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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-06

---Logopened Tue Nov 06 00:00:16 2007
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00:47<mikk36|work>what's the shortcut for level land ?
00:48<mikk36|work>aha, E
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02:06<Rygrass>hey
02:06<Rygrass>can anyoen help me?
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02:09<huma>that was fast
02:10<huma>i was just about to help.. eh..
02:10<Noldo>they are quite quick sometimes
02:12<huma>yea..
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04:06[~]BigBB is away:
04:18|-|Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@galadriel.td.mw.tum.de] has joined #openttd
04:18<Celestar>morning
04:32<huma>god morgen
04:33<mikl>jaeh, det kan vel diskuteres :)
04:33<Celestar>;)
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05:05<Rubidium>Celestar: haven't seen you for a long time ;)
05:06<Rubidium>did you do some work on making the 'new' aircraft speeds customisable back when you were still active?
05:10<Celestar>Rubidium: yes, I think so
05:10<Celestar>hi btw
05:10<Celestar>:)
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05:19<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll dig for the stuff later today, k?
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05:30<Rubidium>Celestar: that's fine
05:33<ln->http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1022757_cool_cash_card_confusion
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05:59<Gonozal_VIII>would it be possible to let you buy/sell land based vehicles only at depots, that are connected to one of your docks and then at the end of the month a ship arrives and unloads your new vehicles and picks up the ones you sold? and ships/planes also not instant buy/sell, they come in from outside the map
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06:04<Noldo>Gonozal_VIII: or from a factory on the map
06:05<Gonozal_VIII>yes
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06:40<dihedral>hello :-)
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07:04<TrueBrain>bah, creating a good logic circuit with OpenTTD is hard, because signals are stupid
07:04<Celestar>newsignalling :)
07:05<TrueBrain>hehe
07:05<TrueBrain>main problem is that signals totally ignore tracklayout
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07:06<Celestar>ay
07:06<dihedral>could they be combined with yapf?
07:06<TrueBrain>at a waste of CPU, yes
07:06<Celestar>they ought to
07:06<dihedral>some limited yapf :-P
07:06<TrueBrain>ha, finally I got myself a holding line (clock-based)
07:06<Celestar>hm ...
07:07<dihedral>clock-base?
07:07<TrueBrain>to make a logic circuit, things need to synchronize
07:07<TrueBrain>so, now I made a 4 bit bus, which waits for the clock before the signals are 'unleached' :)
07:07<dihedral>:-P
07:08<TrueBrain>for some reason only over time it desynchonizes..
07:12<TrueBrain>it worked a moment ago! :( Now it fails again...
07:12<TrueBrain>either a bug, or something is fishy :)
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07:15<Celestar>gnah
07:17<TrueBrain>sometimes my 2 trains do go together to the signal block
07:17<TrueBrain>sometimes they don't
07:18[~]Vikthor hopes that TrueBrains interest in logical circuits in OpenTTD will drive him to code PBS:)
07:18<TrueBrain>Vikthor: doesn't help for logic circuits
07:19<Vikthor>Ok, so maybe newsignals?
07:19<Celestar>damnit
07:19<TrueBrain>that would be cheating :)
07:19<Celestar>this Fortran code sucks, and my svnserve is not working either
07:21<Celestar>I mean not even svnadmin does anything
07:21<Celestar>restarting the server doesn't help a lot either
07:23<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/Logic.sav <- check this map... the 2 trains in the center of your screen might or might not start together
07:23<TrueBrain>this clearly makes it impossible to make any logic circuit in OpenTTD.... :( :(
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07:29<TrueBrain>newsignals, or more, routingrestriction is pretty useful
07:30[~]dihedral is already looking forward to seeing TrueBrains feature... :-)
07:30<TrueBrain>lol
07:30<TrueBrain>I want to see how TTDp did it :)
07:30<dihedral>lol
07:30<dihedral>that's cheating :-D
07:30<TrueBrain>no, that is trying to keep things a bit the same :)
07:34<dihedral>lol
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07:34<dihedral>is ttdp open source?
07:34<TrueBrain>yes
07:35<TrueBrain>I really never even read about routingrestrictions, I have to say
07:35|-|a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-163-29.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
07:37<TrueBrain>and it is, what, a year old? Lol :)
07:38<Ammler>TrueBrain: can you remember abaout a year or longer ago, OwenS played with NAND
07:39<TrueBrain>I remember NAND
07:39<TrueBrain>but that makes me wonder why doing NAND, and not doing general signals
07:39<Ammler>its a nice thrad, with flipflops etc.
07:40<huma>true nand brain
07:40<huma>:)
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07:41<Celestar>TrueBrain: do you have any idea how long an "svnadmin hotcopy" should take on a REALLY small repo?
07:42<Celestar>because I'm waiting for 3 hours now
07:42<Celestar>(it's 17 megs on disk)
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07:46<fjb>Moin
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07:47<TrueBrain>Celestar: euh, it takes 30 minutes for the OpenTTD SVN
07:48<Celestar>ok
07:48<Celestar>it seems I have a problem
07:48<Celestar>TrueBrain: svnadmin dump doesn't do anything either :o
07:48<TrueBrain>disks are okay?
07:48<TrueBrain>bdb repos or fsfs repos?
07:48<Celestar>bdb
07:48<TrueBrain>you are fucked
07:49<Celestar>disks are maybe not ok
07:49<Celestar>this is what I'm checking at the moment
07:49<Celestar>wtf
07:49<Celestar>the permissions are weird as well
07:50<TrueBrain>if bdb starts to fuck up, it is almost impossible to recover, in my experience
07:50<TrueBrain>fsfs is simple
07:50<Celestar>only the one repo doesn't work
07:50<Celestar>the others do
07:50<Celestar>:o
07:51<Celestar>drwxr-s--- 2 svn svn 4096 2007-05-09 13:21 db
07:51<Celestar>??
