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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-18

---Logopened Sun Nov 18 00:00:54 2007
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03:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11455 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make autoroad, 'normal' road building and 'normal' rail building all react the same on CTRL as autorail.
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05:19<hylje> choo choo!
05:19<hylje>notice the scale
05:27<BigBB>That's transartica, right?
05:28<hylje>i dunno, i found it in an imageboard
05:29<BigBB>yes it is:
05:29<BigBB>a nice game
05:34<BigBB>a few ingame pics: you can make train-battles :)
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06:16<Ammler>BigBB: is this game downloadable, legal I mean?
06:16<BigBB>I think no
06:17<Ammler>whatd the goal there?
06:18<BigBB>make money with trade and/or battle (train vs train) IIRC
06:19<BigBB>funny is, you can drive faster with your train if you don't put coal in the boiler, but your money :D
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06:43<hylje>i came up with towns having a plan
06:43<hylje>which decides where roads and buildings go
06:44<hylje>players could influence that to let their stations fit in somehow..
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08:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11457 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
08:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: (r11455) Reenable the accidentaly removed one way roads option
08:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: Enable one way roads like the remove via a toolbar icon
08:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11458 /extra/ottd_grf/split/ (openttdgui.nfo openttdgui.pcx): -Change: Add the one way road icon
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09:01<skidd13>Hi folks
09:01<Wolf01>hi skidd13
09:03<LeviathNL>skidd13, it would be nice if you could use the remove button with the oneway road button
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09:11<skidd13>LeviathNL: ?
09:12<skidd13>Do you meant to remove the one way from the road?
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09:19<geoff_k_>is there a way to improve performance of the game on larger maps, its becoming almost impossible to play when there are lots of fast trains and aircraft on the map?
09:20<LeviathNL>what pathfinder are you using?
09:20<skidd13>LeviathNL: I wasn't sure if I should disable the remove. But if I'd enable it to remove I'd have 2 options: 1st addapt the command handling or 2nd do some dirty stuff with the handling of the remove button. I decided to disable it, cause it was the cleanest way.
09:20<geoff_k_>LeviathNL, not sure i don't change it
09:20<geoff_k_>not for me?
09:20<skidd13>geoff_k_: npf for ships, and yapf for everything other should be the best
09:20<LeviathNL>geoff_k_, look in the vehicles tab of the patch settings
09:21<Eddi|zuHause3>geoff_k_: make sure YAPF is on, and you don't use ships
09:21<geoff_k_>thanks, skidd13, LeviathNL and Eddi|zuHause3
09:21<Eddi|zuHause3>also, waypoints can drastically reduce the CPU usage of the pathfinder
09:21<+glx>ships should not use YAPF nor NPF
09:21<geoff_k_>i guess there is no way to change that on dedicated server once its playing?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause3>also, do not zoom out :p
09:22<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, you can change patch settings from the console
09:22<geoff_k_>ok cool thanks i'll get onto it this could be a life saver
09:22<geoff_k_>i usualy give up trying to play
09:23<LeviathNL>see other commands:
09:25<geoff_k_>LeviathNL, thanks i know it been there many times, actualy been playing it for a while this game but just thought my system wasn't good enoguh but its same on a newer system pretty much
09:27<Eddi|zuHause3>huge maps are not the greatest for internet gaming anyway
09:27<geoff_k_>i've got 2 dedicated servers running and playing using it to play the game on a 2Ghz, 64mb agp with 1gig ram would think its enough really for this game
09:27<geoff_k_>yeah they are big maps
09:28<Eddi|zuHause3>OTTD is very CPU intensive
09:28<Eddi|zuHause3>ram and graphics does not really help
09:28<geoff_k_>yeah i got loads of free ram just over half in use cpu i know goes as fast as it can
09:29<LeviathNL>ottd does not make use of multiple cores does it?
