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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-17

---Logopened Sat Nov 17 00:00:17 2007
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02:22<Rotonen>hello, i come here as a server administrator of a multiplayer server, concerned about the treatment of players on the end of the game
02:22<Rotonen>any improvement planned for this, or should i participate in a development discussion regarding it?
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05:49<dihedral>what is that kid talking about?
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07:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11449 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp table/roadveh.h):
07:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1160]: trams could deadlock themselves. As of now trams will turn as
07:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: roadvehicles do when the player cannot build a tram track piece on the next tile
07:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: without destroying anything. It will not turn when the player can build the
07:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: before mentioned track piece on the 'next' tile.
07:43<Wolf01>good patch Rubidium ;)
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07:52<Eddi|zuHause2>does that mean i can now place a tram stop at a dead end road?
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08:23<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: did you post the autoroad bug?
08:23<Gonozal_VIII>it's already fixed :-)
08:23<Ammler>oh, nice, hmm, fast
08:24<Gonozal_VIII>both sprites had offset +81 or something like that
08:24<+glx>was +82
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08:36<Wolf01>which version of new water is now compatible with ottd? 0.4 or can i use 0.6
08:44<Gonozal_VIII>you'll need that to make it look good i think
08:45<Wolf01>so i'll need to patch it
08:45<Wolf01>ok, i'll continue with 0.4b until it comes to trunk
08:46<Gonozal_VIII>0.6 works, but some corner tiles don't look good
08:48<Wolf01>doh... the cd i purchased has dos graphics
08:49<Gonozal_VIII>not both?
08:49<Wolf01>i don't know
08:49<Wolf01>i copied the grf directly
08:50<Wolf01>is impossible to install the game because my video card doesn't support a 640x480 resolution with 16 colors
08:51<Wolf01>i tried to use the 320x240 with 256 colors but it isn't supported too :P
08:51<Wolf01>what's wrong with a windows installer?
08:52<Gonozal_VIII>my cd worked with xp
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>but it was a later copy from some computer magazine
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>i think...
08:53<Wolf01>"windows 95/98/ME compatible" but the installer only runs in dos mode :/
08:54<+glx>win9x is based on dos
08:54<Gonozal_VIII>xp is not
08:54<Wolf01>yes but the version i downloaded have the windows installer
08:55<Sacro>Wolf01: DosBox?
08:55<Wolf01>and i was able to install it easily under xp
08:55<Gonozal_VIII>but you got dos grf?
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08:55<Wolf01>no, that come with win grf
08:56<Wolf01>my cd "windows version" come with dos grf
08:56<Gonozal_VIII>that's odd, it should have both
08:56<+glx>then it's a dos version cd
08:56<Wolf01>maybe they are renamed, i should look better
08:57<Wolf01>i have some hours to wait, until the game generates a 2048^2 map with ecs industries set to normal :P
08:58<Gonozal_VIII>with latest nightly? map generation was very slow when newindustry support was new but some revisions later it got much faster
08:59<Gonozal_VIII>but i don't play 2048^2 with ecs... that's just too much
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09:00<Gonozal_VIII>not for the pc... for me
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09:06<Wolf01>ok, it is definitely the dos version..
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09:33<Gonozal_VIII>i guess the engines passed the test then
09:37<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
09:37<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Bjarni> everything that moves are vehicles
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09:43<sebast>hi leute
09:43<@Bjarni>Sacro: I'm right here :P
09:43<Gonozal_VIII>solltest hier aber besser englisch schreiben
09:43<Gonozal_VIII>du ;-)
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09:44<Gonozal_VIII>ja du
09:45<Gonozal_VIII>weil die meisten heir kein deutsch verstehn
09:46<sebast>WIE MACHST DU DIE SMEILIS???????
09:46<Eddi|zuHause2>these are the kind of times where you wish to have op...
09:46<Eddi|zuHause2>a *plonk* should do for now...
09:46<+glx>ok next non english sentence will result in a kick
09:47|-|mode/#openttd [+o MiHaMiX] by ChanServ
09:47|-|mode/#openttd [+b *!*] by MiHaMiX
09:47|-|sebast kicked [#openttd] MiHaMiX [IQ underflow, killing interrupt handler]
09:47<Gonozal_VIII>iq underflow *rofl*
09:50<@Bjarni>he even lacked adding a ?
09:51<valhallasw>muss ich englisch schreiben? <-- question mark!
09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>a '?'