07:51<TrueBrain>group stick, group read, user read/write
07:51<TrueBrain>not that weird
07:51<Celestar>yeah, but why?
07:51<TrueBrain>why not/
07:51<TrueBrain>allows anyone in group SVN to read
07:51<Celestar>dunno :P
07:51<TrueBrain>and allows svn to write
07:52<Celestar>why the stick
07:52<TrueBrain>if svn isn't in svn group ;)
07:52<Celestar>isn't there any way to even get an error message out of svn/svnadmin :P
07:53<TrueBrain>nope
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07:53<Celestar>hmpf
07:53<Celestar>what do I do now? :P
07:54<TrueBrain>as I said, you are fucked :)
07:54<TrueBrain>it might be possible to recover
07:54<Celestar>how?
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07:54<TrueBrain>but last time I tried a bdb recover.. well... I ended up switching to fsfs froma backup :)
07:54<Celestar>svnadmin recover just hangs
07:54<TrueBrain>svnadmin recover in fact can take REALLY long
07:54<Celestar>how simple is it to set up fsfs ?
07:54<TrueBrain>svnadmin create with 1.3+
07:54<TrueBrain>default is fsfs nowedays... with good reason
07:55<Celestar>this thing seems really broken
07:55<Celestar>I can't even activate DMA on the disk :o
07:55<TrueBrain>haha
07:55<TrueBrain>no backups?
07:55<TrueBrain>no RAID?
07:55<dihedral>ouch - that must hurt
07:55<Celestar>I have backups somewhere
07:56[~]dihedral likes the _somewhere_
07:56<Celestar>unless they've been overwritten because the "svnadmin hotcopy" fucked up
07:56<dihedral>ouch
07:57<Celestar>:o
07:57<Celestar>recovery completed
07:57<dihedral>:-)
07:57<Celestar>what the FUCK?
07:57<TrueBrain>as said, it takes a while :p
07:58<Celestar>no, it took 15 seconds
07:58[~]Celestar goes dumping
07:58<TrueBrain>haha
07:58<TrueBrain>enjoy :p
08:00<Celestar>ok
08:00<Celestar>worked
08:00<TrueBrain>lucky you
08:00<Celestar>note to self: make sure svnserve is not running when running svnadmin
08:01<TrueBrain>I do it all the time :p
08:01<Celestar>TrueBrain: yeah, it worked. because I just found the backups anyway :P
08:01<TrueBrain>hehe :)
08:01<TrueBrain>newsignals really are cool :)
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08:02<Celestar>svn: Berkeley DB error while opening environment for filesystem /srv/svn/mglet/db:
08:02<Celestar>:o
08:02<TrueBrain>or anyway, the routingrestrictions :)
08:02<TrueBrain>Celestar: swtich to fsfs :)
08:03<Celestar>TrueBrain: I'm trying to
08:03<Celestar>but I first need to dump all the repos in there
08:03<Celestar>and upgrade the server
08:03<Celestar>which is the only mail server at this department
08:03<TrueBrain>auch :)
08:03<Celestar>plus the system drive cannot do DMA anymore
08:03<Celestar>an svndump on a 17MB repo drives the load up to 12
08:04<Celestar>and no one can send mail while I do it
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08:04<TrueBrain>but by the looks of it, if you don't do it now, it will shut down itself very soon :p
08:04<Celestar>yes, I'm waiting for itself to do so
08:08<Celestar>because that fucking system still runs suse 9.1
08:08<Celestar>VERY up-to-date
08:08<TrueBrain>:)
08:09<dihedral>Celestar: never change a running system :-D
08:09<Celestar>it'S not running
08:09<Celestar>not really
08:09<Celestar>it's liming
08:09<dihedral>it was a helping excuse to why it had not been updated...
08:09<TrueBrain>[13:39] <Ammler> its a nice thrad, with flipflops etc. <- where? :p
08:10<Celestar>dihedral: because $BOSS things a 7-year old mailserver is ok
08:10<dihedral>uh
08:10<dihedral>/beautifyl/
08:10<dihedral>_NOT_
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08:12<dihedral>what kind of Boss do you have Celestar
08:12<dihedral>that must be a really greedy person
08:13<dihedral>not even wanting to invest a little in an upgrade
08:13<TrueBrain>dihedral: not really.. just any boss
08:13<Celestar>I'm a grad student ...
08:13<Celestar>need I say more?
08:13<TrueBrain>if it aint broken, don't fix it
08:13<Celestar>TrueBrain: how much more broken than "DMA doesn't work" does it have to get?
08:13<TrueBrain>Celestar: failure to spin-up :p
08:13<dihedral>lol
08:14<dihedral>at least a defect in 50% of the available sectors :-D
08:14<Celestar>I'm going to put a screwdriver through the mainboard
08:15<TrueBrain>Celestar: enjoy :)
08:15<dihedral>take some pictures
08:15<dihedral>and share it with us :-P
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08:23<Ammller>TrueBrain: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26364&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nand
08:23<TrueBrain>I just found it :)
08:28<dihedral>what possible advantage would nand signalling bring...?
08:29<TrueBrain>all logic circuits become possible
08:29<dihedral>true
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08:30<TrueBrain>so you can make any programmable signal with it
08:30<TrueBrain>just it consumes space :p
08:30<TrueBrain>in fact, a NAND isn't needed, a NOT does the same
08:31<TrueBrain>but... takes more room :p
08:32<dihedral>yes
08:32<dihedral>how likeley for that to make it's way into trunk?
