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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-10

---Logopened Sat Nov 10 00:00:16 2007
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01:28<Phazorx>":
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04:35<Wolf01>hello
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04:40[~]dihedral greets the lot
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04:53<dihedral>!seen soup
04:53<_42_>dihedral, I found 2 matches to your query: [1]Soup, Soup. [1]Soup (~Soup@66-230-114-105-dsl-rb1.nwc.acsalaska.net) was last seen being kicked from #openttd by TrueBrain ( Go kick) 11 hours 52 minutes ago (09.11. 22:01), after spending 16 seconds there.
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04:53<dihedral>:-)
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05:07<Wolf01>does the intro screen viewport scrolling (like locomotion or rollercoaster) interests somebody?
05:09<Gonozal_VIII>you could scroll around in an earlier version when you desynced from multiplayer while the right mouse button was pressed
05:10<Gonozal_VIII>not very interesting there
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05:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure he means automatically jumping between starting screen locations (useful with a starting screen that has multiple sceneries set up
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>)
05:14<Gonozal_VIII>well it doesn't
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05:15<Wolf01>i'm trying to add jumping locations with signs
05:16<Gonozal_VIII>the currently used map is not interesting outside the standard view, would have to use a different one
05:18<Wolf01>but you can always put your best game there
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05:25<Eddi|zuHause>Gonozal_VIII: you can replace the title screen with any savegame
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>just rename it to opntitle.dat
05:26<Gonozal_VIII>oh... i didn't know that
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>likewise, you can play the title screen by renaming it .sav
05:27<Gonozal_VIII>already at it
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06:29<Gonozal_VIII>i've changed my title screen a bit now, interconti airport instead of the normal one, helidepot instead of heliport, drive through bus/mail station and i also added a bridge over some diagonal rail tiles :-)
06:30<Gonozal_VIII>and some presignals...
06:33<LeviathNL>glx, nice work with the ind var 67 68 fix.
06:35<LeviathNL>Is it correct still more than 1 tourist centre of the same type is generated (is this because of bigger maps?)
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06:45<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/titlescreen.png
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06:55<mikl>Gonozal_VIII: hvad er det sjove ved det?
06:56<Gonozal_VIII>?
06:56<mikl>ah, sorry - wrong channel...
06:57<Gonozal_VIII>ok...
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07:49<csaba>hi
07:49<fjb>Moin
07:49<csaba>how can change the road direction?
07:50<csaba>when im building it
07:50<csaba>there are onliy two directions in the build road menu
07:50<csaba>only
07:50<Gonozal_VIII>there is no diagonal road
07:50<fjb>Roads can be build only in two directions.
07:51<csaba>ok
07:51<csaba>thanks
07:57<csaba>on more : can i rotate the live map?
07:57<csaba>how?
07:57<Gonozal_VIII>no
07:57<csaba>ok thanks
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07:58<Gonozal_VIII>but you can make the buildings/trees transparent to look behind them
07:59<csaba>cover up
07:59<csaba>how
08:00<Gonozal_VIII>hold the mouse button down on the third menubutton and select transparency options
08:01<csaba>ok ok
08:02<Greyscale>Rebooty
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08:04<fjb>Or just press x to toggle the transparency.
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08:04<csaba>x does not work 4 me
08:07<csaba>sorry i play with standard ttd because im practicing
08:07<Ammller>omg
08:08<Gonozal_VIII>practicing?
08:08<Ammller>:)
08:08<Ammller>csaba: really TTD or at least TTDPatch?
08:09<csaba>i dont know exactly but i had to apply something patch for xp
08:11<Ammller>csaba: there is also an official TTDPatch channel, #tyccon @ quakenet
08:11<csaba>and ?
08:12<Ammller>yeah, they can help you better with i.e. how to make something transparent
08:12<Ammller>or you switch to OTTD, should be easier
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08:13<csaba>because im a beginner i dont want to wander on the map without aim on the online wersion
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08:15<Gonozal_VIII>openttd is not only multiplayer, it can do anything that the original ttd could
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08:16<csaba>i did not know that
08:17<csaba>really great game
08:18<Gonozal_VIII>that's true :-)
08:18<csaba>that is all i know tell :)
08:18<csaba>can
08:20<csaba>there is 4 kind of bridge:)
08:20<csaba>there are
08:20<@TrueBrain>morning
08:20<fjb>Moin TrueBrain
08:20<Gonozal_VIII>hi
08:21<Gonozal_VIII>there are more than 4
08:21<csaba>i meant in ttd
08:21<csaba>i believe in you
08:22<Gonozal_VIII>oh no! the pressure! it's too much!
