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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-08

---Logopened Mon Oct 08 00:00:00 2007
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00:18<SquireJames>hello all
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04:27<TrueBrain>morning
04:27<boekabart>hi
04:28<Amixosx>morning
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04:41<Rubidium>good moaning
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04:45<TrueBrain>oh no, not this guy again
04:45<TrueBrain>does anyone know who this Rubidium is? I find him rather annoying
04:47<TheMask96>all dutch people are annoying ;)
04:47<TrueBrain>very true
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05:05<TrueBrain>any FON user here? :p
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05:30[~]Purno pokes boekabart
05:31[~]TrueBrain slaps Purno: don't poke, it is rude
05:31[~]Purno slaps boekabart
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05:31<TrueBrain>@kick Purno now stop doing that
05:31|-|Purno kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [now stop doing that]
05:31<TrueBrain>grrr
05:31|-|Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
05:31<Purno>wtf?
05:32<TrueBrain>yeah, that is what you get :p
05:32<Purno>what the hell is wrong with poking someone?
05:32<TrueBrain>it is rude! And then you switch to slapping? I don't like SM :(
05:32<TrueBrain>(not in this channel anyway :p)
05:32<Purno>you were the first one slapping
05:32<TrueBrain>DOH!
05:32<boekabart>Purno: yeah yeah
05:32<TrueBrain>@kick TrueBrain now stop doing that
05:32|-|TrueBrain kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [now stop doing that]
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05:33<TrueBrain>so, now I am back on my kick quota for today :) Sorry Purno, I just dislike dutch people :p
05:34<Purno>I hope your dutch too, otherwise it'd be rather discrimating
05:34<boekabart>fortunately he is. Low self esteem...
05:34<TrueBrain>:)
05:34<TrueBrain>very low
05:35[~]TrueBrain hugs Purno
05:35<TrueBrain>better? :)
05:35[~]Purno huggles TrueBrain
05:35<TrueBrain>:$
05:35<TrueBrain>@kick TrueBrain NO MSN ICONS!
05:35|-|TrueBrain kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [NO MSN ICONS!]
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05:35<TrueBrain>hard to keep up with the rules...
05:36<TrueBrain>I wish HalfLife OrangeBox was there...
05:36<Purno>eh... don't tell me you seriously have those kind of silly rules?
05:36<TrueBrain>no
05:37<TrueBrain>only when it annoys me
05:37<TrueBrain>and yes, MSN Icons really are a true pain in the ass to read on IRC
05:37<TrueBrain>but tha tmostly because nobody understands...
05:39<TrueBrain>lalala, pompiedom
05:40<TrueBrain>hmm, mouse needs new batteries
05:40<TrueBrain>annoying
05:45<TrueBrain>toen onze boekabart een boekje was, was hij aardig om te zien! Nu boekt hij alle boeken, en neust hij bovendien! (don't ask, I am totally bored)
05:46<boekabart>TrueBrain: then read and critize boekje's deepwater patch :)
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>i figure i really shouldn't ...
05:46<TrueBrain>boekabart: in fact, I was doing just that :p
05:46<boekabart>then you really _are_ bored
05:47<TrueBrain>told you
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05:47<Eddi|zuHause>actually, who was the guy with the tunnel patch, and where did he disappear to?
05:47<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause: what tunnel patch do you refer to?
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>the one with the video
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>arbitrary rails in tunnels
05:48<boekabart>never heard of it
05:48<TrueBrain>yeah, I know what you mean
05:48<TrueBrain>the guy publishing a ogg video
05:49<TrueBrain>SmatZ was it
05:49<TrueBrain>boekabart: this: http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/SmatZ/tunnel.avi
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>@seen SmatZ
05:50<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <SmatZ> good night
05:50<boekabart>TrueBrain: you even gave him his own directory on your ~ folder..
05:51<TrueBrain>yeah, so I could remember the name :p
05:51<TrueBrain>I might look stupid, but I have my moments :)
05:56[~]boekabart cannot play divx/xvid at work ;(
05:56<boekabart>:( too
05:56<TrueBrain>boekabart: this: http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/SmatZ/tunnel.ogg
05:56<TrueBrain>maybe? :p
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>rofl :p
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06:02<toresbe>hrm
06:03<toresbe>the tunnel feature realle looks cool
06:03<toresbe>it's not in SVN is it?