08:33<Celestar>I _hate_ users
08:33<TrueBrain>dihedral: who knows :)
08:33<dihedral>was just wondering :-P
08:33<Celestar>"I have activated the remote thingy" --- Me: "Ok it doesn't work, let's check your network cabling" --- "Oh, I need to activate the network for the remotedesktop to work?"
08:34<dihedral>LOL
08:34<Celestar>no dumbfart, it works by telepathy
08:34<dihedral>it does/
08:34<dihedral>?
08:34<dihedral>:-P
08:34<dihedral>Celestar: sit down and have a mug of hot tea :-P
08:34<dihedral>with a ginger nut cooky
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08:37[~]dihedral greets glx
08:40<TrueBrain>dihedral: btw, I more wonder what is more useful... NAND is nice and all, but via, for example, Squirrel, it would be even more useful
08:40<TrueBrain>but, that would be kind of slow, somehow :p
08:40<Celestar>dihedral: I'm having tea already :P
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08:40[~]dihedral hopes Celestar is not drinking earl grey
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08:45<Celestar>dihedral: why's that?
08:46<dihedral>you could just as well desolve some soap in hot water :-P
08:46<dihedral>j/k
08:46<dihedral>just a personal dislike
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08:50<Celestar>I like Earl Grey, but not every day
08:55<Celestar>TrueBrain: about the spam .... :)
08:55<TrueBrain>Celestar: which?
08:57<Celestar>the stuff we're getting on the mailing lists?
08:57<TrueBrain>I wouldn't know, not signed on to it
08:58<Celestar>he ok :P
08:58<TrueBrain>if you received spam on it, please email me the header
08:58<Celestar>but you wanted to reduce it "big time", right?
08:58<TrueBrain>it should be gone
08:59<Celestar>k I'll monitor it
08:59<Celestar>;)
08:59<+glx>wb Celestar :)
08:59<TrueBrain>so you didn't receive any last days?
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08:59<Celestar>TrueBrain: I did
08:59<Celestar>I think .. *goes checking*
09:00<Celestar>TrueBrain: about 30 messages today
09:00<TrueBrain>from the SVN maillist?
09:00<TrueBrain>don't you mean your openttd.org account?
09:00<Celestar>dev mailing list
09:01<TrueBrain>the devmaillist should be dead
09:01<TrueBrain>let me check
09:01<Celestar>hm..
09:01<Celestar>where is my account? :P
09:01<Celestar>I really have to sort out my mail accounts
09:01<TrueBrain>no, the devmaillist still is dead
09:01<TrueBrain>so I really have no idea about wha tmails you talk
09:01<TrueBrain>(via BCCs)
09:01<Celestar>yeah apparently
09:02<TrueBrain>now we are both on a spam-list again
09:02<TrueBrain>(IRC-logs)
09:02<Celestar>yeah I know
09:02|-|Arpad [~Gali@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:02<Celestar>but I think these addies are on plenty of lists anyway already :P
09:02<+glx>TrueBrain: only you ;)
09:02<TrueBrain>it aint that bad, but yes
09:02<TrueBrain>glx: I misspelled his on purpose :)
09:02<TrueBrain>he didn't mine, I hate Celestar for that now :p
09:02<TrueBrain>hehe :)
09:03<Celestar>:P
09:03<Celestar>so where do I deactivate the forwarding of the openttd.org addy?
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09:03<varun>hi
09:03<TrueBrain>Celestar: if you want, I can do that for you
09:03<TrueBrain>hi varun
09:03<Celestar>TrueBrain: _please_ do so for the time being
09:03<Celestar>thanks :)
09:03<varun>just got one stupid question
09:03<Celestar>bbl
09:04<TrueBrain>Celestar: done
09:04<TrueBrain>Celestar: despite the 2 spam-filters, spam nowedays is hard to filter :(
09:04<varun>when i wanna run a dedicated server behind a router ... which ip adress does connect_to_ip have to have? my internet ip or the "lan" ip adress of the router?
09:04[~]glx needs to check the junk box (76 mails in it)
09:05<TrueBrain>varun: your LAN IP should be fine
09:06<varun>ok thx
09:06<+glx>connect_to_ip is only used by client
09:06<TrueBrain>exactly ;)
09:07<varun>well the wiki sez i have to set it to my routers ip adress ...
09:07<varun>well thx anyway
09:07<TrueBrain>varun: then the wiki is wrong :)
09:07<TrueBrain>for the server-listing it uses the IP it gets from your advertise
09:07<TrueBrain>so you only have to bind to the right IP, which can't go wrong with 1 IP :)
09:08<varun>^^
09:08<varun>ok thank you
09:09<varun>bye
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09:13<unkie>i have installed the ECs new indutry vectors. What do i have to do to get vehicles which can actually transport the new goods?
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09:16<@Belugas>isn't that question been answered on the forums??
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09:17<Celestar>TrueBrain: greylisting does a good job
09:18<TrueBrain>Celestar: you are right, the greylist results on an other server are pretty good
09:18<TrueBrain>openttd just runs exim, which didn't had greylisting support last time I tried :(
09:18<Celestar>TrueBrain: I see, we're using greylisting @ work and we get less than one spam message per 24 hours
09:19<TrueBrain>hehe
09:19<TrueBrain>I wish I would reach that number ;)
09:19<TrueBrain>even with greylisting the spam-hit is 60+% last time I checked :)
09:19<Celestar>I wish we would finally all ditch SMTP and use something more sane :P
09:19<TrueBrain>(but okay, on a volume of 10000+, over 100+ domains
09:19<TrueBrain>Celestar: like? :)
09:19<Celestar>SFSMTP ?
