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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-01

---Logopened Thu Nov 01 00:00:11 2007
---Daychanged Thu Nov 01 2007
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00:05<Tefad>where?
00:05<Tefad>nfc.
00:05<Tefad>maybe they meant routes
00:06<Tefad>or paths, whatever
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00:34<MVXA>hi, me again..
00:35<MVXA>I found the article about trams in the wiki. I checked out the source from svn and compiled the stuff, loaded the grf and installed all but I can't use trams :(
00:35<MVXA>menuitem is still grey
00:36<Phazorx>MVXA: year?
00:36<MVXA>2020
00:37<Phazorx>Tefad: all verctors combined give you about 17 chains, 32 cargos and 35-27 industries
00:38<Phazorx>MVXA: perhaps all engines from the set you included expired already?
00:38<MVXA>huh
00:39<Tefad>Phazorx: are some not supported in ottd or something?
00:39<MVXA>changed year to 1990 and the menuitem is still grey =(
00:39<Phazorx>which tramset you have and is patch option for presistent engines off ?
00:39<Tefad>i'm getting a paper mill that's making food...
00:39<Phazorx>Tefad: you have to use vectors in correct order
00:39<MVXA>mhhh
00:39<MVXA>ah
00:39<Phazorx>Tefad: most likely you have wrong order then
00:39<MVXA>I think I know whats wrong
00:40<Tefad>i've got 7 ECS GRFs in what appears to be proper sequence
00:41<Tefad>town basic chem mach wood con agr
00:41<Phazorx>Tefad: proper is GRFID order
00:41<Tefad>they are
00:41<MVXA>uh
00:41<MVXA>have it ._.
00:41<Tefad>what is it
00:41<MVXA>I had only the ways but no trains xD
00:43<MVXA>mhhh
00:43<MVXA>i like trams =D!
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00:44<MVXA>hum
00:44<Tefad>ah ha.
00:44<MVXA>it seems that I can't build stations on the street owned by the city...
00:44<MVXA>bad ._.
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00:47<Phazorx>check patch options
00:48<MVXA>ah
00:48<MVXA>wheee =D
00:48<MVXA>incredible, thank you
00:49<MVXA>bye =D
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00:51<Tefad>pk industies compatible with ECS?
00:52<Tefad>perhaps redundant?
00:53[~]Tefad shrugs
00:53<Phazorx>pbi ?
00:53<Tefad>yeah
00:53<Phazorx>either or
00:53<Tefad>thought so
00:53<Phazorx>cant use both, especialy due to ECS using all cargo types
00:54<Tefad>ah ok
00:54<Phazorx>can use std+nc, pbi, pbi+bc or ecs
00:54<Tefad>bc?
00:55<Phazorx>brick chain
00:55<Tefad>ah
00:55<Tefad>ecs is a bit nutty
00:55<Tefad>i like nutty.
00:55<Phazorx>it quite unbalanced
00:55<Tefad>oh?
00:56<Phazorx>some carogs are plenty some never enough
00:56<Tefad>sand is crazy
00:56<Phazorx>also vehicles part isnt working
00:56<Tefad>or was the last time i played
00:56<Tefad>i can use lv4 yes?
00:56<Phazorx>neither in ttdp or ottd
00:56<Phazorx>lv4 was always compatibe
00:57<Phazorx>i mean vehicles made in machinery vector dont have effect as supposed to on many primaries that require them
00:57<Tefad>what are they supposed to do? increase output?
00:58<Tefad>nabs conflict with ttrs?
00:58<Phazorx>nabs?
00:58<Tefad>north american building set
00:58<Phazorx>Tefad: according to spec they are consumed for increased production
00:59<Phazorx>Tefad: dont recall how nabs deal with newhouses but probably similar to ttrs so they override each other
00:59<Phazorx>and should nto be used at same time
00:59<Phazorx>same as train sets
00:59<Tefad>ok.
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02:34<Tefad>openttd: /home/tefad/src/ottd/src/slope.h:347: Foundation FlatteningFoundation(Slope): Assertion `!IsSteepSlope(s)' failed. O_o
02:57<@Rubidium>poor Tefad... but you should know what to do about it
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03:15<mikk36|work>hey :)
03:15<mikk36|work>check this out: http://pildid.mikk36.eu/v/sodi/DSC00563.JPG.html
03:15<mikk36|work>:D
03:15<mikk36|work>coworker just got 3 of such from his dad :P
03:17<peterbrett>mikk36|work: Oh, that's lovely.
03:17<mikk36|work>3 next pictures are about that one too
03:18<mikk36|work>lol
03:18<mikk36|work>the taste is to be very weird
03:19<mikk36|work>doesn't exactly make you puke but still enough odd
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04:04<Gekz>that's just wtfd
04:04<Gekz>that's meant to be what, a grapefruit?
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04:10<dihedral>??
04:10<Gekz>http://pildid.mikk36.eu/v/sodi/DSC00563.JPG.html
04:12<dihedral>those pips dont look like normal orange or grapefruit pips...
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04:30<Sacro>gooood morning
04:31<dihedral>morning
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05:55<Wolf01>hello
05:55<dihedral>hi
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06:01<mcbane>hi
06:01<mcbane>hmm
06:02<mcbane>tourist center works even tho its shown wrong in the station accept/rating
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06:40<Ailure>bah
06:41<Wolf01>agreed
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06:47<mcbane>when it sais accept tourists it accept all other needed cargo also
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07:12<Jumpingmanjim>hey guys
07:12|-|Gonozal_VIII [~Gonozal_V@N776P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd
07:12<Jumpingmanjim>yoohoo
07:13<Jumpingmanjim>anyone home?
07:13<Gonozal_VIII>O_o a train on a bridge just got flooded
07:15<Jumpingmanjim>anyone still interested in getting all the graphics replaced?
07:15<LeviathNL>CrisIN?
07:15<Jumpingmanjim>so openttd can be free?
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07:17<Gonozal_VIII>yes chrisin
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07:18<fjb>Moin
07:18<LeviathNL>hi
07:18<Gonozal_VIII>raised sea floor problem?
07:18<fjb>!logs
07:18<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
07:18<Jumpingmanjim>anyone?
07:20<TrueBrain>Jumpingmanjim: check the forums, Graphics subforum
07:20<Jumpingmanjim>yeah i noticed
07:20<Jumpingmanjim>its dead
07:21<Jumpingmanjim>what happened?
07:21<Jumpingmanjim>did people just give up on the idea
07:21<Jumpingmanjim>?
07:21<LeviathNL>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSTVTCJapanCastle Why'd George want that positioning conditions, now it is very rare to be seen ingame.
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07:25<Gonozal_VIII>why is chrisin 11355 a newer version than the nightly 11364?
07:25<TrueBrain>people always demand an answer within a very short timespan... oh well, too bad
07:26<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: it isn't
07:26<Gonozal_VIII>it says so when i try to load a game
07:27<TrueBrain>ah, the savegame versions are, tha tis possible, yes
07:27<fjb>LeviathNL: George likes to make things complicated. At least that is Michaels theory.
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07:29<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: ChrisIN has more features than trunk. So trunk could not load a ChrisIN save. That's why Chris sets the verion number of the save much higher than any version trunk.
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07:31<Gonozal_VIII>ok thanks
07:33<Gonozal_VIII>we started the game in trunk somewere around 111xx then moved on to the chrisin version before the new one and now there's the flooding thing
07:35<Gonozal_VIII>does anyone know if that also happens in new games?
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07:37<Gonozal_VIII>yes..
07:41<Gonozal_VIII>happens with all, sea level is 0, raised sea floor and raised sea level
07:43<Gonozal_VIII>not in trunk :-)
07:45<fjb>Trunk doesn't have that raised sea level feature.
07:46<Gonozal_VIII>i know but it happens with all sea level settings so i thought that wouldn't be the problem
07:47<Gonozal_VIII>chrisin with all grfs disabled... flooded kirby
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07:53<Gonozal_VIII>btw what is hs.dat?
07:54<Wolf01>highscore maybe
07:54<Gonozal_VIII>aah
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08:47|-|mode/#openttd [+v _42_] by Belugas
08:47|-|mode/#openttd [+nt] by ChanServ
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08:59<@Belugas>!seen frosch123
08:59<+_42_>Belugas, frosch123 (~mtce@kolmogoroff.math.tu-clausthal.de) was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 1 day 20 hours 10 minutes ago (30.10. 16:48) stating "Remote host closed the connection" after spending 2 hours 21 minutes there.
