#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-19

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---	Log	opened Fri Oct 19 00:00:53 2007
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02:45	<dihedral>	morning :-)
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04:36	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11294 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIIndustry::IsCargoAccepted + Valuator (on request by Kilinich)
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05:27	[~]	dihedral greets TrueBrain
05:32	<dihedral>	TrueBrain: can you pin 2 threads for me?
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05:39	<Ammller>	dihedral: pin the 1. thread and link there to the 2.
05:40	<dihedral>	the second thread is in the graphics section
05:40	<dihedral>	2 different groups of people we are getting hold of
05:41	<Ammller>	ah, ok
05:41	<dihedral>	:-)
05:41	<Ammller>	thought, they are in the same group :)
05:41	<dihedral>	kinda ;-D
05:42	<TrueBrain>	dihedral: maybe it is time for you to ask an other moderator, as you start to annoy me by how many times you can ask the same question over and over and over
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05:47	<dihedral>	TrueBrain: i asked you yesterday and all you said was you had no time
05:47	<dihedral>	that is not a yes or a no
05:48	<dihedral>	but none the less - sorry for annoying you
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05:55	<dihedral>	TrueBrain: if you still feel like it ;-) 34429 and 34514
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06:32	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11295 /branches/noai/ (10 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: put Engine things in AIEngine, and rename functions as such. Most noticable: FindBestXXXVehicle -> FineBestXXXEngine
06:46	<TrueBrain>	bah, I can't remember my myottd login :p
06:46	<TrueBrain>	lol
06:47	<SpComb>	and it doesn't know your email
06:47	<TrueBrain>	poor poor system :p
06:47	<SpComb>	nor are you able to change your own password
06:48	<SpComb>	yeah, I haven't had the time to make it a good system
06:48	<TrueBrain>	I just can't remember what I filled in :p
06:48	<SpComb>	used my time to concentrate on other features
06:48	<TrueBrain>	somehow/...
06:48	<TrueBrain>	I am now logged in
06:48	<TrueBrain>	:s
06:48	<SpComb>	if you tell me what password you want it to have, I can change it for you manually
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06:48	<TrueBrain>	nevermind
06:49	<TrueBrain>	I wonder, I stopepd my server
06:49	<TrueBrain>	but now it is running
06:49	<TrueBrain>	weird
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06:49	<SpComb>	I only fixed the stopping/starting somewhat recently
06:49	<TrueBrain>	you still need to start it before you can change settings :p
06:49	<SpComb>	indeed
06:50	<TrueBrain>	you made a nice system :)
06:50	[~]	SpComb started the rewrite of the part that would make it possible to configure it properly
06:51	<SpComb>	i.e. you can change the server name and password at runtime, and it doesn't try and store all the configuration in the database anymore
06:51	<SpComb>	the current issue is how I'd need to store the configuration in two places, in OpenTTD itself, and in the config file
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07:07	<dihedral>	SpComb: you might like http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/network_nextgame_reload_cfg.patch
07:08	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11296 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_vehicle.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: typo in comment of AIVehicle::GetName
07:09	<SpComb>	I was thinking more in terms of making openttd.cfg just to means to persist the settings across server restarts, and also for use when the server itself is off
07:10	<SpComb>	either via having OpenTTD write out the config every time it's changed, or doing that in python
07:10	<SpComb>	so if I change some settings, then I simply modify them inside OpenTTD, and write out to the config file. If I want to know what the value for some setting is, I ask OpenTTD
07:11	<SpComb>	I'm pretty sure that I'll write some kind of more useable control interface for OpenTTD to replace the console
07:11	<SpComb>	packed binary data via stdin/out, with some kind of proper command/response/event protocol
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07:16	<dihedral>	SpComb: will that not in some cases fail if the game e.g. is running?
07:17	<SpComb>	depends on what settings you change, you can't change everything, of course
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07:18	<dihedral>	say you want to set the difficulty :-)
07:19	<SpComb>	I'm not really familiar with how all of the settings work, but e.g. server name and password can be changed at runtime
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07:27	<dihedral>	yes, but port, diff level and some others cannot :-)
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08:03	<sdziallas>	hi! i'm working for the german computer magazine c't and we are currently preparing are cd with games on it
08:04	<TrueBrain>	welcome sdziallas
08:04	<sdziallas>	hi!
08:04	<sdziallas>	i would like to ask you whether it would be possible to put openTTD on it
08:04	<TrueBrain>	OpenTTD is GPL, so you are free to distribute it, as long as you tell people where to find the source-files (which isn't a problem if you use our official binaries)
08:05	<TrueBrain>	the main problem would be the original TT graphics
08:05	<TrueBrain>	which you can not distribute, as that is licensed to Micropose
08:05	<+glx>	Atari now
08:05	<sdziallas>	ok! thank you! i only thought it would be better to ask the authors first
08:05	<TrueBrain>	It is very kind of you :)
08:05	<TrueBrain>	and of course we would love to get a (free) copy of it ;)
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08:06	<sdziallas>	ok!
08:06	<sdziallas>	i will talk to one of the other editors
08:07	<mikl>	Wasn't there an upgrade screen somewhere for trains - replace model X with Y...?
08:07	<sdziallas>	but i think this woon't be a problem
08:07	<mikl>	Can't find it in r11235
08:07	<TrueBrain>	mikl: check the wiki, but it is in your vehicle-overview window
08:07	<+glx>	mikl: vehicle list, manage list
08:07	<+glx>	you can't miss it
08:07	<TrueBrain>	sdziallas: :)
08:08	<mikl>	ah, yes...
08:08	<mikl>	I must be blind :)
08:09	<sdziallas>	TrueBrain: again thank you, i will organize some things and contact you soon.
08:09	<TrueBrain>	sdziallas: no problem :) To more people play OpenTTD, the happier we become :)
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08:10	<sdziallas>	TrueBrain: that somehow logic - but since it is a great game - we would like to bring it to the people :-)
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08:14	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11297 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: in AIEngine, added: GetName, GetCargoType, GetCapacity, GetReliability, GetMaxSpeed, GetVehicleType, and GetPrice (on request by Kilinich)
08:15	<dihedral>	TrueBrain: you are really doing quite a lot of noai stuff recently
08:16	<TrueBrain>	dihedral: just a bunch of copy/paste work, where people request functions
08:16	<dihedral>	still
08:16	<dihedral>	it's nice to see
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08:27	<TrueBrain>	tnx :)
08:27	<dihedral>	do water colors in the grf's cycle on their own, or does that need to be coded in the grf?
08:27	<TrueBrain>	colours in general cycle
08:27	<TrueBrain>	nothing you can do about that
08:27	<TrueBrain>	a completely different subsystem of the game :)
08:27	<dihedral>	AntB just wanted to know
08:27	<TrueBrain>	he can ask for himself, not? :p
08:28	<dihedral>	he asked in the forums :-)
08:28	<AntB>	i did on TTforums
08:28	<TrueBrain>	ah :p
08:28	<dihedral>	:-P
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08:28	<TrueBrain>	hmm, I can't find the image 1-2-3
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08:29	<TrueBrain>	but colors 216-250 or something animate
08:29	[~]	AntB will try it anyway
08:29	<frosch123>	see docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif
08:30	<TrueBrain>	frosch123: I was trying to find an online version.. .:p
08:30	<frosch123>	Upload it to the wiki
08:30	<TrueBrain>	http://hg.openttd.org:8000/svn/trunk.hg/raw-file/a422aa3a9600/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif
08:31	<TrueBrain>	217-244
08:31	<AntB>	and its animated! thx! :D
08:31	<TrueBrain>	you should be able to load your own animation via a newgrf
08:31	<TrueBrain>	but I don't know enough about newgrf to tell you more about that :p
08:32	<AntB>	I haven't got a clue myself, but anything is worth a shot :D
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08:40	<@Belugas>	simple: start at http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs
08:40	<@Belugas>	the rest is easy ;)
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08:47	<Phazorx>	http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/blog/files/pictures/map.zones.png << candidate for #wwottdgd map :o)
08:47	<Roujin>	ooo
08:47	<Roujin>	thats beautiful :>
08:47	<hylje>	:> :>
08:47	<TrueBrain>	very nice
08:47	<Roujin>	2048^2?
08:48	<Phazorx>	yup
08:48	<TrueBrain>	http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/heightmaps/test102.png <- play on this! :p
08:48	<Phazorx>	TrueBrain: wheres the rest of europe?
08:48	<TrueBrain>	the rest of europe isn't important!
08:48	<dihedral>	lol
08:48	<dihedral>	too much water
08:48	[~]	dihedral coughs
08:49	<TrueBrain>	http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/heightmaps/test75.png <- lol, poor quality :p
08:49	<Phazorx>	TrueBrain: that map misses black sea
08:49	<Phazorx>	somehow...
