburg"
16:52<gfldex>it seams to work out quite well Bjarni
16:53<SquireJames>What I am after is making a waypoint go across multiple tracks
16:53<toresbe>Bjarni: We Norwegians are very happy about Poland being added. We are starved for a workforce.
16:53<gfldex>the problems of low price markets in the east solved itself
16:53<gfldex>they got the same prices and payments as we do now
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>they then agglomerated more and more territories through titles
16:53<@Bjarni><toresbe> Bjarni: consumer interest laws are a Good Thing, even though their minutae are debatable. <-- didn't help us at all. In fact if leaves people in Denmark in a bit worse position if something breaks after say 8 months and you want warranty to fix it
16:53<gfldex>i think you cant do that SquireJames
16:54<toresbe>gfldex: the hell they do
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>(including east prussia, which was a very outer territory)
16:54<SquireJames>ah, well okays, i'll stick to my non-stop station method then
16:54<toresbe>gfldex: which is why we can hire construction workers for pennies to the building here in Norway
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>only much later the called the whole country prussia
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>then it was changed to "King of Prussia"
16:54<@Bjarni> <gfldex> it seams to work out quite well Bjarni <-- not really... whenever something important comes up, then they can't agree
16:55<gfldex>that was that constitution problem with poland and that was a press problem. that does not apply to day by day business
16:55<gfldex>hot air doenst count even in the EU :)
16:56<gfldex>toresbe: that's true but the money is leaving your country and get's exchanged into their currency and thus your whole economy get's a los
16:56<@Bjarni>btw EU is trying to force Denmark to change a law that says that only people who worked in Denmark can get a retirement paid by the government in Denmark. EU wants all citizens to be equal so all retired people can move to Denmark and get a pension from the government even if they never paid any taxes in Denmark
16:57<gfldex>Eddi, may it be that wikipedia is your start page in mozilla? :->
16:57<toresbe>gfldex: not really
16:57<huma>how about localized town styles in openttd? like italian, french, swedish, etc?
16:57<@Bjarni>naturally we object because all countries would break from such a condition and go bankrupt and then EU will fine us for not listening
16:57<toresbe>gfldex: the money we are paying them is going toward lowering property prices (because we simply cannot find construction workers enough)
16:57<+glx>huma: building style?
16:57<+glx>make a newgrf :)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>gfldex: why would i do either of those things? (wikipedia as startpage, or use mozilla)
16:58<huma>is there any?
16:58<toresbe>property prices for commerce is a major problem in Oslo, and there are tons of constructions underway.
16:58<toresbe>we have the money, but not the builders :)
16:58<gfldex>Eddi|zuHause2: to be able to post even more wikipedia links?
16:58<@Bjarni>toresbe: we have the same issue. Poland has the same issue, xxx has the same issue
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>i posted exactly one wikipedia link today...
16:58<@Bjarni>I don't see how Poland joining EU helped preventing this case
16:59<huma>glx: ?
16:59<gfldex>you are below your rate then. shame on you!
16:59<SquireJames>If you ask me, we brits have the right idea, I just wish we were less influenced by the US
16:59<toresbe>Bjarni: it helped because otherwise it would not be feasible for the Polacks to enter Norway to work.
16:59<toresbe>the leaking of money into Poland isn't a problem in the long term, as the European economies fuse ever closer.
16:59<SquireJames>but with Brown as PM now, maybe we will be, Blair was so far up GW Bush's backside you couldn't tell where one began and the other ended
17:00<huma>glx: found :)
17:01<@Bjarni><toresbe> the leaking of money into Poland isn't a problem in the long term, as the European economies fuse ever closer. <-- this is never going to work. ALL financial experts claims that EU is not built on solid financial ground. In fact it's bound to fail, but the politicians moves on anyway and for some reason the media doesn't really investigate why the financial experts warns about this
17:02<toresbe>"ALL financial experts" is so biased it barely warrants a response.
17:03<gfldex>if you got a lot forein workes they are going to exchange into their currency you create (artificial) need for your own currency. that means relative price to other currency goes up. that means it gets more expensive to buy foreign currency what you need to import stuff. ATM that's not a problem because you can keep it in balance with selling oil. But that will change.
17:03<@Bjarni> <toresbe> "ALL financial experts" is so biased it barely warrants a response. <-- well, prove me wrong then :)
17:03<toresbe>No. Do you really think that the EU would even begin to happen if as you say, everyone with a clue about finance opposed it?
17:03<@Bjarni>and I mean a real expert, not just a self proclaimed expert
17:04<gfldex>Bjarni: they dont do worry much because it works for the US since decades
17:04<toresbe>In fact, when it comes to political parties, the more traditionally financially oriented the parties become, the stronger they favour EU membership, in most cases.
17:04<toresbe>Of course, in Norway it's a no-brainer: Joining EU would be truly disasterous.
17:04<toresbe>for the economy, and for the environment.
17:05<huma>politics is boring..
17:05[~]huma yawns
17:05<toresbe>It is in the EUs short-term interest that oil and gas prices be low. The interests of Norway, and the environment, are the opposite.
17:05<@Bjarni>the US has problems as well due to this. They are transmitting a whole lot of money between the states in order not to bankrupt states and close most jobs in them
17:05<toresbe>huma: I find it to be truly fascinating.
17:05<huma>someone has to :)
17:05<toresbe>Bjarni: not so. The US system is idiotic for entirely different reasons.
17:05<@Bjarni>also the US has a fundamental difference. It allows bigger difference between the states than EU will allow between the countries
17:06<gfldex>the US is in trouble because their currency is not covered anymore. It wasn't with gold and it isnt with economics growth
17:06<gfldex>but they dont care because so many other contries have so much $s that they simply dont know where to put them
17:06<gfldex>so they end up in the US
17:07<gfldex>in the end they will let their currency crash and make anybody else a long nose
17:07<@Bjarni><huma> politics is boring.. <-- idiot :P
17:07<huma>Bjarni: you're biased :)
17:08<gfldex>being biased is what politics is all about
17:08<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truelight * r11220 /trunk/ -Fix r11217: not all gmakes allow "" in ifeq (go figure)
17:08<huma>that's why it's boring :)
17:08<@Bjarni>idiot: word originates from ancient Greek and means a man, who do not pay interest in politics
17:08[~]huma googles
17:08|-|FlowaPowa [] has quit [Quit: FlowaPowa]
17:08[~]Sacro is fed up
17:08<@Bjarni>so I will claim by rights to call huma an idiot if he claims politics to be boring
17:09<Sacro>politics are boring
17:09<Sacro>from the latin "poly" meaning many
17:09<Sacro>and "tics" meaning blood sucking leeches
17:09<huma>"Idiot is a word derived from the Greek ???????, idi?t?s ("person lacking professional skill," "a private citizen," "individual")"
17:09<huma>told you, biased :)
17:10<gfldex>you got that wrong Bjarni. Idiots where not allowed to vote or getting elected. What put them at the same level with women and foreigners. What is a bit mean.