06:03<TrueBrain>nope
06:04<TrueBrain>I believe nobody has seen the code
06:04<toresbe>meh. It's a really good idea though
06:15<Ammler>you mean the thing from SmartZ?
06:16<toresbe>I don't know.. :)
06:16<Ammler>or enhanced tunnel?
06:16<toresbe>well, that tunnel thing what makes me can place lights
06:17<Ammler>ah, ok, there is no patch available for that
06:17<toresbe>k :)
06:17<toresbe>Are there any other tunnel improvements out - or in the works?
06:19<Ammler>hmm, not that I know off, peter???? is working on enhanced tunnels, but also no patch availalbe for, as much as I know...
06:19<boekabart>peter???? as in peter1138?
06:20<Ammler>yes, he does, no?
06:20<Ammler>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/blog/files/downloads/grfpacks/screens/testing/enhanced_tunnels.png
06:20<boekabart>afaik, he's kind of missing
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>what this needs is proper ground sprites
06:21<boekabart>what this needs is a patch that works first :)
06:24<Ammler>boekabart: is there a patch for that already? (a non working one)
06:26<boekabart>yes, ttdpatch :) (no, not that I know of)
06:26<Ammler>yeah, the screen is from there... :)
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08:00<Sacro>rawr
08:00<Phazorx>http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3568/coop7thmar2035ot7.png
08:00<Phazorx>ttrs issue?
08:04<Sacro>or sprite drawer
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause>what is "Industry Stations Renewal"?
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08:45<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: buggy facelift for industry stations
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't recommend it?
08:45<Phazorx>more variety of station tiles (as well as non track ones) but they work normally only with rails, monorail and mlev is a bit buggy
08:45<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i'd say wait till release, sionce curerntly it is beta
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually use monorail or maglev
09:02<Phazorx>well try it then
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09:08<Phazorx>http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6299/coop6thmay2036sq5.png
09:09<Phazorx>http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1940/coop17thjan2036xt8.png
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09:56<SpComb>hylje: ...and I don't particularly like paster, it's just the web framework that I've used and seems kind of quick to use
09:56<SpComb>pylons, I mean
09:57<hylje>:o
09:57<SpComb>but the load averages on marttila.de were between 4 and 14 for the past few weeks, and now that I've restarted paster (which was at around 170m of ram, RES), they're down to about 0.10
09:57<hylje>haha
09:57<SpComb>which makes me contemplate if I want to switch MyOTTD to something a bit more lean before its too late
09:58<SpComb>SpBotII's stagnating for somewhat similar reasons...
09:59<hylje>i suppose
09:59<hylje>i didnt manage to get pylons up
09:59<SpComb>writing cgi python apps was very enjoyable <3
10:00<SpComb>there wasn't fifty thousand lines of bloated (but admittedly useful) code between your code and the web server
10:00<hylje>:D
10:02<SpComb>things like routes are really nice features in Pylons that Django doesn't have (at least by default)
10:03|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1F0F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:05<SpComb>but if pylons is keeping you from looking at MyOTTD, I wouldn't mind looking at alternatives...
10:05|-|Csaboka [~csaboka@193.6.168.53] has joined #openttd
10:05<Csaboka>Hi folks
10:06[~]SpComb is starting to run into problems with his maths/physics stuff at university though, and needs to give those priority over MyOTTD, though
10:06<hylje>:<
10:06<hylje>i know the feeling
10:07<hylje>i suppose i could work on porting that thing
10:07<TrueBrain>hi Csaboka
10:07<SpComb>the web app isn't particularly complex, most of the real code is in the twisted daemon
10:07<TrueBrain>SpComb: I know that problem...