09:19<Celestar>:P
09:20<Celestar>don't google it, I just made it up :P
09:20<TrueBrain>make it, and you might get rich ;)
09:22<Celestar>well, let'S so it together :P
09:22<TrueBrain>I am in :)
09:23<Celestar>when do we meet? ;)
09:23<TrueBrain>now? :p
09:23<Celestar>er ok
09:23<Celestar>Scotty??
09:23<TrueBrain>@seen Scotty
09:23<DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I have not seen Scotty.
09:24<dihedral>lol
09:25<@Belugas>Scotty is in orbit, right now :P
09:25<@Belugas>and for a lng time, i think!
09:26<Celestar>:P
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09:28<unkie>Belugas: probably, i guess i'll have a look there
09:28<dihedral>in orbit?
09:29<unkie>yes, my craft leaves in a few mins
09:30<unkie>currently packing some extra astronaut food
09:33<dihedral>you can move faster if you leave off the heat shield
09:34<dihedral>:-P
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09:44<@Belugas>dihedral, the guy who played Scotty died and asked (by testament) for his hashes to be sent in orbit, which it has been granted "recently".
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09:45<dihedral>Belugas: crazy world... i prefer keeping my 'hasches' on my keyboard :-P
09:45<dihedral>*'hashes'
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09:48<TrueBrain>Celestar: and a tnx to you, I finally came around finding a greylistd for exim, and installed it on openttd.org :)
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09:51<TrueBrain>hmm, it only doesn't work :p Lol
09:51<TrueBrain>it keeps on greylisting
09:51<Gonozal_VIII>"greylisting"?
09:51<@Belugas>listing of extra terrestrials on earth ;)
09:52<Gonozal_VIII>aaaaah^^
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10:02<@Belugas>hashes to action, funk to funky, we know Major Tom's a junky...
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10:03<TrueBrain>yippie, openttd.org has working greylisting; now that is useful :)
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10:29|-|mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
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10:30<Celestar>TrueBrain: cool
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10:38<TrueBrain>greylistd, the python version debian uses, really is very nice
10:39<TrueBrain>Celestar: talking about cool, have you seen my webtt already? :p
10:40<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
10:40<hylje>F40PH
10:46<TrueBrain>lalala
10:50|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
10:50<SmatZ>hello
10:50<Gonozal_VIII>hi
10:52<TrueBrain>hi SmatZ
10:52<TrueBrain>you ever sent the email about profiling? :)
10:52<SmatZ>TrueBrain: not yet
10:52<SmatZ>I haven't found any way how to do it
10:53<TrueBrain>do what?
10:53<SmatZ>I didn't receive any email I could reply to...
10:53<TrueBrain>hehe
10:53<TrueBrain>so you signed on after the conversation? :)
10:53<SmatZ>maybe I have bad settings somewhere
10:53<SmatZ>I received just Patch Digest, Vol 1, Issue 1
10:54<TrueBrain>ah, you have digest on :)
10:54<TrueBrain>so you receive a summary every day
10:54<SmatZ>with all emails in one
10:54<TrueBrain>that is what digest is :)
10:54<SmatZ>probably :)
10:54<TrueBrain>so replying to that is hard
10:55<SmatZ>yes, I will turn off Digest
10:55<TrueBrain>:)
10:57<SmatZ>ok, done
11:00<LeviathNL>Ammler, I noticed there was a little typo in the tempsnow.grf description. I fixed it you may want to replace the one in the coop-pack with this new one. Only problem is it's ID changed
11:03<MiHaMeK>http://xkcd.com/242/
11:03<Gonozal_VIII>yay xkcd
11:20[~]SpComb requests for his digest to be sent in orbit
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11:29<valhallasw>TrueBrain: the python version debian uses? is that not like... version 2.2 or something? :P
11:30[~]valhallasw still things CS should be taught in python -_-
11:30<Eddi|zuHause2>CS should not be taught in any specific language at all
11:31<hylje>from my experience python makes one fight the language less
11:31<hylje>so i think it's justified
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>and i am not a big fan of dynamic python
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>err...
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>dynamic typing
11:32<Eddi|zuHause2>of course, python has a lot of good things
11:32<Eddi|zuHause2>like the native lists and dictionaries
11:32<@Belugas>as any languages/devving environnement
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause2>but really, CS is not there to teach people to be <specific language>-masters
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>because whatever language is "hip" when you start studying, will be totally out of date by the time you finish and want to enter a real company
11:34<Eddi|zuHause2>what CS should teach is to easily adapt to the next "hip" language
11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. especially for newbie programmers, it should be more appropriate to have a really "strict" language
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>the more dirty tricks they learn at the beginning, the more they cry when the next language does not support that trick
11:37<hylje>python is very strict on a level
11:37<hylje>when one does stuff that's deemed stupid by the greater community (or just a seasoned user), ridicule ensues
11:38<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: python is dynamic, but strongly typed
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11:38<valhallasw>but warnings when re-using a variable would be nice :)
11:38<valhallasw>because re-using a variable - except in a loop, a counter, etc - in general is bad
11:39<hylje>would changing a string institute reusing a var?
11:39<valhallasw>hmm
11:40<valhallasw>+= etc defenitly not
11:40<Eddi|zuHause2>valhallasw: such a warning probably requires static types
11:40<valhallasw>but what about text = text.replace(...)
11:40<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: it's possible to warn about type changing while interpreting
11:40<@Belugas>Long Live Delphi!
11:40<valhallasw>pascal \o/
11:40<hylje>i looked at some OP code the other day
11:40<hylje>it was quite alike to python
11:40<smoovi>pascal = schooltimes
11:40<hylje>or the other way :>
11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, especially from a compiler building view, i do not like dynamic typing
11:41<valhallasw>or rather... long live swig :)
11:41<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: from a compiler building view dynamic typing is evil, true.
