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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-13

---Logopened Tue Nov 13 00:00:32 2007
---Daychanged Tue Nov 13 2007
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02:25<skidd13>SmatZ: http://paste.openttd.org/293 I think I got the faster allgorithm :) But somewhere there's a little mistake in it :(
02:26<skidd13>@seen SmatZ
02:26<@DorpsGek>skidd13: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 5 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <SmatZ> skidd13: lookup version 0m43.550s
02:26<skidd13>Hope he'll get it then!
02:26<skidd13>SmatZ: http://paste.openttd.org/293 I think I got the faster allgorithm :) But somewhere there's a little mistake in it :(
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03:48<Sacro>morning
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04:56<dihedral>hello
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05:00<skidd13_WORK>Hi
05:02<dihedral>hello skidd
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09:11<fjb>Moin
09:12<SpComb>hmm... myottd.net's going down for maintenance
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09:14[~]SpComb hopes the box boots up after a new kernel installation and mdadm configuration madness
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09:14<SpComb>one of the hard drives in the RAID array (or the fan - hard to tell) is making an evil rattling noise, and smartctl thinks that the drives don't support SMART anymore
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09:15<fjb>Oh, oh...
09:19<SpComb>bah, I thought it had failed to boot up as it wasn't pinging, so I detached my second monitor (all neatly velcro cable-tied up to every other cable in the system), plugged it in to the server and the UPS under the bed, and turns out it's just fscking 750GB of data
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09:20<fjb>:-)
09:21<fjb>Hope the fscking will succeed.
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09:23<SpComb>it did
09:23[~]SpComb shuts it down again, as well as qmsk, to plug in the UPS data cable
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09:38<SpComb>huh, I found SMART was disabled in the BIOS, so I enabled it... still doesn't work :(
09:44<fjb>Hm, did it work before?
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09:49<SpComb>yes, it did
09:50<Tefad>clock set?
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09:56<SpComb>BATTDATE : 07/30/02
09:56<SpComb>this thing was supposed to have new batteries in it when I bought it last summer (2006) :/
09:56<SpComb>that looks like m/d/y
09:56<SpComb>which would indicate the batteries being five years old
09:57<SpComb>I guess you can't expect everything when you buy a 3kVA ups on eBay for 280 euros
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>this is exactly why "all number" dates are bad
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>because there is no indication what is the order...
09:59<SpComb>well, it might be y/d/m, in which case APC's service ninjas sneaked into our server room some time last winter and replaced the batteries
09:59<SpComb>I think it's more likely that the "refurbished" UPS that I was sold with "new batteries" actually contained the same old batteries that it always had
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>y/d/m is never a valid date format anyway...
10:00<Eddi|zuHause2>and the only useful date formats are d/m/y or y/m/d
10:01[~]SpComb tests by unplugging the UPS
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10:02<fjb>There are ISO dates, like 2007-11-13.
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10:04[~]SpComb has a server, a desktop, two monitors, his speakers, joystick, and desk light plugged into this UPS
10:04<LeviathNL>is there a wawy to use the ECS Town vector and PBI together? ECS disables all cargos. and PBI only "enables" lumber, fuel oil and plastic
10:04<SpComb>~70 minutes runtime :P
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10:06<dihedral>http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/taxonomy_menu/4/49/66
10:06<dihedral>^ pertty interesting :-)
10:07<dihedral>sim city made open source
10:12<fjb>Really interesting.
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause2>LeviathNL: i don't think they were ever designed to work together
10:17<LeviathNL>setting parameter 1 of ECS to 1 fixed it
10:17<Eddi|zuHause2>similarly you can't mix DBSet and UKRS
10:17<LeviathNL>ECS Town wiki : parameter 1 Disable (0, default) / Enable (1) default cargoes
10:24<Unknown_Entity>can someone tell me where the number 6144 in viewport.cpp:1524 comes from? ParentSpriteToDraw *parent_list[6144];
10:27[~]Belugas has no idea at all
10:32<frosch123>Unknown_Entity: Because CS thought 6144 parent sprites are enough.
10:33<frosch123>and perhaps the array was 64k somewhen.
10:36<Unknown_Entity>frosch123: ok, so no apparent reason. :) thanks
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10:37<@Belugas>could very well be, frosch123
10:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11427 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Forgot to Truncate the string "Many Random Industries" in the funding industry window. In some languages, it gets drawn outside of the gui.
10:43<frosch123>Hmm, I just checked OTTD 0.1. So CS thought 750 parent sprites were enough. Don't know who increased it zo 6144...
10:44<dihedral>frosch123: svn blame?
