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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-05

---Logopened Mon Nov 05 00:00:39 2007
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05:37<TrueBrain>morning all
05:37<Eddi|zuHause3>you missed the "good" ;)
05:37<TrueBrain>why would it be good?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause3>well, technically, it's monday morning, it can't be good ;)
05:37<TrueBrain>they started redecorating nextdoor
05:37<TrueBrain>at 730 in the morning..
05:38<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm sure that is fun :p
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06:42<mikk36|work>hey :)
06:42<mikk36|work>does UKRS work in desert ?
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06:48<Ammler>mikk36|work: look for UKRS in the sun
06:49<mikk36|work>sun ?
06:49<Ammler>should be available on Pikkas Wikki
06:49<Ammler>yes,its a modded ukrs for tropical
06:49<mikk36|work>a search for pikkas wikki gives me nothing :)
06:49<mikk36|work>aha, pikkawiki
06:50<Ammler>yes
06:50<mikk36|work>and do i have to remove normal ukrs from the gcf list ?
06:52<Ammler>I think so, but you will see it fast ;)
06:52<mikk36|work>hm, ok
06:54<mikk36|work>and what about that "add-ons" grf ?
06:54<Ammler>hmm, should work, I guess
06:55<mikk36|work>what about the parameters for that "in the sun" ?
06:55<mikk36|work>same 0 3 0 ?
06:55<mikk36|work>or just default is enough ?
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06:55<mikk36|work>aha, default is ok :)
06:56<mikk36|work>no more questions then :)
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06:59<Ammler>:)
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07:02<mikk36|work>hmm
07:02<mikk36|work>one problem still remains in the nightly
07:02<mikk36|work>at least in 11368
07:03<mikk36|work>add grf window won't stay in the middle
07:03<mikk36|work>and if i drag the window too small, i can't close it any more
07:03<mikk36|work>cause the x button is not visible any more
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07:23<Ailure>hmm
07:23<Ailure>what's the IP of tt-forums
07:23<Ailure>my DNS is borken
07:24<exe>81.171.98.112
07:24<Ailure>ok, thank you :)
07:26<Ammler>omg
07:29<shodan>!
07:36<mikk36|work>question: why is Available vehicles button greyed out for spectators ?
07:36<Ailure>hmm
07:36<Ailure>and the one for openTTD?
07:36<Ailure>XD
07:36<Ailure>I need to get a alternate DNS at this point
07:36<mikk36|work>or, there is no button at all :P
07:37<mikk36|work>i'd like to see that button though :)
07:37<Ailure>oh
07:37<Ailure>I think that's a coding leftover
07:37<mikk36|work>so i don't have to be a player to see the train elements info etc
07:37<Ailure>from when that was a "create vehicle" button
07:37<Ailure>it was replaced by something
07:37<Ailure>then people wanted it back and it came back as avaible vehicles
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08:19<mst>Hey. I have a problem. I have developed monrail in TTD so I wanted to change old railways to new one. OK - done. But when new train reach one station it is stoped there and have no option to move to another (though plan). What should I do?
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08:20<Ammler>send them to depot -> sell it -> buy on monorail depot a new train
08:21<mst>I did it
08:21<Ammler>ok, well done :)
08:21<mst>I have three station - A, B, C
08:21<mst>Not exactely
08:22<mst>One train: A - B
08:22<mst>Second: A - B - C
08:22<mst>When the first (or second; whatever) reach one station i have to send to depot and then click once again to cancel sending to depot
08:23<mst>It has full passengers onboard and standing there waiting for nothing
08:25<mst>Maybe station should be same length as train? I have no idea... And you?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause3>a station should be longer than the train
08:26<Eddi|zuHause3>for every wagon that sticks out of the station, the loading time increases drastically
08:28<mst>Ok i will try
08:30<mst>Another quest: is in openttd any option to notice me about reliability decrease or i have to manual watch all the trains or trucks?
08:31|-|Diabolic-Angel [~dia@xdsl-84-44-198-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
08:31<Eddi|zuHause3>mst: you can enable the option to automatically service if reliability drops below a certain %
08:31[~]TrueBrain is now a FON member :)
08:31<Eddi|zuHause3>instead of after a certain number of days
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08:45<mst>Eddi|zuHause3 where is it?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause3>in patches -> vehicle section
08:45<Eddi|zuHause3>"service intervals in %"
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09:10<TrueBrain>so there
09:10<TrueBrain>wassup?!
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause3>soylent green is people joining and quitting IRC
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10:10<skidd13>hi folks
10:10<dihedral>hi
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10:11<skidd13>Anyone in here who uses pidgin?
10:11<TrueBrain>pidgin?
10:11<+glx>gaim renamed
10:11[~]dihedral passes
10:12<skidd13>I hate it to authentificate manualy every time
10:12<+glx>I don't use it
10:12<Rubidium>skidd13: bitlbee?
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>no "remember this fucking input next time" button? yeah, i hate such situations, too
10:13<skidd13>Rubidium: I don't want to waste my memory One app for all the messenger stuff is enough
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10:15<TrueBrain>skidd13: I only have IRC ;)
10:16<Rubidium>skidd13: waste memory?
10:17<blathijs>skidd13: Bitlbee will only save you memory :-)
10:17<Rubidium>bitlbee does the same as pidgin/gaim (IIRC). The only difference is that bitlbee fakes an IRC server to which you can connect with your IRC client.
10:17<Rubidium>it also allows you to run it on a server making you always online and able to receive PMs and such.
10:18<dihedral>that sounds nice
10:18<skidd13>somehow I prefer a GUI istead of terminal ;)
10:19<Rubidium>GUIs kinda fail to work with putty/ssh ;)
10:19<skidd13>And pidgin shows hidden ICQ users. I don't want to miss that neat bug/feature/whatever :D
10:19<skidd13>Rubidium: x over ssh?
10:21<Rubidium>kinda unuseable on PCs where you can't install anything.
10:21<skidd13>agreed
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10:27<skidd13>Back again
10:27|-|exe [~dgxczv@pub70089.brzesko.net.pl] has joined #openttd
10:27<skidd13>Is there a command to chgeck if I'm authentificated?
10:28<skidd13>:%s /chgeck/check/
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10:34<skidd13>Any news from SmatZ
10:35<skidd13>?
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10:40<blathijs>skidd13: I think there is a stray space in your vim command :-)
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10:40<blathijs>skidd13: Authenticated against what?
10:42<skidd13>blathijs: Never mind! I found a plugin in the recent two minute which does the job for me now. Damn google... I should have formulated my request better ;)
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11:47<fjb>Moin
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11:52<fjb>Is it just me who is too stupid or can anybody confirm the road vehicles don't find their route in r 11384?
11:53<TrueBrain>fjb: would be funny if they didn't :p
11:53<TrueBrain>show me a savegame :)
11:54<fjb>TrueBrain: Where can I put it to shown you? I don't have web space right now.
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11:55<fjb>The drive in the wrong direction, turn around just ar corner away from theirr destination, etc..
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11:58<skidd13>fjb: I can reproduce it
11:58<fjb>Thank you
11:58<TrueBrain>fjb: yapf?
11:59<fjb>Yes
11:59<skidd13>TrueBrain, Rubidium: Might be the KillBits thing :(
11:59<TrueBrain>I am sure it is :)
11:59<fjb>KillRVs thing. :-)
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12:02<+glx><TrueBrain> I am sure it is :) <-- same for me :)
12:04<fjb>Why do I have to find all the bugs? (Not only in Openttd...)
