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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-07

---Logopened Wed Nov 07 00:00:49 2007
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00:54<mikk36|w>has the "world logics" thingie changed or what ?
00:54<mikk36|w>no more quick production increase etc ?
00:55<mikk36|w>the greatest thing is that... yesterday when i went to sleep, i had a properly working company
00:55<mikk36|w>today morning - bankrupt
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00:55<mikk36|w>cause: seems that an oil refinery has disappeared
00:55<mikk36|w>and that was the last refinery :P
00:57<mikk36|w>oh, nice...
00:57<mikk36|w>1,656,000 litres of water in a month
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01:33<Rubidium>mikk36|w: changed since when?
01:34<mikk36|w>0.5.3 ?
01:36<Rubidium>so a difference between trunk and 0.5.3? or some other pair of versions?
01:37<Rubidium>and are you using any newindustries GRFs?
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01:39<mikk36|w>just urks and trams
01:39<mikk36|w>in desert
01:39<Rubidium>then there shouldn't be much change
01:40<mikk36|w>strange then
01:40<Rubidium>what trunk revision are you using by the way?
01:40<mikk36|w>year was about 2130 or so
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01:40<mikk36|w>and still only a few primary industries were over 200k
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02:22<mikk36|w>other than that, it's much more fun building than in 0.5.3
02:23<mikk36|w>the biggest enjoyment is the bridge stuff
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02:23<mikk36|w>no more headaches with other players :)
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03:08<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
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05:44<Unknown_Entity>TrueBrain: are you around?
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06:08<Jumpingmanjim>anyone here?
06:15<Unknown_Entity>I'm here, but I doubt that I can help you
06:15<Jumpingmanjim>oh ok
06:15<Jumpingmanjim>i had an idea
06:16<Jumpingmanjim>maybe the openttd guys could sell merchandise
06:16<Jumpingmanjim>t shirts and stuff
06:17<Unknown_Entity>That could cause trouble though. Because they don't have the rights do graphics and such
06:18<dihedral>Unknown_Entity: then use different graphics :-P
06:18<Jumpingmanjim>hmmm i thought about that
06:18<Jumpingmanjim>maybe just the logo?
06:18<Jumpingmanjim>or some original designs
06:18<Jumpingmanjim>slogans and stuff
06:19<Unknown_Entity>the logo would be ok i think
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06:19<Jumpingmanjim>and it would help support the project
06:20<Jumpingmanjim>actually is there any of the main devs here?
06:20<Unknown_Entity>i don't think so. i need one as well :D
06:26<dihedral>what are you up to Unknown_Entity
06:28<Unknown_Entity>dihedral: i'm wondering why DrawSprite() sometimes gets strange SpriteIDs (like 1239123123)
06:28<Unknown_Entity>and if it's related to the problem that lots of tiles are not showing up (
06:29<Jumpingmanjim>there are about 6 months of nightly builds in the archive
06:29<Jumpingmanjim>why do we need that many?
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06:30<huma>maybe the cleanup script doesn't work? :)
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08:08<dihedral>good yawning :-P
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08:56<fjb>Hm, why must there be no bus stop under a bridge? :-(
09:01<SmatZ>maybe because lack of bits in the map array, maybe because it is unrealistic
09:01<SmatZ>similiar with depots...
09:02<SmatZ>with depots, thers is problem with rendering
09:02<SmatZ>because they are too high...
09:02<SmatZ>maybe similiar problem is with stations, too
09:05<fjb>Hm, a bus stop under a bridge is not unrealistic.
09:05<fjb>And the bridge is not coded in the map, only the bridge heads are.
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09:07<SmatZ>fjb: maybe it was in old versions, but now it is coded in the map array
09:07<SmatZ>static inline bool IsBridgeAbove(TileIndex t)
09:07<SmatZ>return GB(_m[t].m6, 6, 2) != 0;
09:09<fjb>Oh, hm, but the bus stop could harly share map bits with a bridge anyway.