11:41<hylje>there are folks who intend to work all of python in a compiled/JIT way
11:42<valhallasw>but from an interpreter view it is not important, really
11:42<valhallasw>or rather less important
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a project where they want to check order of function calls against a protocol
11:43<hylje>:o
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>and that requires to get to know which functions may actually be called at a certain program point
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>and that is really tricky, when you can do stuff like:
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>y=x
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>y()
11:43<valhallasw>not really
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>valhallasw: statically decidable
11:43<@Belugas>Pascal = comfy programming. Lots of stuff been handled under the hood
11:43<hylje>dynamic stuff is harder to optimize, yes
11:44<valhallasw>just let the function check whether it is allowed to be called
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>again, statically
11:44<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause2: as in: hard to determine for a compiler
11:44<valhallasw>hmm
11:45<valhallasw>but still it should be possible to test against some state machine?
11:45<valhallasw>oh, wait
11:45<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning, you compile the code without running it, and the result is either "good" or "here is a way to break the protocol: a(), b(), x()"
11:45<valhallasw>yeah, okay, then I get the problem
11:45<hylje>the programmer is expected to have a clue
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>the actual check is somebody elses job
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>my job is to convert python and c++ code into a "process rewrite system" of the structure "in state A, there can be executed function b, which spawns a new thread in state B and continues in state C"
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>(this would look like: "A-b->B||C"
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>)
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>a conventional function call would look like "A-b->B.C"
11:50<Eddi|zuHause2>the tricky part about that, in the above example, you have to get to statically decide that when you call y(), you actually call x()
11:51<hylje>:o
11:51<Eddi|zuHause2>note, that the assignment y=x and the call y() may be in completely different parts of the program
11:52<hylje>context
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>like in one function you do:
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>a.y=x
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>f(a)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>and in f you do
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>a.y()
11:53<SmatZ>mmmm function pointers :-)
11:53<Eddi|zuHause2>honestly, pointers are way worse ;)
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11:54<SmatZ>maybe ... I am happy with what I know :-p
11:55<Eddi|zuHause2>in the above example you could at least say: "well, i know here is an assignment to y, so for all calls y(), i nondeterministically call either x or y"
11:55<Eddi|zuHause2>try to do that with (x+y)*()
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>(note, i have no clue about C syntax)
11:56<SmatZ>what would that be good for?
11:57|-|DaleStan_ changed nick to DaleStan
11:57<Eddi|zuHause2>it's not about "what is this good for", it's about "the language allows this"
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11:57<varun>hello again
11:58<hylje>hi
11:58<SmatZ>what about function that returns pointer to itself?
11:58<SmatZ>hello
11:59<varun>can anybody tell me why my dedicated server aint accessible via the internet ?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause2>in context of a alias-analysis, pointers are probably the worst case
11:59<varun>is there some kinda trick or something (besides opening the port thingie )
11:59<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: yes...
12:00<varun>ehm ?
12:00<SmatZ>varun: I don't know... often somebody says he has this prrrrrrrrrrroblem, but I don't know the solution... maybe you have blocked some ports you shouldn't have
12:01<+glx>varun: server advertised?
12:01<+glx>port open and forwarded for UDP and TCP?
12:02<varun>all done
12:02<varun>(sorry for me not being to precise )
12:02<varun>(what does error 22 or error 101 mean ? ?)
12:03<+glx>I don't know
12:04<varun>hmmm
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12:10<varun>SmatZ: if someone would make error messages which ppl could understand i wouldnt be her askin you these stupid questions ....
12:10<+glx>these errors are OS specific errors I think
12:12<varun>??
12:12<varun>they only appear when the server is running and someone tries to connect to it
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12:16<+glx>what are the exact messages?
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12:18<varun>sec
12:18<varun>just rebooted the machine
12:20<varun>well it keeps tellin me that somebody queried it ?oO
12:21<+glx>that's ok
12:21<varun>ok
12:21<+glx>can you see it on http://servers.openttd.org
12:21<+glx>?
12:22<varun>yep
12:22<varun>(search for varun in that page ;) )
12:22<+glx>so it is accessible :)
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12:23<varun>well try to join it
12:25<+glx>password needed but I have it in the list
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13:15<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I have finished the profiling, now I would like to post it to the maillist... could you please post something I could reply to? I hope I will receive that email
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13:29<Ammler>SmatZ: maillist? why not in the forums? is that a secret?
13:30<+glx>Ammler: patch tracker is now a maillist
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13:33<Ammler>ah, its also public
13:38<SmatZ>:)
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14:13<henkiepenkie>Hi all. Any developpers/coders online?
14:14<SmatZ>henkiepenkie: don't ask to ask, just ask
14:14<SmatZ>somebody will reply sooner or later
14:16<henkiepenkie>:)
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14:17<Gonozal_VIII>?
14:17<Gonozal_VIII>what was that?
14:17<Noldo>no idea
14:21<@Belugas>a strange fellow, for sure
14:22|-|Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-108-106.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd
14:39<dihedral>amusing - that's what it is :-P
14:41|-|LeviathNL [~thomas@z037133.its-s.tudelft.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:53<TrueBrain>SmatZ: random seeds are stored in savegame, so that is fine
14:53<TrueBrain>gone again :)
14:53<TrueBrain>(nice post btw!)