10:07<Csaboka>I have some problems with the OTTD source code
10:08<TrueBrain>Csaboka: with the source-code, you don't hear thatone every day
10:08<Csaboka>I'm trying to extend the animated tile list from 256 items to a dynamically allocated array
10:08<Csaboka>but I got really lost with the load/save routines
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10:09<TrueBrain>look at other dynamic arrays
10:09<Csaboka>in TTDPatch, you just give it a bunch of bytes and off you go, but OTTD has to do it in a more complicated way
10:09<Csaboka>well, I couldn't find any other array whose size can't be figured out before loading
10:10<TrueBrain>almost all arrays for big things are dynamic
10:10<TrueBrain>best example I guess is either depots or signs
10:11<Csaboka>but those use an array of objects, and that seems to be different from the RIFF format the animation array seems to use
10:11<+glx>Rubidium started to do something for animated tiles
10:12<Csaboka>oh, so I guess I'm working in vain, then, he must be more familiar with the code :)
10:12<+glx>he have problems with saveload too :)
10:13<Csaboka>in TTDPatch, I would have saved a length prefix, then the TileIndexes, but I don't know if this is the right way for OTTD or not
10:13<Csaboka>or even, how to read a simple uint32 from the savegame
10:14<Phazorx>glx, TrueBrain can you confirm if this is ttrs issue or soemtihng else: http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3568/coop7thmar2035ot7.png
10:14<boekabart>hehe, it was amazingly easy to make the grass-growth patch a lot nicer looking - without consuming extra bits: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=631617#p631617
10:14<Csaboka>there is SlArray for arrays, but ReadUint32 is static
10:14<Phazorx>http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6299/coop6thmay2036sq5.png http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1940/coop17thjan2036xt8.png
10:14<SpComb>the Java course is trivial, uninteresting and takes a fair amount of work, the Digital Engineering course has a fair amount of familiar stuff, and some new stuff, the Basics of Electrical Engineering has a good lecturer and is somewhat interesting (although there's a lot of maths/physics involved), but maths and physics... lectures start at eight in the morning, the practice sessions suck and I don't like those subjects at all
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10:15<Phazorx>boekabart: is there a way to county used and unused track tiles?
10:15<Phazorx>*count
10:17<Csaboka>I think I'll revert the changes I've made, I could only do the easy part anyway, I guess Rubidium has already done that
10:18<boekabart>Phazorx: there is a way :)
10:18<+glx>I can't get his diff :(
10:18<boekabart>but not in the current patch
10:19<Phazorx>boekabart: would be very nice
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10:19<Phazorx>especialy applied to coopers aproach to evaluate performance of network
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10:20<boekabart>Phazorx: well the 'usage' is a byte between 0 and 255
10:20<boekabart>0 = 'new / just used'
10:21<boekabart>so 'counting' is hard - an average number would be doable but it's exact meaning is tricky, although 'the lower the better' is a good indication :)
10:21<Phazorx>boekabart: days?
10:21<boekabart>no
10:21<boekabart>not linear
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10:22<Phazorx>i mean what does the count represents?
10:22<boekabart>Nothing: over time it in increases, on usage, it decreases
10:22<Phazorx>decreases or restets?
10:22<Phazorx>resets
10:22<boekabart>decreases, the first train doesn't clean everything away
10:23<Phazorx>hmm...
10:23<boekabart>if it would, it would be useless as a 'usage indicator'
10:23<Phazorx>what i meant is actualy that param across all tiles of same company
10:23<boekabart>the way I did it (non-linear), it will stabilize around a certain number indicating the track usage
10:23<boekabart>lower = more efficiently used
10:23<Phazorx>well logarifmic scale would make great sense
10:24<Phazorx>but i really want to know total count of all tacks per type and some number representing percentage used
10:24<boekabart>pls look at patch, I don't know the exact formula by heart, but I did it this way (loga-ish) so that it would settle around a certain value based on the number of trains per 'time'.
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10:25<Phazorx>and for making game more challening - property tax should be proportional to amounf of tracks
10:25<skidd13>hi
10:25<Phazorx>boekabart: i'll check the patch and from sound of it looks like you are on right track
10:25<boekabart>Phazorx: it's definately possible to take the average of the numbers and derive an efficiency number from it - not in % though
10:25<boekabart>ok. gotta go now
10:25<Phazorx>i'm just saying it would be ncie to have more than just visual representation... that data has economical/game menaing as well
10:26<boekabart>i know - it should be added to tile-info ? as wel
10:26<boekabart>well
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10:27<Csaboka>I have to go, bye
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10:35[~]SpComb rewrites it in PHP
10:36<hylje>ha
10:37<SpComb>or perhaps I should write my own web framework, if I knew the code in and out then I wouldn't have any of these problems
10:37[~]SpComb is looking at CherryPy
10:38<SpComb>web.py's templating is ridiculously bad, and I didn't like the weird globals magic either
10:38<SpComb>pylons uses threadlocal globals (imported via "import * from ..."), which are even worse
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11:01<skidd13>@seen Wolf01
11:01<@DorpsGek>skidd13: Wolf01 was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Wolf01> 'night
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11:23<SpComb>hmm, taking a big screenshot gets a little big unrealistic once the map size goes up
11:24<SpComb>8x8 was reasonably fast, but 10x10 seems to be taking a while
11:25<Rubidium>it's "only" 16 times as big
11:25<SpComb>a nice 219.8MB .png
11:26<SpComb>I'm assuming that there's currently no way to get a minimap out of a dedciated server in .png form?