09:13<Sacro>we need a new map array
09:13<Sacro>xml based :p
09:14<@Belugas>huhu... Sacro has just declared hmself volunteer for a big rewrite of the map array system
09:14<@Belugas>please, send us your work in..let say... 2 years? ;)
09:14<Sacro>oh foo :(
09:15[~]Sacro will start later
09:15<fjb>The map struct needs some claening up. Looks not that intuitive with lots of nameless bits.
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09:17<fjb>Sacro: You could implement a layerd map. That wouls allow singnals on bridges and in tunels.
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09:17<Sacro>fjb: mmm, well i'm going to uni to hand in an assignment, then maybe going climbing
09:17<Sacro>but i'll look into it later
09:21<SmatZ>fjb: I have done something that way
09:22<SmatZ>but it needs more work
09:23<fjb>SmatZ: I saw a screen shot of trains going in a circle in a tunel. Was that your screen shot?
09:24<fjb>That looked great.
09:25<SmatZ>thanks :)
09:26<SmatZ>now I am trying to solve problem with diagonal bridges
09:26<SmatZ>and bridges at all
09:26<SmatZ>how to draw them the best way
09:27<fjb>I often missed diagonal bridges and tunels.
09:28<fjb>That will be a big improvement when it gets into trunk one day.
09:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r11388 /trunk/src/helpers.hpp:
09:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: postfix ++ returned new value, should (ofcourse) be old value (SmatZ)
09:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: prefix ++ didn't exist, added it
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09:44<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
09:46<huma>SpComb, damn, sorry about the school shooting
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10:04<SpComb>it's not really related to me in any way, I just heard about it, those kind of incidents aren't very common in Finland
10:05<SpComb>based on story comments, most recent one was 15-20 years ago with a bully-victim shooting his bullys
10:07<huma>yea, that's what shocking. such a nice, cosy country and.. shame
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10:15<ln->the killer had put his plans and manifesto online before the incident.
10:17<ln->one of his finnish texts he ended with a sentence that is quite a direct translation of the phrase "Jedem das Seine".
10:24<SmatZ>strange nobody tried to stop him
10:25<huma>yea, doesn't finnish intelligence monitor the forums?
10:25<ln->some things were put online only less than an hour before the incident, some yesterday.
10:28<SmatZ>I read it has been online 14 days before the accident
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10:28<SmatZ>so I wonder if finnish students don't browse interne
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10:36<SpComb>ln-: do they still exist online? I found the YouTube video via google, but it had been removed for TOS violations...
10:37<huma>there's one on rapidshare
10:37<SpComb>SmatZ: his friends had noticed him doing shooting-related stuff, but apparently they were told it was a joke
10:37<huma>that's the guy
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10:38<TrueBrain>hi skidd13
10:38<huma>oh, TrueBrain's alive :)
10:39<skidd13>Can someone confim that the road-construction for towns is broken?
10:39<SmatZ>skidd13: in what way?
10:39<SmatZ>it is working for me
10:40<skidd13>The roadworks don't were removed. Might be that it's a compiler thing, cause I'm at UNI ATM and can't check it.
10:41<SmatZ>there is some option in TTDPatch, that engines won't ever disappear from the engine list... how is this done in OTTD?
10:41<SpComb>seven dead, 1 adult and six children?
10:41<SpComb>even Radio Rock is talking about it
10:42<SmatZ>skidd13: I just started road reonstruction in one town, i will let you know
10:42<+glx>SmatZ: vehicle never expire in patches
10:42<skidd13>SmatZ: configure patches -> Vehicles never expire
10:42<SmatZ>skidd13: yes, in is a bug
10:42<SmatZ>glx: skidd13 thanks
10:44<skidd13>Hmm, IIRC there is some usage of the new templates. I'll have a look at it later. Or if someone minds to have a look at it earlier... ;)
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15:04<SpComb> <-- it's really interesting to read his text on the right, and the YouTube comments on the left (partially in Finnish, mind)
15:05<SpComb>his text makes for an interesting analysis, and the YouTube comments then show a sample of how accurate his text is...
