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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-23

---Logopened Tue Oct 23 00:00:22 2007
00:24|-|Hendikins|Work changed nick to Hendikins
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02:51|-|LN- changed nick to ln-
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03:11<@TrueBrain>burp
03:12<ln->said TrueBrain
03:13<@TrueBrain>you can read! :)
03:13<@TrueBrain>I am so proud of you :)
03:14<ln->i'm the narrator
03:15<@TrueBrain>cool :)
03:15<@TrueBrain>and how are you doing?
03:16<ln->, asked TrueBrain
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03:45<qkr>how do I check if current_player is AI or not?
03:45<@TrueBrain>IsHumanPlayer
03:46<@TrueBrain>works in Trunk anyway
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04:07<dihedral>hi
04:07<dihedral>for the new network command i need NetworkTCPSocketHandler *cs
04:07<@TrueBrain>now where is my narrator?
04:08<dihedral>is there a function in can get this NetworkTCPSocketHandler *cs pre initialized?
04:08<@TrueBrain>dihedral: inside PACKET_XX 'cs' is defined
04:08<@TrueBrain>see other packets
04:08<dihedral>does not seem wo work in DEF_SERVER_SEND_COMMAND_PARAM
04:09<@TrueBrain>DEF_SERVER_SEND_COMMAND_PARAM(PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO)(NetworkTCPSocketHandler
04:09<@TrueBrain> *cs, NetworkClientInfo *ci)
04:09<@TrueBrain>What part don't you understand?
04:10<@TrueBrain>it is better to copy/paste then to try figuring things out yourself :)
04:10<@TrueBrain>just copy the PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO, and you will be fine
04:10<dihedral>i dont understand that when i call it from my console cmd
04:10<dihedral>how i pass cs to the network command
04:10<dihedral>or do i not need to?
04:10<@TrueBrain>ah, you mean it like that
04:11<dihedral>yeah, just batter down on me, even if i mean something different :-P
04:11<@TrueBrain>still the same hold
04:11<@TrueBrain>search for existing pieces of code
04:11<@TrueBrain>and copy/paste it
04:12<@TrueBrain>when I open up console_cmds.cpp, and search for a PACKET_SERVER
04:12<@TrueBrain>I hav ea hit
04:12<@TrueBrain>which shows pretty clear how to do it
04:12<dihedral>existing stuff i have found use FOR_ALL_CLIENTS(cs)
04:13<@TrueBrain>SEND_COMMAND(PACKET_SERVER_ERROR)(NetworkFindClientStateFromIndex(index), NETWORK_ERROR_KICKED);
04:13<@TrueBrain>life is so simple :)
04:13<dihedral>:-P
04:13<dihedral>thank you TrueBrain
04:13<@TrueBrain>really, the search function is your best friend
04:14<@TrueBrain>how is it going with the rest?
04:14<dihedral>pertty well actually
04:14<@TrueBrain>good :)
04:14<@TrueBrain>now I am going to find me a shower
04:14<@TrueBrain>bbl
04:14<dihedral>we love your patch :-P
04:15<dihedral>cu later
04:21<Ammler>dihedral: I am not sure about Version 6
04:23<Hendikins>I should fire up ottd again some time.
04:23[~]Hendikins is now a railway employee :)
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04:29|-|mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
04:30<dihedral>my move clients patch disconnected the client i moved...
04:34<Ammler>dihedral: did you submit your reload patch to bugs.openttd.org ?
04:34<Ammler>if not, you should make it trunkish, I like that very much
04:36<Ammler>I realized that clients automatically rejoin after "newgame", that is very cool.
04:38<@TrueBrain>Ammler: it has been there from day 1 ;) Hehe :p
04:38<Ammler>and Kommer did succesful reload yesterday the publicserver with new configuration without SSH
04:39<Ammler>yeah, but some disconnects, but that might be a problem if there are too many connected...
04:39<@TrueBrain>Ammler: yup, listener backlog isn't that big
04:40<Ammler>TrueBrain: did you check dihedral's reload patch, is it "trunkish"?
04:40<@TrueBrain>I did not check
04:41<Ammler>at least it has some "beta" test behind on our server since 2 weeks...
04:43<dihedral>Ammler: the rejoining of clients is no work of mine
04:43<dihedral>that has always been done when issueing 'newgame' command
04:43<@TrueBrain>I am looking at the images in trg1r, and I see images I have never seen ingame :p
04:43<dihedral>what are they? houses?
04:44<@TrueBrain>road-like
04:44<@TrueBrain>dunno
04:44<@TrueBrain>might be groundsprites
04:44<@TrueBrain>ah, they are
04:44<@TrueBrain>for rail junctions
04:44<Ammler>yeah, maybe I failed at the beginning too, thats why I realized it yesterday first time.
04:45<qkr>where is the "buy new vehicles" window located in the code?
04:45<@TrueBrain>build_vehicle_gui.cpp, in trunk anyway
04:46<qkr>ok thanks
04:46<Ammler>dihedral: one thing for reload patch, default should be true....
04:47<Ammler>I see no reason why using newgame without loading cfg
04:49<dihedral>i use it all the time
04:49<dihedral>or let me rephrase that
04:50<dihedral>when the server reaches restart_game_year
04:50<dihedral>it has the same behaviour
04:50<dihedral>i use that on the stable games
04:53<Ammler>and why shouldn't the game reload cfg?
04:54<Ammler>and at least you can disable it, but I think, reloading cfg would be more used...
04:54<dihedral>my stable games hardly ever change config
04:55<dihedral>you just need it enabled in your config
04:55<dihedral>then, when it reloads the config, it sets that value to true
04:55<qkr>I'm looking at build_vehicle_gui.c, there's only stuff about aircrafts and not other vehicles
04:55<Ammler>its just a small thing,..
04:55<dihedral>Ammler: set nextgame_reload_cfg = 1 on the console
04:56<dihedral>and in section [network] of your config add
04:56<dihedral>nextgame_reload_cfg = true
04:56<dihedral>progmans tool does not everwrite that value :-)
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04:57<Ammler>dihedral: I know that, but I just suggested to change the default, so most people don't have to add that in the cfg
04:57<dihedral>:-P
04:57<dihedral>i was thinking that some people might want to change settings ingame
04:58<dihedral>those then do not get saved :-P
04:58<dihedral>unless there is a saveconfig cmd for the console
04:58<Ammler>ah, ok, possible too
04:58<dihedral>if there is a save config console command
04:58<Ammler>but that will change when they are using grf...
04:58<dihedral>than i can set it to true by default
04:59<Ammler>btw, did you check that already?
04:59<dihedral>if there is a save config cmd?
04:59<Ammler>thats the most needed feature for 0.6 servers i think...
04:59<dihedral>save config?
04:59<Ammler>possibilty to change grf settings on running game
04:59<dihedral>it's possible
05:00<dihedral>my nightly does it for most games
05:00<Ammler>really?
05:00<dihedral>we change some grf's and just run newgame
05:00<Ammler>ah, ok, thats not running game then...
05:00<dihedral>heh no
05:00<dihedral>you mean change grf's and load a save?
05:01<Ammler>you should be able to change grf settings like in single player...
05:01<dihedral>no - that would disconnect all clients... i believe
05:01<Ammler>thats ok
05:01<Ammler>at least for beginning
05:02<dihedral>:-P
05:02<Ammler>but now you have to save it local, load it in sp and change setting, upload to server and reload it there...
05:02<dihedral>it's not even included in trunk...
05:02<dihedral>so i doubt it will be used that much
05:03<Ammler>lol, how many servers do you know, which uses grfs?
05:03<Ammler>(not nightly server)
05:03<dihedral>perhaps 2 or 3?
05:04<dihedral>and how many 0.5 servers do you know that have been compiled and possibly patched by the admins?
05:04<Ammler>I know only Brianettas
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05:04<dihedral>well - then
05:04<dihedral>even less than what i thought :-P
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05:17<dihedral>hmmm
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05:22<Sacro>rawr
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05:25[~]dihedral pats Sacro on the head
05:25[~]Sacro purrs
05:25<Sacro>ooh
05:25<Sacro>Microsoft lecture in 90 mins
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05:26<Sacro>gonna go heckle
05:26<Sacro><3 linux
05:34<qkr>what are "flags" and "guiflags" in
05:34<qkr>#define SDT_VAR(base, var, type, flags, guiflags, def, min, max, interval, str, proc)
05:35|-|Roujin [~Roujin@mnch-4d043e36.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:35<Roujin>hi
05:37|-|kampasky_ [pasky@nikam-dmz.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:40<Roujin>how do i print some debug line?
05:40<Roujin>anyone knows?
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05:41<Roujin>well, surely someone knows, but anyone here can tell me? :)
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05:54<qkr>no idea man, I'm just learning to code openttd myself
05:54<@TrueBrain>Roujin: try DEBUG()
05:55<@TrueBrain>qkr: search lines where SDT_VAR is used
05:55<@TrueBrain>but basicly, you never use that directly
05:55<@TrueBrain>only SLE_XXX
05:55<Ammler>Roujin: compile with --enable-debug (I guess nightlies are compiled this way)
05:56<@TrueBrain>Ammler: not needed
05:56<Ammler>and run openttd with -d
05:56<@TrueBrain>even release builds print DEBUG when using -d
05:56<Ammler>so only selfcompiled doesn't?
05:56<@TrueBrain>even they do
05:56<@TrueBrain>I wouldn't now how to disable it...
05:56<@TrueBrain>--disable-assert most likely
05:57<Ammler>hmm, last time we searched for a bug, I had to ./configure --enable-debug
05:57<@TrueBrain>for gdb, yes
05:57<Ammler>ah, ok
05:58<@TrueBrain>but the -d lines should always print
05:58<@TrueBrain>(when using the correct -d of course ;))
05:58<Ammler>-D
05:58<Roujin>how do i use the different levels?
05:58<Roujin>first, thanks for the answer ;)
05:58<@TrueBrain>Roujin: search for other DEBUG()
05:58<Roujin>will do, thanks
05:58<@TrueBrain>really, OpenTTD is pretty self explaining. Search for other instances, and it will come clear to you :)
05:58<@TrueBrain>we are not here to take your hand and show you everything ;)
05:59<@TrueBrain>and DEBUG is also most likely in the doxygen documentation
05:59<@TrueBrain>(docs.openttd.org)
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06:01<Roujin>sure, if i'd ask every little question i have i would probably be kicked for flooding the channel ;)
06:02<@TrueBrain>Roujin: :) I wish we could hold your hand, really, but.. it would stop us from doing any development ;)
06:02<@TrueBrain>ValueError: unsupported format character 'p' (0x70) at index 43
06:02<@TrueBrain>clear errors, whoho!
