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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-10-27

---Logopened Sat Oct 27 00:00:49 2007
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05:20<Wolf01> Frostregen, we need to finish our eyecandy patch :D
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05:49<Ailure>talk about orginal use of current graphics
05:50<Wolf01> do you mean this ;)
05:55<Ailure>I remember that patch
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06:54<Phazorx>hmm... apparently any pre-NI made scn with added NI (at least PBI) fails to have prices for cargo
06:54<Phazorx>can that be corrected at save file level somehow?
06:55<@Rubidium>rather pre-NC I guess
06:55<@Rubidium>and I wouldn't have a clue how to fix it
06:56<Phazorx>sad... that spils #wwottdgd game that si about to start
06:56<Phazorx>since we just noticed it
06:57<Eddi|zuHause2>create a new game and copy the map?
06:58<Eddi|zuHause2>if you do uncompressed savegames, you should be able to just replace the chunks
06:58<@Rubidium>I even think that newgrfs are not meant to support what you want.
07:01<Phazorx>Rubidium: huh ?
07:02<@Rubidium>replacing already existing cargos in an existing game without any problems
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07:02<Phazorx>Rubidium: adding to a game with no industries did not work wither
07:02<Phazorx>on scn level
07:03<@Rubidium>that's again replacing already existing cargos in an existing game
07:03<Phazorx>i guess so
07:03<Phazorx>no workaround ?
07:03<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2's way?
07:04<Phazorx>like hack client to resave the values?
07:04<Phazorx>Rubidium: well that is a relatively long way, hacked client can work on compressed
07:04<Phazorx>i just need to know what part of save file needs to be affected
07:06<@Rubidium>what do you personally think?
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07:06<Phazorx>i personaly do not know what data piece needs to be modified
07:06<Eddi|zuHause2>if it works anything like other RIFF files, each chunk has a 4 byte size and a 4 letter name
07:06<Phazorx>and it is easier digging the code that a binary fine
07:07<Phazorx>but if one knows what to look for - save is easier
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07:08<Eddi|zuHause2>you "just" need to choose if you want to copy the chunk from the first or second savegame
07:08<Eddi|zuHause2>and then update the size of the parent chunk
07:08<@Rubidium>Phazorx: do you think it is in the code that saves vehicles? that saves towns?
07:08<@Rubidium>continue that and you'll automatically find some place where it might be saved
07:09<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: what games are you reffering to exactly ?
07:09<Phazorx>Rubidium: with nerwgrfs in the way it gets a bit more blurry in terms of what part being saved where
07:10<Eddi|zuHause2>the scenario without newcargo, and the new game with newcargo, but without map
07:10<Phazorx>the data comes from code obviosly
07:10<Phazorx>but cargo costs is a framework data
07:10<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: that sound very hackish
07:11<Phazorx>but for starters is there an easy way to save something uncompressed?
07:13<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, just skip the call to zlib
07:13<dihedral>is it possible to calculate the "seed" of an scn?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause2>dihedral: there should be a console command for that
07:14<Eddi|zuHause2>dihedral: but that will not help if there are custom modifications to the scn
07:14<dihedral>yes - thought of that too just now :-P
07:16<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: another way would be to find the function that loads cargo data, and instead call the matching function from generate new game
07:16<@Rubidium>Phazorx: ever tried searching OTTD's source for the words cargo and payment?
07:17<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: that;s a major mode
07:17<Phazorx>Rubidium: the numbers i am looking for as well as cargo ides are not in data i can see
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07:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11349 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1372]: crash when moving "invalid" cargo to a station.
07:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11350 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Change: add missing elrail sprites for some rail build buttons/cursors. Sprites by skidd13.
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07:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11351 /trunk/src/os/macosx/splash.cpp: -Fix (r11342): [OSX] killed a warning
07:27<@Rubidium>Bjarni: that warning "fix" you made yesterday is a little double and is a bug in the OSX compiler
07:29<@Rubidium>moving the default to the top of the switch already silenced the warning, which means you did not need to add that: return false; // kill warning generated by a broken compiler
07:30<@Bjarni>moving the default didn't solve it, but I figured that if I didn't move it somebody would and kill the return
07:30<@Rubidium>moving the default did not kill the warning?
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07:30<@Rubidium>if that's the problem we should stop supporting the OSX compiler due to very big bugs
07:31<@Rubidium>and making it not-inlined should've solved the warning too, according to TB
07:31<@Bjarni>well... making it non-inlined would slow down the binary. I didn't want to do that
07:31<@Rubidium>anyhow, I vote for stopping OSX support because they cannot implement switch in their compiler in a semi-proper manner, i.e. their compiler does not support fall-through it seems
07:32<@Bjarni>I know it's not much, but it would be silly to make a slower binary due to a silly warning
07:32<@Bjarni>moving the default works everywhere else... I can't explain why it didn't work here....
07:33<@Rubidium>Bjarni: how often is that piece of code called?
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07:33<@Rubidium>effectively that is per second max
07:34<@Rubidium>and how likely is it that the compiler decides by itself that it can inline that function?
07:34<@Rubidium>and by deciding it itself it does not warn about it
07:34<@Rubidium>hi Maedhros
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07:36<Phazorx>Rubidium: how exactly saving of NC/NI data into the map works?
07:37<Phazorx>i have uncompressed test saves that are basicly blank, one with scn based on std, and another one with same scn but added PBI
07:37<Phazorx>they differe by ~1Kb in favor of STD
07:37<Phazorx>so nc/ni apprears to have less data
07:37<Maedhros>hey Rubidium
07:39<@Rubidium>Phazorx: that's probably sucky compression or so
07:39<@Rubidium>or a few game loops
07:39<Phazorx>Rubidium: paused map, no compression
07:39<Phazorx>map is flat 64x64 with nothing on it
07:39<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: i suggest adding the newgrfs before creating the map
07:39<Phazorx>aside of town record with 0 population
07:40<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i added grfs into scn
07:40<Phazorx>in one of cases
07:40<Phazorx>i'm trying to see the difference
07:40<Phazorx>as you suggested
07:40<Phazorx>but i see difference in size mostly
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07:41<@Rubidium>Bjarni: have you already found out how often your needs-to-be-inlined function is called?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: have you disabled compression?
07:41<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: yes
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07:42<Phazorx>it is uncompressed maps i look at
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07:43<dihedral>Phazorx: is there anything i can be doing atm?
07:44<Phazorx>moderating the game as it is ?
07:45<dihedral>game has not started
07:46<dihedral>we had a fixed time and i thing we should load the game at official start time
07:46<Phazorx>aside of not having a good game to load you are all set
07:47<dihedral>we have another 30 mins
07:47<dihedral>lets do what we can
07:47<Phazorx>dihedral: i woke up ~30 hrs ago :)
07:47<dihedral>Kommer is in the game
07:47<Phazorx>that's good
07:47<dihedral>we have TS btw
07:48<Phazorx>i'll get on it :)
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07:48<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: any better pointsrs to section of the save file that controls cargo and prices ?
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07:49<dihedral>Phazorx: should we just pause the game for now?
07:49<Phazorx>why ?
07:49<dihedral>untill we have official start?
07:49<Phazorx>actualy what should be thought thorugh is global ML design and layout
07:50<Kommer>will the map be reloaded on restart? so everything removed?
07:50<Maedhros>the chunks labelled PRIC and CAPR would seem like good places to start
07:50<Phazorx>in fact if we lucky it will be even a bit different map
07:51<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: have you seen economy.cpp:1904?