09:51<Gonozal_VIII>ah... not the char 'a'
09:52<valhallasw>almost as hard to find as caps lock
09:52<Eddi|zuHause2>no, the char '?'
09:52<@Bjarni>I meant the char "?"
09:52<@Bjarni>the question mark
09:52<valhallasw>but hey, at least he got the 'CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL' part ;)
09:53<@MiHaMiX>Gonozal_VIII: ich habe sebast verstanden, aber man hier muss englisch schreiben :-)
09:53<Gonozal_VIII>i know, that's what i was trying to tell him
09:54<@MiHaMiX>Gonozal_VIII: ok, you were right :)
09:56<Gonozal_VIII>i think that was a kid, elementary school age
09:56<@MiHaMiX>Gonozal_VIII: yes, seems to be
09:57<valhallasw>what are elementary school aged kids doing on irc
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09:59<Gonozal_VIII>writing with capslock on and lots of '?'
10:00<Ammler>Wolf01: if you still need original graphics:
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10:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11450 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#1432](r8886): cargo translation table was loaded too early
10:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11451 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1287]: very fast aircraft would sometimes abruptly stop at the begin of the landing runway, turn a few times and then drive slowly to the end of the runway.
10:06<Prof_Frink>Oh, cock
10:06<Prof_Frink>-!- sebastianhdreju [] has joined #tycoon
10:07<Rubidium>#tycoon must be so happy with his arrival ;)
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10:08<Prof_Frink>Aaaand he's back
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>are we really interested?
10:08<fjb>I start to hate ECS. About 5 years after the start of the game every industry has a very low production level. About 7 years after the start of the game I have enough mony to start to connect the industries to form a network. But then the industries start to close down one after another just before my first vehicles reach them. Some even after they got their first deliveries. :-(
10:10<Progman>fjb: its getting worst: industries get closed even if you delivered 'some' cargo due "low production level". Have to rebuild the printing-works every time
10:11<Gonozal_VIII>i switched back to using very small maps again with ecs
10:11<Gonozal_VIII>256^2 or at most 512^2
10:11<fjb>It's amost only one left of the second level industries. But the map is too big to connect them in 1930.
10:12<fjb>My map is 512²
10:13<fjb>ECS could be much fun, a chance to build real networks, but now it becomes almost a passengers only game...
10:13<Gonozal_VIII>you can make easy money with some passenger stations placed without much planning... even with expensive dbset trains that leads to profit fast
10:14<Gonozal_VIII>then you can use that profit to keep your industries alive
10:14<Gonozal_VIII>--> more profit
10:15<fjb>They are closing down about 7 to 12 years into the game. Even with the money cheet I have hardly enough time to build a network to connect most of them.
10:16<Gonozal_VIII>the last industry of each type is protected so there is always something to connect and get started
10:16<Wolf01>thank you ammler, but i copied the data folder from my other pc :P
10:16<Progman>or use the anti-close patch
10:17<fjb>Yes, one of each kind over the whole map... The freight trains are still slow at that time.
10:17<fjb>No closing at all isn't what I want. But they close way too fast.
10:18<fjb>What condition are needed for new industries to appear in the game?
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>the vectors are still in alpha/beta state... you could suggest to add some parameters for closing time multiplier or something like that
10:19<fjb>Random is at least a chance they appear without funding every bit.
10:20<fjb>I should really suggest that to George.
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10:20<Wolf01>i agree fjb, ecs is a good set, but it needs to be played in a different way... there are few primary industries than secondary industries, all industries require something to produce, when you connect all the industries to produce fertilizer if you want to start a food chain, you'll find that the selected food processing plant closed 10 years in the past
10:21<Gonozal_VIII>yes, it's much harder to get a good network running but that's part of the reasons why i like ecs
10:23<fjb>It happened 7 times in this game that I had build a connection between two industries, build the stations, bought the vehicles, had the vehicles loading, and then one of the industries closed down. :-(
10:24<Wolf01>is really difficult to start, but when you succeed to start the chain, it is like a nuclear reaction.. is unstoppable and generates money, until you destroy the vehicles or the industries close
10:24<Gonozal_VIII>you could try using the build while paused cheat if it gets too annoying
10:25<fjb>I hate chaeting. And some industries close when they get delivered, but it is simply not enough. And some of the agrar first level industries are at a really low production level.