08:23<Gonozal_VIII>but i think there are also more then 4 bridges in ttd
08:24<csaba>caused by me, ok wont ask
08:24<csaba>i
08:25<fjb>Feel free to ask.
08:26<csaba>ok, i warned you :)
08:26<Gonozal_VIII>you can ask anything you want
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08:30<fjb>But don't expect an answer to every question. ;-)
08:30<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
08:31<csaba>great:)
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08:39<csaba>is there undo ?:)
08:39<Gonozal_VIII>no^^
08:40<Gonozal_VIII>you have to think ahead ;-)
08:40<csaba>the slopes the slopes
08:41<Gonozal_VIII>what about them?
08:41<fjb>You will learn how the slopes are working. Every beginner has some trouble with slopes.
08:42<csaba>ok ok
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08:47<csaba>thanks everything see you soon:)
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08:56<Ammller>[14:40] <csaba> the slopes the slopes <-- they are really hard in TTD
08:57<+glx>too late Ammller
08:57<Ammller>oh,:)
08:57<Ammller>but still true
08:57<Gonozal_VIII>can't remember if i had problems with them at first, that's so many years ago
08:58<Ammller>you had no foundations, if I remember right?
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09:45<|fjb|>!logs
09:45<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
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10:10<skidd13>Hi folks
10:10<Gonozal_VIII>hi
10:10<@TrueBrain>hi skidd13
10:12|-|eJoJ [~ejoj@ti211110a080-7900.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:12<skidd13>TrueBrain: I've been thinking over the code. There are functions missplaced in various files. And I come to the conclusion that file cleanup would be usefull. My thinking got into the direction to split the engine from the game (or at least to clarify the border a bit better)
10:13<@TrueBrain>skidd13: many tried, many failed :)
10:13<@TrueBrain>resolving the include mess for example
10:13<@TrueBrain>is always a good thing
10:13<@TrueBrain>but hard
10:13<skidd13>I knew. But I'm not many :D
10:13<@TrueBrain>true :)
10:13<fjb>Moin skidd13
10:13<skidd13>Moin
10:13<@TrueBrain>a while back we made a purposal for directory structure
10:13<@TrueBrain>which should help for things like that
10:14<@TrueBrain>but I guess it got lost...
10:14<skidd13>Do you have a backup?
10:14<@TrueBrain>(like newgrfs in newgrf/ )
10:14<@TrueBrain>if I remember correctly, Rubidium had that file on his http, but I am sure I am making things up
10:15<skidd13>Moving the random functions and the templates of macros.h should be collected in something like mat.h
10:15<skidd13>:%s /Moving//g
10:15<@TrueBrain>skidd13: wrote down a purposal, and I am sure someone will look into it :)
10:16<skidd13>Wiki, or FS?
10:16<Gonozal_VIII>hehe how long will you remember that "making things up" comment?
10:16<@TrueBrain>skidd13: wiki sounds nice
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10:16<skidd13>K
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11:04<skidd13>TrueBrain: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/New_directory_structure <- The first ideas wait for expansion, critisism ;)
11:05<@TrueBrain>skidd13: I miss newgrf :p
11:05<@TrueBrain>maybe 'command'? :)
11:06<skidd13>Add it where you thing it should be!
11:06<@TrueBrain>no time today :)
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11:22<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like yet another patchkilling feature ;)
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11:23<MaSch>Hi
11:23<MaSch>Is there a option to enable/disable Pre/Combo/Exit Signals?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
11:24<MaSch>because i cant find them O.o i know that some time ago i used them, but there are no such signals
11:24<fjb>Just right click on a signal.
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl+click on a signal with the signal tool
11:24<fjb>Ok ctrl-click, I was too fast.
11:25<MaSch>oh.. okay thanks
11:25<MaSch>but i remember a window to control these things
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>that existed but was never in trunk
11:26<MaSch>okay.. so its only in the nightly builds?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>no
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>the nightly builds are done directly from trunk
11:27<MaSch>okay.. but how i got this window ?? i only use nightly builds
11:27<MaSch>or stable ones
11:27<fjb>It's in ChrisIN.
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>my best guess, you used an "integrated nightly" once
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>which has not much to do with a regular nightly
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11:28<MaSch>okay.. whatever.. with ctrl + click it works, too ^^ thanks a lot
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>while we are at signals... what happened to tecky and his PBS attempt?