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09:01<Wolf01>hello Belugas
09:02<@Belugas>hello Wolf01
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09:05<Sacro>rawr
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09:10<Ammler>Heya, is it somehow possible to prevent industries from "selfappearing"?
09:10<Ammler>or would that need a new patch?
09:11<@Belugas>no patch exist for that. you would have to do it yourself
09:11<@Belugas>note that it is pretty easy to do, tough....
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09:11<Ammler>thought so...
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09:11<Ammler>something like the notree patch :)
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09:12<@Belugas>even simpler...
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09:13<@Belugas>induistry_cmd.cpp:1993(maybe), function IndustryMonthlyLoop
09:13<Ammler>I had successful placed ECS castle newschwanstein and tourist resort, but not able to place this GoodrichCastle (http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSTVTCGoodrichCastle)
09:13<Gonozal_VIII>there is a very simple notree patch? why is that not in trunk? would be nice to reduce game size for multiplayer sometimes
09:14<@Belugas>remove 3 lines, starting by "if (CHANCE16(3, 100)) {"
09:14<Ammler>it always tell that there is another industrie in the near,, but I "cheated" eveything away
09:14<@Belugas>and remove last "}" from the blick, of course
09:15<Ammler>wouldn't that be worth for a switch?
09:15<Ammler>(in the cfg, I meant)
09:16<@Belugas>no, it will not be made into trunk either
09:17<Gonozal_VIII>why?
09:17<Ammler>would that need so much resources?
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09:20<@Belugas>simply put, we will not change the production model
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09:21<@Belugas>and invasion of switches have to be controled
09:21<Ammler>yeah, I know. :)
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09:26<Ammler>multiple_industry_per_town <-- converting to int?
09:27<Ammler>0=only 1, 1=multiple, 2=none
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09:28<Wolf01>why "none"?
09:28<Ammler>if you like to play a scenario
09:28<Ammler>sometimes industries appear in wrong places
09:29<Ammler>no problem in SP, you can cheat it away, but on MP, its more work
09:30<Ammler>it could happen that a Powerstation appear near a Steel mill and does steal the coal from it
09:30<Ammler>(in PBI)
09:30<Ammler>so you have to move the whole station or even to cheat...
09:31<Wolf01>but multiple industries mean multiple industries of the same type
09:31<Gonozal_VIII>0 of each type means none at all
09:31<Ammler>hmm, bad switch
09:32<Ammler>just looked for an existing one
09:32<Wolf01>add another switch to enable disable the random funding of industries during game
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09:33<Gonozal_VIII>that's what he wanted
09:33<Ammler>devs don't like switches, some patches don't get to trunk, just because of that
09:33<mikk36|work>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Industries <-- a bit obscure data there ?
09:33<Gonozal_VIII>i like switches, the more options the better
09:34<TrueBrain>Ammler: don't tell lies, it is bad
09:34<Ammler>its very hard to manage them all
09:34<Wolf01>or use the ECS, where after 50 years all disappear but sand pits, potash mines and vehicle factories... totally useless
09:34<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, maybe for you, but not for us. if the code get so complicated and circumvoluted, it gets to a point where it's not fun anymore to code
09:34<Gonozal_VIII>maybe add a switch that switches those switches on/off (advanced configuration or something)
09:35<Gonozal_VIII>ah codewise...
09:35<Ammler>you have still the switches then...
09:35<@Belugas>and Ammler, some patches get into trunk with switches, when the patch is usefull. but most of tghe patches are quite boring ones,
09:35<@Belugas>with very little interest,
09:35<BigBB>you have an advanced configuration already, you can change more option in the openttd.cfg than in the gui ;)
09:35<@Belugas>only for the guy who wrote it
09:36<Ammler>yeah, I know that also do understand that...
09:37<Wolf01>BigBB, almost all what you can change in the .cfg you can change in the gui, except for pathfinding and network section, all the patches are customisable in game
09:37<TrueBrain>Wolf01: drivers aren't ;)
09:38<BigBB>almost, but not all :)
09:38<Ammler>Maybe something like that would help to know which are more insterested which less: http://gallery.menalto.com/sfvote ?
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09:39<BigBB>Wolf01, all penalitys can only changed in the cfg-file (like road_stop_penalty)
09:39<TrueBrain>BigBB: he said: except pathfinding :)
09:39<Gonozal_VIII>if it's just a matter of disabling 3 lines of code, a switch would only require a boolean and an if around those lines
09:39<BigBB>uh, my fault :)
09:40<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, nobody stops you to write your own patch and use it on your own version
09:41[~]Belugas is gone on customer's site for a while
09:41<TrueBrain>good luck Belugas! :)
09:42<Wolf01>but a switch in the patches or difficulty gui might be usefull, like "vehicles prefer: [avoid stations|drive thru stations|don't bother]"
09:43<Gonozal_VIII>isn't that what station penalty does?
09:43<Wolf01>yes
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10:09<Ammler>hmm, maybe I have the switch...
10:09<Ammler>In difficult settings you can switch off industries
10:09<Ammler>is there a reason to have them later to appear?
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10:12<Gonozal_VIII>you have a point there
10:13<Ammler>problem for diff settings is, they aren't changeable on a running game anymore, well over the scenario editor
10:15<Phazorx>arent changeable?
10:15<Gonozal_VIII>not all
10:15<Gonozal_VIII>no of industries is not
10:16<Phazorx>it has no affect on anything aside of generator
10:16<Phazorx>there is not much point to change it
10:16<Gonozal_VIII>it would have if it changes the generation of new industries in the running game
10:17<Phazorx>last time i checked randomization of that wasnt based on any params
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>ammler suggestet that
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10:18<Gonozal_VIII>9 minutes ago...
10:18<Ammler>Phazorx: can you read back?
10:19<Phazorx>i just reconnected i might not have it
10:19<Ammler>I queried you why I like to change that
10:20<Gonozal_VIII>would be better than setting the number of same industries per town to 0 because you could still place them manually
10:25<LeviathNL>Would be nice to a preview of the the industry when placing them, especially because with grfs like ECSvectors it has become much harder.
10:27<Gonozal_VIII>and a better way to find a suitable place... ever tried to place a brewery?
10:29<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: brewery is easy, try to place the tourist centers
10:29<LeviathNL>Ever tried to place a Tourist Centre?
10:29<Ammler>:)
10:30<Ammler>I am trying to place GoodrichCastle (http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSTVTCGoodrichCastle), not able too
10:30<Ammler>(NeuSchwanenstein and Tourist Resort worked well.)
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10:31<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't even know they existed... i only ever see the standard 2*2 tile thing
10:32<Gonozal_VIII>2*3
10:32<Ammler>I guess, they won't appear with the map generater
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10:34<LeviathNL>I once had the Casino resort
10:34<Omnituens>can someone help me, im either doing something wrong, or theres a bug. anyone?
10:34<LeviathNL>whats the problem?
10:35<Omnituens>i was trying to upgrade all my trains to electric
10:35<Omnituens>now i can do that fine
10:36<Omnituens>BUT i cant upgrade from the basic electric automatically
10:36<Omnituens>the others just dont appear on the replace list
10:36<Omnituens>and its saying i have 65000 steam trains.
10:37<Gonozal_VIII>try save and load
10:37<LeviathNL>how do yuo mean you can't upgrade from the basic electric automatically
10:38<Omnituens>with the manage train list
10:38<Omnituens>replace <train> with <shiner train>
10:39<Gonozal_VIII>i had the overflow thing once i think loading the game fixed that... as for electric there is a switch in the bottom middle where you can select rail vehicles or electrified
10:40<Omnituens>is there? must have missed that
10:40<Omnituens>i was thinking "im not the only person who has this bug, i must be missing something"
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10:43<Omnituens>ok, and im getting 2 ini errors on startup, anyway to fix?
10:43<Omnituens>something about trailing characters
10:43<Gonozal_VIII>remove the trailing characters
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10:44<Ammler>Omnituens: loading indicator and advanced vehicle gui?