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09:29<geoff_k_>and graphicaly the game don't do much, although i notice it gets really bad ifg i have a few train windows open and aircraft
09:30<geoff_k_>other people on the maps don;t seem to have any issue
09:31<Rubidium>geoff_k_: what version of OTTD are you running?
09:32<geoff_k_>its always been same for all versions
09:32<Rubidium>have you enabled improved loading *and* gradual loading?
09:32<geoff_k_>going back to 0.4.7 or .6 when i starterd to play openttd
09:32<geoff_k_>i have improved loading on
09:32<geoff_k_>and the other
09:33<Rubidium>that's a known cause of very slow games. Disable either one of them, or use a nightly
09:33<geoff_k_>thanks will test it out
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09:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11460 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Documentation: update some documentation to better match the current state and the state in the nearby future of OpenTTD.
09:57<geoff_k_>gradual loading seems to have made a big difference thanks, all the other settings i had anyway
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10:00<geoff_k_>not sure it has though turning it back on seems to make no difference now i'll keep messing
10:00<Rubidium>it will start messing after a while when the stations start filling up with cargo *and* trains
10:02<geoff_k_>ah i see, most my problem seems to be when i got plane and train windows open once i got to fast electric trains, maybe im pushing it to the limit there of what the system can handle but other than hte 2 maps and me playing couple of irc channels not much elsse happening on the system
10:03<geoff_k_>im runing on KDE on slackware on the client side, the 2 maps are runing aside from the desktop
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10:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11461 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1449] (r11449): a bus turning around in a station could case an assertion error. Patch by divide.
10:11<geoff_k_>one other thing i've found opening my train list don't help but i can live with that for what its used 95 trains in the list all electric, usualy when deisel trains are introduced the problem starts
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11462 /tags/0.6.0-beta1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Release: 0.6.0-beta1.
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: The first major step into the road of releasing 0.6.0, which will give you loads
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: of new features, like newhouses, newindustries, signals and diagonal tracks
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: under bridges, trams, autoslope, oneway roads, half tile slopes and much more.
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: It furthermore contains quite a few performance improvements under certain
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: conditions as well as a very long list of bugreports. If you are really
10:17<Rubidium> interested, you should read the changelog.
10:17<Rubidium>We OpenTTD developers hope that you will thoroughly test it so we can quickly release the real 0.6.0.
10:17<Rubidium>Have fun!
10:17<Rubidium>(just to finish what CIA-1 started to tell you)
10:21<Eddi|zuHause3>what happened to RCx?
10:21<geoff_k_>nice i'll try that out
10:22<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: they'll come in a few weeks
10:22<Rubidium>as you might have noticed with 0.5.0-RC1-4 there were still loads of bugfixes and features being backported and such
10:22<Rubidium>which was not an effective use of time
10:22<Eddi|zuHause3>so this is not feature complete
10:23<+glx>branching is not done yet
10:23<Rubidium>that's also true
10:23<Rubidium>there still a few (small) features (/bugfixes) pending
10:24<Rubidium>and I want to get more testers somewhat earlier in the process ;)
10:24<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i can understand that
10:25<Rubidium>and not doing the branch yet makes savegame changing stuff a little easier too ;)
10:26<geoff_k_>is it ever likely anyt of the newgrfs will get into the game find it a shame no one has them or joins games that use them
10:27[~]Rubidium refrains from giving a 'stupid', yet correct answer
10:28<geoff_k_>i thik i know the answer you mean
10:28[~]Rubidium is amazed
10:28<geoff_k_>well not totaly sure maybe not
10:29<geoff_k_>from what i know its all down to people copywriting their own works which is fair enough
10:31<Eddi|zuHause3>it is copyright... like the opposite of copyleft
10:31<geoff_k_>i've looked in the past at making some myself but never got that far with understanding half of how they work
10:35<geoff_k_>3 things i'd really like to see int eh game is standalone which i belive is scheduled for 0.7.0 whenever that comes, some new vehicles and i'd be interested in the daylength patch to slow things down but preferable without it messing up the ecconomy
10:36<geoff_k_>always find the game moves too fast after you get to electric it seems to be just a constant battle to keep upgrading stuff
10:39<geoff_k_>or any easier way to upgrade track wtihout disrupting things would help but i've no idea how that can be done better
10:40<Ammler>heya, is there a download location for the beta?