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11:33<fjb>Maybe he is burried under the signals. He was senn some months ago the last time.
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11:44<ln->is there a nice design pattern for adding new data members to a class without adding them to the class definition?
11:45<Gonozal_VIII>subclass :-)
11:46<ln->not really an option. :)
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think C++ allows to split the class definition into several parts
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>but what exactly are you trying to do?
11:50<ln->something like class A { Z z; }, but Z is something that requires too many headers included and isn't available for all platforms, so i wouldn't want the A header file to depend on it at all.
11:52<fjb>Hm, how about #ifdef ?
11:52<ln->omfg, an #ifdef inside a class definition is so ugly
11:53<ln->and doesn't remove the dependencies
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: like i said, i think you can have several "class A {}" definitions which then are merged
11:53<ln->Eddi|zuHause: interesting, i haven't been aware of that. gotta test.
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>so in the header file you put all public members, and in the .cpp file you put the private members and implementation details
11:55<ln->error: class A redefined
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12:10<fjb>How about letting A inherit from Z and provide an empty Z for some platforms?
12:12<ln->still the dependency problem
12:13<fjb>I don't know another way around the dependency beside #ifdef.
12:15<fjb>Ups, banks get placed far outside the towns with ECS.
12:15<ln->the header with A is included either directly or transitionally in a lot of places. making A include something extra makes everything #including A depend also on Z.
12:16<fjb>Then put the #ifdef into the header for A.
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>how about adding a portable (abstract) superclass to Z instead?
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12:17<ln->Eddi|zuHause: that's the least bad alternative so far.
12:18<ln->fjb: #ifdefs are not acceptable and do not solve dependency problems.
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12:20<ln->basically one could also have a table with pointers to A and pointers to Z in the .cpp, to connect instances of A with instances of Z, and so the header file of A wouldn't need to know anything about Z.
12:20|-|DaleStan_ changed nick to DaleStan
12:21<ln->but updating and accessing such a table would of course need thread synchronization which is unpleasant.
12:21<ln->(it would be static)
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>you could also have void pointers and then cast them to Z pointers everywhere...
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>urgh... that sounds even ugly to me :p
12:22<fjb>Sounds like many page faults...
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12:44<blathijs>nx
12:44<blathijs>woops
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13:44<csaba>hi
13:44<csaba>can somebody help me?
13:45<skidd13>what's the problem?
13:46<csaba>i can not travel grain or livestock between the farm and factory
13:46<csaba>i have depots next to them
13:46<ln->csaba: http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php/IRC#Don.27t_Ask_To_Ask
13:46<csaba>ln: answer me
13:46<csaba>dont command me
13:47<ln->csaba: shut the fuck up
13:47<ln->csaba: i have no obligation to answer you
13:47<csaba>ln if you cant help pls leave me alone
13:47<skidd13>@kick ln-
13:48<csaba>i have never said that fuck up
13:48|-|Gonozal_VIII [~Gonozal_V@N717P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:48<skidd13>csaba: depots? You need a station. a depot is only needed to handle trains
13:48<csaba>kick yourself out
13:50<csaba>where is the station icon ?
13:51<csaba>ok i will find out
13:51<csaba>great community
13:51<skidd13>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Construction
13:52<skidd13>You might try the newbee guide in the wiki.
13:52<ln->skidd13: why would you want to kick me, sir?
13:53<skidd13>ln-: rude behavior
13:53|-|Gonozal_VIII [~Gonozal_V@N853P009.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd
13:53<ln->skidd13: in response to stupid and rude behavior.
13:54<skidd13>You should be friendly. OpenTTD is such a peacefull game. So please calm down. Thanks
13:55<ln->skidd13: i started by giving friendly instructions on how to ask for help on irc.
13:55<csaba>i have found the lorry station
13:56<skidd13>ln-: Some people are not native english, so their questions might sound not nice... Keep that in mind ;)
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>!logs
13:56<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
13:56<csaba>sorry my bad english i mixed the meaning of lorry
13:57<csaba>thanks
13:57<skidd13>no problem
13:58<csaba>yes i mixed the meaning of ferry and lorry
13:58<csaba>many thanks again
13:59[~]Phazorx pings TrueBrain
13:59[~]TrueBrain replies
13:59<skidd13>ln-: And there is no need to insult someone
14:00<csaba>im back to the game
14:00<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i got some reading material for ya
14:00<Phazorx>dcc ?
