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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-03

---Logopened Sat Nov 03 00:00:50 2007
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00:10<BigBB>can someone please tell me how is the action for NewGRF to check if TTDP or OTTD?
00:11<BigBB>I think there is one ?!
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00:12<BigBB>ah, DaleStan :) can you please tell me how is the action for NewGRF to check if TTDP or OTTD?
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00:54<Gonozal_VIII>anybody what?
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01:38<DaleStan>BigBB: Action 7, var 9D.
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02:03<Jello>hey everyone
02:06<Jello>can i buy out other buisnesses even if there not bankrupt?
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02:08<Rubidium>in MP no, in SP yes
02:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11370 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS1384]: manually replacing a vehicle with shared orders makes it lose it's order index and service interval. Patch by jthill.
02:21<huma>ah, thanks
02:33<Jello>yea im in SP
02:33<Jello>where do i go to buy it out?
02:34<Rubidium>company window -> buy shares till you've got all of them
02:34<Rubidium>maybe you need to enable the patch option that makes you able to take over companies (somewhere under economy I guess)
02:35<huma>Rubidium, you're on linux?
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06:17<Markkisen>BigBB, no I'm swedish
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06:19<Gonozal_VIII>? i don't see bigbb here
06:19<Markkisen>I realized that
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06:20<Gonozal_VIII>ah ok
06:20<Gonozal_VIII>i thought there was a problem with my irc client or something with you answering a question i couldn't see
06:21<Markkisen>He ased it 3:51AM (UTC +1)
06:21<Markkisen>Wait, isnt that CET?
06:22<Gonozal_VIII>[07:00:05] *** BigBB has signed off IRC (Remote host closed the connection).
06:22<Gonozal_VIII>7 cet :-)
06:25<Wolf01>stop turning your head in the wrong direction, you make me have pain in my neck
06:26<TrueBrain>yeah, I can't rotate my head 180 degrees
06:26<TrueBrain>(you are truly internet addicted, when you rotate your head 90 degrees to smile)
06:26<TrueBrain>(and then you should turn your head, and smile, to whoe ver you tell it)
06:28<Wolf01>anybody here used to eggdrops (maybe you TrueBrain ;) )
06:29<Wolf01>i can't make mine working, it doesn't accept any ctcp chat or dcc chat session
06:29<TrueBrain>I made it to ignore those 2 :p
06:29<TrueBrain>but dcc mostly is a firewall issue
06:29<TrueBrain>(it might require incoming signal)
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06:32<Gonozal_VIII>i think i wrote some script stuff years ago but can't remember because my memory is... what did i want to say? :S
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07:03<Markkisen>Wolf01 (:
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07:03<Markkisen>No, time to go home (:
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07:15<Wolf01>good, now works, now i should only find an talian language for the chatbot
07:15<Wolf01>and maybe teach him some infos about ottd
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08:28[~]SpComb breaks MyOTTD
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08:34<SpComb>hmm... the number of active servers just went down drastically
08:34<SpComb>I wonder if that was supposed to happen
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09:05<SpComb>but the point is, MyOTTD isn't dead, even though I haven't touched it for ages!
09:08<TrueBrain>I assume that with 'ages', you mean game-years?
09:12<SpComb>ages as in three weeks
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09:25<Ailure>ah yeah
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09:25<Ailure>the online hosting service
09:25<Ailure>wouldn't it be tricky to make sure that like
09:26<Ailure>a hosted server won't take all avaible CPU time on the server
09:27<SpComb>Ailure: yes, you'd need to figure out what configuration settings influence the CPU usage
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09:33<Ailure>funny how a game that that was orginally made to run on 486 computers
09:33<Ailure>can run so slow on the most modern computers with the wrong configuration :)
09:34<Ailure>well, it can be mostly blamed on the newer pathfinders heh
09:34<Ailure>especially when ou use them on the ships
09:34<SpComb>there's one process that's using a fair amount of CPU
09:37<Ailure>the most processor intesive game I played
09:37<Ailure>was that wwottdgd game
09:38<Ailure>and while my processor hardly got to reach it's max, I noticed that the longer the game went on, the less people were able to play on it
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09:59<Eddi|zuHause3><Ailure> and while my processor hardly got to reach it's max, I noticed that the longer the game went on, the less people were able to play on it <- the server must be the slowest machine
09:59<Eddi|zuHause3>the slower the server, the bigger the chance that the clients can keep up
10:00<Ailure>that's how some online games works actually
10:00<Ailure>the game slows down to the slowest computer
10:00<+glx>that way the game is laggy for clients, but they can still play
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10:55<MarkSlap>Where the f*ck is Bjarni? :D
10:56<MarkSlap>He didn't like that I talked about drugs (Especilly acid) :>
10:56<TrueBrain>I am seriously not interested in his fucking or not
11:00<TrueBrain>yeah, that was what I was thinking
11:00<MarkSlap>I dont understand it, so sure :>
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause3>see, that is because of the drugs
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11:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11371 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1396]: the industry protection only kicked in when it should not kick in.
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11:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11372 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1394]: don't stop on first invalid cargo type when displaying industry acceptance
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11:45<yorick>!seen dihedral
11:45<_42_>yorick, dihedral ( was last seen quitting #openttdcoop 6 hours 11 minutes ago (03.11. 09:34) stating "Remote host closed the connection" after spending 10 minutes there.
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12:07<TrueBrain>want to see something really cool?
12:08<TrueBrain>just don't get too close to the border, it fucks things up ;)
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12:33<Ailure>I'm trying to figure out what that does
12:33<valhallasw>TrueBrain: it's not loading? :(
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12:34<Phazorx>it makes a nice tile map
12:34<skidd13>Hi folks
12:34<Phazorx>which you can scroll
12:34<Ailure>ah now it loans
12:34<Ailure>eh loads
12:34<Ailure>probably just strained
12:34<Ailure>very slow loading
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12:41<SpComb>very slow
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12:57<TrueBrain>it should really be pretty fast
12:57<TrueBrain>just it requires a lot of a browser :p
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13:00<Gonozal_VIII>still loading
13:01<Gonozal_VIII>what am i loading there?^^
13:01<SpComb>TrueBrain: it's not working
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13:01<Gonozal_VIII>well, the loading has stopped
13:02[~]Phazorx used opera and did not have issues, it loads pretty fast
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13:03<Gonozal_VIII>ff doesn't
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13:04<SpComb>I mean, it's not loading, at all
13:05<Gonozal_VIII>is it supposed to be a blank page?
13:05<fjb>Did anything break newindustries after r11362?
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>didn't see any problems with ecs
13:06<TrueBrain>SpComb: it was stuck :p Try again :)
13:06<MarkSlap>AND NOW the acid has been kicked in
13:07<Gonozal_VIII>there's a part on the left side that looks funny
13:07<fjb>Hm, when I create a new game in r11367 or 11370, then the ECS factory, ECS textile factory and the ECS vehicle factory don't accept anything.
13:08<Gonozal_VIII>do you have the new grf?
