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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-07

---Logopened Sun Oct 07 00:00:27 2007
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02:34<Alberth>hai all, anybody a clue how to prevent a computer player stealing my airport space when removing it for an upgrade?
02:34<mcbane>buy the area you wanna build on later.
02:37<Alberth>i did, a nice 7x7 space. then I put a 6x6 city airport on it (which was overcrowded quite quickly). When the bigger airport became available I wanted to replace my city airport, so I removed it to select and place the bigger one. However in less than a second, a computer player dumped its own city airport exactly where my old airport was.
02:37<Alberth>or can i buy tiles under an airport?
02:38<mcbane>nope dont think so
02:40<Wolf01>use the cheat menu and blow up the ai airport
02:41<Alberth>Often, this cannot happen. There are at most 2 airports in a city, and usually there is another airport besides mine. Since my airport name (and probably also the underlying data structures) linger around long enough for me to put the upgrade in place.
02:42<Alberth>in the mean time a third C player cannot create a 3rd airport
02:43<Alberth>cheating would be an option (in this case), but shouldn't there be a way to handle this gracefully?
02:43<Wolf01>try connecting the airport to some adjacent bus stations, so you can keep the name and the ai shouldn't put there his own.. at least if he doesn't know that pressing ctrl allow to place a station adjacent to an opponent one eheh
02:44<Alberth>I even didn't :)
02:44<Alberth>should do some reading up on cheats...
02:45<Wolf01>is not a cheat, is a feature
02:45<Alberth>your idea of adding another station should work. Will keep it in mind for the next time
02:46<Alberth>cheats, feature, it's all a matter of definition...
02:46<Noldo>so true
02:51<Alberth>I've been thinking about having the ability to do some form of planning ever since playing Sim City, and this is another case. Wouldn't it be great if you could sketch a new layout of tracks/airports ( :) ) on the tiles, kind of making a plan? I have a vision of blue lines lying on top of the real world. Then, once you are happy with it, you can do the actual construction.
02:51<Alberth>(although I do like the challenge of upgrading a rail plan without disrupting traffic)
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03:22<mcbane>beluga:s paperw.grf is disabled (description is papermill and paperworks for normal climates)
03:23<mcbane>*paper on temperate climeate
03:26<Rubidium>where would somebody be able to download that newgrf?
03:27<Rubidium>what don't you understand of that sentence?
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03:29<mcbane>well somone who wants paper paperworks and printig works.
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03:32<Rubidium>yes, and I wanted to look why it doesn't work, so I needed to know the place where to find it as it isn't on grfcrawler nor does google give any clue where to actually find it either
03:34<mcbane>sorry =D
03:36<mcbane>theres a link
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03:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11224 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: GRM for cargos has registration entries for both cargo IDs and cargo bitmasks, not only cargo IDs.
03:49<Rubidium>that should've fixed the newgrf being disabled
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05:45<TrueBrain>morning all
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05:50<mcbane>morning t-brain
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06:06<Phazorx>does it make anysense - i'm getting r11216 from 11218 sources
06:06<Phazorx># svnversion
06:07<Vikthor>Phazorx: The last two commits could be in another branch?
06:07<Phazorx>well not really in this case
06:10<TrueBrain># svn info
06:10<TrueBrain>will tell you which revision was the latest change in that branch
06:10<Phazorx>Revision: 11218
06:10<Phazorx>Last Changed Rev: 11218
06:10<Phazorx>Last Changed Date: 2007-10-06 09:20:27 -0400 (Sat, 06 Oct 2007)
06:10<TrueBrain>the Last Changed Rev is used
06:12<Phazorx>i'm looking at "file version" in exe info - Development r11216
06:12<Phazorx>and if i start it it says 216 as well
06:12<TrueBrain>did you recompile?
06:12<Phazorx>twice already
06:12<Phazorx>and scary thing
06:12<Phazorx>it was 218 yesterday from same source
06:12<TrueBrain>which compiler?
06:13<Phazorx># gcc --version
06:13<Phazorx>gcc.exe (GCC) 3.4.2 (mingw-special)
06:13<TrueBrain>ah :) Lol :)
06:13<TrueBrain>11216 is correct
06:13<TrueBrain>run: svn info src/
06:13<TrueBrain>my mistake ;)
06:13<TrueBrain>11217 and 11218 are configure changes, not related to the source
06:14<Phazorx>which means i need to force revision?
06:14<TrueBrain>nobody can have a 11218 version
06:14<Phazorx>cuz i cant connect to server that runs 218
06:14<TrueBrain>lol, bug in nightly system
06:14<TrueBrain>how nasty
06:15[~]TrueBrain puts it on his today list
06:15<TrueBrain>today = todo
06:15<TrueBrain>nice typo :p
06:15<TrueBrain>Phazorx: so yeah, you need to force it :p
06:15<hylje>TrueBrain: that somewhat nasty bug has been around for a while
06:15<TrueBrain>hylje: it happens rarely
06:15<hylje>TrueBrain: happens with anything that doesn't touch trunk
06:15<TrueBrain>hylje: that aint true
06:16<hylje>when the nightly revision is a change on trunk
06:16<hylje>it works as intended
06:16<hylje>but when it isn't, a configure on trunk produces the last revision that touched trunk
06:16<TrueBrain>hylje: so, it only happens when something touches trunk, but not trunk/src
06:17<TrueBrain>if it hits anything else, it works as intended
06:17<TrueBrain>and this happens rarely, as most commits are in src/
06:18<hylje>well i'm not sure whether just that bug had been fixed in the past, but thought i'd let you know
06:18<TrueBrain>the only bug here is that when a commit changes trunk/, but not trunk/src, and the nightly kicks in
06:18<TrueBrain>revisions are wrong
06:19<hylje>rev x changed non-trunk, rev x became nightly, configure autodetects rev y on trunk
06:19<TrueBrain>that doesn't happen
06:19<TrueBrain>when a commit is done to any of the branches
06:19<TrueBrain>the nightly doesn't get that revision
06:20<TrueBrain>and that is for as long as the new nightly system is there.. which is almost a year
06:20<hylje>then its fixed
06:20<TrueBrain>it was never broken
06:20<TrueBrain>"svn info $svn_dir | grep "Last Changed Rev" | cut -c 19-" <- this is used to get the revision
06:21<TrueBrain>Phazorx: I hope to have a fix in place that should prevent this from ahppening again
06:21<TrueBrain>of course that is hard to notice, as it happens rarely :)
06:22<Phazorx>TrueBrain: thank you
06:22<Phazorx>i was thinking i am going nuts after second recompile
06:22<TrueBrain>hehe, I can understand that :)
06:22<TrueBrain>the nightly system still bypasses the revision-check of the configure, which was needed long long ago
06:22<TrueBrain>but not anymore..
06:23<TrueBrain>I wonder if I can remove it now... :p
06:23<TrueBrain>(in the old days, we needed to run some custom patches on the Makefiles in order to make the compile-farm to work correctly for some targets)
06:23<TrueBrain>(Makefile change == M after revision, not ideal ;))
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06:29<mcbane>beluga george told me i should show that grf bug to you :
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06:33<SmatZ>wouldn't it be nice to have "dedicated" server more dedicated? maybe even with a ./configure option?
06:33<SmatZ>when dedicated server has its viewport on some wrong place, like in my savegame,
06:33<SmatZ>ViewportSortParentSprites eats 65% of time...