14:00<@TrueBrain>cool :) Show me ;)
14:00<@TrueBrain>can't handle DCC
14:00<@TrueBrain>either http or mail
14:02<ln->skidd13: i was not insulting, i merely ordered him to shut his mouth after he ignored my help.
14:03<ln->skidd13: not significantly worse than "not funny! end of discussion."
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14:03<skidd13>It's OK ln-
14:03<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: tnx, reading..
14:04<Phazorx>sure :)
14:04<Phazorx>i hope it at least worthy of time spent
14:04<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: btw, I did some matrix compression today, I could reduce any 18 bits with 3 bits :p
14:04<csaba>fullload buttton has been activated:)
14:04<@TrueBrain>(and any 50 bits with 11 bits)
14:04<Phazorx>TrueBrain: any bits or some ?
14:04<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: any combination of bits
14:04<@TrueBrain>some cases it was better, but never worse
14:05<Phazorx>that's good
14:05<Phazorx>266^3 chunk would be nice tho
14:05<@TrueBrain>I did it by hand, the checking of the matrix, as I was too lazy to write an application for it :p
14:05<@TrueBrain>so ... 6x6 was biggest I tried, with each cell containing 2 bits
14:06<Phazorx>72 bits
14:06<Phazorx>one thing i can say for sure - checksum validation gains value with number of dimentions
14:06<@TrueBrain>yup
14:07<Phazorx>so each next dimention used probably reduces needed data exponentialy
14:07<@TrueBrain>in my method, not exponential
14:07<@TrueBrain>but still, I found it suprising that you can reduce any amount of bitstream with several bits (up to a given limit)
14:07<@TrueBrain>just it takes a bit of CPU time :)
14:08<Phazorx>well given that number of dimentions is much less than data row/column
14:08<Phazorx>yeah,i can foresee that being a storage method for future
14:08<Phazorx>where it is always a balance between time spend and final sized
14:08<Phazorx>rather thana fixed number
14:09<Phazorx>and i can assure you that it works better on noneuniform data, so you ebtter of compressing it with soemtihng very fast 1st
14:09<@TrueBrain>your document finally clears up a few things ;)
14:09<Phazorx>i hoped so
14:09<@TrueBrain>I didn't use XOR, as the results can be doubtful, but I used SUM
14:09<Phazorx>the idea is very close to encrypton and can be used to encrypt as wellas compress
14:10<Phazorx>TrueBrain: well sum with overflow?
14:10<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: no, that is why it isn't exponentional :)
14:10<Phazorx>ahh
14:10<Phazorx>well my aprach is mroe generic
14:11<Phazorx>but it could be any of known hash methods
14:11<Phazorx>doesnt matter that much
14:11<Phazorx>xor is just faster and has enough invariety to it to make it work
14:12<@TrueBrain>downside of XOR is that when you have something like: 10 ?? ?? => 00, the last two ?? are set, but the middle row can be either 10 or 01
14:12<@TrueBrain>(where => is the XOR of the first 3 pairs of 2 bits)
14:12<Phazorx>well that's why you have more than just one dimension
14:13<Phazorx>so a cross check would clear up soem things
14:13<@TrueBrain>but still doesn't make it unique
14:13<Phazorx>and 3rd dimetion will give you even more detail
14:13<@TrueBrain>or worse: the checksum isn't unique
14:13<Phazorx>as i mentined yesterday uniqueness isnt the goal
14:13<Phazorx>it still is a guess
14:14<@TrueBrain>for lossless compression, in the end it is :)
14:14<Phazorx>i beg to differ
14:14<@TrueBrain>euh, in the end you want to be able to decompress
14:14<Phazorx>if you can guess from first try of many guess and have enough guideance to have a 100% probability on 1st guess being correct
14:14<@TrueBrain>so, lossless defines that you need to get an unique solution ;)
14:15<Phazorx>it doesnt matter tha there can be 1000000 more incorrect guesses as long as they are not 1st one
14:15<@TrueBrain>oh, k, you mean it like that ;)
14:15<@TrueBrain>in my book, it means you did define enough uniqueness :)
14:15<@TrueBrain>(filling in spots in the matrix, does define uniqueness :))
14:15<Phazorx>you can read it like that
14:15<Phazorx>but a meant from math side of things
14:15<Phazorx>it is not a unique solution
14:15<Phazorx>it is a subset
14:15<@TrueBrain>anyway, what I ment with the XOR problem, is that you have to give the middle row on every entry. It can not be calculated in any way
14:16<@TrueBrain>your method kind of avoids that btw
14:16<@TrueBrain>(by pre-defining what it should be, and giving addition information if it is not ;))