07:51<Kommer>Phazorx: a question in the admin channel from me. can you awnser it?
07:52<Eddi|zuHause2>"static void SaveLoad_PRIC()"
07:54<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: we have very different economy.cpp
07:54<Phazorx>1904 is part of CommandCost CmdBuyCompany(TileIndex tile, uint32 flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause2>forget the number
07:57<Phazorx>yeah i found it in both cpp and save
07:57<Phazorx>is there a minimum section size?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause2>the size of the chunk are the 4 bytes before the name
07:58<Eddi|zuHause2>4 byte "size", 4 byte "name", size byte "data"
07:59<Eddi|zuHause2>that is RIFF format
07:59<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i see chunks GPRS<2bytes>CAPA<2bytes>PRIC
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08:00<Phazorx>4 bytes before grps are blanks
08:00<Phazorx>GRPS sorry
08:00<Eddi|zuHause2>you're in a hex editor?
08:01<Eddi|zuHause2>are there more occurances of "PRIC"?
08:02<Phazorx>nope only one at very end
08:02<Phazorx>but i had a question about format
08:02<Phazorx>i dont see mentioned pattern of 8 bytes header
08:02<Phazorx>since i see 3 names in 16 bytes
08:02<Phazorx>prefixed by 4 null byts
08:03<Eddi|zuHause2>how does the file start?
08:05<Phazorx>perhaps there are embeded sections?
08:05<Phazorx>i mean chunks inside chunks
08:06<Eddi|zuHause2>sure, each "data" part can consist of more chunks
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08:08<Eddi|zuHause2>does the file size happen to be 82kb?
08:09<Eddi|zuHause2>no, wrong
08:09<Phazorx>-rw-rw-rw- 1 user group 169525 Oct 27 07:36 pbi0.sav
08:09<Phazorx>-rw-rw-rw- 1 user group 170679 Oct 27 07:36 pbi1.sav
08:10<Phazorx>i compared PRIC and CAPA sections they are same
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08:10<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, because you did not add the newgrf BEFORE creating the map
08:11<Maedhros>they shouldn't be though - PRIC should store 49 int64s, and CAPR should store 32 int64s
08:11<Phazorx>Maedhros: i mean same between 2 saves
08:11<Maedhros>oh, right
08:12<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: see you point habg on
08:12<Eddi|zuHause2>but i can't find the functions that create these values at startup
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08:14<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: CAPR is different
08:14<Phazorx>Maedhros: is CAPR the one that stores cargo/time price ?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause2>is it same size?
08:15<Maedhros>yes, it is
08:15<Phazorx>content is different
08:15<Phazorx>Maedhros: anything else affects it ?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause2>then try to copy that segment into the real savegame
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08:15<Maedhros>and for some reason it's initialised in misc.cpp (InitializeLandscapeVariables())
08:16<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, if one could find that initialisation function, you could put that in afterloadgame or something ;)
08:16<Phazorx>hmm CAPR in real map does not look like one w/ or w/o PBI
08:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: desyncs
08:16<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: because they change over time?
08:17<@Rubidium>and it doesn't take care of inflation properly either
08:17<Maedhros>Eddi|zuHause2: it's already in AfterLoadGame :p
08:17<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: do prices of cargo change overtime?
08:17<@Rubidium>so you'll get a very low cargo income whereas the buying prices are much higher
08:17<Eddi|zuHause2>and i meant for an initial conversion
08:18<Phazorx>Rubidium: so it does scale with time ?
08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>for the real game, use an unchanged client, and a resaved game
08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>"unchanged" ;)
08:18<@Rubidium>Phazorx: that's the reason why it is stored in the savegame
08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: did the copying work?
08:19<Phazorx>okay how "sane/safe" is it to override CAPR with one from vanilae PBI save?
08:19<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i just founf what to copy
08:19<Phazorx>aside of size actuaky
08:19<Phazorx>and have not tried yet
08:19<Phazorx>4 bytes before and after name are 0000
08:20<Phazorx>i realy wonde about size
08:20<Phazorx>4 bytes after are not 0
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08:21<Eddi|zuHause2>you should be fine, if you do not modify the size of the savegame
08:22<Phazorx>but differen in size vanilla PBI (0140) bad game(0142
08:22<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: err... cant guarantee that
08:22<Phazorx>and from what Maedhros said before this doesnt realy make sense
08:22<Phazorx>actualy nm that i cant count :)
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08:25<Phazorx>and if i can count right this time, file data ends 4 bytes before file does
08:26<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway... did replacing work?Ü
08:26<Phazorx>game loaded :)
08:26<Phazorx>this is too hackish tho
08:27<Eddi|zuHause2>so, is the problem fixed?
08:27<Phazorx>trying to figure that one out
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08:29<Phazorx>thanks Eddi|zuHause2 / Maedhros
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>you are lucky that it's a fixed size array :)
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08:40<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i guess
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08:40<Phazorx>considering how much of a hack this whole project is - very lucky
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08:59<Phazorx>openttd: /home/ottdc/bin/clientsunlimited/src/network/core/packet.cpp:137: void Packet::Send_string(const char*): A
08:59<Phazorx>ssertion `this->size + strlen(data) + 1 <= sizeof(this->buffer)' failed.
08:59<Phazorx>Server has exited
09:00<+glx>that's bad
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09:01<Phazorx>well that's 20 ppl on the samn server
09:01<Phazorx>with 20 still conencting
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09:12<@Rubidium>glx: it's most likely somewhere else
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09:12<@Rubidium>like the place where the client names are send
09:13<@Rubidium>or the company names
09:13<@Rubidium>or something like that
09:13<@Rubidium>@calc 55*80-1460
09:13<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 2940
09:13<+glx>probably, as newgrf stuff should be ok now
09:14<@Rubidium>seems they never tested with long client names
09:14<@Rubidium>@calc 1460/55
09:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 26.5454545455
09:15<@Rubidium>oh... even worse ;)
09:15<+glx>obiwan again?
09:16<@Rubidium>look at PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO
09:16<@Rubidium>that's 38 bytes per player that is connected when all players have "" as name.
09:16<@Rubidium>@calc 55*38
09:16<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 2090
09:16<@Rubidium>and 2090 > 1460
09:16<@Rubidium>or at least in my math
09:18<@Rubidium>but then again, it's their problem not ours cause we've warned them about the fact that it isn't "just" a simple constant change
09:35<Phazorx>glx: we got that one again :(
09:36<+glx>Phazorx: read what Rubidium said
09:36<@Rubidium>Phazorx: as I explained, it much more likely it's something else
09:37<Phazorx>so there is a critical mass of player
09:38<Phazorx>and long nicks are a factor?
09:39<@Rubidium>number of players primarily
09:39<@Rubidium>with a name of "" you can only have
09:39<@Rubidium>@calc 1460/40
09:39<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 36.5
09:40<@Rubidium>something like 35 players
09:40<@Rubidium>note that this is not accurate in any way; I disregarded any number of companies etc.
09:40<@Rubidium>only players with name ""
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09:41<Phazorx>Rubidium: how bad would it be to cut that string rather than assert there?
09:42<@Rubidium>that crashes clients I guess
09:42<@Rubidium>not sure about that though
09:42<Phazorx>if they get "blah blah bla"
09:43<Phazorx>instea of blah blah blah they crash >?