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15:09<Wolf01>eh, i already seen it this afternoon
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15:11<SpComb>"seen it"?
15:12<SpComb>the video's irrelevant, I'm talking about his essay on the right hand side, and the comments on the left hand side under the video
15:13<Prof_Frink>Why is SpComb still here?
15:13<SpComb>it wasn't a school shooting, it was political terrorism
15:13<SpComb>bah, youtube links and youtube links
15:13<SpComb>I'm not linking to the video, I'm linking to his essay in the video description, and how well the comments reflect the content of that
15:14<SpComb>insane, issue, americal culture, culture+nazi accusation, mind-sick, insane, insane, wacko (medical or political?), mind-sick, insane
15:17<SpComb>...america, idiot, generic, idiot, not sure, bastard, generic, idiot/insult, not sure, insane/insult, not sure, troll, mind-sick+jail, not sure, generic, wackos, ouch... "you killed my best friend", generic, burn in hell, fuck you, sick, doesn't deserve to live... need I go on?
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15:23<fjb>The more he is in the press with his full name and the more attantion he gets, the earlier this happens again. It would help, if the press would never tell the name of a person who did things like that. So he gets famous for a few hours. If the press doesn't tell his name, he will not get famous.
15:24<SpComb>indeed, it was terrorism - as far as I can tell, the reason he did it was to get his message out
15:25<SpComb>so I'm just interested in seeing how the media portrays it - will it reflect the YouTube comments, or will it actually follow what he wrote?
15:29<fjb>He murdered to get his messageout and to get famous. The more people and press talk about him, the more right he gets, and the next crazy murderer follows his path. Thinks like that are bad, but they will only stop if they only cause a small note in the press, without telling the murderers name or intentions. That is the only way to stop it.
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15:30<SpComb>fjb: I don't agree with you
15:30<SpComb>trying to supress his political message won't solve anything
15:31<fjb>Not trying to suppress a message, but supress a message, when it should get spread by killing people.
15:32<fjb>If you spread the message like he intended, his way workked. That encourages others to follow him.
15:32<SpComb>his choice of how to spread is message was stupid, and thankfully people spreading their opinions like that is very rare, in relation to how many people have political opinions
15:33<SpComb>although his means of spreading his message was somewhat relevant to his beliefs (humanity is overrated/natural selection/the human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing), I've not really considered at the relationship between those two yet
15:33<fjb>More and more people follow that way, look at the USA, look at Germany.
15:34<SpComb>fjb: Columbine and Erlangen don't have anything to do with this, those were school shootings
15:34<SpComb>as far as I can tell
15:34<SpComb>if I've remembered those correctly
15:34<SpComb>meh, this has more to do with 9/11 or such
15:35<fjb>It doens't matter if somebody shoot at a school, an university or any other place. The pattern is the same. That people get unhered and unknow till the kill some people. That makes them famous and gets their message out. Independed of what the message actually is.
15:35<SpComb>except on a smaller scale, and his beliefs aren't really so much political as about the state of our society (although there's a certain amount of politics in there as well, the "the human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing" isn't really politics though)
15:36<fjb>Everybody is free to think that, but nobody same actually does it.
15:37<fjb>That is not political, that is no terrorism, that is a sick mind trying to get attaebtion. And he got attention, he won.
15:37<fjb>sane, not same
15:38<SpComb>still don't think that supressing his message would reduce such terrorism incidents
15:38<fjb>It would not reduce terrorism as a whole, but it would reduce losome shootist getting their message into the news.
15:39<SpComb>at the cost of misunderstanding the reasons behind what has happaned
15:39<SpComb>re the YouTube comments blaming the american culture
15:40<SpComb>this incident doesn't have anything to do with gun laws either
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15:40<SpComb>unless you're only going to give gun permits to people with the correct political beliefs
15:40<fjb>What is american culture? I always thought that does not exist.