10:45<frosch123>pong Belugas
10:45<Omnituens>i think so yes
10:45<Ammler>just remove them from your cfg or change it in your patch settings window and exit
10:45<Omnituens>ta
10:46<Gonozal_VIII>sledgehammer method would be to remove the whole cfg file, the game will create a new one then
10:47<Ammler>(they had changed from bool to int, thats why they give out error)
10:47<Omnituens>hmmmm still not getting the replace trains thing to work
10:47<Gonozal_VIII>wow plane crash on the start screen
10:48<Omnituens>i can select the current one i have, but everything above the SH'30'(Electric) is not there
10:48<Omnituens>when i say "above" i mean is developed after
10:48<Gonozal_VIII>ah on the left?
10:48<Omnituens>or the right
10:48<Omnituens>my TIMs are not there either
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10:49<Gonozal_VIII>on the left are only the vehicles you have... or had in grey
10:49<fjb>!logs
10:49<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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10:50<Omnituens>oh wait i loaded the wrong save game. do'h
10:50<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
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10:54<Omnituens>yes, i just speeded up the save game
10:54<Omnituens>i can upgrade the trains now, thanks guys
11:03<Gonozal_VIII>btw you should try a trainset grf, those are much more fun than the standard trains :-)
11:03<Omnituens>well we are just starting to get into it
11:04<Omnituens>we usually play it at lans. we only tweak the setting a bit, but we disable planes right off.
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11:05<Gonozal_VIII>yes... they are not very balanced
11:07<Omnituens>also, they it used to show all the positive income from last year in green, but it doesnt now
11:07<Omnituens>like on the list of trains
11:09<Gonozal_VIII>there are green circles below the vehicle number
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11:11<Omnituens>yeah... but i liked the numbers too :P
11:11<Gonozal_VIII>negative is still red
11:11<Omnituens>yeah
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11:12<Omnituens>just looking though the options now
11:12<Omnituens>Manual primary industry construction method - prospecting? sounds like fun.
11:13<Gonozal_VIII>places them random but also has a good chance to fail
11:14<Omnituens>awww, i thought that the player might have to actually put some effort into locating mines and such
11:16<Gonozal_VIII>you have to with some types of tourist centers in ecs
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11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11368 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-11-01 16:56:10
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 9 fixed, 1 changed by TrueTenacity (10)
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by fukumori (1)
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 fixed by knovak (1)
11:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
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12:19<Teknikarna|Mell>!password
12:21<Phazorx>TrueBrain: the heightmaps you made, are they based on forum method?
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12:32<MiHaMiX>Phazorx: afaik no
12:32<Phazorx>MiHaMiX: is there a better/easier way ?
12:32<Phazorx>i'm fighting with microdem and i'm not liking it
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12:32<MiHaMiX>Phazorx: yes, but it's under dev
12:32<+glx>he uses a homemade tool
12:33<Phazorx>MiHaMiX: ottd is under dev too :)
12:33<MiHaMiX>Phazorx: yes, but it's different
12:34<MiHaMiX>Phazorx: ottd is playable and somewhat user friendly, while that tool is command line only atm
12:34<Phazorx>i dont have issues with cli tools
12:35<Phazorx>considerign that instead of suing goole earth i have perl script running with wget to get the map parts :)
12:35<MiHaMiX>Phazorx: no prob, but as far as TrueBrain doesn't release that tool, the tool is not available for anyone except for the devs
12:35<Phazorx>well i'll wait for TB then
12:36<MiHaMiX>ok ;)
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12:42<skidd13>Hi
12:51<LeviathNL>hi, how is the mersenne twister configuration patch going?
13:03<TrueBrain>Phazorx: it has bugs which I couldn't resolve back then, so the project is put on halt
13:03<Phazorx>TrueBrain: alternatives?
13:03<TrueBrain>nope
13:03<Phazorx>sad
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13:04<TrueBrain>to give a more descriptive reply on the 'bug' part: it could generate one country just fine, most of the time anyway. It only failed when trying to do bigger things, like Europe
13:04<Phazorx>and since i want really big there will be issues
13:04<Phazorx>microdem doesnt work ehre
13:04<Phazorx>apparently it has bugs too
13:05<TrueBrain>correcting for the earth rounding is pretty though :)
13:05<TrueBrain>that is, in a fast way ;)
13:05<Phazorx>it's a math problem, not simple one but purely mathematical
13:06<Phazorx>i take it your tool is capable of performing image manipulations
13:07<LeviathNL>skidd13, is there an easy way to try the mersenne twister? Defining it in functions.h gives me compile-errors
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13:08<skidd13>LeviathNL: edit the CFLAGS in the makefile (append -DMERSENNE_TWISTER or something like that)
13:08<skidd13>TrueBrain: checked my current work on the patch?
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13:08<TrueBrain>nope
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13:08<huma>tb!
13:09<skidd13>I'm thinking over a nice solution for the savegame stuff cause my current solution is too dynamic for the static savegame stuff. :D
13:09<huma>how's your pyttd? :)
13:09<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i can suggest an aproach to make the map nicer in some ways but less realistic however, meaning none linear scaling
13:10<TrueBrain>huma: flying busses all over the place :)
13:10<huma>url?
13:10<TrueBrain>I have a bandwidth issue, it is hard to move a bus every 30ms, as the client is slower in the communication
13:10<TrueBrain>so it needs client-side logic, which is hard, as you have acceleration and shit
13:10<huma>eh
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13:11<huma>guess we'll have to wait till web 3.0 :)
13:11<TrueBrain>this problem is much more general
13:12<TrueBrain>even if I would make a custom client
13:12<TrueBrain>it would have this problem
13:12<TrueBrain>as it is impossible to feed a client every 30ms with position of all objects
13:12<TrueBrain>it is normal that the client does logic
13:12<TrueBrain>just TTD logic is too advanced to do :)
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13:15<skidd13>Can someone of the dev's check FS1199? Thanks
13:15<skidd13>:%s /'//g
13:17<TrueBrain>+ * @author Magicbuzz, Skidd13 <- OpenTTD is GPL, all code and patches sent in are owned by OpenTTD Developer Team
13:17<TrueBrain>we can not accept any patch which claims to have any other author but OpenTTD Developer Team
13:17<TrueBrain>so, sadly enough, we have to reject the patch, or you have to give permission to remove that line.
13:18<TrueBrain>(just imagine what will happen if every person would set the @author on every function in the code... omg... :s)
13:18<skidd13>TrueBrain: I thought it claims the responsibility :) AKA who to blame if there are problems ;)
13:18<TrueBrain>we have 'svn blame' for that
13:18<+glx>and svn log to know the patch author
13:18<TrueBrain>besides, those people are never found back when there really is a problem :) They tend to disapear!
13:19<TrueBrain>"The speec value" <- nice typo :)
13:19<skidd13>Ooops
13:19<TrueBrain>also, in that same function, one enter too many (after if () {)
13:19<TrueBrain>and double 'from'
13:19<TrueBrain>and why is 'from the internals' on an other line? :)
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13:20<Ammler>hmm, I played a little bit with placing industries, how do I place a Bank?
13:21<skidd13>TrueBrain: Anything else?
13:21<Ammler>i tried to place it in town with 2300 habitants, but still the msg appears that I need 1200
13:21<TrueBrain>skidd13: not at first glance
13:21<skidd13>Ok, things are fixed.
13:21<+glx>Ammler: on a house?
13:22<Ammler>I removed 2 tiles and bought the land
13:22<+glx>banks must be built over house
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>i just tried placing a bank in a 2500 town, no problem
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>on empty ground, no houses
13:23<Ammler>needs 2 tiles?
13:23<LeviathNL>Can't get the mersenne twister to work, I ran make "CFLAGS= -DMERSENNE_TWISTER" (is this what you meant?) but it still gave me errors
13:23<@Rubidium>then again... is any of you using a newindustries newgrf?
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>yes 2*1
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>ecs
13:23<Ammler>me none
13:24<+glx>LeviathNL: make MERSENNE_TWISTER:=1
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>but bank looks the same
13:24<@Rubidium>that doesn't say a thing
13:24<TrueBrain>glx: that is for 0.5 maybe ;)
13:24<+glx>should work in trunk too :)
13:25<TrueBrain>you might be right ;)
13:25<skidd13>LeviathNL: http://bugs.openttd.org/?getfile=1764 <- this patch modifys the configure. Then you are able to enable it by configure
13:25<Gonozal_VIII>building must be demolished first when i try on houses
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13:26<Ammler>after I had the problem, I made "svn revert . -R" and "svn up" now I tried with r11367, I can place all other default industries, but no bank...