09:43<@Rubidium>and cutting the string only makes it crash one "entry" later
09:44<@Rubidium>in the next string or the next number or the next bool that is send
09:45<Phazorx>so MSS is a limitation becasue we try to fit all into one packet
09:46<Phazorx>and as soon as we exceed 1460 - it borks?
09:46<dihedral>would i be correct in the assumption that this assert occures when sending data about 'all players'?
09:46<Phazorx>Rubidium: Maximum Segment Size
09:46<@Rubidium>dihedral: no, a large enough subset too
09:46<@Rubidium>Phazorx: basically yes
09:47<Phazorx>and data is cumulative and mandatory
09:47<@Rubidium>we don't want to assemble and disassemble UDP packets
09:47<dihedral>it would not be the client info packet, as that sends for each client to each client
09:48<dihedral>it would have to be something that loops over all clients / all players and tries to send all that data in one packet
09:49<dihedral>Rubidium: do you think it could have been a udp or tcp packet?
09:50<dihedral>which one:-P
09:50[~]Rubidium gets crystal ball
09:50<@Rubidium>@calc random
09:50<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: 'random' is not a defined function.
09:50<@Rubidium>with a certainty between 0 and 1 it is tcp
09:50<dihedral>it if was a udp packet we could comment out the assert
09:51<dihedral>as that would only affect the lobby window, and not game play
09:51<@Rubidium>just start uncommenting all assertions
09:51<@Rubidium>they're useless anyway
09:51<@Rubidium>they only assert when you don't need them
09:51<dihedral>Rubidium: it would not harm game play if a udp packet for the lobby window has an issue
09:51<@Rubidium>ah well... if you want to make the server remotely exploitable you should disable the assert
09:52<Phazorx>well i'd suggest cutting the string to appropriate length
09:52<Phazorx>rather than disableing the assert
09:52<dihedral>and if after the Send_string it tries to send some other data?
09:52<@Rubidium>Phazorx: as I said before, that makes it crash also
09:52<dihedral>it will just assert somewhere else
09:53<Phazorx>Rubidium: i dont get how
09:53<dihedral>you dont just send a string
09:53<Phazorx>if currently it exceeds tje buffer and we prevernt that, why would it crash on next one ?
09:53<dihedral>the string is part of a packet holding _more_ data than just the string
09:53<@Rubidium>Send_String(<string of 1500 characters>); Send_String(string of 1 character)
09:53<@Rubidium>first chops to 1460, second asserts because it can't fit the '\0
09:53<@Rubidium>first chops to 1460, second asserts because it can't fit the '\0' in the packet anymore
09:54<Phazorx>Rubidium: why there would be a second ?
09:54<@Rubidium>because you are sending the fracking strings per client/player
09:54<dihedral>it just is...
09:54<Phazorx>by "cut" i mean it never send the other part
09:54<dihedral>and we will not have time to rewrite the network handling of ottd in the next 30 mins
09:54<@Rubidium>Phazorx: just cut *all* strings ;)
09:55<@Rubidium>to size 0 or so
09:55<@Rubidium>solves the assertions
09:55<dihedral>looking forward to my client list ;-D
09:55<Phazorx>Rubidium: it is meant as a hack now
09:55<Phazorx>we just try to get it working
09:56<Phazorx>if dihedral is correct and the reason is pre-game info packet - we dont really care if a player knows whether there are 35 of 25 players
09:56<@Rubidium>Phazorx: if only that packet was used to determine what buttons to show in the pre-game window, like join as spectator and such...
09:57<Phazorx>Rubidium: vut we only let join as specs
09:57<@Rubidium>and not getting the packet (or a part of the packet, which OTTD then discards because it is invalid)
09:57|-|cybermage [] has joined #openttd
09:57<cybermage>hello all
09:57<cybermage>anyone alive ?
09:57<@Rubidium>means that you will not be able to join at all
09:57<@Rubidium>makes the assertion go away at the cost of not being able to join
09:57<cybermage>Is somewhere any howto how to run dedicated server ?
09:58<dihedral>Rubidium: if just letting the packet appear as if no clients were in a company
09:58<cybermage>especially how to configure dedicated server ?
09:58<dihedral>that should be enough
10:00<@Rubidium>anyway... have fun
10:00[~]Rubidium is gone for well... at least today ;)
10:05<cybermage>Can someone help me, how to setup linux server with admin password please ? I am unable to find it on official site. Thank you
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10:11<Maedhros>cybermage: have you seen this page?
10:13<fjb>I'm having a question about nfo actions, again. :-) In which action does the vihicle id hide? I'm too stupid to find it.
10:13<Maedhros>well, it's specified in actions 0 and 3, if you want to change properties and graphics, respectively
10:16<fjb>Some vehicles in two sets seam to use the same ids. Now I will try to change on set.
10:17<fjb>Looks like action3 ids is what i'm looking for.
10:17<dihedral>i found no other packet that tries to squish as much data in one packet than PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO
10:19<cybermage>Maedhros: I did
10:20<Maedhros>what are the problems you're having then?
10:20<cybermage>Problem realizing, when running -D without -f can accept commands
10:24<Maedhros>umm, i don't understand :)
10:25<Maedhros>you can't give the dedicated server commands if you fork it into the background, but you can otherwise
10:25<Maedhros>and as far as i remember, you should only need to enter the rcon password once, and it'll be saved in the config file after that
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10:26<cybermage>does someone have functional config file please?
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause2>cybermage: if you start the game without config, and then exit it normally, it creates a default config file
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10:40<cybermage>Eddi|zuHause2: thanks
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10:56<cybermage>Guys, is it possible to make chat history longer ?
10:57<Eddi|zuHause2>use the console as chatlog
10:57<Eddi|zuHause2>you can log console output into a file
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>or even use autopilot as a IRC bridge to a channel
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11:30|-|mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
11:31|-|[TrueBrain] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3 | World Wide OpenTTD Game Day, join #wwottdgd, and play with 54 other players in one server!
11:31|-|mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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11:33<Sacro>aww :(#
11:35<TrueBrain>@kick Sacro This on the other hand, does work
11:35|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [This on the other hand, does work]
11:35<TrueBrain>too eas
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause2>how about you picking on people who can fight back? :p
11:43<dihedral>it;s running ;-0
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>if i only had the bandwidth...
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11:51<fjb>Patching GRFs is fun. :-) Now I only have to learn how to create a GRF...
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12:07<TrueBrain>microsoft sucks! You _need_ the AAC Media Update if you want to play back a mp4 or a mov, even if the file doesn't contain any AAC data...
12:07<TrueBrain>(for xbox360)
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12:12<fjb>Microsoft free zone here. :-)
12:12<TrueBrain>I only have a XBox
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12:12<TrueBrain>which in fact is rather nice
12:14<dihedral>we reached the sign limit :-D
12:14<TrueBrain>dihedral: no suprise
12:15<dihedral>but funny, nobody thought of that
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12:17<Phazorx>TrueBrain: we reached it like one year into the game
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12:25<kippari>Hello! I'd like some help. Is it possible to get computer players to multiplayer game? And if it is possible, how to enable them?
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12:33<fjb>kippari: Find more real players. :-)
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12:39<kippari>fjb: thanks... =) I and my friend are such newbies, that we would have liked to play the game by ourselves (and with some AIs)
12:39<kippari>But thanks for your information. I won't waste any more time trying
12:41<fjb>kippari: The ai is so stupid, you really don't want it in a game. .-)
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12:41<kippari>fjb: ok
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12:50<fjb>The more you help the people, the unhappier and more demanding they get. :-(
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12:52<fjb>or become...