17:10<huma>etymology is fascinating though
17:10<@Bjarni>I read the other thing...
17:10<@Bjarni>I wonder if the book got it wrong
17:11<@Bjarni>but if a person had no rights to vote, he was likely not very interested in politics, at least not as interested as the voters
17:11<huma>or you did :)
17:11<@Bjarni>no I didn't
17:11<@Bjarni>it was pretty clear
17:11<@Bjarni>not to mention the teacher said the same thing
17:11<Eddi|zuHause2>huma: your client is broken
17:12<huma>gfldex: from that point of view it's funny how feminism and idiotism turned out
17:12<huma>Eddi|zuHause2: huh?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>huma: more specifically, your utf8 characters are replaced by '?'
17:12<Sacro>facebook is good for stalking
17:13<@Bjarni><huma> gfldex: from that point of view it's funny how feminism and idiotism turned out <-- yeah... the US idiotists even elected one of their own as president
17:13|-|Rubidium_ [] has joined #openttd
17:13<huma>damn, you got me into it after all! :)
17:13<gfldex>do you call religious ppl idiots nowadays?
17:13<@Bjarni>that depends
17:13<@Bjarni>on the religion
17:13|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:14|-|Rubidium_ changed nick to Rubidium
17:14<Sacro>you stupid danish person
17:14<huma>i try to not label anyone
17:14<gfldex>with what kind of religion would you be cool with?
17:14<Sacro>*coughs* not muslim
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>but you do know that the majority of the gene pool in america is from poor immigrants who were often low peasants in their homecountry
17:14<huma>Sacro: :)
17:14<@Bjarni>Sacro: I didn't say anything about what religion I referred to
17:15<huma>Eddi|zuHause2: how about the australian gene pool? :)
17:15<@Bjarni>in fact I was thinking about Jehovah's witnesses and stuff like that
17:15<gfldex>like the ppl from Hessen that got sold to fight for england?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>it was only in the mid 19th century when lots of highly decorated scientists went there
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>(usually jewish people expelled from germany)
17:15<huma>c# attack!
17:16<gfldex>that came later Eddi
17:16<@Bjarni>oh Sacro is bored
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>er, i mean the 20th century
17:16<@Bjarni>I will upload a pic to prevent him from getting even more bored
17:16<@Bjarni>one sec
17:16<gfldex>and most ppl left europe because their religion got them at trouble at home
17:16<huma>Bjarni: i told you, politics is.. :)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>that's why the two politically important groups in america are idiots and jews
17:16<gfldex>that's at least true for germany and england
17:17[~]huma waits for a nsfw picture from Bjarni
17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, in germany, the religion thing was fought out
17:17<huma>i hope the latter will come to power next term :)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>30 years war, 1618-1648
17:18<@Bjarni>there are two pictures on my camera that I don't recall taking
17:18<gfldex>that you declare the war to be over after 30 years does not mean that you agree with each other
17:18<huma>Bjarni: you're getting old :)
17:18<gfldex>it just means you are out of ammo
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>in the end, neither side won, and the country was totally devastated
17:19<@Bjarni><huma> Bjarni: you're getting old :) <-- I'm more thinking like "who took my camera while I was elsewhere"
17:19<huma>what cam is that?
17:19<gfldex>a lot land switched hands and preussen got a good head start
17:19<gfldex>wasnt all the bad in the end
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>also, a pretty large group of german immigrants were soldiers, who were forced to fight on the english side in the independence war
17:19<@Bjarni>I presume asking the person in the picture would solve this :)
17:22|-|Greyscale_ [] has joined #openttd
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>gfldex: yeah, the father of the guy in the wikipedia link was a major agitator in the "Westfälischer Frieden", he got quite a lot of land through diplomacy that way
17:22<@Bjarni>Sacro: <-- look at real life simsig and drool :D
17:23<@Bjarni>I took this picture earlier this week
17:23<Sacro>:o nice
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>they use Windows?!?
17:24<@Bjarni>I didn't really figure out why they prefer to sit in the dark. When I asked they replied that they just want to do so
17:24|-|KouDy [user@] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
17:24<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> they use Windows?!? <-- it sure looks like it. Makes you wonder why more than 80% of the delays are caused by signal issues
17:24<@Bjarni>I think that's delays more than 3 or 5 minutes
17:25<@Bjarni>a train being delayed 1 or 2 minutes in departure due to a child carriage or something is not included in those statistics
17:25<gfldex>the invention of LCD displays is the salvation of such work places i bet
17:26<gfldex>think of that in terms of CRTs. what would be 1kW heating for each work place
17:27|-|Amix [] has joined #openttd
17:27<@Bjarni>actually I was once in an EMU and two guys went from the cab to the middle of the train, opened a closet like device and pressed a few buttons. The lights and all sounds died and then they pressed a few more buttons and everything started to come back. One of them then said "now it will be ready in 3 minutes"
17:27<@Bjarni>they really rebooted the train o_O
17:28<gfldex>in some regional trains in germany you can see voltage displays of the train as a passanger
17:28<gfldex>if you had the right key you even could switch the train off :)
17:28<@Bjarni>I have seen voltage gauges and pressure gauges in passengers cars... it's not like it's odd
17:28|-|Amix [] has quit []
17:29<@Bjarni>I once saw some settings for a car (I think it's scrapped now). It was behind a glass cover so the staff could see the setup without opening, but it also meant that everybody else could see it
17:29<@Bjarni>it had interesting switches, like turning taillights on and off
17:30<@Bjarni>switching between steam and electrical heating
17:30<@Bjarni>turn the indoor lights on and off
17:30<@Bjarni>stuff like that
17:30<@Bjarni>I don't think they maintained the steam part of it anymore though
17:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r11221 /branches/noai/ (118 files in 10 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r11145:11220
17:31<gfldex>that's why they dont use steam engines in the winter anymore :)
17:32<@Bjarni>the diesel engines used to have a boiler to produce steam to heat up the cars
17:32<@Bjarni>I think the last "normal" train using this system in Denmark drove it's last trip in 1989
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>most german diesel engines were equipped with electrical heating
17:33|-|Greyscale_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:33<gfldex>that one is still going with 2 steam trains in the middle of germany
17:33<@Bjarni>the issue is not to produce the electricity. It was that when DSB moved from steam to diesel (starting in 1954) they had a whole lot of cars that had steam heating only
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>that's narrow gauge :p
17:33<gfldex>it narrow track tho
17:34<@Bjarni>looks like the Harzen guys
17:34<gfldex>that Harzquerbahn Eddi
17:34<Eddi|zuHause2>i know where hasserode is :p
17:34<gfldex>you ever used that one?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause2>only the beer tastes crap :p
17:34<@Bjarni>they have narrow gauge tracks all over that funny mountain thingie
17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, my mother is from that region
17:35<@Bjarni>those guys master a special skill
17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>and my grandparents still live there
17:35<gfldex>i went there as a child a few times
17:35<gfldex>lovely place but the steam engine is not as funny as one may think
17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>but it is a while ago since i actually used it
17:35<gfldex>you are breathing smoke when it's moving slowly
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>the last time i can remember was around 1989-1990
17:36<@Bjarni>whenever they make wheelslip, they add sand to stop the wheels from spinning really fast. The wheels are then slowed to the correct RPM, but since the pistons are at high speed, they are likely to crack and they produce a breakdown :s
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>when they opened the Brocken for the public
17:36<@Bjarni>I don't know why they don't just reduce steam until it catches the rails again (like the rest of us)
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>it didn't drive up there yet, so we walked from schierke to the peak
17:37<@Bjarni>it really is the only way to stop wheelslip on a steam locomotive
17:37<gfldex>that's a good walk
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, it is ;)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause2>it was winter, but not a hard one
17:38<gfldex>i grow up in Leipzig, so they send me to that place to change the color of my lungs from black to something more healthy
17:38<@Bjarni>hehe... I think this is an interesting channel. One guy posts an image and the two other active guys in the channel can tell where it's from :D
17:38<Eddi|zuHause2>not like the 1988/89 winter, which we spent in neuhaus
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>with like 2m snow in one night
17:39<@Bjarni>gfldex: they sent you to the steam locomotives to ensure that your lungs didn't turn black?