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06:37<TrueBrain>SmatZ: newsflash, configure has a dedicated option
06:37<TrueBrain>and use -vnull (or -D) and a res of 1,1
06:38<TrueBrain>and you will be fine :)
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06:39<Phazorx>what does power level output from power station do noe
06:39<Phazorx>any affect on nearby towns?
06:39|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
06:40<Phazorx>also how can it be - transports 199% of something...
06:42<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I use -v null, -D ... not changed the resolution
06:42<SmatZ>I didn't find the dedicated option
06:42<TrueBrain>check --help
06:42<SmatZ>yes, I see it now
06:42<SmatZ>I am like blind, thanks :)
06:43<TrueBrain>np :)
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06:45<Phazorx>power plant question anyone?
06:46<moe>sorry comp crashed
06:46<moe>did i miss anything?
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06:56<Wolf01>what do you think?
06:56<TrueBrain>looks cool :)
06:57<Wolf01>i'm doing it by hand, for all tiles :D
06:57<TrueBrain>crazy fool
06:57<valhallasw>why isnt lego an open dir ;)
06:57<Amix>what sort of program do you use for drawing ?
06:57<valhallasw>paint O-)
06:58<Wolf01>graphics gale
07:07<Alberth>any particular reason why "MoveGoodsToStation()" declaration is in economy.h rather than station.h?
07:07<Rubidium>cause it has more to do with economoy than with stations
07:07<Alberth>am refactoring the complex if at lines 2620-2625
07:08<Alberth>of station_cmd.cpp
07:09<Alberth>ah. wouldn't it be better to move its definition to economy as well?
07:11<Alberth>or is there a semantics for the *_cmd files as well?
07:12<Alberth>FYI: Moving the declaration compiles fine
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07:30<@Belugas>mcbane, thank george on my behalf (and say hello)
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07:33<Phazorx>Belugas: can you tell me if powerplant output has any affect on anything?
07:34<mcbane>did you see the pic i linked here?
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07:48<Amix>Wolf01: i need to know coding, how to set it to a .grf right?
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07:50<Amix>you draw them
07:50<Amix>then set the pieces tougether somehow, right?
07:52<Amix>how you do that?
07:52<Wolf01>i put them in a folder and use the 32bpp to load them
07:52<+glx>what do you want to do Amix?
07:53<Phazorx>glx: can you tell me if powerplant output has any affect on anything?
07:53<+glx>no effect at all
07:53<Sacro> hmmm, using GPU RAM as swap
07:53<+glx>escept it gives you money for coal
07:54<Phazorx>and is there some kind of curve assosiated to estimated total production of raw industry?
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07:54<Phazorx>cuz i seen it going to 200%
07:54<Amix>glx: i would like to make a roadset for openttd
07:55<+glx>8bpp or 32bpp ?
07:55<Amix>i dont know
07:55<Amix>whats the difference?
07:55<Amix>8bpp 256 colors?
07:55<+glx>8bpp -> action A grf
07:56<Amix>i have TvPaint for morphos. very good for pixeldrawing.
07:56<Amix>so thats why i ask ;=)
07:56<+glx>32bpp -> tar (openttd 32bpp specific)
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07:57<Amix>glx: 8bpp then
07:57<Phazorx>openttd: /home/ottdcoop/svn-devserver/src/network/core/packet.cpp:136: void Packet::Send_string(const char*): Assertion `this->size < sizeof(this->buffer) - strlen(data) - 1' failed.
07:57<Phazorx>Server has exited
07:57<TrueBrain>Phazorx: I believe that is a first someone managed to get that :)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause3>the advantage of 32bpp is that you can draw a big or vector picture, scale it down with antialiasing, and then use that
07:57<+glx>Phazorx: Ammller has this problem too
07:58<TrueBrain>doh, clearly I was wrong :p
07:58<Phazorx>glx: it's coop's dev box
07:58<Amix>but openttd isnt vector
07:58<TrueBrain>someone is exceeding the max packet-size :)
07:58<Phazorx>most liekly Ammller's issue is same one
07:58<Amix>its pixels
07:58<Amix>isnt it?
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07:58<+glx>yes bitmap
07:58<TrueBrain>the packet-buffer can't store the string it wants to send :)
07:58<Phazorx>glx: is there a fix
07:59<+glx>not yet
07:59<Phazorx>and it wasnt the case when a player has recently joined
07:59<Amix>glx: i have a bitmap drawing program
07:59<Ammller>Phazorx: do you have a idea how to reproduce it?
07:59<Phazorx>20 minute after last player
07:59<+glx>but I have a patch to show what it wants to send
07:59<Amix>glx: both deluxe paint for amigaos and tvpaint are pure bitmap drawing programs, like Paint is
07:59<Phazorx>Ammller: they say it's client sending soemtihng oversized
07:59<Sacro>yay :D
07:59<Sacro>DP2 ftw
07:59<+glx>Amix: read doc on
07:59<Ammller>who is they?
08:00<TrueBrain>glx: it wants to send more than SEND_MTU bytes... which is 1400... I wonder what it is it tries to send :)
08:00<Phazorx>Ammller: glx/TrueBrain
08:00<Amix>glx: what is the spesifications for each roadclip?
08:00<Ammller>TrueBrain: GRF infos
08:00<Phazorx>TrueBrain: could it be C/P ?
08:00<TrueBrain>Ammller: possible, yes
08:00<Rubidium>glx: that diff is utterly useless
08:00<+glx>grf info it's sure :)
08:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it is a nice first-indicator
08:01<Rubidium>TrueBrain: yeah... we now it is the grf info packet
08:01<TrueBrain>now = know :p
08:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: if you are 100% sure about that, then it is useless, yes
08:02<Rubidium>but they fail to think it is important to run the server in GDB for a while, so it can crash in there so we can actually gather some information to check why it is actually caused, because they think that autopilot is more important that fixing this bug.
08:02<Ammller>I just said, autopilot is needed
08:03<Phazorx>fail to think?
08:03<Phazorx>who are they?
08:03<Phazorx>can we script gdb and run it from within AP ?
08:03<Ammller>we could run a server, but I guess, it won't happen, if nobody tries to connect...
08:03<Rubidium>it's not somebody trying to connect
08:03<Phazorx>Ammller: it isnt passworded
08:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: but if this really is grf info packet, it should happen every time someone queries it
08:04|-|dihedral changed nick to dihedral|away
08:04<Rubidium>it's somebody trying to get information of the newgrfs
08:04<Rubidium>TrueBrain: no
08:04<Rubidium>TrueBrain: it is due to a specific order of different newgrfs that are requested
08:04<Ammller>TrueBrain: its not reproduceable
08:04<Rubidium>Ammller: it is, *if* you know which NewGRFs are actually queried
08:05<TrueBrain>isn't that order always the same?
08:05<Rubidium>TrueBrain: no
08:05<Ammller>hmm., it was one of the last
08:05<+glx>Ammller: do you have a server started somewhere?
08:05<Rubidium>TrueBrain: if the server has GRF X, Y and Z and I've got only Y, I'm going to request X and Z, not X, Y and Z
08:06<TrueBrain>how do you mean: request?
08:06<Rubidium>request the name of the newgrf
08:06<TrueBrain>ah, k
08:06<+glx>what rev?
08:06<TrueBrain>Rubidium: so still: one client should crash it over and over
08:06<Rubidium>TrueBrain: true-ish
08:07<Phazorx>a client with no grf
08:07<Phazorx>should crash it every time then?