10:40<Rubidium>not yet; binaries are not yet made
10:40<geoff_k_>good question im about to have a look
10:41<Rubidium>Ammler: and if you want OSX binaries you have to wait till Bjarni arrives
10:41<Rubidium>(and notices that there was a release)
10:41<Ammler>Rubidium: how to configure that it will be compatibe with the bins?
10:41<Rubidium>as you do with all and any other release?
10:42<Rubidium>just export the correct svn dir
10:42<Ammler>--revision=0.6.0-beta1 or just without?
10:42<Ammler>oh, well, thats a idea :)
10:43<Ammler>will the planespeed be fixed for 0.6?
10:43<Rubidium>'fixed' ?
10:44<Ammler>nvm, not important, just 4x faster, but same running costs
10:44<geoff_k_>would that be planespeed as in the fact planes move slower than trains? or seem ot
10:45<geoff_k_>i don't mindthe planespeed as it is i suspect by speeding it up can cause more problems with crowded airports. I also thing it wouldn't help the performance of tha game
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11:02<Ammler>hmm, Rubidium, I checked out 0.6.0
11:02<Ammler>but I have the the revision number is that meant to be?
11:03<Ammler>svn checkout -r11369 svn:// && cd 0.6.0-beta1 && ./configure && make
11:03<Ammler>oh, sorry
11:03<Ammler>oh man
11:04[~]Ammler is trying again :)
11:05<geoff_k_>i'm not sure how to grab the code for this beta release, never used use svn to download source, someone told me hg clone <and_some_path> was a way for something else oncew but never tried it and in this case i wouldn't know what path im hitting
11:05<Rubidium>hg clone will *not* work
11:05<geoff_k_>or is hg something else i know its for mercurial repos is that different to svn i;ve no idea
11:06<geoff_k_>i see suspected not
11:06<geoff_k_>i can use svn when i work it out its time i did
11:07<Ammler>that line would be better :): svn checkout svn:// && cd 0.6.0-beta1 && ./configure && make
11:07<Rubidium>Ammler: s/checkout/export/
11:07<Ammler>hmm, maybe export, yeah
11:07<Rubidium>saves you like 20 MB
11:07<geoff_k_>sounds good i'll give it a go thanks
11:07<Ammler>thats the difference to trunk
11:08<Ammler>tags won't change, do they?
11:08<Rubidium>they should not, and if they do, it's a developer who messed up
11:09<geoff_k_>well its doing something so i'll, let you know how it goes
11:11<Ammler>Rubidium: hmm on svn would be best to update to r11462 and ./configure --revision=0.6.0-beta1, wouldn't?
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11:13<Rubidium>Ammler: no!
11:14<Rubidium>never ever do that as it is bound to break
11:15<Ammler>Rubidium: we use SVN checkouts for all coop servers, but I would like to participate on beta test
11:16<Ammler>the bin is at ~/svn-public/bin
11:16<Ammler>and svn-public is the trunk for public server
11:17<Ammler>we have the whole configuration there (autopilot, grf, openttd.cfg), do I need to make a new dir and copy those things to there?
11:18<Ammler>and if you release beta2, we have to copy another time?
11:19<+glx>grf just go in the "common" data dir
11:19<Eddi|zuHause3>you can use svn switch or something
11:20<Ammler>svn switch?
11:20<Gonozal_VIII>what's the difference between 0.6.0 beta and trunk? shouldn't that be the same?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>to move between tags
11:22<Eddi|zuHause3>if you have a checkout of tags/0.6.0-beta1 you can switch to tags/0.6.0-beta2
11:22<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: could I also switch from trunk to tags?