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12:55<fjb>When you found a new industry, is there a way to know what layout it will have in advance?
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12:56<fjb>Ok, does the layout change randomly?
12:56<+glx>it is randomly chosen on construction
12:58<fjb>Hm, George's tourist centers need different terraforming. I try to build one and it says you can't build there. I do the proper terra forming and do a next try. Now it gives me another layout that complains about wrong terra forming. :-(
12:58<+glx>it works as intended
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12:59<fjb>Ok, at least I didn't do anything wrong. It's kind of a game in the game...
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13:04<bruce89>_Ben_: it would be nice if they just provided a patch
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13:05<_Ben_>meh, good enough for me, this is sweet
13:05<Denver>hellou there
13:06<bruce89>I'm downloding the client anyway
13:10<fjb>Is there a way to see the ids of all vehicles in a game?
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13:14<fjb>Moin skidd13
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13:16<bruce89>_Ben_: interesting
13:16<bruce89>but not as much activity as usual
13:17<_Ben_>just got going
13:19<bruce89>the map's a bit flat and dull though
13:19<bruce89>and inaccurate
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13:28<fjb>Can you bouild canals over bridges?
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13:29<bruce89>I doubt it
13:30<Sacro>fjb: an aquaeduct?
13:31<fjb>Is it possible in TTDP then? Or is that picture a fake?
13:31<fjb>Sacro: Yes, ships going over the a bridge, not under it.
13:34<_Ben_>wouldn't a long viecle have issues when the sprites overlap?
13:35<fjb>_Ben_: It only looks kind of stange...
13:36<_Ben_>where is that image linked from, thats quite cool, I think there the rapid's tiles I made
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13:37<bruce89>_Ben_: still issues with copyrights
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13:39<fjb>I hope we will have rivers in OpenTTD soon. The last comits look promising.
13:40<bruce89>people not allowing it being distributed
13:40<_Ben_>yeah, what are you talking about specifically? Sorry, I'm playing the game at the sec, can't follow
13:41<bruce89>the graphics
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13:58<Luukland>Zou ik je mogen queryen?
13:59<fjb>Was hast Du geschrieben?
14:00<Luukland>Ob ich Der darf queryen :)
14:00<fjb>Please speak english here.
14:01<fjb>Maybe we understand what you are tryieng to say then.
14:02<Luukland>i guess so
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14:12<Sacro>@seen peter1138
14:12<@DorpsGek>Sacro: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 0 days, 3 hours, 21 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <peter1138> _minime_, looks good to me
14:13<Sacro>where is he D:
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16:07<Wolf01>none :D
16:07<Wolf01>uhm, we are only 99
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16:11<bruce89>see the pattern?
16:11<Sionide>/part #openttd
16:12<fjb>Oh :-)
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17:44<skidd13>Is anyone of the devs here who has played with peter's opengl patch?
17:47<@Bjarni>ohh... openGL patch?
17:47<@Bjarni>is it working?
17:48<@Bjarni>this means I haven't played with it ;)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>great, i have a town that does not accept passengers :p
17:48<+glx>no houses in it?
17:49<@Bjarni>newGRF fuckup?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause2>2 houses with 3/8 passengers, one gas station with 1/8 passengers and a water tower with nothing
17:50<@Bjarni>that's less than 8/8... so yes it shouldn't accept passengers
17:50<@Bjarni>the code is working
17:50<+glx>for once ;)
17:50<@Bjarni>now the question is if it's a wanted feature
17:51|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has joined #openttd
17:51<@Bjarni>to have towns you can't increase in size in the normal way
17:52<TrueBrain>skidd13: as it wasn't finished, I only tested the tests :p
17:52<TrueBrain>which works pretty well.. just some things are hard to finish :)
17:52<TrueBrain>skidd13: you get mersanne to work? :)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2>if i understood things correctly, i don't actually have to deliver anything for the town to grow
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2>just service the station
17:53<@Bjarni>but how do you service the station when it accepts nothing? :)
17:53|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit []
17:53<@Bjarni>well... you can bring water, but what if it wasn't a desert town?
17:53|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has joined #openttd
17:53<@Bjarni>water is needed for the town to grow, but is it enough?... actually I can't remember if it can grow without passengers
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, the water tower is just decorative ;)
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17:58<@Bjarni>so the station accepts nothing at all?
17:59<fjb>Hm, do towns not grow even if you don't deliver pessengers? Just let the trains stop there.
18:00<@Bjarni>then you would pick up the few passengers from the town
18:00<@Bjarni>and get a good rating as you should be able to pick up a whole lot of them
18:00|-|Diabolic1Angel changed nick to Diabolic-Angel
18:01<fjb>Yes. As far as I know towns start to grow even if you only pick pessengers up there.
18:03<fjb>Waht is action D1? Or what else is that in the first sprite of the grf?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause2>i got a segmentation fault...
18:07<@Rubidium>action D1?
18:08<@Rubidium>first sprite is number of sprites in the grf
18:08<skidd13>TrueBrain: (Opengl) Do you know wich libs were needed?
18:08<skidd13>(Mersenne) checked FS 1341?
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>and i can't load the autosave
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>it says "inflate() failed"
18:08<TrueBrain>skidd13: -lgl and -lglext
18:09<fjb>Ah, thank you.
18:09<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: then the savegame is apparantly corrupt
18:09<@Bjarni>skidd13: you sound really interested in that patch... do you fancy finishing it or something?
18:09<skidd13>TrueBrain: Hmm I got problems with some missing functions for some of the libs (Debian sid)
18:10<TrueBrain>skidd13: therefor it is a test-patch :)
18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>Rubidium: well, it obviously crashed during the autosave
18:10<skidd13>Bjarni: I'm interested. But never did something with OpenGL :( It looks quite painfull.
18:10<TrueBrain>skidd13: I do remember there was something fishy... so c/p me one error line ;)
18:11<@Bjarni>it's better to admit it than to do what guyver_ did
18:11<@Bjarni>made the game use openGL but in windows only, made the screen upside down and he only got 2 fps on a highend computer
18:11<@Bjarni>and graphical errors
18:12<@Bjarni>he said he would fix it and then we never heard from him again
18:12<TrueBrain>well, without the blitter rewrite, opengl was impossible
18:12<skidd13>TrueBrain: I' cleaned up all the libs and so... But it won't take too long to reinstall them.
18:12<TrueBrain>it now is more possible, still hard
18:13<skidd13>Damned german thoroughness :D
18:13<bruce89>it wouldn't be proper GL surely
18:13<@Bjarni>maybe I should test this patch as well
18:13<@Bjarni>see if I can get it to link correctly on OSX
18:14<skidd13>Bjarni: It's SDL only ATM IIRC
18:16<@Bjarni>then it should work out of the box on OSX. The question is if it will reintroduce the bugs we encountered with SDL on OSX so far
18:16<@Bjarni>like possible crashes when resizing and so on
18:16<@Bjarni>lazy pointer not found crash on exit
18:16<@Bjarni>stuff like that
18:16<@Bjarni>damn annoying stuff :/
18:17<TrueBrain>skidd13: I will test 1341 when I have the time :p
18:18<skidd13>TrueBrain: Not working only concept ;)
18:18<TrueBrain>also fine :p
18:24|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit [Quit: Zr40]
18:32<skidd13>TrueBrain: Error messages ->
18:32<TrueBrain>that is just weird
18:32<TrueBrain>There is #include <gl.h> in that file? :)
18:33<TrueBrain>I remember having something simular
18:33<TrueBrain>but peter didn't
18:33<TrueBrain>but I can't rmeember what it was :p
18:33<TrueBrain>scope problem? Dunno...
