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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-12

---Logopened Mon Nov 12 00:00:25 2007
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04:13<dihedral>hello :-)
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04:46<divo>Is it possible to configure openttd to work through a proxy server? I'm trying to play an internet game but I can't even get the server list.
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04:47<divo>I've configured a proxy tunnel and it works with other games like Warcraft 3 but not with openttd
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04:50<Rubidium>the serverlisting can't be done via a proxy, but you can view servers at and connect directly using their IP/port
04:52<divo>I will try that out, thanks
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04:55<divo>That worked beautifully, now I can play oTTD in class :)
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05:15<dihedral>that was a short visit
05:15<titus>serverlisting is udp?
05:15<titus>wth, it doesn't even need any silent-death shit which creates the need of using udP :/
05:16<Rubidium>it's needed due to the fact that you cannot open more than 500 connections on 'plain' Windowses
05:16<titus>windows doesn't know about setrlimit?
05:16<titus>how about primary tcp and then fallback to udp if errno for that crap is detected?
05:17<titus>tho most NAT's are able to map UDP traffic too nowadays
05:17<dihedral>whats wrong with the way it is?
05:17<titus>firewalls :)
05:17<Rubidium>titus: it's not simultanious connections, it's network handles that can be opened in total by a Windows application
05:18<titus>god bless I don't program windows servers
05:19<titus>disabling RAW sockets cause the hacking done with RAW sockets... give me a break :/
05:20<titus>but disabling functionalty due some windows stupidity is just plain ignorance :)
05:22<titus>unless you're javaprogrammer and your library (what you don't know what its doing) does that for you :)
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05:23<Rubidium>so, I hope you now understand why we use UDP for that, and it's rather the reason why we use UDP that is 'wth' than actually using it
05:23<dihedral>titus, ignoring a very wide spread OS is ignorance
05:24<titus>I still don't understand why udp
05:24<dihedral>Rubidium just explained it to you
05:24<titus>which windows has that 500 limit?
05:24<titus>which cannot be modified with setrlimit() kinda basis
05:25<dihedral>go write a patch...
05:25<dihedral>if you have success, post it in
05:26<titus>well first I would need to know which windows has the 500 limit which "can't be modified" with any kind of syscall on hard/soft-level
05:26<dihedral>you have all you need for a good query
05:26<dihedral>oh - hint:
05:27<dihedral>or have a look at
05:28<titus>"windows 500 filehandles limit" I get only about the 1024 / C10K limits.. 500 is something unheard of to me during my career of 10years of programming various servers :)
05:31<dihedral>titus... rething your search
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05:32<titus>dihedral: unix term...
05:32<titus>inbound connections....
05:33<titus>why in earth do you need inbound connections when you can receive just tcp established packets or is this again some witty microsoft term
05:33<titus>oh you want to run master on windows
05:33<dihedral>that was just a 'hint' that there are some odd limits
05:34<dihedral>to encourage you to search a little more
05:34<titus>I haven't seen a limit which limits to 500 outgoing connections :)
05:34<dihedral>and... why on earth are you complaining about it?
05:34<Rubidium>titus: 500 is approximate -> 512. Furthermore it seems to 'use' two handles for each opened network connection
05:34<dihedral>is it in anyway limiting you?
05:34<titus>512 sounds better
05:35<titus>I just get mad when some network programming is done awful :)
05:35<dihedral>then go write a patch
05:35<Rubidium>complain at the friends of Microsoft
05:35<dihedral>'friends' ?
05:36<Rubidium>I've personally had this issue too when I tried to implement some cross-platform network socket library long ago
05:36<Rubidium>so it could be a 9x-only issue
05:37<Rubidium>but then again, we still support 9x, so you still can't use TCP
05:37<dihedral>i thought 9x was no longer supported
05:37<titus>page says it doesn't even support windows 2000 :P
05:37<Rubidium>titus: what page?
05:38<titus>or I have a brainfart
05:38<dihedral>Windows Zip File (Windows 2000/XP/Vista ONLY)
05:38<Rubidium>recent enough win9x binary to say we still support it?
05:38<Rubidium>dihedral: and on the downloads page:
05:38<Rubidium>In addition, binaries for different Linux distributions, MorphOS, Windows 95, 98 and ME, Windows64, etc. are available here. Or you can download the files via BitTorrent. For a list of torrents, see here.
05:39<dihedral>Rubidium: just found it :-P
05:39<dihedral>my bad
05:39<titus>ok you could support DOS too and then rip all the network functionality because one of the platforms don't support it :-)
05:40<titus>(did somebody write a decent stack to dos btw :> )
05:40<titus>(^ joke)
05:41<Rubidium>DOS doesn't need any real changes -> ./configure --disable-networking (or something like that)
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05:49<Rubidium>hg st
05:50<Rubidium>hmm, wrong focuses suck!
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05:52<titus>get focus follows mouse :P
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05:53<Rubidium>nah; wouldn't have solved the issue
05:54<Rubidium>lag on the line meant that my server was in another window than my client showed
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06:01<dihedral>Rubidium: what do you think of FS1363
06:02<dihedral>unfort i specified a wrong 'reported version' number :-S
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06:26<Rubidium>dihedral: why is it hardcoded in one place and not hardcoded in another? Even... why does it use hardcoded numbers at all.
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07:05<dihedral>Rubidium: do you mean the if (client_index == 0)?
07:06<Rubidium>no, the 8 companies
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07:09<dihedral>Rubidium: the only place i see an '8' is in a console output (which is not very nice, i agree - i'll fix that)
07:10<dihedral>are you looking at v5 of that patch?
07:12<dihedral>and i need to replace ActivePlayerCount()... that aint good there...
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07:42<dihedral>Rubidium: what do you think of the general idea?
07:42<dihedral>hello fjb
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07:42<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
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07:47<fjb>The nfo interpreter is a really strange kind of virtual machine.
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09:20<dihedral>@seen Bjarni
09:20<@DorpsGek>dihedral: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 27 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the reply to you just got queued
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09:39<ln->finnair charges the violent passenger 250 euros per minutes late.
09:40<ln->and the plane was 160 minutes late
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09:42<mikl>|fjb|: That gives me bad associations to Ruby...
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09:50<fjb>mikl: Better?
09:51<mikl>fjb: a lot ;)
09:54<fjb>What's so unpleasant with Ruby?
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10:26<dihedral>when the server checks that clients are in sync, there is a check on a 'random' value, correct?
10:26<dihedral>i assume this calculation is based on the map the client is using?
10:27<dihedral>or could it be possible to return the correct value, without handling map and doCommands?
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10:33<+glx>dihedral: the 'random' seed value depends on how many times Random() has been called
10:35<dihedral>so i actually could wriet a client, that stays connected in the game all the time (i.e. does not desync) but does not have to process all pathfinding and industry de/increases etc?
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10:35<+glx>all these things use Random()
10:36<dihedral>well... i would have to write something that emulates the amout Random() is called... no?
10:36<+glx>and you can't know in advance how many times Random() needs to be call
10:36<dihedral>well - having all pathfinding functions and so on cut down to calling random?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>wääh... my DVD drive is broken...
10:37[~]dihedral feels sorry for Eddi|zuHause
10:38<dihedral>glx: if all methods that use Random() are cut down to do nothing else, but call Random()
10:38<dihedral>would that be a start?