13:08<Gonozal_VIII>2 days old or something
13:09<fjb>Yes, the new machinery vector
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>those buildings changed a lot
13:09<SpComb>TrueBrain: now it's managed to load itself, but the frame thing isn't loading
13:09<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, the page is very screwy in konqueror
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>but they work with me
13:09<fjb>And all ECS grfs loaded in id order.
13:09<TrueBrain>SpComb: enable JavaScript ;)
13:09<SpComb>I have it enabled
13:09<TrueBrain>and it needs to load a 100 KiB library(prototype)
13:09<TrueBrain>that might take a while...
13:09<SpComb>it just says "Loading..."
13:09<SpComb>for a minute or so now
13:09<TrueBrain>hit reload ;)
13:10<SpComb>right, now I managed to get it
13:10<SpComb>yay mouse-draggable map
13:11<SpComb>uh oh, I scrolled to the edge of the map :(
13:11<TrueBrain>don't :p
13:11<TrueBrain>I need to fix that :)
13:11<TrueBrain>hit F5 :
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, i should not scroll too fast
13:12<TrueBrain>why not?
13:12<Gonozal_VIII>i have some white tiles now
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>where "fast" is not the right description
13:12<SpComb>does it do a request for every tile or something?
13:12<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: don't go near the border ;)
13:12<TrueBrain>SpComb: no, per line
13:12<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't
13:12<TrueBrain>so 40 tiles at once
13:12<Gonozal_VIII>they are in the middle
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>TrueBrain: when i move, the next row of tiles is flat first, and only slowly builds up to the real heights
13:12<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: that happens, an update failed
13:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: yup
13:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: see it as fast moving in Google Maps
13:13<TrueBrain>you first get a grey sprite
13:13<Gonozal_VIII>no new request for those tiles?
13:13<TrueBrain>then it loads the real thing
13:13<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: not yet, no
13:13<TrueBrain>the code is there already, just didn't finished it yet :p
13:14<TrueBrain>it is just a first version ;)
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>TrueBrain: occasionally, i get a white row instead of a row of flat tiles
13:15<SpComb>but nice
13:15<Gonozal_VIII>and for stupid people like me... what's different to ingame? is that 3d?
13:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: only looks that way: the flat tiles are on height 0, and you look at a hill, so it appears white, as you look into the hill
13:15<TrueBrain>the flat tiles are there :p
13:16<Eddi|zuHause3>it looks quite disturbing though
13:16<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause3: shit happens ;) It will update itself in the end... when ever I finish that part :p
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>i don't really understand what it does but looks nice^^
13:22<fjb>Can anybody reproduce it? Some ECS factories don't accept anything when the game got createt in r11367 or r11370. If the game got created with r11362 they accept the the usual things, even when the save gets loaded into r11367.
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i started the last game with 64..
13:22<Wolf01>TrueBrain, how i can set up an eggdrop to reply on some commands (and how to add them) in chan instead of dcc chat only, like !seen !logs etc
13:22<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Can you create a new game and see what happens?
13:22<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: What happened?
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>the industry says it accepts but the stations don't
13:22<Wolf01>too muck material on industry stockpile
13:22<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Click on the Industry with the questionmark. No tile accepts anything.
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>new game, empty
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13:23<Gonozal_VIII>seems he forgot to place the tiles that accept stuff
13:24<fjb>Yes, but it works with the same ECS grfs in r11362 .
13:24<TrueBrain>Wolf01: dunno, it was too long ago for me
13:24<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: it is a TT landscape in a webbrowser ;)
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't have much time to play the last days, i enjoyed the new looks of those industries and that they seemed to have new stockpiling ability but did not actually play with that
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>so i don't know if it was broken before or not
13:27<fjb>The new industries are great. And the are working for me when the game got created in r11362.
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13:28<fjb>Belugas: ?
13:29[~]TrueBrain is happy with his scrollable map :)
13:29<fjb>TrueBrain: Can you give me the URL of your new masterpiece please?
13:31<fjb>YOu enhanced it from a few days ago?
13:31<TrueBrain>rewrite from scratch, to be exact
13:32<TrueBrain>bah, it is stuck again...
13:32[~]TrueBrain restarts the server... I have to find out what is causing the lockups...
13:32<Gonozal_VIII>that's really nice and such truelight but isn't that feature in the game since, like... 12 years?
13:33<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: there is kind of a big difference between a standalone GUI and a webbrowser
13:33<TrueBrain>fjb: you can now clck on the map, and drag around
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13:34<Gonozal_VIII><-- too n00b to understand that
13:34<fjb>Better than the arrows.
13:34<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: basicly, this allows you to use any browsers anywhere in the world to login to this virtual world
13:35<TrueBrain>no need to download, and things like 'max clients' is kind of different ;)
13:36<Gonozal_VIII>soooooo you could make something like a 64k^2 map with 1k players at the same time?
13:36<TrueBrain>it is a proof-of-concept of mine, to show that it is possible to do
13:36<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: for example, yes
13:36<TrueBrain>AttributeError: 'HTTPConnection' object has no attribute 'rfile' <- lol, nice crash...
13:36<TrueBrain>clearly the server has some stability issues :)
13:37<fjb>Earthquake. :-)
13:39<Gonozal_VIII>openttd the browsergame :D
13:39<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: if you check the time in which the pages are generated, and know a thing or 2 about dynamic pages, you will see that it is VERY fast; it is a combination of several modern techniques, to show nowedays it can be done to serve over a 1000 clients, while having a real-time game running, via a webbrowser
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13:45<fjb>r11364 is already broken...
13:46<Gonozal_VIII>buuut in a real game you often need more than just a small part of the map
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13:49<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: only the server does ;)
13:49<Gonozal_VIII>well... i have work to do... java coding... lalala.. n00b anyways
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13:50<fjb>Oh, ECS is not broken, the newly generated industried just need some days till the accept anything. But that is the case only with some industries.
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13:58<fjb>Does the generatet landscape in TTDP look that different from a landscape in OpenTTD?
14:02<TrueBrain>not if you use the old landscape generator ;0
14:02<TrueBrain>(in both versions)
14:03<Ailure>the old landscapes
14:03<Ailure>so wierdly looking
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14:26<skidd13>Hi again folks
14:28<fjb>Moin skidd13
14:28<fjb>How does a landscape look like that got generated by the old generator?
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14:30<skidd13>fjb: try yourself and compare :P
14:30<Eddi|zuHause3>in TTO, landscapes were just very few basic hill layouts that were assembled to a map
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know how far that changed in TTD
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14:33<fjb>Oh, the world looks strage now, but ECS industries get a lot faster placed. :-)
14:36<fjb>The new landscapes are looking much better. Hope we get rivers one day.
14:37<hylje>sealevel stuff will get there
14:37<hylje>or its successor
14:38<fjb>That means tunels uder the sea?
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>chrisin has that
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>but it sounds fancier than it is.. long tunnels are not very usefull anyways
14:40<fjb>ChrisIN gets really slow at the end of the game, and my computer is not thar slow (Athlon64 @ 2GHz).