18:33<TrueBrain>check which file has glBegin and stuff
18:33<TrueBrain>and figure out where it goes wrong ;)
18:33<TrueBrain>it really should compile :)
18:34<skidd13>I have some freglut libs bobing up and down in /usr/include/GL
18:35|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has joined #openttd
18:35<bruce89>you have gl.h I assume
18:35<TrueBrain>and glut? :)
18:36<TrueBrain>or what extension did peter use?
18:36<skidd13>glut is replaced by freeglut IIRC
18:36<TrueBrain>that can't be a real problem, as glBegin should really be supported :)
18:37<TrueBrain>I was going to bed.. hmm...
18:37<TrueBrain>yeah, 10 minutes ago :p
18:37<skidd13>The thing that wonders me most is that the compiler complains about mglColor4ub but in the code ther is only glColor4ub
18:37<TrueBrain>night all :)
18:37<TrueBrain>skidd13: so that _might_ be freeglut ;)
18:37<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: you know the night is 1 hour longer, don't you?
18:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it is? Lol! Tnx ;) I forgot :p
18:38|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit []
18:38<TrueBrain>night :)
18:38<@Rubidium>night + 1! ;)
18:38<@Rubidium>skidd13: next night isn't going to be longer
18:39<@Rubidium>still makes the night not 1 hour longer, only next nights ;)
18:40<skidd13>... :-!
18:44<@Rubidium>bruce89: problem is next nights aren't longer...
18:45<bruce89>well, they're not shorter then
18:45<@Rubidium>actually they are
18:45<bruce89>one is
18:45<@Rubidium>this night (from 23:59 till 6:59) will be 8 hours, next one only 7
18:46<bruce89>oh I see
18:46<@Rubidium>but that's applicable for CE(S)T
18:46<@Rubidium>YMMV for different time zones
18:46[~]bruce89 is on BST
18:47<@Rubidium>so it's 4:47 AM now?
18:48<bruce89>British Summer Time
18:48<@Rubidium>oh, not Bangladesh Standard Time... too bad
18:48<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i need to be careful with recording times tonight...
18:49<@Rubidium>I wonder whether those wwottdgd people though about this ;)
18:49<bruce89>a mass quit maybe
18:51<@Rubidium>ah well, you won't be long in BST either ;)
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18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2025.%20Aug%201922.png <- any suggestions on how to properly connect the eastbound route to the planned station?
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18:56<bruce89>back to good old GMT then
18:57<@Rubidium>not WET ;)
18:58<dihedral>if i run ./configure will it detect if i have the required libraries to run graphical, and if not configure for dedicated?
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18:58<dihedral>or if i do not configure with --enable-dedicated will it still be possible to configure for dedicated?
18:58<+glx>dihedral: it defaults to dedicated if no gui lib found
18:59<Ammller>glx: sdl?
18:59<+glx>sdl is a gui lib yes
19:00[~]bruce89 ahems
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19:01<cybermage>Thanks all :)
19:01<cybermage>OpenTTD server is working well
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19:14<Thiniad>i need help with some autoreplacing patch
19:14<Thiniad>anyone willing to help?
19:16<Thiniad>allow_replace_different_railtype_r9712 this i found on ottd forums
19:17<Thiniad>but i cant get it work with nightly build, i tried with torquise and buildottd, neither worked
19:17<+glx>get 9712 revision, patch sources, update
19:17<+glx>resolve conflicts
19:18<+glx>(if any)
19:18<Thiniad>got it all, dont know to resolve conflicts
19:18<+glx>you need to understand c/c++
19:22<@Bjarni>it's a rather old diff
19:22<@Bjarni>odds are that it will have conflicts
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19:23<@Bjarni>also I can't recommend it as we already decided that it doesn't solve the issue in an acceptable way
19:26<Thiniad>heh, i was doing something with torquise merge, all conflicts have been replaced with lines from "mine" and "their" file and later edited those conflits in vs8 but there i find some syntax conflicts which i really dont understand
19:27<@Bjarni>then forget about this patch
19:27<@Bjarni>the rest of us already has forgotten about it
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19:28<Thiniad>and i spent several hours yesterday in somehow solving it
19:28<Thiniad>i actually found a way but it cant load savegame from nightly build XD
19:30<@Bjarni>I know a guy who worked full time on a project. He was suppose to make a machine that could do the same but in a cheaper and more reliable way (a specific one). After half a year the result was: he could prove that it's not physically possible to solve the task based on the theory he worked on
19:31<@Bjarni>and you talk about wasting a few hours :P
19:32<Thiniad>thats a dedicated way of life
19:32<skidd13>good night
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2029.%20Okt%201922.png <- not particularly pretty, but that should do for a while
19:34<Thiniad>nice mine (what cargo is that??)
19:34[~]Bjarni is looking for the "not particularly pretty" part in that screenshot
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2>err... sand
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2>it's in one of the ECS grfs
19:35<Thiniad>first thing came in my mind is giant coalmine
19:36<@Bjarni>that's not a coalmine
19:36<@Bjarni>do you even know what a coalmine looks like?
19:36<@Bjarni>it's way darker
19:36<@Bjarni>black coaldust everywhere
19:36<Thiniad>but it has a spiral
19:37<@Bjarni>they make that to be able to get all the way down with vehicles
19:37<@Bjarni>they need to be able to do that nomatter what they dig up
19:37<bruce89>iron ore I think
19:38<@Bjarni>it's not like they can just yell down the hole and then the sand will jump up on it's own
19:38|-|Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:38<@Bjarni>well... it could be iron
19:38<@Bjarni>but not coal :p
19:38<+glx>sand pit
19:38<bruce89>it looks a bit like the present ore mine
19:39[~]Ouranogrammi is a traditional tt player (from the 386 era) and found querry's graphics quite impressive
19:39<Thiniad>this is a real coal mine
19:39<@Bjarni>now that I think about it... sand has a nasty habit of shifting, making so vertical walls pretty unsafe
19:39<Ouranogrammi>it was so clever to be able to make them in sloped ground so they look like they are real!
19:39[~]glx likes the foundations under the sand pit :)
19:40<@Bjarni>Thiniad: notice how the ground is darkened by coal
19:41<@Bjarni>it's not as bright as in the screenshot
19:41<Ouranogrammi>is there any patch that makes the player able to raise the current square more
19:41<Ouranogrammi>like support on slopped ground?
19:41<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: send more trains in your passenger station
19:41<Eddi|zuHause2>glx: i occasionally get that one empt
19:42<Thiniad>well life's cruel, but it would be nice if there was a coal mine graphic like that one in pic
19:42<+glx>Thiniad: just do it :)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause2>the ECS stuff lacks consistency in the graphics
19:43<Thiniad>is that hard to do, creating grf?
19:43<@Bjarni><Thiniad> well life's cruel <-- since they can dig up coal so close to the surface I take that the ground wasn't white before they began
19:44<@Bjarni>* Ouranogrammi is a traditional tt player (from the 386 era) and found querry's graphics quite impressive <--- well... I like the red light at the end of the trains meaning will declare a single pixel graphical change as a nice feature
19:47<dihedral>my computer cannot handle wwottdgd anymore :-P
19:47<@Bjarni>how is it going?
19:48<@Bjarni>you filled up the game with clients and then your computer is too slow to handle it?