14:16<Phazorx>yeah i guess, and i like xor because evey bit is meangfull in every step
14:16<Phazorx>but 2 dimentions is the least to make it mena enoughj
14:16<@TrueBrain>I agree :)
14:16<Phazorx>and more dimentions - more meaning it has
14:17<@TrueBrain>btw, the word 'guessing' gets a whole other meaning ;)
14:18<@TrueBrain>funny enough, what I wrote today isn't far off from what you wrote down :) Just you present a very clever way to produce enough results to create the matrix
14:18<Phazorx>i think it is a worth idea
14:18<Phazorx>just the math part is lacking
14:21<Phazorx>i'm not sure if you are familiar with simple block variation ciphers but they sort of do same thing but in reverse, where key bits are used to encrypt in same fashion as i position this idea to "guess" the original data
14:22<Phazorx>you can write an app to brute force it tho
14:22<Phazorx>on some smaller chunks like 16x16x16 bytes
14:22<Phazorx>much less yield tho
14:23<@TrueBrain>as a proof-of-concept doesn't care about how much CPU it uses, you can create it without the math
14:23<@TrueBrain>by just brute forcing it
14:24<Phazorx>im pretty sure since the concept is trivial someone would already have doe it
14:24<Phazorx>and smatr math part is the key
14:24<Phazorx>to make it somewhat usable
14:24<@TrueBrain>the invention of the wheel, don't you think someone was thinking too, someone else would have thought it up?
14:24<Phazorx>could be fun to get some cray time and encoe like a gig into few megabytes :)
14:25<@TrueBrain>this Soup guy is funny.. it is joining all channels I am on and starts annoying :p
14:25<Phazorx>you know that i banned all ISPs in his town in #openttdcoop ?
14:25<@TrueBrain>Phazorx: I can get CPU time, and a lot
14:26<Phazorx>TrueBrain: when more power to you, i still would like more proper math appraoch than brute force
14:26<Phazorx>as it is now it is possible to be done but not feasible to be used
14:26<@TrueBrain>I Agree :)
14:26<@TrueBrain>have you tried it? :p
14:26<Phazorx>nope
14:27<Phazorx>been a while since i actualy done a C app from scratch
14:27<Phazorx>like 10 years at least :)
14:27<@TrueBrain>lol :)
14:27<@TrueBrain>if you don't mind, I will give it a spin?
14:27<Phazorx>you definately should
14:27<Phazorx>but i;d like to spin it too if you publish the code :)
14:27<Phazorx>and most definately enhance the guesing part
14:28<@TrueBrain>just minor things that don't make sense... 71 XORed is 81?
14:28<Phazorx>71 xored to what ?
14:28<Phazorx>you mean when cheating was done?
14:28<@TrueBrain>let's get an other channel for this ;)
14:29<@TrueBrain>#openttd.compress
14:29<@TrueBrain>anyone who cares, can join too :p
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15:08<Brianetta>It's a shame only 255 UK servicemen were lost in the Falklands War. One more and it would have wrapped to zero, what with it being 1982 and all.
15:08<hylje>i *so* saw a bitness joke coming
15:10<Brianetta>Th\at's why I had to get the whole thing out in one line
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15:16<fjbAWAY>:-)
15:16|-|fjbAWAY changed nick to fjb
15:16<fjb>back
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15:50<Rubidium>TrueBrain: you mean the thing like http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/guideline.txt ?
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16:47<fjb>Belugas?
16:50<fjb>!seen belugas
16:50<_42_>fjb, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
16:50<fjb>:-)
16:51<Rubidium>he's usually not online in the weekends
16:52<Rubidium>and if he's online, it's when it is 'late' for him, i.e. in about 4 to 6 hours
16:53<fjb>Ok, thank you. I think I found a bug in newindustries.
16:54<Rubidium>it's just an undocumented OTTD specific feature ;)
16:55<fjb>But my citicens complain, there is no bank in their town...
16:55<Rubidium>poor them ;)
16:57<fjb>And the banka are complaining, they have no customers.
16:58<Rubidium>fjb: FS#1382?
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17:01<fjb>Yes, looks like others have the same problem.
17:23<SmatZ>wow, rbijker.net, Rubidium's own website ;-)
17:23<Rubidium>boring, ain't it?
17:23<SmatZ>not at all
17:23<SmatZ>I didn't know about it
17:24<Rubidium>poor soul ;)
17:24<SmatZ>Nothing yet
17:24<SmatZ>hmm yes, a bit boring :-D
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17:25<Rubidium>it "just" contains loads of crappy patches
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17:29<fjb>Oh, strato...