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>well... the last games we played were 256^2 that runs fast...
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14:42<Gonozal_VIII>with ecs that is enough for long hours of connecting all the industries
14:43<MarkSlap>What is #openttdcoop?
14:43<hylje>cooperative openttd
14:43<Gonozal_VIII>exactly what it sounds like
14:43<fjb>256² is too small for realistic trains...
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>realistic trains are?
14:44<hylje>more than 256 tiles long
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14:44<fjb>More than 10 tiles long.
14:45<fjb>And it's not realistic that one station touches the next one.
14:45<Gonozal_VIII>well... where i live i hardly ever see a train with more than 5 waggons
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14:46<fjb>You didn't see real coal trains then. Goods trains ususlly have more than 100 axles.
14:48<Gonozal_VIII>they don't send many freight trains here, it's a small line
14:48<MarkSlap>hylje and Gonozal_VIII :o
14:48<hylje>:o :o :o
14:48<MarkSlap>Ist in text or?
14:48<fjb>Only small trains on small lines of course, but it is different on the main lines.
14:49<Gonozal_VIII>mostly passenger trains with three wagons and a driver thingy at the back so they don't have to turn around
14:49<hylje>no multiple unit stuff?
14:49<Tefad>landscape in old generator is a bunch of random rectangles
14:50<fjb>On a small line you will hardly ever see that.
14:50<Tefad>landscape in new generator looks like random gauss turned into heightmap.
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14:51<Tefad>where i live trains have hundreds of cars
14:51<lws1984>Anyone here having issues with OpenTTD and OS X 10.5?
14:51<Tefad>and three or more engines
14:51<Eddi|zuHause3><hylje> no multiple unit stuff? <- i have never seen any term closely resembling "multiple unit" being used in german train vocabulary
14:51<Tefad>and they usually have a bunch of tractor trailers and or shipping containers
14:52<hylje>what do you call those complete trains then?
14:52<Tefad>regular trains?
14:52<fjb>Trains? :-)
14:52<hylje>as opposed to loco-wagons
14:52<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you have the term "Triebwagen"
14:52<Tefad>i don't see much raw materials on the lines around here, except coal
14:53<Eddi|zuHause3>which means a self driving wagon
14:53<Eddi|zuHause3>occasionally "Schienenbus" (=railcar?)
14:53|-|Sacro` [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:53<Gonozal_VIII>they sometimes use very overpowered engines here... "taurus" pulling 3 passenger cars and such
14:54<hylje>isnt "taurus" a maglev loco in ttd?
14:54<Tefad>they have interesting cars that hold tall objects (i've never seen one loaded) with warning label "do not unload one side all at once"
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14:54<Gonozal_VIII>it's the strongest electric engine in the dbset
14:56<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje: anyway, a distinction between single self driving units and multiple self driving units is kinda artificial in my eyes
14:56<Gonozal_VIII>BR 182 :-)
14:57<lws1984>Belugas? (If I remember correctly, you're the resident Mac expert)
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>182? i don't remember that one, when does it come out?
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14:59<Gonozal_VIII>i use them on almost every train in the late game
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i think i never really did a late game
15:01<Gonozal_VIII>a game is so short without daylength patch...
15:01<skidd13>lws1984: IIRC it's Bjarni not Belugas :D
15:02<Sacro>yes, Belugas is the residient diving canadian
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15:09<Gonozal_VIII>i used to play with 14 part trains, just because that station lenght was easy to build, later i just disabled very long trains and made them old max length
15:09<lws1984>skidd13: ah, thanks.
15:09<lws1984>and bjarni isn't here. :(
15:10<Tefad>laylength patch?
15:10<Tefad>er day.
15:10<lws1984>!seen Bjarni
15:10<_42_>lws1984, Bjarni ( was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 2 days 17 hours 33 minutes ago (01.11. 01:36) stating "Quit: zzz" after spending 4 hours 16 minutes there.
15:10<Gonozal_VIII>more ticks per day
15:10<Eddi|zuHause3>increase the length of days, so you can play longer in a certain era (like steam)
15:11<Tefad>is this in svn?
15:11<Ailure>what I like the idea with something like the daylength patch
15:11<Ailure>is that it would allow a game to go on for a month
15:11<Ailure>so you can like, play once a hour or something heh
15:11<Gonozal_VIII>max factor is 30
15:11<Eddi|zuHause3>well, there are some disputes about the actual effect of the patch
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>i think that's somewhere around a minute per day... 66 seconds or something
15:12<Ailure>I noticed
15:12<Ailure>there's been severeal versions
15:12<Tefad>does this affect vehicle speeds?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause3>one type wants to simply make the game slower (industrial development, train speeds, payment rates)
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>breakdowns are not affected
15:12<Tefad>breakdowns piss me off, i generally disable them : x
15:12<Eddi|zuHause3>and the other type simply wants the same game with slower advancing dates
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>the current patch achieves the second version
15:13<Tefad>no matter how many depots i have, they always manage to block in important route for an extended time period.
15:13<Ailure>I would prefer the game slower heh
15:13<Tefad>an, not in.
15:13<Ailure>which would mean you could spend a bit on building a network
15:13<Ailure>then leave for a few hours and come back
15:14<Ailure>without people having catched up too much :p
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i would prefer that also, but i could not really convince any of the different coders that previously attempted a daylength patch
15:14<Tefad>aww i kind of liked pre-r11366 behavior
15:14<Tefad>it was amusing ; )
15:14<Ailure>sounds like something I would code in
15:14<Ailure>could always like
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15:15<Ailure>make income the same, but costs multiplied by the daylength multiplier
15:15<Eddi|zuHause3>well, the difficulty in this is finding a system as to which game rules should be tick-based (keep current speed) or day-based (make slower)
15:16<Ailure>or at least tweaked so a train would make as much money in 1 year on 1x setting compared to 1 year on 30x setting
15:16<Ailure>the game is pretty much tick-based too
15:16<Ailure>and some things should stay that way too
15:17<Ailure>such as the movement of vehicles
15:17<gono_ping_timeout>30 times slower ships^^
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15:17<Ailure>otherwise it would look ridicolus at 30x
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>well, Celestar said he would put something like that into the game balance branch, but then he dropped out
15:17<Ailure>with a maglev train going 20 km/h
15:18<Ailure>It's something I would want, since it might improve multiplayer
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>well, there it gets difficult, if you don't want to modify speed, this means a train arrives 30 times as often on 30x daylength
15:19<Ailure>that's not a problem in itself
15:19<Ailure>but balancing it is
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15:19<gono_ping_timeout>it also has 30 times more running cost
15:19<Ailure>and same for industry logic
15:20<Ailure>I dunno
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>gono_ping_timeout: which is stupid, because running costs are supposed to be year based
15:20<Ailure>it's running cost should be less in terms of ticks
15:20<Ailure>but the same in terms of ingame days
15:20<gono_ping_timeout>well but they are in chrisin
15:20|-|gono_ping_timeout changed nick to Gonozal_VIII
15:20<Ailure>I think that's a daylength patch
15:20<Ailure>where the economy isn't really affected
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: which is exactly the problem
15:21<Ailure>in terms of ticks
15:21<Gonozal_VIII>they are year based, the values are 30 times higher
15:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: which is again exactly the problem
15:22<Ailure>what we kind of want
15:22<Ailure>is that a train on the same route, with same engine
15:22<Ailure>should earn as much on 1x setting as on 30x setting
15:22<Ailure>over a year
15:22<Eddi|zuHause3>the value should stay constant independent on daylength, because it is running cost per year, and the vehicleset designers chose them for a realistic aspect
15:22<Ailure>without the vehicle being slowed down
15:23<Gonozal_VIII>then let the industries produce the same ammount, not 30 times more, then the train can only make one tour :-)
15:23<Eddi|zuHause3>it is totally stupid if a vehicle costs 3 times more to run for a year than to buy
15:25<Tefad>how hard would it be to just lengthen a tick
15:25<Tefad>to slow the whole thing down
15:25<Eddi|zuHause3>Tefad: this is not wanted, because the trains should still (visibly) move at the same speed
15:25<Tefad>i know there's the ">>" button which is like simcity african swallow
15:25<Tefad>do the opposite of that
15:26<Tefad>opposite..converse whatever
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>Tefad: this is easy, just turn on YAPF for ships ;)
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>or better, NPF ;)
15:26<Tefad>there's a bunch of off-by-one problems in gui window placement btw
15:26<Tefad>unless it's intentional
15:27<Tefad>for some reason, when there's a 1px gap in gui elements, my cpu cycles go way up
15:28<Tefad>(1px is example, i'm guessing it occurs when there's any gap)
15:28<Tefad>does anyone else have this same observation?