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11:34<Wolf01>hello
11:34<TrueBrain>Hi :)
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11:36[~]SpComb ponders feasability of modifying smallmap_gui.c to draw the minimap as a PNG image
11:36<TrueBrain>not impossible
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11:37<SpComb>I'm getting closer and closer to patching openttd for use with MyOTTD
11:37<TrueBrain>do it :)
11:38<SpComb>I probably will, although I'll run lots of risks in terms of stuff breaking with different versions of OpenTTD and not compiling/crashing
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12:12<Ihmemies>youtube links aren't cool? :(
12:14<hylje>yes
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12:33<boekabart>!logs
12:33<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
12:36<Wolf01>boekabart, how's going with the water?
12:38<boekabart>Wolf01: Wet, very wet
12:39<Wolf01>do you are in deep water with that patch?
12:39<boekabart>I don't know - I've been getting feedback from the devs
12:39<boekabart>but if it's actually really considered - ask them :)
12:40[~]boekabart just opened a scanjet2400.. by force
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12:41<Wolf01>hammertime?
12:41<Vaevictus>can the advanced signals be used in an optimized fashion with bidirectional stations? or just with loops?
12:41<boekabart>it might be closeable and working again,, but the glass was dirty on the inside
12:43<Wolf01>dinner time
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12:46<SpComb>oops
12:47[~]boekabart is quite happy with the result of the cleaning job
12:47<SpComb>looks like a bunch of people tried to create MyOTTD servers, but there were some slight bugs in the add-a-new-server part
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13:07<mcbane>is there a way to log activity of network games if i host one?
13:07<TrueBrain>tcpdump
13:07<mcbane>because i dunny why but with ECS i getting a huge desync rate.
13:08<TrueBrain>ah, that kind :p
13:08<TrueBrain>what is ECS?
13:08<mcbane>extended cargo set
13:08<mcbane>grf
13:08<TrueBrain>ah
13:08<boekabart>mcbane: large map?
13:08<mcbane>1kx1k
13:08<TrueBrain>there are ways to debug it, but you need a dev to help you out I guess :)
13:09<boekabart>right.. probably what ah, the ttdpatch newindustries developer suggests in the forum
13:09<boekabart>not enough animated tile slots
13:09<TrueBrain>scx
13:09<TrueBrain>shouldnt' desync ;)
13:09<Rubidium>boekabart: that shouldn't cause desyncs
13:09<boekabart>well depends how the tile slots are being filled, right?
13:10<Rubidium>in the same manner in each client, or so it should be
13:10<boekabart>but ok, if it's not 'screen position related', it shouldn't
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13:10<DaleStan>Apparently, ECS uses its animation state for storing other state. Could the extra animated tiles be getting undefined info for their animation state?
13:11<TrueBrain>a good grf should check the flag if there are more-animations, not? :p
13:11<Rubidium>DaleStan: undefined maybe, but the same on all clients/servers
13:11<DaleStan>Nope. No way to know the moreanimation setting, and even if there were, there's no way to know if it's large enough.
13:12<TrueBrain> | (0 << 0x1C) // moreanimations
13:12<TrueBrain>then what is that?
13:12<DaleStan>Unless it's set to at least $TILES_ON_MAP.
13:12<DaleStan>That just returns on/off. Which could just as easily be moreanimation 256 (no change) or moreanimation 65535 .
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13:16<mcbane>another thing i noticed at creating the random map at bout 50% itis really sol for about 10%...
13:16<DaleStan>(It's also wrong; the switch is "moreanimation", not "moreanimations".)
13:17[~]SpComb straightened out the MyOTTD code
13:17<DaleStan>mcbane: Could you try again, but in English this time?