12:04<skidd13>So the | 0x... is needed for pathfinding?
12:04<skidd13>fjb: Cause it has been late last night ;)
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12:07<TrueBrain>skidd13: more the question is: why
12:07<TrueBrain>we ruled out that it could cause problems, or so we thought :p
12:07<TrueBrain>fjb: do trains still route okay?
12:07<+glx>fjb: because devs can't think of all stupoid things a user can do ;)
12:08<fjb>TrueBrain: I think trains are okay, but I will have a look.
12:08<fjb>:-P
12:09<fjb>>Looks like trains are ok, or my network is too small...
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12:12<fjb>I had some other strange effects with trains in the last days, but it is nothing that I could reproduce. I had trains trying to enter busy platforms at a station, wwhen a free platform was availlable. But that happened already days ago.
12:12<TrueBrain>if it happeened before yesterday, it aint our fault :p
12:13<fjb>Trains still find their way.
12:13<fjb>Yeah, the train thing is older, and I found no way to reproduce it.
12:14<skidd13>Hmm the 0x... value seems not to fix it :(
12:14<fjb>But somebody has to implement new signals anyway, some day...
12:14<Ailure>heh
12:14<Ailure>fun thing about the train pathfinder
12:14<Ailure>if it dosen't find a path between X and Y
12:15<Ailure>it won't try avoid red signals at all
12:15<Ailure>this have caused me a few deadlocks at some terminal stations for me :/
12:16<blathijs>I think it simply chooses random directions if it can't find it's way
12:16<fjb>Ailure: Maybe that is the bug i was talking about.
12:16<Ailure>fjb
12:16<Ailure>I don't think they're related at all
12:16<Ailure>I dunno if I should call it a bug even
12:16<Ailure>since it happens in situations that shouldn't happen in first place anyway
12:17<Ailure>and that the pathfinder (for understandable reasons) don't understand that trains can turn around at end of the line
12:18<fjb>I had trains insiting to go to platforms that were occupied when a free platform was next to them and reachable. But that is unrelated to the road vehicles not finding their way.
12:18<Ailure>yeah heh
12:18<hylje>lol, wut
12:19<Ailure>it caused a deadlock as the train trying to enter the occupied station was surrounded by a one-way signal and a station exit-signal
12:19<Ailure>and the station itself was occupied too
12:19<Ailure>I think I managed to cause a accident crash in a such situation too :)
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12:24<fjb>Is there a way to debug the pathfinder?
12:28<@Belugas>of course, fjb. the sources are there, just compile in debug mode and follow the functions and the flow of the PF
12:29<fjb>Belugas: Thank you. I will try that tmorrow.
12:30<fjb>I have to go now anyway. Have fun hunting bugs. Maybe I will be here again later this avening.
12:30[~]Belugas does not hunt bugs. He can barely type...
12:31<fjb>:-)
12:31<fjb>Bye
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12:42<ln->what does a cheapish flight to the USA cost?
12:42<ln->a return flight
12:43<@Belugas>the price of a car gaz tank for me ;)
12:44<ln->invalid answer :)
12:44<skidd13>ln-: Oneway nothing: Call the CIA and tell them someting ;)
12:46<@Belugas>but, ln-, may i point out that your question by itself is totally invalid either?
12:46<@Belugas>it lacks the point of origin :P
12:47<skidd13>ln-: try google -> http://www.e-flights.de/index.php?katid=188&lang=en
12:47<@Belugas>so, for sure, a ticket bough in australia does not cost the same as one from Great Britain ^_^
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12:48<ln->Belugas: virtually everyone is from europe
12:49<ln->skidd13: that doesn't tell me what's the optimal starting point in europe for cheap flights.
12:50<TrueBrain>there you go skidd13 :)
12:50<skidd13>ln-: define cheap! Cause you need to add the costs for driving there too ;)
12:50[~]Belugas is not from europ, altough born there, but that's beside he point...
12:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11385 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix r11383: bool operation can be hard to translate for some people ;) (tnx fjb for noticing this bug ;))
12:50<@Belugas>there are more non-europeans than you think in here :D
12:51<ln->skidd13: cheap := cheap if we assume one could get to the starting point at no cost.
12:51<skidd13>TrueBrain: Bah. What a damned mistake. And 2 people overlooked it :(
12:51<TrueBrain>yup
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12:55<Wolf01>hello
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13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11386 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-11-05 19:07:09
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 24 changed by TrueTenacity (24)
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed by Hadez (1)
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 fixed by habell (1)
13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 4 fixed, 43 changed by jhsoby (47)
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15:26<hylje>mm.. delicious train imageboard
15:27<hylje>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyecg4m8XqQ
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15:44<hylje>http://www.1chan.net/rail/src/1193879263757.jpg
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16:03<Brianetta>Me: http://rachel.ppcis.org:8080/
16:04<Kommer>slow upload? :)
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16:05<Rubidium>is he going to get (kinda) slashdotted?
16:05|-|Ben_1 [~Ben@91.84.73.129] has joined #openttd
16:05<Vikthor>Rubidium: Exactly my thought :)
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16:06<Vikthor>The other one was something about exhibitionism :P
16:07<Rubidium>question is whether the strain is so much that he's getting kicked (read timed out) from IRC
16:08<Desolator>is Chris around here?
16:08<Rubidium>THE Chris has never been here
16:08<Rubidium>or at least he didn't publicly announce himself as THE Chris
16:08<Desolator>I mean the guy who made ChrisIN
16:08<Desolator>>.
16:08<Desolator>>.>
16:09<Desolator>!seen ludde
16:09<_42_>Desolator, if you can't see ludde here right now, you probably need new glasses. ^_^
16:09<Desolator>we need an new bot...
16:09<Vikthor>Desolator: Isn't he in the ChriIN channel?
16:09<Desolator>on...whut server?
16:10<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: He's tycooned ;)
16:10<Vikthor>Desolator: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32698
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16:12<skidd13>Hi again
16:12<Desolator>hi
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16:16<skidd13>TrueBrain: Did you fixed the patch-list attatched thing?
16:17|-|Ben_1 changed nick to _Ben_
16:18<hylje>http://www.1chan.net/rail/src/1193482842304.jpg
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16:28<Desolator>LOL!
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16:37<Smoovious><Desolator> I mean the guy who made ChrisIN <--- he pokes his head in IRC occasionally, but mostly sticks to the forum
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16:42<mikk36>hey :)
16:42<mikk36>is it possible to change difficulty settings with rcon ?
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16:46<ln->http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/algoritmi.jpg
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17:01<ln->who has watched the tv series "professor poopsnaggle and his flying zeppelin" as a kid?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause3>i think that ran under the name "mister snuggles" here
17:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think i watched more than two episodes ever...
17:04<ln->doctor snuggles was a completely different thing.
17:05<ln->the former was not a cartoon.
17:05<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, then i probably have no idea what you are talking about
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>and the picture above is definitely photoshopped :p
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17:08<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5hMNnXgH34
17:08<ln->(that was not a youtube link, you all saw wrong)
17:08<ln->(besides, it was relevant to discussion)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause3>you forgot the handwaving ;)
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17:13<mikk36>never seen that series :)
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17:20<SmatZ>hello
17:20<SmatZ> I see skidd13's updates are already commited
17:20<SmatZ>so there is no need to profile them
17:21<SmatZ>anyway, I did a look into generated ASM code
17:21<SmatZ>and it is the same...