10:26<Wolf01>build while paused give you the time to plan a station layout or a giant junction, but is not so good if you need to know how many trains to use to servicing one industry, because you can't know the production level which is really variable with ECS
10:29<Gonozal_VIII>just start with one or two trains and clone more when you see that more are needed :-)
10:29<Gonozal_VIII>i sometimes keep the station list open to see where things pile up
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10:29<Progman>money isn't really a problem with the incredible production of sand pits
10:29<Progman>about 1000t/month, each pit...
10:30<Gonozal_VIII>yes but that's a bug
10:30<Progman>it is?
10:31<Wolf01>and that is another thing which i don't understand, after 50 years of play, i find that my game has only sand pits and vehicle factories... no other industries.. and is impossible to fund raw industries
10:32<Gonozal_VIII>that's a patch setting
10:33<Gonozal_VIII>just change that to "as other industries"
10:33<Wolf01>no, most ecs industries aren't allowed to be funded during game
10:33<Wolf01>like forests
10:33<Gonozal_VIII>that's new to me
10:34<Wolf01>mmh seem that something is changed
10:35<Wolf01>now only the forest is greyed, but is allowed to be planted in spring
10:35<Gonozal_VIII>you have to wait until may
10:35<Wolf01>last week i was not able to fund raw industries
10:35<Wolf01>and i didn't change anything
10:37<Gonozal_VIII>are you sure you didn't change the manual primary industry construction method?
10:37<Wolf01>yes is always set "as other idustries"
10:37<Wolf01>since prospecting was added
10:38<Gonozal_VIII>then i don't know... it worked last week and it works now
10:38<Wolf01>as i don't like this way of prospecting
10:39<Gonozal_VIII>yes, prospecting can get very expensive when you have to fund x times until it works...
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10:41<Wolf01>i would have liked more a thing like "you prospect a tile and with a x% chance you can build there the industry, and every time you prospect you pay industry_value/10 money"
10:42<Gonozal_VIII>so you select where to prospect?
10:43<Wolf01>yes, like in real life... in real life i don't prospect the world to fund an industry
10:45<Wolf01>i look for a suitable area, like a valley with 2 coal mines: i build a station, with the time i enlarge it, and i prospect near a coal mine to extend it's production
10:45<Gonozal_VIII>would be better to select an area then and pay x money per tile where each tile increases the possibility of success
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11:15<fjb>How is prospecting working now? I didn't try it yet.
11:15<Wolf01>it places an industry in a random place in the map
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11:16<fjb>Ah, thank you.
11:17<Gonozal_VIII>it tries to... if it doesn't work you will have spent your money for nothing
11:19<fjb>It first chooses the place an then tests the conditions if the industry is allowed there?
11:19<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know but something like that i guess
11:20<Wolf01>omg, what's that building? "museum of the modern arts"... how is that possible? why it doesn't collapse? XD
11:20<fjb>Wolf01: Where?
11:22<Wolf01>is the same building which zimmlock has as avatar, but i think that was only a joke
11:23<Gonozal_VIII>ah that one
11:23<Gonozal_VIII>looks like some kind of optical illusion
11:23<Wolf01>is the first time i see it on my games
11:23<fjb>Oh, didn't know it is in the game. Looks like Escher constructed it.
11:24<Gonozal_VIII>ah escher... that's the name i was looking for
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12:39<redmonkey>do you have any effect on the production rate of the industries?
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12:41<Gonozal_VIII>with ecs you have for sure, standard industries depends on version
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12:42<redmonkey>what's ecs? and i got version numer 0.5.3 (latest stable afaik)
12:44<Gonozal_VIII>ecs is extended cargo scheme, it has more and different industries
12:44<Gonozal_VIII>and i think you don't influence the production rate in 0.5.3
12:44<Gonozal_VIII>but i'm not sure
12:45<redmonkey>how do i activate ecs? and in which version is it available? it sounds interesting :)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>you need the nightly version
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12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>and the ecs grfs
12:46<Ammler>redmonkey: ant try only one by one...
12:47<redmonkey>cool. i'll try it! thanks!
12:47<Gonozal_VIII>add them sorted by their id, then all should work
12:47<Ammler>specially as George said, the alpha's are very buggy
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>what i hate the most about these grfs is the lack of style
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it's just a random conglomerate of pictures
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>without consistency or even scale
12:52<Gonozal_VIII>scale will never be right for everything
12:52<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, but you can do it for _some_ things
12:54<Gonozal_VIII>ok, the large construction industry... single building the size of a whole town... that's way off... but the rest is acceptable imho
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause2>have you seen the size of the windows in the brewery?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause2>(just an instance out of the top of my head)
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>seem to be about the size of the town building's windows
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14:05<Sacro> HAHAHAHAHA XD
14:05<Sacro>"I show quality of work of the graphic engine on a platform
14:05<Sacro>Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe - OpenTTD 32bpp. "
14:06<Sacro>i miss him...