17:39<gfldex>that's how polluted my home town was
17:40[~]Bjarni notes not to go to Leipzig
17:40<gfldex>if you dig in your nose what color do you get out of it?
17:40<@Bjarni>that depends
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: it has way improved since they closed down all the industries
17:40<@Bjarni>if I have been on the railroad, then black
17:40<@Bjarni>well, sometimes
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean literally _all_ the industries
17:40<@Bjarni>specially if I have been on top of the enigne
17:40<gfldex>my bogeys where all black in that time
17:41<gfldex>because anybody was heating with coal
17:41<gfldex>that crappy stuff we digged out of the ground nearby
17:41<@Bjarni>that brown coal from Eastern Germany?
17:41<@Bjarni>or black coal from Poland/Ruhr?
17:41<huma>eh.. still the same
17:41<@Bjarni>first or latter?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: leipzig is in east germany, and when he says "nearby"...
17:42<gfldex>the brown one with that nice level of sulfur in it
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, leipzig is not far away from here...
17:42<@Bjarni>sulfur isn't bad when it comes to creating black smoke... all the other impurities in the coal are though
17:42<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause2: You say it was bad in Leipzig, but it was even worse on the other side of Erzgebirge
17:43<gfldex>in Leipig it depends where the wind came from
17:43<gfldex>so we had good and bad days. other places where not so lucky
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>Vikthor: that may be, but tschechia has much lower unemployment rates than east germany
17:43<@Bjarni>we could stop a whole lot of pollution if Germany would stop using their poor coal in the powerplants
17:44<@Bjarni>switching to coal from Ruhr would actually improve conditions
17:44<gfldex>we dont use it anymore
17:44<@Bjarni>and power output
17:44<@Bjarni>you finally got rid of it?
17:44<gfldex>the mines are nearly empty anyway
17:44<gfldex>we would have to open new mines and remove a few cities
17:44<@Bjarni>when did you stop using it?
17:44<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause2: You know not only we had our brown coal-powerplants, due to prevailing winds we have been getting your pollution
17:45|-|mikl [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Peer Gynt]
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>it's funny, near Bitterfeld they wanted to flood a "Tagebau" [= open mine], it was projected to be filled in 10 years
17:45<gfldex>we stopped in the end of the '90s
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>then there came the big flood
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>and it filled up in 5 days
17:46<gfldex>there are 3 new sees near leipzig. they where not there 10 years ago
17:46<gfldex>that flood was indeed not planned :)
17:46<Vikthor>You should see the landscape around Most, its the same
17:46<@Bjarni>strip mining is bad for the environment and actually dangerous even after the mining stops
17:47<gfldex>but if those who felt victim would have listened to their grandpas it would not have hit them that hard
17:47<gfldex>the older ppl knew why they didnt build houses there for ages
17:47<gfldex>it's bad for ground water levels Bjarni
17:48<gfldex>but if you stop the pumps at gets better real quick
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the housing business boomed in the past ~15 years
17:48<gfldex>the parts of Leipzig that are close to that 3 sees even got problems now
17:48<gfldex>some basements are getting quite wet
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>of course there come along greedy guys who buy cheap land, not considering the reasons why it's so cheap
17:49<@Bjarni>DSB found a nice empty spot near the tracks and built a depot to prepare the EMUs for service... then they figured out why it was vacant. They had problems making a stable foundation (really soft) and they have to use a pump at all times or they will have 50 cm of water on the floor
17:49<@Bjarni>there are certain places where it's just not meant to build anything
17:49<gfldex>like the subway in newyork? :)
17:49<@Bjarni><gfldex> it's bad for ground water levels Bjarni <-- that too
17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>new york is funny, after 50cm of digging, all you find is rock :p
17:50<@Bjarni>during the war Denmark did some strip mining for brown coal as well. Now the area is sealed off because it's dangerous and it's full of lakes
17:51<gfldex>luckyly we dont got that problem in germany
17:51<gfldex>the coal was compareable close the surface
17:51<@Bjarni>there is a small museum there on one of the relatively safe spots, though they have signs everywhere telling people not to leave the trails
17:51|-|Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:52<@Bjarni>one of the lakes (at least the one they told about) makes a chemical reaction with something underneath so it's an acid lake without anything living in it
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2>there are still more areas to be flooded here
17:52<@Bjarni>too strong acid for just being pure carbon acid
17:53<Eddi|zuHause2>like one "Tagebau" west of Merseburg
17:53<@Bjarni>it had a pretty colour though
17:53<Eddi|zuHause2>that's an area which was not affected by the big flood
17:53<gfldex>where do you live Eddi?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause2>i live west of Halle
17:54<gfldex>is halle a ghost town allready?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>not really ;)
17:54<Vikthor>Bjarni: Here(Well not exactly here, around Teplice) they flooded one mine and now it is open for swimming
17:54<@Bjarni>without any acid burns?
17:55<gfldex>a friend of mine is teacher in leipzig and he got friends in halle.
17:55<gfldex>teachers aswell and they say there is not much to do for them
17:55<Eddi|zuHause2>don't believe _all_ stories on
17:55<gfldex>quite scary
17:55<@Bjarni>well, I wouldn't go swimming in any of the lakes I saw. The reason is that the ground in the area was basically sand, so all the shorelines were really unstable
17:56<Vikthor>I am not sure but there should be no acid if you have not been refilling the mine with ash from the coal
17:56<TrueBrain>does the extension .tt exist?
17:56<Vikthor>and this mine was closed for rother long time
17:56<TrueBrain>we should get :p
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>apparently :p
17:57<gfldex>.tt is trinidat and tabogo
17:57<gfldex>so they are basicly voodoo domains :D
17:57<huma> is available, btw
17:57<@Bjarni>it's called Trinidad and Tobago
17:58<@Bjarni>yeah, we should get that one :D
17:58<huma>glx could do that
17:58<@Bjarni>why glx?