14:53<TrueBrain>(oh, and it didn't make the thread, but that is no suprise to me :)
14:53<TrueBrain>hehe
14:53<TrueBrain>don't worry about it :)
14:53<TrueBrain>bye :)
14:54<hylje>:o
14:54<Gonozal_VIII>:S
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>!logs
15:07<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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15:13<Wolf01>hello
15:13<Gonozal_VIII>hi
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15:26<skidd13>Hi
15:26<Gonozal_VIII>hi
15:26<Wolf01>hi
15:26<SmatZ>hi
15:27<skidd13>SmatZ: Thanks for profiling. I'm currently at a 'small' perl script wich compares all the functions of two profiling sessions :)
15:28<SmatZ>ok:)
15:28<skidd13>Might be usefull IMO
15:29<skidd13>SmatZ: Any values or ratios that might be usefull to calculate?
15:30<SmatZ>skidd13: I don't know... I just look into the profile and compare the time some function took
15:30<SmatZ>compare version without and with a patch
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15:31<skidd13>The script will compare every function :)
15:31<SmatZ>I just compared your patch against trunk, and it seem to be the same speed with maximum optimisation, and it is faster with default optimizations
15:31<SmatZ>skidd13: to compare the time took xxx ticks of game, I use 'time'...
15:32<SmatZ>the data are not perfect
15:32<SmatZ>it may differ among different runs
15:32<skidd13>I'd use time/calls
15:32<SmatZ>so ... if you compare every function, it will print little differences where there should be none
15:33<skidd13>SmatZ: Maybe a little filter does the job therefore ;)
15:33<SmatZ>yes :)
15:34<skidd13>I'll release the sript under CC BY NC if anyone likes to use it.
15:35<SmatZ>a nice name for a licence :)
15:40|-|Cool-Matte changed nick to Matte
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15:58<skidd13>Anyone can help explain me this: Unmatched ( in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/TileLoopClearHelper( <-- HERE ()/ at comparer.pl line 168.
15:59<Rubidium>( starts a grouping of some kind
15:59<Rubidium>you probably have to escape it
15:59<Rubidium>like \(
15:59<skidd13>I want to search for the ( and did it $line =~ s/\w{2,}\(//;
16:00<skidd13>Rubidium: Is there a special escape for ( ?
16:08<Rubidium>no idea; haven't coded a single line of perl in my life.
16:08<Rubidium>all my regexp experience is in sed and awk ;)
16:11<skidd13>Hmm. I recoded it different. Works so.
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16:24|-|Guest115 changed nick to chu_
16:24<chu_>hi
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>hi
16:26<chu_>is there a known problem with the pathfinder of the current svn-head?
16:27<chu_>all my busses went crazy today
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>"went crazy" ?
16:27<chu_>it looks as if the drive a depth-first-search
16:28<chu_>as if the pathfinder was interrupted in it's work to find the shortest way
16:28<Rubidium>skidd13? Did you do that?
16:28<skidd13>chu_: There has been a problem recently but it has been fixed.
16:28<chu_>skidd13: already in svn?
16:28<Rubidium>depends on what "current" is
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16:28<skidd13>should be in SVN
16:28<chu_>skidd13: ok. i'll try it
16:28<Rubidium>still, depends on what chu_ means with "current svn-head"
16:28<skidd13>was a "!=" <- "=="
16:29<chu_>11386
16:29<Rubidium>then nothing has been fixed
16:29<chu_>(funny- that's my user-number with my isp too :-)
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>why is there no new nightly?
16:29<Rubidium>or at least, the fix skidd13 was talking about didn't fix it
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16:29<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: want to guess?
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>ah logs...
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16:30<Gonozal_VIII>no logs :S
16:31<Wolf01>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/1881583549_ca6bcae9be.jpg uhm train engine mixed with an icbm
16:31<chu_>Rubidium: oh. it seems, it did fix the problem.
16:31<Rubidium>then you weren't running "current svn-head"
16:31<chu_>alt least the buses go on tour again *G*
16:32<chu_>Rubidium: yes. you are right. i forgot to "make" the game
16:32<chu_>but the source was "svn up"ed
16:33<chu_>ok. thanks for all your work. and
16:33<chu_>good night
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16:35<Gonozal_VIII>[22:29:53] Rubidium: Gonozal_VIII: want to guess? <-- nothing changed? but there are always changes...
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16:35<Rubidium>not the last 27:35 hours
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16:42<TrueBrain>[22:29] <Rubidium> then nothing has been fixed <- I triple checked it, so I was sure it was ;)
16:42<TrueBrain>(I wouldn't dare to leave such a bug too long in trunk ;))
16:43<Rubidium>TrueBrain: under the assumption that he was running r11386 and trunk was at r11386 at that moment there would not be a fix in trunk that would solve his problem
16:44<TrueBrain>Rubidium: your assumption is logic, no doubt about it, but I was sure he did something wrong :)
16:44<|fjb|>He was running r11384. :-)
16:44|-||fjb| changed nick to fjb
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16:49<skidd13>is ther something like ceil or round in perl?
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16:51<Rubidium>yes
16:51<Rubidium>otherwise it couldn't be that popular ;)
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16:56<skidd13>Hmm you have to cast it to an in. Bah. Or include it from the system but only on posix.
16:56<skidd13>Not that nice.
16:58<Rubidium>then it's a stupid API
16:59<fjb>skidd13: Math::BigFloat has the fuction fround. Maybe that helps you.
17:00<skidd13>fjb: use POSIX qw(ceil floor); worked for me
17:04<skidd13>SmatZ: Do you like to try my script. The first working version is ready
17:04<skidd13>Where can I upload the script to compare two profiling outputs?
17:04<fjb>Hm, what Do I do if there is no room left for planting trees? :-(
17:05<skidd13>fjb: remove all and start again
17:06[~]fjb doupts that that is a proper solution...
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17:13<SmatZ>skidd13: I dont know where to upload, don't you have some web server?
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17:13<skidd13>TrueBrain: I hope the result is enough profiling for you ;)
17:14<skidd13>SmatZ: Nope. Now it comes via maillist.