14:07<LeviathNL>what does he mean with 3 - Automatic creation automobile and railways depending on a landscape. :s
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>different vehicles in different climates?
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>but that's not new...
14:11<Sacro>he is distributing Michael Blunck's stuff illegaly
14:11<Sacro>lets see what else this grf set has
14:12<Sacro>Georges LV, DBSet{,xl}, JC Industries newbridges, newships, newstats, newwater, tempset, ttrs{,2,3}
14:14<Sacro>i think the ESoftInteractive ports have died :(
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16:53<Gonozal_VIII>something between yesterday's and today's nightly broke most of the ecs industries
16:56<Gonozal_VIII>they don't accept or produce anything
16:58<+glx>in new game?
17:02<+glx>I see, and I don't like that
17:04<fjb>r11444 still works fine.
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>yes, that's yesterdays nightly
17:05<+glx>probably 11450 but I fail to see how it broke things
17:06<+glx>I think I know
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>that's good
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17:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11452 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp settings.cpp settings.h settings_gui.cpp): -Change: do not allow configuration changes, that NewGRFs can directly use to change their behaviour, during network games as this can cause desyncs.
17:29<Sacro>Rubidium: how about, a little less use, of excessive, commas
17:30<Rubidium>Sacro: how about not writing *very* offensive sentences in a language you do not even know?
17:30<Sacro>Rubidium: i didn't write it
17:30<Sacro>i just copy pasted it
17:30<Rubidium>even worse
17:31<Sacro>i won't be doing it again
17:31<Sacro>and if you want me to leave, then i'll go
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17:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11453 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11450): unrevert r11239, as we now need it
17:34<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: should be ok now
17:34<Gonozal_VIII>great, thanks :-)
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18:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11454 /trunk/src/ (macros.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix: the CHANCE16 functions were biased; a 32768 in 65536 chance was really a 32769 in 65536 chance.
18:18<fjb>Do farms mind when I build things on their fields?
18:18<@Bjarni>or rather: not yet
18:19<@Bjarni>it appears that the mood in this channel is that they should be affected so eventually something might happen
18:19<fjb>Is that a planed feature?
18:19<@Bjarni>not really
18:19<Rubidium>actually they do. You have to pay the farm to get the tile ;)
18:19<fjb>I pay for everything. :-)
18:19<@Bjarni>but then again autoreplace wasn't a planned feature... I just got bored replacing locomotives and coded it
18:19<Rubidium>bulldozing a farm tile is way more expensive than a normal tile
18:20<Rubidium>normal clear tile that is
18:20<@Bjarni>yeah fields are way more expensive than any other tile
18:20<fjb>I don't mind to pay the farmer for his land. But I want him to produce the same amount.
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18:21<fjb>I started my railway a bit late in this game, and I'm having some mountains. So it is a bit difficult to find a route.
18:23<fjb>Bjarni: Your autoreplace is a great feature.
18:23<Gonozal_VIII>yes, autoreplace rocks :-)
18:26<fjb>Bjarni: Could you get bored again and add an option to only autoreplace vehicles that are aging?
18:26<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm would it be easy to add a clone button to the list of vehicles with shared orders, maybe one that only works if the vehicles have a depot in their orders?^^
18:27<@Bjarni><fjb> Bjarni: Could you get bored again and add an option to only autoreplace vehicles that are aging? <-- planned feature
18:27<@Bjarni>I like how everybody went offline during Christmas and when they returned I had made autoreplace... I started when they left
18:28<@Bjarni>but that was random timing and not planned
18:28<@Bjarni>they were in for a surprise when they returned :D
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18:29<fjb>A christmas gift. :-)
18:30<@Bjarni>actually I decided to try multiplayer so I joined a random game and took over a big and old company that was left by some other player. I spent 40 minutes replacing locomotives and thought "my time is more important than this", disconnected and started planning how autoreplace should work and how to code it
18:31<@Bjarni>this was the 23rd of December. I had it working (without GUI) before the end of the year
18:31<Rubidium>(read: he had a prototype working)
18:32<@Bjarni>it was good at crashing laggy players and cause desyncs
18:32<Gonozal_VIII>everything has to be good at something :-)
18:32<@Bjarni>then it took a year and a few rewrites to get it working without crashes or desyncs
18:33<@Bjarni>seriously... I fixed the last desync bug on the 23rd of December the following year
18:33<Rubidium>wonder what he's going to code on 23rd of December this year ;)
18:33<Rubidium>I think I already know what ;)
18:34<@Bjarni>actually I might now be at home on the 23rd... there is a train scheduled for that day
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18:35<@Bjarni>and I don't code while driving
18:35<+michi_cc>incoming patch: I updated the revision detection for msvc to work with git as well, like the makefile
18:36<+michi_cc>any comments?