17:58<@Bjarni>why not TrueBrain?
17:58<huma>he has a cool nick
17:58[~]glx slaps huma
17:59<@Bjarni>that's the rest reason if they ever was one :D
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>getting such a top level domain might get tricky if you do not own a server in that country
17:59<+glx>not a valid reason :)
17:59<TrueBrain>$500 for 2 years
17:59<TrueBrain>wait, even worse
17:59<TrueBrain>$1000 for 2 years
17:59<TrueBrain>else you need to take
17:59<TrueBrain>but that spoils it :p
17:59<@Bjarni>I think we will stick to
17:59<huma>TrueBrain: 1000?
18:00<huma>where did you get that?
18:00<TrueBrain>Registration Fee, FOREIGN, 2nd level domain
18:00<gfldex>if you got a .tv domain you are in trouble btw
18:00|-|svip [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:00<huma>it's a ripoff!
18:00<gfldex>because you need a state to get a top level domain
18:01<gfldex>and they will be gone in 50 years
18:01|-|svip [] has joined #openttd
18:01<huma>a state?
18:01<TrueBrain>I once requested if I could have my own TLD :p
18:01<TrueBrain>I got a very nice response :)
18:01<gfldex>at least for that kind of TLD
18:01<@Bjarni>the domain called was once for rent for $1.000.000/year
18:01<@Bjarni>all of a sudden it contained a porn site
18:02<@Bjarni><huma> a state? <-- it's a whole island in the Pacific and it's a country of it's own
18:02<gfldex>it is a island for now ...
18:02<@Bjarni>they are like 25k people and some US company offered them $4 million a year for the rights to all .tv domains
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>.tv belongs to the country of tuvalu
18:03|-|Jaywizzle [] has joined #openttd
18:03<gfldex>the first country to get disbanded because they will run out of land in history
18:03<@Bjarni>4 million a year is a lot for 25k people in a poor country
18:03<huma>their whole economy is based on cybersquatting?
18:03<@Bjarni>looks like it
18:03<Eddi|zuHause2>4 million? they can get better deals than that
18:03<Jaywizzle>Ok this may be a horribly stupid question, but i was playing a randomly generated game and its 2020 and i see all the aval trains but i cant build any, how do i gain access to build them??
18:03<@Bjarni>most likely
18:03<Eddi|zuHause2>selling all domains individually
18:04<Eddi|zuHause2>Jaywizzle: build a depot, click on it
18:04<@Bjarni>yeah, but it looked like they wanted to sell them all for a steady income without any work
18:04<huma>i wonder how many of those 25k have internet access
18:04<TrueBrain>I am so bored... what to do...
18:04<@Bjarni>then the buyer sells them individually
18:04<Eddi|zuHause2>Jaywizzle: you cannot build vehicles from the vehicle list
18:04|-|Osai [] has joined #openttd
18:04<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: code something really cool
18:04<huma>TrueBrain: yes please :)
18:05<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: like an air condition controller
18:05<@Bjarni>that would be cool
18:05<gfldex>if they sell them by themself they need the infrastructure to run a registry
18:05<TrueBrain>Bjarni: I already made a server for EaB in Stackless Python
18:05<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: exactly, and make a gazillion of extra money
18:05<TrueBrain>it was really cool
18:05<Eddi|zuHause2>for very little work
18:05<gfldex>that way they simply rent the right to have a registry out
18:05<Jaywizzle>yup did so i have plenty of trains but i want the new engines i dont see them aval on my list at depots
18:05<huma>for what?
18:05<TrueBrain>Earth and Beyond
18:05<Eddi|zuHause2>Jaywizzle: then build a depot of the proper railtype
18:05<TrueBrain>a cool game that closed down some years ago
18:06<Jaywizzle>i see them as being aval and they should be bwecause of the year, but when i click a depot and build a new train all i have aval is two engines
18:06<Jaywizzle>mmm kay
18:06<huma>why stackless?
18:06[~]Bjarni was just attacked by a bug
18:07<@Bjarni>it flew right into my face
18:07<TrueBrain>huma: proof of concept more than anything else, but also because it is the right language for that job
18:07<TrueBrain>as example: EVE: Online switched to it too, for a good reason
18:07<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: here you have sex tv :p
18:07<@Bjarni>I guess it's payback for all the bug hunting and bug killing I have done
18:07<huma>python is sweet
18:07<gfldex>you need stackless python because of the stack limitations on windows
18:07<gfldex>that's why eve is using it too
18:07<TrueBrain>gfldex: euh, like: wrong!
18:07<TrueBrain>stack limitations is not related to Windows, to start
18:08<TrueBrain>second, it is a 'cheap' way for threading, the reason EVE uses it
18:08<huma>haha! stacks flame war! :)
18:08<gfldex>true but they are more ugly on windows then anywhere else
18:08<TrueBrain>gfldex: it is not related to Windows
18:08<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: hehe
18:08<TrueBrain>C uses stacks
18:08<TrueBrain>that is why in C, and all languages based on C, you have a stack limit
18:08<TrueBrain>Python is made in C
18:08<gfldex>i know, you got problems with the stack anywhere if you have lots and lots of small functions that call each other
18:08<TrueBrain>2 functions
18:09<TrueBrain>and we call it recursion
18:09<gfldex>C got (at least in theory) an endless stack
18:09<TrueBrain>no, it does not
18:09<gfldex>the heap starts to grow from one end and the stack at the other
18:09<TrueBrain>in theory even, the stack is the size of the memory
18:09<@Bjarni>I found another youtube video today. Some candid camera in Japanese trains and they filmed the reaction when famous people started telling stories (or something) though the speaker system
18:09|-|mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
18:09|-|[TrueBrain] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | YouTube link == Ban
18:10|-|mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
18:10<@Bjarni>it was in Japanese and with Japanese subtitles, so I think it could be really funny, but I didn't get it :(
18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>we tried that with bash links previously, it did not exactly work out :p
18:10<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: why?
18:10<huma>Bjarni: hint: use tinyurl :)
18:10<TrueBrain>Bjarni: for the same reason as bash-links == ban
18:11<TrueBrain>gfldex: anyway, the stackless part of stackless python isn't real, and not the main advantage
18:11<@Bjarni>no, that's the result
18:11<TrueBrain>the microthreads are
18:11<@Bjarni>I asked for the reason
18:11<huma>TrueBrain doesn't have flash to watch videos :)
18:11<TrueBrain>and I refered you to the reason which states that bash links result in a ban
18:11<TrueBrain>huma: ssstttt
18:11<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: the link was bad anyway
18:12<gfldex>CCP seam not to be that happy then them tho
18:12<TrueBrain>gfldex: in fact, there is a microthread lib for C, but it is rather ugly :s
18:12<@Bjarni>it's some gay looking guy in leather talking German
18:12<@Bjarni>didn't bother to finish watching it
18:12<huma>what's cool is when flash has a link to skip it inside the flash :)
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>it's actually a german comedy show
18:12<TrueBrain>downside of Python, it is rather memory inefficient for jobs like MMO servers
18:12<huma>or even better - has a link to download flash :)
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>and moreover, a crossover between two comedy shows :p
18:13<TrueBrain>and after working for 2 weeks in python now, I have to say: I don't like Python-syntax
18:13<Eddi|zuHause2>although it is pretty old
18:13<huma>2 years? as the main language?