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13:17<SpComb>and tested/fixed the Add Server thing for the first time since I first wrote it
13:18<mcbane>dale: when creating a random map the progress is shown in %
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13:18<mcbane>right?
13:18<DaleStan>Anyone here can be assumed to know that.
13:18<@Bjarni>I think it's the sol part that we don't get
13:19<DerFraggy>hi guys, is there a specific irc-channel for ttd-internetgames?
13:19<mcbane>ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically..
13:19<DaleStan>"bout" isn't valid in that context either.
13:19<mcbane>missed an a..
13:20<@Bjarni>mcbane: do you mean that when it's at 50%, it stalls for a moment?
13:20<mcbane>yea
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13:20<@Bjarni>this would have been a whole lot easier if you just said so from the beginning
13:21<@Bjarni>and said it in English as well
13:21<@Bjarni>hi Brianetta
13:21<Brianetta>re
13:21<@Bjarni>wb Brianetta
13:21<@Bjarni>:)
13:21<Brianetta>re (:
13:23<@Bjarni>what's the idea about spam that don't sell anything or contains any links at all? :s
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13:23<@Bjarni>I just got one saying "bigger is better" and that's it. No product name or links or anything
13:24<hylje>it's marketing
13:25<@Bjarni>for what?
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13:25<@Bjarni>bigger HDs?
13:25<@Bjarni>bigger TVs?
13:25<@Bjarni>bigger cars?
13:25<boekabart>Bjarni: just say the word
13:25<@Bjarni>word
13:25<@Bjarni>err
13:25<boekabart>bigger words!
13:25<@Bjarni>the word
13:25<@Bjarni>THE WORD
13:26[~]boekabart pats Bjarni, he's a good boy :)
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13:27<@Bjarni>you know, it could be one of those unit enlargement thingies, but they usually tell you how to give them money for their worthless pills
13:28<boekabart>there we have it, bigger thingies
13:29<@Bjarni>but I don't need that
13:29<boekabart>she says that just to be nice
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13:29<@Bjarni>that was low
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13:29<@Bjarni>even lower than the belt area
13:30<boekabart>exactly there, in fact.
13:30<boekabart>sorry, that was indeed childish
13:30<boekabart>i was bored waiting for the stupid scanner
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11227 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-10-08 20:45:04
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 3 fixed, 236 changed by TrueTenacity (239)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 5 fixed by knovak (5)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovak - 2 fixed by lengyel (2)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 2 fixed by eusebio (2)
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14:02<Greyscale>Stupid internet
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14:04<SmatZ>hello
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14:08<+glx> <mcbane> ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically.. <-- probably because it can't place some industries and retries a lot
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14:10<mcbane>if you use a 1k x 1k map there is a lot space with setting industries on low.
14:11<+glx>but some industries want a certain slope, or distance too water, or ...
14:11<+glx>*to
14:27<mcbane>hmm
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14:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11228 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: implement the "moreanimation" feature of TTDP, so we can properly support newindustries.
14:59<Ihmemies>implement a GUI which is usable at 2560x1600
14:59<Ihmemies>and some kind of nicer scaling..... :P
15:00<Rubidium>can you be more vague that that?
15:02<Rubidium>*than that
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15:03<Ihmemies>what's not clear then?
15:03<Ihmemies>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui
15:04<Ihmemies>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling
15:04<Ihmemies>the gfx get absolutely too tiny at higher res
15:05<Rubidium>well... all problems are solved when you change the resolution to 1280x800 I guess
15:06<SmatZ>I use 1600x1200 on 21" CRT, and everything is nice
15:06<SmatZ>if you use 2560x1600 on monitor <=21", then everything is very small, yes...
15:06<Rubidium>even on my 1920x1200 at 15-ish" it's legible
15:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11229 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1307]: one could sell vehicles that were crashed in a depot, which would still yield money.
15:07<Ihmemies>you can probably spot a flea flying half a kilometer away on a rainy autumn night too
15:07<De_Ghost>what's wrong with that
15:07<De_Ghost>it's in depot
15:07<De_Ghost>lol
15:07<Rubidium>yeah, but scrap metal is not worth a penny
15:08<De_Ghost>yes it is
15:08<De_Ghost>why you think people recycle aluminum
15:08<Rubidium>De_Ghost: relatively to the price of the vehicle...