18:36<@Bjarni>can you make it work with Hg as well?
18:37<@Bjarni>maybe it's not really needed right now but it would be nice to know if it's possible
18:37<+michi_cc>it does already
18:37<@Bjarni>I don't have msvc so I wouldn't notice
18:38<Rubidium>michi_cc: you've got git working properly on windows?
18:39<+michi_cc>with cygwin
18:39<Rubidium>and get it working properly with MSVC too?
18:39<Rubidium>unix newlines and the lot
18:39<+michi_cc>msvc works completely alright with unix newlines
18:40<+michi_cc>at least any version better than 6.0
18:42<+michi_cc>of course, a complete cygwin install might be a bit too heavy for some people, but as far as I know, progress is being made on a native windows version
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18:52<fjb>Hm, the newbridges grf is really not made for diagonal things under the bridges...
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18:52<Ammler>fjb: still awake
18:53<Ammler>hmm, you should use thgergos cantilever replacement
18:54<fjb>Ammler: I never sleep. ;-)
18:55<fjb>Maybe I should use that.
18:55<fjb>I would make sóme bridges if I could draw better.
18:56<Ammler>hmm, I would ... if I could...
18:57<fjb>At the moment I'm fighting with nfo...
18:59<Rubidium>you shouldn't fight nfo, you should embrace it!
19:00<fjb>nfo has some really unpleasant features...
19:02<Gonozal_VIII>you could just draw nice sprites and ask somebody else to do the coding part :-)
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>" if I could draw better." <-- sorry, didn't see that^^
19:03<fjb>I'm not good at drawing yet. And I'm thinking that writing hex codes is really archaic.
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>does it work to take a rl picture, scale it down to sprite size and colors, manually fix some off pixel and you're done?
19:06<fjb>No, it really isn't that easy if it should be looking nice.
19:07<Rubidium>fjb: then what format do you suggest and why?
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19:10<fjb>Rubidium: the nfo interpretor looks like a strange kind of virtual machine. So it is ok to feed it with machine code. But nobody today would write anything serious using machine code. They use assembler as the lowest level.
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19:12<fjb>At first sight it should be easy to implement a kind of assembler for nfo. But nfo has some unpleasant features like the self modifying code of action 6.
19:12<+glx>that's a powerfull feature
19:14<fjb>nfo has variables (kind of the registers of the virtual machine). Why must it modify the next opcode istaed of storing the value in one of that variables?
19:17<Rubidium>because a lot of stuff doesn't work with variables
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19:18<Gonozal_VIII>it modifies itself? but what if it gains intelligence, starts to control our pcs and then wants to rule the world? :O
19:19<fjb>Self modifying code is nothing new. It was a bad habit in ancient times of programming. It is really hard to debug.
19:19<Eddi|zuHause2>then a cyborg from the future comes and tries to save it
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>and anonther one who tries to stop the saving
19:20<Gonozal_VIII>turing machines didn't take over the world.. but newgrfs will!
19:20<Rubidium>fjb: I would rather have selfmodifying code than the same large set of sprites multiple times
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19:22<fjb>Why should self modifying code be the only solution to prevent multiple identical sprites?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you could do pointher arithmetics instead... but that is not much better...
19:23<Rubidium>fjb: maybe it isn't when you design a language, but now it has it, it is useful for primarily backward compatability cases
19:23<fjb>Pointer arithmetics is a lot better at the machine code or assembler level.
19:25<fjb>Rubidium: But it prevents (or at least makes really hard) the forward step to an assembler or even a higher level language.
19:26<Rubidium>but then one could also write the assembler in such a way that you only give it the 'new' way of doing it and it automatically adds all crap needed for backwards compatability.
19:26<fjb>And at least assembler is needed badly. There are many skilled people out there who could do nfo programming then.
19:27<fjb>No xml for programming, please.