13:26<TrueBrain>"ecalculated from from the" <- almost skidd13 ;)
13:27<skidd13>Damn
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13:28<skidd13>Updated
13:30<TrueBrain>finally ;)
13:30<TrueBrain>hehe
13:31<skidd13>Has been a long day working with CAD. This shakes your brain really down.
13:32<TrueBrain>hehe :)
13:34<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: could you try building a bank on a smaller town?
13:34<Gonozal_VIII>i did, not possible under 1200 people
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13:37<Galamantyl`>Hey
13:39<LeviathNL>interesting to compare 2 maps with the same seed with & without mersenne
13:39<Galamantyl`>I'm just about done a hard-settings map and everybody quit on me. :(
13:40<@Rubidium>Galamantyl`: don't be bothered by them. After a while your server will be a known hard server and more people interested in such a game will join.
13:41<Galamantyl`>I doubt it. A lot of people did join at first, but wanted special settings turned on to make it easier for them.
13:41<skidd13>LeviathNL: Comparing the city growth is more interesting ;)
13:41[~]fjb doesn't like it too easy.
13:41<Galamantyl`>Like the Realistic Train Accelleration. I'm told that makes trains climb hills faster.
13:42<Galamantyl`>Which defeats the point of RVs almost.
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13:43<Galamantyl`>They wanted flatter land and less water so they can build stuff at a lower cost. That makes airplanes the main advantage.
13:43<@Rubidium>how's the server called by the way?
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13:44<Galamantyl`>-[EN/CAN]-Hard-Arctic-Competitive
13:44<Galamantyl`>Oh yes
13:44<Galamantyl`>They also didn't like it being arctic
13:44<fjb>Most people seam to prefer flat land. But where is the fun when I get rich after two years and can build anything I want? It gets really boring then.
13:44<Galamantyl`>They wanted temperate
13:44<Galamantyl`>Exactly!
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13:45<Galamantyl`>80% of the people who joined went out of business because they a) built train routes that were not cost-effective and b) built really long connections they couldn't maintain
13:45<Galamantyl`>They wanted disasters off, break-downs reduced, ect.,
13:45<Galamantyl`>But I managed to stay in
13:45<Galamantyl`>Although, the #1 complaint was the pace
13:46<Galamantyl`>Because the starting loan was $200,000, the income generated from any route was slow.
13:46<Galamantyl`>Actually, it wasn't just me
13:46<Galamantyl`>Two people made it
13:46<Galamantyl`>Sorry... Three
13:47|-|BJH2 [~chatzilla@e176121010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
13:47<Galamantyl`>There used to be four... Started by a guy named "Fluffy"
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13:47<Galamantyl`>Oh yes, people complained the map was too small too
13:47<Galamantyl`>Because I wanted to spark a bit of competition in there.
13:48<@Rubidium>there will always be a lot of people complaining when the map is "hard"
13:48<Galamantyl`>So I turn Realistic Train Accelleration on, Disasters off, and set the map to flatlands...
13:48<Galamantyl`>That means no more RVs
13:48<Galamantyl`>No more boats
13:48<Galamantyl`>Trains
13:49<Galamantyl`>Whole thing: Trains
13:49<Noldo>some people are simply in love with trains
13:49<Galamantyl`>I am too. But that's the idea behind a hard game
13:49<@Rubidium>and it's better to play with two or three people on a server that you like yourself than making your server such that there will be 8 people playing and you don't like to play it anymore
13:49<Gonozal_VIII>turn weight multiplier for freight up
13:50<Galamantyl`>I'm happy with the default game mechanics. If I'm dealing with transportation up and down a mountain, I'll go RV. If I'm dealing with long-ranged transportation on the same terrain, I'll go train.
13:50<Galamantyl`>It's strategic
13:51<Gonozal_VIII>ships are fastest uphill^^
13:52<Galamantyl`>A ship will go uphill faster than an RV?
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>depends on settings
13:52<Galamantyl`>See! That's what I'm talking about
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>but ships don't slow down
13:52<Phazorx>how hard would it be to section trees, vegitation, height and obstacles into different section in the save file?
13:52<Phazorx>different sections i mean, one for each
13:53<@Rubidium>Galamantyl`: a ship going up a lock does not stop, so it keeps it's speed
13:53<@Rubidium>using a hovercraft going 100 (or so) km/h it's probably faster than a RV
13:53<Galamantyl`>Hovercraft costs more to maintain
13:54<Gonozal_VIII>with more capacity
13:54<Galamantyl`>With a higher initial cost
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13:55<LeviathNL>skidd13, how did you compare citygrowth? I'm runnin a game with and one without the mersenne with the same savegame now.
13:55<fjb>Who cares about the initial cost? It has more cpacity and is much faster.
13:56<Galamantyl`>Hovercraft can only carry 100 passengers.
13:57<Galamantyl`>Bakewell 300 hovercraft (100 passengers : 248k / year : 112kmph) verses Foster Mk2 Bus (40 passengers : 89k / year : 127 kmph)
13:57<fjb>A bus only 40.
13:58<Galamantyl`>Foster Mk2 Bus also costs only 90k / year
13:58<Galamantyl`>The cost / year is meant to be relative since it's the current rate in my game
13:58<@Rubidium>bus will go much slower uphill (IIRC)
13:59<fjb>A bus going uphill is < 40km/h
13:59<Phazorx>Rubidium: that bring me to a Q - why ships do go diagonal
14:00<Phazorx>do not
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>they do
14:00<Galamantyl`>That's a pretty acceptable delay considering how high terrain can go
14:01<fjb>Galamantyl`: But a hovercraft goes with 100km/h uphill.
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14:01<Galamantyl`>That's fine. The cost per year is still huge compared to a bus
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14:02<fjb>But passenger pay a lot more when they arrive earlier.
14:03<Galamantyl`>Depends on the time travelled
14:03<Gonozal_VIII>payment rate is higher for faster delivery.... would have to test it ingame to know for sure which one is better
14:03<Galamantyl`>Hovercrafts also take a while to appear
14:03<Galamantyl`>if starting from 1950
14:03<Galamantyl`>Plus, remember, we're talking passengers only here
14:03<Galamantyl`>if it was an industry, I'd be using RVs still
14:04<Galamantyl`>I like trains. I never said I didn't, In fact, I'm even using trains, and my company is called: "Wheel n' Go". And yes, I know trains have wheels, but when you hear: Wheel, you probably think 'car'
14:04<skidd13>LeviathNL: The on a similar way as you compare the terra gen. I seed a game with and with out. And plant a city on the same spot. And compare the original town growth algorithm.
14:04<Gonozal_VIII>use a train and go around the hill or through a tunnel ;-)
14:05<Galamantyl`>What if the industry is at the top of the hill, and the destination is at the bottom of the hill?
14:05<Galamantyl`>And what if you only have $100,000 to yer name?
14:05<skidd13>LeviathNL: In the scenario editor of cause ;)
14:05<Gonozal_VIII>empty vehicles usually don't have problems with slopes
14:06<Galamantyl`>Okay, the destination is uphill
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>serpentines
14:06<Galamantyl`>?
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>maybe that's not a correct english word sorry..
14:07<Galamantyl`>This is why people want realistic train accelleration on, and then nobody needs to use RVs
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>realistic acceleration doesn't let trains climb long slopes better, they only don't slow down that much on a single sloped tile
14:08<Galamantyl`>How long is a tile? 5 km?
14:09<Gonozal_VIII>2km iirc
14:09<Gonozal_VIII>and 50m height difference
14:09<Galamantyl`>So a train going at 80 kmph will cross 40 tiles in a second?
14:10<Galamantyl`>The answer... To that question... is no
14:10<Galamantyl`>But let's say it's 2 km anyway
14:10<Galamantyl`>You're telling me that a train will not slow down at all during that 1st kilometer?
14:10<Galamantyl`>It uses the laws of motion to glide it's way up the whole 2km?
14:10<Gonozal_VIII>it will but not that much
14:11<Galamantyl`>That's not realistic
14:11<Galamantyl`>Why is it called realistic?
14:11<Gonozal_VIII>distances and times in the game are not realistic at all
14:11<Galamantyl`>Ding ding ding!
14:11<Galamantyl`>That's right.
14:11<Galamantyl`>So why should I turn on a setting that does something like that?
14:11<Gonozal_VIII>but it looks somewhat more realistic
14:12<LeviathNL>80kmph = ! 80kmps
14:12<Galamantyl`>I need to get myself a train set...