19:48<bruce89>67% CPU here
19:49<dihedral>the clients is not the problem
19:49<dihedral>it's the size of map and what is inside
19:49<+glx>what size?
19:50<+glx>that's good for SP games
19:50|-|bluebear [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:50<+glx>or the server must be slower than all clients
19:51<bruce89>the clients surely shouldn't use so much CPU time though
19:51<Ouranogrammi>Bjarni querrys are one of those things that u see and think "damn it is so plain and pretty, how come I didn't think of it before?"
19:52<+glx>bruce89: clients and server does exactly the same things
19:53<+glx>Ouranogrammi: it's quarry :)
19:53<bruce89>I suppose the thing can't process that many clients theb
19:53[~]Ouranogrammi has reached the translation page but doesn't know where to ask for an account :)
19:53<Ouranogrammi>glx at least it doesn't seem all greek to u because greek is my native
19:54[~]Ouranogrammi reaches for his spiked club and hits the channel with it until it rumbles
19:54<Ouranogrammi>*boom* i wanna make a greek translation! *boom*
19:57<+glx>well there use to be a link for wannabe translators
19:57<Thiniad>is there any good guide to creating new grfs?
19:58<Ouranogrammi>glx are you refering to ?
19:58<Ouranogrammi>i am always googling and rtfm at the begin
19:58<Ouranogrammi>but now i am stuck :S
19:58<Ouranogrammi>where to ask for a translation account?
19:58<+glx>Ouranogrammi: anyway you can use one of the mailto links of this page :)
19:59<Ouranogrammi>sounds like good idea
20:00<+glx>but change the subject ;)
20:01<+glx>and be patient for the reply
20:01|-|ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
20:02<+glx>you'll have a lot of work to update greek language :)
20:02[~]Ouranogrammi had an astral projection and saw transport tycoon
20:02<Ouranogrammi>really :>
20:03|-|RamboRonny [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:05<+glx>@openttd commit 9286
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: Commit by miham :: r9286 /trunk/src/lang (20 files in 2 dirs) (2007-03-18 19:00:27 UTC)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-03-18 19:56:07
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: american - 10 fixed by WhiteRabbit (10)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: brazilian_portuguese - 7 fixed by fukumori (7)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: bulgarian - 12 fixed by thetitan (12)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: czech - 8 fixed by Hadez (8)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: dutch - 8 fixed by habell (8)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: french - 3 fixed by glx (3)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: greek - 80 fixed by thanoulas (80)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: italian - 7 fixed, 7 changed by sidew (6), bluesboy84 (8)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: japanese - 11 fixed by PouncingAnt (2), ickoonite (9)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: korean - 3 fixed by darkttd (3)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: norwegian_nynorsk - 6 fixed by pollux (6)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: polish - 7 fixed by meush (7)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: russian - 9 fixed, 1 changed by DarkFenX (10)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: slovak - 10 fixed by lengyel (10)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: slovenian - 6 fixed by Necrolyte (6)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: spanish - 9 fixed by eusebio (9)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: swedish - 9 fixed by daishan (9)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: traditional_chinese - 6 fixed, 4 changed by thomasau (10)
20:05<@DorpsGek>glx: ukrainian - 9 fixed by mad (9)
20:05<+glx>latest greek update
20:06<Ouranogrammi>i asked to start a greek translation some yrs ago
20:06<Ouranogrammi>but utf8 wasn't supported back then
20:07<Ouranogrammi>i have to catch up with thanoulas
20:10<Eddi|zuHause2>what happened to "(10 lines omitted)"?
20:10<+glx>not when doing @openttd
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20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>someone remind me next time to start in 1925
20:14<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: next time start in 1925 :)
20:15|-|Osai [] has quit [Quit: Osai]
20:15|-|XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: May the ducttape be with you]
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>hmzz... normal rail should be half the width of a station
20:17|-|Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:19<Thiniad>where can i get GRFmaker
20:20<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Why 1925?
20:21<Eddi|zuHause2>because there are no useful engines in 1920
20:21<+glx>to not miss steam era
20:21<Eddi|zuHause2>but i do hope that gets fixed in dbset 0.9
20:22<fjb>Hm, the first engines are usefull, at least they are affordable.
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20:30<@Bjarni>I found a bug. I can't type ö in the game
20:30<@Bjarni>I mean the character is there, but when I press they key combo all I get is o
20:31<@Bjarni>I wonder how we survived this long without it... what a major bug :P
20:31<+glx>works for me
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>this was even worse in the original game, äöü were treated as some kind of command characters, you could not input them at all
20:35<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, it works for me, too
20:35<Eddi|zuHause2>must be an OSX issue
20:35<@Bjarni>or an issue with a Danish keyboard
20:35<+glx>I can try that
20:36<@Bjarni>when I noticed in the game a bunch of other people started writing this damn char
20:36<@Bjarni>and only that char
20:37<+glx>now the question is how to type it on a french keyboard using danish layout :)
20:38<Eddi|zuHause2>on the german layout, ö is next to l
20:39<+glx>on french layout it's ¨ followed by o
20:39<@Bjarni>it's the same on a Danish keyboard
20:39|-|Ouranogrammi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have a ¨ key
20:39<+glx>where is ¨ on danish?
20:40<@Bjarni>¨ is right of å on a mac keyboard
20:40<@Bjarni>å is right of p
20:41<+glx>found it
20:41<@Bjarni>so does it work ingame?
20:41<+glx>using danish layout ;)
20:42<+glx>works in game
20:42<@Bjarni>then it's a cocoa driver issue :(
20:42<+glx>just one more OSX bug :)
20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>it might be an utf-8 issue
20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>because ö has two possible unicode representation
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20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>once as "ö" and once as "o¨"
20:44<Eddi|zuHause2>OSX might send the second version, and somewher on the way it just discards the ¨
20:45<+glx>hmm console key is ½ when typing in my irc client but it's oe in openttd
20:46|-|MarkSlap [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i am in serious need of PBS... especially in the mountains
20:49<bruce89>a half key?
20:49<+glx>danish layout
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20:51<@Bjarni>I don't have a half key
20:51<@Bjarni>I do have the  key though
20:52<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: You have the source. Implement PBS and be our hero. :-)
20:52<@Bjarni>implement it in a working state
20:52<Eddi|zuHause2>½ is AltGr+5 here
20:52<@Bjarni>not just reimplement the buggy design we used to have
20:53<bruce89>½ and here
20:54<@Bjarni>I have the  key
20:54<@Bjarni>you can't beat that :P
20:54<fjb>In a way where you don't need that stupid signals at the end of the switches.
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20:57<@Bjarni>while we are at it you can figure out a way so we can get trains that will not stop instantly
20:58<@Bjarni>I expect you to be done by tomorrow morning
20:58|-|Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:58<bruce89>nearly there
20:59|-|ThePizzaKing [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:01<fjb>Why do trains stop instantly? I was told trains in TTD are not able to brake. :-)
21:02|-|ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
21:02<fjb>Free pizza for everyone?
21:03<bruce89>free hours for everyone
21:03<fjb>Yeah. :-)
21:04<+glx>time to set clocks
21:04<ThePizzaKing>What, not for everyone, you got our extra hour
21:05<bruce89>set clocks?
21:05<+glx>CEST became CET
21:06<fjb>No need to set clocks: ntp :-)
21:06<bruce89>I know, I started it
21:06<bruce89>ntp and tzdata for me
21:07<+glx>tell it to my phone, and my vcr
21:07<fjb>Hm, how about DCF77? :-9
21:07<bruce89>even my N800 switched
21:08<bruce89>ThePizzaKing: when did your hour get lost?