10:38<dihedral>my thought is going towards an rcon interface :-P
10:38<+glx>but as I said you can't know how much call to Random() are needed
10:38<dihedral>that's a real shame
10:38<+glx>a path can need 1 Random(), but another 1 can need 2 or more
10:39<dihedral>so i would need another tcp port :-P
10:39<dihedral>and run everything via that
10:40<blathijs>dihedral: What are you trying to achieve?
10:40<dihedral>16:38 < dihedral> my thought is going towards an rcon interface :-P
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10:40<dihedral>a graphical admin interface that has a client and company list
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10:42<blathijs>It would be a lot more correct to modify the protocol (perhaps add a new type of client or something) than to pretend to be a normal client and fake random values
10:42<dihedral>yes, that's true blathijs
10:43<dihedral>didn't think of it that way :-P
10:43<dihedral>well - then the way would be another tcp port dedicated to rcon
10:44<blathijs>dihedral: Perhaps, but you might be able to fit into the existing protocol
10:44<blathijs>Which would not require a new port (might make the protocol a bit more complicated for your remote console, though)
10:50<dihedral>yeah - make a PLAYER_RCON = 200 :-P
10:50<Unknown_Entity>can anyone help me with a problem which i'm having with my ds port? i'm still getting wrong SpriteIDs.
10:51<Unknown_Entity>the offending line is still viewport.cpp:705: *vd->parent_list++ = ps;
10:52<Unknown_Entity>i've split that line into *vd->parent_list = ps; vd->parent_list++; for debug purposes and this is the debug output i get after the first part is executed:
10:52<Unknown_Entity>as you can see the value of _cur_vd->first_tile->image is being changed without intention
10:53<Unknown_Entity>(btw this is compiled with -o0)
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11:07<Unknown_Entity>no ideas? :(
11:11<dihedral>hello skidd13
11:11<skidd13>Hi dihedral
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11:31<hylje> Q train!
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11:37<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
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12:39<fjb>Hello Wolf01
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12:43<fjb>Is an empty action 0 allowed?
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12:48<@Belugas>helo Wolf01
12:48<Wolf01>hi Belugas
12:48<@Belugas>and Ho My God! :
12:49<LeviathNL>you can't attach more than 1 file on flyspray?
12:50<Wolf01>you shouldn't show me that kind of images... now i'll take another night to search my tongue
12:50<fjb>Belugas: I have seen it about an hour ago. Zimmlock is a great artist. But is there a limit for the number of sprites in the game?
12:50<LeviathNL>oh wait a select more files button :P
12:51<fjb>LeviathNL: Attaching more than one file didn't work for me.
12:51<@Belugas>fjb, i'm sure there is a limit, i just dont know precisely the nmber. quite high, in fact...
12:51<LeviathNL>Fjb, no problems here
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12:52<fjb>Belugas: You seam to know much about nfo. I'm just a beginner and so I'm looking into other people GRFs to learn. Now I have found something I don't understand:
12:52<fjb> "Michael Blunck" 00
12:52<fjb> 3 * 7 00 02 01 01 00 08 FF
12:52<fjb> 4 * 4 01 00 01 04
12:52<fjb> 5 * 1 00
12:52<fjb> 6 /home/frank/TTD/grf/newships/newshipsw.pcx 114 8 01 1 52 -14 -7
12:52<fjb> 7 * 1 00
12:52<fjb> 8 * 1 00
12:53<fjb>LeviathNL: Maybe that is browser dependent.
12:53<+glx>maybe decoding failed
12:54<fjb>What are that empty action 0? Or is that a bug in grfcodec?
12:54<LeviathNL>you mean part of sprite 1 & 2 are missing?
12:54<@Belugas>or undocumented feature ^_^
12:54<fjb>LeviathNL: No, that was a cut and paste error, sorry.
12:55<@Belugas>but it looks like broken
12:55[~]Belugas checks
12:55<fjb>I mean spricte 5, 7 and 8.
12:55<LeviathNL>does grfcodec make absolute paths?
12:55<+glx>looks weird with grf2html
12:56<fjb>That is from Michaels newships, but you guessed that, I think.
12:56<+glx>Action1: Sprite #5 must be a RealSprite
12:56<+glx>Action1: Sprite #7 must be a RealSprite
12:56<+glx>Action1: Sprite #8 must be a RealSprite
12:56<fjb>The newships behave a bit starnge sometimes, so I wanted to look into it. And to learn.
12:56<+glx>with grf2html
12:57<fjb>Hm then there is really an error in that grf?
12:57<fjb>I couldn't get grf2html to work with wine.
12:58<Ammler>hmm, it looks also that way by me...
12:58<fjb>I don't want to make a bug report, else the new DBSet will take even longer to be released...
13:00<Ammler>nforenum don't output errors about it
13:00<LeviathNL>what strange behavior did you see?
13:01<fjb>LeviathNL: Container ships disappear about 2030 (don't know the exact date). I don't think that is intended.
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13:02<LeviathNL>Sprite 6 is only a thin line with some collours :s
13:02<fjb>And I would like to teach the newships about some ECS goods.
13:03<@Belugas>confirmed, pseudo sprite 5,7,8 are just one 00 each
13:03<Ammler>fjb: I would ask MB, I am pretty sure he will answer very fast
13:04<@Belugas>i wonder if they are not ovrwritten at some point
13:05<Ammler>you guys have the grf from MBs page?
13:05<LeviathNL>sprite 4 action 1 is feature trains :s
13:05<+glx>looks like a misinterpreted action 0
13:06<LeviathNL>Mine is from coop pack. Same behavior
13:06<fjb>nfo is ugly as hell. :-)
13:08<Rubidium>maybe it's ugly but it gets the job done very efficiently
13:09<fjb>Hi dihedral
13:10<fjb>Rubidium: It has very strange opcodes, looks more like a hack than like a virtual machine.
13:10<Rubidium>it for sure it complex
13:10<Rubidium>but it is also *very* powerfull
13:10<fjb>Self modifying code is not the best solution. :-)
13:11<fjb>It sure is powerfull, but it is really difficuld to create something like an assembler for it.
13:11<Rubidium>most of it isn't self modifying, only one action is
13:11<@Belugas>well... that's the solution that has been brought, and so far no other viable solution has been proposed
13:12<fjb>One self modifying opcode is bad enough...
13:16<fjb>Hm, Michael doesn't have contact information at his home page. There is an "Impressum", but it lacks the important things. :-)
13:17<Rubidium>look at his profile at
13:19<slafs_>Are there any known bugs about network desync? I can't find any on and my game keeps crashing :)
13:19<Rubidium>crashing != desync
13:19<slafs_>server does not crash
13:19<slafs_>but all clients disconnect
13:20<+glx>connection lost or sync error?
13:20<slafs_>sync error
13:20<slafs_>dbg: [net] 'Slafs' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
13:20<slafs_>*** Slafs has left the game (desync error)
13:20<Rubidium>create a savegame that can be loaded in a server which then desyncs clients within a few seconds of joining
13:21<Rubidium>otherwise there is no way to debug it
13:21<slafs_>It only happens when I give orders to a particular train
13:21<fjb>Rubidium: I'm writing him a message at the german forum.
13:22<slafs_>... and only if that train is using a particular engine
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13:24<fifafrazer>Yo! Why is there no forest in the subarctic environment?