17:14<Wolf01>'night
17:14<skidd13>night Wolf01
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17:15<SmatZ>ah
17:15<skidd13>There's some room for optimisation, but it works... ;)
17:16<fjb>Does the AI never do upgrades on their vehicles?
17:20<skidd13>SmatZ: Did you recieved the mail, cause I don't see it on the patch-archieve
17:21<TrueBrain>skidd13: if you can post your new patch ;)
17:21<TrueBrain>(with the -- stuff ;))
17:21<skidd13>TrueBrain: Satisfied?
17:22<TrueBrain>yes :)
17:23<SmatZ>skidd13: yes :)
17:23<SmatZ> StartStopIndustryTileAnimation(): 3438
17:23<SmatZ>errr :D
17:24<skidd13>Neat :)
17:24<SmatZ> TrainCheckIfLineEnds(): 200
17:24<SmatZ>3 times faster?
17:24<skidd13>Did you got other experiences?
17:26<SmatZ>I wonder if it is caused by inexact measurements
17:26<SmatZ>or if it really is 3 times faster
17:27<skidd13>Might both be, but you should get an impression if it's faster.
17:27<skidd13>:%s /both//g
17:28<SmatZ>it is hard to notice, the difference was ~2% when compiled with default settings
17:29<skidd13>SmatZ: The problem is that even if it is that fast. There are also some functions that have a loss of performance.
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17:31<SmatZ>it is hard to decida how things changed, when you have so few data
17:31<SmatZ>eg. if it chages from 1,5 seconds to 1,2, it is good
17:32<SmatZ>but when it changes from 0.09 to 0.03... it is hard to say
17:33<skidd13>SmatZ: If you like you can adapt my perl script that way that only the stuff, of that you think wich is important, is noticed
17:33<SmatZ>skidd13: the generated ASM code is almost the same in both cases...
17:33<SmatZ>it cannot cause 3x faster code at all
17:33<SmatZ>:-(
17:34<skidd13>SmatZ::(
17:35<skidd13>SmatZ: I removed a few GB in FindFirstBit2x64 might be that this causes a bit speedup.
17:36<SmatZ>skidd13: but is seems to be better
17:36<SmatZ>GB(~t, 4, 4) was compiled as
17:36<SmatZ> shr %al, 4
17:36<SmatZ> and %eax, 15
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17:36<SmatZ>and now it is compiled
17:36<SmatZ> shr %eax, 4
17:37<skidd13>SmatZ: I've to say that I never learned assembler :(
17:37<SmatZ>it's ok
17:38<SmatZ>just - originally, it did shift and did one useless mask
17:38<SmatZ>now it does just the shift
17:38<skidd13>Sounds nice
17:38<SmatZ>but it may be just a luck :)
17:38<SmatZ>compilers are very complicated piece of software
17:39<skidd13>Agreedd
17:39<skidd13>:%s /dd/d/
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>so you are now skid13? :p
17:39<SmatZ>:)
17:40<SmatZ>return (x >> s) & ((1U << n) - 1);
17:40<SmatZ>isn't it a bit dangerous?
17:40<SmatZ>when working with 64bit values
17:40<SmatZ>eg., if n >= 32, how will it behave?
17:41<SmatZ>but ok, compiler will give a warning about it
17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>n should never be bigger than the bit size
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>above that, behaviour is undefined
17:41<SmatZ>x can be 64bit, but 1U is usually 32bit
17:42<skidd13>The problem with the stuff is that templates could be used on custom incomplete types and therefore sizeof() is not realy helpfull
17:42<SmatZ>I am not sure how C defines this situation - isn't the shift value masked with (bit_width-1)?
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>c defines that it is undefined
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>the processor does whatever it does
17:43<skidd13>SmatZ: A cast migth secure that stuff
17:44<skidd13>return (x >> s) & (T)((1U << n) - 1);
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17:44<SmatZ>maybe (x >> s) & (((T)1) << n) - 1);
17:45<SmatZ>when the '1' is shifted out too much, then the mask will be 0xfffff...
17:45<skidd13>yup, agreed
17:50<skidd13>TrueBrain: Do I need to update the patch with the stuff SmatZ mentioned or ..
17:52<SmatZ>skidd13: I changed 1U to ((T)1)
17:52<SmatZ>and it seems to compile exactly same
17:52<Eddi|zuHause2>all templates should be resolved by the time you get to code generation
17:53<SmatZ>well.. I heard something about using typename
17:53<SmatZ>eg. situations where typename is required
17:53|-|Osai^Kendo changed nick to Osai
17:53<SmatZ>that it is very hard to optimise
17:54<SmatZ>generated ASM is combined with inlined C code...
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>that was probably about polymorphy
17:54<SmatZ>I don't know, maybe things have changed
17:54<SmatZ>I don't know, never seen that actually
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>polymorphy is resolved at runtime
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>templates are resolved at compile time
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17:56<SmatZ>I would have to imagine the situation
17:56<SmatZ>but I am not skilled in C++...
17:57<Eddi|zuHause2>it's like this in all other object oriented languages
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>if you have a class A with function f(), and a function B derived from A, which overrides f() with its own version
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>you can assign objects of B to variables of type A
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>A a = new B()
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>a.f()
17:58<SmatZ>do you mean virtual functions etc.?
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>yes
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>whereas templates are an improved version of the preprocessor
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>every template type is replaced by a real type before compilation
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>the code is copied for each different type that template is instantiated to
18:00<SmatZ>I am just talking what I heard, I don't know "anything" about it, so...