06:03<Roujin>thanks for the link.. now i know where that doxygen is, that everyone speaks of ^^ (maybe i should have asked that, instead of about debug ;))
06:03<@TrueBrain>or you should have read the topic ;)
06:03<Roujin>i know i know, i should know such things before even thinking of coding something for ottd ;)
06:04<Roujin>shame on me
06:05<@TrueBrain>hehe :)
06:05<@TrueBrain>I like you :p
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06:06<Roujin>now i'm scared oO
06:06<@TrueBrain>good
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06:15<@TrueBrain>bah, I hate my ISP, it blocks all my ports.. now I can't show your guys what pretty thing I made :)
06:16<Ammler>you have a free connection then?
06:16<@TrueBrain>almost free :p
06:16<Ammler>I wouldn't pay such a ISP
06:16<@TrueBrain>lol
06:16<@TrueBrain>I pay 9 euros for 100 mbit fulld uplex
06:16<Ammler>wow
06:16<@TrueBrain>so, yeah, a small price to pay :p
06:16<ln->per minute?
06:16<@TrueBrain>I have an untrottled connection
06:17<@TrueBrain>meaning with some minor upgrdes, I should be able to get 1 gbit/s
06:18<Ammler>and upload speed?
06:18<@TrueBrain>full duplex
06:18<@TrueBrain>so, 100 mbit/sec up and down
06:18<Ammler>hmm, but no open ports, thats a silly ISP
06:18<@TrueBrain>hehe, else the amount of illegal stuff going over this network would be ^2 of the current rate :p
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06:19<@TrueBrain>but, we always have SSH tunnels
06:19<Ammler>I guess 80 is open?
06:19<@TrueBrain>nope
06:19<Ammler>and the mail ports...
06:19<@TrueBrain>incoming, no ports are open
06:19<@TrueBrain>outgoing, all are open
06:24<@TrueBrain>http://81.171.98.110:8084/
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06:24<@TrueBrain>I love a bit of port forwarding :)
06:25<@TrueBrain>hmm,if the server wouldn't exit without reason...
06:25<Amix>TrueBrain: hello
06:25<@TrueBrain>hi Amix
06:27<Ammler>static MD5File files_openttd[] = {
06:27<Ammler> { "nsignalsw.grf", { 0x65, 0xb9, 0xd7, 0x30, 0x56, 0x06, 0xcc, 0x9e, 0x27, 0x57, 0xc8, 0xe4, 0x9b, 0xb3, 0x66, 0x81 } },
06:27<Ammler>why are the md5sums stored so complicated in the source ?
06:28<@TrueBrain>Ammler: faster comparing
06:28<Ammler>only comparing one byte by one?
06:30<@TrueBrain>Ammler: I dunno :p
06:30<@TrueBrain>I was just guessing
06:31<blathijs>Ammler: The alternative would probably hex-encoding them in a string
06:32<Ammler>yeah, just "my" md5tool only prints the sum in one string...
06:32<Ammler>oh, my akku is going down... brb...
06:42<qkr>oh dear...save games and cfg file go into "my documents" in the latest version, instead of the game directory...that's bad
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06:43<qkr>and I can't load my 0.5.3 savegame...is that normal?
06:44<Gekz>you can fix the save game setting in the config I beliee
06:44<Gekz>believe*
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06:45<qkr>how?
06:47<Amix>someone here knows a site with great themes or wallpapers compatible with Nokia E90 Communicator?
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06:47<AntB>you tried Zedge.net?
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06:55<Ailure>[13:40] <qkr> oh dear...save games and cfg file go into "my documents" in the latest version, instead of the game directory...that's bad
06:55<Ailure>not really
06:55<Ailure>and you can change that by moving over the cfg file I belive
06:56[~]dihedral is back
07:00<qkr>well I guess it's a matter of personal preference where you like to have the cfg or savegames
07:01<@TrueBrain>"Time to generate (since ReadLine()): 0.480890 msec" <- that is _really_ fast :s
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07:02<blathijs>TrueBrain: to generate what?
07:02<@TrueBrain>a dynamic page
07:07|-|dihedral changed nick to Guest289
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07:27<dihedral>yay
07:27<dihedral>moving clients from one company to another works
07:27<dihedral>just have issues with moving to spec
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07:29<@TrueBrain>dihedral: you need to move it to player OWNER_SPECTATOR :)
07:29<dihedral>i used PLAYER_SPECTATOR...
07:29<dihedral>:-P
07:29<@TrueBrain>oh, also fine :p
07:30<dihedral>well - then it did not work
07:31<@TrueBrain>btw, blathijs, I was talking about this page: http://81.171.98.110:8084/
07:32<blathijs>TrueBrain: wth is it?
07:32<@TrueBrain>blathijs: a prototype I am working on
07:32<@TrueBrain>showing what you can do with a bit clever desiging :)
07:32<@TrueBrain>when you press TICK, on the server nothing really happens
07:32<@TrueBrain>the 'game' was already running
07:33<@TrueBrain>(resource-wise nothing happens)
07:33<blathijs>but what is it?
07:33<@TrueBrain>the game is a forloop, building the HTML for that grid, and after an event, changing all bare to normal
07:33<@TrueBrain>as you can see, it is very fast :p
07:35<blathijs>I still don't understand what it does...
07:35<blathijs>You're optimizing the generation of semi-random HTML AFAICS
07:35<@TrueBrain>it is a tiny bit hard to explain :p hehe
07:36<@TrueBrain>basicly: I have a game running on the background, and the http gives events
07:36<@TrueBrain>like: user pressed this, or user wants update
07:36<@TrueBrain>instead of the normal: when a http call is done, the page is generate from scratch
07:36<@TrueBrain>in this case, the page is already there, just waiting to make html
07:37<@TrueBrain>okay, I will stop trying to explain :) I can't ;)
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07:40<qkr>what's wrong when I try to multiply Money with a float and the value is set to 0
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07:45<dihedral>TrueBrain: could it be that SetLocalPlayer is causing the issue
07:45<dihedral>when i move someone to PLAYER_SPECTATOR?
07:45<@TrueBrain>dihedral: I dunno, check it out ;)
07:46<dihedral>assert(IsValidPlayer(new_player) || new_layer == PLAYER_SPECTATOR ...
07:46<dihedral>looks like it :-P
07:47<dihedral>or how does that thing work?
07:47<dihedral>ah - nvm
07:47<dihedral>reading comments helps :-D
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08:10<flea>Hi noob here
08:10<flea>hope I dont annoy anyone
08:10<flea>but im having trouble hosting a server
08:10<flea>any help?
08:10<+glx>what's the problem?
08:11<flea>well my cousin can see the game but it says thats its offline
08:11<flea>and he refreshes and it just disapears
08:12<+glx>is it visible on http://servers.openttd.org?
08:12<flea>ill check
08:13<flea>no it isnt
08:13<flea>so i must have stuffed up somewhere
08:13<@TrueBrain>@openttd port
08:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
08:14<flea>ive looked it up on the forum
08:14<flea>i saw that
08:14<flea>but I have no idea how to change it
08:14<flea>:S
08:14<flea>sorry complete noob to this
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08:15<flea>if it uses those ports is there any settings i have to change?
08:16<dihedral>hmm...
08:16<+glx>you need to configure your firewall/router
08:16<dihedral>TrueBrain: is there a variable i can check for how many companies exist?
08:16<flea>ive allowd it to pass thru the firewall
08:16<+glx>dihedral: players in console
08:16<@TrueBrain>FOR_ALL_PLAYERS(p) if (p->is_active) i++ :p
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08:17<dihedral>yes
08:17<dihedral>i just thought there might be some existing var already
08:18<dihedral>ActivePlayerCount()
08:18<+glx>flea: both UDP and TCP?
08:18<dihedral>found it :-P
08:18<@TrueBrain>dihedral: search is your master :)
08:18<@TrueBrain>euh
08:18<@TrueBrain>:p
08:18<flea>im lookin at it now
08:18<flea>might have it
08:18<flea>brb
08:20<flea>im on vista
08:20<flea>ive gone into firewall settings
08:20<flea>and i can add a port
08:20<flea>and name it
08:20<flea>ect
08:20<flea>is that what im wanting to do
08:21<dihedral>beat you to it this time TrueBrain
08:21<@TrueBrain>dihedral: it was in reply of what you said :)
08:21<@TrueBrain>but okay ;)
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08:22<dihedral>well
08:22<dihedral>i searched and found faster than you told me to search
08:22<dihedral>:-P
08:22<dihedral>it's improving :-D
08:22<@TrueBrain>I am happy for you :)
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08:22<@TrueBrain>or more: for myself :p
08:23<dihedral>:-P
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08:26<flea>ok well mines right
08:26<flea>im jjust tryin to get my cousint ot do it
08:26<flea>i sent him a screenshot
08:26<flea>waitin on an answer
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08:29<flea>while im waiting on him
08:29<flea>where do i go to get the new industry patches?
08:29<flea>ive been lookin all over
08:29<dihedral>http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/move_clients.png
08:29<flea>but cant nav thru the forum that well
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08:30<+glx>you just need a nightly to use new industries
08:31<@TrueBrain>nice work dihedral
08:32<dihedral>i would just like to get it to say the company name rather than the number, but that aint really important
08:32<dihedral>it works :-)
08:32<dihedral>thanks TrueBrain for having me blast out all those questions at you :-P
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08:33<flea>cheers for that bout the new industry
08:33<flea>all the ports were already open
08:33<flea>so i still have no idea why the game wnt show up on the server
08:34<+glx>server_advertise ?
08:34<flea>only when they click add server and put in the ip
08:34<flea>yea its advertised
08:37<+glx>if it's advertised it should be visible on server page
08:39<flea>well thats what i would have thought
08:41<flea>I just tried running to at once and connecting to it
08:41<flea>and it didnt show up
08:41<flea>so it must be on my end
08:41<dihedral>here's the diff: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/r11333_move_clients.v1.patch
08:42<@TrueBrain>(uint32) (atoi(argv[1])); => (uint32)atoi(argv[1]);
08:42<@TrueBrain>and uint32 should be uint16
08:42<@TrueBrain>as client_index is uint16
08:43<dihedral> (atoi(argv[1])); was a copy and paste
08:43<@TrueBrain>do the ci = NetworkFindClientInfoFromIndex(client_index); after the client_index == 0 check
08:43<dihedral>but thanks
08:45<@TrueBrain>if(!IsValidPlayer(player_index) <- missing space
08:46<dihedral>where should the space be?