11:23<Ammler>and switch does remove first or also only update?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause3>it should work similar to svn up -rXXXX
11:24<Eddi|zuHause3>i.e. apply repository changes and keep local changes
11:24<Eddi|zuHause3>if in doubt, keep a backup ;)
11:29<Ammler>hmm, I guess, then its same as trunk update and Rubidium won't like it too.
11:32<Rubidium>Ammler: the assumption that 0.6.0-beta* == trunk @ revision of tag will not always hold.
11:33<Ammler>aha, ok, now I g
11:33<Ammler>ot it
11:35<Ammler>hmm, so I need to switch to tags or could I leave it, I mean is it for next time or do I need it also for this beta?
11:35<Ammler>(server is already running)
11:36<geoff_k_>is there no openttd.cfg file with this beta? or have i missed something
11:37<Ammler>there is none,
11:37<Ammler>I guess, there was never one
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11:37<Ammler>it will be generated automatically if needed
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11:37<geoff_k_>i see so i can only edit the setting with the gui i guess i create my own, the releases so far have them but i use my own for different servers anyway usualy
11:38<geoff_k_>unless i create my own*
11:38<Rubidium>Ammler: with the stupidity with respect to OpenTTD version numbers from members of OpenTTDCoop I really hope you do not start forcing the revision numbers
11:38<Ammler>you can start/stop ottd and you will have your cfg
11:39<Rubidium>as it is going to cause trouble again
11:39<Ammler>Rubidium: we need that all the time
11:39<Ammler>because we patching the server
11:39<Rubidium>why do you need that?
11:39<geoff_k_>Ammler, i did start and stop after setting all the patches but i dont see no openttd.cfg i'll check again though
11:40<+glx>geoff_k_: check in ~/openttd
11:40<Ammler>atm, its dihedrals cfg reload patch
11:40<Rubidium>Ammler: so OpenTTDCoop's binary is NOT a regular nightly/release, so it should not have a regular nightly/release version number.
11:40<Ammler>hmm, its only server side
11:40<geoff_k_>glx, i don;t have that i didn;t do make install im running it with just doing make
11:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11463 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix: some OSes seem not to handle allocating 0 bytes in the same manner as others do.
11:41<Rubidium>Ammler: yeah, causing desyncs when it is just a messup on your side
11:42<+glx>like rxxx patched and reporting ryyyy
11:43<Ammler>well, IF we would have problems with something, we know how to use svn revert before asking for support
11:43<Rubidium>only the ./configure overrides do not clear on a revert
11:44<Ammler>hmm, thats new to me, are you sure?
11:44<geoff_k_>can't find no openttd.cfg anywhere started it and closed it 2 times unless its hiding somewhere i don't know of
11:44<Ammler>I did that many times
11:44<+glx>geoff_k_: did you checked where I told you to check?
11:44<valhallasw>Ammler: the generated configure files are not included in a svn co
11:44<valhallasw>and indeed, forcing an incorrect revision is just plain stupid
11:45<geoff_k_>glx, i don;t have a openttd dir i looked in the bin/ folder
11:45<Ammler>well, of course but that the rev.cpp for, isn't?
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11:45<geoff_k_>and a few other places
11:45<+glx>check in your home dir
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11:45<Ammler>valhallasw: its a little bit too late to say that or have you ever told that earlier?
11:46<+glx>hmm it's ~/.openttd for linux
11:46<geoff_k_>glx, ah i got it thanks its ~/.openttd hidden dir
11:46<hylje>what does ottd use for sockets
11:46<+glx>winsock2 for windows
11:47<Ammler>valhallasw: <-- check history and you know how long we are patching our servers
11:48<Ammler>but well, we can revert it, if its really that stupid
11:49<valhallasw>what does dihedrals patch do?