08:07<Rubidium>Phazorx: not necessarily
08:07<Rubidium>as I said it is a SPECIFIC set of newgrfs
08:07<Ammller>its r11139
08:07<Ammller>with coop grf pack
08:07<Phazorx>Rubidium: we actualy have very few options since it is coop server
08:07<Rubidium>and specific does not mean ALL newgrfs
08:07<Phazorx>so either you have put pack or yuou dont
08:07<Ammller>and dbg is loaded too
08:08<Ammller>I could give you ssh access
08:08<Rubidium>Phazorx: you can have a few NewGRFs of the pack, which causes OTTD to request other NewGRF names
08:08<Phazorx>Rubidium: i see
08:08<Ammller>just need your public key
08:08<Phazorx>shall we tcpdump it or soemthing ?
08:09<Rubidium>GDB is *soo* much easier
08:09<Phazorx>Ammller: is running it apparentyl
08:09<+glx>now the goal is to "kill" it ;)
08:10<+glx>in a reproducable way
08:10<Ammller>I used it so:
08:11<Ammller>I am currently connected
08:11<Rubidium>now you should hope that your server replies before the OTTD coop server
08:12<Rubidium>though the might crash at the same time
08:12<Rubidium>it is registered to the masterserver, isn't it?
08:13<Rubidium>if it isn't, the OTTD coop server will crash and Ammller's one won't (ever) crash
08:13<+glx>I miss some grfs but probably the wrong ones ;)
08:14<Phazorx>Rubidium: if that's the case it is gonna be harder
08:14<Phazorx>since running gdb on brianettas box is demanding
08:14<Rubidium>Ammller: same newgrfs as the OTTD coop server?
08:14<Ammller>Rubidium: yes
08:14<Ammller>the pack and the update pack maybe
08:14<Rubidium>Phazorx: gdb shouldn't take much more CPU than without gdb
08:16<Phazorx>Ammller: shall i bring back the dev box then?
08:17<Ammller>hmm, yes, but also load the patch from glx
08:17<Phazorx>compiled in
08:17<Ammller>maybe its an other output on the coop
08:18<Phazorx>Ammller: how do we run it then?
08:19<Ammller>I runned it as usual with AP
08:19<Ammller>and then "catched" the process with gdb
08:19<Phazorx>can do
08:19<Ammller>as you see in my paste
08:20<Ammller>(in an other screen)
08:21<Phazorx>do i need debug symbols compiled in?
08:21<Phazorx>do i just stay in the shell or some extra commands are needed?
08:23<Ammller>cont for continueing
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08:24<dihedral|away>was that a tcp packet or a udp packet?
08:25<Phazorx>dihedral|away: wasnt your lib :)
08:25<dihedral|away>so when you query a grf
08:25<dihedral|away>and it cannot resolv the id + md5sum to a name
08:25<dihedral|away>it will try to send the actual file name
08:26<Ammller>but it will certainly happen on your server soon or later too
08:26<dihedral|away>with every subdir that it reverts to in /data
08:26<Ammller>if you use many GRFs
08:26<dihedral|away>32 atm
08:26<dihedral|away>i was more thinking in the direction of the file name being too long
08:27<Ammller>hmm, possible, they are longer since Version 6
08:27<dihedral|away>so - trunkating the 'filename' it wans to send to the part behind the last / should do the trick no?
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08:28<dihedral|away>start the server, with the same grf's, take openttdlib and query it empty the cache too
08:28<dihedral|away>and then see if it happens when you query the game
08:29<Ammller>hmm, its the same, when you start a client and query the server, isn't?
08:30<dihedral|away>because iirc the client will onlly query the grfs if they are unknown to the client
08:30<dihedral|away>but seeing that you have the grfpack in your data directory they are known to the client
08:30<Ammller>with a empty datadir of course
08:31<dihedral|away>that would do the same
08:31[~]Phazorx thinks of scripting autoconnect with copiying grfs one by one
08:31<Ammller>I tried that yesterday
08:31<Ammller>first time, if you query there will be some unknown GRFs
08:31<dihedral|away>make sure your data directorieS are cleared
08:31<Phazorx>glx: how does client forces "newgrf data request from"
08:31<Ammller>then you need to reload the server and all GRFs are known then
08:32<Phazorx>cuz i used blank client with no grfs and it only does regular query
08:33<Ammller>you don't ask me, but I would say, if the client doesn't know, he asks
08:33<Ammller>and because there is a limit, he has to ask twice
08:33<dihedral|away><host>&port=<port> fill in the balnks
08:33<Phazorx>Ammller: i didnt get that
08:34<Ammller>then wait for glx :)
08:35<dihedral|away>Ammller: i have diabled the cache on that url, so feel free to use it for testing
08:37<Ammller>hmm, all GRFs loaded on first klick
08:37<Ammller>do you internal load it twice, dihedral|away?
08:37<dihedral|away>i query a bunch, then take what i get back
08:37<dihedral|away>and query whats left over
08:38<dihedral|away>i only get between 2 and 6 grf data back
08:38<dihedral|away>data of 2 to 6 grf's ;-)
08:38<dihedral|away>and i ask for a max of 5 i think
08:38<dihedral|away>or 10
08:39<dihedral|away>what happens if one queries a server for one and the same grf, but has that grf listed in the packet more than once?
08:41<Ammller>how to reproduce that?
08:41<dihedral|away>with openttdlib?
08:42<dihedral|away>could make you an endless loop
08:42<dihedral|away>simply by telling openttdlib to request the same grf 5 times in each packet over and over again
08:44<dihedral|away>is Rubidium around?
08:44<dihedral|away>or TrueBrain ?
---Logclosed Sun Oct 07 08:48:20 2007
---Logopened Sun Oct 07 08:48:56 2007
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08:48|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 93 |-| +op [5] |-| +voice [3] |-| normalnych [85]
08:50|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 92 sekundy
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09:05<TrueBrain>what are you trying to do?
09:06<TC`>make some bot give me a listof command oslt :|
09:06<TrueBrain>for what?!
09:07<TC`>for like FAQ
09:07<TrueBrain>we have a topic
09:07<Eddi|zuHause3>who reads topics? :p
09:08<TrueBrain>a person who wants to know things
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09:08<TC`>am, for OpenTTD 0.5.3 a need an original part of the game?
09:08<TrueBrain>as for all versions
09:08<+glx>as said in readme.txt
09:09<Eddi|zuHause3>who reads readmes? :p
09:09<Ammller>TC`: do you like to buy it from me?
09:09<TC`>I read
09:09<TC`>jsut read...
09:09<Phazorx>glx/TrueBrain: how/when does client forces "newgrf data request from"
09:10<TC`>just* ; where i can get TTD datafiles ?
09:10<TrueBrain>TC`: go to a store
09:10<TC`>why i have to buy it when ot's open :|
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>the code is open, the original graphics are not
09:11<TrueBrain>the game itself is Open Source, the datafiles are not
09:11<TrueBrain>if you don't like it, paint us some graphics
09:12<TC`>i don't get it?
09:12<Sacro>that i shall
09:12<TrueBrain>@kick TC` Sorry, but we don't link here to illegal software
09:12|-|TC` kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Sorry, but we don't link here to illegal software]
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09:12<Eddi|zuHause3>there is no such thing as abandonware...