08:46<@TrueBrain>between if and (
08:46<dihedral>ah
08:46<@TrueBrain>at the end of that line there is a space missing too
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08:47<dihedral>so if () {
08:47<@TrueBrain>yes
08:47<@TrueBrain>patch looks good for the rest, nice job :)
08:47<hylje>if a: ..
08:47<@TrueBrain>hylje: no python :p
08:47<hylje>noes
08:48<dihedral>should i add checks in DEF_SERVER_SEND(PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE) ?
08:48<@TrueBrain>for what?
08:48<dihedral>so i check client_index and player_index actually exist?
08:48<dihedral>in case it gets used for another cmd?
08:48<@TrueBrain>we don't really do it in other cases
08:49<@TrueBrain>you only need to do it on the client
08:49<dihedral>which i do :-)
08:49<qkr>ok my patch is ready, how do I submit it?
08:50<dihedral>you post it
08:50<@TrueBrain>qkr: http://bugs.openttd.org, make sure you mark it as Patch
08:50<dihedral>TrueBrain: Ammler suggested using the netowrk command from client side too
08:50<dihedral>but clients then only specify the company and the password
08:51<dihedral>so basically a PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_MOVE
08:51<@TrueBrain>dihedral: I would not do that, as it makes your patch useless
08:51<@TrueBrain>you move a client to spec
08:51<@TrueBrain>he moves himself back
08:51<@TrueBrain>and it would be 2 packets btw
08:51<@TrueBrain>not 1 :)
08:51<dihedral>well - 1 i already have :-P
08:52<Ammler>TrueBrain: I just thought about general usage
08:52<@TrueBrain>people can leave and rejoin :p
08:52<Ammler>you can join and ask the company for access, they need to give you the pw and you can change...
08:52<dihedral>or, with this patch, ask admin
08:52<@TrueBrain>btw, dihedral, your patch _might_ cause desyncs for the player you move
08:52<dihedral>why?
08:53<dihedral>when building while being moved?
08:53<@TrueBrain>as the player-change isn't queued
08:53<dihedral>?
08:53[~]dihedral is lost, once again
08:53<@TrueBrain>I guess there are some very exeptional conditions which can cause desyncs on it :)
08:53<@TrueBrain>normally, all commands are queued
08:53<@TrueBrain>and handled one by one
08:53<@TrueBrain>with a general clock-ticker
08:53<@TrueBrain>this bypasses it all :)
08:54<dihedral>heh
08:54<@TrueBrain>it shouldn't cause any desyncs
08:54<dihedral>well - then the client only gets kicked
08:54<@TrueBrain>yes
08:54<@TrueBrain>but under some conditions, I can see it happening :)
08:54<@TrueBrain>but odn't worry about it
08:54<dihedral>k
08:55<dihedral>here's the diff: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/r11333_move_clients.v2.patch should i post it on bugs.openttd.org :-P
08:55<@TrueBrain>please do
08:55<dihedral>uh
08:55<dihedral>did not expect you to like it that much
08:56<hylje>TrueBrain lieks nothing
08:56<hylje>;P
08:56<@TrueBrain>dihedral: I don't have to like it in order to find it useful enough to find it worth comitting :p
08:56<@TrueBrain>this isn't my game ;)
08:56<dihedral>lol
08:56<dihedral>rofl
08:59<dihedral>how can i force update on the clients icons in the toolbar
08:59<flea>to install a nightly I simply unzip the file to my OTTD dir and replace?
08:59<+glx>yes
08:59<dihedral>because atm, when i move a client from spec to a company, the client has to click on the icon before the shade dissapears
08:59<Ammler>flea: make a copy first
08:59<@TrueBrain>dihedral: check code around SetLocalPlayer
08:59<flea>yea i have no saved games im interested in
08:59<@TrueBrain>I am sure there is some code giving that away :)
09:00<+glx>yes better to do as Ammler says, so you can have both versions
09:00<flea>o i c
09:01<Ammler>glx: I looked more intensive into the "wrong flag" thing, I can't find a better resolution for flags, then already exists
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09:01<Ammler>6x9 is simply optimal
09:02<dihedral>i'll look into it, and up date the fs ticket if i manage it, but for now: fs1363
09:02<Ammler>next step is double so 12x18
09:02<Ammler>and that won't fit it
09:03<Ammler>(with border 14x20)
09:03<dihedral>Ammler: did you see the party grf from AntB?
09:04<Ammler>so my already submitted "bugfix" is the best, maybe the 1.one from skidd without white...
09:04<Ammler>dihedral: nope
09:04<Ammler>screen?
09:05<dihedral>no - just ran a test
09:05<dihedral>i'll make one in a min
09:06<Ammler>and add it to the "roadmap" if you edit it next time...
09:06<dihedral>i have
09:07<dihedral>i set it to 20something
09:07<dihedral>as we are waiting to hear from the rest
09:07<dihedral>actually it would have to be 30something - 40
09:08<Ammler>dihedral: you removed Soup :)
09:08<dihedral>aye
09:09<dihedral>and i thought i make it as clear as possible :-P
09:09<Ammler>dihedral: I meant a link to the GRF
09:10<dihedral>http://www.tt-forums.net/download.php?id=80367
09:11<Ammler>:) not for me, to the wiki, and not the download link directly just to the post, I suggest...
09:11<dihedral>:-D
09:11<dihedral>why dont you say so
09:12<Ammler>like I did for the snowgrf
09:16<flea>so for new industrys i would need to add the grf yea?
09:20<flea>i added a nightly
09:20<dihedral>my word
09:20<flea>but all im after is the new industries
09:20<dihedral>i am too stupid to fill in a bug report
09:20<flea>and they didnt show up
09:21<dihedral>flea: have a look for pbi
09:21<dihedral>it's a grf
09:21<dihedral>and you can find it on grfcrawler or in the openttdcoop grf pack
09:21<dihedral>dont forget to download the update pack of the coop pack :-P
09:22<flea>ok dou have a link by any chance?
09:22<flea>Im a pain arent I
09:22<Ammler>dihedral: not needed anymore, grfpack is up2date
09:22<dihedral>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
09:22<dihedral>uh
09:22<dihedral>you released final?
09:22<Ammler>except ECS :P
09:23<Ammler>nope
09:23<dihedral>k
09:23<Ammler>final will be out tomorrow or the day after...
09:23<Ammler>if all GRFs are ready
09:23<flea>cheers
09:23<Ammler>hmm, ok, I'll wait until friday
09:24<dihedral>:-P
09:24<dihedral>so the game starts 14.30 CEST?
09:24<Ammler>hmm, 13.30 ?
09:25<Ammler>12.30 UTC
09:25<dihedral>CET = UTC+1, CEST = UTC+2
09:25<Ammler>hmm, yes summer time
09:25<dihedral>:-D
09:25<Ammler>late?
09:25<dihedral>that was my neat way of saying "are you really sure?"
09:29<dihedral>one of the guys lives in the zone GMT+10
09:29<dihedral>i.e. 2030 when we start
09:29<dihedral>i think
09:30<@TrueBrain>http://81.171.98.110:8084/ <- I love AJAX :)
09:31<Phazorx>TrueBrain: these are desyncs and not different client
09:31<qkr>I've posted my patch at bugs.openttd.org...do I need to do anything else?
09:31<Phazorx>heya btw
09:31<@TrueBrain>(yuo can click on AjaxTick :p)
09:31<@TrueBrain>qkr: wait :)
09:31<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: weird desyncs
09:31<Phazorx>TrueBrain: it could very well be WP related
09:31<blathijs>TrueBrain: ah, the tiles are inverting on each reload
09:31<Phazorx>since it started after i put WPs as blockers
09:31<blathijs>I thought they were random permutations
09:32<@TrueBrain>blathijs: no
09:32<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: I will need to see a live example to tell anything about it
09:33<Phazorx>TrueBrain: care to join the server?
09:33<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: sure, give me a revision and patch version
09:33<Phazorx>11336 + v6
09:33<Phazorx>join #openttdcoop.dev
09:34<qkr>is there any way to open a 0.5.3 savegame on the latest build? I get "Broken savegame - invalid chunk size"
09:34<@TrueBrain>qkr: that shouldn't happen
09:35<@Belugas>qkr, i'm not too sure about your change. It is limited, in my opinion
09:35<@Belugas>I would rather see an addition on grf specs instead
09:36<blathijs>qkr: Is that with an unmodified build? Or do you have patches applied?
09:38<qkr>only my own patch
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09:41<qkr>belugas: ok...
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09:44<@Belugas>1) add a ai_cost member to vehicle struct, 2) add a grf property loader fro vehicles in newgrf.cpp 3) branch your code to this new value 4) make sure you provide a default value - in this case, it should be the regular cost
09:44<dihedral>TrueBrain: just found that when moving a client to spectators, i _must_ update the toolbar asap, as that otherwise will assert
09:44<dihedral>if the toolbar is used before it gets updated automatically
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09:46<qkr>what's the difference of doing it the grf way or my way?
09:47<@Belugas>1) grf = configurable per vehicle type
09:47<@Belugas>2) anyone can write his own setting
09:47<@Belugas>3) you do need a path option
09:48<@Belugas>errr..
09:48<@Belugas>3) you do NOT need a patCh option
09:49<@Belugas>4) anyone (O)TTD(P) have the benefit of it, given that TTDP implements its counterpart
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09:51<qkr>ok...I might have to look at that later...
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09:57<@Belugas>it is not that hard, rest assure
09:58<dihedral>recv failed with error 54
09:58<dihedral>:-P
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10:18<dihedral>TrueBrain: can i bother you again with that move clients patch, or are you busy atm
10:18<hylje>moar
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10:19[~]Belugas goes back on customer's site
10:19<dihedral>:-P
10:22<dihedral>when can my game exit with 'Bus error' ?
10:26<hylje>Train Error
10:26<ln->yeah, stick to trains and planes
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11:11<dihedral>const NetworkPlayerInfo *npi = &_network_player_info[player_index];
11:11<dihedral>npi->company_name
11:12<dihedral>for some reason i only get an empty string...