15:29<hylje>probably something with the way its drawn
15:31<Tefad>it's off by two actually
15:31<Tefad>it's the vehicle window placement
15:31<Tefad>hell window placement in general seems pretty hosec
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, funny, i have 3 recordings of reruns of the same show distributed over a year, each with two commercial breaks, the first commercial break is always at the same spot, and the second break always at a different spot...
15:32<hylje>how astonishing
15:34<Gonozal_VIII>... why would somebody analyse that?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i want to cut the 3 different airings into one recording that does not have any interruptions
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>you only need one to do that?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause3>not for the "popup" stuff
15:36<Eddi|zuHause3>which is often accompanied by a loud noise
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>that sucks...
15:37<Gonozal_VIII>i hate that kind of commercial
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15:38<Gonozal_VIII>at least sometimes there are good films in austrian tv... free of commercials... but only sometimes
15:40<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it's technically not a commercial, there are 3 kinds of "popups", one is the show name after each commercial break, or the name of the next show, one is a popup like "buy DVDs of this show on [blah]" or "get this melody as ringtone" and the most annoying kind is preview popups like "series XY starts tonight at 20:15"
15:42|-|Arpad [] has joined #openttd
15:42<Eddi|zuHause3>although i did notice that the 3rd kind reduced over the past few months
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>there were times where you got two of these in every 1h show
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>sometimes announcing shows a week in advance
15:44<Eddi|zuHause3>meaning you got to see the same stupid interruption with the same loud noise over the course of one week
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause3>now it's only occasionally, when a "big event" is upcoming
15:46<Eddi|zuHause3>on the other hand, the second kind used to be without noise, but now they added a "beep"
15:46<Gonozal_VIII>you really pay a lot of attention to those commercials...
15:47<Gonozal_VIII>i watch lots of german tv stations but i have no idea what you're talking about^^
15:48<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you usually do not pay attention when watching a live show
15:48<Eddi|zuHause3>but when you have recordings, especially different recordings of the same show in parallel, you easily notice that stuff
15:52<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: clearly someone notices when he wants to watch a show, but the whole picture is rotating because they are doing an announcement that spiderman is playing next sunday
15:57<Eddi|zuHause3>which is even more annoying if that announced spiderman airing was over a year ago
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16:05<Ailure>it's even more weird when you have downloaded it over internet
16:05<Ailure>and live in a way diffrent country
16:05<hylje>one kinda expects that
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16:11<Rubidium>lws1984: I wouldn't expect much "help" from Bjarni as he kinda refuses to install Leopard on his system.
16:11<lws1984>Rubidium: oh?
16:11|-|BJH2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11[~]lws1984 is using it in Parallels anyway, so no matter
16:12<Rubidium>fjb: you say ECS starts behaving wrongly between r11362 and r11364?
16:12<Gonozal_VIII> :D
16:13<Gonozal_VIII>no it was only some kind of construction state thingy
16:14<Gonozal_VIII>[18:50:21] fjb: Oh, ECS is not broken, the newly generated industried just need some days till the accept anything. But that is the case only with some industries.
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16:22<fjb>Yes, I just didn't notice that behavior before. But george confirmed that that can happen, so no fault of OpenTTD, just a bit confusing.
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16:33<Phazorx>is it possible to calculate "proper income" knowing current and starting year with inflation being on ?
16:33<Phazorx>is there a formula somewhere how inflation is calculated?
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause3>from a theoretical point of view, inflation is a geometric series
16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>assuming constant inflation rate q, the effective price after n years is p*(1+q+q^2+q^3+...+q^n)
16:36|-|Grey [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>you can expand this sum to (1-q^(n+1))/(1-q)
16:37<Gonozal_VIII>that's why i always play with inflation off... too much math
16:38<UnderBuilder>we should introduce a campaign for increasing the amount of nightly game servers
16:38<Eddi|zuHause3>note, if the inflation rate is 3%, q=1.03
16:41|-|lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
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16:41|-|John changed nick to lolman
16:45<hylje>i lolman
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i tarzan
16:49<Sacro>i robot
16:50<Diabolic-Angel>i pod
16:50<lws1984>i poo'd
16:51<hylje>this is very silly
16:51<Gonozal_VIII>i silly
16:53<lws1984>i ƒail
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16:53|-|lolman changed nick to John
16:53|-|John changed nick to lolman
16:54|-|lolman changed nick to John
16:54|-|John changed nick to lolman
16:57<hylje>John "lolman" Doe
16:57<MarkSlap>Exactly :>
16:58<Sacro>Bjarni named him
16:59<Gonozal_VIII>wasn't there something with 89?
16:59<Sacro>@Seen JohnUK89
16:59<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen JohnUK89.
17:00<Gonozal_VIII>wow, my brain works
17:03<TrueBrain>we really need a better patch-tracker...
17:04<hylje>think i could take up mine again
17:04<TrueBrain>Sacro: sucks even worse
17:04<TrueBrain>hylje: please do
17:05<hylje>ill see to it, no promises though :(
17:05<TrueBrain>tnx anyway :)
17:05<Gonozal_VIII>what about a forum section where every patch has a topic and no other topics are allowed?
17:06<Sacro>dev froum?
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>ttd forum :-)
17:06<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: not useful either
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>tt forum..