13:25<Rubidium>because forest only exist above the snowlevel and you have virtually no flat snowy surfaces?
13:26<fifafrazer>oh.. I've set the snow level pretty high, and set the terrain to flat ;)
13:27<fjb>Why do most people play at a flat terrain?
13:27<Rubidium>'cause that's 'easy'
13:28<fjb>Isn't the game easy enough?
13:28<fjb>Where is the fun then?
13:29<Rubidium>the debug build is even easier
13:29<LeviathNL>I only dislike all the small lakes when it is set to rough or higher and water on low
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11419 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1388]: articulated vehicle breaking up when making a 90 degree turn immediately after a 180 degree turn.
13:29<+glx><Rubidium> the debug build is even easier <-- yeah alt-0 is nice
13:29<fjb>Oh, a tram fix. :-)
13:30<Rubidium>alt-0 isn't nice
13:30<fjb>I get rich in the first years without sheeting or easy settings...
13:30<+glx>oups it's alt-1
13:30<Rubidium>tram fix? where?
13:30<fjb>Rubidium: Road vehicles not breaking up anymore. Should look much better.
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13:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11420 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1006]: industry closure news not properly shown when the news item pops up after the industry has been removed from the map.
13:33<fjb>Apropos small lakes... management failure:
13:36<fifafrazer>fjb, I'm totally new to the game, so for figuring out how signals work and so on, I thought it would be easier to experiment on a flat terrain :)
13:37<LeviathNL>fjb, :)
13:39<fjb>It was the first time that I got a casino resort when the world was created. And then the management has choosen the stupid point on the map. :-)
13:57<fjb>Hm, I can build canals even if no ships are in the game yet. Is that a bug?
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13:58|-|[Bjarni] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
13:59<@Bjarni> <--- we need special effects like those in OTTD :D
14:00<@Bjarni>forget about the fact that it claims to be recorded at 13 PM.... I think he means 1 PM or 13 O'clock
14:00<@Bjarni>damn Norwegians :P
14:00<+glx>13 PM is 1AM ;)
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14:01[~]fjb hates youtube for using flash.
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14:06<@Bjarni>doesn't look like 1 AM on the light
14:07<@Bjarni>looks like the peak light hour (this is way north of the Polar circle)
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14:09<LeviathNL>with the last couple of revision the casino resort get's generated almost all games, most of the time even twice.
14:10<fjb>shouldn't it not be generatd only once? I have to look into the wiki again.
14:11<LeviathNL>I think it should, but it is not on the wiki iirc (fore none of the tourist centres)
14:12<LeviathNL>All others appear only once
14:13<LeviathNL>and the japanese centre often appears on water
14:14<LeviathNL>I think george has to check it is not build on shores in the grf
14:16<LeviathNL>should I make a bugreport on the double tourist centres? I just confirmed it on the trunkhead and made screenshots
14:17<Rubidium>LeviathNL: is most likely a duplicate of FS#1424
14:17<fjb>Hm: Build > FF FF FF FFh tiles from a specific industry (specified ID) with the same layout (N=FF FF FF FFh forces only one industry of that type on the map)
14:18<LeviathNL>ok, I'll add my screenshots in the comments
14:19<LeviathNL>should I add my mapsize? Beleguas asked george once which he was using when he asked a question about multiple of the same tourist centre
14:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11421 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1431]: do not use a function that asserts when wrapping around the map's edge when you use the wrapping (and MP_VOID tiles) to determine whether the bridge can be build.
14:23<hylje>wrapped maps?
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14:24<hylje>Stoffe: please refrain from using public away
14:27<LeviathNL> crazy Japanese floating castle :)
14:29<hylje>its certainly a reference to a certain movie
14:31<fjb>My island is my casle...
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14:41<DaleStan>fjb, glx, Ammller, Belugas: Those "empty action 0"s are dummy real-sprites, that will never be drawn. Its a common system, and it works, but it's wrong.
14:42<LeviathNL>just placeholders while coding?
14:42<DaleStan>The correct solution is to use a set with one sprite in it, instead of a set with one real and three dummies.
14:43<fjb>DaleStan: Thank you.
14:43<fjb>Maybe I will learn nfo some day...
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14:44<DaleStan>It's like having a 4-entry table when only the third will ever be used. If that makes the others placeholders, then yes, but usually placeholders have useful information on both sides of them.
14:45<fjb>Empty placeholders... :-)
14:45<fjb>Ok, I will dig further into that grf.
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14:56<fjb>Hi SmatZ
15:03<SmatZ>hello Wolf and fjb
15:03<SmatZ>it was a long day
15:03<SmatZ>but I am back to write some OTTD code ;-)
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15:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11422 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#1430]: properly support genders coming from newgrfs instead of crashing.
15:07<fjb>SmatZ: PBS? :-)
15:07<MarkSlap>Bjarni, can you read swedish?
15:07<+glx>he can read a lot of languages even languages he never learnt
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15:08<SmatZ>fjb no... KUDr is the YAPF god ;-)
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15:12<LeviathNL>stillunknown, how is work on the DS-port?
15:12<stillunknown>You've got me mixed up with someone.
15:12<Ammller>SmatZ: your fake in real
15:13<Ammller>the signal thing
15:14<dihedral>lol LeviathNL
15:15<LeviathNL>Unknown_Entity, stillunknown what is the difference :P
15:15<SmatZ>Ammller: no :-)
15:15<dihedral>still u _Entity
15:16<dihedral>but that matches stillunknown_Entity too
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15:29<titus>man I hate replacing airports to bigger ones... :>
15:29<titus>don't mess with local authority!
15:30<Gonozal_VIII>always attach a bus station or something first or you could have to change lots of orders...
15:30<titus>and then.. I have 10 airplanes flying in....
15:31<titus>keeping their all order windows opened -> skip skip skip skip :)
15:31<titus>and same time trying to keep local authority happy -> win win
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15:32<titus>(yeah the #" international airport which was 1x1 bigger while I thought it took same area heh)
15:32<Gonozal_VIII>if they all have shared orders you could remove the airport from the orders until you have changed it
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15:33<Gonozal_VIII>then you don't have to skip
15:33<titus>hmmz oh, I can't replae a airport with another airport building just?
15:33<Gonozal_VIII>you have to demolish the old one first
15:33<titus>yeah same thing annoyed with old ttd :)
15:34<titus>when you got finally the bigger airports
15:34<Gonozal_VIII>there is a close airport patch in chrisin
15:34<Gonozal_VIII>keeps planes from landing
15:34<dihedral>shared orders, remove the order then replace airport, then add the order again
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>yes that's the normal way of doing that
15:35<titus>bonus was that the city managed to build its own crap into the area where was old airport :)
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe yes they can be very fast with that
15:35<titus>then again leveling some terrain to make space -> local authors not happy :)
15:35<dihedral>buy land?
15:36<titus>yeah that was my error
15:36<titus>should have had bought the land
15:36<dihedral>i.e. reserve space for bigger airports way in advance
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>there could be a new building in the same second you remove the old airport
15:36<titus>I wonder if sombody could make a patch(?) so the land gets bought in after airport gets demolished?