17:21<SmatZ>I didn't look into all functions, but it looks the same
17:22<SmatZ>KillFirstBit2x64 is not used anywhere in the code :)
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17:23<skidd13>SmatZ: not all stuff is committed. The define -> template stuff hasn't been commited
17:23<SmatZ>ah...
17:23<skidd13>But thanks for the checks
17:24<SmatZ>np :)
17:24<SmatZ>the "FindFirstBit2x64" generated code is not nice :-(
17:25[~]Rubidium knows more code that is not nice
17:25<SmatZ>:-)
17:26<skidd13>SmatZ: I'm on this dirty little piece of code. I'll post my fist change in the next minutes ;)
17:26<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: no, i can definitely say i have never seen that either
17:26<Rubidium>let me say that putting GoogleEarth panels in a .NET application's window does not yield nice code
17:26<SmatZ>or http://paste.openttd.org/276 ... only one instruction, bsr, could be used instead...
17:27<SmatZ>about the "rep ret" - it is a gcc bug while using Intel syntax, fixed in newest releases
17:27<SmatZ>skidd13: I am looking forward to see it
17:28<skidd13>I got only rid of GB in this function. This should increase it a bit.
17:28<SmatZ>Rubidium: only the description is enough for me :)
17:28<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: pity. it was a good series, although i don't remember almost anything about it.
17:28<skidd13>SmatZ: Assigned allready on the patch-mailinglist?
17:28<SmatZ>skidd13: yes
17:28<skidd13>K
17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: but in my defense, in east germany you hardly ever had the ability to watch western shows
17:29<SmatZ>too bad my Firefox wants to save all attachments to a file
17:29<SmatZ>so I cannot browse patches in the browser...
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17:29<SmatZ>save + open in an editor is boring :-/
17:30<skidd13>yup
17:30<Rubidium>SmatZ: curl + gpm + less maybe?
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17:32<SmatZ>Rubidium: nice, now I would only need something with C++ syntax highlighting :)
17:33<SmatZ>something like paste.openttd.org to browse attachments would be nice
17:34<skidd13>SmatZ: If I were AOL I'd say You've got post :D
17:36<SmatZ>skidd13: do you mean some kind of private message?
17:36<skidd13>nope maillist
17:37<TrueBrain>skidd13: did you do some profiling?
17:37<Rubidium>skidd13: I think it would rather be something like 'You've got mail' (trying to translate the German dubbed version of "You've got mail" back to English?)
17:38<skidd13>Rubidium: whatever ;)
17:38<TrueBrain>skidd13: btw, I didn't fix the attachment stuff yet, let me see if it is possible..
17:38<skidd13>TrueBrain: Ask SmatZ
17:38<TrueBrain>what should I ask him? :p
17:38<skidd13>Profiling
17:38<skidd13>or check the IRC log
17:38<TrueBrain>skidd13: you can profile too, you know ;)
17:38<TrueBrain>too lazy, I ask you :)
17:39<SmatZ>skidd13: now when some parts are commited, what patch should I profile?
17:39<skidd13>SmatZ: The one from the mailinglist ;) But pleas replace the n -= 1; with n--;
17:39<SmatZ>skidd13: it's ok, compiler will handle it the same way
17:40<skidd13>I know, but I prefer cleaner style ;)
17:40<SmatZ>:)
17:41<SmatZ>skidd13: which patch?
17:41<SmatZ>there are a lot of them :D
17:41<skidd13>http://maillist.openttd.org/pipermail/patch/2007-November/000009.html
17:42<skidd13>TrueBrain: I'm at profiling too. But my pc is so damned slow :D
17:42<TrueBrain>hehe
17:42<TrueBrain>even better :)
17:42<TrueBrain>slower computers show differences better
17:43<SmatZ>skidd13: you may use ccache or distcc to compile faster :)
17:43<skidd13>TrueBrain: I hate waiting for the next build ;)
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17:43<TrueBrain>skidd13: I made some changes to the maillist, it might or might not help with attachments ;)
17:44<skidd13>second :(
17:44<TrueBrain>skidd13: I made some changes to the maillist 2 seconds ago, it might or might not help with attachments ;)
17:44<skidd13>checked one second ago ;)
17:45<TrueBrain>skidd13: I made some changes to the maillist 2 seconds ago, it might or might not help with attachments, but will only work for new incoming emails ;)
17:45<TrueBrain>sigh...
17:45<TrueBrain>:p
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17:45<skidd13>:D :P
17:45<SmatZ>ah
17:47<SmatZ>skidd13: are you the 'register' attribute is a good idea?
17:48<TrueBrain>SmatZ: shouldn't a compiler decide on that?
17:48<TrueBrain>as using register for such functions might in fact decrease performance
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17:49<skidd13>K
17:49<SmatZ>TrueBrain: actually, I have the same opinion
17:51<SmatZ>+template<typename T> static inline T ALIGN(const T x, register uint n) {
17:51<SmatZ>I hope the compiler won't place the constant in a register :)
17:52<SmatZ>and given that most architectures will have 2 registers for function parameters...
17:53<skidd13>SmatZ: it's not a constant
17:53<SmatZ>it is often called with a constant parameter, isn't it?
17:53|-|TinoM [~Tino@i5387C182.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:54<skidd13>it is called often with the same parameter, but the value itself is not constant ;)
17:54<TrueBrain>'static inlines' are assumed to be optimized by the compiler as optimal as possible, including pushing things via the register
17:54<TrueBrain>but, in fact, I believe register in inline params are ignored ;)
17:54<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I hope so
17:55<SmatZ>skidd13: :-(
17:55<skidd13>Ok I removed all the register stuff
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17:55<SmatZ>+ return (T)(x << n | x >> (sizeof(x) * 8 - n));
17:55<SmatZ>you really know the C++ operator priority ;-)
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17:56<SmatZ>the same as in the original macro
17:56<SmatZ>wow
17:57<skidd13>No obvious possible outsourcing or simplification so keep it ;)
17:57<skidd13>That's what I thought
17:57<SmatZ>http://paste.openttd.org/277 the compiler is really dumb about optimizing the ROR function :-/
17:58<skidd13>what about -fast-math ?
17:58<SmatZ>with -O3 -fno-inline -fno-optimize-sibling-calls
17:58<SmatZ>skidd13: it optimizes only floating point operations
17:59<skidd13>SmatZ: Thanks... One thing I didn't knew
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18:02<SmatZ> rol %edx, 25
18:02<SmatZ>ahh
18:02<SmatZ>it is OK when inlining is on
18:02<SmatZ>strange
18:02<SmatZ> ror %edx, 7
18:02<SmatZ>when ROR as a macro
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18:09<Wolf01>'night
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18:12<SmatZ>running 2 copies of ottd with nice -19
18:12<SmatZ>make smy computer really laggy
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18:15<skidd13>good night
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18:17<SmatZ>hmm interesting
18:18<SmatZ>I don't know where is the performance gain (eg. in which function), but the skidd13's patch makes it faster
18:18<SmatZ>by roughly 10%
18:18<SmatZ>I did 2 tests and both ended with similiar results
18:18<SmatZ>I will recheck openttd.cfg to be the same
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18:21<Unknown>TrueBrain: got a second?
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18:24<SmatZ>hmm of course
18:24<SmatZ>I shouldn't be profiling on a savegame with AI...
18:26<TrueBrain>Unknown: always just speak, maybe someone else have the answer
18:26<TrueBrain>SmatZ: might be not the smartest
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18:28<Unkown_Entity>would 320 KB for each _spritecache and _spritecache_ptr be enough?