08:49	<TrueBrain>	Phazorx: is above sea-level
08:49	<TrueBrain>	it is a heightmap
08:49	<Phazorx>	really ?
08:50	<TrueBrain>	the sea-level on those images is pushed 3 meters lower btw
08:50	<TrueBrain>	but okay
08:50	<Phazorx>	i know what height map is... but last time i checked water from black seas isnt that much higher there
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08:52	<Vikthor>	Is it only me, or is Rhein connected with Rhone in the middle of Switzerland on that map?
08:52	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: it is
08:52	<Phazorx>	this isnt my map actualy
08:53	<Phazorx>	i only shaved it and reset industries/cities
08:53	<dihedral>	Vikthor - if you dont mention it no one will notice :-_
08:53	<Phazorx>	as well as propered some rivers
08:53	<TrueBrain>	Phazorx: I think it is a fun map to play on :)
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08:54	<Vikthor>	dihedral: I doubt that, if I noticed, than why would not somebody else?
08:54	<Phazorx>	TrueBrain: yeah we are debating on how #openttdcoop will chime in with all the rest on there
08:54	[~]	dihedral was just kidding
08:54	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: any suggestions on how to make it look better ?
08:56	<Vikthor>	Well, I do not know, maybe make Rhein start in the Bodensee and the Rhone in Lac Leman?
09:00	<Phazorx>	hmm... is como another name for lugano ?
09:02	<TrueBrain>	we really need the border-patch for this kind of maps :)
09:02	<dihedral>	can someone trun this tar into a grf for us http://www.tt-forums.net/download.php?id=80148
09:02	<dihedral>	related post: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=634648#p634648
09:03	<dihedral>	it's a 32bbp sprite
09:03	<dihedral>	and we need a grf
09:03	<dihedral>	aim is to replace the transmitter
09:03	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11298 /branches/noai/ (10 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added EngineList + Valuators for all common functions. This should replace all FindXXXEngine, which will be removed soon
09:04	<Phazorx>	border patch?
09:04	<TrueBrain>	Phazorx: it disallowed people to build things outside their border
09:04	<Phazorx>	ahh is there patch liek that already?
09:05	<TrueBrain>	I made some initial patch for it
09:05	<TrueBrain>	head-to-head patch contains most code
09:05	<TrueBrain>	but a reduced version of it, is enough
09:05	<TrueBrain>	downside is that it only allowed rectangle borders currently
09:05	<TrueBrain>	non-rectangle needs _m bits :)
09:06	<Phazorx>	ahh... that isnt too good for this case
09:06	<Phazorx>	so i'm off to set "transmitters aka border poles" eveywhere then
09:06	<dihedral>	:-P
09:06	<TrueBrain>	enjoy
09:07	<TrueBrain>	what would be cool too, is the toll-port patch :)
09:07	<TrueBrain>	it allowed one company to make long tracks
09:07	<TrueBrain>	and via toll-ports, access for other companies on those tracks :p
09:08	<Phazorx>	TrueBrain: can you capture their trains tho?
09:08	<dihedral>	does it work stable?
09:08	<TrueBrain>	dihedral: no, it is based on r4533
09:08	<TrueBrain>	lol :p
09:09	<dihedral>	ouch
09:09	<dihedral>	where is it?
09:09	<TrueBrain>	in my patch vault
09:09	<dihedral>	i could try to change the patch to the current r
09:09	<TrueBrain>	haha
09:09	<TrueBrain>	no way :)
09:09	<dihedral>	"no way" it's too big
09:09	<dihedral>	or too complicated for dih?
09:09	<TrueBrain>	no, the code changes a bit too much :p
09:10	<+glx>	just 2 deleting patches revs :)
09:10	<+glx>	c->c++ and makefile rewrite
09:10	<TrueBrain>	but it might be nice to restart it
09:11	<TrueBrain>	it was just that on a normal game, it rarely is useful
09:11	<dihedral>	would i not just have to understand what the patch does, and 'rewrite' it for the current r?
09:11	<TrueBrain>	dihedral: it needs a bit more advanced logic :p
09:11	<TrueBrain>	anyway, I can't find the patch (only the description)
09:11	<dihedral>	uh
09:11	<dihedral>	k
09:11	<dihedral>	nvm then
09:11	<TrueBrain>	but okay, I have 1500 patches
09:11	<TrueBrain>	so no wonder :p
09:11	<dihedral>	LOL
09:12	<dihedral>	grep for something that might be in the comments :-D
09:12	<Phazorx>	and there is a city of "genf" where geneva is supposed to be here...
09:12	<Phazorx>	where is that damn swissman
09:12	<dihedral>	genf == geneva
09:12	<TrueBrain>	anyway, the patch really didn't work out how I wanted it too
09:12	<Vikthor>	Phazorx: Genf is german name fo Geneva
09:12	<TrueBrain>	nobody wants to pay you to use your tracks
09:12	<dihedral>	lol @ Phazorx
09:12	<TrueBrain>	they rather lay down their own
09:12	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: ahh...
09:13	<TrueBrain>	as they don't trust you..
09:13	<Phazorx>	i;d raver have it as geneva tho
09:13	<Phazorx>	is camo german for lugano then?
09:13	<dihedral>	Phazorx: why not use the original names
09:14	<Phazorx>	dihedral: hard to coordinate with unsuaual names
09:14	<dihedral>	all the asian counties aint on the map, so typing them should not be a prob :-D
09:14	<ammler>	[16:12] <Phazorx> where is that damn swissman \o/
09:14	<Phazorx>	i know where geneva is or milano... no idea where mailand or genf are
09:14	<Phazorx>	ammler:
09:14	<dihedral>	ammler: :-)
09:14	<ammler>	genf=geneva
09:14	<Phazorx>	that i know already
09:14	<Phazorx>	and camo?
09:15	<ammler>	we have 4 different languages in our country
09:15	<Vikthor>	Phazorx: If so should not it be Geneve (French spelling I believe?)
09:15	<Phazorx>	ammler: i know that but each canton should call their towns as they are
09:15	<TrueBrain>	Gen`eve is Dutch spelling :p
09:15	<ammler>	yes, Genève is best
09:15	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: Geneve is the one i put
09:15	<Phazorx>	Geneva is cyriilic
09:16	<ammler>	hmm, Umlauts should be possible, no?
09:16	<dihedral>	genf rhymes with senf
09:16	<ammler>	and don't forget Amden :P
09:16	<Phazorx>	ammler: there is some place named "camo" where lugano is suppsoed to be
09:16	<Phazorx>	is that normal?
09:16	<Phazorx>	and umlautsa are fine
09:16	<Phazorx>	ammler: where is it , lol ?
09:16	<Phazorx>	any other requests while i am on it ?
09:17	<dihedral>	i want Obernhof in the game
09:17	<dihedral>	it's on the lahn
09:17	<dihedral>	between Limburg and Koblenz
09:17	<ammler>	camo is a border village
09:17	<Vikthor>	Just out of interest how does the spelling of Czech cities look like?
09:17	<dihedral>	very small town
09:17	<Phazorx>	give me location as intersection of lines between any major cities
09:17	<ammler>	somewhere in italian side
09:17	<AntB>	Can you not just put town names in their native language?
09:18	<dihedral>	mossel ---\|rhein\|---- lahn
09:18	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: "Pilsen" "PRag" "Budweis"
09:18	<hylje>	AntB: some towns have several
09:18	<Vikthor>	thats actually German
09:18	<dihedral>	i was assuming you might have those towns on the map that i mentioned
09:18	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: author was german then
09:18	<Vikthor>	Probably
09:18	<AntB>	Primary language then.. (that'll be a laugh for Wales!)
09:19	<dihedral>	LOL
09:19	<Roujin>	does it have llanfair ... you know what in it? ^^
09:19	<Phazorx>	dihedral: bigger ones please
09:19	<dihedral>	lets add a TS server and hear how people try to pronounce those towns ?
09:19	<Phazorx>	liek karlsruhe :)
09:19	<hylje>	Liek
09:19	<Roujin>	llanfairpwylksjgaejrhlkaeasdngbjkwaensomething ;) you know what i mean
09:19	<AntB>	anyone wanna try making Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch village ;)
09:19	<Vikthor>	Phazorx: Correct ones are : "Plzeň" "Praha" "Budějovice" (more correctly "České Budějovice")
09:19	<Phazorx>	ammler: i'll put amden if you tell me where it is
09:20	<Vikthor>	But you can go without the extra diacritical marks
09:20	<ammler>	hmm, not needed, is too small... :)
09:20	<ammler>	and I miss our lage
09:20	<ammler>	lake
09:21	<ammler>	I will wait until the river patch
09:21	<Phazorx>	heh okay
09:21	<Phazorx>	dihedral: where is your town?