15:08<SmatZ>Rubidium: the actual patch for selling flooded vehicles was in http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1228
15:08<De_Ghost>i mean it's at least worth 200 bux
15:08<De_Ghost>lol
15:10<Rubidium>SmatZ: oh
15:10[~]Rubidium hates bugs that aren't really that dependant on eachother
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15:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11230 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1228]: one could construct trains out of crashed wagons and engines. Based on a patch by SmatZ.
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15:42<huma>hi
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15:42<huma>eh.. still no youtube goodies
15:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11231 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1311] (r11128): Someone misplaced a "static". This results in wrong bounding boxes for tunnels in X direction. Patch by frosch.
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15:55<dihedral>Rubidium: could it be that the vast amount of desyns you see lately are from moving the network_client.tmp file to My Documents?
15:56<+glx>why?
15:56<dihedral>because if you are connected to 2 games...? :-)
15:56<dihedral>you get the picture
15:57<dihedral>having 2 separate folders is not enough anymore
15:57<Rubidium>dihedral: only if you join them at the same time
15:58<dihedral>just a thought
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15:58<dihedral>so it does not keep the file pointer open?
15:59<Rubidium>only when downloading the game and loading the game
15:59<dihedral>why then not download directly into memory?
15:59<+glx>the save should be in a place relative to openttd.cfg
15:59<dihedral>or would that make things more complicated
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16:00<dihedral>why not relative to the executable?
16:00<Rubidium>dihedral: that would require a total rewrite of the saveload code
16:00<dihedral>k
16:01<dihedral>relative to executable or download to mem?
16:01<+glx>you can use 1 exe for many servers
16:01<Rubidium>the latter, though the former won't work on read-only install directories
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16:02<Rubidium>such as installed-by-admin-and-played-by-normal-user on Windows
16:02<dihedral>i was just wondering because XeryusTC desynced yesterday a lot
16:02<dihedral>i desynced on the day before a lot
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16:03<dihedral>right after joining
16:03<XeryusTC>heh
16:03<XeryusTC>my desyncs were caused by building certain stations
16:03<+glx>yours?
16:03<XeryusTC>yes
16:03<XeryusTC>from yesterday
16:03<dihedral>but you were the only one desyncing
16:03<XeryusTC>i desynced everytime i build stations from a certain class
16:04<XeryusTC>i know
16:04<dihedral>and that like 10x in a row
16:04<dihedral>all right after joining
16:04<dihedral>i was on my nightly game the other day and 1 guy got a connection lost and 2 others got a desync... at the same time
16:06<dihedral>so a desync is when the seed differes right?
16:06<@Bjarni>sounds like a desync bug
16:06<dihedral>which happens when the client map is different from that of the server, right?
16:06<@Bjarni>like something happened at the server and not at any of the clients
16:07<@Bjarni>yeah
16:07<@Bjarni>and the server map is presumed to be correct
16:07<dihedral>Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected....
16:07<@Bjarni>so all clients having a different map (or vehicle count/location) will desync
16:07<dihedral>then why did i not...?
16:07<@Bjarni><dihedral> Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected.... <-- odd
16:08<@Bjarni>really odd
16:08<dihedral>i had been desyncing all the time before that
16:08<@Bjarni>try to figure out how to reproduce this
16:08<dihedral>then was connected for like 10 mins and the other 3 guys flew out
16:08<dihedral>Bjarni: i wish i could
16:08<@Bjarni>you use a little endian CPU, right?
16:09<dihedral>AMD yes
16:09<@Bjarni>I don't care for brand, only if it could be caused by different endianess
16:09<dihedral>for both, server & workstation
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: are you aware that your tracker has a overflow issue with the client count?
16:11<@Bjarni>I wish I could say something clever regarding what could have caused this desync and a plan on fixing it, but right now I can't think of anything :(
16:12<dihedral>Bjarni: in theory, if it was the endianness, i should be able to play on my PPC mac and never desync...
16:12<@Bjarni>well
16:12<@Bjarni>usually it's the PPCs that desyncs
16:12|-|Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: bbl]
16:12<dihedral>IIRC they support some kind of switching between the both
16:13<@Bjarni>but yes, it could be interesting to test it on PPC
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16:13<dihedral>well - i'll be doing that tomorrow evening then :-)
16:13<@Bjarni>I know how PPC works ;)
16:13<TrueBrain>dihedral / XeryusTC: I missed like 90% of the story, but do I get it right that XeryusTC desynced (as the only person) when he tried to build something?