18:13<gfldex>i read the syntax of python and i decided to stick with perl when it comes to scripting
18:13<TrueBrain>python is good for scripting
18:14<TrueBrain>really good
18:14<gfldex>javascript (1.7 and later) is a true beauty tho
18:14<TrueBrain>not so 'hackish' as Perl
18:14<gfldex>rather slow sadly
18:14<TrueBrain>but... the mistakes I make 2 weeks ago, I still do
18:14<TrueBrain>which annoys me
18:14<gfldex>i like the hackish part in perl :)
18:14<TrueBrain>as it means that the language sucks
18:14<TrueBrain>$@, $_, $^
18:14<TrueBrain>I hate it
18:14<TrueBrain>@var, $var
18:15<TrueBrain>but then again, implicit decleration sucks too
18:15<TrueBrain>in Python: buf = len("abc")
18:15<huma>my $TrueBrain :)
18:15<TrueBrain>len = 2
18:15<TrueBrain>buf = len("abc")
18:15<TrueBrain>3rd line fails
18:15<gfldex>$_ together with destructuring arrays is quite nice
18:15<TrueBrain>not the 2nd, the 3rd
18:15<gfldex>and you solve the problem with variable parameter count in function quite elegant
18:15<gfldex>because it's the default :)
18:16<TrueBrain>my biggest problem with Python are the error messages
18:16<TrueBrain>gcc is unclear in its messages
18:16<TrueBrain>but Python tops it
18:16<gfldex>and they can be like a mile long :)
18:16<TrueBrain>that too
18:16<TrueBrain>bah, it is tempting to start playing EVE: Online
18:16<TrueBrain>lucky for me cedega doesn't work here at the moment :p
18:16<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: the most funny part is, the original "sex tv" sketches were part of the "Wochenschau", which was broadcast on Sat.1, but the guy walking in greets the "Pro 7 viewers" (knowing that he would later broadcast this sketch on his show on the other channel)
18:17<gfldex>i stopped playing eve. did it for more then 4 years
18:17<TrueBrain>last time I played it (2 years ago or so), I found it boring
18:17<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: heh
18:17<gfldex>then we moved shit worth 35B from lower tash to deep 0.0 and nobody really nobody could cause us a problem
18:17<TrueBrain>the reason I started to work on the EaB server :p
18:17<gfldex>and that's plain wrong
18:18<TrueBrain>but now I have a nice stackless python server for EaB, but several packages take 80ms to build
18:18<TrueBrain>which is just too long
18:18<TrueBrain>and that is because I can't allocate N bytes of memory, and roll a struct over it
18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>if you browse through youtube, you can probably find either more "sex tv" sketches, or more "rabigramm" sketches
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>like the rabigramm with the klitschko brothers... that one is great :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>(that was in the show "Wetten, daß..?!" (on ZDF))
18:20<gfldex>are discussions about youtube links allowed?
18:20<TrueBrain>gfldex: Eddi|zuHause2 knows he is pushing it ;)
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>probably not :p
18:20|-|Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:21|-|Deathmaker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:22<gfldex>what exactly do you need the microthreads for in that server TrueBrain?
18:23<TrueBrain>anyway, I now wonder if I should try to increase the speed of my server, but... I think I should pick an other language and try again :s
18:23<TrueBrain>gfldex: simple: every connection goes in its own thread
18:23<TrueBrain>if you do this via, say, pthread
18:23<TrueBrain>there is a BIG overhead
18:23<TrueBrain>and a max of, what, 1200?
18:23<TrueBrain>(most systems drop out when you try to create 1000+ threads)
18:23<gfldex>linux should be fine with that
18:23<TrueBrain>microthreads aren't 'real' threads, as in that they don't push and pop the stack
18:24<TrueBrain>gfldex: no, even linux drops out at 1200
18:24<TrueBrain>Windows sooner
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18:24<gfldex>you have to iterate of those connections, right?
18:24<TrueBrain>not via this way :)
18:25<gfldex>so you end up with polluting the CPU cache quite a lot
18:25<TrueBrain> <- this tells most things :)
18:25<TrueBrain>Anyway, you can also put timers in threads like this
18:25<TrueBrain>so you say: wait(3)
18:25<TrueBrain>and it waits 3 seconds
18:26<TrueBrain>without holding the rest of the application
18:26<TrueBrain>1 thing you really have to keep in mind, is that all local variables are gone when it returns
18:26<TrueBrain>but that is just a matter of coding correctly :)
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18:28<TrueBrain>wow, CCP helped with a lot of improvements in Python I didn't know about..
18:28<TrueBrain>most of them are exactly what I need :)
18:28<gfldex>if you would have to serve that many connections in c++ you would try to handle all connections in one process
18:28<TrueBrain>blathijs: EVE: Online creators
18:29<TrueBrain>gfldex: yes, which overcomplicates things
18:29<gfldex>depends on your implementation
18:29<TrueBrain>gfldex: simple example: I read 4 bytes of the network, indicating a length of the packet
18:29<TrueBrain>with microthreads I just do: while True: tasklett.suspend()
18:29<TrueBrain>or what ever
18:29<TrueBrain>till the length is read
18:29<gfldex>stackless p. has to be written in some language and my bet is it's c++
18:29<TrueBrain>in your case, it would be much more complicated
18:29<TrueBrain>and in fact: slower
18:29<gfldex>you will type yourself bloody fingers tho
18:29<TrueBrain>gfldex: it is a small patch over Python, so it is C
18:30<Sacro>TrueBrain: how did you get my lego train into ottd?
18:30<TrueBrain>Sacro: via Blender
18:30<TrueBrain>"ordered dictionary"
18:30<TrueBrain>haha, I love how CCP things :)
18:30<gfldex>you could use trolltechs Qt
18:31<gfldex>very easy and nice to write as well
18:31<gfldex>and you dont need threads
18:31<TrueBrain>you don't get it :)
18:31<TrueBrain>without microthreads, a server of this magnitude == slow
18:31<TrueBrain>in which ever langugage
18:31<TrueBrain>-g :p
18:31<gfldex>you ever used Qt?
18:32<TrueBrain>only for some simple GUI
18:34<gfldex>TrueBrain: you know that CCP is switching from stackless to C++ bit by bit?
18:34<gfldex>at least for the server part
18:34<gfldex>the client will stay in stackless for some time
18:34<TrueBrain>at the 17th of August they claimed something else
18:34<TrueBrain>gfldex: anyway, CCP doesn't use microthreads (yet)
18:35<gfldex>they sayed they do
18:35<Sacro>TrueBrain: thats too complex for stupid little me
18:35<gfldex>did you see the vids from last fanfest?