14:12<Galamantyl`>Scaled down really small
14:12<Galamantyl`>And see if it will keep it's speed after 5 scaled-down kilomters
14:12<Galamantyl`>sorry, 2
14:13<Galamantyl`>In the default settings, the train doesn't slow down immediately. But it does slow down before it crosses the first tile
14:13<Gonozal_VIII>50m height difference on 2km distance won't slow down a train in rl
14:13<Galamantyl`>it's 2 kilometers...
14:14<Galamantyl`>And I don't even think the tile is 2km. I have never seen a train going at 80 kmph cross 40 tiles in a second.
14:14<Gonozal_VIII>[19:12:08] LeviathNL: 80kmph = ! 80kmps
14:14<Galamantyl`>Oh
14:14<Galamantyl`>Sorry
14:14<Galamantyl`>My bad
14:14<Galamantyl`>blah
14:15<Galamantyl`>Alright, 2km sounds right
14:15<Galamantyl`>I still don't think it should be on.
14:15<Galamantyl`>It defeats the point of RVs still.
14:16<Gonozal_VIII>you could use a trainnset that doesn't have so fast trains
14:16<Galamantyl`>The train is possibly the 2nd most-efficient way of making money in the game. There's a reason it has it's flaws. :P
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14:16<fjb>Having it on doesn't render road vehicles useless. At least not when you know what you are doing.
14:16<LeviathNL>they use 12,5 >m< as tile length for 32bpp development
14:17<Gonozal_VIII>rvs have no chance against the maglevs but against dbset trains with low side wagons that are restricted to 80 km/h
14:17<Galamantyl`>By the time maglevs come around, you'd have to be pretty ruthless to destroy your bus stations and replace em in the middle of the cities.
14:17<LeviathNL>I never understood why they use 50 meter as height difference per tile
14:18<Galamantyl`>50 is a nice round number
14:18<Galamantyl`>It's got a prime number digit and a non-divisible number digit
14:18<Galamantyl`>Who wouldn't love that combination?
14:18<LeviathNL>10 also
14:18<fjb>The fast cargo trains in the original game are unrealistic, but not setting realistic acceleration doesn't change that fact.
14:18<Galamantyl`>10 binary or 10 decimal?
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14:19<LeviathNL>hex ;)
14:20<fjb>And the road vehicles in the original game are not very realistic either. There are bigger busses since years.
14:20<Galamantyl`>I'll admit, the passenger RVs are pretty stupid
14:20<Galamantyl`>I swear I've seen a bus here cram more than 40 people into it
14:20<fjb>2037 and the biggest bus has 40 passengers? That is silly.
14:21<Gonozal_VIII>trams :-)
14:21<fjb>We were over 100 people in the bus every morning when I went to scholl in the 80s of the last century.
14:21<Galamantyl`>Technically train carts should carry more, and boats even more so, but they don't
14:21<Galamantyl`>So as far as passengers go, it's pretty silly all around
14:22<Galamantyl`>They don't even account for dining cars for trains
14:22<Galamantyl`>Isn't that just stupid?
14:22<Gonozal_VIII>in my games i use dbsetxl, long vehicles v4, new ships with capacity multiplier and av8
14:22<Galamantyl`>That should boost station rating by 10%
14:23<Galamantyl`>Doesn't wastelands create flat-terrain for desert regardless of settings?
14:23<Gonozal_VIII>don't start with station rating... the calculation of that is so wrong..
14:24<fjb>The capacity multiplier gave me some trouble when I trieds it. But the vehicle sets make it far more realistic and fun.
14:24<Galamantyl`>I wasn't getting into station rating calculations. I was just suggesting that this game is flawed because it doesn't have dining cars for trains
14:24<Galamantyl`>I think that was a perfectly acceptable argument
14:24<Gonozal_VIII>dbset has dining cars
14:24<Galamantyl`>What do they do?
14:24<Galamantyl`>Don't tell me they transport food
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>have some different pixels^^
14:25<Galamantyl`>What do they hold?
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>passengers
14:25<Galamantyl`>Passengers sit in dining cars?
14:25<Galamantyl`>That doesn't make sense at all!
14:25<fjb>Where else should they sit?
14:26<fjb>I have seen people sitting in dining cars.
14:26<Galamantyl`>You're not supposed to "ride" in a dining car. you're supposed to eat there.
14:26<Galamantyl`>Sometimes they have music playing too
14:26<Galamantyl`>And TV
14:26<Galamantyl`>If each tile is 2km...
14:27<Galamantyl`>Why do vehicles occupy 1/2 the tile?
14:27<fjb>That's why the road vehicle set is called long vehicles.
14:27<Galamantyl`>Train stations take up at least 3 squares on average...
14:28<Galamantyl`>Are you telling me train stations are 2x6 km?
14:28<Galamantyl`>That's pretty big...
14:28<fjb>Only 3 squares? How short are that trains?
14:28<Galamantyl`>I think our provincial airport is that big
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14:28<Galamantyl`>Okay... So... 2x10 tiles then
14:28<Galamantyl`>You're saying train stations occupy 20 square km?
14:29<Galamantyl`>That's huge... That doesn't even make sense.
14:29<fjb>Galamantyl`: Go to google maps (or any other service thar shows aerial photos) and look how big train stations are in real.
14:29<Galamantyl`>they can't possibly be 20 square km
14:30<Gono_ping_timeout>yes and a soccer field is 4km from goal to goal... you can't compare game scales to rl
14:30<Galamantyl`>Sorry, larger than that
14:30<Galamantyl`>4km x 20km is ...
14:30<fjb>Galamantyl`: Maybe TTD is just the wrong game for you.
14:30<Galamantyl`>a big number
14:30<TrueBrain>hmm, I thought I was in #openttd
14:30<TrueBrain>but clearly I am in #fantasy_land
14:30<TrueBrain>doh
14:30<Galamantyl`>What?
14:30<Galamantyl`>???
14:30<Galamantyl`>No, this is #openttd
14:31<+glx>there are many scales in TTD
14:31<TrueBrain>hmm, then why are people talking about things need to be in-scale...
14:31<TrueBrain>weird
14:31<Galamantyl`>I wasn't saying it had to be
14:31<Galamantyl`>I was just... wondering
14:31<Galamantyl`>It's a fair question
14:31<fjb>What is the singular of people?
14:31<TrueBrain>so you also want that a train-ride goes with 80 km/h
14:31<TrueBrain>so.. that is like... instantly
14:31<Galamantyl`>No no...
14:31<Galamantyl`>80 kmps
14:31<TrueBrain>Galamantyl`: no, it is a stupid question. IF you want realism, walk outside. If you want a game, download OpenTTD
14:32<Galamantyl`>I want a challenging game
14:32<TrueBrain>80 km/h = 2000 km/d, is 200 tiles a day... wow... talking about not-realistic....
14:32<TrueBrain>so, a game can't be challenging if the scales don't add up?
14:32<TrueBrain>I guess you won't be playing any game any time soon
14:32<Galamantyl`>No
14:33<fjb>Btw, dividing the world into squares is not realistic either.
14:33<Galamantyl`>But I don't see how "Realistic" train accelleration makes a game more challenging
14:33<TrueBrain>as said, I must have mistaken this channel for #fantasy_land
14:34[~]fjb knows, why everybody leaves Galamantyl`s game.
14:34<TrueBrain>simple: it is more realistic :)
14:34<Galamantyl`>Now you're just being hostile
14:34<Galamantyl`>When I haven't offended anyone
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14:34<fjb>I have never seen a train loose half of his speed while going up a ramp to a bridge...
14:35<TrueBrain>Galamantyl`: the whole game is scaled, but not scaled towards other objects
14:35<TrueBrain>trains have a certain length-per-tile indicator
14:35<TrueBrain>the speed matches that
14:35<TrueBrain>the old acceleration is just plain weird
14:36<TrueBrain>so, 'realistic' acceleration, which is, for your information, just a name, but named that, because it is based on pure physics, fixes that
14:36<TrueBrain>in their little scaled world, they accelerate realistic
14:36<TrueBrain>keeping in mind weight, power, and track
14:36<TrueBrain>and yes, for each individual it might or might not be more challenging
14:36<TrueBrain>but for sure, it is more realistic
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14:38<TrueBrain>fjb: btw, it depends on the type of bridge :p
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14:39<Phazorx>hmm TrueBrain i have a method suggested from here for fixing std -> ni map convertion after adding GRFs with NI support
14:40<Phazorx>which is replacing last section reponsible for cargo prices by one that has them all
14:40<TrueBrain>Phazorx: you know, I have no idea what you just said
14:40<Phazorx>somehow that works for PBI it doesnt work for NC
14:40<fjb>TrueBrain: usual bridges. :-P
14:41<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i mean missing prices for "new" cargo types
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>ni is something that knights like to say
14:41<TrueBrain>Phazorx: nope... still no idea
14:41<TrueBrain>we are the knights that say: NI!