15:37<titus>though I think its really marginal patch but anyways
15:37<titus>or am I just alone with airports :)
15:37<dihedral>yep :-P
15:38<dihedral>well - i am off to bed, night everyone
15:38<Gonozal_VIII>they are way too cheap anyways so it's just fair to have some work with placing them ;-)
15:38<fjb>Night dihedral
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15:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11423 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_commons.h): -Codechange: store grfid when adding an override
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15:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11424 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix: an override can be set only once
15:43<@Bjarni> <MarkSlap> Bjarni, can you read swedish? <-- funny... earlier today I talked about some Swedish short story I read a while ago.... I guess that means yes ;)
15:43<@Bjarni><glx> he can read a lot of languages even languages he never learnt <-- yeah and the list of languages that I have never learned but are able to read increases all the time :D
15:43<@Bjarni>l33t will never be one of them though :/
15:44<Gonozal_VIII>1337 :-)
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15:45<@Bjarni>I think glx refers to the time when somebody posted Dutch wikipedia links and I read and understood them
15:45<+glx>or when you translated something for Sacro
15:45<@Bjarni>that too
15:45<titus>want that I start to feed some finnish links?-)
15:46<@Bjarni>I really like that he screwed up once again and mixed up languages and sent me Dutch text to translate and I told him what to do
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15:46<@Bjarni>German sounds like C
15:46<@Bjarni>command based language :P
15:47<Gonozal_VIII> <-- listen to that^^
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15:48<Gonozal_VIII>(not really rammstein)
15:48<@Bjarni>seriously... listen to German... it sounds like they are giving commands/orders all the time
15:48<titus>you've watched too much hitler's documents
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15:49<@Bjarni>actually I didn't
15:49<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know... i think russian is more like that
15:49<@Bjarni>and I have yet to watch "Der Untergang" even though I recorded it when it was on TV
15:49<titus>russian is pretty softy :)
15:50<titus>I always think the one who speaks russian is drunk...
15:50<@Bjarni>they usually are
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>austrian dialect is much softer than regular german
15:51<Ammler>Mucht: is that true? ^
15:51<@Bjarni>now that you mention it... you guys do speak differently
15:51<Mucht>thats not at all true
15:52<Mucht>at least, not the salzburg side of dialect
15:52<@Bjarni>but... I'm not entirely sure if it's more soft than regular German
15:52<Mucht>not in by any means
15:52<Gonozal_VIII><-- also austrian
15:52<Mucht>soft dialects are located in western and northern germany
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15:53<Gonozal_VIII>depends on the definition of soft...
15:53<hylje>you folks are arguing about the softness of the german language
15:53<@Bjarni>#define soft soft_gonozal
15:53<Ammler>hmm, where do we place swiss german then?
15:54<Gonozal_VIII>that's not german^^
15:54<Mucht>if you are refering to hitler, his 'r' is typical bavarian/austrian styled ;-)
15:54<@Bjarni>hylje: yeah... that would be like arguing about short Finnish words :P
15:54<hylje>contary to popular belief they do exist
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>i can understand swiss if i concentrate real hard... but they usually use german subtitles and such on tv
15:56<@Bjarni>so do non-staving Ethiopians, but it's not the same as they are common
15:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11425 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix [FS#1424]: overriden industries were ignored when mapping newgrf industry type to 'real' industry type
15:58[~]Belugas bows down and salutes glx's great work :)
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16:01<csaba_>I have many trouble with my wehicles
16:02<Gonozal_VIII>what kind of troubles?
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16:03<Ammler>swiss-german: Engelchen87
16:03<Ammler>:) stupid clipboard
16:04<csaba__>does it make sense transporting by wehicle?
16:05<Ammler>csaba__: why not?
16:05<csaba__>i think the transporting by wehicles is bad idea
16:06<Gonozal_VIII>how else would you transport stuff?
16:06<csaba__>after couple of year they going to wrong
16:06<+glx>it's ok to grow a city with road vehicles
16:06<Gonozal_VIII>ah road vehicles
16:07<csaba__>i think the railroad transportion is a better solution
16:07<Gonozal_VIII>depends on the vehicle sets you are using but with default you are right
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16:08<@Bjarni> <-- awesome... real life big boys in action
16:08<Gonozal_VIII>ok... not gay porn :-)
16:09<@Bjarni>no, it's the long, hot and steaming kind :P
16:09<@Belugas>the one where they make hot-dogs?
16:09<@Belugas>ho... reminds me...
16:10<@Bjarni>it also reminds me of something :)
16:10|-|Ammler kicked [#openttd] Belugas [No youtube please]
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16:10|-|Bjarni kicked [#openttd] Belugas [No youtyube please]
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16:10<@Bjarni>we don't have that rule anymore :P
16:10<@Bjarni>read the topic
16:10[~]Belugas is going to change the topic, as he finds youtube posting ennoying
16:11<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have to click ;-)
16:11<Gonozal_VIII>but ok.. your decision
16:11<@Bjarni>maybe he installed a plugin that automatically clicks all links
16:12<@Bjarni>in that case he were lucky that it wasn't a gay porn link :P
16:12|-|[Belugas] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no Posting
16:13[~]fjb hates Youtube and every website which uses proprietary formats.
16:13<hylje>/help ignore
16:14<@Bjarni>maybe we should consider that rule to make it fit our needs
16:14<Gonozal_VIII>proprietary formats <-- what?
16:14<@Bjarni>like: no posting of spamming links
16:14<@Belugas>[16:13] <Gonozal_VIII> you don't have to click ;-) <--- I don't click them. But the appearance is a bit... tiresome
16:14<hylje>/ignore -pattern "youtube" * PUBLICS
16:15<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: flash animations
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16:15<Gonozal_VIII>flash animations are cool :D
16:16<fjb>Why using Flash when there are open formats?
16:17<Gonozal_VIII>why windows?
16:18<Gonozal_VIII>that's the old everybody uses it because everybody uses it thing
16:18<fjb>Not everybody uses Windows. Not everybody can see Flash, even if he wants to.
16:18<SmatZ>a bit
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16:20<Gonozal_VIII>but the majority... so they will keep making hard/software that works best with that and people will keep using it
16:21<fjb>Flash doesn't work best, they only have a good marketing.
16:24|-|DaleStan_ [] has joined #openttd
16:24<@Bjarni>I like the linux system in the lab at uni. It lacks stuff like flash by default but we got permission to install it :)
16:24<@Bjarni>youtube works better with sound support though
16:25<fjb>The flash plugin crashes my browser every minute, if it plays something at all.
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>what browser?
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>works fine with me
16:26<@Bjarni>try reinstalling or something
16:26<@Bjarni>it works just fine here
16:26<@Bjarni>and in the lab at uni
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16:27<fjb>And last year I was explizitly forbidden to use that plugin. Then they changed their mind and allowed it again. Stupid people.
16:27<fjb>Reinstalling doesn't change anything.
16:27<@Bjarni>why would it be banned?
16:28<fjb>The licence stated that I was forbidden to use it.
16:28|-|DaleStan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:31<fjb>Always check the licence if a new version of the player or plugin gets released.
16:33<Sacro>what is wrong with my dutch?
16:33<@Bjarni>it's missing
16:33<fjb>The same as with mine? :-)
16:33<@Bjarni>you need me to translate for you
16:35<SmatZ>fjb: how was it forbidden? like 'anyone who uses nick fjb is forbidden to use this SOFTWARE' ?
16:35<@Bjarni>most likely
16:35<Sacro>Jeg haver sgu en stor kartoffel i min hals
16:36<Gonozal_VIII>store potatoes in the neck?