18:36<TrueBrain>"We will start experimenting in the use of Python threads in conjunction with tasklets to try to reduce client side lag."
18:36<TrueBrain>gfldex: no, I didn't
18:36<gfldex>client != server
18:36<gfldex>they had some good interviews with quite a lot ppl
18:37<gfldex>and oveur sayed they replace python on server side bit by bit with c++
18:37<TrueBrain>"On the server side, we have found that increased responsiveness reduces lag"
18:37<TrueBrain>(talking about replacing C++ with Python)
18:37<TrueBrain>hehe, confusing times :p
18:37<TrueBrain>but okay
18:37<TrueBrain>not that important, I guess :)
18:38<gfldex>they more or less pay the development of stackless python
18:38<gfldex>so they wont say anything bad about it
18:38<TrueBrain>true :p
18:39<gfldex>or better stay spend money to that uni where the guy got a position that is doing it
18:39<TrueBrain>anyway, normal threads are just too slow, and without threads, servers like this are a complete mess
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18:40<gfldex>that's what C++ is for. hide the mess behind classes (that happen to be messy then :)
18:40<TrueBrain>:) It is not only that
18:40<TrueBrain>take the EaB servers, there are 2 other versions: Java and C++
18:40<TrueBrain>Java I don't know, didn't look into
18:41<TrueBrain>but the C++ is done via pthreads
18:41<TrueBrain>each connection gets a thread
18:41<TrueBrain>that server will be slow with a high amount of clients connected
18:41<gfldex>maybe they wantet to run it on spark? :)
18:42<gfldex>that sun processors
18:42<+glx>I think it's sparc
18:42<TrueBrain>sparc :)
18:42<TrueBrain>ah, k :p
18:42<gfldex>it's getting late
18:42<TrueBrain>I forgive you ;)
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18:42<TrueBrain>but okay.. I like Python Stackless concept, I dislike Python :p
18:43<gfldex>is there any language that is actually good all around?
18:43<TrueBrain>of course not
18:43<gfldex>a good project for you then :->
18:43<TrueBrain>hehe, I ahve been thinking about it ;)
18:43<TrueBrain>but no, if you are a good programmer, you will never find a language that is perfect all around
18:44<TrueBrain>there is always something :p
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18:44<gfldex>i missplaced a & in c++ code a few days back
18:44<gfldex>took me 2 days to find out whats wrong
18:44<+glx>, instead ; is nice too
18:45<gfldex>that gives you a compiler error on most cases
18:45<gfldex>i got a iterator that refused to stop to iterate
18:46<gfldex>resulting in a segfault
18:47<TrueBrain>and C++ is one of the best languages ;)
18:48<TrueBrain>hehe :p
18:48<gfldex>i ended up with comparing memory positions of pointers (that's what's left of iterators after optimizations)
18:48<gfldex>and i got to pointers that where different where they had to be the same
18:48<gfldex>i still could not see what was going wrong
18:48<TrueBrain>gfldex: btw, one other advantage about Python, you can reload parts of it without shutting down ;)
18:48<ln->an ottd rewrite in python?=
18:49<TrueBrain>hahaha :)
18:49<TrueBrain>good luck :p
18:49<+glx>have fun with the gui ;)
18:49<TrueBrain>I wonder if you can make a convertor...
18:49<gfldex>at first you would have to abond the grf and savegame void* deep deep black magic
18:49<ln->i do have the python book, but i'm approximately at the "hello world" page..
18:49<gfldex>and all those nice grfs are the point of that game
18:50<TrueBrain>lol, the memorypools would be a cool one too :p
18:50<gfldex>you would have to change anything
18:50[~]SpComb is a Python addict
18:50<TrueBrain>so basicly: a rewrite :p
18:51<gfldex>wouldn't be the worst move tho
18:51<SpComb>Python asynchronous networking/IO <3
18:51<gfldex>you would release earth from a source of pain
18:51<TrueBrain>OpenTTD in Python, interesting concept :)
18:52<gfldex>there are bindings for SDL and kairo
18:52<SpComb>OpenTTD server in python...
18:52<gfldex>so you could build a fully zoomable gui fairly easy :)
18:52<TrueBrain>SpComb: sadly enough, impossible
18:52<TrueBrain>as the server needs to know the gamelogic
18:52<Sacro> :D
18:53<TrueBrain>and as the gamelogic is equal to the whole game
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18:53<TrueBrain>@kick Sacro nice try, but it still is a youtube to me
18:53|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [nice try, but it still is a youtube to me]
18:53|-|Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:53<Sacro>aww :(
18:53<gfldex>you could give the grf (or better mod) writers a lot more freedom
18:54<TrueBrain>gfldex: we can also just take Squirrel from NoAI branch, and allow that for grfs :)
18:54<gfldex>i would prefere javascript tbh
18:54<gfldex>i looked over the squirrel syntax and it got a lot stuff you dont really need
18:54<TrueBrain>we picked Squirrel, and for a simple reason: it is light
18:54<TrueBrain>6000 lines of source-code to compile Squirrel
18:54<TrueBrain>JavaScript is a bit... bigger :p
18:55<gfldex>not much
18:55<gfldex>and you can load scripts in unicode
18:55<TrueBrain>the last time I checked, you needed a lot of files :p
18:55<TrueBrain>Squirrel too :p
18:55<gfldex>and that means you could implement the gui description completely in javascript
18:55<gfldex>translaters could translate the gui then instead of to short strings :)
18:55<TrueBrain>gfldex: any scripting language can do that
18:56<TrueBrain> <- argh, I have made that in the last week myself! :(
18:56<TrueBrain>only a bit slower, but okay :p
18:58<TrueBrain>Sacro: pretty :)
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19:05<TrueBrain>night dihedral
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19:10<TrueBrain>gfldex: btw, the last time I benchmarked Javascript, it was very slow, relative to all other languages
19:10<TrueBrain>and last time I checked, I couldn't find a good embedable library, besides the Mozilla, which needed some lib that took 20 minutes to compile :p
19:11<gfldex>spidermonkey build in less then a minute on my system
19:11<TrueBrain>spidermonkey, that was the name
19:11<TrueBrain>I couldn't get the embed lib to work
19:11<TrueBrain>(and I did a lot of languages :p)
19:12<gfldex>did you follow the examples on
19:12<TrueBrain>no, it was a few years back now
19:12<gfldex>spidermonkey changed a lot in the last years
19:12<gfldex>and it's going to get even better as closer it gets to javascript 2.0
19:12<TrueBrain>I do remember Python was a bit of a bitch to get to work :) I required that when you called a C function from the script, you could get the function-name
19:12<TrueBrain>but that wasn't that easy ;)
19:12<gfldex>operater overloading \o/
19:13<TrueBrain>In JavaScript?