18:28<TrueBrain>spritecache is a dynamic array nowedays
18:28|-|liona29 [~liona29@ANantes-257-1-143-77.w90-32.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit []
18:28<TrueBrain>anyway, 320 KiB is kind of low
18:28<SmatZ>patched version : user 1m6.190s original version : user 1m0.650s
18:29<TrueBrain>what would happen, is that on low cache-values, it reads a lot from disk
18:29<TrueBrain>so the game will get pretty slow
18:29<TrueBrain>but I guess it is a matter of trail-and-error
18:29<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: why exactly? Is the memory that limited?
18:29|-|XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29<SmatZ>now with inlining...
18:29<TrueBrain>SmatZ: lol, was that without inlining?
18:30<SmatZ>yes
18:30<TrueBrain>haha, no wonder it is slower :)
18:30<TrueBrain>I could tell you that :p
18:30<SmatZ>:)
18:30<TrueBrain>a jump and a return
18:30<Unkown_Entity>yes, thge DS only has 4 MB of main memory and for some reason I can only allocate about 2 MB.
18:30<+glx>replacing a macro without inlining?
18:30<TrueBrain>depending on your CPU, they are both expensive :)
18:30<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: iek, that makes it tricky...
18:30<SmatZ>it was my fault, I forgot to turn off -fno-inline -fno-optimize-sibling-calls
18:30<TrueBrain>hehe :)
18:30<TrueBrain>glx: see maillist
18:30<Unkown_Entity>so I abused the VRAM for the spritecache but I wasn't sure if that would cause much trouble
18:31<TrueBrain>oh, wait, I misread you:p
18:31<TrueBrain>hehe
18:31<Unkown_Entity>an VRAM only has 640 KB, so not much better :(
18:31<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: lol, is that possible?
18:31<TrueBrain>(clearly, but okay :))
18:31<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: sure, you can basically map a variable to any memory you want to
18:31<TrueBrain>anyway, a cache of 640 KiB should be enough I guess
18:32<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: real pcs have virtual memory, which doesn't make that job that easy ;)
18:32<SmatZ>Unkown_Entity: interesting, but given how OTTD is slow on a Pentium class PC - are you able to play it?
18:32<TrueBrain>SmatZ: is it slow?
18:33<TrueBrain>that is, with old pathfinder and 256x256 maps?
18:33<SmatZ>TrueBrain: yes :(
18:33<TrueBrain>it in fact should run perfectly..
18:33[~]glx should restart his P133 to check :)
18:33<SmatZ>I don't know, I play only HUGE maps
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18:33<TrueBrain>SmatZ: see, that is YOUR mistake, not OTTDs
18:33<Unkown_Entity>currently I have based my code on the repository but I might have to fork it from 0.5.3 because the older versions only use about half the memory
18:33<SmatZ>you are right, I am sorry, <3 OTTD
18:34<TrueBrain>hehe :)
18:34<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: huh?
18:34<SmatZ>:)
18:34<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: tweaked correctly, trunk shouldn't use more than 0.5.3
18:34<TrueBrain>(if you don't load up all the extras, that is ;))
18:35<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: I comiled both 0.5.3 and trunk with the same settings and trunk used 4.0MB, 0.5.3 only 2.3MB
18:35<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: are you sure you used the same amount of sprite-cache value?
18:35<+glx>trunk reduced static array usage
18:35<TrueBrain>in 0.5.3 this was hardcoded, in trunk it is dynamic, but a higher default value
18:36<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: ah, that must be the reason. I didn't know that
18:36<SmatZ>the vehicle cache is bigger, too, but I think it went from 64kB to 2x128kB
18:36<TrueBrain>put, for example, the sprite_cache_size at 1
18:36<Unkown_Entity>I only studied the code from trunk I didn't really compare it to 0.5.3
18:37<TrueBrain>SmatZ: if you mean the vheicle pool, it is the same size
18:37<TrueBrain>we don't have a vehicle cache
18:37<TrueBrain>only a pathfinder cache, but that is YAPF
18:37<Unkown_Entity>but still, even if i'd ever get it running on the ds i might have to fork it to make use of both processors
18:37<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: OpenTTD and multicore is a no-can-do
18:38<+glx>multithread is only used for saving and map generation
18:38<TrueBrain>any 'fork' would result in a direct rewrite from scratch in order to get that working
18:38<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: definately sound processing and maybe even the blitter could be done on the second processor i think
18:38<TrueBrain>glx: and map-generation is fake :)
18:38<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I mean static Vehicle *_new_vehicle_position_hash[TOTAL_HASH_SIZE]; and _vehicle_position hash, both have 128kB - in 0.5 is only on hash pool, with 64kB (I think)
18:38<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: blitter, no (believe me, I wrote it :p). Sound, yes, possible
18:38<TrueBrain>but little gain I guess
18:39<TrueBrain>SmatZ: ah, position hash, yes, indeed
18:39<SmatZ>TrueBrain: finally, working comparison of skidds13's updates: trunk - user 0m41.550s ... patched - user 0m41.520s
18:39<TrueBrain>SmatZ: but, if you don't use maps bigger than 256x256, it is safe to say you can reduce the HASH_SIZE :)
18:39<TrueBrain>SmatZ: good, that is promising :)
18:39<+glx>SmatZ: right, but 0.5.x has bugs in tunnels because of that IIRC
18:39<SmatZ>TrueBrain: :-)
18:39<TrueBrain>you are signed on to the maillist?
18:40<TrueBrain>glx: you are correct :)
18:40<SmatZ>glx: really?
18:40<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: but couldn't the second processor check for dirty sprites and redraw them on it's own?
18:40<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I am
18:40<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: no, as it needs _m access
18:40<TrueBrain>SmatZ: please post the profile result and how you did it (how many runs etc etc) to the maillist
18:40<Unkown_Entity>maybe i could map _m to shared memory ^^
18:40<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: you want a longer explanation? (I dunno how much you know already :))
18:41<TrueBrain>no no, the share problem isn't the issue at all
18:41<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: not yet, i'll spare you the time. first i have to get it running on one preocessor ;)
18:41<TrueBrain>hehe :)
18:41<TrueBrain>well, let me tell you anyway :p
18:41<TrueBrain>I am on a roll :p
18:41<TrueBrain>hehe
18:41<+glx>the problem is to synchronise read and write to _m
18:41<TrueBrain>OpenTTD works around _m, our map
18:41<TrueBrain>reading, writing, everything is done via wrappers, but in no common order
18:42<TrueBrain>if you would make threads, you would need to make read/write locking
18:42<TrueBrain>as else one thread might be writing in _m, while the other is reading
18:42<TrueBrain>so, drawing bytes means _m access
18:42<TrueBrain>means locking
18:42<+glx>and every action should ALWAYS happen in the same order
18:42<TrueBrain>locking would be dead slow in its current form
18:42<TrueBrain>glx: the blitter doesn't, so that can be worked around
18:42<SmatZ>huh, it would be impossible to make it network-safe
18:42<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: above that, the blitter only consumes a little 2% CPU time in the last profile I had
18:43<Unkown_Entity>ok, I agree, sharing _m would be impossible
18:43<exe>guys how about doing vehicle ticks 50% less often? and interpolating their positions on screen view.
18:43<TrueBrain>so, the only way would be, to 'cache' all the tiles you want to draw to blitter in a temporary cache
18:43<Unkown_Entity>what other parts took enough cpu time to be worth the effort to move them to the other cpu?