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09:22	<AntB>	anyone got any suggestions for drawin newGRf people?
09:22	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: i broke rhone/rhine at lugano-bern line :)
09:22	<ammler>	AntB looking at existing ones
09:22	<AntB>	which GRF has people in?
09:23	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: and ě/ň arent really possibkle :(
09:23	<dihedral>	Wolf01 is working on people...
09:23	<dihedral>	you could ask him
09:23	<ammler>	ie. if you like to make new road sprites for wwottdgd, take comboraods
09:23	<ammler>	or NARoads
09:23	<ammler>	you can read them best with GRF2Html
09:24	<AntB>	I was looking at NARoads for new lighting
09:24	<Vikthor>	Phazorx: Yeah I know thats why I said you go without diacritical marks
09:24	<ammler>	and of course the wiki of ttdpatch
09:25	<Vikthor>	And in fact they are possible you just need either unifont.grf or specify system font that is capable of showing them
09:25	<ammler>	can we force clients to use 32bpp?
09:26	<dihedral>	i would rather not
09:26	<dihedral>	and it does not make sense to add ONE 32bbp thing to the grf pack
09:26	[~]	AntB doesn't like 32bpp
09:27	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: i think slovakian would need corrections too
09:28	<SmatZ>	hmm yes, µ is not in unifont.rf
09:28	<Vikthor>	Phazorx: Ok, tell me I think I know the Slovakian names too
09:29	<Phazorx>	hmm.. bielsko-biala ?
09:29	<Phazorx>	zilina
09:29	<Vikthor>	Žilina
09:29	<Phazorx>	ostrau
09:29	<Vikthor>	but Biielsko-biala is polish I believe
09:30	<Phazorx>	cant find bratislava here
09:30	<Phazorx>	Vikthor: yeah... but same region :)
09:30	<Vikthor>	And Ostrau - Ostrava is Czech
09:30	<Phazorx>	Oppeln?
09:31	<Phazorx>	Kaschau - that's romanian?
09:31	<Phazorx>	and correct spelling for bratislava ?
09:31	<Phazorx>	it's breslau here
09:31	<Vikthor>	Bratislava
09:31	<dihedral>	perhaps that town stuff should move to #wwottdgd, to not flood this channel :-)
09:31	<Phazorx>	same as russian then
09:31	<Vikthor>	OK
09:32	[~]	dihedral slaps himslef for not doing so himself in the past
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09:33	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
09:34	<Sacro>	eek tis him
09:35	<@Bjarni>	I don't this this language. Please speak English
09:35	<hylje>	gibberish
09:36	<Sacro>	this this?
09:36	<+glx>	like this :)
09:39	\|-\|	SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:41	<@Bjarni>	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgiUSEpg8Xc <-- Lego will never be the same again o_O
09:41	<Sacro>	holy...
09:41	<Vikthor>	Now I wonder wheter Tr..Bra.n is around :)
09:42	<@Bjarni>	I don't
09:42	[~]	AntB would like to point the "YouTube link == Ban" part of the topic
09:43	<@Bjarni>	I know
09:43	<Sacro>	http://www.swearalot.com/
09:43	<@Bjarni>	I just don't care when it involves Lego™
09:44	<Sacro>	http://www.b3ta.com/links/Mirror_prank
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09:50	<Phazorx>	any poles around?
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09:51	[~]	Sacro has a wooden pole
09:51	[~]	dihedral does not want to know
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09:53	<Sacro>	!seen Meush
09:53	<+_42_>	Sacro, I don't remember seeing Meush.
09:55	<@Bjarni>	@seen Meush
09:55	<@DorpsGek>	Bjarni: Meush was last seen in #openttd 9 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <MeusH> hey Wolf01 :)
09:55	<Sacro>	hmmm
09:55	<Sacro>	Tesco vs Denmark
09:56	<Sacro>	:o
09:56	<Sacro>	its a war!
09:56	<@Bjarni>	what?
09:56	<Sacro>	http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lfSi0D7KESk
09:58	<hylje>	lego trains
09:59	<@Bjarni>	wow
09:59	<@Bjarni>	just wow
09:59	<@Bjarni>	finally somebody who understands Danes
10:00	<@Bjarni>	listen to what Stu says
10:00	<@Bjarni>	and don't try to prevent our actions :D
10:02	<@Bjarni>	http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-pVJqHqyIWo <-- Lego trains
10:02	<@Bjarni>	almost as many as I (would like to) have
10:03	<Phazorx>	is it like walmart in states?
10:03	<hylje>	so when you've conquered the world you'll spend your time at doing that
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10:07	<skidd13>	Hi
10:08	<dihedral>	hello
10:11	<skidd13>	dihedral: Buyed a Lart for the BDUs yet? :D
10:12	<dihedral>	:-D
10:12	<dihedral>	i'll make one myself
10:13	<TrueBrain>	Sacro / Bjarni: you both did read the topic, not?
10:15	[~]	dihedral was thinking of the topic, just did not want to say anything
10:16	<dihedral>	TrueBrain: go for it, just for the fun of it :-D
10:16	<TrueBrain>	okay, because you request it
10:16	<TrueBrain>	@ban Bjarni No Youtube links
10:16	<TrueBrain>	I should learn him to understand @ban
10:16	<TrueBrain>	@op
10:16	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
10:16	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+b !@0x50c79a03.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] by TrueBrain
10:16	\|-\|	Bjarni kicked [#openttd] TrueBrain [Bjarni]
10:16	<@TrueBrain>	now I feel much better :)
10:17	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [-b !@0x50c79a03.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] by TrueBrain
10:17	<dihedral>	lol
10:17	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	<Phazorx> it's breslau here <- breslau is something entirely different... that's in "Oberschlesien" (Poland)
10:17	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	the german name of Bratislava is "Preßburg"
10:18	\|-\|	frosch123 [~mtce@kolmogoroff.math.tu-clausthal.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:18	<Phazorx>	Eddi\|zuHause2: thanks for correcting...
10:18	<ln->	hmm, is there a german name for Firenze?
10:18	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	Florenz?
10:18	<ln->	(i.e. Florence in english)
10:19	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	yeah
10:19	<Vikthor>	Eddi\|zuHause2: We have settled on Bratislava, but thanks for corrction anyway
10:19	<Phazorx>	well
10:19	<ln->	ok, quite much as unobvious.
10:19	<Phazorx>	double mistake on authors acount
10:19	<Phazorx>	cuz it was named breslau
10:19	<Phazorx>	but was on danube
10:19	<Phazorx>	so it is bratislava actualy
10:19	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	Breslau should be further north
10:19	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	i'd help with that stuff, but i have to go now
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10:25	<Sacro>	TrueBrain: he started it
10:25	<@TrueBrain>	Sacro: reason I didn't ban you :)
10:27	<hylje>	TrueBrain: banned for being trolled successfully! :P
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10:28	<@Bjarni>	!logs
10:28	<SpComb>	Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
10:28	[~]	SpComb notes that OpenTTD isn't very playable over GPRS
10:28	<@TrueBrain>	SpComb: dah? :p
10:29	<SpComb>	I'd say it fared better than BF1942, though
10:29	<SpComb>	but I tried to zoom out, seized up for a minute, bunch of news messages came up, and then network synch error or whatnot
10:29	<@TrueBrain>	don't zoom out :p
10:30	<SpComb>	loading the map from the server takes about five minutes
10:30	<hylje>	haha
10:30	[~]	SpComb is bored in a car
10:30	<@Bjarni>	TrueBrain: what is it with you and YouTube anyway?
10:30	<@Bjarni>	you got stocks in Utube.com?
10:30	<hylje>	SpComb: you might want to play some starcraft
10:30	<@TrueBrain>	Bjarni: don't worry, it is not only me
10:30	<@TrueBrain>	and what is with you and bash/youtube links?
10:31	<@Bjarni>	are you sure?
10:31	<hylje>	he can't accept the funny
10:31	<@Bjarni>	maybe he lacked Lego as a kid
10:31	<SpComb>	hylje: I don't have it installed, how big is the download?
10:31	<hylje>	starcraft is two cds with the expansion
10:32	<SpComb>	I might be able to get about five megabytes dowloaded before the car trip's over
10:32	<@TrueBrain>	StarCraft was fun :)
10:32	<hylje>	it works great over gprs/edge. ive tried.
10:32	<SpComb>	two really small cds?
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10:32	<@Bjarni>	I think it's more like 1 Gb
10:32	<hylje>	big enough to not be downloadable that way
10:32	<@Bjarni>	however if you rip the singleplayer scenario videos, then they aren't that big
10:32	<@Bjarni>	I think
10:33	\|-\|	ufoun [~ja@81.19.35.178] has quit [Quit: Padla]
10:33	<SpComb>	latency's horrible when in a moving vehicle
10:34	<@Bjarni>	really?