16:36<@Bjarni>well at one time a licence for a compiler stated that you were not allowed to install it on a computer with a specific compiler from another company
16:36<Sacro>Må jeg smage dine lakrisser
16:36<@Bjarni>Sacro: hentai
16:37<fjb>No, it was only allowed to use it on certain listed operating systems.
16:37<@Bjarni>you like languages... figure out what it means and why I said it :P
16:37<Sacro>(Can I taste some of your licorices?) Migth be good to use if your hungry, but remember: Danish licorices are the strongest in the world! if you eat more that 4 you will die instantly!!!
16:38<@Bjarni>I would likely die at the first one :s
16:38<@Bjarni>I'm not into anything like that
16:39<SmatZ>Sacro:|en doesn't seem to work on your text :-/
16:39<SmatZ>I didn't know Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands
16:40<@Bjarni>it's not
16:40<@Bjarni>they speak Netherlandish
16:40<@Bjarni>Dutch is spoken in Dutchia
16:40<SmatZ>then Google is broken - 'nl' is paired with 'Dutch'
16:40<@Bjarni>don't you know anything? :P
16:41<SmatZ>and doesn't translate Sacro's text...
16:41<SmatZ>Bjarni: Dutchia :-)
16:41<@Bjarni>that's because he tried to write something in Danish
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>that's a car^^
16:41<SmatZ>ah... so it wasn't Dutch
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16:42<@Bjarni>no. Sacro tries to be a pervert in many languages
16:42<SmatZ>hi skidd13
16:42<@Bjarni>hi skidd13
16:43<fjb>Moin skidd13
16:47<@Bjarni>Sacro stopped talking after I called him hentai
16:47<@Bjarni>he is likely looking at tentacle porn or something right now
16:48<Gonozal_VIII>i wonder why there is a different name for every country in every language...
16:49<@Bjarni>me too
16:49<fjb>Because the languages are different? :-P
16:49<@Bjarni>specially I wonder why we call Japan for Japan
16:49<@Bjarni>most if not all European languages do that
16:49<@Bjarni>but it's a European name
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16:49<@Bjarni>it's named "Nihon" in Japanese
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>they could simplidy it a bit so that they are able to say it without breaking their tonges but most names are entirely different
16:50<@Bjarni>I fail to connect those two names
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>i fail to connect austria and österreich
16:50<@Bjarni>yeah like the example I just wrote
16:51<@Bjarni>We call it Østrig which is basically just a word by word translation of Österreich
16:52<@Bjarni>Germany is a screwed up name though
16:52<@Bjarni>I have yet to find two languages where it's named the same
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>yes.. has nothing to do with deutschland
16:52<fjb>Do you know the game "Stille Post"? (I don't know how it is called in english).
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>obviously because it's german...
16:52<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> yes.. has nothing to do with deutschland <-- to make it even more fun, we call it "Tyskland"
16:53<fjb>When a word is not written but spread by mouth, over a long time and distance, it just changes.
16:53<Gonozal_VIII>but that much?
16:53<Sacro>Kde je tu nejbližší bordel?
16:53<skidd13>Gonozal_VIII: It's easy the name is different because the foregin countries call the land by the tribe which is next to them
16:53<skidd13>Example: Deutschland; Germany -> "Die Germanen"; Allemagna (I hope I spellt the italian right) -> The Allemannen
16:54<@Bjarni>Germany is based on Germania, the Roman word for the area in question. Tyskland is actually the name of the northern part of Germany (the part closest to Denmark)
16:54<fjb>That much. Just take a bunch of people. Tell a word to one of them without the others hearing it. Then one should tell it to the other. And then ask the last one what he has benn told. :-)
16:54<@Bjarni>Germany is a collection of countries and different countries has given the name of the combined country in different languages
16:55<@Bjarni>Sacro: don't talk about your perversions in here and please don't use prostitutes for those sick ideas. They are living beings too you know
16:56<@Bjarni>I don't know the origin of the word "Deutschland" though
16:56<Gonozal_VIII>what is the origin?
16:56<@Bjarni>I don't know :P
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>i somehow read "i don't like..."
16:57<@Bjarni>it's in German so odds are that I don't :P
16:58<Gonozal_VIII>maybe the common language in the parts was called deutsch before the country and they named it after that...
16:58<Gonozal_VIII>but i don't know
16:59<Gonozal_VIII>österreich has geographic reasons
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>"Teutonen" was a german tribe most likely
17:00<Gonozal_VIII>[22:59:52] Bartleby: Der Begriff deutsch leitet sich vom althochdeutschen theodisk, diutisk ab, was ursprünglich „diejenigen, die die Volkssprache sprechen (germanisch theoda, Volk) bedeutete, im Gegensatz zu denen die des Lateinischen mächtig waren.
17:00<skidd13>Bjarni: The word "Deutsch" commes from the medieval word "by the people"
17:00<@Bjarni>makes sense
17:01<@Bjarni> <-- LOL... find 200 errors :D
17:01<@Bjarni>Currency: hentai
17:01<@Bjarni>first one found
17:01<LeviathNL>people in the Netherlands where also called Duits
17:01<+glx>well that's uncy
17:01<Gonozal_VIII>so deutsch means: "can't speak latin"^^
17:02<@Bjarni>sounds right
17:03<LeviathNL>even our national anthem states we're German (sort of)
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>with all that global warming and ice caps melting you will have to move there soon anyways ;-)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>there is a language called "pennsylvania dutch", which is more or less a german dialect
17:05<Sacro>"...ik zou jou wel eens hebben willen zien staan durven blijven staan kijken."
17:05<LeviathNL>wtf :s
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a senseless aggrivation of verbs... but my dutch is weak :p
17:06<Rubidium>now the real question: Sacro, what does that mean?
17:06<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's actually correct, though *very* hard to read ;)
17:06<@Bjarni>Rubidium: he has no idea.... he is just copy pasting stuff
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>but it does read like all verbs
17:07<Sacro>"...if i could have drunk beer"
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, this overzealous verb conglomeration is often a joke in german ;)
17:07[~]Sacro ponders... # Weet je wat ik wil, een opblaaskrokodil.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: close :p
17:08<ln->pardon, bent u 'n romulaan?
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: at least you can sustain conversations if you accidently happen to run by a star trek convention in the netherlands ;)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Gonozal_VIII: "kölsch" is not exactly what i would classify "beer" :p
17:10<Gonozal_VIII>i thought that crocodile thing was kölsch...
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, kölsch and dutch are quite closely related :p
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>closer than saxon and dutch anyway ;)
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>i'm not very good with all those dialects
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, you are austrian :p
17:14<Gonozal_VIII>our dialect is much better :-)^^
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17:21<spark_>is there a way how to destroy road in the city ?
17:22<spark_>i need to place bigger airport
17:22<LeviathNL>the government needs to like you enough
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>plant some trees then they will like you more
17:22<spark_>i have outstanding rating
17:22<spark_>but the road is "closed"
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>ok.. there is a patch setting for that
17:22<spark_>it's made a circle from it
17:22<LeviathNL>click on the town name and than local authority to see how they like you
17:22<spark_>or it doesn't matter ?
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>configure patches, construction tab, allow removal of more town-owned roads
17:23<spark_>ah it's working thanks
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17:25<spark_>now then don't like me very much :D
17:26<spark_>i'm just "very good" :)
17:26<Gonozal_VIII>that's not bad
17:26<spark_>hmm and is there a way how to change old vehicles ? something authomated ..