17:31<Rubidium>thus?
17:36<fjb>One of the biggest providers around here, nothing more.
17:38<Rubidium>for good reasons ;)
17:38<Rubidium>I haven't found a compelling reason to go somewhere else
17:42<fjb>I was just curious. :-)
17:55|-|lolman changed nick to John
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17:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11400 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1409]: assign orders during cloning after refitting as it needs the cargo types to be the same.
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18:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11401 /trunk/src/macros.h: -Fix [FS#1391]: make all min functions do exactly the same instead of branching on either < or <=.
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19:01<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: is FS#1315 fixed?
19:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11402 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp table/build_industry.h): -Fix [FS#1382]: incorrect handling of industry behaviour 'must be in town with population large than 1200'
19:14<ln->if i have f(const A&), is it true that i cannot pass an instance of B to f(), even if B is derived from A?
19:15<ln->like i of course could with pointers.
19:15<Rubidium>IMO it should be possible to pass B, but that doesn't warrant it working in C++
19:16<ln->hmm, or did i simply make a stupid error with using and not using const..
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19:20<ln->that seems quite probable
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19:29<Lord>hello everyone, is there any AI specialist around?
19:30<Rubidium>depends on which part of what AI
19:30<Lord>I'm looking for the meaning of the ai member variable 'route_type_mask'
19:31<Lord>for a little project i'm doing
19:32<Rubidium>then I fear there's nobody who is specialist in that AI
19:32<Lord>it's kind of used in the AiCheckIfRouteIsGood routine but I just can't figure out what it does
19:32<Lord>oh too bad
19:34<Rubidium>neither can I
19:34<Lord>damn this whole bitmasking is just too nasty
19:35<Rubidium>there's your reason the 'default' AI isn't maintained
19:35<Lord>yeah, heh
19:36<Rubidium>if you want to change/make an AI you better look at the NoAI branch
19:37<Lord>nah, I need to understand the old, original AI. It's for the SVXConverter, you know...
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19:38<Lord>so I'm actually digging into the OpenTTD code to get to understand what original TTD does
19:39<Rubidium>you'd better get the oldest version of OTTD you can find
19:39<Lord>i did, it's 0.1.4
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19:40<Lord>that's the oldest source code available on sourceforge
19:41<Rubidium>anyway, it give me the feeling it's 'forcing' that it builds only one 'route' for each transportation type at a time
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19:43<Lord>yeah it has to do with transportation types (bitmask = 1: rail, 2: road, 4: aircraft), but don't ai players only build one transortation route at a time anyway?
19:44<Rubidium>I've got absolutely no idea
19:44<Lord>:-D
19:45<Lord>alright then, thanks, have a nice WE
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19:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11403 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: NewIndustries GRF assume that tiles are already animated during construction.
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19:55<Tom>so i got a question
19:55<Tom>how do you know what newgrfs work with 0.5.3?
19:56<Tom>i host a pretty popular US-based server and newgrf hell is making me want to jump off a bridge
19:56<Rubidium>there isn't a simple way to know whether they work, however... on the wiki is a list with GRFs that are known to work
19:56|-|Tom changed nick to tomthebomb
19:56<tomthebomb>i checked that
19:56<tomthebomb>however, i think it's outdated
19:56<Rubidium>why?
19:56<tomthebomb>for instance, i tried loading the TTRS3 newgrf
19:56<tomthebomb>in 0.5.3
19:56<tomthebomb>and i made a game
19:57<tomthebomb>and everything displayed perfectly fine
19:57<tomthebomb>whereas in the wiki it says it requires nightlies
19:57<tomthebomb>yet i'm unsure why
19:57<Rubidium>well... TTRS 3 does not work properly in 0.5.3, that's something I'm 100% sure of
19:57<Rubidium>or rather, it doesn't work at all
19:58<tomthebomb>how though
19:58<tomthebomb>or rather; what is broken about it?
19:58<+glx>you get only road and depot/station replacement
19:58<+glx>and miss all buildings
19:58<tomthebomb>certainly not...
19:58<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/newgrf.htm <-- that are the grfs i use but in the nightlies, not in 0.5.3... but i think most of them should work
19:59<Rubidium>the NewGRF TTRS uses to "replaces" the houses is not implemented in 0.5.3
19:59<tomthebomb>I'm really confused then
19:59<tomthebomb>because I do get new buildings and stuff
19:59<tomthebomb>and I'm not counting depots/stations
19:59<tomthebomb>i'm counting city buildings
19:59<@Belugas>i bet you are using the new town replacemnt one...