10:34	<@Bjarni>	wanna play quake?
10:34	<SpComb>	hmm, not actually that bad right now... 700-1000ms idle, perhaps 1500ms under stress (me typing in ssh)
10:34	<SpComb>	but it works better than the WLAN at university does...
10:35	\|-\|	KouDy [user@85.207.64.178] has joined #openttd
10:35	<SpComb>	I swear that thing must have something which kills connections after they've been open for over a minute or two
10:35	<@Bjarni>	same thing with our wireless network
10:35	<@Bjarni>	except it appears to be computer specific
10:36	<@Bjarni>	some computers are rock stable while other computers are kicked right away
10:36	<@Bjarni>	even under the same conditions
10:36	<SpComb>	I think I'm one of a tiny minority who even bothers to attempt to use the WLAN there
10:36	<@Bjarni>	I don't use WLAN anywhere
10:36	<hylje>	depends on the device too
10:36	<SpComb>	the wlan's good in some of the department buildings, but sucks in the main building
10:37	<hylje>	some devices are good in keeping signal
10:37	<hylje>	some are less so
10:37	<SpComb>	== the computer science and electrical engineering people know stuff and use linksys hardware, the main building people don't and use übercheap 11mbit dlink crap
10:37	[~]	SpComb athers that IBM thinkpads are pretty good at WLAN reception
10:37	<Phazorx>	hmm.. another goe quiz
10:37	<SpComb>	the signal quality's not the issue, it's about 60%, ICMP ping to the gateway is pretty stable. TCP connections? Die after a while
10:38	<Phazorx>	geman name apaprently "Viacenza", soth alps close to .it/.ch border
10:38	<Phazorx>	what's proper name?
10:38	<SpComb>	google it
10:38	<Sacro>	gofuckinggoogleit.com
10:39	<Sacro>	hmm, thats not it
10:39	<Phazorx>	SpComb: i'm wikipediaing it
10:39	<Sacro>	http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
10:39	<Phazorx>	aint heling
10:39	<Sacro>	thats the one
10:39	[~]	Sacro reads about bubblesort on wikipedia
10:41	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11299 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Remove [API CHANGE]: FindXXXEngines are no longer available; use AIEngineList to select your engine
10:41	<dihedral>	bubbles?...
10:41	<dihedral>	...my bubbles...!
10:42	[~]	dihedral believes TrueBrain is over doing the commits to noai :-D
10:42	<Sacro>	static void BubbleSort<T>(IList<T> array) where T : IComparable<T>
10:42	<Sacro>	:\
10:43	<huma>	umm.. templates
10:43	<huma>	Sacro: have you seen apl code? i wouldn't :\ here :)
10:46	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: truelight * r11300 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_engine.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: only show those engines you can purchase (all others return false with IsValidEngine)
10:51	<dihedral>	nice
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11:06	<huma>	engines?
11:07	<Phazorx>	is it posisble to get snow on temp working on existing map
11:07	<Phazorx>	or convert it to arctic?
11:11	<@Belugas>	not easily
11:11	<@Belugas>	check what richk67 did once, on the forums
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11:24	<Phazorx>	Belugas: can you please specify more keywords for search ?
11:26	<Phazorx>	snow_in_temp_r4442.patch ?
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11:28	<Wolf01>	hello
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11:35	<@Belugas>	exact, Phazorx
11:36	<Phazorx>	Belugas: is there a chance that it still might work?
11:37	<@Belugas>	i doubt, truely
11:38	<@Belugas>	unless big big big work
11:38	<@Belugas>	damsn... i lost the url...
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11:40	<@Belugas>	mmh..
11:40	<@Belugas>	it might be faisable
11:40	<@Belugas>	although it would be manual work
11:40	<mikl>	The new text on raw material resources - 35% of an estimated 20,000k litres transported - does that mean that it can run out of oil when you reach 100%?
11:41	<hylje>	yes
11:41	<@Belugas>	i don't think it will suddenly stop, but in the long run, yes
11:41	<mikl>	meh :(
11:42	<mikl>	Is it possible to disable that?
11:42	<Wolf01>	maybe a random chance of "new seam of material found" to increase the industry life
11:43	<mikl>	ugh, too much realism for my tastes... I don't want resources to run out, destroying my perfect rail empire
11:43	<hylje>	well
11:43	<hylje>	what's more fun than hacking stuff?
11:44	<Wolf01>	when is perfect you have enough money to fund another raw industry
11:46	<@Belugas>	mikl, there is no wy to disable that. If you do not like the behaviour, just don't use the grf. it is not an option, it is a callback system
11:47	<ammler>	!s/fund/prospect/
11:48	<Phazorx>	mikl: actualy it overlaps
11:48	<Phazorx>	and that reminds me that i should submit a bugreport
11:48	<Phazorx>	mikl: it goes to 255 then back to 0
11:48	<Phazorx>	however it looks like if it is >100% there is higher chance of decline and closer
11:49	<Phazorx>	Belugas: manual work as in merging?
11:53	<@Belugas>	yes, since the patch was done prior of C++ arrival. And i suspect a lot more stuff has changed since then
11:53	<@Belugas>	so, manual work :)
11:54	<mikl>	how does prospecting work - does it just create a new industry somewhere random?
11:54	<@Belugas>	i can't remember, Phazorx, did you tried the resource depletion stuff in ttdp?
11:55	<@Belugas>	mikl, yes
11:55	<@Belugas>	or at least, it tries
11:55	<Phazorx>	Belugas: so basicaly it wont work, very sad...
11:55	<Phazorx>	and no i did not try - i cant play ttdp for that long :)
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11:58	<mikl>	hmpfh - Is all this GRF-based, or is it a part of core?
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11:58	[~]	mikl finds it hard to keep track...
12:00	<@Belugas>	Phazorx, did i say it won't work? no. I said big work
12:00	<@Belugas>	up your sleeves
12:00	<@Belugas>	it' easier than writing newindustries ;)
12:01	<Phazorx>	i'm upping my sleeves on some other parts of the deal there... and i hardly can be best candidate for recoding that one
12:01	<@Belugas>	mikl, it is what the grf author wrote
12:01	<Phazorx>	but yeat it is easier :)
12:01	<mikl>	Belugas: but which GRF is it...
12:01	<Phazorx>	mikl: PBI/UKRSNI
12:01	<@Belugas>	not to me to tell you. The info is available , jsut search
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12:02	<skidd13>	Hi again
12:02	<Phazorx>	skidd13...
12:03	<skidd13>	... <-?
12:03	<Phazorx>	feel like recoding snow in temperate? ;)
12:04	<huma>	oh, how about twisters? :)
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12:05	<huma>	smashing train stations and all
12:06	<mikl>	nah, forget twisters. We want volcanoes ;)
12:06	<mikl>	I want to see those puny pixels melt :)
12:06	<huma>	yea, that will do :)
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12:08	<huma>	snow would be cool though. traffic disturbance, icy roads.
12:10	<skidd13>	NewGRF dissasters :D
12:18	<LeviathNL>	Is there anyone here that uses TTRS and newbridges having the road bridges of ttrs and the railbridges of newbridges?
12:19	<Phazorx>	LeviathNL: order matters
12:20	<Ammler>	hmm, doesn't work
12:20	<Phazorx>	amler you sure?
12:20	<LeviathNL>	if i load newbridges before ttrs railbridges get all kind of glitches
12:20	<Ammler>	well, not nice enough
12:20	<LeviathNL>	wrong sprites used etc.
12:21	<Ammler>	join the #wwottdgd server
12:21	<Ammler>	there you see working combination
12:22	<LeviathNL>	what ottd version?
12:22	<LeviathNL>	i wait custom isn't?
12:22	<Ammler>	LeviathNL: join #wwottdgd
12:22	<Ammler>	there is a link in the topic
12:22	<LeviathNL>	i remembered
12:24	<Ammler>	best results I got, is newbridges with a road replacement like combined or NA
12:25	<Phazorx>	hmm... is there a way to control density of "many random industries" in editor?
12:25	<Phazorx>	i disabled "many of same kind per town" and "same type close" in patches but that had no effect
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12:30	<LeviathNL>	Ammler, I see there are still some glitches with rail-bridges
12:31	<Phazorx>	glitches?
12:32	<LeviathNL>	and the roadbridges I found (3) are not ttrs iirc
12:32	<LeviathNL>	Phazorx, yes. Is that a strange choise of words?
12:33	<LeviathNL>	*choice
12:34	<Phazorx>	LeviathNL: define glitches, i mean i figuew it is something you did not expected to see but whate xactly is it ?
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12:35	<LeviathNL>	http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotdt3.png
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12:38	<Ammler>	LeviathNL: still on the server, can you show me the glitch?