17:27<spark_>like "replace vehicles" for new types
17:27<Gonozal_VIII>yes autoreplace
17:27<LeviathNL>look in the patch options under vehicles
17:27<spark_>ah, autorenew ;)
17:28<spark_>thanks guys very very much ;)
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>open the vehicle list and select it from the "manage list" dropdown
17:28<spark_>are there t-shirts of openttd ?
17:28<spark_>that replace is only for new types
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>ah... you wanted old to new same type ok then
17:29<Rubidium>autorenew == replace vehicle with same type, autoreplace == replace vehicle with other type
17:31<spark_>got it , thanks
17:33<spark_>that's crazy game ;)
17:33<Gonozal_VIII>bestest evah^^
17:34<spark_>C'est ca.
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17:34<spark_>btw, when the game ends ?
17:34<Gonozal_VIII>you get a screen in 2051
17:34<spark_>but no new inventions
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17:36<Gonozal_VIII>no new inventions after that, no... i think even with newgrfs there is nothing new
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17:43[~]lolman wanders into #openttd for the first time in a while
17:43<lolman>Ello :)
17:44<LeviathNL>in unmovable_map.h; IsStatueTile and IsStatue can't you combine these 2 functions?
17:44<Rubidium>yes and no
17:45<Rubidium>calling IsStatueTile is a waste of resources when you already are sure it is an unmovable tile
17:45<+glx>one asserts, the other one don't IIRC
17:45<Rubidium>furthermore IsStatueTile will call IsStatue
17:47<Sacro>Hoe dichter bij nul, hoe strakker om de lul:
17:47<Sacro>lolman: i am teaching dutch
17:47<lolman>Sacro, why not get people that are actually Dutch to do that?
17:47<Sacro>lolman: cos uncyclopedia is perfectly fine
17:48<lolman>Ooh, bjarni's in :p
17:48|-|mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
17:48|-|mode/#openttd [+b *!*Sacro@*.karoo.KCOM.COM] by Rubidium
17:48|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] Rubidium [Sacro]
17:48|-|mode/#openttd [-o Rubidium] by Rubidium
17:48<lolman>rut roh
17:49<Gonozal_VIII>why that now?
17:49<lolman>Bjarni, I was in Hull a few days ago :P
17:49<@Bjarni>I'm sorry
17:49<lolman>And this IRC connection is running through Hull too...
17:50[~]Bjarni expects lolman to time out any minute
17:50<LeviathNL>correct me if I'm wrong but IsStatue is only called by IsStatueTile. Which checks before calling IsStatue if IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE)... why the assertion?
17:50<Rubidium>to make sure IsStatue isn't called inappropriately
17:50<lolman>Bjarni, I probably will, knowing how reliable KCOM are
17:50<Rubidium>and you may not know it, but with release builds assertions are turned off
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>remove isstatue?
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17:52<LeviathNL>I did not know :) and i just learned what a assertion is but if you merge it there is no IsStatue so it can't be called (inappropriately). (Sorry if I'm annoying, just trying to understand)
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17:53<Rubidium>what's the sense in checking whether a tile is 'unmovable' when you already know that?
17:53<Rubidium>the same thing happens in much more places
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause><Gonozal_VIII> why that now? <- unsuitible profanity i assume
17:56<Gonozal_VIII>i couldn't understand what it was... was it that bad?
17:57<LeviathNL>I still fail to see the difference between return IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE) && IsStatue(t); and return IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE) && (GetUnmovableType(t) == UNMOVABLE_STATUE); But that is my problem and I'll try to figure it out myself (thank for the attempt to explain :))
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need to understand that, it's uncyclopedia :p
17:58<Rubidium>LeviathNL: it's just that all the IsXXXTile(t) functions are IsTileType(t, MP_Y) && IsXXX(t)
18:00<LeviathNL>oh, it's just more clear to keep them all the same
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>why not merge all of them into something like getTileType(t) ?
18:03<LeviathNL>little typo in the comment on line 194; transmitter should be lighthouse.
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18:05<LeviathNL>tiletype can for instance be MP_UNMOVABLE but this can be transmitters, lighthouses, statues etc etc you also need to check if this is right (I think)
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18:08<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
18:11<SmatZ>skidd13: I just wanted to say - with some algorithms (probably the one with uint x = 0 to 31) to FindFirstBit will be compiled as one instruction, BSF.. so it is the fastest solution in one instruction
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18:14<Rubidium>still depends on how long the instruction takes
18:15<Rubidium>but then again, it's likely that a bsf instruction is cheaper than jumps, compares and shifts
18:15<Rubidium>although you never know
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18:16<SmatZ>thats true... bsf is rather "expensive" instruction, but given how many instructions and branches you save...
18:16<ln->has someone travelled on the eurostar?
18:17<Rubidium>at least the Queen of England IIRC
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny how people always ask the wrong questions :p
18:18<SmatZ>from AMD64 optimization guide: BSF takes 8 ticks...
18:18<Rubidium>and a shift? 4?
18:19<SmatZ>1 tick
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>jumps usually kill the pipeline...
18:19<SmatZ>simple instructions are also more likely to be paired
18:19<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Not with jump prediction...
18:19<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: yes... but you do not have to use jumps
18:19<Rubidium>fjb: also with jump prediction
18:20<Rubidium>as the word says, it's a prediction
18:20<SmatZ>there is conditional instruction execution, laki conditional move
18:20<SmatZ>yes :)
18:20<fjb>Modern processors calculate both possible branches ahead.
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: that is still half a wasted pipeline
18:20<SmatZ>simple rule - branch bacward is likely to be taken, branch forward is likely not to be taken... but there are also some branch caches
18:20<SmatZ>yes :-/
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yeah, but you also need time to determine wether a branch is forward or backward
18:22<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: it can be done during instruction decode
18:23<SmatZ>if it has immediate address, not computed during execution
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>also, this assumes the compiler does some kind of "sane" ordering of basic blocks
18:25<SmatZ>or the programmer is aware of all these things
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>(a basic block is a sequence of data flow that ends with a jump)
18:25<skidd13>SmatZ: The current way of implementation (3 more or less different functions) is the fastest. But I'm working on the cleanup of the whole thing to group the stuff togehter in math_func.h ;)
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>an abstract jump to one or more locations, the resulting code can have more or less jumps
18:26<SmatZ>skidd13: what about FindFirstBit2x64? would it be problem if it found a bit set outside the first 6 bits of both bytes?
18:28<Rubidium>would generally indicate something went wrong somewhere; read as: I don't think those bits are used when FindFirstBit is going to be done.
18:28<skidd13>The input of the functions do not have any other bits than the first 6 and the first 6 << 8 set.
18:28<SmatZ>aha thanks
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18:44<skidd13>SmatZ: What about a mix of lookup-table and calculation? Lookup if (value & 0x3F) else calculation?
18:45<SmatZ>skidd13: I wonder why the simplest solution is not the fastest
18:46<SmatZ>you may try it, but I am not sure if it will help
18:47<SmatZ> while((x & (1U << pos)) == 0) { pos++; }
18:47<SmatZ>this one
18:48<skidd13>I know. This one is more or less a fast log2(int x) implementation ;)
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18:56<skidd13>SmatZ: The reason why the complex function is faster should be the better convergence.