09:13<+glx>Phazorx: when you click refresh and you have "unknown" grfs
09:13<TC`>no realy i don't get it. The game is quite old.
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>so what?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>copyright is very clear...
09:13<Sacro>TrueBrain: actually, with them you have to pay $4.95 for their "service"
09:13<Sacro>i saw it in a shop in town for that much
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>it holds the lifetime of the author, plus 70 years
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>if the game is older than that...
09:13<Phazorx>glx: i tried conenctign with blank client (no grfs aside of mandatory ones) and it didnt do that
09:14<TC`>You are all from USA talking right now, right?
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09:14<Eddi|zuHause3>no, almost nobody here is from USA
09:14<Eddi|zuHause3>that's the EU law
09:15<Ammller>cu, need to go to a "Schützenfest"
09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>shoot something for me ;)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>or alternatively, bang the "Schützenkönigin" :p
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09:17<Sacro> hmmm, pretty
09:17<TC`>ok tell to LTU guys that they should care about rights..
09:19<TC`>sorry, ment Lithuania
09:19<Phazorx>you are from /lt, you should tell them
09:19<Phazorx>err .lt
09:19<Rubidium>Sacro: reminds me of ;)
09:20<TC`>it's hoppeless
09:20<TC`>at schools we use 98win :|
09:20<SmatZ>it is so cute!
09:20<Sacro>Rubidium: pretty
09:20<TC`>my sugestion would be to use linux
09:20<Phazorx>quite a change from win98
09:20<Phazorx>anyway - you can get ttd files if you want
09:21<Phazorx>but it is your choice to respect the author who made the game
09:21<TC`>You see, i would respect any author
09:21<TC`>if our goverment would respect us
09:21|-|Tefad_ changed nick to Tefad
09:22<TC`>our IT educational program is way behind..
09:22<TrueBrain>and what has your gouverment to do with the author of software not living in your coutnry?
09:22<TrueBrain>it is like: it is okay to kill me neighbour, as my gouverment doesn't respect me
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09:23<Sacro>hmmm, killing neighbours eh
09:23<TC`>the point is that goverment steals from us, so we can't live without stealing and making a living from it.
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09:24<TrueBrain>even better: I am allowed to heist a bank, as the gouverment steals from me!
09:24<TrueBrain>nice way of living
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09:25<Phazorx>goverment always steals from you
09:25<TrueBrain>by definition, yes :)
09:25<Tefad>do we still not know who has rights to ott property?
09:25<Phazorx>they even legalized it and called it "taxes"
09:25<TC`>no realy. have you heard that some lt biat*h put lithuanian goverment to strasburs court for not letting her to change her sex.. anyway she won and now OUR goverment has to PAY for her surgery to change sex.. like 20'000 Lt (7000euro) isntead of investing that money into our children PROPER EDUCATION!
09:25<Tefad>most governments give back to citizens though
09:26<TrueBrain>TC`: boo-hoo
09:26<Tefad>my government is bent on meddling in things they really shouldn't
09:26<TrueBrain>how many people are in that country? What? 5? So you each have to pay 1200 euro for that person
09:26<TC`>TrueBrain you are dutch?
09:26<Rubidium>TC`: it's not better than in virtually any other country
09:27<TrueBrain>TC`: be glad you live in freedom
09:27<TrueBrain>that you can say such things
09:27<TrueBrain>last week several Monks are killed because they tried to say things like this
09:27<TC`> all answears about my country
09:27<TrueBrain>as long as that is happening, you have absolutely no right of speaking
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09:28<TC`>TrueBrain my country people fighted for the freedom of speanking from russia
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09:29<TC`>1991 russia accepted our independency
09:30<Phazorx>that was soviet union rather than russia
09:30<TC`>just then, but our documents where made in 1989 (constitution) and iceland was the first who acepted our independency
09:30<Phazorx>and does it really matter which goverment steals from you?
09:30<TC`>Phazorx yeh whatever
09:30<TC`>i don't care
09:30<TC`>did you know that they started again "the cold war'
09:31<Phazorx>well very inetresting
09:31<TC`>they made a vacum bomb which is few times powerfull then a atomic bomb
09:31<Phazorx>i alwys thought these who invade
09:31<Phazorx>like iraq or afganistan
09:31<Phazorx>are ones starting the war
09:31<TC`>iraq = oil duh
09:31<Phazorx>rather than tghese who emphisize on protecting their borders
09:32<Phazorx>TC`: i mean general concept of starting thwe war is not in building defence forces but in aactualy attacing someone
09:32<TC`>if you want to understand what's happening in real, first you have to know historical facts
09:32<Phazorx>so if you build a fence - that is defence,and if you higher a mercenary to take out neighbours dog that is attack
09:32<TC`>the news s@!ks
09:33<TC`>Phazorx you're to much naive
09:34<TC`>a bomb is not a DEFENCE
09:34<TC`>it's like for counter-atacking
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>technically, a threat of counter-attacking is defense...
09:35<TC`>rather than making bombs they could spend more money to space program
09:35<TC`>to make mars a colony
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>which is why the cold war was cold, not hot
09:35<Phazorx>having a gun is not an attack, as well as telling everyone you have a gun
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>each side was afraid that the other side could launch a counter attack
09:36<TC`>well that is quite stupid, Eddi|zuHause
09:36<TC`>*as for those sides
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>who said that politicians would be intelligent? :p
09:36<TC`>Eddi|zuHause that is the point :)
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: try to go into a bank, and tell you have a gun :p
09:37<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i can call the bank i say that
09:37<Phazorx>or i can mail them
09:38<Phazorx>or i cann pass it via a friend of mine
09:38<TC`>Eddi|zuHause, buh here if you are a local person they won't believe (;
09:38<Phazorx>bringing the gun and stating that would be a form of attack
09:38<Phazorx>rather than information that i have means to defend myself :)
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the fact of you having a gun or not is really unimportant :p
09:39<Phazorx>i think war warm or cold is based more on desire to attack rather than having means for it
09:39<TC`>seriously i think you can bring a gun in the bank. But till you won't stick it out, nobody woun't blame oslt (;
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>there's one too many negations in my sentence
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09:41<Phazorx>TC`: which basicaly means that the action is what actualy means sometihng
09:42<Phazorx>rather than information
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09:47<TC`>how much does it cost? ttd ?
09:47<Phazorx>it is kidna hard to find
10:01<@Bjarni>but is it pirated?
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10:03<+glx>"SUITABLE FOR PLAY ON WINDOWS XP" <-- that makes me wonder if they are selling ttdp
10:04<@Bjarni>me too
10:04<+glx>or dosbox
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10:07<SmatZ>the comment under TTO - "Europe, toy land, South America, desert", and under TTD - "were not present in the original Transport Tycoon ... monorails" ...
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence does not parse...
10:17<+glx> <-- doesn't look very legal indeed
10:17<TrueBrain>it comes via Google Ads :)
10:18<Sacro>would it be nice to use the loading indicator to show speeD?
10:18<+glx>google doesn't car if it gets money ;)
10:19<SmatZ>looks like they are selling DOSBox, and showing games you can play with it... without actually mentioning what they do
10:21<Rubidium>Sacro: if you want to reduce the speed OTTD runs...
10:21|-|dihedral|away changed nick to dihedral
10:24<Sacro>i have an oil refinary in the middle of the map :s
10:26<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11225 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix: if a sprite shares the bounding box of another sprite, the offset is unsigned instead of signed.