21:09<+glx>mine is just an alcatel OT511
21:09<ThePizzaKing>I woke up at 9:30, then I suddenly realised it was really 10:30 now
21:09<bruce89>not just there obviously
21:10<fjb>My handy switched, and it uses Windows... :-)
21:10<+glx>my PC did it by itself too (XP powered)
21:10<fjb>My phone. Sorry
21:10<bruce89>intlclock broke though
21:11<bruce89>it says 1:59
21:15|-||fjb| [] has joined #openttd
21:17[~]|fjb| hates when his ip number changes.
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21:17<Eddi|zuHause2>ThePizzaKing: it's so funny, because i have an additional hour
21:18<bruce89>southern hemisphere lose an hour, we win one
21:20<Thiniad>whats more practical now? doing 32bpp graphic (since we can use that now in ottd) or 8bpp (since its simpler and faster and some like classic graphic lol)?
21:21<bruce89>surely both
21:21<+glx>newgrf use 8bpp
21:22<+glx>32bpp are just "replacement" sprites
21:22<Thiniad>but for newbie like me is better to start with simple newgrf
21:22|-|fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:24<Thiniad>i found newgrf tutorial on ttdpatch wiki, should i use that?
21:25|-|AntB [~AntB-UK@] has joined #openttd
21:25<Thiniad>i read there about tool grfmaker but i cant find it to download, anyone know where i can get that
21:26<BigBB>Maybe you have a look on:
21:28<BigBB>grfcodec can be downloaded here: simple search in wiki.ttdpatch ...
21:28<Thiniad>i got grfcodec,grfwizard,nfoeditor, something else?
21:29<Thiniad>in what program should i draw sprites?
21:29<BigBB>you need only grfcodec(.exe)
21:29<BigBB>whitch OS have you?
21:30<BigBB>photoshop for example
21:31<BigBB>maybe MSpaint and irvanview to translate the bmp to pcx
21:31<BigBB>but only for simple sprites
21:31|-|Eddi|zuHause3 [] has joined #openttd
21:31<Thiniad>adobe? i have corel graphic suite X3, irfanview im using constantly
21:31<BigBB>or a free version of photoshop: .net paint
21:32<|fjb|>How about ?
21:32|-||fjb| changed nick to fjb
21:33<BigBB>no, it's call :
21:33<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... it's the 2nd 2:30 already...
21:33<Eddi|zuHause3>i should go to bed...
21:34<Thiniad>hmm jdraw looks good
21:34<Thiniad>and simple
21:35<BigBB>I don't know jdraw and it's support for 'moving' sprites
21:35<BigBB> support it
21:35<Tefad>f you are looking for Paint.NET, the best free photo editing software for Windows have they not heard of the GIMP ?
21:36<Tefad>seriously, if you're going to claim to be the best.. shove it.
21:38|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:38<BigBB>the gimp version for windows isn't as good as the version for linux. The linux version is perfekt, but for windows...
21:39<Tefad>so run it from Interix ?
21:41<BigBB>for me, I use in windows and gimp on linux ...
21:43<Thiniad>i've downloaded both jdraw and so i'll experiment a bit
21:44<BigBB>what will you draw?
21:45<Thiniad>whatever pops in my mind, that has a purpose and place in ottd
21:45<bruce89>Interix promotion again, goodness
21:45<Thiniad>i've been thinking about some town structures and vehicles (helicopter for example)
21:47|-|Frostregen [] has quit [Quit: und weg]
21:47[~]fjb ist transportating fish by helicopter. :-)
21:47<BigBB>for town structures it's mspaint enough (for the most sprites)
21:48<BigBB>you need only more if you made (or edit) 'moving' sprites
21:48<Thiniad>got it all, if i miss something ill download, internet is a god
21:48<fjb>I have a city where two bus stops have the same name. Is that usual or something to worry about?
21:48<+glx>two lables?
21:49<BigBB>fjb, have you edit one of these two bus stopes
21:50<fjb>Yes, two labels with the same name.
21:50<fjb>nd they are not close to each other.
21:50<+glx>then one has been set "by hand"
21:50<BigBB>if there is a station name like "north york" possible and you edit one station to this name it is possible that two stations have the same name (one you edit and one generated)
21:51<BigBB>what glx said..
21:51<+glx>easy to check: rename the town
21:51<fjb>Hm, maybe I edited one of the labels. But that was long before I build the second bus stop.
21:52<BigBB>and? Anyway it's possible.
21:53<fjb>If I rename the city both change their name.
21:53<+glx>generated names and hand-made names are not checked for duplicate
21:53<+glx><fjb> If I rename the city both change their name. <-- that's weird, means they both have generated name
21:54<fjb>I should better rename one, I guess. :-9
21:54<+glx>anyway the game doesn't care the name
21:55<+glx>it's just a cosmetic thing for the user
21:55<fjb>One was only a railway station and the bus stop was added later.
21:55<BigBB>maybe to extend the possible station names?
21:56|-|bruce89 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:56<BigBB>I write a patch if you don't want (but find the idea good :) )
21:56<fjb>The city has only 15 stations.
21:57<+glx>well we already have "town #x" IIRC
21:57<fjb>Where is north on the map?
21:57<+glx>fjb: try another language just to see what happens
21:58<BigBB>yes, but only a definednumber of possible stations
21:58<fjb>Oh, they have different names if I change the language.
21:58<BigBB>fjb, in the north?!
21:59<fjb>BigBB: But the map looks like tilted by 45°...
22:00<BigBB>up: north; right: east; down: south; left: west
22:00<BigBB>up-right == north-east and so on
22:01<BigBB>theres an png from oskar, but I don't know the address atm
22:02<BigBB>fjb, I need this specified direction for my shore patch :)
22:02<fjb>Ah, ok, there it is really important.
22:03<fjb>Ups, thw trams just crossed through each other. Lokked dangerous.
22:03<fjb>BigBB: Is that patch relatet to rvers too?
22:04<BigBB>now I make shores ...
22:04<BigBB>then I make canals ...
22:04<BigBB>and then I make the new flooding
22:05<+glx><BigBB> yes, but only a definednumber of possible stations <-- no because you can have an "unlimited" town #x stations
22:05<BigBB>and then (maybe) I make rivers
22:05<fjb>Hm, do GRFs explicitly specify the vehicle ids they are using?
22:05<fjb>BigBB: Please make canals over bridges. :-)
22:06<BigBB>glx, yes, but the game make only a defined number of stations. only if you edit one (or more) stations you can have more
22:07<BigBB>fjb, first get the shore patch into trunk ... but make a new threat whith water problems and I will see :)
22:07<BigBB>fjb, problems AND suggestions
22:08<+glx>24 + 9 buoys + as many #x you want
22:08<BigBB>right, but you must edit one if you want to add a new
22:09<+glx>not needed in trunk
22:09<BigBB>realy? then: sry glx
22:09<+glx>but it's true in 0.5.x
22:09<BigBB>I only play nightlys, I feel sry
22:13<BigBB>Belugas, are you here?
22:13<+glx>on saturday night?
22:14<BigBB>I don't know
22:14<BigBB>we both be on :)
22:14<+glx>he has a familly ;)
22:14<Ammller>how do you know screen? We started a server in screen, it does still run, but the screen now hangs (after half day)
22:15<BigBB>I know, but asking don't cost anything
22:15<+glx>are you sure it's not ssh Ammler?