12:39	<LeviathNL>	Ammler: see ingame chat
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12:45	<Phazorx>	Belugas
12:45	<Phazorx>	is there a way to control density of "many random industries" in editor?
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12:47	<+glx>	why?
12:52	<Phazorx>	because it puts too many of them?
12:52	<Phazorx>	even if i set patch options that limit it
12:54	<Ammler>	http://img1.myimg.de/openttdcoop18thDec2036482b3.png
12:54	<Ammler>	Phazorx: ^^ did you see that ever?
12:54	<Ammler>	(or someone else)
12:55	<Phazorx>	doamin fails to resolv
12:55	<Phazorx>	a nm worked 3rd time
12:56	<Phazorx>	never saw the cross one
12:58	<LeviathNL>	Ammler, is that a static ground grf?
12:58	<Ammler>	32bpp
12:59	<Ammler>	also the gui symbols
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13:00	<@Belugas>	Phazorx, no, there is no control over it. Many is ... many
13:01	<Phazorx>	Belugas: but it is too many
13:01	<@Belugas>	don't remember the code behind it, tough
13:01	<Phazorx>	and it doesnt obey patch options from the looks of it
13:01	<Phazorx>	as it put 5 refineries enxt to same city
13:01	<Phazorx>	although i set to permit only one per and none clsoe of same type
13:02	<@Belugas>	it's always too many for someone and too little for someone else...
13:02	<Ammler>	grfs don't care about patch settings
13:02	<Phazorx>	well you wanan see a screenshot of what i call too many?
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13:04	<Ammler>	hmm, I miss a feature to export/import cfg settings...
13:06	<Phazorx>	Ammler: placing industries isnt really grf functionality as i ithnk
13:07	<Ammler>	I spoke about NewIndustries GRFs
13:07	<Phazorx>	still placement has nothing to do wth it
13:07	<Phazorx>	http://www.myimg.us/10.19.07/3366.png
13:08	<Phazorx>	there is one city and 11 food plants on the map
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13:29	<@Belugas>	you know what many random means? it just mean that. nothing more
13:29	<@Belugas>	many
13:29	<@Belugas>	random
13:29	<@Belugas>	it's not only the type
13:29	<@Belugas>	it is the placement too
13:29	<@Belugas>	and the number
13:29	<@Belugas>	so...
13:29	<@Belugas>	you're in edort?
13:29	<@Belugas>	cool
13:30	<@Belugas>	perform many,
13:30	<@Belugas>	and chop whta you don't like
13:30	<@Belugas>	end of discussion
13:32	<Ammler>	nice compromiss :)
13:33	<LeviathNL>	Maybe someone in this channel can help me : I have a little nfo question, in pikka's viaduct this line: 52 * 6 07 83 01 \7< FF 0C as I understand it it checks if the value of the climate (01, 02, 03 or 04) is less then FF. isn't this always the case?
13:33	<Phazorx>	Belugas: it is much easier to add (click same button more) than to remove extras on 11x11 map
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13:41	<@Belugas>	LeviathNL, you may be right. but i'm not too familiar with actions 07
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13:42	<@Belugas>	Phazorx, so just add them by hand and don't rely on the many random button. Sorry if it sound stupid and harsh, but i have no intention to change that for the time being
13:43	<@Belugas>	many other more usefull horses to beat
13:43	<Phazorx>	it would be nice to get a pointer where is the loop thata ctualy does the creatin from editor is
13:43	<Ammler>	LeviathNL: thats a simple GOTO command
13:43	<Phazorx>	cuz aparently it is not same as for random game generation
13:44	<LeviathNL>	Ammler, _minime_ already explained :) thanks anyway
13:45	<Ammler>	LeviathNL: I would use GRF2HTML to look into grfs
13:46	<LeviathNL>	I'll try it
13:47	<Maarten>	Maarten's servers are back up :) Just did a quick upgrade from Ubuntu 7.04 to 7.10 :P
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13:49	<@Belugas>	Phazorx : industry_gui.cpp:278
13:49	<@Belugas>	have fun
13:52	<Phazorx>	thanks
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14:11	<Phazorx>	Belugas: new industry or industry creation are different procedures?
14:12	<Phazorx>	cuz industry_cmd.cpp:1656 NB_NUMOFINDUSTRY = 11, << that looks liek a strange hardcode
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14:22	<@Belugas>	it has nothung to do with the real industry numbers
14:23	<@Belugas>	it is the number of cells that hold the industry multiplier
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14:24	<welterde>	hi
14:24	<@Belugas>	hello welterde
14:24	<@TrueBrain>	how can we help you today? :)
14:25	<@Belugas>	Phazorx, each industry has an appearing chance. It is multiplied by the digit found at the index it is refering to
14:25	<@Belugas>	depends of the level of difficulty as well as the climat
14:25	<@Belugas>	e
14:25	<welterde>	TrueBrain: make openttd connect to my model railway ;)
14:25	<@TrueBrain>	give us an interface
14:26	<Phazorx>	Belugas: i got that idea... but what happens for industries that are not defined there?
14:26	<@Belugas>	i beg you pardon?
14:29	<Phazorx>	i translated number of cells that hold insustry chances of appearing into industry types
14:29	<@Belugas>	wrong
14:29	<Phazorx>	type being ind_blackhole for example
14:29	<@Belugas>	you're mixing raisins and bananas :D
14:30	<Phazorx>	quite possible
14:30	<Phazorx>	by type has to have seome difintion to it
14:30	<@Belugas>	look carefully at PlaceInitialIndustry
14:31	<@Belugas>	line 1675
14:31	<@Belugas>	follow work of varaible amoount
14:31	<@Belugas>	and never assume anything, make sure you do understand
14:32	<@Belugas>	do not jump on conclusion
14:32	<Phazorx>	also, was a bit lost there for w while, then function is called second param is defined as chance
14:32	<Phazorx>	but when it gets ehre it is amount
14:32	<@Belugas>	INDUSTRYLIFE_BLACK_HOLE is related to the 4 different groups of industries, by the way...
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14:33	<Phazorx>	Belugas: i assumes these as most generic types of categorization and that can be hardcoded
14:33	<Phazorx>	what are industry cells are which you mentioned i have no idea about atm
14:34	<@Belugas>	look at _numof_industry_table
14:34	<@Belugas>	on 1662
14:34	<Phazorx>	looking
14:34	<Phazorx>	rowsa are clear - that's dificulaty scaling
14:34	<Phazorx>	but what are columns?
14:35	<@Belugas>	multipliers
14:35	<Phazorx>	why there are 11 of them?
14:35	<@Belugas>	now, look at build_industry.h:1193
14:35	<Phazorx>	oh boy, i shifted num wrong way...
14:36	<@Belugas>	lne says : 1680, 0xB3333333, 2, 3, 0, 0, 8, 8, 0, 0, 215,
14:36	<Phazorx>	err... dont see that in root?
14:36	<@Belugas>	look in table/...
14:36	<Phazorx>	looking
14:36	<@Belugas>	the digits that are important are the "2,3, 0, 0, 8, 8, 0, 0"
14:37	<@Belugas>	take the first one
14:37	<@Belugas>	2
14:37	<Phazorx>	as i scrol ldown i see them change in diff industries
14:37	<@Belugas>	it is the one refering to the 3th entry of _numof_industry_table
14:39	<Phazorx>	kinda makes sesne now
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14:40	<Phazorx>	so it is a parallel categorization of industries determining their chances of appearance under different circumstances per climate?
14:41	<Phazorx>	and i assume new ones brought by GRFs are defined in same way
14:41	<@Belugas>	so, the NB_NUMOFINDUSTRY simply states the maximum number of entries of _numof_industry_table, regarding the ingame aprrearance/random a[reauc
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14:41	<@Belugas>	industryspec:
14:41	<@Belugas>	byte appear_ingame[NUM_LANDSCAPE]; ///< Probability of appearance in game
14:41	<@Belugas>	byte appear_creation[NUM_LANDSCAPE]; ///< Probability of appearance during map creation
14:41	<@Belugas>	any more question?
14:42	<Phazorx>	no that one is clear more or less
14:42	<@Belugas>	2 = temperate, 3 = arctic, 0 = tropic, 0 = toyland
14:42	<@Belugas>	same for 8,8,0,0
14:43	<Phazorx>	and 1-11 is just scaling
14:43	<@Belugas>	yes
14:44	<Phazorx>	i guess you wanted additional flexibility determining proportions
14:44	<@Belugas>	and is not related to industry numbers at all
14:44	<@Belugas>	not me, CS :)
14:44	<Phazorx>	i was reading these numbers in build_industry.h as direct factors rather than references before
14:44	<@Belugas>	took me a time to understand too ;)
14:45	<Phazorx>	Belugas: but these proportions need to be redefined for NI though
14:45	<Phazorx>	(thanks for exmplanation btw)
14:45	<@Belugas>	with newindu, if ever the number is above 11, it will used as such, wihouth iuntertrepation
14:45	<@Belugas>	interpretation
14:45	<Phazorx>	ahh... ncie failback
14:45	<@Belugas>	no choice
14:45	<Phazorx>	cap it :)
14:46	<Phazorx>	and i woudl really liek a way to separetly generate primaris from rest of industries
14:46	<@Belugas>	expand?