19:13<TrueBrain>that language really went overboard :)
19:13<gfldex>since 1.7 you got setters and getters and that means you can use good abstractions and working signals and slots like qt is doing it
19:14<gfldex>it got a fun little language
19:14<TrueBrain>it was ment as simple (slow) client-side language :p
19:14<gfldex>and very elegant in it's recursive(-ish) structure
19:14<TrueBrain>is it still that slow?
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19:14<gfldex>it's not optimized at all
19:14<gfldex>no JIT compiler
19:15<TrueBrain>is it planned?
19:15<gfldex>i never read about that but my guess is they are going to do that
19:15<gfldex>if you click anything in mozilla and thunderbird you will trigger some JS code
19:16<gfldex>and at some point they will have to do something about speed
19:16<TrueBrain>I sure hope so :p
19:16<gfldex>esp. when ppl start to use SVG and there are quite a lot skin writers that want to do that
19:17<gfldex>vector gfx in xml
19:17<TrueBrain>ah, that stuff yes
19:17<gfldex>animations are done in JS
19:18<TrueBrain>loading... loading... loading...
19:18<gfldex>my uplink isnt all that fast :)
19:18<gfldex>and the svg is not compressed
19:18<TrueBrain>hehe :)
19:18<TrueBrain>not bad ;)
19:18<TrueBrain>so GoogleOS will be a fact
19:19<gfldex>and in firefox-3 you will have blur as a effect and that means really easy drop shadows
19:19<gfldex>like compiz got them
19:19<De_Ghost>google os?
19:19<De_Ghost>that'll be awsome
19:19<De_Ghost>as long as they don't deliever ads
19:20<gfldex>you can filter them in your http proxy :D
19:20<TrueBrain>De_Ghost: I am saying this for, what, 2 years now? Ever since Google became a hit: there will be a GoogleOS
19:20<TrueBrain>a fully webbased Operating System
19:20<De_Ghost>forget that
19:20<TrueBrain>where your computer only needs to set up some browser in some graphical mode (read: DOS)
19:20<De_Ghost>i don't want a web link
19:20<TrueBrain>and that via a webbrowser you do everything
19:21<TrueBrain>from word-editing, till OpenTTD
19:21<gfldex>in firefox-3 svg got 4x as fast fps then in stable release
19:21<gfldex>so they start to do something with that
19:21<gfldex>finally after ... uhm ... 3 years
19:21<TrueBrain>I made windows via Javascript
19:21<TrueBrain>that was fun :)
19:21<TrueBrain>you could drag them
19:21<TrueBrain>open them
19:21<gfldex>there are browser games that use svg to display stuff
19:22<TrueBrain>hmm, I no longer have that project active, so it seems
19:23<TrueBrain>too bad, it was so much fun :) Just dead and dead slow
19:23<gfldex>with magnetic borders!
19:23<gfldex>well you have to tune firefox a bit
19:23<gfldex>it got a minimum delay for repainting
19:23<gfldex>you have to lower that a bit
19:24<TrueBrain>gfldex: hehe, mine did more: you could open Notepad, and Calculator (which really worked :p)
19:24<TrueBrain>via AJAX calls to the server and back
19:24<gfldex>with firefox-3 cairo support will enjoy us and that means (at least some day) compositing of the whole browser in opengl :)
19:25<TrueBrain>I like you gfldex :p
19:25<gfldex>i make the future look bright, dont it? :D
19:26<TrueBrain>nah, you remind me of myself :)
19:30<TrueBrain>pff, this will be the 3rd big rewrite of my lovely server :p
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19:36<TrueBrain>I still dream to make a patch that allows clustering of server, so you can have 1000 players playing one map :)
19:36<TrueBrain>(in OpenTTD)
19:36<TrueBrain>possible: yes; difficult: VERY
19:37<Sacro>Science: Purpose of Appendix Believed Found
19:37<Sacro> Posted by CowboyNeal on Saturday October 06, @11:08AM
19:37<Sacro>from the still-at-the-back-of-the-book dept.
19:37[~]Sacro roffles
19:38<@Belugas>how difficult, TrueBrain? or rather, where is the complexity?
19:39<Sacro>oh Belugas, did you see that picture earlier, it may be a bug
19:39<TrueBrain>Belugas: what I have in mind means creating a map of, say, 102400x12400
19:39<TrueBrain>spawned over multiple servers
19:39<TrueBrain>and clients connect from one server to the other if they cross borders
19:39<TrueBrain>each sector-server keeps track of his piece of land
19:39<TrueBrain>and the client only has a map of, say, 512x512
19:39<TrueBrain>so needless to say, there is the difficulty ;)
19:40<@Belugas>ho... yeah :i get the picture :)
19:40<@Belugas>but it woul be soooooo coooooolll
19:40<gfldex>you could start with registering players and keep their wallet
19:40<TrueBrain>the client part is relative easy
19:40<gfldex>and increase running costs
19:40<@Belugas>Sacro, not a bug:)
19:40<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r11222 /branches/noai/src/autoslope.h: [NoAI] -Fix (r11221): my text editor decided to play with me between compilation and commit
19:40<TrueBrain>the main problem I have: servers would have a 2048x2048 map
19:40<@Belugas>simply an optical illusion :)
19:40<gfldex>so you have to start little and make your way up the ladder
19:40<TrueBrain>so create a 10240x10240 map, you need
19:41<TrueBrain>@calc 10240*10240 / (2048*2048)
19:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 25
19:41<@Belugas>and tat will break a bit the general maparray...
19:41<TrueBrain>a normal computer can run, like, 4 servers
19:41<TrueBrain>so you need 7 computers :p
19:41<TrueBrain>Belugas: not really a problem, with some clever calculations :)
19:42<gfldex>would you let players be able to have tracks from one server to the other?
19:42<TrueBrain>gfldex: yes
19:42<TrueBrain>the easy way is to make special portals
19:42<gfldex>you could implement the connections like tunnels
19:42<TrueBrain>then the implementation becomes very simple
19:42<TrueBrain>so a very high montain on the borders :p
19:42<TrueBrain>but it is even possible to remove that
19:43<TrueBrain>and make the border seemless for the client
19:43<TrueBrain>but... it takes a lot of coding :)
19:43<gfldex>give each train a GUID and keep a distributed mapping of players<->trains
19:43<TrueBrain>gfldex: it can be done much easier
19:43<TrueBrain>just at some tiles, a train is tracked by 2 servers
19:43<TrueBrain>the big plus about OpenTTD is, that the game logic is 'static'
19:43<TrueBrain>the same thing happens over and over and over with the same Random
19:44<TrueBrain>so the main difficulty is to make this Random happen correctly
19:44<TrueBrain>solution is easy: make the Random set per object
19:44<TrueBrain>(so each train has its own seed)
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19:44<@Belugas>TrueBrain: like someone told me recently "write it down"
19:44<TrueBrain>Belugas: yeah, I did, in the past :)
19:44<gfldex>we use IRC for a reason :)
19:45<TrueBrain>I was wondering why my BNC was lagging
19:45<TrueBrain>but there is a bzip process running on the host
19:45<TrueBrain>anyway, when each object has its own seed (and thatone is used correctly)
19:45<TrueBrain>it doesn't matter who moves it
19:45<TrueBrain>they all move it the same way
19:45<TrueBrain>make the same choices
19:45<TrueBrain>etc etc
19:45<TrueBrain>(unsure if YAPF agree with me here, but okay, we take NTP :p)
19:45<gfldex>how do you keep time in sync?