18:43<TrueBrain>which is a thread-safe-stack
18:43<+glx>path finding is the most consuming task I think, and it's impossible to do it in a separate thread
18:43<TrueBrain>exe: costs CPU too ;)
18:44<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: the main consumer is either TileLoop, which we just said was impossible to do, or TrainController, whcih depends heavily on _m too
18:44<exe>but much much less?
18:44<TrueBrain>exe: depends, not reall
18:44<TrueBrain>it already is at a mimimum
18:44<TrueBrain>in-tile-movement is simple
18:44<TrueBrain>pathfinder, that is your killer :)
18:44<exe>yes.
18:45<TrueBrain>disabling realistic acceleration helps against CPU load too btw :p
18:45<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: too bad then. :( but currently the main issue seems to be memory not cpu time anyway.
18:45<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: well.. all options to make things multicore, involves more memory ;)
18:45<exe>do all the pathfinders crawl long straight rail segments one-by-one tile?
18:45<TrueBrain>so I guess you are out of luck for thatone anyway
18:45<TrueBrain>exe: basicly, yes. YAPF does something extra: it caches the result
18:45<TrueBrain>so, one segment, 1 check
18:45<TrueBrain>which increases the performance incredible
18:45<TrueBrain>at cost of memory :)
18:46<exe>ah ok
18:46<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: but some tips to reduce memory: don't allow map-sizes > 256 in both directions
18:46<Jello>4gigs of ram here
18:46<Jello>>:)
18:46<TrueBrain>reduces things like pool-size, hash-size, spritecache-size
18:46<TrueBrain>and you should be able to fit it in 2 MiB just fine
18:46<TrueBrain>(at the cost of bigmaps)
18:46<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: i already lowered map size to 64x64 :(
18:46<TrueBrain>hehe
18:46<TrueBrain>auch
18:46<exe>how does it know when to clear cache?
18:46<Jello>how much ram do u have?
18:47<TrueBrain>exe: callbacks at layout change procedures
18:47<Unkown_Entity>theoreticall 4 MB but for some reason i can only allocate 2 MB
18:47<TrueBrain>(placing signal is bye segment cache)
18:47<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: 2 MiB per CPU?
18:47<Jello>wtf...
18:47<+glx>Jello: DS
18:47<Jello>glx: ?
18:47<Unkown_Entity>might be because I currently onlywork on an emulator, I'll get the hardware next week hopefully
18:47<TrueBrain>hehe :)
18:47<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: no, they are shared between both
18:47<TrueBrain>what kind of OS does it run?
18:48<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: the emulator? i use DeSmuMe on Linux
18:48<TrueBrain>no, a DS :)
18:48<Unkown_Entity>no OS at all ^^
18:48<Unkown_Entity>there's a linux for ds in development though
18:48<TrueBrain>it needs something to boot a game
18:49<SmatZ>Bjarni and I (maybe others, I don't know) was doing some experiments about threading - some kind of vehicles can be done in separated threads (air, ships, rail+road), and rendering can be done threaded... but there are synchronization points, most noticeably GetSprite, that make everything really slow
18:49<SmatZ>you get 10% performance increase, but lose 20% because of synchronizing
18:49<TrueBrain>SmatZ: above that, any general solution makes the game DEAD slow on single-core
18:49<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: that's done in hardware i believe. it simply has to know the memory location of the binary which is always the same on every cartridge
18:49<SmatZ>yes
18:49<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it could be a compile-time option
18:50<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: so it loads directly from BIOS.. so you need to call interupts yourself? Or is an API taking care of that?
18:50<TrueBrain>(what I am trying to figure out: how to compile a game? :p)
18:50<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: i'm using the open source API devkitPro
18:50<TrueBrain>and it produces a working binary?
18:50<TrueBrain>what kind of 'target' is DS? (gcc is used?)
18:51<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: yes, when you have it setup correctly. actually it produces two binaries, one for each cpu
18:52<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: it's gcc, you can download it from www.devkitpro.org. easy to set up actually
18:52<TrueBrain>ah, it is an ARM CPU
18:52<TrueBrain>good choice :)
18:52<Unkown_Entity>but you can't really test your stuff on emulators. they are to slow and not accurate enough yet
18:52<Unkown_Entity>ARM7 and ARM9
18:52<TrueBrain>very nice
18:53<TrueBrain>how much MHz?
18:53<TrueBrain>oh, and the tihng I always wondered about the most: does it have 2 GPUs?
18:53<TrueBrain>(sorry, finally someone I can ask ;))
18:54<TrueBrain>SmatZ: btw, I really don't see any future in multithread and OpenTTD :)
18:54<TrueBrain>(okay, I need to be more exact: parallel threads :p)
18:54<TrueBrain>NoAI uses threads ;) (serial-threads :))
18:55<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: 33,6 MHz on one, I'm not sure about the other. and it's only one GPU I think. not sure though
18:55<exe>how about relaxing pathfinding corretness a bit? then train can pathfind in background threads some time before exiting tile on crossing.
18:55<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: you can check some specifics here: http://www.dev-scene.com/NDS/Tutorials_Day_2#Memory_Layout
18:55<TrueBrain>tnx Unkown_Entity
18:56<TrueBrain>exe: pathfinding means a lot of _m access, so no thread for mister pathfinder...
18:56<ln->DS doesn't have a MMU
18:56<SmatZ>hmm I got an idea about compiling OTTD for some PIC :)
18:57<TrueBrain>the ARM7 really is just there for support
18:57<Unkown_Entity>the ARM9 runs at 67 MHz, the ARM7 at 33 MHz
18:57<TrueBrain>so combined 100 MHz... I expected more
18:58<TrueBrain>the double in fact, was my estimate
18:58<Unkown_Entity>i think most commercial games don't use the ARM7 at all yet
18:58<TrueBrain>but oh well :p
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18:58<TrueBrain>it can't draw!
18:58<TrueBrain>you can only run think-routines on it :)
18:58<Unkown_Entity>but it can be put to use for sound processing very effectively
18:58<TrueBrain>true
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18:58<TrueBrain>btw, I don't see a GPU.. I guess the ARM9 _is_ the GPU? :)
18:58<SmatZ>TrueBrain: do you want me to run OTTD with profiling with optimizations turned on?
18:59<SmatZ>including inlining and optimized sibling calls?
18:59<TrueBrain>SmatZ: of course. See, I know by looking at the code skidd13's patch is slower without optimizations
18:59<TrueBrain>so, to profile that gives me a 'duh' moment :)
18:59<TrueBrain>mor eimportant I guess is: what happens in a release version
18:59<TrueBrain>so full optimizations
18:59<TrueBrain>of course, including what happens on a -fno-inline is useful too
18:59<TrueBrain>for the developers under us
18:59<TrueBrain>and damn, I really talk too much :p
19:00<SmatZ>TrueBrain: the way to reply to the discussion is by email, right?
19:00<TrueBrain>SmatZ: yup :) That is the idea anyway ;)
19:00<Unkown_Entity>I'm not sure about the graphics processing right now. i'll have to check some more. certainly something would have to be done by hardware otherwise the ARM9 shouldn't be enough to handle 3D
19:01<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: depends on how much 3D is done :) After all, a GPU is a CPU, only optimized for graphics ;)
19:01<ln->how big a map is needed to implement a processor capable of running OTTD?