17:06<TrueBrain>what I miss is to see if I replied to a patch
17:06<TrueBrain>and if there is a new version
17:07<TrueBrain>what hylje designed, on my draft (:p), is a system to do that, even allowing you to mark when a comment is done
17:07<Gonozal_VIII>ok :-)
17:11<TrueBrain>maybe a maillist like ffmpeg
17:11<TrueBrain>that is pretty useful
17:12<TrueBrain>I liked it on ffmpeg, although a lot is coming through
17:12<TrueBrain>but it was simple, as developer you could see really fast what had a reply and what not..
17:12<TrueBrain>downside is that patches tend to get lost when not applied fast
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17:16<TrueBrain>hi skidd13
17:16<skidd13>Hi Brain
17:16<hylje>hi both
17:17<skidd13>Does anyone can tell me something about the performance of _ffb_64[...]?
17:17<TrueBrain>not a single thing
17:17<TrueBrain>not even what it does :)
17:18|-|lws1984 [] has quit [Quit: BRB]
17:19<skidd13>TrueBrain: It' used in the KillFirstBit and FindFirstBit functions.
17:19<TrueBrain>ah, those things
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17:27<skidd13>TrueBrain: A profiling session with only one compiler is not representative IMO. There should be tests with the common compilers (windows, linux, OS X).
17:27<TrueBrain>skidd13: agree'd. But a profile of one compiler really is a good start ;)
17:27<TrueBrain>hi ludde
17:27<TrueBrain>what brings you here? :)
17:27<TrueBrain>(in other words: nice to see you1)
17:27<ludde>i just felt like coming by and saying hello
17:28<TrueBrain>well: hello back to you :)
17:28<TrueBrain>how are you these days?
17:28<hylje>oh, its ludde
17:28<skidd13>TrueBrain: what profiling tool do you suggest?
17:28<Tefad>howdy ludde
17:28<TrueBrain>skidd13: I always use gprof, but any will do I guess
17:29<ludde>i'm good, now that I quit utorrent I work with Spotify instead.
17:29<ludde>it's not released yet, but it's a music player
17:30<TrueBrain>as always, lightweight ;) Not bad!
17:30<skidd13>looks nice!
17:30<ludde>the exe is <1MB :)
17:30<Tefad>so bascially itunes replacement?
17:30<TrueBrain>Good old ludde :)
17:31<ludde>you don't play mp3 from your disk. but from a central server
17:31<Tefad>only mp3?
17:31<ludde>so you can find any song and play it instantly
17:31<TrueBrain>ludde: and how much is it going to cost? :)
17:31<Tefad>so it's ondemand streaming?
17:31<ludde>well, you don't really care about what format it is.. just click on a song and it starts playing faster than it would if you were using itunes locally :)
17:31<ludde>Tefad: yes
17:32<ludde>TrueBrain: it's free, but then you get ads every 30 mins or so.
17:32<Tefad>ah neat
17:32<TrueBrain>so infinite free music, for some ads?
17:32<Tefad>so basically it's like radio..
17:32<TrueBrain>sounds hard to believe ;)
17:32[~]Smoovious touches the brim of his black hat™ to ludde
17:32<ludde>TrueBrain: :)
17:32<TrueBrain>but would be really nice :)
17:32<Tefad>audio ads or visual ads?
17:32<Smoovious>how ya doin', ludde?
17:33<Tefad>anything that spawns browsers?
17:33<ludde>Tefad: it works just like radio ads
17:33<ludde>Tefad: only if you click the ad
17:33[~]Tefad nods
17:33<ludde>Smoovious: i'm doing well
17:33<ludde>my back still isn't healed thou :(
17:33<Tefad>is it community based or all behind closed doors?
17:33<Smoovious>good to hear
17:34<Tefad>(music source)
17:34<Smoovious>oh that sucks... from the train incident?
17:34<ludde>Tefad: no community
17:34<ludde>Tefad: we do have beta testing though
17:34<Tefad>audio format is arbitrary?
17:34<ludde>Tefad: but only for swedish ppl
17:35<Tefad>or are you guys locked to one codec
17:35<ludde>Tefad: audio format is mp3 right now, but it's not really something the user notices.
17:35<ludde>Tefad: we're looking into switching to some other format.
17:35<TrueBrain>ludde: Windwos only?
17:35<ludde>windows, osx
17:35<TrueBrain>no linux? :(
17:35<TrueBrain>hehe :)
17:35<ludde>not now
17:35<Tefad>if you guys are worried about license fees, i'm sure you know where to look ; )
17:36[~]Smoovious is a truck driver now.
17:36<Tefad>even if this product was available for linux i don't see many linux users that would be interested
17:36<TrueBrain>hmm, now a songs popup into mind... tnx Smoovious :p
17:36<Tefad>except those on ubuntu ; )
17:36<TrueBrain>Tefad: and why would that be?
17:36[~]Smoovious grins at TrueBrain
17:36<Tefad>because many linux users are linux users for a reason
17:37<TrueBrain>talking about music... that I didn't put on today!
17:37<TrueBrain>Tefad: to not listen music?
17:37<TrueBrain>now that is a rather silly statement
17:37|-|DaleStan_ changed nick to DaleStan
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm linux user because windows annoyed me with constant need of rebooting
17:37<Tefad>i'm not trying to start flamewar : \
17:37<Tefad>i listen to plenty of music
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>and i am listening to music all the time
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>like, right now...
17:37<Tefad>however, i stay away from binary blobs as much as i can
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>"blob" means "binary large object", so the "binary" is redundant
17:38<Tefad>blob can also mean goo-like creature
17:38<TrueBrain>Kiss Me! (8)
17:38<Tefad>so i am reduntant on purpose.
17:39<Tefad>also, i can't spell redundant.
17:39<Tefad>moving on : D
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>the german term is "doppelt gemoppelt", but i'm not sure if there is even a close translation
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>pudelhund & spaghettinudel
17:41<skidd13>Eddi|zuHause3: Try latin -> Hendiadyoin
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>that supposed to be latin?
17:42<Tefad>how is y latin
17:42<skidd13>Its rhetoric so latin should be valid for many languages as technical term
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>i have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...
17:43[~]Tefad sighs
17:43<skidd13>Eddi|zuHause3: "doppelt gemoppelt"
17:43<TrueBrain>huma: I have something for you:
17:43<TrueBrain> <- new and improved ;)
17:44<TrueBrain>too bad any higher resolution than 320x200 as TT screen needs.. well.. a beast of a client-machine ;)
17:44<TrueBrain>btw, don't go near edges, it is broken :)
17:44<Gonozal_VIII>still doesn't like the borders ;-)
17:45<skidd13>Eddi|zuHause3: Hendiadyoin is the technical term (in latin) for a thing that is colloquial called "doppelt gemoppelt"
17:45<huma>TrueBrain, is there arctic? :)
17:45<TrueBrain>huma: nope :p Still no arctic :)
17:45<TrueBrain>I was about to add it, but... I found more important things :)
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>what's new?