11:12<dihedral>any hints?
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11:27<@TrueBrain>http://81.171.98.110:8084/ <- scroll the map :p
11:28<@TrueBrain>(click left/right/up/down)
11:28<dihedral>i dont get any values for client_name and company_name in their corresponding strucs
11:29<dihedral>TrueBrain: are you reading that data out of a save?
11:29<dihedral>or just random?
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11:33<qkr>is there something wrong with the svn version? planes seem to fly really fast
11:34<Ailure>no that's a feature
11:34<Ailure>:)
11:34<Ailure>their speed is in more scale with real world speed
11:34<Ailure>eh
11:34<Ailure>rather
11:34<Ailure>in scale with other vehicles I mean
11:34<Ailure>before they were flying four times slower than trains I belive
11:35<qkr>well that's nice but it seems to completely unbalance the game...planes are making millions of profit really fast now
11:36<Ailure>also that change happened so long time ago it's not really funny
11:37<Ailure>well some newGRF's balances it out apparently
11:37<qkr>now I get error when I try to load my savegame
11:37<Ammler>[18:30] <TrueBrain> http://81.171.98.110:8084/ <- scroll the map <---- does that need a special kind of browser/plugin?
11:38<qkr>"there is no town in scenario" when I try to load savegame...
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11:41<qkr>I guess I'll have to go back to playing 0.5.3
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11:43<dihedral>Ammler: you need to have javascript enabled
11:44<SpComb>I only get a blank screen
11:44<SpComb>is it a scrollable OpenTTD map, and if so, give me more details, please
11:45[~]SpComb pokes TrueBrain
11:50<dihedral>you need to enable javascript
11:51<SpComb>I have
11:51<SpComb>well, I viewed it with NoScript at first, but then allowed it, still just a blank page
11:52<SpComb>Connecting to 81.171.98.110:8084... connected.
11:52<SpComb>HTTP request sent, awaiting response... No data received.
11:52<Ailure>same
11:52<Ammler>yeah, 1. blank, now no connectin
11:55<@TrueBrain>SpComb: try biw
11:55<@TrueBrain>try now
11:55<@TrueBrain>server crashed
11:55<@TrueBrain>I do not yet handle all exceptions correctly :)
11:55<SpComb>so what is it?
11:56<@TrueBrain>you can scroll a map :)
11:56<@TrueBrain>proof-of-concept
11:56<SpComb>I thought it was a scrollable view of an OpenTTD game :(
11:56<SpComb>prototype.js <
11:56<@TrueBrain>maybe in the future :p
11:56<SpComb><3
11:56<@TrueBrain>for now it is a prototype :)
11:56<SpComb>and firebug, in case you don't have those yet
11:56<@TrueBrain>showing that it can be done :) On very high speeds ( < 1ms)
11:57<@TrueBrain>SpComb: I am not interested in the javascript, more in the backend :)
11:57<SpComb>Prototyp makes your JS code a lot nicer
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11:58<SpComb>Ajax.Request with a function or two as an argument instead of some weird IE/Mozilla/whatever stuff and stateChanged
11:58<@TrueBrain>no, it does it for me :p
11:58<@TrueBrain>SpComb: prototype does that 'weird' stuff
11:58<@TrueBrain>simple wrappers :)
11:58<SpComb>I mean prototype.js, the Javascript library
11:58<dihedral>TrueBrain: i dont get anything with _network_player_info[index]
11:59<dihedral>any hints?
11:59<@TrueBrain>dihedral: nope
11:59<dihedral>k
11:59<@TrueBrain>SpComb: yes, me too
11:59<@TrueBrain>it just does all those things for you
11:59<@TrueBrain>nevertheless, it does do those things
12:00<SpComb>mm, python
12:00<SpComb>is test.txt relevant code?
12:01<@TrueBrain>was an old version of the 'game'
12:01<SpComb>but a scrollable minimap/screenshot is something that might be interesting to do for MyOTTD
12:01<SpComb>modify the OpenTTD code to draw them as .png buffers and stream them directly from the openttd process to the HTTP reply
12:02<hylje>haha
12:02<hylje>see google maps
12:02<@TrueBrain>SpComb: if you reload test.txt, it shows the current code
12:02<SpComb>I've seen google maps before
12:04<SpComb>gah, the half-semester maths exam was last week, and I got through that, but there's a physics and electrical engineering exam next week, and I like really need to study for them if I want to have any hope of getting them done this semester
12:04<SpComb>meaning that I can't really work on MyOTTD... but generally I don't really study for them either, zero interest...
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12:05<SpComb>TrueBrain: JSON!
12:05<Wolf01>hello
12:05<@TrueBrain>SpComb: it has some work :)
12:06<SpComb>what has what work?
12:06<@TrueBrain>and now: FOOD!
12:07<SpComb>hmm, soon it'll have been a month since I posted the topic on the forums
12:08<SpComb>damn maths
12:09<hylje>damm
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12:15<SpComb>damn
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>maths is funny ;)
12:17<ln->even ridiculous
12:17<hylje>are
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje are funny either
12:22<hylje>!
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12:36<SpComb>not when you need to learn five week's worth of maths for an exam on monday
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12:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i never learned for maths...
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12:57<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: please tell me you had to put more effort on learning some other subject?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause3>i suck at sports if that is what you mean ;)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause3>but don't worry, i know people who are even more crazy than me ;)
13:00<@Bjarni>sports is like sex. It's as fun to do as it's boring to watch other people do it
13:03<ln->also sex is like sports.
13:04<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: what was your result in the 12-min Cooper test?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause3>er... i'm not really sure i like what you are insinuating :p
13:04<Eddi|zuHause3>the what test?
13:04<@Bjarni>Cooper test
13:04<@Bjarni>that's the running test
13:05<@Belugas>[14:03] <@Bjarni> sports is like sex. It's as fun to do as it's boring to watch other people do it <- judgment based on your own opinion, Bjarni
13:05<@Bjarni>basically you run as long as you can during 12 minutes and the result is how long you ran
13:05<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper-Test
13:05<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't remember ever doing that
13:05<ln->Belugas: heh, yeah, Bjarni just proved the porn industry cannot exist.
13:05<@Belugas>Bjarni: it can be really fun to watch a good game of somehting you're addicted to, just for the fun of learning new ways of doing..
13:06<@Belugas>ln-, that too :)
13:06<Eddi|zuHause3>all running tests i have done were like "run X (kilo-)meter and take the time it takes"
13:06<@Bjarni>you presume that I mean that watching people having sex should be boring... I never said that :P
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13:06[~]SpComb wonders if he could run 2300m in 12 minutes
13:07<@Bjarni>that's what I think, but I didn't say that
13:07<@Belugas>you did!
13:07<@Belugas>by specifying "sports is like sex", the following sentence thus so applies to both sex and sport :P
13:07<@Bjarni>well... I guess I did
13:08<@Bjarni>but then again, why should it be wrong to tell the truth? :P
13:08<Eddi|zuHause3>what i meant was: if i say "i suck at sport" and you say "sport is like sex" would result in "i suck at sex"...
13:08<Eddi|zuHause3>which is...
13:08<Eddi|zuHause3>... ambiguous at best
13:08<@Bjarni>both sex and sports are physical acts
13:09<@Bjarni>so if you have motor problems, then you could suck at both
13:10<ln->Bjarni: what was your result in the Cooper test?
13:10<@Bjarni>hmm
13:10<@Belugas>[14:10] <@Bjarni> but then again, why should it be wrong to tell the truth? :P <---- YOUR truth, Bjarni, your and only one... You tend to generalize based on your opinions
13:11<@Belugas>[14:11] <@Bjarni> so if you have motor problems, then you could suck at both <--- depends what is the motor problem ;)
13:11<@Bjarni>I did fairly well in the Cooper test
13:11<@Bjarni>but I can't remember the number
13:11<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: it says "this test is unsuited for untrained people"
13:12<@Bjarni>but I can remember that I kept on running when most of the others started to drop out :)
13:13<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: but... there's 11 minutes to train for the last minute.
13:13<@Bjarni>:P
13:15<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: and besides, "untrained people" probably means "fat americans who suffer a heart attack after 100 meters".
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13:16<ln->btw, the english wikipedia has a more sensible table of evaluation of the result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_test
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13:29<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: like i said, i do not remember ever taking this test
13:29<@Bjarni>so basically we don't know how you are physically, but we do know something about your memory
13:29<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: did i claim the opposite since you first said that?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause3>and "fat americans who suffer a heart attack after 100 meters" are unlikely to be meant on a german page :p
13:32<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: but if someone is able -- and used to -- to running a few kilometers without trouble, i wouldn't consider them to be "untrained" in that case.
13:33<Eddi|zuHause3>you see... the "and used to" part is the key element
13:34<ln->i'm not sure if we're talking on general level or about you or someone else specifically now.
13:34<Eddi|zuHause3>great, mission accomplished :p
13:36<ln->and i'm not sure what we're talking about anyway; you said you haven't taken the test, which is acknowledged, yet then you kind of give the "not for untrained" as a reason for not taking the test, although you hadn't even heard about it before.
13:37<@Bjarni>I once missed the bus and had to run 2 km in 10 minutes... I made it even though I had to cross roads (stop and take a look for cars...) and had a backpack
13:37<@Bjarni>so I wouldn't consider myself untrained :)
13:38<@Bjarni>specially because I'm not far or American
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>if i miss the bus, i'd have to run 15-20km
13:39<hylje>if i miss the bus ill wait for the next one
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i usually just go home again in that case...
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>the next bus goes 2h later
13:40<@Bjarni>the problem is that the next bus was scheduled to the very same minute as I should arrive
13:40<@Bjarni>all the way I could imagine everybody at school gathering and look at me when I showed up late... didn't happen :D
13:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i got late to school all the time...
13:41<Eddi|zuHause3>my english teacher was not really fond of me :p
13:41<@Bjarni>you lived right next door to your school?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>(i had english first hour on monday and tuesday)
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13:42<@Bjarni>:P
13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: no, the same 15-20km
13:42<@Bjarni>heh
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>although, the bus went totally early, so i usually went with my father who drove to work
13:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and he cannot get up early either ;)
13:43<ln->getting up early is just unnatural.
13:43<@Bjarni>at one time the trains didn't drive for 30 minutes and naturally a whole lot of us turned up late for a math test. The teacher didn't believe our story about no trains and claimed that we had agreed to show up late to sabotage her test
13:44<@Bjarni>now how obscene is that???