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10:39<SmatZ>it can be done, but - when something moves "fast", it is absolutally unreadable
10:39<Sacro>SmatZ: ooh cool
10:39<SmatZ>by fast I mean ~ 100kph
10:39<SmatZ>maybe 200...
10:40<SmatZ>it is readable under ~400kph
10:40<SmatZ>but when the speed changes
10:41<SmatZ>it is unreadable...
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>"blob.hpp:376: warning: assuming signed overflow does not occur when assuming that (X - c) >= X is always true" <- i thought that was fixed?
10:42<SmatZ>you may try this diff ->
10:43<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: fixed in trunk, not in 0.5 branch
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i thougt that was fixed...
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>URL: svn://
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>Revision: 11225
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10:45<Sacro>can we have coloured loading indicators over industries
10:46<Sacro>so i can see instantly how much coal/iron ore my steel mill has
10:46[~]Sacro ignores hylje
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: same as you can recolour other strings
10:47<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: yes, i just wondered if a dev would write the patch
10:47<Sacro>or whether if i wrote it, it'd get used
10:47<dihedral>which file defines who gets the engine_preview ?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: grep your way through the code, like everyone else does
10:48<dihedral>just thought someone might know out of the top of their head
10:50<Sacro>hmm, 626T of coal waiting to be processed
10:50<Sacro>i think i may be overloading this coal power plant
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11:06<@Bjarni>dihedral: it's engine.cpp (I think)
11:06<@Bjarni>I forgot which function though, but once you found it, you are sure that it's there
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11:15<dihedral>thank you Bjarni
11:15<dihedral>i am just trying to find a way to stop the game offering me ships when max_ships is at 0
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11:19<SmatZ>dihedral: void EnginesDailyLoop()
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11:37<@Bjarni>dihedral: you should make it more general so it checks if the vehicle type can be build and not only check if it is ships
11:37<@Bjarni>imagine somebody disabling aircraft ;)
11:38<dihedral>Bjarni: that's what i am wanting to do
11:38<dihedral>i dont do dirty fixes
11:38<dihedral>or patches
11:38<dihedral>i prefer clean coding
11:38<dihedral>no reason to be proud of what one has coded otherwise
11:38<+glx>we do too ;)
11:38<@Bjarni>well, it's not everybody who works like us :)
11:38<dihedral>one should be able to tell by my last patch :-)
11:39<Vikthor>dihedral: Do you plan to allow for different vehicles for different players?
11:39<Vikthor>like palyer #1 can build only aircrafts and #2 only ships?
11:40<@Bjarni>I don't think that is an issue as you can't disallow a vehicle type for one player only
11:40<dihedral>i plan to not display a new engine preview if none of those engines can be built due to max_ships, etc
11:41<Vikthor>aha, I have probably misunderstood what you are trying to achieve.
11:42<dihedral>i just dont understand why i should get a preview offer for ships, if max_ships is = 0
11:45<Betalord>hm one suggestion:
11:45<Betalord>when you get a lot of money, like 100 million dollars, there should be some way to spend it, like invest it in something, perhaps in stocks or some new expansive projects
11:46<Betalord>because currently you can't even spend all the money you are making, there is just nothing to do with your money
11:46<Betalord>once you reach 100 mio or so, there is nothing more to do ... only to make more money, which you can't spend anyway
11:46<Betalord>so, come up with something to spend money ;)
11:46<mcbane>you can
11:47<Betalord>like what?
11:47<mcbane>spend money on industry funding =)
11:47<dihedral>Betalort: start playing bigger maps and harder settings
11:47|-|lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:47<dihedral>add a freight weight multiplayer
11:47<Betalord>founding new industries is cheap once you reach 100 mio, so that doesn't count
11:47<dihedral>then your running cost goes up
11:47<dihedral>on hard settings 100 mio aint that much
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: don't just suppress the preview, suppress the availability in any case
11:48<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: nono
11:48<Betalord>ah, I guess I don't play on hard settings ...
11:48<dihedral>because the patch setting can max_ships etc can be changed in game
11:48<Betalord>but anyway, wouldn't be nice to be able to spend your money somehow?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: that can be followed by "reset_engines"
11:49<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: it doesn't really matter
11:49<dihedral>so i should take all disabled engines out of _engines[] ?
11:49<@Bjarni>what matters is that you will get a popup about an engine you can't build anyway
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and if you disable the popup, you still get the newspaper a year later
11:50<@Bjarni>well, just disable the news and popup about engine types you can't build
11:51<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: are you sure
11:51<dihedral>i never get the newspapers
11:51<Betalord>what about funding a new city perhaps, for some crazy amount of money? like 50 mio, or even more
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>you can only disable the newspaper for all vehicles...
11:51<dihedral>Betalord: 100 mio aint anything
11:52<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: have you seen newspapers for disabled engines?
11:52<dihedral>i.e. max_ships = 0 and you got the newspaper ?
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever set that...
11:54<Betalord>ok, 100 mio dollars to fund a new city, and you becoming a mayor (meaning you control the local authorities, meaning you never get problems with it)? What do you think?
11:54<@Bjarni>look at last line of NewVehicleAvailable() (engine.cpp:344 in my source)
11:54<dihedral>Betalord: may i invite you to play on ne of my games?
11:54<Betalord>server name?
11:55<@Bjarni>disable the popup here if the max is 0 and the player will not get the newspaper for this type
11:56<@Bjarni>basically add (if (e->type.max == 0) return;)
11:56<@Bjarni>you know how to write that ;)
11:56<@Bjarni>write that idea just before the news line
11:56<dihedral>and before the preview window
11:56<dihedral>i.e. at the beginning of the function?
11:57<@Bjarni>that's not what I meant
11:57<dihedral>in if (e->flags & ENGINE_EXCLUSIVE_PREVIEW) {
11:57<@Bjarni>you need to do two things. One is to prevent the exclusive rights window and the other one is to prevent the newspaper telling about the engine
11:57<@Bjarni>I'm talking about dealing with the latter issue
11:58<dihedral>but can i not use the same call for the first thing too?
11:59<@Bjarni>the if(something) would contain the same in the "something"
11:59<@Bjarni>a check to see if the type is buildable
11:59<@Bjarni>well, it would be if(!something)
12:01<dihedral>so (e->flags & ENGINE_EXCLUSIVE_PREVIEW && e->type.max )
12:02<dihedral>as 0 would be false
12:02<dihedral>and anything > 0 would be true
12:02<dihedral>that would be for line 299
12:02<@Bjarni>wouldn't it be enough to just add:
12:02<@Bjarni>if (e->type.max == 0) return;
12:03<@Bjarni>on the line just before AddNewsItem()
12:03<dihedral>no because i would still get the preview offer, no?
12:03<@Bjarni>then the game will internally treat the new engine like now (which works) and then just skip the news display
12:03<@Bjarni>you should also do this for the preview window, so you should make this check in two places
12:04<@Bjarni>I'm not talking about replacing what you already did
12:04<@Bjarni>I'm talking about an addition to it
12:04<dihedral>what should line 321 do?
12:04<dihedral>ENGINE_AVAILABLE ?
12:05<@Bjarni>don't care about it. It will make the engine available, but since max is 0, the game already have a big don't care for this flag
12:05<@Bjarni>so just make the game set this flag
12:05<Betalord>Bjarni, do you read PM?