19:46<TrueBrain>that is a bit tricky, you need to assume all servers make the 30 fps
19:46<TrueBrain>else you need to make a general hearthbeat
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19:46<TrueBrain>telling all servers to do a tick, and check in when they did
19:46<TrueBrain>which means if 1 servers lags, they all lag
19:46<gfldex>you know how CCP keeps their sol server in sync?
19:46<TrueBrain>1 sector doesn't have direct conect with the other, right?
19:47<gfldex>right, they dont
19:47<TrueBrain>so that is much easier
19:47<TrueBrain>even if 1 server is 10 times as fast, nobody would really notice
19:47<gfldex>when a ship leaves a system it stores its state in the DB and deregisters
19:47<gfldex>then the proxy is connecting to the other sol server and that one loads that stuff from DB
19:47<TrueBrain>a simple server-handoff :)
19:47<TrueBrain>in this case, it is a bit more tricky :)
19:47<gfldex>thats why jumping with 300 ppl is a pain in the popo
19:48<TrueBrain>all MMO of this type have that
19:48<TrueBrain>joining is most of the time very expensive
19:49<gfldex>they want to move from ethernet to infiniband or something in that range
19:49<gfldex>because then can than handle connections to the DB server transparent
19:50<gfldex>do you know mosix?
19:50<TrueBrain>read about it long ago
19:50<gfldex>you can move one process from one host to another
19:51<gfldex>if you use a clustering fs (or a DB) you have to deregister and reregister all your connections
19:51<gfldex>because TCP is to stupid to handle that transparently
19:51<gfldex>the limitation here is ethernet
19:51[~]Sacro stretches
19:51<gfldex>with cluster network connections you have another layer of abstraction
19:52<gfldex>and that means you can move a connection from one host to another, without closing the connection
19:52<gfldex>and that's cool!
19:52<TrueBrain>yeah, but still the same amount of data needs to be send
19:52<TrueBrain>I mean, you can solve it easier
19:52<gfldex>true but you dont have to talk to the DB anymore
19:52<TrueBrain>instead of doing it via the DB, let the leaving sector server pack the data it is using and send it to the joining server
19:53<gfldex>the two hosts involed can handle that between each other
19:53<TrueBrain>avoids the talk to the DB also ;)
19:53<TrueBrain>but okay, it is basicly the same, what I say and what you say :)
19:53<gfldex>thats what they want to do
19:53<gfldex>IBM is doing that for ages on the mainframe
19:53<TrueBrain>I am suprised they aren't doing that ...
19:53<gfldex>cant be that hard :)
19:54<TrueBrain>the only question is: do they have the player-data in a single struct or is it spread all over the place :p
19:54<gfldex>they use ethernet and windows
19:54<gfldex>under linux you can have loads and loads of IPs
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19:54<gfldex>you could make the connection transparent with some arp spoofing
19:54<gfldex>that's not possible with windows
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19:55<TrueBrain>are they servers running on Windows?!
19:55<gfldex>and they use MSSQL
19:55<gfldex>there was a funny video
19:55<TrueBrain>I expected more of them...
19:55<gfldex>do you know that marketing guy from CCP? magnus something?
19:55<TrueBrain>I know very little about CCP
19:56<gfldex>he was asked (in a vid) if they did well with the choice of MSSQL
19:56<gfldex>and he was sitting in front of that camera for 20 sec thinking what he should say
19:56<gfldex>quite funny :)
19:56<TrueBrain>lol :)
19:56<TrueBrain>there is no good word
19:56<TrueBrain>I have worked for this company
19:56<TrueBrain>and all their servers were normal user-servers
19:56<TrueBrain>nothing fancy
19:56<TrueBrain>but one
19:57<TrueBrain>that was a beast
19:57<TrueBrain>4 CPUs
19:57<TrueBrain>dunno what more
19:57<TrueBrain>why? Because it had MSSQL running
19:57<TrueBrain>how many users? Just 5
19:57<gfldex>MSSQL is a benchmark DB
19:59<TrueBrain>hmm, I remember reading they used MSSQL several years back
19:59<TrueBrain>then I already laughed my ass off
19:59<TrueBrain>I expected they had moved by now...
20:00<gfldex>the whole point of MSSQL is that you can't move off
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20:00<gfldex>vendor lockin as it's best
20:02<@Belugas>Sacro, i keep on looking at that picture :) it's incredibly good looking
20:02<Sacro>Belugas: isn't my pic
20:02<Sacro>but it is nice
20:03<@Belugas>it feels strange to see it been used on ottd by a non dev :D
20:03<ln->wtf, i tried to install FreeBSD on vmware, and after a successful-looking installation it just says "can't load 'kernel'" after reboot.
20:03<TrueBrain>ln-: nasty
20:03<ln->i tried again, same result.
20:05<ln->"FreeBSD на VmWare плохо работает" says google
20:05<TrueBrain>now that makes sense
20:06<ln->"FreeBSD na VmWare ploha rabotayet"
20:06<TrueBrain>still not understanding
20:06<gfldex>rabotayet is easy
20:06<gfldex>i'm sure you can figure that one out
20:06<TrueBrain>I can a lot, but I am lazy :p
20:07<mcbane>rabotayet = working or something similar?
20:07<+glx>"FreeBSD works in VmWare" or something like that
20:07<+glx>my russian is rusty
20:07<ln->ploha = bad
20:07<+glx>oh yes I miss the important bit ;)
20:08<ln->and neploha would be good
20:08<mcbane>well i know a few croatian =)
20:12<ln->well, i'll pick another *BSD then.
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20:28<TrueBrain>oh well, time to get some sleep :)
20:28<TrueBrain>it was nice talking to you gfldex :)
20:28<TrueBrain>night all!
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20:32<toresbe>"ya tvoy sluga, ya tvoy robotnik"
20:33<ln->sounds like kraftwerk
20:35<toresbe>Kraftwerk quoted it, I believe.
20:35<toresbe>it is from Karel Capek's play R. U. R.
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20:37<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11223 /trunk/src/industry_map.h: -Fix[FS#1306]: Rename and refactor adequately a function that actually returns void and set bits (smatz).
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20:38<ln->ah, it's rabotnik
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20:38<ln->and funny that слуга is a masculine, but it is.
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21:27<ln->done watching ST: TNG season 2 [x]
21:28<ln->warning: the last episode of season 2 is the worst of all times.
21:33<ln->interesting, Dr. Pulaski, the 2nd season doctor has acted in a few episodes TOS, too.
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22:32<Amix>this is so cool!!!
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 07 00:00:27 2007