19:05<SmatZ>skidd13: so I merged 2 functions and one macro into one, and this is the result:
19:05<SmatZ>original 0m42.990s
19:06<SmatZ>"alternative 32bit function" 0m41.790s
19:06<SmatZ>"clean version" 0m41.820s
19:06<SmatZ>names taken from
19:07<SmatZ>the reason why current trunk is slower may be that it cannot inline FindFirstBit
19:09<skidd13>And the lookup version?
19:11<SmatZ>didn't test it...
19:11<skidd13>What about 2 versions a FindFirstBit6(const uint8 x) which uses the lookup table and a FindFirstBit32(uint32 x) wich uses the alternative code?
19:12<skidd13>So the FindFirstBit2x64 could be killed by the FindFirstBit32. Cause it seems to be faster or at least equal to the current trunk
19:13<SmatZ>the difference is so little...
19:14<skidd13>But less code ;)
19:14<skidd13>:%s /less/less doubled/g
19:16<skidd13>The clean is the modularest, but the convergence of the alternative is better. :( Hard to decide
19:17<skidd13>Maybe keep the ideas as comments in the code ;)
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19:18<skidd13>damn it's late... good night
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19:20<SmatZ>skidd13: lookup version 0m43.550s
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19:40<SacroIsSorry>I'm sorry
19:40<SacroIsSorry>no more pasting crap
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>err... circumventing a ban is not quite the fine english way either...
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19:45<SacroIsSorry>fine, I'll do the british thing and go have a cup of tea
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19:52<fjb>Hm, it's 6 years into the game and most ECS second level industries are gone. :-(
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19:59<+glx>fjb: you should have at least 1 of each
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: if i understood things correctly, there is like a 5 year protection period
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>if you did not service the industry until then, it will likely close
20:05<fjb>Yes, one of each, but that is not much that early in the game when you can not connect them because they are too far away.
20:05<+glx>you have 5 years to start to use them
20:07<fjb>5 years are not much. I had to make some money first. It's not that easy at the start of the game (if you don't play with everything set to easy).
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, it was designed for TTDPatch, which does not have huge maps
20:08<fjb>I wouldn't mind if new industries would appear more often to replace the closed ones.
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>oh that makes me think of the good old times...
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>where i thought that 5 tile trains were huge
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>and most of my trains were 3 tiles
20:09<fjb>:-) I don't like trains that short. It's plain unrealistic on the main lines.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with long trains is that you need long stations as well
20:10<fjb>And ships do appear now for the first time, so I couln'd get the fish earlier. Maybe by airship, but that was too expensive.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>without diagonal and bendy stations that is quite difficult
20:11<fjb>A bit difficult in the mountains, I admit.
20:12<fjb>Routng restrictions would help, so you could easier send long trains to long platforms.
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>YAPF does handle that
20:12<fjb>Maybe we get diagonal stations one time.
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>it gives penalty for too long or too short platforms
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>so trains choose the platform that fits best
20:13<fjb>Oh, I never tried it. That sounds intelligent. But does it also send small trains to short platforms? Else they would block the long platforms.
20:13<fjb>That is clever.
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>you can tweak the settings to fit your needs best
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>(more complex station entrances might need higher settings to counter the rerouting penalty)
20:14<fjb>Now we need only station tiles that give priorities to different freights.
20:28<Gonozal_VIII>could a grf do that?
20:30<fjb>I don't think so.
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 12 20:36:52 2007
---Logopened Mon Nov 12 20:53:14 2007
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20:53|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 66 |-| +op [3] |-| +voice [2] |-| normalnych [61]
20:55|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 121 sekundy
21:04<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties
21:05<Eddi|zuHause2>but that does not mean it could not be specified
21:05<Gonozal_VIII>me neither but i don't know much about grfs and what they can do
21:06<Eddi|zuHause2>damn, civ4 always crashes at the same point
21:08<Gonozal_VIII>which point?
21:08<Eddi|zuHause2>somewhere far into the game...
21:09<Eddi|zuHause2>somewhere between my savegame and the beginning of the next round
21:09<Eddi|zuHause2>and it was such a great savegame...
21:10<Gonozal_VIII>the ai always ends up destroying the planet...
21:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i didn't get to the nuclear war yet...
21:10<Gonozal_VIII>one city challange on a huge map without water...
21:11<Eddi|zuHause2>last game i won with cultural victory
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>they threw like 20 nukes each per turn...
21:12<@Belugas>[21:06] <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties <--- does not exists yet
21:12<@Belugas>would be ottd specific
21:12<@Belugas>i doubt it would be usefull,
21:12<Gonozal_VIII>the game didn't last long after manhattan project
21:12<@Belugas>since yo can change values via config
21:12<Eddi|zuHause2>this time i am quite advanced in technology and size, and was just preparing to attack some of the minor civilisations on the other continents
21:13<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: well, the main point here would be (newgrf) station tiles which give penalties for different kinds of cargo
21:14<Eddi|zuHause2>like if i build a coal station it penalises anything else
21:14<Gonozal_VIII>or negative penalty for coal...
21:14<Eddi|zuHause2>or a passenger station penalises goods
21:14<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: there cannot be any negative penalties
21:14<@Belugas>good point, worth considering
21:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: the YAPF implementation would then be OTTD specific, and TTDP could figure out its own way to obey to these preference rules
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21:19<@Belugas>i really doubt ttdp could do anything with those values. they do not have yapf, and i'm not sure if they have played with the pathfinding
21:21<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not need to have anything to do with yapf values... more like "prefer cargo: X,Y; neutral cargo: A,B,C; unwanted cargo: U,V"
21:21<Eddi|zuHause2>and then in the config you have "yapf_station_prefer=10, yapf_station_neutral=100, yapf_station_unwanted=1000" or similar
21:26<@Belugas>so...those numbers are only good for us, not for them. That does not mean we should not have our onw specs, it just means they would not be usefull for them...
21:27<@Belugas>but if ever they use the properties required, it has to be within the context it was designed for, otherwise, it willbe a ball of confusion
21:27<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the actual numbers should still be changeable through the config
21:27<@Belugas>no. if it comes from a grf, it will have to superseed the config
21:27<@Belugas>otherwise, it's useless
21:28<@Belugas>grf represent the view of an author
21:28<Gonozal_VIII>wanted, neutral, unwanted can be used in different ways
21:28<Eddi|zuHause2>as the meaningfulness of the yapf penalties heavily depends on the persons building style, it should really be a per-user setting
21:29<Gonozal_VIII>[03:21:12] Eddi|zuHause2: it does not need to have anything to do with yapf values... more like "prefer cargo: X,Y; neutral cargo: A,B,C; unwanted cargo: U,V" <-- that sounds good
21:30<@Belugas>[21:30] <Eddi|zuHause2> as the meaningfulness of the yapf penalties heavily depends on the persons building style, it should really be a per-user setting <--- then why specify it with grf???
21:30<Gonozal_VIII>here it can be handled with the yapf penalties, patch could use it in any other way they wan
21:30<Gonozal_VIII>not actual numbers in the grf, only types of cargo
21:31<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: the grf only specifies which cargo to prefer, the config specifies how much influence the preference has
21:31<Gonozal_VIII>can't change that in the config
21:32<Eddi|zuHause2>a small station with big detours at the entrance might need very big penalties per tile
21:32<@Belugas>i thugh you guys were talking about yapf penalties defined by grf
21:33<Gonozal_VIII>it only defines that there is a penalty not how high it is
21:33<Eddi|zuHause2>i was responding to this:
21:33<Eddi|zuHause2>[2007-11-13 02:14] <fjb> Now we need only station tiles that give priorities to different freights.