14:46	<Phazorx>	cuz with PBI and ECS some industries are not available in desired amount, throuws the game out of balance
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14:47	<Phazorx>	Belugas: i mean that of multiple industries take cargo of particular type produced by some industry type as required
14:47	<Phazorx>	there whould be a way to put more industries of that type
14:47	<Phazorx>	with ECS epsecialy
14:48	<Phazorx>	chains are relatively complicated and industries require multiple cargo types
14:48	<Phazorx>	meaning that ratio between primary and secondary ones needs to reflect that
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14:51	<@Belugas>	what we have seen is not the only factor allowing or prohibiting an industry to appear
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14:54	[~]	Sacro wants bananaphone for his ringtone
14:55	<@Belugas>	Phazorx, it is not up to us to deal with the number of industries
14:55	<@Belugas>	it is p to the author.
14:56	<@Belugas>	the only responsibility we have,
14:56	<@Belugas>	is to make it so the system obeys what he wrote
14:56	<@Belugas>	not how we think it shold work
14:56	<Phazorx>	i hope proportions can be defined in grfs though
14:57	<Phazorx>	separately from NI grfs themselves...cuz it would make sense either to mod originals or code mods
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15:06	<+glx>	Phazorx: grfs can check how many industries of a given type are already built
15:06	<+glx>	then can even allow only 1 industry of a given type on the entire map
15:06	<Phazorx>	that's nice
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15:06	<Phazorx>	but issue is quite the reverse
15:06	<+glx>	but it's up to the grf author
15:06	<Phazorx>	i'm taking about map generator
15:07	<Phazorx>	which i cant even see reading the patch options not only the grfs
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15:10	<Gonozal_VIII>	i have no idea what that was supposed to mean
15:11	<@Belugas>	i do
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15:32	<@TrueBrain>	Lalalaaa
15:32	<SpComb>	rahrahrahrah
15:32	<@TrueBrain>	I hate it that when you are waiting for a new episode to be released, that people repost an older one
15:32	<hylje>	#openttd choir
15:33	<hylje>	do want?
15:33	<@TrueBrain>	should be banned
15:33	<SpComb>	they're playing singstar in this room that I'm in
15:33	<SpComb>	and the WLAN's lagging here as well
15:35	<@TrueBrain>	poor SpComb
15:40	\|-\|	LeviathNL [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:41	<@Bjarni>	SpComb: who are those people who torture you?
15:43	[~]	Sacro codes in C#
15:43	<Sacro>	have to implement bubblesort
15:44	<@Bjarni>	try randomsort
15:45	<@Bjarni>	it fits better with the theory of C#
15:45	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	i like lossy sort the most
15:45	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: why are you learning programming at this level?
15:45	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	for every input, you output "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10"
15:46	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	that _is_ a sorted list after all ;)
15:46	<Sacro>	Bjarni: at what level?
15:46	<@Bjarni>	like bubblesort
15:46	<Sacro>	is that a high or low level?
15:46	<@Bjarni>	and the question you posted the other day
15:46	<@Bjarni>	what do you think? :)
15:46	<Sacro>	what question?
15:46	[~]	Sacro is confused
15:46	[~]	Bjarni noticed
15:47	<@Bjarni>	it was an old exam question or something
15:47	\|-\|	TinoM [~Tino@i5387C8C2.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
15:47	<@TrueBrain>	Sacro: don't feel bad, when Bjarni starts talking, everyone is confused
15:47	<@Bjarni>	:P
15:47	<Sacro>	TrueBrain: ah, alright
15:47	<Sacro>	Bjarni: oh that...
15:47	<Sacro>	hmm, we have that exam next week
15:47	<@Bjarni>	the exam where you know the questions?
15:47	<Sacro>	and C# is a lot more picky than C/PHP
15:47	<Sacro>	no, that was a practice
15:48	<Sacro>	PHP/C will let you do stupid things
15:48	<@Bjarni>	so will C#
15:48	<@Bjarni>	you might have to be more clever to do stupid stuff though
15:48	<Sacro>	no, it just throws exceptions
15:48	<@Bjarni>	hence you have to be more clever to get around that
15:48	<Sacro>	Unhandled Exception: System.FormatException: Input string was not in the correct format
15:50	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: in plain C what will a contain after this line: "unsigned int a = 2 < 4;"?
15:50	\|-\|	Peakki [antti@cs181247045.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä]
15:50	<Sacro>	32?
15:51	<@TrueBrain>	why doesn't imdb not have some filter system, where you can select air-year, give the userscore it should have, ...
15:51	<@Bjarni>	32????
15:51	<@TrueBrain>	now finding a good movie is hard
15:51	<Sacro>	or maybe 16
15:51	<@Bjarni>	how did you get the number 32???
15:51	<@Bjarni>	or 16 for that matter
15:51	<Sacro>	i did << instead of <
15:51	<Sacro>	whoops
15:51	<@Bjarni>	:P
15:51	<Sacro>	won't it contain 0?
15:52	<@Bjarni>	no
15:52	<Sacro>	:\
15:52	<hylje>	divide by zero
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15:53	<@Bjarni>	a little help: look at < before = meaning you should deal with "2 < 4" before =
15:54	<Sacro>	yes
15:54	<Sacro>	2 < 4 = true
15:54	<@Bjarni>	is true == 0?
15:54	<Gonozal_VIII>	?
15:54	<Sacro>	true = 0
15:54	<Sacro>	yes
15:54	<@Bjarni>	NO
15:54	<hylje>	thats silly
15:54	<@Bjarni>	wtf are you talking about???
15:54	<hylje>	True is True, and thats it
15:55	<@Bjarni>	<Sacro> true = 0 <-- well, I would reply with "0" :P
15:55	\|-\|	dihedral [~dihedral@p54AFE0B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: then what number is false?
15:56	<Sacro>	1
15:56	<@Bjarni>	wrong
15:56	<Sacro>	-1
15:56	<hylje>	the real question is, what number is FILE_NOT_FOUND
15:56	<@Bjarni>	...
15:56	<Sacro>	hylje: 2
15:57	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: in plain C (remember I started the question by telling which language I'm talking about) wrong is 0... remember that!!!
15:57	<@Bjarni>	err
15:57	<@Bjarni>	s/wrong/false
15:57	<@Bjarni>	so when false is 0, then true can't be 0
15:58	<Sacro>	yes it can
15:58	<Sacro>	#define true false
15:58	<Sacro>	and #define false true
15:58	<@Bjarni>	dammit
15:58	<Sacro>	swaps them nicely
15:58	<@Bjarni>	the question is: int a = 2 < 4;
15:59	<@Bjarni>	what will a contain after that?
15:59	<@Bjarni>	it's not affected by some weird defines
15:59	<Sacro>	0
15:59	<Sacro>	or maybe 1
15:59	<Sacro>	or ><
15:59	<@Bjarni>	wait, it was unsigned int, not int
16:00	<@Bjarni>	<Sacro> or maybe 1 <-- finally you said something right
16:00	<@Bjarni>	maybe even more right than you think
16:00	<Sacro>	i don't think muhc
16:01	<@Bjarni>	I guess I better tell you. It's a trick question. It's 1 on x86 while it's 0xFFFFFFFF on PPC
16:01	<@Bjarni>	but you failed to reached the point where the tricky question began because you didn't even reach 1
16:01	<Ammler>	@calc 2 < 4
16:01	<@DorpsGek>	Ammler: 1
16:02	<@Bjarni>	plain C will see that as a true/false reply and it depends on the CPU what number true is
16:02	<@Bjarni>	looks like DorpsGek runs on x86 (or is coded cleverly)
16:03	<@Bjarni>	Sacro: what are you studying?
16:03	<Sacro>	Bjarni: Computer Science
16:03	<@Bjarni>	how does it feel to be told about programming from a non CS student?
16:04	<Gonozal_VIII>	i only know java and there the compiler would complain about squeezing a boolean into an integer
16:04	<@Bjarni>	I said that it's plain C
16:04	<hylje>	cs isnt just programming
16:05	<@Bjarni>	plain C lacks a boolean var. You will have to use an int (or byte or whatever)
16:05	<Gonozal_VIII>	ah
16:05	<Gonozal_VIII>	thats lots of wasted bits
16:05	<@Bjarni>	but if you study CS, then you should know that C and C++ (and other languages as well) reads 0 as false and != 0 as true
16:05	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: glx * r11301 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: water check when building industries didn't work
16:06	<@Bjarni>	<Gonozal_VIII> thats lots of wasted bits <-- java allocates 32 bit each time you use a bool
16:06	<hylje>	Gonozal_VIII: one can use bitmasks to have several bools in one
16:06	<@Bjarni>	that's even worse
16:06	<Gonozal_VIII>	32? not 8?