10:45<Unknown_Entity>frosch123: thanks. i might set it back to 750 here. i'm running short on memory anyway
10:45<dihedral>?
10:45<dihedral>btw - while i think of it...
10:46<Unknown_Entity>dihedral: 4 MB - binary isn't a lot to work with...
10:46<Unknown_Entity>(4 MB - binary)
10:46<dihedral>storing the generation seed in the config file....
10:47<dihedral>when ever one starts a dedicated server it will use that seed for generating the map
10:47<@Belugas>!seen BigBB
10:47<@Belugas>@seen BigBB
10:47<@DorpsGek>Belugas: BigBB was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <BigBB> IIRC the bridge behavior was changed for the bridge-over-all patch
10:48<@Belugas>thank you, faithfull little bot
10:48<dihedral>hello Belugas
10:48<dihedral>:-)
10:49<@Belugas>hello dihedral
10:49<@Belugas>blame = r138 truelight ParentSpriteToDraw *parent_list[6144];
10:50<dihedral>:-)
10:50<frosch123>@openttd commit 138
10:50<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by truelight :: r138 trunk/viewport.c (2004-08-25 08:57:25 UTC)
10:50<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Add: 64x64 stations are now nicely painted (increased size of
10:50<@DorpsGek>frosch123: parent_list)
10:51<frosch123>We must be bored to check such things :)
10:51<dihedral>or just miss truelight :-)
10:53<Unknown_Entity>it might be useful for me. thanks for digging it up :)
10:54<@Belugas>well... since he left, i guess the more we know, the best it is ;)
10:54<@Belugas>just... why the heck did he choose such an odd number
10:55<Unknown_Entity>maybe that's how many sprites a 64x64 station needs
10:55<frosch123>64*64 = 4096; +50% savety -> 6144
10:56<@Belugas>could very well be :)
10:56<Eddi|zuHause2>@calc 3*2^11
10:56<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
10:57<Eddi|zuHause2>err... what?
10:58<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause2: try **
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>@calc 3*2**11
10:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: 6144
10:58<frosch123>But a 64x64 station is not drawn in one part
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>odd...
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11:05<skidd13>Hi
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11:08<dihedral>hello skidd13
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11:29<SmatZ>hello
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12:43<LeviathNL>is there a smart way to let multiple trains use a single track?
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>PBS was very efficient for that scenario
12:50<fjb>The actual presignal blocks are a bit braindead, sometimes...
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12:53<LeviathNL>I'm using the base cost mod on mountainous rough terrain and building a foundation costs around 55.000€. Laying 2 lines is difficult :P
12:54<dihedral>:-D
12:54<dihedral>nice to see the base cost modifyer elsewhere in action
12:56<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, like i said, the only real solution is to use PBS (or at least the "intelligent presignalling" part of PBS)
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13:16<Ammler>LeviathNL: thats why phazorx patched ottd
13:16<Ammler>ottd takes costs from slope to build foundations
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13:16<Ammler>his patch just mulitplied the normal track with about 8, iirc
13:17<Phazorx>4
13:17<Phazorx>affecting anything that might require foundation
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13:17<Phazorx>i think "associated" costs were multiplied by for making total cost per being 5x
13:18<Ammler>http://wwottdgd.ammler.ch/wwottdgd/patches/wwottdgd_modified_slope_costs.diff
13:19<Phazorx>okay 8 :)
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13:29<ln->let's rename the "Patch settings" to something else, ok?
13:29<ln->objections?
13:30<Ammler>Switches?
13:31<ln->this was discussed before, and back then some good suggestions were made. does anyone remember?
13:32<hylje>no
13:33<fjb>Preferences? :-)
13:33<Prof_Frink>ln-: Merge game options and difficulty settings as pages on the patches dialogue and call the whole thing "options" or "settings"
13:34<Ammler>indeed, and maybe split options where aren't changeable after start
13:36<Phazorx>"tweaks"
13:36<Prof_Frink>newgrf settings could also be added to the dialogue
13:37<Ammler>hmm, something like 2 list, left all activated grfs and right all available
13:38<DaleStan>It might also be good to split interface settings (which can be changed independent of the server in MP) from the gameplay settings.
13:38<DaleStan>I think some of those are properly split, but I'm not sure if they all are.
13:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11428 /trunk/src/table/cargo_const.h: -Fix: wrong string used for candy/sweets units_volume
13:40<Ammler>and the company switches, like autoreplace of old vehicels
13:40<Ammler>is there an other one?
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13:47<alain>hi
13:48<alain>can any one help me find some grf files
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13:52<fjb>What are you looking for?
13:53<fjb>Oh, he is gone.