21:33<Eddi|zuHause2>[2007-11-13 02:28] <Gonozal_VIII> could a grf do that?
21:34<@Belugas>you drive me nuts
21:34[~]Belugas hides
21:34<Eddi|zuHause2>and my suggestion was: let the grf specify quality, and let the config specify quantity
21:35<Gonozal_VIII>which is a very good way imho
21:37[~]Belugas disagrees
21:37<@Belugas>it's all or nothing
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>all or nothing?
21:37<@Belugas>otherwise, it's pretty much a hack
21:38<@Belugas>like... specify the penality, not just that it shoudl have penalty
21:38<Eddi|zuHause2>it does really not make a lot of sense to specify yapf penalties per grf, because the yapf penalties were always intended as a per-user setting, not a per-game setting
21:38<Gonozal_VIII>it would be the same as all the other yapf penalties
21:38<@Belugas>then, yo do not need yapf specifying that there shold be a penalty via grf
21:38<Eddi|zuHause2>different users may use different yapf penalties depending on their building style
21:39<Eddi|zuHause2>well you need some way to specify that a certain platform was intended for goods dropoff, and another for passenger pickup
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21:39<Eddi|zuHause2>within the same station
21:40<Eddi|zuHause2>and my idea that this would be best served by the newgrf station specification
21:40<Eddi|zuHause2>a person designing a passenger station graphic might as well specify that passenger is the preferred cargo
21:41<Gonozal_VIII>and coal for example as unwanted... whatever the grf designer wants
21:41<DaleStan>Why can't you add signal restrictions, and then trust the users to apply the proper restrictions to the signals instead?
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21:42<Eddi|zuHause2>because! :p
21:42<Eddi|zuHause2>i think this would be much easier
21:43<Eddi|zuHause2>because it would work completely automatic, without user interaction
21:43<@Belugas>where is the fun of playing then?
21:43<DaleStan>Easier for whom? And aren't you going to have to add signal restrictions anyway?
21:44<Eddi|zuHause2>no, this has nothing to do with signals... the infrastructure for pathfinder penalties is already there, just have to add another case
21:45<Eddi|zuHause2>and if i throw in the evil r-word now, people will get mad
21:45<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: the player still has fun in designing station layouts
21:46<Eddi|zuHause2>just that now his coal trains will actually go to the coal platform, and the wood trains will take the wood platform
21:46<Eddi|zuHause2>instead of a random mix
21:49<@Belugas>why not use waypoints?
21:49<@Belugas>just mark the entrances
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>waypoints are not flexible
21:49<Eddi|zuHause2>well, that uses additional space
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>trains have to take the waypoint...
21:50<Eddi|zuHause2>note that YAPF penalties do not prevent the coal train from taking the wood platform, if the coal platform is already taken
21:50<@Belugas>yup, so either way, you're not any better
21:51<Gonozal_VIII>but that's exactly what i would want the trains to do
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>but you do know the difference between "preference" and "restriction"
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>prefer the platform of the right type but take a neutral one, if the best is already taken... waypoints don't do that
21:53<Gonozal_VIII>the station could consist of some wood platforms, some default and some passenger platforms for example
21:54<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly... if the coal platform is taken, try to take a general goods platform, but avoid the passenger platform as much as possible
21:54<DaleStan><Gonozal_VIII> prefer the platform of the right type but take a neutral one, if the best is already taken... waypoints don't do that <-- But restrictions, properly used, can.
21:55<DaleStan>And won
21:55<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2: but to achieve that, you will have to define a new yapf setting, since the only one that actually exists is for the whole station
21:55<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i go to bed
21:55<@Belugas>plus, the notion of platform does not exists
21:55<DaleStan>And won't messing with the station penalties mess with the chance of a passenger train going around the station instead of through a passenger setting.
21:56<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: it does, YAPF determines platform length, and gives different penalties depending on it
21:56<Gonozal_VIII>neutral penalty is the same as the old station penalty
21:57<Eddi|zuHause2>DaleStan: trains already try to avoid station tiles that they are not scheduled to go to
21:57<@Belugas>you are righ, haven't looked low enough
21:57<DaleStan>But changing the YAPF penalties will change how hard they try to avoid them, right?
21:57<Eddi|zuHause2>DaleStan: yes, that is exactly the point ;)
21:57<DaleStan>Possibly to the point that they no longer avoid them when they still should.
21:58<Eddi|zuHause2>not if you adjust the penalties accordingly
21:59<DaleStan>And what percentage of the users have ever manually edited openttd.cfg?
21:59<Gonozal_VIII>you don't need to if you have a good default value
21:59<Eddi|zuHause2>DaleStan: and what percentage of the other users actually depend on these settings?
22:00<DaleStan>If you're relying on the default being good, why is it in the config at all?
22:01<Gonozal_VIII>because advanced players can adjust it so that their complicated stations and natworks work the best way possible
22:01<Eddi|zuHause2>DaleStan: it was KUDr's design choice to have all penalties modifyable
22:02<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. i recently needed to adjust the value for using depot as turning point, because it was lower than the station penalty for long stations
22:03<Eddi|zuHause2>so instead of passing through the station, the trains were going through a far off depot, clogging a totally underdimensioned line
22:04<Eddi|zuHause2>like i previously said, for certain building styles, the default values loose their sense
22:04<@Belugas>amd what if the highly hypothetical grf yapf setting was more a multiplier? in would make more sens to me
22:05<Eddi|zuHause2>that could work, too... but my idea sounded cleaner...
22:05<Eddi|zuHause2>and i was going to bed...
22:06<Gonozal_VIII>i also think that would be cleaner... and good night
22:07<@Belugas>i don't get the point of specifying that said platform is yapf penaltisable without anythin more, since the rest is already specified in the conmfig
22:07<@Belugas>that is non sens
22:09<Gonozal_VIII>vehicles also data about what they are refittable to and the specification of the goods is stored elsewhere
22:09|-|Hendikins|Work changed nick to Hendikins
22:11<@Belugas>that is so not relevant...
22:11<@Belugas>i was more thinking to the same system that is used for costs
22:11<@Belugas>grf costs are just multipliers
22:12<@Belugas>as simple as that
22:13<Gonozal_VIII>would mean more new data in the grf
22:14<Gonozal_VIII>not needed
22:16<@Belugas>[21:06] <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties <--- and how, otherwise, are you going to achieve this?
22:17<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't say that, but i dont have any idea about the code so...
22:18<@Belugas>so don't tell me "[22:16] <Gonozal_VIII> not needed"
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>well if it's stored in one place you don't have to store it everywhere in the grf
22:19<Gonozal_VIII>and the user could modify it
22:19<@Belugas>then, forget the grf, it is not waht you are looking for
22:20<Gonozal_VIII>it has to provide information which freight type the station is for
22:33<Gonozal_VIII>going to sleep now.. sleeping is important for humans...
22:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11426 /trunk/src/tree_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Just one boolean inversion instead of two
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 13 00:00:32 2007