22:16<Ammller>we "fixed" if with "redisplay"
22:17<BigBB>glx: can I ask you about a patch what I want to make (a gui patch)?
22:17[~]glx doesn't like gui :)
22:17<+glx>and I'm watching anime now
22:18<Thiniad>someone watch anime?!
22:19<BigBB>glx: okay :) which dev can I ask?
22:19<+glx>try tomorrow
22:20<BigBB>the day is not basic, I can wait. I want to know which dev is competent for GOI things ... :D
22:21<+glx>we all know how gui works
22:21|-|Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
22:22<BigBB>that mean, I can ask you (tomorrow or some days else ...)
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22:22<+glx>yes :)
22:23<BigBB>I want to make a signal gui ... and I prefer to know what you want to integrate in it ...
22:23<+glx>well there are already some signal gui patches
22:23<BigBB>I don't want to make a redif of Hackykid's version. I want to make a completely new version.
22:25<+glx>we are not signal gui fans
22:25<BigBB>please, why ?
22:26|-|tiaz_ [] has joined #openttd
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22:26<BigBB>I know, Hackykid's version isn't very good, but signal guis generally ?
22:26<+glx>I don't see the need for a signal gui
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22:28<BigBB>Okay, I prefer a gui to build the signal what you want (normal, pre, ...) directly. the gui can have a look simular to that of TTDp
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22:31<+glx>you'll need to modify commands too
22:32<BigBB>yes, that is why I ask 'you' what you prefferd :)
22:33<+glx>it at least needs to be MP safe
22:35<BigBB>okay, thanks
22:36<Thiniad>consider this in 32bpp futuristic office building :D
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22:55<BigBB>glx, what do you prefer: a gui like ttdp that only appear if you already build a signal or a gui which will be shown befor you build a signal (or anything else).
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23:06<+glx>BigBB: as I said, I'm not very in need for a signal gui
23:06<+glx>better ask potential users what they prefer
23:08|-|TinoM| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:08<BigBB>okay, I start a forum thread ?!
23:08<fjb>The signal gui in ChrisIN usually annoys me.
23:09|-|elmex_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09<BigBB>fjb, yes, the signal gui from Hackykid isn't the best
23:10<BigBB>fjb, sa what you want for a signal gui, please:
23:10[~]glx goes to sleep
23:10<+glx>good night
23:11<Thiniad>is there a screenshot of that signal gui in ttdp
23:11<BigBB>good night
23:11|-|glx [] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:11[~]fjb doesn't need a signal gui.
23:12<fjb>I'm much faster just holding down the ctrl-key ant klicking once again. I have to click more than once at a signal anyway.
23:13<BigBB>ttdp: but without the right both buttons...
23:13<BigBB>only the left ten th
23:18<Thiniad>some of them have two lights, thats something new. in my opinion it would be best to create a new signal menu, like landscape menu, and there put all kinds of signal with tooltip (what each signal does), it would give more reality in game. you might make as a patch so users could have or not a menu
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23:23<BigBB>Thiniad, here's the ttdp original:
23:24<BigBB>Thiniad, do you mean the PBS two lights?
23:25<BigBB>Thiniad, this is why TTDP have PBS signals, OTTD but not.
23:25<Thiniad>so thats PBS signals, whats so special about them?
23:26<BigBB>about the signals: nothing. About PBS: much, but this have nothing to do with a signal gui :)
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23:28<Thiniad>enlighten me please - what is gui?
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23:29<BigBB>a graphical interface whith that you can make an input
23:29<BigBB>a Graphical User Input
23:29<Thiniad>and you want gui in which you could choose between various signals
23:29<BigBB>or short: GUI
23:30<BigBB>yes, right
23:30<Thiniad>do you have PBS in ottd code?
23:30<Thiniad>or you want only regular signals in that gui
23:31<BigBB>The signals now are possible
23:31<Thiniad>but you need gui?
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23:32<BigBB>now you have 8 different signals ...
23:32<BigBB>for the reason that pbs will be intregated you have 16 different signals...
23:33<Thiniad>that it would be difficult and frustrating to change signals through ctrl + click
23:34<BigBB>That is why I preffered a GUI :)
23:35<Thiniad>and to implement signal gui in ottd you need to do what exactly
23:35<BigBB>to know what the community and devs want
23:36<BigBB>I have personally no problem to make a gui, but it must be accepted
23:36<Thiniad>normally although you need to create graphic and commands
23:36<fjb>Make it optional.
23:37<BigBB>Thiniad: and? fjb: of course
23:38<Thiniad>the best option is to make a thread in forum and write down what are advantages of PBS and run voting
23:38<BigBB>Thiniad: I know what I have to do. I ask for: what do you (and the devs) preffered
23:39<Thiniad>me: more signals, making a game a little more difficult and tempting
23:39<BigBB>Thiniad: I want to make a signal gui patch and not a pbs patch...
23:39<BigBB>Thiniad, maybe you read my posts?
23:39<Thiniad>sorry i misunderstood something a lot
23:40<Thiniad>forgive me
23:40<BigBB>np, if I write to difficult: I'm sry
23:40<Thiniad>no, no its no difficult, its just i sometimes get lost in some sentences
23:40<BigBB>(I'm to german :) )
23:41<Thiniad>i didnt write english a long time
23:41<BigBB>welcome in the club :D
23:42<Thiniad>lol, its to be here :)
23:42<Thiniad>nice to be here lol
23:42<Thiniad>eh i wanted to ask you something
23:43<Thiniad>im looking at newgrf graphic replacement project and i spotted some "unclaimed" small project, is that free to anyone for completition
23:44<BigBB>what specially mean you?
23:44<Thiniad>monorail and maglev trails
23:45<Thiniad>im looking on net for some schematics and pictures of those trails thinking i might draw that
23:46<BigBB>iokay, what do you want to know? how you can change the sprites of monorail and maglev?
23:47<BigBB>I can make you a NewGRF, but I am no graphic arthist, so please give me some images
23:47[~]fjb thinks he has to go to bed now.
23:48<BigBB>fjb, good night
23:49<fjb>good night
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23:49<Thiniad>i found real-life images for "template", i would try to draw something then present it on forum, i just wanted know do i need to tell somebody that im working on that?
23:51<Thiniad>okie, i've also found image for a new modern bank
23:51<BigBB>only post if you release your work: where your starting image will be from
23:51<Thiniad>but one thing at a time
23:51<Thiniad>this is maglev
23:51<BigBB>but you must have a look on the license of the image/grf/and so on
23:52<BigBB>for example MB works, he don't allowed editing
23:52<Thiniad>whats MB works
23:52<BigBB>michael bunck
23:54<Thiniad>license is in power only if you directly edit his grf
23:54<BigBB>edit or public it
23:56<Thiniad>well i wont edit any grfs, i'll rather make new grf based on real-life building
23:56<BigBB>what grf's?
23:56<Thiniad>hmm eiffel tower as a city monument lol
23:56<BigBB>no, what grf's you want to edit?
23:57<Thiniad>i want to create new graphic
23:58<BigBB>all grf's in the download of OTTD are opensource so you can edit them. or do you want to replace an image, for that do you need a NewGRF and an action A IIRC
23:58<BigBB>aah, okay. what do you wan to make (new)
23:59<TinoDidriksen>Entirely new building types (e.g. wonders of the world), not merely new graphics for an existing building, as I understand it.
---Logclosed Sun Oct 28 00:00:29 2007