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13:53<fjb>People don'T have time, now he has to solve his problem alone. :-)
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13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11429 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11129): some TextID to StringID 'translations' didn't follow our format
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14:37<Sacro> Node *left, *right;
14:37<Sacro> int childCount() {
14:37<Sacro> return !!left + !!right;
14:37<Sacro> }
14:37<Sacro>XD
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>!!?
14:37<Sacro>not not
14:38<Gonozal_VIII>why?
14:38<Sacro>converts a cast to a bool
14:38<Gonozal_VIII>what language is that?
14:38<Sacro>C
14:38<Gonozal_VIII>ah..
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>and bool + bool is int?
14:40<Rubidium>yes
14:40<Rubidium>effectively a int is a bool and viceversa
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>ok... nice trick then
14:40<Rubidium>pointers are also seen as booleans in ifs
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>i only know some java...
14:41<Rubidium>java is much more strict about types
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>yes
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14:46<LeviathNL>can I interest someone in making highlights for autoroad? (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=637880#p637880)
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15:04[~]Belugas is interested but way too busy to do anything
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15:08<LeviathNL>Ammler, so basecost grf does not work a 100% as intended on normal openttd?
15:08<Ammler>why do mean?
15:08<LeviathNL>Ammler> LeviathNL: thats why phazorx patched ottd
15:10<Ammler>it only changes basecosts configurable over parameters
15:11<Ammler>I have no idea who decided to take raise/lower land cost for foundations too
15:11<Ammler>hmm, was foundations already in TTD?
15:12<Prof_Frink>Only for town buildings
15:12<Ammler>maybe we should check how it works with the Patch
15:13<Ammler>Is there space for another basecost?
15:14<Ammler>maybe that would be worth to add as its own
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15:17<Ammler>DaleStan: was it ever discussed to add foundations as own base cost?
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15:36<Wolf01>hello
15:36<LeviathNL>hi
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>hi
15:45<@Belugas>ih
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16:14<helb>Is it possible to change autosave interval from (rcon) console? I can't find it on the wiki...
16:18<Wolf01>search for the variable name
16:19<Wolf01>in the configure patches code
16:22<Gonozal_VIII>that's not a patch
16:23<Wolf01>really? i must see
16:23<Gonozal_VIII>it's in game options not configure patches
16:24<Wolf01>oh yes, i see
16:24<Wolf01>so i think that changing it with rcon is not possible
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16:36<helb>Wolf01: okay, thanks...
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16:52<LeviathNL>making a drivetrough station on a street tile costs the same amount as without one, I think it is better if it is less.
16:53<LeviathNL>with the normal prices it isn't much of a difference but with grfs like the basecost mod it is. You also have to pay for the foundation again which is very expensive
16:55<Ammler>LeviathNL: again, foudations take the price from raise/lower land, so it has nothing to do with the grf
16:56<Ammler>and btw, you can change the values or deactivate some i.e. for you, you should deacitvate changes for raise/lower land
16:57<LeviathNL>I know now, this has nothing to do with the foundations being high priced but just the fact it uses these costs when building a drivetrough on an roadtile
16:58<LeviathNL>it is a suggestion for a change in the openttd source, not the grf
16:59<LeviathNL>the example of using the basecost mod is just to show the difference is not always a small amount
16:59<Ammler>yeah, I would suggest to add a new base cost for foundations
17:00<Ammler>yeah, we liked to have terraforming very expensive
17:01<Ammler>LeviathNL: you know the wiki page about basecosts.grf?
17:01<Ammler>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/Basecosts.grf
17:01<LeviathNL>no but if you want to point me to the parameter settings I already tweaked them to my liking
17:02<Ammler>:)
17:02<Ammler>its also easy to add other costs, if you need
17:03<Ammler>It was a "fast" hack for wwottdgd
17:03<Ammler>this things would be changeable: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=BaseCosts
17:03<LeviathNL>I indeed would also like a separate foundation basecost but right now this is giving me very challenging gameplay :P
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17:06<dihedral>Ammler: does basecost work with 0.5.3?
17:06<Ammler>of course
17:06<Ammler>at least, it should
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17:06<Gonozal_VIII>to raise land you only hate to dump some dirt there, for a foundation you need to build a wall and fill it with dirt, foundations shouldn't be cheaper than raising
17:07<Ammler>only tested it wiht nightly ottd and ttdp
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17:08<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: it depense what do you rise/lower
17:09<LeviathNL>I'm afraid basecosts are not easily added because it seems they are stored in the savegame.