16:13<TrueBrain>where the rest didn't desync?
16:13<@Bjarni>and I know that PPC OpenTTD for OSX is big endian
16:13<dihedral>TrueBrain: yes
16:13<TrueBrain>dihedral: and did the building he was trying to build really built on your side?
16:13<dihedral>Bjarni: well i did not know :-D
16:14<dihedral>TrueBrain: i have no idea what he was building
16:14<@Bjarni>I made the port. I should know
16:14<dihedral>TrueBrain: but that would let XeryusTC have desynced ONCE, and not 10x
16:14<dihedral>Bjarni: :-)
16:14<TrueBrain>so the case is simple: either the DoCommand issued a Random() outside the DC_EXEC block, or the server gave a CMD_ERROR where the client of XeryusTC said it was okay
16:15<TrueBrain>my bet is on the first case ;)
16:15<@Bjarni>I also know that on G3 and G4, the game will use an opcode to read an int in reversed byte order, hence switching endianess in hardware
16:15<dihedral>TrueBrain: but XeryusTC desynced like 10x right after connecting again
16:15<TrueBrain>dihedral: after building the station again, right?
16:15<XeryusTC>not right after comming in
16:15<dihedral>like within a second and 15 i'd say
16:15<XeryusTC>after i build stations from a certain newgrf file
16:15<dihedral>TrueBrain: i dont think he would have had that chance every time
16:15<TrueBrain>so it is really the building that caused the desync
16:15<XeryusTC>the stations were build, but were the default station when i rejoined
16:16<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: funny
16:16<TrueBrain>and the grfs of your client are 100% in sync with the server?
16:16<dihedral>TrueBrain: well - i build nothing when it happened on my nightly :-)
16:16<DaleStan>Isn't newgrf sync guaranteed?
16:16<TrueBrain>dihedral: never confuse 2 desyncs
16:16<dihedral>TrueBrain: well now i know :-)
16:16<@Bjarni>dihedral: basically PPC OSX and the CPUs it uses are big endian (Apple used PPC 7xx and 9xx). PPC 4xx can switch to a little endian mode, but I don't think 7xx and 9xx can do that
16:17<TrueBrain>dihedral: if XeryusTC said it happened when he build something, it happens because of that. If you desync too, that can be a very different reason ;)
16:17<XeryusTC>TrueBrain: well, i could join the server, so it should be
16:17<Rubidium>DaleStan: not 100%; one could sneak in a different newgrf just after the checks have been done, but before the newgrfs are loaded.
16:17<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: should be and are, are 2 different worlds ;)
16:17<TrueBrain>someone could modify the client to give always the right md5
16:17<XeryusTC>but, i deleted the directory and copied exes from another ottd copy and put the correct newgrfs and stuff in there
16:17<XeryusTC>and it worked again
16:17<TrueBrain>and I can think up some other clever things to avoid it :p
16:17<XeryusTC>might also be because i removed static newgrfs in that proces
16:18<XeryusTC>i also had this kind of thing before, but i dont know how to reproduce it
16:18<TrueBrain>so you currently have no way to reproduce?
16:18<TrueBrain>next time, copy your whole map which caused a desync reproducable, before starting to get it to work again ;)
16:18<TrueBrain>that is, if you want to be of any use to us ;) :p
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16:19<dihedral>what if overwriting newgrfs with their newer versions
16:19<XeryusTC>well, i will
16:19<dihedral>while the game is running
16:19<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: tnx ;) :)
16:19<XeryusTC>dihedral: doesnt matter if it was running
16:19<TrueBrain>dihedral: in theory the grf-specs are already in the memory
16:19<dihedral>well - it did not matter to my server...