12:05<@Bjarni>but I'm busy
12:06<@Bjarni>too busy to reply to a "hi" :P
12:06<dihedral>and do i not have to add a check to EnginesDailyLoop
12:07<Betalord>heh, sure. Did you consider that "autoreplace only old vehicles" idea I wrote about yesterday?
12:07<@Bjarni>sort of
12:07<Betalord>what do you think?
12:07<@Bjarni>but I didn't really do anything about it
12:09<@Bjarni>dihedral: looks like you should do something similar to prevent the game from reaching line 258 "ShowEnginePreviewWindow(i)"
12:11<dihedral>line 237 = if (e->flags & ENGINE_EXCLUSIVE_PREVIEW && e->type.max) {
12:11<@Bjarni>that should do it (I guess)
12:12<@Bjarni>ensure that e->type.max actually works... you should likely write it in a different way
12:12<@Bjarni>I recall e->type to be a byte
12:12<@Bjarni>not a struct
12:12<dihedral>yes, ok
12:13<@Bjarni>so you should likely make a function for this check
12:13<@Bjarni>verifying that it's a valid engine type with an assert and all that
12:14<@Bjarni>no, that shouldn't be needed
12:14<@Bjarni>the engine array should only contain player buildable vehicle types
12:15<dihedral>Bjarni: again, i can change the patch max_ships in the game...
12:15<dihedral>so then _engines would have to be rebuilt
12:15<@Bjarni>so you should make a function to find the right max [type] setting based on e->type and return that value
12:15<dihedral>in the same file?
12:15<@Bjarni>that would be the logical place
12:16<@Bjarni>as it's only used in this file
12:16<@Bjarni>make it static too
12:16<+glx>it may already exists
12:16<dihedral>i have no idea, man - i aint a c/c++ guy :-P
12:16<@Bjarni>glx: where?
12:16<+glx>didn't check but it's a guess
12:17<@Bjarni>not in this file
12:17<@Bjarni>but it's possible that it's in some other file
12:17<dihedral>well - then i can grep fro e->type
12:17<@Bjarni>you should grep for max_ships
12:17<@Bjarni>or something like that
12:18<dihedral>the function would have to be similar to GetFreeUnitNumber (vehicle.cpp:2430)
12:18<@Bjarni>checking if it is in a function that returns the max based on an input of a vehicle type
12:18<+glx>CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure() uses something like that
12:18<dihedral>glx: which file:line ?
12:19<@Bjarni> switch (type) {
12:19<@Bjarni> case VEH_TRAIN: max = _patches.max_trains; break;
12:19<@Bjarni> case VEH_ROAD: max = _patches.max_roadveh; break;
12:19<@Bjarni> case VEH_SHIP: max = _patches.max_ships; break;
12:19<@Bjarni> case VEH_AIRCRAFT: max = _patches.max_aircraft; break;
12:19<@Bjarni> default: NOT_REACHED();
12:19<@Bjarni> }
12:19<@Bjarni>change this info a function
12:19<@Bjarni>vehicle type as input and returns the max for this type
12:20<@Bjarni>that's basically what you need and we can avoid double code
12:20<+glx>yeah this code is already duplicated ;)
12:21<@Bjarni>dihedral: are you following what we are saying?
12:21<dihedral>i saw the switch case
12:21<dihedral>yes that makes sense
12:22<dihedral>and that switch occures a few times in that file
12:22<@Bjarni>hmm, that function contains duplicated code
12:22<Rubidium>yup, Bjarni it's all your fault ;)
12:22<@Bjarni>the first line is an assert based on type
12:22<dihedral>so if i make another function with that switch, that returns the max value i can replace the switch with calling the function
12:23<dihedral>great :-S
12:23<@Bjarni>next time type is used is the switch and then default asserts with a NOT_REACHED()
12:23<@Bjarni> <Rubidium> yup, Bjarni it's all your fault ;) <-- why?
12:24<dihedral>of what type is the max value
12:24<dihedral>i mean - what am i returning?
12:24<@Bjarni>UnitID max;
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12:24<@Bjarni>isn't it odd of use UnitID?
12:25<+glx>it's an uint16 in config
12:25<@Bjarni>well, it ensures that it will always use something that can contain the max number of vehicles
12:25<Rubidium>Bjarni: good question ;)
12:26<Rubidium>I'd make that function return a uint
12:26<Rubidium>no, just uint
12:27<@Bjarni>it's not like size matters in the return value
12:27<Rubidium>not at this point, but it is bound to change sometime
12:27<@Bjarni>16 or 32 bit... just make sure that it's big enough to avoid overflow and uint will do that
12:28<dihedral>what does NOT_REACHED() do?
12:28<Rubidium>crash the application really hard
12:28<@Bjarni>it's like an assert() that always fails
12:29<@Bjarni>ensuring that a bug will be detected right away instead of corrupting the data and causing odd behaviour later, which makes it harder to backtrack the issue
12:29<dihedral>so i should keep that in there
12:30<@Bjarni>then the game will die if you call the function with a VEH_SPECIAL or something
12:30<mcbane>CIA gone?
12:30<@Bjarni>CIA-3 is here
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12:33[~]Bjarni wonders why mcbane didn't look at the user list
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12:36<mcbane>i did but not close enouth it seems.
12:36<Sacro>oh noes, a Bjarni
12:36[~]Sacro is enjoying newindustries
12:37<Sacro>though i get confused :(
12:38<Betalord>how can I change my player name in-game?
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm... 1TB HDD for half price... that sounds funny ;)
12:41<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: why?
12:41<+glx>open console, type "name newname"
12:43<dihedral>Bjarni: can you point me to a windows c compiler?
12:43<+glx>mingw/msys, MSVC
12:57<huma>Bjarni: how's your catcam? :)
12:58<huma>glx: you're on windows?
12:58<+glx>yes why?
12:59<huma>curiosity :)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: miham * r11226 /trunk/src/lang/ (16 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-10-07 19:56:41
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 48 fixed, 160 changed by TrueTenacity (208)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: american - 5 fixed by WhiteRabbit (5)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 5 fixed by tucalipe (5)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by thetitan (1)
13:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: catalan - 5 fixed by arnaullv (5)
13:02<dihedral>how do i ./configure in windows?
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>sh configure
13:11<SmatZ>will there be 0.5.4 ?
13:11<SmatZ>eg. is it worth porting patches from trunk to 0.5 branch?
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13:22<dihedral>well - sh is complaining about my homepath...
13:23<dihedral>and does not want to do anything
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13:23<dihedral>boy i hate windows
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13:26<huma>dihedral: yet you're using it :)
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13:27<huma>then the hate rate isn't high enough, i think :)
13:27<dihedral>no - the hate rate is high enough
13:27<huma>or you may like it :)
13:27<dihedral>but the love rate of css and hl2 is forcing me
13:28<huma>css? what it has to do with windows?
13:30<dihedral>i cannot play counter strike source on any other os?
13:30<dihedral>otherwise i am happy with my power book :-)
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13:59<mcbane>just noticed that the DB set v0.82 (XL) has not all refit options (like in brik industries + pikka (both needed together) missing gravel and clay for transport wagons)
14:01<+glx>PBI is designed for UKRS
14:02<mcbane>the db set also works with esc but there are also not all cargos to refit as option
14:03<+glx>I never said it didn't work
14:03<+glx>I just said it's not designed for all newcargos
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14:51<@Bjarni><huma> Bjarni: how's your catcam? :) <-- ohh, I moved way past that point
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15:08<huma>Bjarni: yea? how?