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15:40<SpComb>some kind of generic term used to represent action movies, I guess
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15:41<SpComb>perhaps it's the culture behind Columbine
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15:47<fjb>No, nobody kills real people only because he played action games. Else we would wait weeks at a station and enter the next train arriving.
15:48<Rafagd>fjb: where you're reading it
15:48<fjb>That all were lonesome people with a sick mind who tried to get attention. No culture is to blame. The friends and family are partly to blame to not see what would be coming and to help him before he got that strange ideas.
15:49<SpComb>Rafagd: we're discussing the recent incident of political terrorism at a finnish high school
15:50<fjb>That incident is at a line with Erlangen, Columbine, etc. The people murder to get attention. The more attention they get, the soner the next one will follow them.
15:50<fjb>It's plain simple, and evil.
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15:50<fjb>One step would be to let them unheard, to never tell their name. that would discourage other to follow them.
15:50<SpComb>the guy behind Erlangen got expelled from his school a couple months before it, and had continued leaving his house every day to "go to school" - his parents didn't know he was out of school
15:51<Rafagd>fjb: SpComb what is the crime's game, this time?
15:51<SpComb>don't think there were any political or ideological motives there
15:51<SpComb>Rafagd: none
15:51<fjb>Just hating mankind is no ideology.
15:52<fjb>He used some political phrases, but that makes him not different from the others.
15:53<Rafagd>SpComb: that is pretty rare, since every crime of that kind, is generally linked to a random game cenary that reminds the local
15:54<Rafagd>like that guy who shooted in everyone on a cinema => Duke Nuken
15:54<fjb>Rafagd: What game are you talking aout?
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15:55<Rafagd>fjb: wait
15:55<fjb>There is no evidence that games máke murderers. Poloticans tell that.
15:55<Rafagd>fjb: problems translating my words
15:55<SpComb>Virginia Tech - shy, frail, wary of physical contact, speculations of autism, depression, selective mutism (a social anxiety), tried to get therapy but didn't, bullied for speed difficulties, all this since early childhood
15:56<SpComb>*speech difficulties
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15:56<Rafagd>fjb: many murders that press put the blame on games
15:56<Rafagd>are said to be related to a game
15:57<Rafagd>like the guy who shooted on a cinema years ago...
15:57<SpComb>indeed, I'm waiting with interest to see how the Finnish media responds
15:58<fjb>To blame games is the easiest way to go. You don't have to think about what society did wrong, why nobody knew about his mind etc. There would be many questions to answer if you don't blame games.
15:58<fjb>Nobody wants to answer that question, not the politicians, not the press.
15:58<Rafagd>they said that he did it because of Duke Nukem's first level, where you shoot on monsters in a cinema
15:58<SpComb>yeah right
15:59<fjb>How many murderes would kill whole cities, if playing duke nukem caused that behavior?
15:59<SpComb>games don't cause violence like that - if the conditions are right, and the person is already instable/etc, then they may have some kind of effect, depending on what the conditions are
15:59<Rafagd>fjb: i think that put blame on game is so many levels wrong...
16:00<Rafagd>Someone go and kill many people
16:00<fjb>They may have an effect if the person thinks about really killing people anyway.
16:00<Rafagd>he never played a game
16:00<Rafagd>but, to argue with insanity, he put the blame on the game, and get a lessen penal
16:00<fjb>Thats right. Some of tha murderers never played games like that.
16:01<fjb>Blaming games is easy for everybody. Notbody wants to know the truth.
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16:01<Rafagd>fjb: brazil had another problem like that
16:02<Rafagd>people blaming RPG's
16:03<fjb>Games got bamed around the world. But the true reason is never a game, nowhere around the world.