19:28<Rubidium>hmm... a self-modifying xml programming language
19:28<fjb>i368 opcodes and even assembler is ugly, but nfo is far more ugly. Nobody cares when there is a higher level language.
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i still have no idea what xml is useful for
19:29<fjb>Xml ist usefull for markups. :-)
19:29<@Belugas>xml is good for exchanging informations between two programs too
19:29<Sacro>and irc </Sacro>
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19:30<fjb>Sacro: that is a kind of markup...
19:30|-|mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
19:30<@Belugas>xml starts to get used oftenly in the payment processing "industry"
19:30|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] Rubidium [enforcing the closing tag ;)]
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19:30<@Rubidium>@deop Rubidium
19:30[~]Sacro hides
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19:31<Rubidium>something with missing opening tag...
19:32<fjb>Not only the opening tag...
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19:58<fjb>I love the automatic foundations. Were they in TTD?
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>very new stuff
20:00<fjb>Does the patch have them?
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20:00<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know as i don't play patch but i guess yes
20:01<fjb>I also never played the patch. Maybe it would work with my new wine installation.
20:02<fjb>Foundations are great to "lift" the railway a level:
20:02<Sacro>wow that looks pretty
20:03<Sacro>just needs pbs
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20:03<fjb>Thank you. PBS would be better, but at least it works without them.
20:04<Gonozal_VIII>pbs wouldn't help that much there, every second train could leave while the next one enters but that's it
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20:06<fjb>But the trains tend to choose neighbouring platforms...
20:07<fjb>I designed that station entry/exit to be small and halfway efficient.
20:07<Gonozal_VIII>the way they choose their path was quite annoying when i used pbs in miniin
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>they often blockt much more then they needed to
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>routemarkers could help with that i guess
20:09<fjb>Hm, I don't like the current route markers that much.
20:10<fjb>They should be more like the restricting signals of TTDP. But please don't make them signals.
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>in combination with pbs it could let the trains prefer the path that blocks the least other paths for example
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>how do restricting signals work?
20:12<fjb>They are signals which can react on several parameters of the train, it's lenght, weight, freigt and so on.
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>so basically it's the same as routemarkers but you don't have to assign colors to the trains?
20:15<fjb>Kind of. They don't just give a negative penalty to the path finder, they block the train. Ok, that is a kind of final restriction to the pathfinder. :-)
20:16<fjb>But they can differentiate much more than a few colours could.
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>no i don't like the blocking part.. you can get that with waypoints too
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>i like it better to give them a path they prefer but with the option to take another one
20:17<fjb>I would like some thing like the route markers, with the flexibility of the restricting signals and with a better marker than a big mushroom. :-)
20:18<fjb>Maybe it could also be implemented for road vehicles.
20:20<Gonozal_VIII>for road vehicles a more important thing would be to give them a better way of selecting an empty bay at a multi bay station
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>they only use one side of the drive through and sometimes they don't even split up but line up at a single bay instead
20:23<fjb>Sometimes they are using both sides, depending how they can reach the bay from the other side.
20:23<Gonozal_VIII>i only got them to use the other side temporarly through switching between pathfinders because one preferred left and the other right
20:25<fjb>That is funny.
20:28<fjb>Here is a picture were they are using both sides:
20:29<fjb>When you are looking at "Steinfurt an der Spree Mine" you can see two truck wayting facing one direction and behind the factory is one truck leaving facing the other direction.
20:30<Gonozal_VIII>and they do that on a regular basis?
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20:30<fjb>Yes, they do.
20:31<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm maybe something got changed since i last tested it
20:31<fjb>Most of the time they do.
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20:31<fjb>Sometimes they don't do it, but most of the time they do.
20:37<fjb>I killd a whole wood and the town still loves me. :-)
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20:42<Gonozal_VIII>nope... they don't take the other side
20:43<fjb>Hm, strange, do you have a picture of it?
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>no i already reverted most of the changes to the station layout
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>but i try to dublicate your layout
20:47<fjb>The path to the other entry of the truck stop must not be too long.
20:47<Gonozal_VIII>i made them same length
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20:50<fjb>Maybe they won't go to both sides when they go to that truck stop for the first time.
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>wow they use both sides
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>your layout seems to be good..
20:54<Gonozal_VIII>but i hope it doesn't only work for a potash mine with a road around it that gets served by ford ts
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20:57<Gonozal_VIII>hehe the other player is asking why i build such useless lines
20:58<fjb>No, it works for every thing.
20:58<fjb>I tend to bouild circles around all kind of mines and factories.