15:08<@Bjarni>by doing something else
15:08<@Bjarni>like searching for easy to get cameras to use instead
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15:16<Rubidium>SmatZ: that is not yet known
15:19<SmatZ>Rubidium: ok, thanks
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17:12<Betalord>in which year do you get intercontinental airports? :)
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17:21<Grey>night all
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17:48<Markkisen>Someone said to me that I could reset the map when I play, how do I do that?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean reset? you can start a new game if you exit to the title screen
17:49<Markkisen>I know that
17:50<Markkisen>But someone here in this channel said something about "resetmap"
17:50<SmatZ>yes, a long time age
17:50<Markkisen>Okey :P
17:50<SmatZ>I don't know about any function
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use the console that often...
17:52<SmatZ>I don't know how that function would work... reset all companies? make all towns smaller? or destroy towns and build new? reset industry production?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: you can start a new game with the same random seed
17:53<SmatZ>ah, yes
17:53<Markkisen> at 08:22
17:54|-|Markkisen changed nick to MarkSlap
17:54<SmatZ>is the random seed stored somewhere?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think so
17:55<+glx>there's a console command to get it
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17:55<+glx>getseed :)
17:56<MarkSlap>I think i'd played too much OTTD now, everywhere I turn I think on a better solutionof the road or the railway
17:56<MarkSlap>And I even dream about OpenTTD and how I build the most efficent and everything .D
17:56<+glx>it is "restart" to restart the game using the same seed
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18:16<Eddi|zuHause>that the graphics pack?
18:16<Brianetta>yes (:
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>could use a more descriptive filename :p
18:17<Brianetta>It'll be a link on the web page if this works
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18:28<SteamWilly>hi. i installed ECS Agricultural vector and have some graphical problems .. the new industries are mostly colored pink
18:28<SteamWilly>could anyone give me a hint?
18:28<+glx>wrong version
18:28<+glx>how are named your TTD grfs?
18:29<+glx>trg?.grf or trg?r.grf
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>mixup between dos and windows grfs probably
18:30<+glx><SteamWilly> mom <-- how to recognize a german ;)
18:30<SteamWilly>hrhr glx
18:30<+glx>well I asked for TTD ones ;)
18:31[~]SteamWilly looks
18:31<+glx>but I guess you have windows one, as you are using dos version of ECSAgri
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>trg?r means windows TTD
18:31<SteamWilly>ah yes!
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>then you have to get the grfs in the windows versions
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18:32<SteamWilly>thx i'll try it
18:34<SteamWilly>i know the priciple behind it - but i accidently downloaded the wrong versions .. ;)
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18:34<+glx>may happen :)
18:37<SteamWilly>seems to work now :)
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>if it's so common that grfs have a dos and a windows version, why is there no flag that can warn you if you mix them up?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's clearly a flaw in the newgrf spec
18:38<DaleStan>There is.
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18:38<Rafagd>but no one uses?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>then why is this not implemented?
18:39<DaleStan>No one uses it, yes. For one check that 99% percent of people get right in the first place, it's way too much hassle to maintain two separate NFO files.
18:40<+glx>couldn't grfcodec manage this "flag"?
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>this needn't even be in the nfo, the compiler could handle it
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>(like a preprocessor)
18:42<DaleStan>GRFCodec isn't a compiler, and it's not a "flag": It's at least three lines of NFO.
18:43<DaleStan>Actually, no, that's just for the Patch version check. The palette check would still need two, though.
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18:46<DaleStan>For DOS files, it's < -1*6 07 8D 01 \7= 00 01 \n -1*8 0B 03 7F 01 "DOS" 00 >. For Windows, < -1*6 07 8D 01 \7= 01 01 \n -1*12 0B 03 7F 01 "Windows" 00 >.
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>then i go back to my first point, it's a flaw in the specs
18:47<DaleStan>And, of course, if "DOS" or "Windows" needs to be translated, then you have multiple copies of the second sprite.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>it should not be that complicated... there should be a line that says "replace this with the compiler option" [whether you want to call it a compiler or not...]
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>then you just give grfcodec a flag if it compiles for dos or windows platform
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>and it automatically replaces that line
18:50<DaleStan>How do you determine what the decompilation should generate, then?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>does decompilation have to be exact?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>you can add a second flag that says that the flag has been set automatically
18:51<DaleStan>It has to generate something that will encode to a functionally equivalent GRF.
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can decompile the line to the actual line that then says "DOS" or "Windows"
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>or you can decompile it to the line that says "set this flag here"
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a problem there...
18:53<DaleStan>So, now you're breaking the most common way of converting between DOS and Windows: Decode the one, and encode the other with the appropriate -m setting.
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18:54<@Belugas>[08:35] <Phazorx> Belugas: can you tell me if powerplant output has any affect on anything? <-- none that i know of
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you go with the second way, that should still work
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>if the grf says "this is windows version", then remove that line, and give the line "replace with flag automatically"
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>(could also be command line option to keep exact line)
18:56<DaleStan>And how do you prevent breakage if the action B is misspelled, present multiple times, and/or not in Latin-1?
18:56<DaleStan>(most likely: "Dos" vs "DOS".)
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure why that even needs a textual representation
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>just a bit that is 0 for dos and 1 for windows [or reverse]
18:57<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: because the grf checks the host palette and disable itself
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>there are not exactly any other options out there?
18:58<huma>why can't i build a helidepot?
18:58<DaleStan>Because that's the way action B works: "This file is designed for the \80 version of TTD. \00"
18:58<huma>but heloport is available
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: fine, you use the text for the message box, but you don't need it for a machine check
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't see your problem...
19:00<DaleStan>Well, it's not there for the machine check. It's just an 01 or an 00 there. But failing to change both simultaneously is not a solution.
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, if the textual representation is misspelled, don't change anything
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>let the user handle that
19:01<huma>is it a bug or wip?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>huma: different airports appear at different times
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's how it works
19:01<DaleStan>Yes it is. The decode must produce something that will encode functionally identical. Changing text strings is not permissible.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: yes, that's why i said keep it. maybe give a warning, so the user can notice it
19:02<huma>Eddi|zuHause: i can build a heliport, but not a helodepot to actually buy a heli. it doesn't make sense.
19:02<+glx>huma: helidepot available in 1976
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>huma: you can buy helicopters at airports
19:03<DaleStan>Then buy the heli at an airport.
19:04<DaleStan>And if the coder chooses to use \7!, \7>, \7<, or some other operator?
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>that is nothing i understand...
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>this does not need to be foolproof... if you don't understand the input, bail out...
19:08<DaleStan>There are thirteen tests for action 7. All have a different byte representation. At least 6 of them can used for determining whether the palette is DOS or Windows. Which one should be generated automagically, and what should be done when a different one is encountered? Or when the coder does any of several hundred other things of varying obscurity?
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19:09<DaleStan>NFO is way worse than Perl when it comes to there's-more-than-one-way-to-do-it.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, just let me restate my opinion:
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>1) introduce some kind of preprocessor directive
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>2) replace that with exactly one way of determining DOS or Windows palette
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>3) upon decompiling, only check for that exact one way
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>4) if you do not find it, give a warning
19:11<DaleStan>And let my restate the state of the world: I'm not doing it. If you produce a patch for GRFCodec (And, if that breaks NFORenum, a patch for NFORenum too) then I'll consider committing them.