19:01<TrueBrain>btw, Unkown_Entity, nice to see someone working on a DS port :)
19:02<TrueBrain>ln-: sorry, I couldn't parse that sentence.. it can go two ways :)
19:02<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: it's got "Hardware fog, lighting, and transformation along with non blending texture mapping, toon-shading, and edge anti-aliasing". so there must be some hardware graphics optimization in there ;)
19:02<exe>TrueBrain: pathfinder just does readonly access to _m, can't hooks pause the pathfinder when changing rail graph?
19:02<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: agree'd
19:02<ln->TrueBrain: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Logic
19:02<ln->TrueBrain: implementing a processor with those
19:02<TrueBrain>exe: yes, we call it locking ;)
19:02<Unkown_Entity>TrueBrain: but i don't want to get anyones hopes up yet. apart from a pong game i haven't done any DS coding yet. :p
19:03<TrueBrain>ln-: ah! You mean that :) I have been working on it myself, I only miss signal types :)
19:03<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: doesn't matter :) PSP port stranded too
19:03<TrueBrain>WinCE too
19:03<TrueBrain>but to have someone working on it is nice :)
19:03<TrueBrain>ln-: and I made it that trains were the electrons :)
19:03<TrueBrain>the clock speed only was 3 game-days
19:03<TrueBrain>hehe
19:04<TrueBrain>(with rigger maglev to have instant acceleration :p)
19:04<ln->hmm, i think even a 32-bit register could take quiiiiite much space on the map.
19:04<Unkown_Entity>a DS port would make much more sense than a PSP port. with the stylus and touchpad it would be much more comfortable
19:04<TrueBrain>ln-: it should be 8bit CPU
19:04<TrueBrain>anything bigger is just killing yourself
19:04<TrueBrain>Unkown_Entity: I agree
19:05<TrueBrain>ln-: I don't like tha tpage, it needs manual changing tracks :) That aint real!
19:05<ln->true
19:06<TrueBrain>hmm.. if we make trains electrons.. the circuit is as fast as the train
19:06<TrueBrain>can we make signals the electrons.. hmm..
19:07<SmatZ>are you reviving the NAND/NOR signal logic? :-)
19:07<TrueBrain>just for fun, can it be done with current signals...
19:08<TrueBrain>a ticker is simple :p
19:09<TrueBrain>hmm, ln-, what kind of computer do you want?
19:09<SmatZ>gate with delay in days (game days:)
19:09<TrueBrain>building an ALU might be simple
19:09<TrueBrain>so, the unit that does all the logic
19:09<TrueBrain>but that doesn't make a CPU :)
19:10<TrueBrain>no, you need trains to be electrons
19:10<Ailure>meow
19:10<TrueBrain>so, you need a recycle path :p
19:10<TrueBrain>lol
19:11<ln->TrueBrain: a computer doing addition with given parameters could be nice
19:11<TrueBrain>ln-: gimme example :)
19:11<TrueBrain>something real
19:11<TrueBrain>'with given parameters' still is too vague :)
19:11<TrueBrain>lets limit ourself to a 4bit computer btw
19:12|-|ludde [~ludde@ua-83-227-238-252.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:12<ln->sure
19:12|-|smoovi [smoovi@e178218115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: #idlerpg]
19:13<ln->hmm, well, a computer that calculates 2+3, for example
19:13<Ailure>heh
19:13<Ailure>4-bit computers
19:13<Ailure>have anyone ever used one?
19:13<Ailure>lowest I gone was like, 8-bit processor
19:13<TrueBrain>Ailure: if you can make a 4bit, you can make N bit
19:13<Ailure>where I used 6502 assembly
19:13<SmatZ>maybe calculators have 4bit CPUs
19:13|-|Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:14<Ailure>heh
19:14<Ailure>one amusing thing I thought on was like
19:14<Ailure>programming a i386 virtual machine for 6502 processors
19:15<Ailure>there will so much fun with bankswitching
19:15<SmatZ>:-D
19:15|-|mist`shoo [~mst@czk21.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
19:15<SmatZ>I had an idea about implementing 80386 at 80286
19:15<mist`shoo>hey, guys
19:15<SmatZ>I ended with 80286 emulator running at 80286
19:15<mist`shoo>one question
19:15<SmatZ>so it was like 20 times slower 80286
19:16<ln->great
19:16<Ailure>that's always the case for virtual machines
19:16<mist`shoo>why my aircrafts have (after time) "empty command" when I set "depot service" early?
19:16<Ailure>there are tricks to reach great speed
19:16<Ailure>but it's never 1:1
19:17<mist`shoo>i mean "void order"
19:17<SmatZ>Ailure: it depends what you call 'virtual machine' :) some processors allow running of legacy programs, like VM86, or even real-mode on new x86, amd64, CPUs
19:17<Ailure>void order should only appear after you destroyed the destination of said order
19:17<ln->TrueBrain: feature request: ability to have wagons from several companies in one train, and drop them off one by one at stations.
19:17<SmatZ>mist`shoo: what version are you running?
19:17<TrueBrain>ln-: if you revert, that red is signal, and green is no-signal, it becomes much easier :)
19:18<Ailure>you might have stumbled upon a bug if that's not the case
19:18<TrueBrain>ln-: a real game request, or? As I don't see what you mean...
19:18<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: you removed your airport?
19:18<Ailure>SmatZ: Heh true, and I suspect that's how the case for most virtual machines
19:18<Ailure>Some virtual machines do fun stuff
19:18<SmatZ>Ailure: as my bachelor work, I made a 80x86 emulator, that run ~7x slower than original machine... it uses dynamic recompilation
19:18<ln->TrueBrain: additionally, "public" tracks, and tracks that only allow trains with a wagon of the same company as last wagon.
19:18<SmatZ>it could be done better...
19:19<Ailure>like translating the machine code of the spefic processor
19:19<Ailure>into machine code of another processor
19:19<SmatZ>Ailure: yes, exactly
19:19<ln->TrueBrain: Finite State Automata
19:19<Ailure>The SNES emulator ZSNES does that I belive
19:19<TrueBrain>ln-: explain?
19:19<TrueBrain>hmm
19:19<TrueBrain>I think I know what you are getting at
19:19<TrueBrain>that would allow you to make a microcontroller
19:19<Ailure>SmatZ oh nice
19:20<SmatZ>Ailure: I think even DOSBox does that, but it is really slow :-/
19:20<TrueBrain>I HATE that Shift is fastforward in debug mode...
19:20<mist`shoo>TrueBrain no, airport is still there
19:20<mist`shoo>TrueBrain i have 0.4.8 version
19:20<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: weird.. make a savegame of before and after, and go to http://bugs.openttd.org I guess
19:20<TrueBrain>ah
19:20<Ailure>I thought on doing that as a Bachelor project
19:20<TrueBrain>upgrade :)
19:20<Ailure>but something simpler
19:20<Ailure>or I dunno
19:20<TrueBrain>0.4.8 is long long ago :) 0.5.3 is latest
19:21<Ailure>I'm in my last year
19:21<mist`shoo>omg!
19:21<mist`shoo>:)
19:21<SmatZ>Ailure: go for it! :)
19:21<Ailure>but i'm thinking about taking another year to get the equilant of Master degree
19:21<Ailure>but I still have to do a project
19:21<Ailure>well, it's either a project of my own
19:21<Ailure>or something assigned by a external company
19:21<mist`shoo>because i was playing TTD long time ago and im back - fresh, smart but lame in all new open stuff :)
19:21<ln->TrueBrain: i'm not sure what automata can do in hardware, but they can be used for equivalents of regular expressions.