13:44<@Bjarni>note: normally there should be a train every 10th minute so a 30 minute without trains is considered a really long time
13:45<hylje>exactly why the teacher didn't habeeb it
13:46<@Bjarni>nahh... that line is not known to keep the schedule
13:46<@Bjarni>it fucked up today as well
13:46<@Bjarni>all signals in a like 15 km part of it died
13:46<hylje>haha
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13:47<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/sixwords.html
13:47<@Bjarni>with 2 km between the signals in each direction (it's double tracked) it makes a whole lot of signals
13:47<hylje>about 30
13:48<@Bjarni>yeah
13:48|-|qkr [~qkr@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe18fa00-70.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
13:48<@Bjarni>and then the trains should stop at every single one and use the radio to get a permission to pass
13:48<@Bjarni>they fixed it ASAP
13:48<hylje>iow a hour or so later ;)
13:49<@Bjarni>no
13:49<@Bjarni>I don't know how long it took them to fix it
13:49<@Bjarni>but longer than an hour
13:49<hylje>point
13:49<@Bjarni>also I don't know if they actually fixed it or just manned the stations in each end
13:50<@Bjarni>if the stations are manned and they communicate with each other they can declare the track between them as free and give a written permission to each train to allow them to drive and pass all signals in between nomatter what they show
13:51<@Bjarni>so a "fix" could be not to use the signals, but use locally controlled stations like in the steam era
13:51<hylje>with phones
13:51<@Bjarni>I think they would use their internal radio system
13:51<@Bjarni>but phones could work
13:51<@Bjarni>they don't use telegraphs anymore ;)
13:52<@Bjarni>bbl
13:52<hylje>at least here the rail operator runs optic fiber with most rail
13:52<hylje>operates the signal systems and comm
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3>hahaha :p
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3>Leia: "Baby's yours." Luke: "Bad news…"
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3> - Steven Meretzky
14:02<Noldo>Now that Rubidium did the overloadsafeint thing I can check how much my CommandCost thing lags
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14:05<skidd13>Hi
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14:33<dihedral>hello skidd13
14:33<dihedral>TrueBrain: you want to skimm over that? http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/r11333_move_clients.v3.patch
14:34<@TrueBrain>dihedral: not currently
14:34<skidd13>dihedral: comments in the patch?
14:35<dihedral>heh
14:35<dihedral>good point
14:35<dihedral>TrueBrain: i'll post it to bugs
14:37<dihedral>skidd13: it moves a client to any company or to spectator mid game :-)
14:38<@Bjarni><hylje> at least here the rail operator runs optic fiber with most rail <-- optic fibers are too modern for our security approval system. We use copper only
14:38<@Bjarni>basically the system haven't changed in the past 100 years
14:38<skidd13>dihedral: I see, but I miss comments in the patch
14:39<@Bjarni>the basic physics in it... not the signals
14:39<dihedral>i am adding them right now
14:44<skidd13>dihedral: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Coding_style#Documentation might help
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14:44<dihedral>i am copying form other stuff above my code...
14:45<dihedral>no DEV_CLIENT_RECEIVE_COMMAND block has a doxygen style comment block
14:45<dihedral>*DEF
14:45<skidd13>dihedral: If it has not there is no reason why it shouldn't have
14:46<dihedral>it is not a function of that sort..
14:46<skidd13>And?
14:47<skidd13>I see no reason for leaving the documentaion blank
14:48<dihedral>i dont have enough info
14:48<dihedral>as _no_ send or receive block as a docblock
14:49<dihedral>and it is not in the wiki
14:49<skidd13>You coded that stuff you should have.
14:49<dihedral>and they are all called via a diff function
14:49<dihedral>skidd13: as in how to comment the commands with doxygen comment blocks
14:49<dihedral>i know what happens
14:49<skidd13>The function docu describes what the function does
14:49<skidd13>not every part of it
14:50<dihedral>you know how the send commands are called?
14:50<dihedral>you know how the recv blocks are called?
14:50<dihedral>via another function
14:50<dihedral>you want a doxygen doc block for something you cannot call?
14:50<dihedral>i can understand that the inline comments are missing
14:51<dihedral>but if i am not provided with a method that *i know* will be ok for thes blocks...
14:51<dihedral>i have no idea how to comment them
14:51<dihedral>and making function dock blocks for something that is not really a function or called directly
14:52<dihedral>i do not know if that could muddle some documentation up
14:52<skidd13>If the comment is sufficient, I'm satisfied. I only want to tell you that I miss a lot of comments ;)
14:52<dihedral>just working on that right now :-)
14:54<Ammler>dihedral: who else knows that better then you :)
14:55<@Rubidium>little quiz, what's different with normal trunk: http://rbijker.net/openttd/spot_the_difference.png (skidd13 you may not enter this competition ;))
14:57<skidd13>:D
14:57<@Bjarni>may I enter it? :P
14:57<blathijs>There is this weird white-ish track on the bottom?
14:58<skidd13>blathijs: nope
14:58<@Rubidium>Bjarni: no, you only spoil the fun ;)
14:58<blathijs>skidd13: There is! What's the white-ish track then?
14:58<@Rubidium>that's autorail
14:58<@Rubidium>just the cursor isn't drawn
14:58<blathijs>autorail?
14:58[~]blathijs hasn't been playing for a while :-)
14:59<skidd13>blathijs: track placement highlight.
14:59<@Bjarni>o_O
14:59<@Rubidium>a while? meaning 2 years?
14:59<@Belugas>build:c:\c\JJ\sv1020_012br36.gbb
14:59<@Bjarni>ludde made autorail ages ago
14:59<@Belugas>arhgg...
14:59<@Belugas>sorry
14:59<Sacro>@seen ludde
14:59<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen ludde.
15:00<@Bjarni>Belugas: I don't think that's the right answer... but we can't tell for sure until we have decoded wtf you just said :P
15:00<@Bjarni>ludde retired after releasing 0.3.5 or something
15:00<@Bjarni>I think autorail was made on the old svn server
15:01<skidd13>Hey folks no idea...
15:01<skidd13>?
15:01<Ammler>opposite of foundations
15:01<Sacro>hmmm, whats a class 7
15:02<Sacro>freight 45mph methinks
15:02<@TrueBrain>oh, I have a quiz too: what map is this: http://81.171.98.110:8084/ :p
15:02<@Bjarni>Sacro: that's the thing between class 6 and class 8
15:02<Sacro>holy carp
15:02<Sacro>phpttd?
15:02<@TrueBrain>lol :p
15:02<@TrueBrain>no PHP
15:02<@Bjarni>do I really have to tell you everything? :P
15:02<@TrueBrain>would be to darn slow
15:03<@Rubidium>Ammler: where can you see those opposite foundations?
15:03<Sacro>oh noes
15:03<Ammler>north of ore mines
15:03<Sacro>train emergancy stopping ><
15:03<@Bjarni>Sacro: you are on a train right now?
15:03<@Bjarni>or playing a railsim?
15:03<@Rubidium>Ammler: that are just normal foundations
15:04<Ammler>ah I have it now
15:04<skidd13>Ammler: and?
15:05<Ammler>its something liek foundationbridge
15:05<Sacro>Bjarni: no, simsig
15:05<skidd13>Ammler: nope
15:06[~]Rubidium wonders what foundationbridge is
15:06<skidd13>Rubidium: Seems that they build a harmonious picture ;)
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15:08<Ammler>Rubidium: the foundations like you have near the tunnels
15:08<Ammler>but only one tile
15:08<Ammler>they are 2 tiles
15:08<Ammler>so its doable in trunk
15:09<Ammler>the thing you pointed as impossible at saturday
15:09<Sacro>hmmm, this crossing is cleared even though no train is due to go over it
15:09<skidd13>Ammler: nope foundation is a quite icy guess
15:11<@Rubidium>skidd13: seems like people aren't playing enough OTTD to actually notice :(
15:11<Ammler>+ / - ?
15:12<Ammler>hmm, no
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15:12<skidd13>Rubidium: They'll see all changes (I meant the bigger ones)
15:13<Ammler>its clear now, didn't believe it so I started a ottd client
15:13<skidd13>Ammler: and?
15:14<skidd13>share your knowledge.
15:14<Ammler>erail autotool
15:14<skidd13>100 points
15:14<Ammler>:)
15:14<skidd13>wait 50
15:14<@Rubidium>skidd13: noo... only 50 ;)
15:15<skidd13>nope 25 only
15:15<skidd13>;)
15:15<Ammler>there is a second?
15:15<Ammler>or my wrong answers?
15:15<skidd13>but only 50% visible
15:15<@Rubidium>skidd13: well, the last 50 points they can't get as they can't see it ;)
15:15<skidd13>there is a second
15:16<skidd13>Ammler: hard to spot but you are close to it
15:16<Ammler>I have something missing here, the depot should also have some
15:17<Ammler>maybe the convert...
15:17<skidd13>now 50
15:17<skidd13>or 100
15:17<Ammler>tunnel?
15:17<skidd13>*thumbs up*
15:17<@Rubidium>tunnel hasn't changed
15:17<@Rubidium>but yes, the autorail and convert are changed
15:18<skidd13>You can guess the other 50%, cause you know the rest ;)
15:18<Ammler>:)
15:18<@Rubidium>but now you say it, maybe the depot needs another sprite too
15:18<skidd13>Hmmpf.... I thought nobody would notice ;)
15:19<+glx>the other 50% is not visible on screenshots
15:19<Ammler>the english flag?
15:19<skidd13>glx: yes, what is missing ;)
15:19<+glx>cursors I guess
15:19<skidd13>Ammler: nope
15:19<skidd13>glx. yup
15:20<Ammler>Rubidium: do you know, what I mean with "opposite foundations"?
15:21<@Rubidium>something that was "hot" in the TTDP forum a while ago
15:21<Ammler>yeah!
15:21<Wolf01>i missed something?
15:21<Ammler>MB made a shot
15:22<Ammler>dunno if it was fake...
15:22<@Rubidium>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=21831
15:22<@Rubidium>well, it is fake
15:23<Ammler>thats not MBs
15:23<Ammler>I saw other screens
15:24<@Rubidium>same idea
15:24<Ammler>yep, but not fakes, I assume...