18:00<SmatZ>this is what I would think, too
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18:06<SmatZ>I get this warning, when run with -Weffc++:
18:06<SmatZ> /mnt/svn/openttd-rev/src/ai/../helpers.hpp:211: warning: postfix 'OverflowSafeInt<T, T_MAX, T_MIN>& OverflowSafeInt<T, T_MAX, T_MIN>::operator++(int) [with T = long long int, T T_MAX = 9223372036854775807ll, T T_MIN = -0x08000000000000000ll]' should return 'OverflowSafeInt<long long int, 9223372036854775807ll, -0x08000000000000000ll>'
18:06<SmatZ>what do you think about it?
18:06|-|Gonozal_VIII [user@cm56-182-132.liwest.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:06<SmatZ>eg.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>what's that supposed to mean?
18:06<SmatZ>it returns the increased value, doesn't it?
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18:07<SmatZ>postfix ++ returns reference to this
18:07<SmatZ>but it should return OverflowSafeInt(*this)
18:07<SmatZ>maybe, I don't know
18:07<SmatZ>helpers.cpp
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, it looks like a type issue
18:08<SmatZ>FORCEINLINE OverflowSafeInt& operator ++ (int) { return *this += 1; }
18:08<SmatZ>hmm yes
18:08<SmatZ>it returns the new value
18:08<SmatZ>but it should return old value
18:08<SmatZ>anyway...
18:08<SmatZ>Money++ is not used anywhere in the code
18:10|-|Roujin [~Roujin@mnch-4d042768.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
18:10<SmatZ>similiar TinyEnumT
18:11<SmatZ>I will post a bugreport...
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18:11<skidd13>good night
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18:15<Roujin>i feel humiliated
18:15<Roujin>a tool is more intelligent than me
18:15<SmatZ>:-)
18:15<Roujin>buildottd manages to build the latest revision and i don't >_<
18:16<Roujin>i get some strange issues with heightmap.o ...
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>./configure --with-png?
18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>you should probably report that
18:18<Roujin>what's that with configure...?
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18:19<Roujin>i'm not really experienced with all that...
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you need pnglib installed to open png files (e.g. heightmap images)
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>configure should figure out if you have it installed or not
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>and if you configured without png support, you should not get errors
18:21<Roujin>i don't run linux... so i guess i don't have this configure
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>so unless you manually altered your configuration, there should be no problems
18:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11387 /trunk/src/macros.h: -Codechange: changed many macros.h #defines to static inline functions (patch by skidd13, with a big tnx to SmatZ for profiling!)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>mingw also uses configure
18:22<Roujin>okay.. i'm using mingw.. so how do i do this configure then?
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>at the same place where you run make
18:27<SmatZ>wow big tnx to me :-))))
18:28<Eddi|zuHause2>better have big THX ;)
18:28<SmatZ>:)
18:28<TrueBrain>bad SmatZ
18:28<SmatZ>:-(
18:28<SmatZ>FS is dead :(
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18:29<TrueBrain>SmatZ: FS is for bugs
18:29<SmatZ>ah!
18:29<TrueBrain>in case you misesd all the topics
18:29<TrueBrain>information
18:29<TrueBrain>and talk here
18:29<SmatZ>I though it the maillist is still in testing phase
18:29<TrueBrain>and how else to test? :)
18:29<SmatZ>:-)
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18:31<TrueBrain>hmm, bug in Pipermail I created..
18:31<TrueBrain>will fix it some other day :) At least it shows patches now ;)
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18:33<SmatZ>yes, it is much better
18:33<TrueBrain>I like better
18:34<TrueBrain>better is good :p
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18:34<SmatZ>"Patches no longer should go to this bugtracker, but to patch at openttd.org. See http://www.openttd.org/dev.php for more info." is written with very small font... but I admire, I wouldn't read it even if it were written in a big red font...
18:35<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I hate that red font ... who reads that? :)
18:35<TrueBrain>so I thought a small text would get more attention ;)
18:35<SmatZ>yes, a genial thought
18:35<TrueBrain>too bad it failed ;) Hehe :)
18:35<Eddi|zuHause2>it's like naming a file "donotreadme" :p
18:35<SmatZ>it failed just for me... so far :)
18:35<SmatZ>:-D
18:36<SmatZ>"Do not push this button"
18:36<TrueBrain>hmm, Pipermail is weird... your patch now is inline
18:37<SmatZ>yes it is inline
18:37<SmatZ>but it was sent as attachment
18:38<TrueBrain>Pipermail should make it not-inline
18:38<TrueBrain>which is weird
18:38<TrueBrain>more bugs :p
18:38<SmatZ>:)
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>post them to the bugtracker ;p
18:39|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
18:39<SmatZ>what about making all base classes' destructors virtual?
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>are there non-virtual destructors?
18:40[~]Sacro considers trying openttd on his solaris machin
18:40<Sacro>*machine
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18:43<TrueBrain>night all
18:43<SmatZ>OldMemoryPoolBase is base class for OldMemoryPool
18:43<SmatZ>but doesn't have defined destructor
18:43<SmatZ>night TrueBrain !
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe it's an abstract class?
18:45<SmatZ>doesn't look so
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18:45<SmatZ>I am reporting this because
18:45<Eddi|zuHause2>there's no need for destructors if you can't create objects of this class
18:45<SmatZ>compiler gives me a warning
18:46<SmatZ> /mnt/svn/openttd/trunk/src/oldpool.h:100: warning: base class 'struct OldMemoryPoolBase' has a non-virtual destructor
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>well, _somebody_ was supposed to provide a reimplementation of the pools anyway :p
18:46<SmatZ>:-D
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>task pending since like 2 years or so :p
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>for 2 years?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>i never get this right...
18:47<SmatZ>:)
18:47<SmatZ>I really can't do that, I have different tasks assigned
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 07 00:00:49 2007