16:03<SpComb>Jack Thompson
16:03<Rafagd>two or three murders had RPG books on the scene, so they got all "OMG! IT'S THE DEMON ITSELF!!one1" then bame on RPG
16:04[~]fjb played RPGs and never thought about killing anybody...
16:04[~]Rafagd has just killed his friend in real life because of RPG!!11 OMG
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16:07<fjb>Hi skidd13
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16:10<skidd13>TrueBrain: I think Rafał Rzepecki found a bug in the AB() template. ... I'm on the way to fix it.
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16:13<SpComb>oh, the Tuusula shooter died an hour ago
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16:16<SmatZ>an hour ago?
16:16<SmatZ>didn't he die afternoon?
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16:16<SpComb>he shot himself, but didn't die
16:17<skidd13>Can any dev please check the fix:
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16:19<SmatZ>does it work?
16:19<SmatZ>it doesn't update x
16:20<skidd13>My fault
16:20<skidd13>A damned typo
16:24<SmatZ>I know you didn't ask me, but :) maybe "mask" would be more intuitive name for tmp
16:25<+glx>would be more logical yes
16:27<skidd13>SmatZ, glx: If the devs feel better with mask, they should be able to do a ":%s /tmp/mask/g"
16:29<skidd13>This fixes the road construction error too :)
16:32<skidd13>SmatZ, glx: Satisfied? ->
16:32<+glx>better yes :)
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16:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r11389 /trunk/ (5 files in 5 dirs): -Fix [FS#1386]: Replace calls to deprecated API with newer ones and handle broken iconv declaration in OSX 10.5.
16:35<SmatZ>skidd13: nice
16:36<SmatZ>skidd13: devs could do, but they don't like to do it themselves :)
16:37<@Bjarni>I could do a whole lot of stuff to the source (and I have plans for it) but I lack unlimited time :(
16:37<@Bjarni>would be nice to even get time for more than just eating, sleeping and uni stuff... just for a start
16:39<skidd13>Bjarni: As everyone in here ;) Our time is free time and allway limited
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16:39<skidd13>:%s /allway/allways/
16:39<SmatZ>yes, everyone has lack of time
16:40<SmatZ>so devs don't want to spend their time fixing others' patches, when the author can do that...
16:40<@Bjarni>I don't even have time to fix my own patches :(
16:40<Prof_Frink>skidd13: If you're going to cerrect it, correct it right
16:40<Prof_Frink>Yes, there's a typo in that.
16:42<skidd13>Prof_Frink: Where?
16:44<skidd13>Prof_Frink: Häää??? What error are you talking about?
16:45<Prof_Frink>in yours? allways->always
16:47<skidd13>Ahh. Damn. I wondered myself. Somehow it looked strange, but I wasn't able to find out what. ;) But thanks that you mentioned. It helps always to increase my knowledge of the english language.
16:48<@Belugas>time to go home :)
16:48<@Belugas>see youi maybe tonight
16:49<Prof_Frink>skidd13: That's rule #1273 of English: If it looks odd, it's spelled right.
16:54<fjb>Frensh is easier: If it sounds good, it is right. That helped me a lot at school. :-)
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16:57<+glx>Frensh ?
16:59<fjb>French. :-) Didn't I say it is easier than English?
16:59[~]SpComb confuses everybody by talking in Finnish
17:01<fjb>When the first nokia phones got to the marked outside Finnland, you could get the new owners mad when you changed the language to Finnish. :-)
17:03<Prof_Frink>fjb: If you're gonna do that, you change the language to aomething with non-latin characters
17:04<skidd13>The most manuals are multilangual. Compare the language stuff and you get normaly the equivalent. ;) There's no problem for me.
17:06<fjb>Finnish was bad enough on the first nokia phones. It is different enough to make people helpless.
17:07<fjb>skidd13: It's no problem today, that was years ago.
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17:18<Benito>Bjarni :D
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17:31<TrueBrain>skidd13: you were looking at the AB patch?