19:22<Ailure>I actually started on a small X86 emulator
19:22<TrueBrain>hmm, is a NOT port possible..
19:22<Ailure>eh wait
19:22<TrueBrain>hmm
19:22<Ailure>not X86
19:22<Ailure>6502
19:22<Ailure>duh
19:23<Ailure>the way I did it was kind of clumsy though lol
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19:23<SmatZ>I don't know 6502 :(
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19:23<Ailure>the whole emulator was basically a huge switch statement inside a infinite loop
19:23<Ailure>oh 6502 is fun
19:24<Ailure>very simplistic processor too
19:24<TrueBrain>Ailure: aren't all emulators, at some level? :p
19:24<TrueBrain>I am creating a MIPS emulator, also fun fun :p
19:24<TrueBrain>lol
19:24<Ailure>heh I guess
19:24<TrueBrain>hmm
19:24<SmatZ>TrueBrain: like, you are emulating CPU in hardware? :)
19:24<Ailure>but I just looked it up and there was better ways
19:24<TrueBrain>how to get a signal GREEN when something is on the track?
19:24<SmatZ>programming in VHDL...
19:24<Ailure>for the programming language I was using (Java)
19:24<TrueBrain>SmatZ: hmm.. not really :p
19:24<Ailure>someone have written a fast Playstation emulator in Java apparently
19:24<ln->btw, did you know that C can be converted to run under Java virtual machine?
19:24<Ailure>and I read his presentation slides
19:24<TrueBrain>we made a datapath,w e made microcode, and now implementing it in C++ :P
19:25<Ailure>heh
19:25<Ailure>I never touched MIPS
19:25<SmatZ>hey this channel is full of people writing emulators! :-D
19:25<ln->correction: _compiled_ C can be converted to run under JVM
19:25<Ailure>but I know it's bit... unusual
19:25<TrueBrain>no floats ;)
19:26<Ailure>uhm
19:26<Ailure>yes
19:26<Ailure>but with C in Java
19:26<Ailure>C is only used when you need to break out of the sandbox
19:26<SmatZ>ln-: even on a different architecture?
19:26<Ailure>also called native classes
19:27|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1E14D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:27<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Native_Interface
19:27<Ailure>you kinda lose the point
19:27<Ailure>with Java by using JNI
19:29<exe>it's nowhere as fun as {Console::WriteLine("Hello World - Managed");std::cout << "Hello World - Native" << std::endl;} of c++/cli
19:29<TrueBrain>bah, I hate NOT-ports :p
19:30<ln->SmatZ: the idea was to (cross)compile C to a MIPS binary, and somehow convert that to native java bytecode. (i only read about this, didn't try)
19:31<SmatZ>ln-: MIPS instruction set and Java bytecode are someway similiar? (I don't know)
19:31<ln->probably then..
19:32<Ailure>eh
19:32<Ailure>I doubt it
19:32<Ailure>bytecode is made to be interpreted by software
19:32<Ailure>machine code is made for being interpreted by hardware
19:32<Ailure>:p
19:32<Ailure>bytecode tend to make a few shortcuts becuse of this
19:32<ln->weren't there supposed to be processors that run Java natively?
19:33|-|mist`shoo [~mst@88-199-33-137.tktelekom.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:33<SmatZ>yes
19:33<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor
19:33<TrueBrain>lol, I can stop the clock... now that is just wrong...
19:33<TrueBrain>signals in OpenTTD really are fucked :p
19:33<TrueBrain>(directional signal)
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19:34<SmatZ>TrueBrain: :-D
19:35<ln->maybe it was this site i was reading: http://www.xwt.org/mips2java/ (although they convert binary to java source first, but well that doesn't change the point)
19:35<SmatZ>:-x
19:36<Ailure>hehe
19:36<Ailure>the java bytecode isn't too widely docuemanted I guess
19:36<Ailure>even if you can probably find a reference for it
19:36<SmatZ>I am not sure whether Java is a good platform to develop CPU emulators... if you demand speed
19:36<Ailure>well it's a good language
19:36<Ailure>some of the problems related with java have been resolved too
19:37<ln->only it's not a good language for teaching programming, for which it is often used.
19:37<Ailure>been proved it can be as fast as nativly compiled code, but things like startup time is still needed
19:37<Tefad>ugh java makes me want to punch things when i use it
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19:37<Tefad>wayyy to verbose
19:37<Ailure>well
19:37<Ailure>it made me a better programmer
19:37<Ailure>even if learning it was hell
19:37<Tefad>too as well
19:38<Tefad>ok, for the most part i understand streams and the like, however the whole GUI thing is annoying
19:38<Ailure>I realized how much that was possible in C but not in Java
19:38<SmatZ>I never got used to OOP.... Java is a real pain for me :-/
19:38<Ailure>usually was bad practice to do anyway
19:38<Tefad>i think GUI programming in general is an annoyance to me though : \
19:38<Tefad>java's is just more so
19:38<Ailure>Windows API is supposed to be hell
19:38<Ailure>but I never touched it
19:38<Tefad>nor have i
19:38<Ailure>Java API isn't too hard to use
19:38<Tefad>well, i've poked it i guess, but never got down to nittygritty
19:38<Ailure>the only problem is that well
19:39<Ailure>it assumes you know OOP
19:39<Ailure>don't grasp OOP and you will have problems
19:39<Tefad>i wrote a program that would beep the PC speaker in 9x or NT for x86 platforms.
19:39<Ailure>bah
19:39<Ailure>you don't need a program for that
19:39<Tefad>at various frequencies
19:39<Ailure>oh
19:39<Ailure>then nevermind :)
19:39<Ailure>you can write a infinite loop bat that outputs the bell signal
19:39<ln->class names in Java are at least 500 letters long and due to the stupidity of having to allocate everything with new, each of them needs to be typed at least twice.
19:39<Ailure>was really fun to annoy people with
19:40<ln->per variable
19:40<Tefad>bell signal can be interpreted by windows to play "ding.wav" or whatever
19:40<SmatZ>:-D
19:40<Ailure>really?
19:40<Ailure>heh
19:40<Ailure>I thought the bell signal
19:40<Ailure>it's mostly a leftover from early computing days
19:41<Ailure>where the huge mainframe actually had a bell
19:41<Ailure>that would ring at signal
19:41<Ailure>I think most of the early giants to computers had even
19:41<Tefad>win32 API was developed initially for NT iirc. win32 has Beep(). however when win32 was ported to win3.1 (and carried on into win9x) Beep() was only a stub.
19:41<Ailure>so researchers would be able to tell when it was done
19:41<Ailure>since it took a half eternity to get done sometimes
19:41<Tefad>so to make a beep in 16bit derived windows (win32s win9x/me) one has to directly interface with the timer hardware.
19:42<Ailure>ah
19:42<Ailure>Win95 wasn't supposed to be made apparently
19:42<ln->do modern day printers have bells?
19:42<Ailure>I doubt so
19:43<Ailure>I doubt even my first printer does <<
19:43<ln->i had one in the 90's that did have
19:43<Ailure>which was a ink one
19:43<Ailure>then it's something I never got to try
19:43<Ailure>since it's something I didn tknow about
19:43<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_bytecode
19:43<Ailure>intresting
19:43<ln->it would beep if it was given the bell byte
19:44<Tefad>\007 yes?