19:12<DaleStan>4) What if the GRF does not need different forms for DOS and Windows?
19:12<+glx>like action F for example
19:12<DaleStan>There are such GRFs. Town names and translations especially.
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>still warn, and let the user decide that
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>OR find a way to detect that no palette information is needed
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>OR introduce a "don't care" flag
19:13<DaleStan>Which is really quite easy. IF there are no real sprites, no palette information is required.
19:14<SteamWilly>does anyone use "extended cargo scheme"? - and if: do i need a special trainset to get the new goods transported? some are available for transport but not all
19:14<SteamWilly>only the opel-truck seems to transport anthing
19:15<toresbe>the opel-truck? A truck for Opel cars? Wow, that's a bit specific, isn't it?
19:15<SteamWilly>or depends iton the date?
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>i believe the ECS grfs are quite new, so you would need similarly new grf sets
19:16<SteamWilly>no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway
19:16<Sacro>What does "descarger" men?
19:17<+glx>SteamWilly: LV4 trucks ?
19:18<SteamWilly>sorry: LV4?
19:18<+glx>Long road vehicles v4
19:18<+glx>from the same place as ECS
19:20<SteamWilly>oh .. sems to be v3
19:20<Sacro>are they the nsfw ones?
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see MB doing a release of DBSet 0.9 any time soon...
19:20<huma>damn, these "goods" are so unstable. one day station accepts it, the other it doesn't.
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>get a bigger town...
19:21<huma>it actually has a subsidy for goods
19:21<SteamWilly>i can only find "Long road vehicles. Version 3 ¾"
19:21<SteamWilly>ah! got it
19:22<SteamWilly>bad link on this site directed me to olddownloads ..
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>question, in there is a signal in the middle of the station, does that really work in TTDPatch?
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19:23<DaleStan>Yes. Only as always-red or always-green, but they work.
19:24<toresbe>DaleStan: ...huh?
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19:24<DaleStan>The tile those signals are on is coded to be impassible.
19:25<DaleStan>Hence, the signals function as if they are always red.
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so it's not real
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. you cannot force a train through it
19:25<DaleStan>Not without rebuilding the tile to something that is passable.
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i understand now...
19:29<SteamWilly>glx: ok .. i installed LV4 .. but as expected it has no affect on the ability to refit the rail-wagons -> still no way to transport sand with trains
19:30<+glx><SteamWilly> no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway <-- well I asked if trucks were LV4 trucks ;)
19:32<SteamWilly>ok :)
19:33<Ammller>hmm, maybe the serbian train set has better ECS support?
19:33<SteamWilly>now i know the answer to my question and additionally am aware of new LV4 beeing there :)
19:33<SteamWilly>does serbian train set go with dbsetxl?
19:33<SteamWilly>or have i to decide?
19:34<+glx>dbsetxl is a full set so you can't mix it with another
19:35<SteamWilly>i'll give the serbian set a try
19:35<Ammller>dbsetxl can't ECS, you need to wait for 0.9
19:35<SteamWilly>ah ok
19:35<SteamWilly>dbstxl does at least transport sulphur
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19:36<Ammller>but MB seems to be more motivated since ottd has newindustries support...
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>Ammller: where do you get that?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>my impression of MB is of a rather "i don't care about open" opinion
19:37<Ammller>hmm, for
19:37<SmatZ>good night
19:37<Ammller>yes, he don't care
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19:38<Ammller>but since newindustries is in ottd, there are more guys asking him about it...
19:38<Ammller>and he likes to have a solution for using his set...
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>"Mit v0.82 im Prinzip alle ECS-Vektoren von George. Es gibt (auch bei ihm auf der Seite) eine Zusatz .grf für´s DB Set (namens "ECS vehicles" o.s.ä.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-Güter umzurüsten, allerdings ohne passende Frachtgrafiken"
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>probably something for SteamWilly
19:45<Ammller>its seems to be very ugly
19:46<Ammller>read forward...
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>i never tried that stuff...
19:46<Ammller>me too, I just looking for a good Alpine GRF
19:47<Ammller>Eddi|zuHause: you tried Alpine.GRF, with which Cargo Sets?
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>no extras, just alpine and dbset
19:48<Ammller>but alpine self has no new cargo, has it?
19:49<oamip2>thats ECS ;)
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19:50<Eddi|zuHause>Ammller: not technically new, but nonnative to the arctic climate
19:51|-|oamip2 changed nick to Amixosx
19:51<Ammller>yeah, I will use it with NewCargo from MB then...
19:51<Ammller>Beer and Fish...
19:54<Amixosx>and cherry coke
19:56<SteamWilly>thx Eddi|zuHause for the hint on dbsetxl
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20:01<Ammller>SteamWilly: serbian set not working?
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20:02<SteamWilly>i don't have allready testet it - i was afk
20:02<Eddi|zuHause2>what exactly was that?!
20:03<Brianetta>Can somebody test my bittorrent tracker?
20:03<Brianetta>You should get my grf pack
20:03<SteamWilly>sorry no torrent client installed here
20:04<SteamWilly>Eddi|zuHause2: i could not find any download regarding ""ECS vehicles" o.s.ä.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-Güter umzurüsten"
20:04<Eddi|zuHause2>appears to work...
20:05<Eddi|zuHause2>SteamWilly: best you read that thread
20:05<SteamWilly>yes ;)
20:08<Ammller>SteamWilly: last ECS GRF
20:08<Ammller>Brianetta: works...
20:08<Brianetta>Ammller: Cool. I must have a local issue then.
20:11<SteamWilly>Ammller: i allrady have the latest ECS grf from this source
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i am connected to 1 seeder from switzerland and one leecher from uk
20:11[~]Sacro whistles
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>but it says it has 4 seeders
20:11<SteamWilly>Eddi|zuHause2: this thread does not offer a solution for me
20:11<Sacro>i'm connected to one peer in the USofA
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>SteamWilly: no, but a big warning not to use that grf
20:12<Sacro>using KTorrent 2.2dev
20:12<SteamWilly>yes @ eddi
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>your location detection is wrong
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>as i am clearly not in the USA
20:13<Ammller>He is "zuHause"
20:13<Sacro>which does cross reference with Eddi|zuHause2
20:13<Sacro>but not with the flag
20:13<Eddi|zuHause2>well, µTorrent probably only looks at the top level domain
20:14<Eddi|zuHause2>is 1.7.5 the newest?
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause2>ammler probably has more upload capacity than i have download capacity :p
20:20<Eddi|zuHause2>"Leecher: 0 (429496294)" <- that does not sound too great
20:22<Eddi|zuHause2>unsigned overflow...
20:23<Ammller>I have a sharing rate of 1.99 :)
20:23<Rafagd>overflow is teh sux0r =(
20:25<Eddi|zuHause2>i have like 0.17 :p
20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>download time: 00:09:24 upload time: 00:05:13
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20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>average upload speed: 1.3KB/s
20:28<SteamWilly>serbian train set look cool. but what's the meaning of a "?" aside an engine?
20:29<Eddi|zuHause2>probably a missing character glyph
20:31<SteamWilly>no - not in the text
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20:31[~]SteamWilly makes a screenshot
20:32<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a missing sprite in any case
20:33<SteamWilly>ah ok
20:35<SteamWilly>thx for your help... i'll go to bed now...
20:36<SteamWilly>probably ... ;)
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 08 00:00:00 2007