16:06	<@Bjarni>	yeah you can do as hylje said if you want to save memory
16:07	<hylje>	ive never even used them
16:07	<@Bjarni>	I think I read that it will take 32 bit so that it will be aligned correctly in the memory for fast read/write
16:07	<@Bjarni>	you can also use a char or unsigned char (both 8 bit) in C if you want to store a bool
16:07	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	java is totally assuming you run on 32bit machines
16:08	<@Bjarni>	that's the usual way if you have limited hardware
16:09	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	that is especially a problem if you use 64 bit variables, they have to be mapped to two 32bit variables, you cannot simply use a native 64bit variable on 64bit machines
16:10	<@Bjarni>	I didn't think of that, but yeah, the java virtual machine is 32 bit
16:10	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	that's not a big problem now, but imagine 2 or 5 years in the future, when everyone has 64bit computers
16:11	<@TrueBrain>	Eddi\|zuHause2: then the VM will be 100% 64bit :p
16:11	<Gonozal_VIII>	64 bit booleans....
16:11	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	TrueBrain: i don't see that happening
16:11	<@TrueBrain>	but remember that any compiler has simular 'problems'. If you send a bool via a parameter in C, it is also send as 32bit
16:11	<@Bjarni>	for all we know java isn't a big programming platform in 5 years. Something way better might turn up
16:12	<hylje>	cough python
16:12	<@TrueBrain>	in fact, even if you send a 8 or 16 byte param, it is send as 32bit
16:12	<@TrueBrain>	or 64bit, on a 64bit CPU (with compiler)
16:12	<@TrueBrain>	for example, on a MIPS it is much faster to work with 32bit variables, than with any other
16:12	<@TrueBrain>	reading a 8bit var takes 2 clockcycles more
16:13	<@Bjarni>	but that's because it stores one variable in one register and all the registers has the same size
16:13	<@Bjarni>	so it's kind of a hardware limitation
16:13	<@Bjarni>	not a serious one though
16:13	<@TrueBrain>	yes, it all is :)
16:13	<@TrueBrain>	for example, an ALU most of the time is optimized for N bits
16:13	<@TrueBrain>	and so working in that size, is always faster
16:13	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	yeah, to read 8 bit, you read 32 bit, then read a bitmask, and then AND the bitmask
16:14	<@TrueBrain>	Eddi\|zuHause2: the bitmask can be compiled by the controller
16:14	<@TrueBrain>	but basicly, yes
16:14	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: glx * r11302 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix (r9520): typo
16:16	<@TrueBrain>	so short: losing bits happen all over the place ;)
16:16	<Gonozal_VIII>	11302? nightly is 11293, 9 changes in 3 hours?
16:16	<+glx>	Gonozal_VIII: NoAI
16:17	<@TrueBrain>	got a problem with it? :p
16:17	<@Bjarni>	well, I wouldn't consider the one var one register an issue. The issue could be if you need to store say 100k bits in memory, then you would like to make every bit count and not store each of them in a 32 bit var
16:17	<Gonozal_VIII>	aah
16:17	<Sacro>	TrueBrain: you don't wanna lose your bits
16:17	<@Bjarni>	it's not like it matters if an app can save 4k by compressing vars today
16:17	<@TrueBrain>	Sacro: good point :p
16:17	<Sacro>	unless you like unix...
16:18	<@Bjarni>	actually I think even unix sacrifices RAM for speed today (though not in any extreme way)
16:19	<@Bjarni>	using every single bit will make the app slower
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16:20	<hylje>	gcc can optimize that stuff too
16:20	<@TrueBrain>	Bjarni: everything makes a compromise between memory and speed
16:20	<@Bjarni>	yeah
16:20	<@TrueBrain>	from the start of a CPU, back in 1965, even now
16:20	<@TrueBrain>	example: ia64 puts, what, 12 opcodes in 1 command
16:20	<@TrueBrain>	more memory, faster (parallel) processing
16:20	<@TrueBrain>	(as they have to be unrelated)
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16:22	<@Bjarni>	yeah CPUs tend to try to do parallel stuff today
16:23	<@Bjarni>	it's kind of cool, but it works best if you code in a way to allow it to work in parallel
16:23	<@TrueBrain>	parallel coding comes in so many ways these days
16:23	<@Bjarni>	yeah
16:24	<@Bjarni>	singlethreaded parallel coding is interesting... though no teacher ever talked about it
16:24	<@Bjarni>	at least not while I'm around
16:24	<@TrueBrain>	Stackless Python
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16:25	<@TrueBrain>	(each class in a thread, no direct data-sharing (all via channels))
16:25	<hylje>	stackless is awesome
16:25	<@TrueBrain>	best way of parallel coding in my opinion
16:25	<@TrueBrain>	most clean
16:25	<@TrueBrain>	just an other way of thinking
16:25	<@TrueBrain>	instead of doing: OtherClass.gimmeyourdata
16:25	<@TrueBrain>	you have to give it through a channel, meaning making a function instead of direct access
16:26	<@TrueBrain>	(so: SetValue and GetValue, instead of value, which is a good thing anyway)
16:26	<@TrueBrain>	hylje: it is. The C implementation (the only one I could find that is) sucks sadly enough :p
16:26	<@Bjarni>	I remember reading an example on how to make good use of both ALUs in a G5 and I thought "this example isn't really good. All G5s has a velocity engine and a velocity engine can do this task faster than the CPU"
16:26	<@Bjarni>	it did tell the principle of how it works though
16:26	<@Bjarni>	so it worked
16:27	<@Bjarni>	but if I had written it, then I would have at least mentioned the velocity engine as an option to consider if you had to deal with this task and speed could be an issue
16:28	<@TrueBrain>	"de beste stuurlui staan aan wal"
16:29	<Gonozal_VIII>	stuurlui?
16:29	<@Bjarni>	I have problems understanding that sentence, but I guess it's because I don't know the word "stuurlui" :/
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16:30	<@TrueBrain>	it means that those who are not doing it, are always telling it can be done better
16:30	<@Bjarni>	hehe
16:30	<@Bjarni>	true
16:30	<SpComb>	Bjarni: the students at the school that I'm alumni at
16:30	<@TrueBrain>	now go find in your dict which sentence you use
16:31	<@Bjarni>	I don't have a Dutch-Danish dictionary... I found an English<->Dutch one online a while ago, but it was no good
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16:32	<@Bjarni>	SpComb: ok.... took you a while to reply... did you sing well?
16:32	<hylje>	are you implying Bjarni has a set (dict) of canned responses?
16:32	<SpComb>	Bjarni: no, I'm spending more time with my camera than with my laptop
16:32	<@Bjarni>	you mean that there are girls as well?
16:33	<SpComb>	what's that supposed to mean? :P
16:33	<SpComb>	there are, in fact, yes
16:33	[~]	SpComb has spent the last three hours wandering around the building with his camera
16:33	<SpComb>	about three hundred photos so far
16:33	<@Bjarni>	<SpComb> [...] I'm spending more time with my camera
16:33	<SpComb>	exactly 300, in fact
16:33	<Gonozal_VIII>	aaaand.. why?
16:33	<@Bjarni>	girls
16:33	<LeviathNL>	Is it in TTDP possible to add parts to articulated vehicles?
16:33	<Gonozal_VIII>	around the building?
16:34	\|-\|	Jezral changed nick to TinoDidriksen
16:34	<SpComb>	spending time with my camera does not nesecarily an indication of there being girls around
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16:34	[~]	SpComb attempted to get some good shots of a chess game
16:34	<@Bjarni>	if you take 300 pictures instead of being on IRC, then I presume that something interesting goes on
16:35	<@TrueBrain>	bah, I am bored
16:35	<@Bjarni>	looks like you have something in common with SpComb
16:36	<Gonozal_VIII>	i didn't know that taking pictures of chess games is such a widespread hobby
16:36	<@TrueBrain>	maybe I should play OpenTTD, for a chance...
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16:37	<Gonozal_VIII>	almost forgot that i still have a game running
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16:38	<@TrueBrain>	or freeciv
16:38	<@TrueBrain>	more challenging :)
16:40	<Sacro>	hylje: do we need to run a turing test on Bjarni ?
16:40	<hylje>	go ahead
16:41	<hylje>	TrueBrain: because you dont know the mechanics inside out?
16:42	<Gonozal_VIII>	today i was playing openttd in the train on my way home and didn't realise that some kids, maybe 4 or 5 years old, where watching from behind until they asked me to build a bus stop in that nice looking town near the lake...