17:09<Gonozal_VIII>of course you could use cheaper foundations but the ones ingame look very solid and expensive
17:09<Ammler>terraforming should cost like basecost*10^[how many tiles do you like rise/lower]
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>then you would have to raise every corner one by one
17:11<Ammler>LeviathNL: if you like to change a running game, you need to rename it to scn and edit it there
17:12<Ammler>(save the difficult settings)
17:12<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: thats why foundations should be cheaper
17:12<LeviathNL>I meant there is a chance no free bytes are available
17:12<LeviathNL>in the savegame format
17:13<Ammler>oh, possible, thos base costs seems to be there since TTO
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17:35<DaleStan>Ammler: No additional base costs have been discussed. Adding new factors has been done (see industry prop 23), but new costs has not.
17:37<Ammler>DaleStan: so would it make sence to add a additional factor for foundations?
17:38<LeviathNL>what is the functional difference between new factors and base costs?
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17:38<Ammler>LeviathNL: those values in the grf are factors
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17:40<Ammler>NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8) <-- basecosts.grf does change n
17:40<Ammler>(theoretically, you could also make everything cheaper
17:41<DaleStan>The base costs are modified for inflation. The factors are not. Hence why the base costs are only modified, never set.
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17:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11430 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11421) [FS#1421]: there was still one case that would cause a crash...
17:45<LeviathNL>Ammler, why the 2^-8? NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost *2^n * 2^-8
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>LeviathNL: to be able to make things cheaper
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>without the need of signed values
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17:48<Ammler>DaleStan: so its possible to add foundations as own factor? whats needed for?
17:49<LeviathNL>do you mean without using floats :s ? you don't need signed values but a value <1 or am I wrong?
17:51<Ammler>if you like a factor 1 ( just use 8), NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(8-8)
17:51<Wolf01>'night
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>LeviathNL: the 2^ is to not need floats, the -8 is to not need signed values
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17:51<Eddi|zuHause>for n=7, you have 2^(7-8) = 0.5
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. everything gets half the price
17:52<Ammler>@calc 1*2**(8-8)
17:52<@DorpsGek>Ammler: 1
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17:52<Ammler>@calc 1*2**(7-8)
17:52<@DorpsGek>Ammler: 0.5
17:52<Ammler>@calc 1*2**(9-8)
17:52<@DorpsGek>Ammler: 2
17:52<LeviathNL>I was not thinking about it as parameters
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>n is the value specified in the grf
17:53<Ammler>[23:40] <Ammler> NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8) <-- basecosts.grf does change n
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>grf values are generally 8 bit unsigned (hex) values, unless otherwise specified
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18:03<ln->why is "captain's log" translated as "computerlochbuch der Enterprise, kapitän Picard ..."?
18:06<Gonozal_VIII>[00:06:05] Bartleby: weil jegliche synchro scheiße ist [00:06:10] Bartleby: IMMER und ÜBERALL
18:07<Gonozal_VIII>^^
18:07|-|stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-171-87-247.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: because english speakers aim for simplicity in the language, germans for complexity
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's why you often find one german sentence translated into 3 english sentences
18:14<Sacro>we liike to keep it simple
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>raumübergreifendes Großgrün = tree :-)
18:15<ln->ok
18:20<Gonozal_VIII>or that: Falle Schnapp für Maustier, grau = mousetrap
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>"Falle, schnapp, für Kleintier, grau"
18:21<Gonozal_VIII>ok...
18:21<Gonozal_VIII>sorry
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>but this is kind of an extreme case :p
18:24|-|lolman changed nick to John
18:24<ln->sounds like military way of expressing it
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>it is
18:24<ln->"shirt, T, green"
18:26|-|John changed nick to lolman
18:26<ln->why is there no EU directive yet that requires dubbing all programs?
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18:33<Eddi|zuHause>why would there be?
18:34<ln->it wouldn't be the first nor most useless directive.
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18:41<ln->Eddi|zuHause: btw, what kind of personal guns did you have in the military?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>err... i'm not sure if that is even allowed to be said
18:41<ln->wtf
18:42<ln->over here it is completely public information that virtually everyone carries a weapon like this: http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/index.dsp?level=63&equipment=37
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18:51<ln->Eddi|zuHause: but you did have weapons? or is even that a secret?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>:p
18:52<fjb>ln-: The standard weapon of the german army is the Heckler & Koch G3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G3
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>actually it is being replaced by the G36
18:53<fjb>I'm not upto date. :-)
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>"The G36 has replaced the G3 as the main infantry weapon of the Bundeswehr since 1997, a process that is now considered complete"
18:57<ln->how can it be on wikipedia if it is a secret?
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause>who said that _i_ had such a weapon?
19:02<ln->nobody
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19:06<ln->"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Eddi's personal weapon in the military in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings."
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 14 00:00:32 2007