19:44<Tefad>or \a
19:44<mist`shoo>TrueBrain - ive installed newest version and i have "bushes" in polish language - i mean: ??ywno?c
19:44<ln->yesssss
19:44<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: language problems should go to the language depertmant :)
19:44<TrueBrain>(see www.openttd.org, I believ eunder development)
19:45<TrueBrain>argh, this NOT port is driving me crazy :)
19:45<TrueBrain>I think it is easier to make an OpenTTD modification :p
19:45<exe>??
19:45<SmatZ>I agree with exe
19:45<mist`shoo>but i have used 0.4.8 and there was correct polish lang
19:46<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: I don't understand you, sorry
19:46<TrueBrain>you mean you see ? chars
19:46<TrueBrain>a questionmark
19:46<TrueBrain>the exact figure?
19:46<SmatZ>mist`shoo: download unifont.grf and include it in openttd.cfg, inder newgrf_static ... or how is it called
19:46<TrueBrain>SmatZ: no, we have easier solutions for that these days
19:46<mist`shoo>questionmark is an example
19:46<Ailure>you know
19:46<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: I suggest to read the README, it tells you to download a font
19:46<Ailure>hmm
19:46<TrueBrain>and set it
19:46<Ailure>this is probably not too hard to do
19:47<SmatZ>TrueBrain: ok, sorry then
19:47<Ailure>attach a bell to the computer
19:47<Ailure>make it ring when the bell byte been printed out
19:47<exe>NOT is .NET?
19:47<Ailure>this probably wouldn't work well on any closed systems :)
19:47<Ailure>but should be easy for open systems
19:47<SmatZ>honestly, 0.5 was the version when I stopped using Czech language, because of '?' everywhere... even unifont doesn't have all required characters, and I don't want to use different font...
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19:48<TrueBrain>mist`shoo: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Unicode tells you about it... kind of..
19:48<mist`shoo>SmatZ - but, you know, i dont want to change my language because of upgrade... was good, is wrong now :/
19:49<SmatZ>mist`shoo: I totally understand
19:49<TrueBrain>SmatZ: eeuuhh...
19:49<TrueBrain>you for real?
19:49<Rafagd>mist`shoo: get the source, correct the errors, send the patch =]
19:50<TrueBrain>Rafagd: it aint an error :)
19:50<SmatZ>TrueBrain: did I say something wrong?
19:50<TrueBrain>SmatZ: no, I was wondering your logic
19:50<TrueBrain>load a proper font file and you loose the ?
19:50<TrueBrain>and there are font files which look just like the default OpenTTD ones :)
19:50<Ailure>hmm
19:50<Ailure>reminds me about a stable release
19:50<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I know only unifont, but it miss some glyphs
19:50<TrueBrain>the whole reason why we introduced Unicode :)
19:50<Ailure>that did default to russian for some fun reason
19:51<TrueBrain>SmatZ: 0.5 and on supports Unicode, you know that, right? :)
19:51<SmatZ>*misses
19:51<SmatZ>TrueBrain: yes :)
19:51<TrueBrain>no, k :)
19:51<Ailure>heh
19:51<Ailure>it reminds me about how TTO did stuff
19:51<TrueBrain>so mist`shoo, there is no reason to change languages, just set a font, and you will see all your lovely chars :)
19:51<TrueBrain>Ailure: are you in a 'remember' mood? You sound like Bjarni :)
19:51<Ailure>since the station symbols technically are special charcthers
19:51<Ailure>at least in TTO
19:52<SmatZ>!seen Bjarni
19:52<_42_>SmatZ, Bjarni (~Bjarni@0x50c79a03.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 1 day 23 hours 9 minutes ago (04.11. 01:42) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 3 hours 19 minutes there.
19:52<Ailure>so using åäöÅÄÖ would sometimes result into station icons being written
19:52<Ailure>that was fun
19:52<Ailure>well
19:52<Ailure>I do live next to Denmark.
19:52<SmatZ>yes, you could insert that characters into savegame, maybe even company name
19:52<Ailure>Live in southest part of Sweden.
19:52|-|Osai [~Osai@pD9EB7B06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Osai]
19:52<mist`shoo>TrueBrain - ok, so im on wiki and? shoud i change e.g. small_font = to small_font = Arial ?
19:53<TrueBrain>good start
19:53<Ailure>I hadn't seen many signs of Bjarni being stereotypically danish though.
19:53<Ailure>Then, the Swedish stereotypical image of a danish person is that of a drunk person.
19:53<Ailure>:p
19:54<SmatZ>:-D
19:55<exe>TrueBrain: i still think pathfinder could be possibly multithreaded :) all the pathfinder threads get a message before map change and after it. Pathfinder threads can look for a new message in outermost loop (not much locking) and It's not a problem if the main game has to wait even 0.5 milisecond for pathfinders to acknowledge map change.
19:55<SmatZ>Ailure: Danish must love you :-)
19:55<Ailure>lol
19:55<Ailure>well
19:55<Ailure>the history between denmark and Swedish
19:55<Ailure>is rather tense
19:55<Ailure>:p
19:55<SmatZ>:-(
19:57|-|Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
19:57<TrueBrain>exe: I suggest, create it :)
19:58<Sacro>rawr
19:58<Ailure>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_II_of_Denmark
19:58<Ailure>Called Tyrant by Swedes
19:58<Ailure>King by Danish
19:58<Ailure>lol
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20:00<TrueBrain>now my NOT port gives signals at the speed of the clock ;)
20:00<TrueBrain>which... is not what I wanted :p
20:00<exe>TrueBrain:i will try to simulate that without game
20:02|-|LeviathNL [~thomas@z037133.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #openttd
20:03<SmatZ>:-D
20:03<SmatZ>good night
20:03<TrueBrain>night SmatZ
20:03<SmatZ>I spent too much time here today
20:04<SmatZ>bye TrueBrain
20:04|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:08<huma>he's gone for another couple of weeks..
20:09<TrueBrain>bah bah bah, and again, bah
20:09<TrueBrain>it looks impossible :p
20:10<huma>it looks photoshopped
20:11<TrueBrain>what/where/who?
20:11<TrueBrain>I guess we need the NAND patch :)
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20:14<TrueBrain>hmm, the one on the website has the same problem
20:14<TrueBrain>sometimes it does give a signal
20:19<Ailure>We get signal
20:20<TrueBrain>well, I guess it has to be..
20:20<TrueBrain>btw, most part of the logic of the NOT gate on that website, is redundant
20:21<TrueBrain>(the whole 'b' channel)
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20:33<Ailure>.
20:34<TrueBrain>trains without orders can do strange things
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20:40<TrueBrain>I don't udnerstand combo signals :)
20:40<TrueBrain>who can explain them to me? :p
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20:43<TrueBrain>ha! I did it :)
20:43<TrueBrain>I really did it.... :)
20:43<TrueBrain>a synchronized clock fixed it all :)
20:44|-|LeviathNL [~thomas@z037133.its-s.tudelft.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:48<TrueBrain>ln-: http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/logic_gates.png
20:48<TrueBrain>besides the NOT gate, they are all very space efficient
20:48<TrueBrain>so.. now we can make circuits :)
20:54<TrueBrain>the only restriction is: while clock is ticking, all data is faulty :)
20:55<TrueBrain>bah, everyone went sleeping
20:55<TrueBrain>boring people :p
20:56<Unkown_Entity>one gameloop takes 58 ms on emulator. i'll better go to bed and wait for the postman with my hardware tomorrow. g'night ;)
20:56<TrueBrain>hehe
20:56<TrueBrain>night Unkown_Entity
20:56<TrueBrain>btw, 58ms aint bad ;)
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20:57<exe>people are still here
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 06 00:00:16 2007