16:19<XeryusTC>even after restarting the game it still happened
16:19<TrueBrain>the sprites aren't though
16:19<dihedral>sorry - it did matter to my server
16:20<dihedral>it was sending md5sums in the info packet that were never resolved to names
16:21<dihedral>or grfid's for that fact - not sure
16:21<dihedral>i extracted the ottdc update pack into the data dir of my server while it was running
16:22<dihedral>and issued a newgame
16:22<dihedral>:-P
16:22[~]dihedral is bad
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16:22<dihedral>yes - i will admit that i was being lazy :-)
16:23<dihedral>any how - afaik - XeryusTC was not the only guy to have desynct a lot on that game
16:23<dihedral>there were a few desyncs the day before, by i-dont-know-who... :-(
16:24<dihedral>perhaps one could find them in the irc log file :)
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16:27<dihedral>well - night time for me
16:28<dihedral>@monologue
16:28<dihedral>shame :-)
16:28<TrueBrain>night dihedral :)
16:28<mcbane>night dihedral
16:28<SmatZ>Rubidium:
16:28<dihedral>and thanks for answering that question i had :-)
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16:29<SmatZ>r11230 uses call to DeleteVehicleChain
16:29<SmatZ>where is
16:29<SmatZ> assert(v->type != VEH_TRAIN && v->type != VEH_ROAD);
16:29<SmatZ>it doesn't work for trains/rvs
16:29<SmatZ>but I wonder why
16:29<SmatZ>eg. current trunk ends in assert when deleting flooded vehicles
16:30<SmatZ>anyway - it says my patch was incorrect, too
16:30<SmatZ>probably
16:34<SmatZ>actually I see no reason why this assert is there
16:37<Rubidium>probably so-called histerical raisins
16:40<Phazorx>Can someone confirm if this is ttrs issue or sometihng else: http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3568/coop7thmar2035ot7.png
16:41<Phazorx>http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6299/coop6thmay2036sq5.png & http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1940/coop17thjan2036xt8.png
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16:42<Rubidium>Phazorx: first try to reproduce it with a somewhat smaller list of NewGRFs
16:44<Phazorx>Rubidium: it hapepnds on a save with only first 3
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16:46<Rubidium>and when you disable the other two, or move them around?
16:47<Wolf01>Phazorx, i confirm it, it happens with the firestation to me, sometimes with the hospital
16:48<Phazorx>game wont load if i disable pbi
16:49<Rubidium>anyhow, I'm gone
16:49<Phazorx>and rearranging has no effect
16:49<Wolf01>'night
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21:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11232 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r10495): industry tile override works like house override, so handle it in the same way
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22:03<fjb>hi
22:04<fjb>Anybody still awake?
22:04<+glx>I am but not for a long time ;)
22:05<fjb>I should be sleeping. But I got some problems with the new newindustries.
22:05<DaleStan>It generally works better to just ask the real question. Then you don't have to deal with the not-an-answer to your not-a-questions.
22:06<fjb>Be patient, my english is not that fast at this time.
22:06<fjb>I tried them out with Georges ECS-Sets.
22:07<fjb>I discovered that there are at most 23 indutries possible.
22:09<fjb>Which that are depend on the sequence the ECS vectors are loaded.
22:10<fjb>Eg: if the agriculture vector is loaded after the wood vector, then there are no woods in the game.
22:13<fjb>The problem occurs with the night builds 11208 and 11226.
22:13<fjb>The ECS vectors are the latest GRFs from Georges site.
22:13<fjb>Is this a known restriction?
22:14<+glx>did you check in ttdpatch?
22:14<fjb>Sorry, no Wndows here.
22:14<fjb>Windows
22:14<DaleStan>So? Patch works in wine too.
22:14<DaleStan>In fact, Patchman has no Windows either.
22:15<fjb>Ok, then I have to install wine tomorrow.
22:23<+glx>I just compared using same grfs in same order
22:23<+glx>I have 33 industries in ttdp and 32 in ottd
22:24<fjb>Oh, what is your order? I only got 23.
22:24<+glx>ordered by grfid
22:25<+glx>and I am in scenario editor
22:30<fjb>Thank you. Now I'm getting 32 too. Never looked at that id.
22:31<fjb>I also tryed it in the scenery editor.
22:31<+glx>but there's still a missing one :)
22:31<fjb>Which one is that?
22:31<+glx>tourist center
22:32<+glx>and some industries don't accept/produce the same in ttdp and ottd
22:32<+glx>more bugs to fix ;)
22:32<fjb>But at least it is mostly working.
22:33<fjb>Belugas did a great job.
22:33[~]glx needs to sleep :)
22:33<+glx>good night
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22:34<fjb>Does a log of this conversation exist? Or do we have to fill in a bug report?
22:34<fjb>Anyway, I have to sleep, too.
22:38<fjb>good night
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 09 00:00:36 2007