20:58<fjb>You can do kind of load balancing that way.
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>so they don't use both if the paths are same length but they do with one path being longer?
20:59<fjb>And you can easily build stations on both sides, one to deliver things there and one to fetch the products there.
21:00<fjb>They even do with one path a bit longer, but not that much longer.
21:00<fjb>Just try it and you get a feeling when it works and when not.
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21:04<Gonozal_VIII>the 4 tile square seems to be good for that
21:07<fjb>I had it working with lager structures.
21:08<Gonozal_VIII>i always tried to keep it symmetrical but then they don't choose
21:12<fjb>Hm, I don't know then.
21:12<fjb>Or don'T build the path around the factory, build a circle beside it.
21:13<Gonozal_VIII>already tried that, it doesn't matter where the circle is, they take both ways
21:14<Gonozal_VIII>nice to know that :-)
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21:15<fjb>I like to experiment, so I found that.
21:15[~]Sacro sniggers
21:17<fjb>I guess I would not be good at at coop game because of my sometimes starnge layouts.
21:17<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Did you tell the other player why you are building strange circles? :-)
21:18<Gonozal_VIII>yes i did
21:18<Gonozal_VIII>but he was quite busy building a limestone line so he didn't say much
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21:28<Eddi|zuHause3>what exactly is a limestone?
21:28<Gonozal_VIII>that's the stuff a lime quarry produces :-)
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21:29<Gonozal_VIII>Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed largely of the mineral calcite (calcium carbonate: CaCO3).
21:30<fjb>It's kalkstein.
21:30<Gonozal_VIII>makes sense to carry it to cement works then :-)
21:31<fjb>I have build another "elevated"" station. Had a hard time with the tunnel under the station and the factory next to it:
21:32<Eddi|zuHause3>but that picture shows really well how out of scale the industries are
21:32<Eddi|zuHause3>compare the size and distance of the windows of the brewery with the one of the mine
21:33<Gonozal_VIII>what brewery?
21:33<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's a glass work
21:33<Gonozal_VIII>there's no glass works either
21:33<fjb>It's a plain factory. You mean the thing next to the station.
21:34<Eddi|zuHause3>in the previous picture
21:34<fjb>Ah, there, yes.
21:35<Gonozal_VIII>the vectors are not finished so i guess that will change... the vehicle factory already did change a lot
21:35<fjb>But it's getting better. I guess he didn't care that much when making the graphics. Some others already got replaces in the latest versions.
21:35<fjb>The new vehicle factory is great.
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21:36<fjb>Too late. :-)
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>i was experimenting with what you call "elevated tracks" too some time ago to make a double mainline where a branch can enter both lines easily but it didn't work too well back then without diagonal rail under bridges
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i occasionally miss diagonal bridges and tunnels...
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>and i really need PBS
21:40<Gonozal_VIII>need? it can enhance performance but where do you really need it?
21:40<Eddi|zuHause3>i have lots of occasions where the current signalling is way too limited
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i recently thought about this, and about half my issues could be solved with a second layer of presignals
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>and half of the rest by signals on tile edges
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>so both together would make 75%
21:42<Gonozal_VIII>do you have screenshots of such a situation?
21:43<fjb>I'm missing diagonal bridges and tunnel, too. I heard somebody is working on it.
21:44<Eddi|zuHause3>take this station for example:,%24.%20Dez%201939.png
21:44<fjb>You wouldn't need signals on tile edges if we had signals that were realistic.
21:45<Gonozal_VIII>not found
21:45<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: yeah, but they are easier to implement
21:45<fjb>The requested URL /~krause/Ravenswald Transport,$. Dez 1939.png was not found on this server.
21:45<Eddi|zuHause3>missing 0
21:45<Eddi|zuHause3>take this station for example:,%204.%20Dez%201939.png
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21:46<Eddi|zuHause3>actually it's,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png
21:46<Eddi|zuHause3>but it should redirect
21:46<gono_ping_timeout>got disconnected...
21:47<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, the problem is the station on the left
21:47<Eddi|zuHause3>it needs entrence signals from the south
21:47<Eddi|zuHause3>and i need independent combosignals for the single track section to the east
21:48<gono_ping_timeout>that's some really weird track layout you've got there
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21:48<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not that weird
21:48<fjb>But it is always difficult to make a good layout in the mountains.