17:46<skidd13>TrueBrain: WTF you added mouse scroll :O
17:46<huma>what can be more important than that?
17:46<TrueBrain>skidd13: yup :)
17:46<TrueBrain>you like it? :)
17:46<skidd13>:D :D :D
17:46<TrueBrain>as I said long ago: it is just waiting for the time a whole OS comes to you via a browser :p
17:46<huma>webtt :)
17:47<huma>he's serious about it :)
17:47<TrueBrain>if there would be an easy way to add OpenTTD to python via bindings, you could in fact have the game done in several days
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>just put a dos floppy online
17:47<TrueBrain>skidd13: I rest my case ;)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>only problem i have is that in conventional TT you scroll with right mouse button...
17:48<huma>eh, i'm client #5, it doesn't greet me by name :(
17:48<TrueBrain>huma: hehe :)
17:48<TrueBrain>I am more amazed by the performance :)
17:48<TrueBrain>hmm, yet an other crash...
17:48<hylje>python bindings for openttd, ingenious
17:48<TrueBrain>HTTPConnection seems faulty..
17:49<huma>how about the source?
17:49<TrueBrain>skidd13: eyeos is very nicely done :)
17:49<TrueBrain>huma: closed :)
17:49<huma>and the server settings
17:49<huma>at least
17:49<skidd13>TrueBrain: yup
17:50<TrueBrain>haha, a process list :)
17:50<Tefad>what is this project?
17:50<TrueBrain>Tefad: 'this'?
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17:50<Tefad>i'm confused
17:50<Gonozal_VIII>no desyncs and instant join on any mapsize :-)
17:50<TrueBrain>yup, me too :)
17:50<huma>Tefad, it's a webtt - web based openttd game
17:51<huma>TrueBrain promises to finish it next week
17:51<TrueBrain>only in your dreams
17:51<TrueBrain>which reminds me: I don't want to know what you dream about
17:51<Tefad>is it just me or is scrolling absurdly slow
17:51<huma>my christmas vacation :)
17:51<TrueBrain>Tefad: only if your computer can't handle it :)
17:52<TrueBrain>it moves 30 divs every time you scroll
17:52<Tefad>i guess 2.4GHz isn't enough
17:52<TrueBrain>on some computers this is as fast as lightning
17:52<TrueBrain>on others it is dead slow..
17:52<huma>it's quite fast for me
17:52<TrueBrain>linux here
17:53<TrueBrain>so it really is your computer :p
17:53<Phazorx>oh... nice to see ludde here
17:53<skidd13>Tefad: 2.4GHz doesn't mean anything.... Compare a 2.4GHZ sparc with a 2.4GHz intel
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>40 tiles per request? the white lines that appear sometimes are only 20 tiles
17:53<TrueBrain>Gonozal_VIII: yup, non-lineair requests :)
17:53<Tefad>skidd13: heh, no long it does
17:53<Tefad>it used to.. back in the day
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17:53<Tefad>it's hard to gauge performance now : \
17:53<Phazorx>i wonder if anyone noticed a name of global company manager on the wwottdgd game
17:54<huma>damn, why it gives me like 5 alerts about session timeout? :)
17:54<TrueBrain>huma: because that part is pretty unfinihsed :)
17:54<TrueBrain>but it already detects it! That is something ;)
17:55<huma>amnesiac edition? :)
17:55<huma>yes, nice work
17:55<TrueBrain>tnx :) I wonder if I will ever continue on it, but okay :p
17:55<Tefad>i get much better formance in ff under winde than i do with native ff.
17:55[~]huma gives TrueBrain a cookie
17:55<Tefad>performance too
17:56<TrueBrain> :)
17:56<Tefad>and i mean wine
17:56<TrueBrain>Tefad: weird... maybe you installed FF wrong? :p
17:56<Tefad>i compiled it myself if that's what you mean : x
17:56<Gonozal_VIII>openttd as a massive multiplayer browsergame thousands of players on a giant map with a daylength of 24 minutes or something like that^^
17:57<TrueBrain>Tefad: yes
17:57<TrueBrain>I just really wonder what the server can handle... how much concurrent connections and stuff...
17:57<Tefad>i get like 1-2fps in wine-ff
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17:58<TrueBrain>it takes 0.6ms to handle a single client, which happens on scrolling once in the 100ms.. the game logic needs 5ms every 30ms, so that is 150ms every second; a client needs 6ms every second.. that gives..
17:58<TrueBrain>@calc (1000 - 150) / 6
17:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 141.666666667
17:58<TrueBrain>141 clients per server
17:59<TrueBrain>so I guess it won't be a 30ms per tick game ;)
17:59<cybermage>hi guys, Is it possible to disable autosave on running server ?
17:59<Tefad>yeesh, native-ff just sucks completely
17:59<TrueBrain>Tefad: install the pre-built binary
18:00<Tefad>argh message bombed in opera
18:00<Tefad>java script errors one after the other.
18:00<TrueBrain>what kind of errors?
18:00<Tefad>session timeout
18:00<TrueBrain>reload ;)
18:01<TrueBrain>server had a hick-up, so needed a restart
18:01<TrueBrain>hmm, and again..
18:02<huma>what caused it?
18:02<TrueBrain>dunno... something hits an infinite loop, so it seems
18:03<TrueBrain>I use stackless python, and some custom http servers.. not really tested ;)
18:03<Sacro>hmm, this spotify looks cool
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18:03<huma>yea, i wrote a neat xsl once that kept crashing websphere :)
18:04<TrueBrain>making things crash is easy... keeping things from crashing on the other hand...
18:04<TrueBrain>but okay, byebye server :) Showtime over ;)
18:04<huma>crash is an art too
18:04<Tefad>cannot connect
18:05<hylje>stackless silently crashes on deadlocks
18:05<TrueBrain>hylje: I don't make deadlocks ;)
18:05<huma>maybe i should try jwebtt :)
18:06<TrueBrain>feel free :)
18:06<TrueBrain>let me know if you can get the same performance (Server-wise)
18:07<huma>and there won't be green fields :)
18:07<TrueBrain>not unexpected ;)
18:07<TrueBrain>arctic lover
18:08<Tefad>arctic is too bright for me
18:08<TrueBrain>to dead for me
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18:08<Tefad>it'd be fun to see the night-time set cover everything
18:08<TrueBrain>extend it ;)
18:08<huma>it's nice and crispy :)
18:09<huma>there's a patch for that
18:09<huma>i've seen somewhere
18:09<Tefad>i'm not fond of convoluted graphics systems and limited palette art *shrug*
18:09<Tefad>nor do i claim to be a great artist
18:09<Gonozal_VIII>there's a monitor setting for that, it's called gamma :-)
18:09<Tefad>i'd be more interested in implimenting a better AI
18:10<TrueBrain>Tefad: so, load up NoAI
18:10<Tefad>no idea what that is
18:10<hylje>a branch
18:10<TrueBrain>you are intersted in AIs, and don't know NoAI?
18:10<TrueBrain>bad :)
18:10<Tefad>is it in cvs?