19:59<tomthebomb>nope
19:59<Rubidium>then you are not using TTRS3 *or* you are not using 0.5.3
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19:59<tomthebomb>i am using TTR3s
19:59<@Belugas>that is not ttrs
19:59<tomthebomb>and i am using 0.5.3
19:59<tomthebomb>i will take a screenshot for you
20:00<@Belugas>tomthebomb, it's IMPOSSIBLE
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20:00<tomthebomb>then i guess i did the impossible?
20:00<tomthebomb>hell if i know, i'm really just trying to figure out what works and what does not
20:00<+glx>well show us how it look
20:00<tomthebomb>more than happy to
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20:05<tomthebomb>maybe i am stupid
20:05<tomthebomb>but this looks like the buildings are replaced
20:05<tomthebomb>http://netriver.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/8a/8a3127411885cc0501b693e31cc159099b0dc8c6.png
20:05<Rubidium>and the newgrf list?
20:07<tomthebomb>http://netriver.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/7d/7de60d26696f8d2002e79e5ab13bf042666f41fd.png
20:07<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know those tall buildings but rest seems to be standard
20:07<tomthebomb>none of those are standard
20:07<tomthebomb>well
20:07<tomthebomb>except for the stadium i think maybe
20:07<Phazorx>glx silly mingw/msys question
20:07<Phazorx>how do i append soemtihng to path
20:08<Phazorx>somehoe it did not inherit current path from win env, but i dotn feel like rebooting
20:09<+glx>set path=bla;%path% in cmd
20:09<Phazorx>well in cmd it show correct path
20:09<Phazorx>in export | grep path in msys
20:09<Phazorx>it does not
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/titlescreen.png <-- titlescreen without grfs loaded
20:09<+glx>should be something similar in msys but with $path
20:09<Phazorx>i tried set ${PATH}=$PATH.';C:\Mercurial'
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>most of your buildings are there
20:09<Phazorx>no effect
20:10<tomthebomb>most, but not all
20:10<+glx>export PATH=$PATH:/c/Mercurial
20:10<tomthebomb>where did those others come from?
20:11<Phazorx>thank you
20:11<Phazorx>should ahve done it "normal way"
20:11<+glx>msys uses linux way ;)
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>i think i have never seen the tall buildings there even with ttrs
20:12<tomthebomb>i do not recognize those tall buildings
20:12<Rubidium>well... TTRS3 has some effect on 0.5.3, but not the effect that it should have
20:13<fjb>tomthebomb: That buildings are not from TTRS, looks like the are ordinary buildings from trocpic climate.
20:13<+glx>all simple replacement (action A) work
20:13<+glx>but that's all
20:13<tomthebomb>so it partially works
20:13<tomthebomb>but just barely
20:13<tomthebomb>it does replace some graphics
20:14<Rubidium>yes, but does that mean it works correctly?
20:14|-|Addi [~ttdx@cable-dynamic-87-245-83-24.shinternet.ch] has quit []
20:14<Rubidium>it's rather that OTTD behaves incorrectly by even trying to load TTRS
20:15<tomthebomb>fair enough
20:15<+glx>hey we could disable grf trying to use unsupported features ;)
20:15<@Belugas>tomthebomb, this is what arctic looks like with ttrs: http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/arctic-ttrs.png
20:16<+glx>road style is date dependant
20:16<tomthebomb>so what i ended up with
20:16<tomthebomb>was something that was kinda bugged out
20:16<Rubidium>glx: that's already done by action B
20:17<@Belugas>not really, it was simple graphics replacment
20:17<+glx>Rubidium: I meant unsupported action 0 features for example
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20:18<@Belugas>tomthebomb: look here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20781
20:18<@Belugas>yu'll have more of the same medecine,
20:18<Rubidium>glx: all GRFs check for those 'flags' newrvs etc
20:18<@Belugas>just graphics replacement, nothing more
20:19<tomthebomb>okay, now my next question is
20:19<tomthebomb>is there a solid way to know what newgrfs work with what nightlies?