15:24<Wolf01>i think that this is possible to do, at least the first one
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15:31<dihedral>heh - how is that, added a bunch of comments :-P http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/r11333_move_clients.v3.patch
15:31<Ammler>Wolf01: Rubidium and Frosch should know it..., its simular to the halftile thing...
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15:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: actually not really
15:35<dihedral>could someone change 'reported version' from 0.5.3 to nightly in FS1363 for me?
15:35<@Rubidium>halftile did not change the map array
15:36<@Rubidium>those "building under slopes" require extra map bits
15:36<@Rubidium>primarily as you can't tell whether it should be a positive or negative foundation
15:39<Wolf01>so... add these extra bits, make this possible in combination with the bridgeheads and other useful things ;)
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15:39<@Rubidium>seems like Wolf01's going to code 'under' slopes and bridgeheads ;)
15:39<Wolf01>yes, why not
15:39<@Rubidium>that'd be nice ;)
15:39|-|Ben_1 changed nick to _Ben_
15:40<@Rubidium>lol ;)
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15:40<Wolf01>i'm trying to code diagonal roads since the old project was abandoned
15:40<Wolf01>and without any improvement
15:40<Wolf01>:P
15:41<Desolator>hi guys (& maybe gals, too)
15:41<Wolf01>the best thing i coded 'til now is the transparency patch
15:41<bruce89>I assume people here know that trunk doesn't work
15:41<Wolf01>hi Desolator
15:41<@Rubidium>Wolf01: have fun with doing some major rework of the pathfinders, as that's required for both bridgeheads and under slopes.
15:42<Desolator>I'm interested in adding stable build support for openttd uptader, however, is there any place in which the last version is stored (on the web), as well as a nice way of getting the zip file?
15:43<Ammler>Rubidium: Wolf01 the problem of this is if you would have that at northside at mountain
15:43<@Rubidium>Desolator: AFAIAA no and no
15:43<Ammler>you can't reach the tile to build somthing anymore
15:44<@Rubidium>Ammler: but only for under and over foundations close together
15:44<Desolator>for nightlies I get the current rev from the changelog, the latest rev from http://nightly.openttd.org/latest/.rev & the zip from: http://nightly.openttd.org/latest/OTTD-win32-nightly-r*****.zip
15:45<Desolator>brb
15:46<Desolator>back
15:47<Ammler>other link to nightly rev: http://nightly.openttd.org/devs/rev (whats the diff?)
15:47<@Rubidium>bruce89: in what manner?
15:47<bruce89>no UI, just a second of music
15:47<Ammler>hmm, date/time
15:48<bruce89>and then a normal exit
15:48<Desolator>I'm asking because I want to rewrite the updater to be cross-platform and want to make it for most stuff
15:49<Ammler>Desolator: something to do with buildottd?
15:49<Desolator>openttd updater
15:50<@Rubidium>bruce89: never heard of it (and it works fine for me)
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15:50<bruce89>unmodified svn here, just snuffs it
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15:51<@Rubidium>bruce89: only a black screen is shown?
15:51<@Rubidium>or absolutely nothing?
15:51<bruce89>no screen at all
15:52<@Rubidium>what video drivers does openttd -h list?
15:52<+glx>did it work before?
15:52<bruce89>of course
15:52<bruce89>null, dedicated
15:53<@Rubidium>so no sdl is compiled
15:53<bruce89>oops
15:53<bruce89>my mistake
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15:54<bruce89>sorry, forgot to install libsdl1.2-dev
15:55<+glx>so not a bug :)
15:55<bruce89>I feel like such an idiot, sorry about that
15:55<+glx>happens some times :)
15:55<+glx>np
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16:25<Maarten>ugh... if my servers go down, its because a fiberline probably burned or something weird, I already lost internet twice yesterday, so far so good today thpough :)
16:30<Phazorx>can someone who has euro on their keyboard please type it
16:30<Phazorx>so i want have to search unicode pages for where it is
16:30<+glx>
16:30<Phazorx>thank you glx
16:31<Eddi|zuHause3>this is so weird, my font does not have an € symbol...
16:31<Eddi|zuHause3>it just shows blank
16:31<Phazorx>not unicde font?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause3>it does show chinese stuff
16:31<Eddi|zuHause3>and russian stuff
16:32<+glx>I hope to have a full unicode font :)
16:32<+glx>(one day)
16:32<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: what os?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause3>linux
16:33<Eddi|zuHause3>it is hard to find the right font...
16:33<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: sounds like a font I could have made :P
16:33<Eddi|zuHause3>so many criteria
16:33<Eddi|zuHause3>it must be unicode
16:33<Eddi|zuHause3>it must be monospace
16:33<Eddi|zuHause3>it must have large font size
16:34<@Bjarni>why monospace?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>it must have thick lines on those large font sizes
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: because of the ASCII art ;p
16:34<@Bjarni>ahh
16:35<@Bjarni>makes sense
16:35<+glx>still not found a nice unicode monospace font
16:35<@Bjarni>and you need large font sizes so you can make large ASCII art and look at even bigger ASCII boobies
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i just don't want to sit 2cm from the screen to decipher the letters
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16:41<ln->how much does it cost to airlift an automobile from, say, finland to somewhere in southern europe?
16:45<Sacro>just drive it
16:45<Sacro>tis a nice days journey
16:46<ln->driving obviously takes time and money (fuel, accommodation)
16:46<ln->and besides i don't have a car
16:47<@TrueBrain>so why would you want to airlift it? :p
16:47<ln->and when one has driven 6000 kilometers (3729.024 miles), the motivation to drive around the destination may be significantly lowered.
16:48<@TrueBrain>ln-: rent a car there
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16:51<ln->that's of course the sensible thing to do, but i'd like to know what kind of price magnitude is it.
16:51<@TrueBrain>ah :) Well, let me know when you figure it out :)
16:52<ln->like... if it costs more than a new car, it doesn't make much sense. if it costs something like 5000€, it could make sense in some situation.
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16:58<SpComb>as opposed to renting?
16:59<SpComb>if you're only there for a while, then you can just rent a car, if you're going to be there for a while, then you could just as well take the time to drive there
17:00<ln->time is money
17:01<SpComb>a day or two compared to how long you'll spend there
17:01<SpComb>airlifting a car will be prohibitively expensive and akward
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17:02<SpComb>and it's not 6mm from finland to south europe
17:02<ln->that's the assumption, yes, but is that a fact?
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17:04<ln->ok, i can believe it would cost ridiculously much if it requires a separate flight, but the mass of a small car is barely 1% of a big cargo plane's capacity.
17:06<@TrueBrain>ln-: give me a city in Finland
17:07<@Bjarni>Turku
17:07<SpComb>Helsinki
17:07<@TrueBrain>are either of you called ln-?
17:07<SpComb>I'm almost called ln, and Bjarni has a @
17:07<ln->either of those cities will do. :)
17:07<@TrueBrain>ln-: first of, it costs 10% import taxes to airlift a car
17:07<ln->within schengen?
17:08<@TrueBrain>schengen?
17:08<ln->well, EU
17:08<@TrueBrain>to, say, France
17:08<@TrueBrain>yes
17:09<@Bjarni>believe it or not, but there are taxes within Schengen. Danes can't just go to Germany, buy a car and take to Denmark without paying customs
17:09<@TrueBrain>importing cars ALWAYS costs money
17:09<@Bjarni>cars are much cheaper in Germany due to the 180% tax on cars in Denmark
17:09<ln->Bjarni: but you can drive your car to germany and back without paying taxes, no?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause3>i think you can surround import tolls if you state that it is your personal car and you are going to export it again
17:10<@TrueBrain>ln-: that is correct
17:10<@Bjarni>ln-: yeah
17:10<Eddi|zuHause3>i remember we went through such a procedure when we took our music instruments to america a while back
17:10<@Bjarni>but somehow they can figure out if it's purchased recently... like when you try to get Danish license plates for it
17:11<@TrueBrain>ln-: nobody wants to give me a price without giving me my name :p
17:11<@TrueBrain>so I think that says enough :p
17:11<@Bjarni>you can try your luck with German plates in Denmark, but that's really bad if the police notice this as you aren't allowed to do so as a Dane
17:11<Eddi|zuHause3>cars should always be registered at the living place
17:11<@Bjarni>yeah
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>at least if you stay there for more than 3 months
17:12<@TrueBrain>you can't buy a car in any EU country if you are not living in that same country
17:12<@TrueBrain>not just like that anyway
17:12<ln->something similar goes for finland; a finnish citizen living in finland is basically cannot legally drive a car with non-finnish plates in finland.
17:12<@Bjarni>it's unusual for Danes to move more than 4 times a year every year
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, only americans move that often :p
17:13<ln->TrueBrain: too bad, it remains a mystery then. :)
17:13<Eddi|zuHause3>in europe, once you own a piece of land, you usually stay there for the rest of your life
17:13<@TrueBrain>ln-: without a valid stay-of-residence, I can't have a car with foreign plates here too (Netherlands)
17:13<@Bjarni>actually I once drove a car in Denmark that didn't have Danish license plates. It had Norwegian, but it was ok as the owner was also in the car. I wasn't allowed to take it for a drive on my own though
17:14<@TrueBrain>anyway, night all
17:14<@Bjarni>ln-: btw what are you trying to do?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>you can probably get around such living place requirements, when it is a company owned car
17:14<@Bjarni>night TrueBrain
17:14<@Bjarni>ln-: buying a car in a cheap country?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>then the location the company is registered in counts
17:15<+glx>buy a logan :)
17:15<@Bjarni>a logan???
17:15<@Bjarni>while you are at it, why not a Tesla Roadster?
17:15<+glx>dacia logan are the cheapest car here
17:15<Wolf01>'night
17:15<Eddi|zuHause3>so if you work for a german company, and live in the netherlands, you can drive such a car
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17:16<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: I don't think that would work in Denmark unless you have to show up in Germany every day for work
17:16<@Bjarni>but some people do that if they live near the border
17:16<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: how would they prove that?
17:17<@Bjarni>they have to have an address that they have to show up on for work
17:17<ln->Bjarni: this is mostly theoretical calculation and comparison of airlift versus driving versus renting.
17:17<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: the cars are usually registered at the company headquarter, the workplace of the people is often somewhere completely different
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17:18<@Bjarni>I don't think that's allowed in Denmark to have an office in Denmark and cars for it that lacks Danish license plates
17:18<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: driving vs. renting depends on the time you stay there, airlift is just a rediculous idea in itself...