18:10<Tefad>er svn
18:12<Tefad>wtf squirrel
18:12<TrueBrain>a script language
18:12<TrueBrain>very simular to C++
18:12<Tefad>so it's a competitor to LUA
18:13<TrueBrain>it is an addition to it :)
18:13<TrueBrain>(lua doesn't have objects, Squirrel does)
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>yay objects
18:14<Tefad>objects != lightweight
18:14[~]Tefad sighs
18:14<TrueBrain>it is in Squirrel's case
18:14|-|jonty-comp [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
18:14<TrueBrain>as 'objects != lightweight' is NOT by default true
18:14<Sacro>there is no sunos_sparc build :(
18:14<Tefad>assembly is lightweight ; )
18:14<TrueBrain>Sacro: give me the binaries and I make it for you :)
18:15<TrueBrain>Tefad: depends very much on your point of view
18:15<Sacro>the binaries?
18:15<Tefad>zero overhead.
18:15<TrueBrain>Tefad: I see you porting TTDp to linux?
18:15<TrueBrain>means writing a virtual machine... there your 'zero overhead' goes ;)
18:15<TrueBrain>Sacro: I need files from a sunos sparc
18:15<Sacro>Tefad: which files?
18:15<TrueBrain>files like that
18:15<Sacro>i need to boot mine
18:15<Tefad>what the
18:15<Sacro>but i need a converter cable
18:15<Tefad>who what
18:15<Sacro>13W3 to VGA
18:16<Tefad>i have such a cable
18:16<Tefad>however, my sparc has VGA
18:16<Tefad>and also doesn't post : \
18:16<Tefad>my alpha almost posts, then fails it.
18:16<TrueBrain>Sacro: I also still need someone who has a 64bit sunos
18:16<Sacro>i have 64bit solaris
18:16<Tefad>isn't sunos rather dated?
18:16<cybermage>TrueBrain: virtualization ?
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18:17<TrueBrain>as the compiler for it is there, but I need certain OS specific files to get the compile-farm to work ;)
18:17<TrueBrain>cybermage: que?
18:17<Tefad>last i checked virtualization isn't too heavy.. but that wasn't my point
18:17<Sacro>Tefad: well my sparcstation only has 2*40Mhz
18:17<cybermage>TrueBrain: If you have 64b processor, you can run virtualized enviroment :)
18:17<Sacro>and 96MB RAM
18:17<Sacro>it needs a dated OS
18:17<Tefad>modern computers "virtualize" into uops anyway
18:18<Tefad>hmm my sparc is a few hundred MHz
18:18<TrueBrain>Tefad: and my point was, that lightweighted is _very_ subjective :)
18:18<Tefad>smalltalk ftw? ; )
18:18<TrueBrain>rathr bullshit
18:18<TrueBrain>(I seem to be randomly dropping letters...)
18:19<TrueBrain>might be the packet-loss :p
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18:19<Tefad>some bf derivative?
18:19<Tefad>i like the binary bf derivative
18:19<Tefad>two commands.
18:19<hylje>let me implement bf in python
18:20<TrueBrain> <- I still love thisone
18:21<TrueBrain> <- there os no language!
18:21<TrueBrain>but my personal best:
18:21<TrueBrain>I once tried to write a program in it
18:21<TrueBrain>but.. I failed :p
18:22<TrueBrain>(and not many languages I failed to write in :p)
18:22<ludde>TrueBrain: my work mate is co author of shakespearelang
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18:23<TrueBrain>ludde: then I have great respect for him :)
18:23<TrueBrain>as I couldn't make anything out of it :)
18:23<TrueBrain>it is briliant!
18:23<TrueBrain>(and no, Bjarni, not you)
18:23<@Bjarni>hi ludde
18:23<TrueBrain>(I knew you wanted to say something like that, so I thought, let's beat him too it)
18:23<@Bjarni>nice to see you again
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18:28<skidd13>Bjarni: As you are the man for OS X may I recruit you for some profiling? -> FS1392
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18:31<@Bjarni>skidd13: shouldn't this produce the same executable code?
18:31<@Bjarni>but then again I guess you want me to verify that it actually does that :)
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18:33<@Bjarni>no I will not read ASM to ensure that it produces the very same code
18:33<@Bjarni>and odds are that md5 wouldn't do the trick either
18:33<@Bjarni>though that could be interesting to try... then it really would be the same code and no need to test
18:34<skidd13>Bjarni: It hopefully should not. My hope is that the compilers will do a better job with the inline stuff instead of the defines.
18:34<@Bjarni>but somehow I don't think that will happen
18:34<TrueBrain>Bjarni: don't worr,y I am 100% sure the asm will be different
18:34<skidd13>Bjarni: I just want to know if there is any difference in performance.
18:34<TrueBrain>what we need to know, if there is a noticable speed difference
18:35[~]Bjarni prepares for some testing
18:35<@Bjarni>aka freeing up CPU time
18:36[~]dihedral greets TB
18:36<dihedral>and skidd13 of course too
18:37<skidd13>Hi dihedral
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18:37<@Bjarni>how to test this in the best way...
18:38<@Bjarni>so far I did profiling to learn how much CPU time the different functions use compared to each other and TIC/TOC for actual function speed
18:38<@Bjarni>but TIC/TOC has to be used at the correct location in the code :/
18:40<@Bjarni>so how should this be tested to get the best results...
18:40<@Bjarni>best as in: best info, not fastest ;)
18:42<skidd13>@seen Smatz
18:42<@DorpsGek>skidd13: Smatz was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <SmatZ> hmm yes, µ is not in unifont.rf
18:42<TrueBrain> if (addr[0] == 0xE9) { // 0xE9 == jmp
18:42<TrueBrain> addr[0] = 0xE8; // 0xE8 == call
18:42<TrueBrain>I love things that work :)
18:43<Tefad>so jmp and call are the same thing in this vm?
18:43<TrueBrain>haha :)
18:43<Tefad>the GRF thing ; )
18:43<TrueBrain>that is no code from any vm
18:43<TrueBrain>this is code from a dlopen for windows :)
18:43<TrueBrain>it inverts an optimization of a compiler :)
18:43<TrueBrain>dlopen, as in: dynamic library loader
18:43<TrueBrain>but not in dll, as this supports lazy binding
18:43[~]Tefad confused and shuts up : D
18:44<hylje>dynamic libraries are horrible hacks
18:44<hylje>but they tend to work..
18:44<@Bjarni>except when they don't and then it's really a pain to deal with them :(
18:45<Tefad>i've not had to deal with dynamic lib problem in forever
18:45<TrueBrain>Tefad: in *nix world, you can load library without having them to find all the functions right away.. example: I have a lib1 which creates func1(). I have a lib2 which creates func2(). Now lib2 wants to call func1(), and lib1 wants to call func2(). Under linux this is no problem, and works out of the box
18:45<TrueBrain>in windows, via DLLs, you need a bunch of ugly hacks to make it to work, if at all
18:45<Tefad>oh, how nice
18:45<TrueBrain>so, I made a library that works like *nix
18:45<@Bjarni>Tefad: so you haven't had OpenTTD crashing on you with a "lazy pointer not found"?