11:49<Ammler>its possible to reload settings without SSH
11:49<Ammler>command newgaem
11:49<valhallasw>ok, but that causes wanted desyncs
11:49<valhallasw>or at least wanted disconnects
11:49<valhallasw>so that patch should be ok
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11:50<valhallasw>but if we use any patch that changes gameplay, forcing the revision number is stupid :)
11:50<Ammler>of course
11:50<Ammler>we use that on MZ
11:50<valhallasw>(forcing revision numbers is like using goto: stupid, unless you are 100% sure you are doing the right thing)
11:51<Ammler>sometimes, I personally do that to have client features, where aren't already on the server revision
11:51<Rubidium>and with openttdcoop you certainly cannot be 100% sure
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11:52<+glx>I remember we searched for a desync caused by this kind of error
11:53<valhallasw>Rubidium: patches like dihedrals generate wanted desyncs ;)
11:53<Sacro>if Atari goes bankrupt, what happens to the copyrights?
11:53<Ammler>glx: more concret please?
11:54<valhallasw>Sacro: I suppose they go on auction?
11:54<Ammler>you can buy them for 1$
11:54[~]Sacro wins them and then sues OpenTTD :D
11:56<+glx>Ammler: the source were up to date with trunk, but the server reported an older rev or something like that
11:56<Sacro>i wouldn't sue for much
11:56<Sacro>probably just £5
11:56<Sacro>that'd cover me for a pizza
11:57<@orudge>or you could make it free
11:57<@orudge>and we'd give you £5 for a pizza
11:57<Sacro>ooh, that would also work
11:57<Ammler>glx: yep, because a member updated the server after some monts the 1. time without reading the Admin wiki
11:58<Sacro>"To edit openttd.cfg via SSH you should use vim: vi openttd.cfg"
11:58<Sacro>that doesn't seem right
11:58<Sacro>surely you are using Vi
11:58<valhallasw>Sacro: vi is a symlink to vim ;)
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11:59<Sacro>valhallasw: ah right
11:59<Sacro>my distro has vi, vim and gvim as seperates
12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 8 14. Sep 19:23 /usr/bin/vi -> /bin/vim
12:00<Ammler>Well, I guess, the patch isn't worth to have such confusing
12:01<valhallasw>I'd rather see the server report something like MC for modified/compatible
12:01<Ammler>valhallasw: that won't happen, or do you like to provide all different bins
12:01<valhallasw>Ammler: :z
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12:02<valhallasw>I mean that the clients will connect, but it will still be clear it's a modified version
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12:03<+michi_cc>Rubidium: any chance to get that update to determineversion.vbs into trunk? especially now as the correct revision is rather important with the new openttd.grf
12:03<valhallasw>.vbs? O_o
12:04<Noldo_>project file?
12:04<+michi_cc>support file for visual studio
12:05<valhallasw>vbs sounds like 'visual basic script' to me :P
12:05<Sacro>yes, me too *shudders*
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12:06<oh>where can I find 0.6.0-b1?
12:06<oh>just another nightly?
12:06<+michi_cc>would you mind a .bat file less? or maybe a .js file :)
12:06<+michi_cc>and yeah, it is visual basic script
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12:10<Rubidium>michi_cc: better let glx do that as he can actually test whether it works
12:10<Rubidium>oh: not another nightly, but we're still in the process of making the binaries
12:10<+glx>michi_cc: the git thing?
12:12<oh>Rubidium: osx ones holding you back?
12:12<Ammler>general question, will you include other features to 0.6 final then in beta or only bugfixes?
12:12<+glx>oh: we need the osx dev for that
12:12<Rubidium>not anymore ;)
12:13<Eddi|zuHause3>then why do we keep him? :p
12:14<Sacro>nah, we should dispose of the OSX dev
12:14<Sacro>he smells funny
12:15<yorick>Ammler: the shore patch
12:15<Rubidium>well, for a OSX releases/compatability we do
12:16<@orudge>there we go, 0.6.0-beta1-os2 up too
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12:16<MarkSlap>Isn't this cute: ?
12:17<oh>MarkSlap: blasphemy
12:17<Rubidium>orudge: could you update the md5sums at ?