14:41<TrueBrain>NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
14:41<+glx>ni!
14:41<hylje>this is becoming very silly
14:41<Phazorx>say i have an scn with nice landscape i like, i want to add new industry grf into it
14:41<TrueBrain>Phazorx: newgrf.. hmm.. so why are you talking to me again? :)
14:41<Phazorx>and then seed it with industries in some way
14:42<Phazorx>because this is relevant to saveload rather than grf
14:42<Phazorx>lemme finish
14:42<Galamantyl`>Is there realistic RV accelleration?
14:42<+glx>not yet
14:42<TrueBrain>feel free, but you might want to try an other developer ;)
14:43<Phazorx>so i open that scn to play and i see in cargo price graph and see that new pbi cargoes have blank prices
14:43<Phazorx>same goes for ECS or NC cargo typers
14:43<Phazorx>they all are free
14:43<Phazorx>there is a hack for that
14:43<Phazorx>which is replacing last section of the save
14:43<Phazorx>with one that does have prices (from anther save that has been started with corect GRFs in 1st place)
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>what do you mean by cargo price?
14:44<Phazorx>that DOES work for PBI and PBI+BC just fine
14:44<Phazorx>and it doea not work for NC somehow - prices are 0 and if i resave paused map and compare - i see that my changes are reverted
14:45<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: there is a graph which reflects ratio betweenc argo delivery time and resulting income per unit
14:45<Gonozal_VIII>ah payment rates
14:46<Phazorx>TrueBrain (or any other developer who has a clue in the area) - any idea why ot fails like that ?
14:46<Gonozal_VIII>ecs cargos have that
14:46<Gonozal_VIII>wow i have to transport more vehicles
14:47<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: not if you add a grf to existing game/scn
14:47<@Belugas>Ammler:
14:47<@Belugas>[10:11] <Ammler> In difficult settings you can switch off industries
14:47<@Belugas>[10:12] <Ammler> is there a reason to have them later to appear?
14:47<@Belugas>that' sonly valid during creation
14:47<@Belugas>not during gameplay
14:48<@Belugas>on gameplay, industries are entitled to be creted
14:48<Phazorx>Belugas: it would be ncie if it would be valid during gameplay
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>so what you actually need is, if you load a new newgrf, regenerate the cargo payment rates
14:48<Gonozal_VIII>that works without breaking the game? we started a new one when newcargo support came out
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>this has not really a lot to do with saveload
14:48<Ammler>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/ammler/nonewind_r11367.diff
14:48<@Belugas>Phazorx, i don't think so and i'm not even considering it
14:49<Phazorx>Belugas: i dont really see how that can harm anything and it would be ncie to have that option - if a game meant to have only available industries why not use existing option to control it
14:49<Ammler>now I know how to play with this patch settings... :)
14:49<Phazorx>Belugas: reason is with some of PBI feratures placement of station and industries become crucial
14:50<Phazorx>and random spawning industries break a lot of existing network backbone if you are unlucky
14:50<@Belugas>your opinion is noted, thanks
14:50<LeviathNL>Phazorx, I think you can make a grf to disable industries
14:51<Phazorx>LeviathNL: disable random placement of them ?
14:51<Ammler>hmm, possible, but more havy then my patch, I fear...
14:51<Phazorx>Belugas: problem is that random placement part is not aware of limitations that are build into the NI part of grf, so by ignoring it it creates issues that were not forseen before NI came out
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14:52<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: the question is deeper than that i'm affraid, i am not adding anythign to that save game at play time, i only load it or start a scenario with all grfs already there
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14:52<Phazorx>issue is that map was generated before NI grf was included, so it lacks the cargo types and prices
14:53<Phazorx>which is fixed by manually replacing section of the save file
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i remember ;)
14:53<Phazorx>and it does work for some cases and does not for other - NC behavior is quite weird
14:53<@Belugas>Phazorx, if you want to disable random in game appearance, you can, using action 00, prop 18 for industries
14:54<@Belugas>and enjoy your vision of the game ;)
14:54<Phazorx>Belugas: i was suggesting using existing option to control it, for other users, we do have a solution already but it is rather hacky instead of proper patch in trunk
14:55<Ammler>Phazorx: hmm, not sure, if you could take that
14:55<Phazorx>take what ?
14:55<Ammler>maybe you like to generate a blank map, but then industries should appear
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: another "clean" alternative would be a mode of the scenario editor, that just loads the landscape (and possibly towns) from a sav/scn, then applies all settings like normal map generation
14:55<@Belugas>Phazorx, no. simply as that. Your opinion is noted. And pleeeeeaase... stop arguing
14:55<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: apply how ?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>apply as in run the code ;)
14:56<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i presume there is a button for that somewhere already and i just happen to miss it ? :)
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: no, it will have to be coded
14:57<Phazorx>Belugas: i was emrely trying to deliver my point exactly, i'm not insisting on you actualy doing it so, but i felt compelled to provide proper reasoning to be heard
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>just follow the program trail what happens on new game, and replace map generation and town generation step with loading from savegame
14:57<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: very hackish as usual...
14:57<Phazorx>and that most likely would work... hwoever question was why loading the map overwrites part of a save
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "hack" and what's not is not about the way you do it, but about the amount of time you spend making it maintainable
14:59<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i guess that's right but still does not address that i am trying to point out
15:00<@Belugas>Phazorx, i understand your point of view, it has been noted. Don't worry. But i still think that it must not be done. It will, for starter, prohibit newgrf to work as exected. That is out of question. Second, there are already so many stupid questions raised by users who do not know what they are doing to add something that will yet add another ste of confuision. Plus, remember that indyustries do close after a while. So, you'll need to stop closing
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>what you are trying to point out is a "that was never intended to work correctly"
15:00<@Belugas>otherwise, thje map will be empty of industries pretty fast...
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>we should stop having two different discussions at the same time :)
15:01<@Belugas>Phazorx: therefor, my position remains : no. But thanks for raising the subject, once more
15:02<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i'm having more than 2 but they are different enough and i put a name in the sentance to address it:)
15:02<Gonozal_VIII>when number of industries in difficulty settings is set to none there could be also no random spawning industries
15:02<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
15:02<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: close to what i was suggestiong - it should be option controleld and not a default behavior
15:04<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: yet again, i can see replacing of data chunk in a save file to fail, to a point of not being able to load the game. However, changing content of the save file ONLOAD is somethign that i did not expect at all
15:04<Gonozal_VIII>when i start a game with none i either want to place them manually or play passenger only... each way random appearing is not wanted
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15:12<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: there is a time, you should accept the judgement and go forward... (use my patch in the meantime...)
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15:13<Gonozal_VIII>i'm austrian, we tend to accept things but talk a lot about changing them anyways
15:13<Ammler>me too, thats why I made the patch :P
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15:49<yorick>anyone seen dihedral today?
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15:54<Galamantyl`>1 billion dollars
15:54<Galamantyl`>mwahaha
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>profit last year?
15:56|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43614.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
15:56<Galamantyl`>I can't spend it fast enough
15:56<Galamantyl`>26 mil
15:57<Galamantyl`>It's a fairly small map according to most people who joined.
15:58<Galamantyl`>Does the desert tileset create flatland on desert terrain?
15:58<Galamantyl`>regardless of map settings?
15:58[~]Prof_Frink throws Mountain Transport at Galamantyl`
15:59<Galamantyl`>I'm just wondering is all
15:59<Prof_Frink>Annual profit? I'm not sure, it overflows TTDPatch's calculation on Jan 1
16:00<Prof_Frink>Galamantyl`: Yes, Desert is always part flat desert, part hilly rainforest
16:00<Galamantyl`>That sounds like a very frustrating type of game
16:00<Prof_Frink>Unless $openttd_dev changed that.
16:01<Gonozal_VIII>you need more expensive vehicles... it's 2 million euro for a single ice3 train
16:03<yorick>did anybody see dihedral today?