17:19<@Bjarni>even the embassies has Danish license plates. Those are fairly easy to spot though since they are blue
17:19<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: ok, let me rephrase: i'd like to know how ridiculous (in per cent, or so).
17:19<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: at least you often see this within germany
17:20<@Bjarni>maybe this is one of the reasons why Danish economy is doing better than the German (when scaled for country size)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause3>economy does not scale with size...
17:20<Eddi|zuHause3>especially if you do not specify which size...
17:20<@Bjarni>population
17:21<@Bjarni>wouldn't make sense to look at land area
17:21<Eddi|zuHause3>just compare the economy of luxemburg with anyone else...
17:21<@Bjarni>because then Greenland would really stick out
17:22<Eddi|zuHause3>these statistics are hardly ever meaningful
17:23<@Bjarni>well... how is the economy doing in Germany?
17:23<@Bjarni>it could be better, right?
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause3>but this is the general rule... personal owned cars are registered at the same place that the persons living address is registered, and company owned cars are registered where the company (usually headquarter) is registered
17:25<Eddi|zuHause3>if a not further specified big car factory is registered in Stuttgart, then every business car of that company is registered in Stuttgart, even if the employee who drives it goes nowhere in a 500km radius of Stuttgart between his workplace and his living place
17:26<@Bjarni>I'm not talking about distance. I'm talking about country boarders
17:27<@Bjarni>I think you can assign all your cars to your Danish headquarters if you like
17:28<@Bjarni>but you can't switch license plates to another country
17:28<Eddi|zuHause3>well, country borders could make things different, because usually companies do not span borders itself, but rather have a subcompany registered in that country
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>so if that car factory had another factory in denmark, that would be a danish company, and would have danish plates on their business cars, only on high management level it would be connected to the german main factory
17:29<@Bjarni>the main reason for this is that you pay fees on the license plates and those fees pays for road repairs so if you move your license to another country while you still use the Danish roads, then you wear on the roads without paying. The system tries to prevent this
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause3>the system does not necessarily need to prevent this, just balance it out
17:31<@Bjarni>There is nothing like this for trains though so they are moved across boarders as needed. If you do an action where you have to pay (like renting tracks), you pay for where and how much you drive and they don't care if it's a Danish or German train as long as they get their money
17:31<@Bjarni>I like the rail system better, but it only works because everybody knows how much each train drives
17:32<@Bjarni>you can't do this to cars unless you place GPS in them and let the government read it at all times
17:32<Eddi|zuHause3>for example a truck does around 1000 times more damage to roads than a car, so they put up a toll for trucks using the autobahn, which is payed even for foreign trucks
17:32<@Bjarni>I know
17:33<Eddi|zuHause3>the real problem is, that they are already on the way to generalising that to all cars
17:33<Eddi|zuHause3>which would have onboard units, to track the paths they go
17:33<@Bjarni>some Danish lorry company owner went to the politicians to get reduced tax because now he started to lose money in Germany and he wanted it to be evened out
17:33<@Bjarni>I don't think his plan worked
17:34<Eddi|zuHause3>together with 6 months mandatory storing of all mobile phone connections together with the transmitter station which i was connected to...
17:35<Eddi|zuHause3>it's 1984 all over again
17:35<Eddi|zuHause3>Stasi 2.0
17:35<@Bjarni>in Denmark you can get cheap insurance if they are allowed to place a tracking device in your car. Every time you are speeding, you increase in insurance payment (sort of like an automated fine). Some people pick this because if they don't speed then it's a really good offer
17:38<@Bjarni>there is a difference between this and Stasi
17:39<@Bjarni>Stasi did it to protect their own ass. This is to protect society
17:41<Eddi|zuHause3>stasi also wanted to "protect" the "society"
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>i think it's a really dangerous road to take... if they already start like this now, there might not be a lot of "society" left to protect in ~50 years
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>but of course politicians don't think further than the next election
17:44<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: let me put this in another way. Say there is a road with a speed limit of 80 km/h. Often some people drive more than 150 km/h and this is likely to kill random people. Are you willing to keep track of speeding cars on that road?
17:46<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: are you going to keep track of all the cars on the road to find the speeding cars or are you going to let them continue their deadly race and kill random people?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: let me rephrase that: are you rather willing to risk that a random youth guy kills himself while driving 200km/h on a straight road and looses control, or that your future employee that you are applying to can get to know when and how often you cheated on your wife?
17:47<@Bjarni>1: naturally you don't cheat on your wife
17:47<@Bjarni>2: how should your future boss know (how should he get the info)?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, right... "when you are innocent, you have nothing to hide anyway"
17:48<@Bjarni>yeah
17:48<ln->Bjarni: information can be bought, or searched with google.
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>... or hacked, or forced to be open per law...
17:49<@Bjarni>hopefully the system should prevent this from happening
17:49<ln->how?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah... "should"...
17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>"nobody has the intention to build a wall"
17:49<@Bjarni>1: don't connect the database to the internet
17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>we all know how that phrase turned out
17:49<@Bjarni>that's basically the most secure way of prevent a database from hackers on the net
17:50<ln->the technology hopefully is not the weak link, but the people using it.
17:50<@Bjarni>that's the next issue
17:51<@Bjarni>we should punish lawbreakers when we find them instead of sending them to the jails we have today... some of them are kind of like hotels
17:51<@Bjarni>and they should stay there
17:51<@Bjarni>this will partly solve the problem. If the gain is not worth the risk then the problem is reduced a lot
17:52<@Bjarni>also how do you read the data... what if the staff can't access individual people to track them?
17:53<ln->in order to be punished, one should first get caught.
17:53<@Bjarni>like if it is based on what cars are on a road instead of "where is this car"?
17:53<ln->and at that point the leak has already happened.
17:54<@Bjarni>why do I feel like you guys tries to hide your whereabouts?
17:56<ln->Bjarni: clearly someone will have the access to make any kind of queries he wants.
17:56<@Bjarni>you know, in a train today, the position is recorded with GPS. Changes in location calculates the speed. The record also shows who is on board. All this is logged and can be read at a later date (usually only looked at in case of accidents). Is this a problem?
17:56<@Bjarni>oh, all radio communication is also logged
17:56<ln->what record?
17:56<@Bjarni>the railroad has some central record where all trains are logged
17:57<ln->do your trains have passenger manifests?
17:57<@Bjarni>usually not
17:57<@Bjarni>but I'm talking about the crew
17:58<@Bjarni>they are always logged who they are
17:59<@Bjarni>in fact if the driver goes to the bathroom or something and will not miss out on radio calls while he is away from the engine, the GPS will track his movement to the bathroom and it will later be visible if he were walking or running toward it
17:59<@Bjarni>this is how it is now. Do you consider this to be a problem?
17:59<ln->but if one chooses to skip their day at work, you don't know their location anymore.
17:59<@Bjarni>nobody bothers to look at this data
17:59<@Bjarni>naturally if they aren't at work, they can't be tracked
17:59<Eddi|zuHause3>a company keeping track of its employees at work is a whole other issue than a state keeping track of its citizens no matter when
18:00<@Bjarni>since they are tracked from when they start the train until they stop it
18:00<@Bjarni>but it's not (only) the railroad company keeping track
18:01<Eddi|zuHause3>no, but the railroad company cannot keep track of you once you leave the railroad
18:01<@Bjarni>parts of this is mandatory documentation to show the government. Usually they are the only ones looking at it
18:01<Eddi|zuHause3>so, and who is "the government", and what is "usually"?
18:01<@Bjarni>and they only bother if the train derails or something. Then they want to know if anybody mentioned the bad tracks on the radio and how fast the train drove
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>the railroad surveillence department, sure
18:02<ln->if you go to work to your office in the morning, and leave it in the afternoon, and others have seen you, you have been "tracked" and your location during that day is known.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>criminal investigation?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>terror defence?
18:02<@Bjarni>government is the "unit" that ensures that railroad safety is ok. Kind of like how police acts on the roads
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>intelligence agencies?
18:03<Eddi|zuHause3>once one intelligence agency has access to this kind of data, all intelligence agencies all over the world have access to it
18:03<Eddi|zuHause3>do they also count as "the government"?
18:03<@Bjarni>and "usually" as I presume that the railroad keeps track of how the individual trains acts when they are delayed and stuff
18:03<ln->Bjarni: what do you think about the claim: if data is available, it will be abused (because of curiosity or money, or whatever) sooner or later, be it legal or not?
18:05<ln->especially if the risk of getting caught is minimal.
18:05<Eddi|zuHause3>what do you say when your (tourist-) visum to USA is rejected because they found out you showed up late at work often?
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18:05<ln->(visum -> visa)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause3>visum is the singular of visa
18:05<ln->but it's not english
18:05<Eddi|zuHause3>at least in "real" languages ;)
18:06<ln->well, yes, you know what happens when you mix up german, french and swedish.
18:06<@Bjarni>why would they reject you based on something like that?
18:06<ln->why the hell not?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause3>because they state that you could support terroristic activity in that time?
18:06<@Bjarni>then they might as well reject you for being too tall
18:06<Eddi|zuHause3>or just that they can prove rebellious character of yours?
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause3>if you disobey one rule, why should they expect you to obey other rules?
18:07<ln->i heard of a case, where a finnish woman in her 20's had applied for a 3-month-or-so visa to the US in order to visit her sister's family and travel around the states... and she got the visa, too.
18:08<@Bjarni>so basically we should have no traffic control because then you fear to be mistaken as terrorists?
18:08<ln->... at JFK, the officials decided she's likely to stay in the states after the visa expires, as an illegal immigrant, so she was handcuffed and returned to the Finnair plane.
18:10<@Bjarni>well... in Russia she would have been jailed by FSB even if she had approved papers from FSB
18:11<ln->i haven't heard of any even remotely similar cases with Russian authorities
18:12<@Bjarni>I have heard of one
18:13<@Bjarni>a non-Russian business man taking a one day trip from one part of the country to another with the proper papers from the local FSB office (FSB tracks everybody there... just like KGB did) and on arrival he was arrested while they checked his papers and while they could see that they were not faked, they disagreed with the order and kept him for a week
18:14<Sacro>ahh Bjarni
18:14<ln->was that before or after the russian revolution of 1917?
18:14<@Bjarni>it was in 2002 or something
18:15<ln->02:03 < ln-> Bjarni: what do you think about the claim: if data is available, it will be abused (because of curiosity or money, or whatever) sooner or later, be it legal or not?