20:19<Rubidium>no
20:19<Ammller>[02:15] <glx> hey we could disable grf trying to use unsupported features <-- I hope not :)
20:20<Rubidium>though currently a lot more NewGRFs are supported by the nightlies than 0.5.3
20:20<+glx>Ammller: but would be funny to disable grf trying to replace original strings
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20:20<+glx>as we don't support it
20:20<tomthebomb>are there any kind of milestones that are guaranteed usable nightlies
20:20<tomthebomb>or are there just nightlies
20:21<Ammller>tomthebomb: nightlies are nice
20:21<Rubidium>'guaranteed' usable nightlies are called stables
20:21<tomthebomb>and 0.5.3 is the latest stable
20:21<Ammller>we play with nightlies all the time
20:21<Sacro>most nightlys are stable
20:21<@Belugas>the latest, the better grf support it has, generally
20:22[~]Sacro snags openttd-svn from AUR
20:22<tomthebomb>im a little wary of running a stable
20:22<Ammller>you don't need luck to have a stable nightly, you need "bad luck" to have a unstable
20:23<tomthebomb>on a production server
20:23<tomthebomb>er, a nightly
20:23<tomthebomb>rather
20:24<@Belugas>how many servers do you run?
20:25<tomthebomb>i run just one openttd server
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20:25<tomthebomb>its pretty popular though
20:25<@Belugas>ask if they are willing to try a nightly game once in a while
20:26<Sacro>trade stability for new features
20:26<@Belugas>you'll see how stable it will really be
20:26<Sacro>to be honest
20:26<tomthebomb>i dont think id like making them update every day though
20:26<tomthebomb>or even every week
20:26<Sacro>when we played on Brianetta's Nightly, very few nights where there any serious bugs
20:26<Ammller>same at #openttdcoop
20:27<Gonozal_VIII>updating is done in less than a minute
20:27<Ammller>and you don't have to do it nightly, you can do it if you like a new feature...
20:27<Sacro>rm *.pkg.tar.gz && versionpkg && pacman -U *.pkg.tar.gz
20:28<Sacro>or once a week
20:28<tomthebomb>heh
20:28<tomthebomb>they run windows
20:28<tomthebomb>im the only one running anything Linux related
20:28<tomthebomb>and its because my server's running Debian
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20:29<Ammller>A compile furm does support you with winbins
20:29[~]Sacro huggles his ArchLinux machines
20:29<tomthebomb>thats true
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20:33<tomthebomb>does anyone have an example pack of newgrfs that will work with the latest nightly?
20:33<Gonozal_VIII>[01:58:48] Gonozal_VIII: http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/newgrf.htm <-- that are the grfs i use but in the nightlies, not in 0.5.3... but i think most of them should work
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>not a pack... but links
20:34<Sacro>tomthebomb: www.ppcis.org/standard
20:34<Sacro>that has a nice grf pack
20:34<Sacro>though actually, it isn't nightly
20:34<Sacro>openttdcoop has anice set
20:35<tomthebomb>i just really hate getting stuck in grf hell
20:35<tomthebomb>apt-get newgrfs please
20:35<tomthebomb>just kidding :v
20:35<Sacro>haha
20:35<Sacro>brb
20:35<Ammller>tomthebomb: hmm, you can use our grfpack, if you like
20:36<Sacro>holy...
20:36<Sacro>these fonts are ftw
20:37<Gonozal_VIII>fonts?
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20:37<tomthebomb>Ammller- which?
20:38<Ammller>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
20:38<Sacro>just installed cairo-lcd
20:38<Sacro>and freetype-lcd
20:39<Ammller>but please link only to this page, don't distribute it self and don't link to achive files directly
20:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11404 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp news_gui.cpp): -Codechange: remove 2 magical numbers
20:40<tomthebomb>Ammller: what revision do you use?
20:41<tomthebomb>for openttd
20:41<Ammller>nightly
20:41<Ammller>:)
20:41<tomthebomb>which nightly?
20:41<tomthebomb>the most recent?
20:41[~]Sacro prods Ammller "nightly" is not a version
20:41<Ammller>or sometimes also patched versions
20:41<Sacro>nor is "latest"
20:42<Ammller>Sacro: and what should I say :)
20:43<Ammller>currently we use r11394 with shared and offshore patch
20:43<Ammller>nice newwater
20:43<tomthebomb>thank you
20:43<tomthebomb>this will help me a lot
20:44<Ammller>hmm, and see at bottom, we list all servers, which uses the pack
20:46[~]fjb is using r11399.
20:47<Ammller>and tomthebomb: and we also update the pack almost monthly
20:50<Sacro>gah
20:50[~]Sacro appears to be grabbing the whole of mono svn
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21:30<Ammller>good night all
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22:04<fjb>Good night
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 11 00:00:48 2007