16:03[~]fjb has realistic acceleration on and makes most mony with road vehicles. :-)
16:03<fjb>!seen dihedral
16:03<+_42_>fjb, dihedral (~dihedral@dslb-084-056-242-214.pools.arcor-ip.net) was last seen quitting #openttdcoop 10 hours 4 minutes ago (01.11. 09:58) stating "Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.8/2007100816]" after spending 1 hour 59 minutes there.
16:04<TrueBrain>and if you don't believe that bot:
16:04<TrueBrain>@openttd dihedral
16:04<TrueBrain>@seen dihedral
16:04<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: dihedral was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 8 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <dihedral> hi
16:04<TrueBrain>lol
16:04<yorick>ok
16:05<yorick>wanted to congrat him with his openttdcoop membership
16:05[~]Prof_Frink wonders if there's a command that will send the bots into an infinite loop
16:05<Gonozal_VIII>road vehicles could use a better pathfinder for multi bay stations, somehow that only works good at short distances
16:05<yorick>@seen DorpsGek
16:05<@DorpsGek>yorick: I have not seen DorpsGek.
16:05<yorick>!seen _42_
16:05<+_42_>yorick, if you can't see _42_ here right now, you probably need new glasses. ^_^
16:06<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: now you mention it, I do have my doubt about the following command:
16:06<TrueBrain>@kick Prof_Frink infinite loop?
16:06|-|Prof_Frink kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [infinite loop?]
16:06[~]yorick wonders too
16:06<TrueBrain>hmm, guess not...
16:06|-|Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5acede6c.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
16:06<Prof_Frink>Oi.
16:06<TrueBrain>sorry, Prof_Frink, clearly I was wrong :)
16:06[~]Prof_Frink should have seen that coming
16:06<yorick>@help
16:06<@DorpsGek>yorick: help [<plugin>] [<command>]
16:06<TrueBrain>yup!
16:07<yorick>@help kick
16:07<@DorpsGek>yorick: (kick [<channel>] <nick> [<reason>]) -- Kicks <nick> from <channel> for <reason>. If <reason> isn't given, uses the nick of the person making the command as the reason. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
16:07<TrueBrain>yorick: take this to a PM with DorpsGek
16:07<yorick>doesn't work
16:07<TrueBrain>sure it does
16:07<TrueBrain>just don't add the @
16:07<yorick>@notice DorpsGek help
16:08<yorick>the /notice DorpsGek help command doesn't work
16:08<TrueBrain>start a PM
16:08<Prof_Frink>There's always `/disco help me DorpsGek, you're my only hope`
16:08|-|mikk36 [~mikk36@ip223.cab56.mus.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
16:08<mikk36>hey :)
16:08<TrueBrain>hi
16:09<mikk36>q about latest nightlyes, you have of course tested them
16:09<mikk36>any particular number that is suitable enough for mp ?
16:09<fjb>I just build a railway to an ECS industry and before the first train arrived the industry closed down. :-(
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16:11<TrueBrain>mikk36: the latest
16:11<mikk36>uhm, ok
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16:39<TrueBrain>Ni!
16:41<Gonozal_VIII> Ekky-ekky-ekky-ekky-z'Bang, zoom-Boing, z'nourrrwringmm
16:41<Ailure>haha
16:41<Ailure>politicans are stupid here
16:41<Ailure>or at least
16:41<Ailure>a politican was
16:42<Ailure>A politican expressed concern over buying more Öresundst$BiH(B from Bombardier due to the recent aircraft ban on the Bombardier's Dash aircraft due to security related issues
16:42<Ailure>eh safety rather
16:43<Ailure>or I forgot if it was dash
16:43<Ailure>oh wait, t is
16:45<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_Dash_8#Notable_incidents_and_accidents
16:45<hylje>:o
16:46<Ailure>But yeah, kinda silly as Aircraft safety and train safety differs alot
16:46<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96resundst%C3%A5g
16:47<Ailure>It's over this train the politican was expressing his concern over
16:47|-|KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-179-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:47<Ailure>I want whatever he is smoking, it's a safe and moderntrain. :<
16:47<Ailure>haha
16:47<Ailure>it's halfy translated
16:47<hylje>moderntrain!
16:48<Ailure>I meant "a modern train"
16:48<Ailure>My fingers slipped over the keys ;P
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16:49<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't look like it has good aerodynamic
16:49<Galamantyl`>"What?" Planting trees raises local city rating?
16:50<hylje>yes
16:50<Ailure>heh
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>yes... you can remove whole cities with that
16:50<Ailure>the X2 trains that also go by here have good aerodynamics
16:50<Ailure>I dunno why they went with a bottle-like shape for the ends
16:51<Ailure>heh
16:51<Ailure>my city H$BgT(Bsleholm is in the list of stops :D
16:51<hylje>are those EMUs or single powered cars?
16:51<Galamantyl`>So I can just... Destroy an industry... Any industry I want... As long as the city loves me...
16:51<Galamantyl`>Then plant trees to get them to love me again?
16:51<hylje>up to "good"
16:52<Galamantyl`>Isn't this somewhat exploitable?
16:52<Ailure>As far I know
16:52<Ailure>they're EMU's
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>no industries
16:52<Ailure>They're a pretty good train too
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>only if you cheat
16:52<Ailure>I would love seeing it in a trainset
16:52<Ailure>:p
16:52<Galamantyl`>It says on the wiki that someone with over 768 rating with that city can destroy an industry
16:52<Ailure>what
16:53<Ailure>which wiki
16:53<Ailure>what industries are you talking about anyway
16:53<Galamantyl`>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Game_Mechanics
16:53<Ailure>ah wait
16:53<Ailure>that's only true
16:53<Ailure>if you enable the super dynamite cheat
16:53<Ailure>I belive
16:53<Gonozal_VIII>some buildings need very good like churches, stadiums or some office towers but i don't think that you can bulldoze industries that way
16:54<Ailure>unless that's related to a newindustries flag
16:54<Ailure>of some kind
16:54<Galamantyl`>Alright, let's find out
16:54<Galamantyl`>I'm currently in "Outstanding" standing with this one town
16:55<Galamantyl`>So I'm definitely over 768 rating
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16:55<Galamantyl`>Let's see if I can bulldoze their printing works factory
16:55<Galamantyl`>Interesting. It doesn't let me
16:55<Galamantyl`>Then why does it say it on the wiki?
16:56<Ailure>hold down ctrl+alt+c
16:56<Gonozal_VIII>the game should have a lower minimum, then you couldn't use trees that way
16:56<Ailure>enable the magic bulldozer cheat
16:56<Ailure>try to destroy the industry
16:56<Ailure>then check if it affects ratings
16:56<Ailure>I think the magic bulldozer cheat kinda makes the game ignore ratings though, so you can destroy everything no matter how low it is
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't if you enable build while paused and pause the game while removing anything
16:57<Ailure>could always be a situation that is coded in that way
16:57<Ailure>but shouldn't normally happen
16:57<Ailure>heh
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17:01<Galamantyl`>The skyranger is in this game???
17:01<Gonozal_VIII>ok rating changes with build in pause... maybe that's new but the cost is much lower then without pause
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17:16<Galamantyl`>My game is almost over
17:16<Galamantyl`>1 more year
17:16<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't really stop then
17:17<Galamantyl`>It doesn't?
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>nope
17:17<Galamantyl`>???????
17:17<Galamantyl`>I thought it's supposed to
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>highscore is calculated but the game goes on
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17:18<Galamantyl`>Does it at least provide statistics and stuff?
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>wait and see ;-)
17:18<Galamantyl`>This'll be a pretty crappy game if I don't see somethin fancy
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17:21<Gonozal_VIII>the years used to stop at 2090 but that's also gone
17:22<hylje>it goes up to five million now
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>nice^^
17:22<Galamantyl`>That's just silly
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>by then we will be floating around using the power of our minds... or something like that^^
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17:27<Gonozal_VIII>is somebody working on a grf for vehicles before 1920? older steamers, horse drawn and such?
17:27<Galamantyl`>That wasn't fancy at all!
17:27<Phazorx>horse drawn?
17:28<Phazorx>by time it finishes 1st round trip it will be 1950 and diesel era
17:30<Gonozal_VIII>wouldn't be that much slower than ships
17:32<Ailure>prboably would have very low running cost too
17:32<Ailure>or else it wouldn't be worth it :P
17:33<TrueBrain>http://www.pc-gamers.com/webgamex/iso_js_coords.php <- nice :)
17:33<Gonozal_VIII>the grf could start in 1800 with horses and some years later first little steamers and so on..