21:49<Eddi|zuHause3>passenger trains come from the south and east to the left station
21:49<Eddi|zuHause3>long freight trains come from the south to the long platforms
21:49<Eddi|zuHause3>and short freight trains come from the north and east to the short platforms
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21:50<Eddi|zuHause3>all tracks are one way dual track, except for the connection from the left station to the east route
21:50<Eddi|zuHause3>which is two-way single track
21:51<fjb>Hm, difficult.
21:52<gono_ping_timeout>why don't you use a bridge there instead of crossing the freight lines?
21:52<Eddi|zuHause3>bridges are bad, mkay?
21:52<gono_ping_timeout>bridges are bad?^^
21:53<Eddi|zuHause3>well, let's say "unrealistic"
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21:54<gono_ping_timeout>it would save you much trouble there
21:56<Eddi|zuHause3>the point about flat junctions is that there are flat
21:56<Eddi|zuHause3>like this:,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png
21:56<Eddi|zuHause3>not a single bridge in there
21:57<Eddi|zuHause3>or this one, slightly extended:,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
21:58<Eddi|zuHause3>signals on tile edges could make this slightly less bloated
22:00<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: You need kind of realistic signals, not some strange signals at the edges of the tiles.
22:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i kinda cheated here:,%2020.%20Okt%201947.png
22:00<fjb>Who has seen signals at the entry of a platform in reality?
22:00<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: yes, i know what i need
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22:01<gono_ping_timeout>there are tunnels :-)
22:03<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, that's what i meant about "cheating" ;)
22:04<Eddi|zuHause3>but i just couldn't handle the space i needed for proper signalling there
22:04<Eddi|zuHause3>this all would be a non-issue with proper PBS
22:05<gono_ping_timeout>wouldn't help with trains crossing 90°
22:06<Eddi|zuHause3>trains crossing are not the problem
22:06<Eddi|zuHause3>trains passing each other in different directions are the issue with the current signalling
22:07<Eddi|zuHause3>in 90% of the cases, trains that would cross would also want to use the same exit line
22:09<Eddi|zuHause3>i had another issue where i needed better presignals, but i don't have a screenshot...
22:12<gono_ping_timeout>i don't have screenshots of my networks here but i try to keep them as simple as possible
22:12<fjb>The actual signal design is kind of broken. But who does a better one?
22:13<gono_ping_timeout>the trains should always look ahead
22:13<gono_ping_timeout>as much as they would need for a full stop
22:14<gono_ping_timeout>and if there is a red signal or another train they will slow down until they stand still or the signal is green again
22:15<Eddi|zuHause3>that's a whole differnt kind of signalling issue
22:15<gono_ping_timeout>i know...
22:16<Eddi|zuHause3>it has nothing to do with making trains stop outside of a junction, and never in the middle of it
22:16<gono_ping_timeout>but trains should never just stop from one pixel to the nex
22:17<Eddi|zuHause3>that should be quite easy to do even
22:17<gono_ping_timeout>then you would have to use presignals as priority lines in front of every junction or your trains would crash
22:18<Eddi|zuHause3>the only real problem there is that you need a transition from default-green (current) signals to default-red signals
22:18<gono_ping_timeout>yes default red would be more realistic
22:19<Eddi|zuHause3>so upon reaching a presignal, you check if you can force the next signal to green, if that replies "no, train in the way", then you initiate stopping
22:21<gono_ping_timeout>you would have to put more thought into signalling if your trains could crash when you don't place them correct
22:22<Eddi|zuHause3>well, this should of course be a difficulty option
22:22<gono_ping_timeout>everything in openttd is optional anyways so that goes without saying
22:23<Eddi|zuHause3>the main problem here is this check of "train in the way" needs not only check the next signal block, but also all other entrance blocks to that block, if some train has previously forced his signal to green
22:24<gono_ping_timeout>i think that can be handled by the signals and the train only has to work with his signal
22:25<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but currently there is no such "signal handler"
22:26<Eddi|zuHause3>btw, i don't think trains should crash if the presignals are too close, but instead the max speed of the track should be limited
22:26<gono_ping_timeout>you could even remove all pathfinding from the trains and program the junctions to direct certain groups of trains to certain exits
22:26<Eddi|zuHause3>you are jumping topics here...
22:26<gono_ping_timeout>sorry.. i tend to do that
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22:27<Eddi|zuHause3>and i go to bed
22:27<gono_ping_timeout>good idea
22:27<gono_ping_timeout>the other player (and host) of the game i was playing also went to bed some minutes ago
22:28<gono_ping_timeout>good night then
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22:59<fjb>Good night
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 18 00:00:54 2007