17:31<skidd13>TrueBrain: yup
17:34<TrueBrain>k :) You post what ever your findings are?
17:34<TrueBrain>btw, nice replies on the bridges :)
17:34<TrueBrain>ah, you posted it already ;)
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17:37<TrueBrain>bad mistake skidd13, bad bad bad :p :p :p :)
17:37<TrueBrain>Rafa? Rzepecki did find it pretty quick, not bad :)
17:39<skidd13>agreed :( Nobodys perfect.
17:39<skidd13>TrueBrain: How many people overlooked it too? :P
17:40<TrueBrain>skidd13: sssttt :p
17:40<TrueBrain>I was trying to hide that fact :)
17:40<skidd13>It's open source so no place to hide :D
17:41<TrueBrain>hehe :)
17:41<skidd13>even the bugs are licenced under GPL :D :D
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17:42<fjb>GPL is kind of a viral licence, that means, everybody who uses a piece of GPLed code must also use the bugs. :-)
17:43<TrueBrain>don't you just love it?
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17:52<skidd13>TrueBrain: What do you think about:
17:54<SmatZ>skidd13: does it also disable power plant's smoke movement?
17:54<SmatZ>from original TT grf
17:54<skidd13>SmatZ: I'm not sure.
17:55[~]skidd13 tests it
17:56<TrueBrain>night Wolf01
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17:56<TrueBrain>finally I am in time before he leaves ;)
17:59<skidd13>SmatZ: nope. So I've to add a check there too ;)
18:01<fjb>Ups, I can add tram tracks to somebody elses road bridge, but I'm not llowed to remove them.
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18:09<fjb>Now it's the highlight of an unused and insane long wood bridge that was build by the ai. Why do they buy the fastest busses but are still building wood bridges?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause3>because the AI is stupid
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18:17<fjb>That is no reason to be that stupid...
18:17<skidd13>SmatZ: Disabling the smoke looks buggy
18:18<Eddi|zuHause3>it should rather remove smoke alltogether, not just stop it from moving
18:18<Rubidium>skidd13: you know your 'real full animation disable'-patch is a desyncer?
18:19<skidd13>Rubidium: So disable it at the loop not at the initial loading?
18:20<Rubidium>that's the problem... the game state can be changed in the animation loops
18:20<Rubidium>and game state changes that are not done on every client == desync
18:20<skidd13>Uohh :( Not nice... Any idea for a solution?
18:21<+glx>don't disable them
18:21<Rubidium>there is no solution, except disabling it server side
18:21<Rubidium>but then you most likely break some NewGRFs
18:21<Rubidium>as they might use the animation state for the production callbacks and such
18:21<+glx>some industries uses animation to store some states
18:22<Rubidium>something I expect to happen in some of the ECS vectors
18:22<skidd13>Hmmpf... :(
18:25<skidd13>good night
18:25<TrueBrain>night skidd13
18:25<TrueBrain>nice day :)
18:25<Rubidium>the disable animation only disables sprite animations
18:25<Rubidium>i.e. magic colours
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18:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11391 /trunk/ (bin/data/dosdummy.grf src/gfxinit.cpp src/table/files.h): -Change: print all error messages related to missing/corrupted files in one message including the location where they can get said missing/corrupted files.
18:30<ln->Bjarni: how's the kangaroo?
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19:12[~]fjb hates his planes crashing.
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19:53[~]Eddi|zuHause3 has no planes
19:53[~]Prof_Frink constrains Eddi|zuHause3 to the x-y plane
19:54<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: Did all crash? :-)
19:54<Eddi|zuHause3>err... technically... that should be a correct expression ;)
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22:38<Ailure>that was easy
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22:57<Ailure>getting C++ to work perfectly with your favorite IDE is a wonderful feeling
22:57<Ailure>now I actually might mess with the openTTD source ;)
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23:17<Tefad>Ailure: what, vi and bash aren't a good enough IDE for you? ; )
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 08 00:00:23 2007