16:43	<@TrueBrain>	hylje: partly, and also because it has fights :)
16:43	<hylje>	ooh
16:43	<hylje>	combat
16:43	<@TrueBrain>	turing test on Bjarni is easy
16:43	<@TrueBrain>	@kick Bjarni turing test
16:43	\|-\|	Bjarni kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [turing test]
16:43	\|-\|	Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50c79a03.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:43	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:44	<@TrueBrain>	see, he is a bot
16:45	<Prof_Frink>	What, because he has autorejoin?
16:45	<@TrueBrain>	yes :p
16:45	<hylje>	thats settled then
16:45	<@TrueBrain>	I Still wonder what is exactly needed to make a computer human-like
16:46	<hylje>	stupidity
16:46	<Prof_Frink>	hylje: We have that
16:46	<Prof_Frink>	See: TT's AI
16:47	<Gonozal_VIII>	AS then
16:47	<@TrueBrain>	it does act like a human in a strange way, indeed
16:47	<Prof_Frink>	Nah
16:47	<Prof_Frink>	Artificial Insanity
16:47	<Gonozal_VIII>	:-)
16:48	<@TrueBrain>	and EVE: Online is boring!
16:48	<@TrueBrain>	I am still looking for a game with a nice market system
16:48	<@TrueBrain>	wher eit is fun to work in the market
16:48	<@TrueBrain>	in EVE it is a bit too boring for my taste :p
16:48	<@TrueBrain>	(Waiting 20 minutes to go from sectorA to sector B is a bit ... )
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16:51	<@TrueBrain>	Zr40: switched to IPv6? :p
16:51	<Zr40>	switched again :)
16:51	<@TrueBrain>	I gave up on IPv6 several years ago :p
16:52	<@TrueBrain>	all my ISPs I switched too didn't support it
16:52	<@TrueBrain>	not 1 bit
16:52	<Zr40>	well, my ISP does kind of support it (you could call it beta), but I'm not using that
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16:56	<Zr40>	I wasn't aware 'high definition' means 'audible noise'
16:56	<hylje>	ha
16:57	<SpComb>	http://photos.marttila.de/paivola/2007-10-20/chess.jpg.html
16:58	<SpComb>	@ Bjarni
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17:03	<@TrueBrain>	lol, I love sites that 'closed' their beta registration
17:03	<@TrueBrain>	you click on register, you are redirected via a meta tag
17:03	<@TrueBrain>	so you press ESC, fill in the form, and it works
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17:15	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+v Bjarni] by ChanServ
17:15	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
17:15	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
17:15	\|-\|	mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
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17:30	<dihedral>	hello
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17:33	<Maarten>	anyone know in which chan the ircops reside on this network? /list doesn't seem to work
17:33	<Zr40>	#oftc maybe?
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17:40	<LeviathNL>	strange, i loaded ttrs3 before PBI, the engineers yard uses the ttrs road but the food processing plant doesn't ....
17:41	<@Rubidium>	sounds like a bug in the newgrf to me
17:41	<@Rubidium>	but then again, I'm not sure... you've got to check whether it exhibits the same behaviour in TTDP
17:43	<LeviathNL>	I'll check
17:45	<Gonozal_VIII>	is that a different food processing plant than the ecs one? because there are no road tiles
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17:47	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: rubidium * r11303 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs):
17:47	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: -Fix: EnsureNoVehicle and EnsureNoVehicleOnGround were both used to check
17:47	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: whether there was no vehicle on the ground, except that the former didn't take
17:47	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: care of aircraft shadows. So now we only use EnsureNoVehicleOnGround.
17:48	<LeviathNL>	Maybe it is because the Food PP uses not only road but also a lorry bay sprite
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17:50	<Gonozal_VIII>	lorry bay is also changed with ttrs
17:53	<LeviathNL>	I know but maybe using it (by another grf) is not possible with the current grf specs
17:54	<@Rubidium>	it should be possible, at least in this situation that is
17:55	<@Rubidium>	as the first GRF "just" replaces the road sprite
17:55	<@Rubidium>	you'll probably see that the road for the engineerings yard is TTRS when you first load PBI and then TTRS.
17:57	<LeviathNL>	I just decoded PBI and the road sprites used in the food processing plant is in the psx. (just a copy of the original it seems)
17:59	<Ammller>	would be cool, if you could drive in with lorry to that food plant
18:00	<Eddi\|zuHause2>	you mean an "anonymous" station like on oil rigs?
18:01	<Gonozal_VIII>	i thought about that too, but that could never handle enough traffic
18:01	<LeviathNL>	is the oil rig station hard coded or can it be done with a grf?
18:01	<Gonozal_VIII>	fishing boats have that too so grf...
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18:02	<Ammller>	Gonozal_VIII: hmm, indeed, but eyecandy would be nice
18:05	<LeviathNL>	Would be nice that if you build a station against the industry station tile it would get the name of the station so it can be used in the orders like any other station
18:05	<Gonozal_VIII>	:D
18:07	<dihedral>	and how would that work when 2 companies build a station to the same ind LeviathNL ?
18:07	<Gonozal_VIII>	but there would be problems with other players or the ai then when only one player has direct access to the industry
18:07	[~]	dihedral beat Gonozal_VIII to it
18:09	<Gonozal_VIII>	the industry would have to expand the station by itself if it's overcrowded
18:11	<LeviathNL>	all company's would be able to visit the industries stationtile
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18:41	<dihedral>	good night... bed is calling me
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18:42	<dihedral>	quit #wwottdgd join hand have fun
18:42	<dihedral>	with a / next time :-D
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19:01	<Wolf01>	'night
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19:09	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: belugas * r11304 /trunk/src/ (vehicle_gui.cpp window.cpp): -Feature: Control-Clicking the Center Main View button on the vehicle window allows the main viewport to follow the chosen vehicle.(stevenh)
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19:15	<Sacro>	Belugas: nice one
19:15	<Sacro>	and since when was stevenh a opendev?
19:16	<Gonozal_VIII>	patch
19:16	<Sacro>	Gonozal_VIII: eh?
19:16	<Gonozal_VIII>	that was a patch afaik
19:16	<Sacro>	yes
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19:17	<Sacro>	but since when has he developed for Open? Thought he was Patch
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19:17	<@Belugas>	he is an opendev?
19:17	<Sacro>	Belugas: did he not write that patch?
19:17	<@Belugas>	so... why did i commited it?
19:17	<@Belugas>	mmh...
19:17	<@Belugas>	he did
19:18	<@Belugas>	is he an opendev?
19:18	<Sacro>	well
19:18	<Sacro>	he just got a patch commited
19:18	<Sacro>	so i'd say yes
19:18	<@Belugas>	nonsens
19:18	<@Belugas>	but... who am i to say so ?
19:19	<Sacro>	well...
19:19	<Sacro>	you are an uber-dev
19:20	<CIA-5>	OpenTTD: glx * r11305 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: randomise layout when building an industry ingame
19:21	<@Belugas>	youhou!
19:21	<@Belugas>	and glx is an industrial dev :D
19:22	<@Belugas>	now... which of UKRS trains should i test for that reverse stuff???
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19:22	<Gonozal_VIII>	a long one with tender?
19:22	<Sacro`>	bouncy
19:24	<@Belugas>	come on guys... a bit more helpfull please...
19:24	<Sacro`>	?
19:24	<Gonozal_VIII>	will that be an aditional difficulty option like suggested in the thread?
19:24	<@Belugas>	hu???
19:25	<Gonozal_VIII>	erm... maybe different reverse stuff, sorry^^
19:25	<@Belugas>	http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=34509
19:25	<@Belugas>	that
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19:26	<Sacro`>	Belugas: what can i do to help?
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19:28	<@Belugas>	simple... tell me which grf should i use, which train would be needed, and wehn should that behaviour should occur
19:29	<@Belugas>	really nothing :D
19:29	<Sacro>	fraid i'm no ttdpatch user
19:29	<Sacro>	i have no idea :(
19:29	<@Belugas>	gaaa....
19:29	<@Belugas>	NEXT
19:29	<@Belugas>	Anyone else?
19:30	<+glx>	better ask pikka directly :)
19:31	<@Belugas>	yeah,,, i guess so...
19:31	<@Belugas>	although i'm giving a try with dbxl somehting
19:32	<Gonozal_VIII>	http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=23171 <-- i thought you were talking about that and i don't know anything about that hex value thingie there
19:33	<Gonozal_VIII>	and dbset is cool :-)
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19:44	<@Belugas>	if it works, i dont see what is the effect :(
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19:53	<@Belugas>	give up for now
19:55	<Greyscale>	sleep tiem nao. nini
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---	Log	closed Sat Oct 20 00:00:26 2007