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17:46<tiaz_>heh
17:47<mikk36>lol
17:47<mikk36>that's one hopeful town :)
17:47<mikk36>http://mikk36.eu/web/random_shit/Ardo%20Transport,%2012th%20Jan%201954.png
17:52<tiaz_>http://operationcitadel.net/img/remote/sa/argh.png
17:52<tiaz_>this was before bribes :(
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>the sprites below the tracks don't fit
17:54<tiaz_>that's what happens when you waterworld a desert
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18:04<Gonozal_VIII>is it normal that when you remove a ship depot located in a canal, the depot tiles change to water, no matter what height level?
18:05<TrueBrain>SpComb: weren't you the one saying I should use prototype?
18:05<tiaz_>isn't that desirable?
18:05<SpComb>yes
18:05<TrueBrain>They really made a big advancement last time I checked ;)
18:05<TrueBrain>so tnx for the reminder :)
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18:06<SpComb>that thing is painfully, painfully slow
18:06<TrueBrain>'thing'?
18:07<SpComb>the pca-gamers thing
18:07<TrueBrain>yes
18:07<TrueBrain>I was annoyed by it
18:07<TrueBrain>but okay, browsers are bad in SWG data :)
18:07<SpComb>it uses 100% CPU
18:09<SpComb>DOM manipulation is unusably slow
18:15<TrueBrain>SpComb: a classic example of overdoing it ;)
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18:22<TrueBrain>I wonder if I can make in Python that you don't have to restart the server over and over...
18:23<ln-->time for comedy: http://pastebin.ca/758005
18:23<TrueBrain>more like horror
18:25<ln-->it's coded by university CS students.
18:25<TrueBrain>please give them a leason: consistancy
18:25<ln-->fortunately not the same university i'm in.
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18:27<TrueBrain>I stopped reading after:
18:27<TrueBrain>#
18:27<TrueBrain> case ('B'): case ('b'): number += (int)(11*(pow(16.0,(double)counter))); break;
18:27<TrueBrain>#
18:27<TrueBrain> case ('C'): case 'c': number += (int)(12*(pow(16.0,(double)counter))); break;
18:29<ln-->i also like: default: number += (int)(atoi(&c)*(pow(16.0,(double)counter))); break;
18:31<ln-->it would simply be so boring if the value assigned to 'number' only was a function of 'c', which is a char, would it not.
18:32<ln-->now there's a new touch of excitement since we don't know for sure what number will be if c is e.g. '1'.
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18:37<Phazorx>hmm... i recall asking about thta before but i dotn have a record of the anser unfortunately
18:37<Phazorx>where is the coop that generates industries when "many random" is pressed within the editor
18:38<SpComb>TrueBrain: creative use of reload()
18:38<SpComb>it depends on how your code works, it's somewhat hairy
18:40<Ailure>bahaha
18:40<Ailure>that actually reminds about how one of my classmates programmed some code for a project
18:40<Ailure>it was just a huge switch statement
18:41<Phazorx>i saw a riversi game logic programmed with 1300 ifs and a bord consisting of 64 independed objects with assigned neighbours... nothing can impress me any more :)
18:41<Ailure>that's how he programmed his program
18:41<Ailure>we were going to create a simple client<->server program
18:42<Ailure>with a simple tic-tac-toe multiplyer game
18:42<Ailure>I was mostly working on the server<->client part
18:42<Phazorx>ttt is p2p
18:42<Ailure>he was working on the game logic
18:42<Phazorx>well logic needs ifs :)
18:42<Ailure>I was the one who also pasted it all together (so in the end, I winded up with most of the work)
18:42<Ailure>and I had a hard time following his code
18:43<Ailure>becuse he made it way more complicated than it's needed
18:43<Ailure>with some ideas that just dosen't make sense
18:43<Phazorx>well i bet hew knew what functions and arreays are
18:43<Tefad>ifs?
18:43<Phazorx>if statement
18:43<Tefad>oh.
18:43<Phazorx>Ailure: in my cases these there a mistery to the author
18:44<Ailure>what is this code suposed to be doing
18:44<Ailure>anyway
18:45<Phazorx>this ?
18:45<Ailure>yeah
18:45<Ailure>I have a hard time following it myself
18:45<Phazorx>the one i am discribing was the reversi game
18:45<Phazorx>single player
18:45<Ailure>but it seems to be related to hexdecimal numbers and strings
18:45<Ailure>http://pastebin.ca/758005
18:45<Ailure>this one
18:45<@Rubidium>what it does? well... break stuff that assume it is correct
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18:46<Ailure>I made a variable->String algorithm once somewhere for a firmware
18:46<Ailure>it was fun to make :)
18:47<Ailure>let me just find it
18:47<Ailure>it was a fun course
18:47<Ailure>especially when I got a lab mate that never touched a programming language before
18:47<Phazorx>Rubidium: where is the loop that generates industries ?
18:48<Phazorx>industry_gui somewhere?
18:49[~]SpComb needs to get around to writing network client code for a Java thing
18:49<SpComb>it'd be fine if it was in Python, but I'm somewhat unfamiliar with Java in that regard
18:50<Ailure>http://194.47.44.201/sendNumber.txt
18:50<@Rubidium>Ailure, well... what it does: write out of bounds, read out of bounds, perform magical additions (the kind that sometimes adds more then you want it to add (254..254 (i.e. all 254) ++ -> 0), not returning a useful string representation (0 and '0' are both mapped to '0', so it's one-way)
18:50<Ailure>I considered this code to be hacky ahahaha
18:50<@Rubidium>Phazorx: tried searching for generate and industry?
18:50<@Rubidium>or the plural thereof?
18:51<Ailure>ah
18:51<Phazorx>rubidiom i'm having issues confirming there is only one for editor and map generation
18:51<Ailure>sonds fun
18:51<Ailure>heh
18:51<Phazorx>industry_cmd:1706 is the functiona that does it
18:51<Ailure>My biggest obstacle with C though
18:51<Ailure>was the concepts of pointers
18:52<Phazorx>now what i dont know if there is more to it and editor using something else
18:52<@Rubidium>Ailure: it ain't C
18:52<Ailure>it might sound silly, but if you're been devoloping in Java for too long time
18:52<Ailure>well
18:52<Ailure>I got it quickly
18:52<Ailure>but it was still something I had to get used to
18:52<@Rubidium>the map editor uses the same thing
18:52<@Rubidium>or so I think
18:52<Ailure>[23:49] <Rubidium> Ailure: it ain't C
18:52<Ailure>why not?
18:52<Phazorx>Ailure: that's difference between lously typed/scripted languages with it's own memory management and strict resource allocation languages
18:53<Ailure>the code I posted is C
18:53<Ailure>although just a short snipped
18:53<Ailure>the main method and include statements and all that is excluded
18:53<@Rubidium>Ailure: good luck trying to compile it with a C compiler
18:54<Ailure>the tU8 and tU32 are defined in a header file btw
18:54<Phazorx>Rubidium: map editor does not care about "number of industry" dificulty setting (at least visualy) and this function lloks like does... hence the suspicion that i am looking in wrong place :|
18:54<@Rubidium>or is the C standard changed lately so it includes classes and such
18:54<Ailure>if it's those you are referring to
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18:55<Ailure>What with the code does it not make it C?
18:55<Ailure><<
18:55<Ailure>http://194.47.44.201/sendNumber.txt
18:55<Ailure>here
18:55<Ailure>unless you are talking about a diffrent source
18:55<Ailure>haha
18:55<@Rubidium>I'm talking about the pastebin thingy
18:55<Ailure>oh
18:55<Ailure>haha
18:55<Ailure>that's definatly C++
18:56<Ailure>yeah
18:56<Ailure>no wonder
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19:35|-|mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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19:44<Wolf01>'night
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20:10[~]Smoovious touches the brim of his black hat™.
20:11<TrueBrain>Starting server at port 8080
20:11<TrueBrain>File /www/stackless/webtt/map.py changed, reloading server..
20:11<TrueBrain>Starting server at port 8080
20:11<TrueBrain>I love software :)
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20:19<|fjb|>!logs
20:19<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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22:08|-|Osai^2 changed nick to Osai
22:08<Galamantyl`>Um...
22:08<Galamantyl`>How do I run a dedicated server?
22:09<+glx>openttd -D
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 02 00:00:33 2007