18:15<@Bjarni>Sacro: do you feel that security cameras are there to record you to be used against you at a later date like when you are trying to get a job?
18:16<@Bjarni>I bet Sacro is recorded every single day
18:16<@Bjarni>well, except on weekends where he stays at home
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18:16<Sacro>Bjarni: security cameras don't bother me
18:16<Sacro>i don't lead a very interesting life
18:16<Sacro>the one person whose more sad than me is the guy who sits and watches what i do
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18:18<@Bjarni>Sacro: how would you feel if you had a car and the government could track this car. They will use this info for road pricing and speeding tickets (kind of like how the cameras are used)?
18:18<Sacro>i can't stand the idea of pay per mile
18:18<Sacro>sometimes i just like to get on my motorbike and head off down a road
18:18<@Bjarni>well.. that's one way to put it
18:19<Sacro>i already pay fuel tax
18:19<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm sure there would be "flatrate" offers, but that is not the point
18:19<Sacro>our country has the cheapest fuel in the EU (pre tax)
18:19<Sacro>our country has the most expensive fuel in the EU (post tax)
18:19<ln->Sacro: see, you don't fight in iraq for nothing
18:20<@Bjarni>Sacro: forget about the issue about paying per mile... the issue we are talking about is the possibility of other people to track your movement. How would you feel about this?
18:20<Sacro>Bjarni: it depends
18:20<Sacro>if i'm just aimlessly driving around then it's fine
18:21<Sacro>but sometimes I just want some alone time
18:21<@Bjarni>the data is secured like the data recorded with video today
18:21<@Bjarni>so if anybody decides to look at it, they have to have access clearance and it will be logged so it's not something people do without any reason
18:22<+glx>here we have automatic speed control, but we learnt today that most of them are not correctly installed
18:23<+glx>so they can tell you were driving at 96km/h when you were at 88km/h
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18:23<@Bjarni>we have a piece of road where the police can't measure speed (limited space next to the road) and the politicians banned camera speed control, so those guys who wants to drive really fast go there and drive 200+ km/h
18:23<@Bjarni>because you can't get caught
18:24<@Bjarni>it goes without saying that it's a place with frequent major accidents
18:24<+glx>you can't stop stupid people to be stupid
18:25<@Bjarni>but you can catch them and try to prevent them from doing it over and over
18:25<@Bjarni><Sacro> but sometimes I just want some alone time <-- and you think you can get that with the cameras, but not with a tracking device?
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18:26<ln->Bjarni: speed measurement does not require cameras or radars.
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18:26<@Bjarni>then how will you do it?
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18:27<Sacro>why do you want to stop stupid people?
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18:27<+glx>because they can kill you
18:27<Sacro>darwin tells us that sooner or later they will evolve themselves out
18:27<@Bjarni>the idea is to prevent them from killing random people
18:28<ln->Bjarni: x = v*t
18:28<ln->solve t
18:28<@Bjarni>ln-: yeah, but how do you plan on doing this? You need to get the info somehow
18:29<+glx>induction loop could be used for that
18:29<ln->Bjarni: you place one policeman with a radio at x[0]. he reports the plate numbers to the patrol at x[0]+2km.
18:29<@Bjarni>the issue is that if the police uses this, then they have to have one guy keeping track of a car and measure the time between two known spots (hence x and t) and to do this they need to be in a helicopter
18:30<@Bjarni>I don't think the law allows for two police officers to work together like this
18:30<ln->i don't see a helicopter anywhere in "x = v*t"
18:30<+glx>and if you see the first you slow down
18:31<@Bjarni>you see it feels like the laws the police can use to catch speeding cars are made by politicians who don't want to get caught
18:31<+glx>but can be a solution to force people to slow down
18:31<ln->glx: he doesn't need to be particularly visible.
18:31<+glx>ln-: that's illegal here
18:31<+glx>they must be visible
18:31<@Bjarni>we know for a fact that the minister (former government) was caught driving 18x km/h where the limit was 110 km/h
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18:32<+glx>wasn't his driver?
18:32<@Bjarni>so not surprisingly he never really gave the police permission to automatically track cars
18:32<@Bjarni>he was his own driver at the time
18:32<ln->glx: well i don't mean like hiding in the bushes, but rather sitting in a (civilian-looking) car. is that illegal too?
18:32<@Bjarni>off hours
18:32<@Bjarni>during the weekend
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18:33<+glx>they must be in uniform
18:33<@Bjarni>the police don't have to be visible here but they aren't allowed to measure speed unless they have a man on the location dedicated to measure speed
18:33<ln->glx: uniform is fine.
18:34<@Bjarni>so it's ok to set up a camera that takes pictures of all speeding cars as long as it has a police officer next to it looking at it
18:34<@Bjarni>in theory it will do the very same task if he leaves, but then it's not valid reason to fine the drivers anymore
18:35<+glx>and usually the first measure speed and tell the second to stop you if you were driving too fast
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18:35<ln->i was just about to ask Bjarni whether their cops don't have a second patrol handling the stopping.
18:35<@Bjarni>they can tell another patrol to actually stop the car if they like
18:36<@Bjarni>they often do that, but then they have to be like 4 people or so working on this particular task... they don't have the staff to do that often enough
18:37<@Bjarni>I like the Dutch solution where all license plates are memorised at certain spots and since the system knows the distance it can calculate the speed and fine the drivers if needed
18:37<@Bjarni>the politicians here don't want it :s
18:39<+glx>http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nouvelle_armoire_automatique.jpg <-- we have these nice boxes
18:40<Sacro>http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,512897,00.html
18:40<Sacro>strange german pensioners
18:40<+glx>most of them gives incorrect speeds as a recent report said
18:41<+glx>because positionning angle has not been verified carefully
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18:42<@Bjarni>oh speaking of fines... some German tourist parked illegally and blocked the access road for a firetruck. The firetruck then pushed it away and moved on. The police showed up and found the owner looking at his car. One of the officers walked up to him and said "this isn't good... we need to know who you are and where you live". He then gave all the info they asked for and then they said "now you will get a parking fine and a bill fo
18:42<@Bjarni>r fixing the firetruck with the mail and you have 24 hours to get your car moved away or you will be fined for dumping a wrecked car as well"... then he got mighty upset
18:42<@Bjarni>but hey.... he blocked the accessway to a burning building so the firetruck had no choice and it was clearly signed... he should have known better :P
18:44<@Bjarni>Sacro: "the pensioner had been trying to get to a cemetery" <--- that can be read in more than one way :P
18:44<Sacro>Bjarni: heh
18:44<Sacro>doing 3mph on an autobahn is a good way
19:47<@Bjarni>we once had to get from A to B at school (part of gym) and we should do it on our own (we each had a map). One guy decided to take a shortcut and crossed the freeway on foot.... in front of a police car. Those officers were so kind to him that they drove him the last way (he clearly didn't want to walk more than absolutely needed) and they had a little chat with the teacher
19:47<@Bjarni>he was 16 at the time
19:47<@Bjarni>I think
19:47<@Bjarni>maybe 17
19:49<@Bjarni><Sacro> doing 3mph on an autobahn is a good way <-- going against the traffic is another good way
19:49<ln->Bjarni: does the goverment surveillance camera in your bedroom bother you?
19:50<@Bjarni>like they would be interested in the amount of action that doesn't take place there :P
19:50<ln->but, well, if everyone had one in their bedroom.
19:50<@Bjarni>there is a difference between being at home and outside home
19:51<@Bjarni>I see no logical reason for the government to be a peeping Tom
19:51<Sacro>actually
19:51<Sacro>i'd work for the government if i could perve on the girls next door
19:51<@Bjarni>good point
19:51<ln->Bjarni: that could help preventing crimes, e.g. rapes and interaction with minors taking place in people's bedrooms.
19:52<@Bjarni>but how would you justify that as a crime preventing issue?
19:53<@Bjarni>ln- has a point
19:53<@Bjarni>but then we would need to put up cameras everywhere
19:53<@Bjarni>secret basements included
19:54<@Bjarni>but... the cost/security gained radio might not be high
19:54<@Bjarni>it would be better to secure the roads
19:54<@Bjarni>specially if it's combined with road pricing
19:56<@Bjarni>actually... I fail to see the link between speed control on roads and recording people's bedrooms
19:56<ln->Bjarni: well the FBI put hundreds of millions of dollars on a new, computerized case file system, and eventually had to abandon the system before it was even taken into use.
19:56<@Bjarni>if you want to do something that nobody else should know about, do it at home
19:57<@Bjarni>so?
19:57<@Bjarni>I fail to see the connection
19:57<ln->so money is not an issue when there's a lot of it.
19:57<@Bjarni>money is always an issue
19:57<@Bjarni>somebody screws up once in a while
19:57<@Bjarni>that's not the same as money isn't an issue
19:58<@Bjarni>ln-: do you want a $200 ice cream
19:58<@Bjarni>it's just like a normal one, except it costs $200
19:58<@Bjarni>you just claimed money not to be an issue :P
19:58<ln->_when there's a lot of it_.
19:59<@Bjarni>basically you are saying that you don't want the police to be able to track speeding cars if we don't record all bedrooms as well?
19:59<@Bjarni>that sounds like the mafia
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20:00<@Bjarni>either they want to be able to speed or they want to be able to blackmail based on what goes on in the bedrooms
20:00[~]Bjarni marks ln- as a gangster
20:00[~]Bjarni arrests ln-
20:01<ln->this is going a little side-tracked now
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20:16<ln->Bjarni: still no Leopard, maybe tomorrow
20:16<ln->or (tomorrow)²
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20:29<@Bjarni>ln-: Apple declares that they will release in 2 days and 15 hours... fat change that it will arrive tomorrow :P
20:29<@Bjarni>anyway
20:30<@Bjarni>goodnight
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20:38<Amix>http://naurunappula.com/7953/rtfm-hmc-sd.jpg
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21:39<JdGordon>hey, are there any working patches so you can auoreplace diesel/electric trains with monorail?
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22:15<DeGhosty>hey hey
22:15<DeGhosty>what's passing arg 1 from incompatible pointer type?
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22:42<DeGhosty>nvm
22:42<DeGhosty>smoking too much
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22:56<jeordie>hello.
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23:47<alphax>Hi, can some one tell me what means about "Tiles between double bend" (mentioned in the manual page "Game_Mechanics.htm")?
---Logclosed Wed Oct 24 00:00:54 2007