18:46<Tefad>no crashes
18:46<Tefad>wtf is lazy pointer
18:46<@Bjarni>I fixed that by moving away from SDL
18:46<@Bjarni>it's a pointer
18:46<@Bjarni>it just tries to do as little as possible
18:46<Tefad>thanks captain obvious
18:47<TrueBrain>Tefad: in my example, when you load lib1, the call to func2() doesn't point to anywhere yet
18:47<Sacro>Tefad: he's a dutch mac user
18:47<TrueBrain>when you call it, it looks up where it should point to
18:47<TrueBrain>and calls that
18:47<Sacro>what do you expect
18:47<TrueBrain>this is called a lazy symbol (not a lazy pointer)
18:47<Tefad>ah. a placeholder
18:47<@Bjarni>there is a Dutch mac user in here?
18:47<TrueBrain>in *nix land this is _very_ common
18:47<Tefad>only gets lookedup when it's used
18:47<TrueBrain>in Windows land this is advised against (by MS)
18:47<TrueBrain>basicly: *nix: runtime, MS: compiletime
18:48<Tefad>those lead to problems on my system when i upgrade packages, sometimes there's updates to both and they have circular dependency
18:48<TrueBrain>this also means: *nix: no need to have all the files when compiling, MS: you need all files when compiling ;)
18:48<TrueBrain>euh, yeah, it is not that, but he, what ever :)
18:48<TrueBrain>at least I tried ;)
18:48<Tefad>i know what you're talking about
18:49<Tefad>what i'm saying is similar, at least i think it is
18:49<Tefad>lib1 uses func2 in lib2 while lib2 uses func1 from lib1, yes?
18:49<Tefad>lib1 depends on lib2 and viceversa
18:49<Tefad>assuming neither is installed, how would a package manager know what's up
18:49<Tefad>unless it realizes mutual dependency is ok.
18:49<TrueBrain>in a package system it is slightly different
18:50<TrueBrain>but good enough ;)
18:50<Tefad>in windows land, i dont think i'd be able to compile that at all
18:50<Tefad>in unix land, i think the config script would be confused, but could probably be bootstrapped, eh?
18:50<Tefad>unless you have binaries anyway.
18:50<Tefad>then there's no config script
18:51<Tefad>this problem occurs at compile time in windows land? unless you have a workaround in place
18:51<TrueBrain>Windows requires all the symbols to be known at compile-time
18:51<TrueBrain>Unix doesn't
18:51<TrueBrain>there are workarounds, but they are hard to write
18:52<Tefad>got it
18:52<Tefad>if you can manage create a binary in unix you're fine
18:52<TrueBrain>short: it helps porting Unix -> Windows a lot :)
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18:52<Tefad>totally facetious there yes?
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18:53<Tefad>not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so much for my uptime
18:53<TrueBrain>I don't understand what you try to say, sorry :)
18:54<Tefad>how can being able to find symbols at compile time be in unix but not windows be beneficial to porting unix to windows?
18:54<TrueBrain>Tefad: it isn't. But my library solves tha tproblem ;)
18:54<Tefad>ok, "it" wasn't defined in your sentence : D
18:55<TrueBrain>true :)
18:55<Tefad>i assumed you were referencing the whole concept
18:55<Tefad>not your library.
18:56<hylje>Tefad: i dont think you got the subtlety there.. :p
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18:58<Tefad>hylje: ?
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19:07<skidd13>TrueBrain: I did some profiling and noticed that some functions increase their speed while others loose :(
19:08<TrueBrain>skidd13: hehe
19:09<skidd13>GetTileType +37% Random -18%
19:09<TrueBrain>but Random doesn't use any of your functions, does it?
19:09<skidd13>The ROR and the ROL
19:10<TrueBrain>so, keep the ones that improve
19:10<TrueBrain>revert the others ;)
19:10<skidd13>Maybe there is some space to rewrite the functionality ;)
19:10<skidd13>to increase it even more
19:13<skidd13>But all at all I need input form other testers. IIRC smatz did some huger profiling tests but he sems to be away :(
19:15[~]TrueBrain summons SmatZ
19:16<skidd13>It's quite late. good night and happy profiling ;)
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19:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11373 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1398]: do not even think about building disabled industries.
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19:39<TrueBrain>hylje: I have a request for the patch-review: dev-talk (hidden for all other users)
19:42<Sacro>Rubidium: heh, i can just imagine a motherly figure telling people off
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20:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11374 /trunk/src/ (37 files in 2 dirs):
20:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Give meaning to the magical number that specifies the color of the text in a DrawString call.
20:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Patch heavily based on BiBB's work (FS#1383)
20:12<TrueBrain>BigBB: nice work on the textcolor stuff :)
20:12<BigBB>thank you
20:13<@Belugas>and we all know that BigBB has a lot more stuff to come in trunk ;)
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20:13<@Belugas>even cooperations :D
20:13<Wolf01>TrueBrain what happened to the fast-gui tracker?
20:14<Wolf01>hello Belugas :D
20:14<TrueBrain>Wolf01: it went to Work In Progress, as in no way it is a real patch
20:14<@Belugas>hello Wolf01 :)
20:14<TrueBrain>lol, the patch was too big for it to hit the maillist :)
20:14<Wolf01>ah, ok
20:14<TrueBrain>BigBB: I don't want to know how you found all places ;)
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20:15<Wolf01>oh hello ludde, my only god :D
20:15<BigBB>A good searching program can help a lot :D
20:15<TrueBrain>BigBB: still... changing every single entry with the right value...
20:15<TrueBrain>so, you have my respect :)
20:15<BigBB>thanks :)
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20:16<@Belugas>and mine!
20:16<Wolf01>good work BigBB!
20:17<Wolf01>oh noes BiBB!!! is fake!
20:20|-|michi_cc_ changed nick to michi_cc
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20:28<TrueBrain>night all
20:29<BigBB>gn8 TrueBrain
20:29<@Belugas>sleep[ well all, i'm going to bed too
20:30<Wolf01>(me too)
20:30<Sacro>whats this? a 3some?
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20:36<Rubidium>anybody here familiar with the ECS Machinery vector in TTDP? Especially whether vehicles on the "parking" change colour over time.
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20:45[~]fjb only played OpenTTD yet.
20:48<fjb>Why can waypoints not span multiple lines?
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21:16<Sacro>fjb: because of the way they where implemented
21:16<Sacro>i think it was ludde that did them in the first releases
21:17<fjb>They are not very usefull that way.
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21:29<@Bjarni><fjb> They are not very usefull that way. <-- we know but nobody wanted to start over once we realised this issue
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21:32<Sacro>Bjarni: we should complain to the guy who coded it ;)
21:32<@Bjarni>we already did
21:32<@Bjarni>he didn't want to start over either
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22:19<fjb>Good night
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22:31<Smoovious>could we at least get waypoints in our company color? the text part? :)
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 04 00:00:01 2007