12:17<+michi_cc>glx: yeah, that one
12:17<+glx>reinstalling git to be able to test :)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause3>MarkSlap: what are you supposed to see there?
12:18<MarkSlap>The cute dock
12:19<oh>I've fallen in love with the monstrosity that is the 10.5 dock
12:19<Eddi|zuHause3>is that an osx dock under windows or mirc under osx? :p
12:19<oh>that screen reminds me of an early version of the gdesklets dock ;P
12:20<Eddi|zuHause3>in both cases it's probably a stupid thing to do
12:20<yorick>any binaries online?
12:20<oh>the win binaries are there
12:20<Sacro>it knows some half decent defaults
12:20<Sacro>unless its already found an existing config
12:20<Sacro>which could provide issues
12:20<+glx>yorick: usual place
12:21<yorick>sorry, i don't know the usual place for stables
12:22<yorick>looks very irritation to me
12:22<yorick>to have name oh with highlight
12:22<oh>yeah, didnt grab my username with irc in mind ;P
12:22<Sacro>i shall have to do one for ArchLinux
12:23<Sacro>oh: but you will get the most mentioned nick in the stats
12:23<floffe>on another channel, someone apparently changed nick to forehead once
12:24<floffe>he was attacked a lot, according to stats
12:24[~]Sacro slaps forehead
12:25<Sacro>orudge: can you correct the spelling of officially please :)
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12:27<MarkSlap>Eddi|zuHause3, Windows with RockerDock
12:27<MarkSlap>Freeware <3
12:27<Sacro>Linux <3
12:28<Sacro>i need more SimSig players :(
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12:28<MarkSlap>I'm running Debian on my wrks
12:28<Sacro>i'm sorry
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12:29<MarkSlap>Why? :P
12:29<geoff_k_>on this beta1 my desktop task bar seems to be hiding the bottom of the screen, looks fine full screen don't suppose anyone else has this ? ( Ammler ? )
12:30<MarkSlap>I'm more of an OSuSE-person usually, but I'm in love with APT
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12:30<geoff_k_>debian is good at what it does i run most my servers on it
12:31<geoff_k_>good support plenty of packages
12:31<geoff_k_>and simple to maintain
12:32<Sacro>apt is crap :(
12:32<Sacro>rpm is worse
12:32<Sacro>pacman rules!
12:32<oh>MarkSlap: copy that ;>
12:33<Sacro>nice stack
12:33<geoff_k_>i like the pacman form ttylinux its different form the archlinux i tihnk its really simple just a single script i use it in various places
12:33<geoff_k_>s/form/from x2
12:33<Sacro>geoff_k_: pacman started off as a single script
12:33|-|thgergo [] has joined #openttd
12:33<Sacro>and ZOMG WAREZ
12:34<geoff_k_>Sacro, maybe its same thing then i only found it recently, i did notice archlinux uses one called pacman but looked different
12:34<geoff_k_>totaly different options i'm sure the copywrite on it was by the ttylinux creator to but not sure
12:35<oh>MarkSlap: jess ;>
12:35<MarkSlap>Vad gör du på?
12:35<oh>0.6-binary mode ;P
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12:39<oh>man, textmate is the best text editor, any os :>
12:41<geoff_k_>i use kate, kwrite on the desktop or vi, nano and joe in terminal i only use linux, vi can be anoying sometimes different distros it seems to have different habbits with it
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12:43<Sacro>i miss kwrite
12:44<Zuu>vim/gvim is available for lots of platforms so you'll never miss it. :)
12:45<Sacro>is it /tags/something ?
12:46<Zuu>Sacro: ?
12:46<Sacro>for the new beta
12:47<Zuu>beta of what?
12:47<geoff_k_>i did svn export svn://
12:47<Sacro>Zuu: look at the channel name :p
12:48<oh>what's the youtube part of the topic all about?
12:48<Zuu>I only visit dev-forum every day, not the general forum. But I did check the actially.
12:48[~]Sacro looks innocent
12:49<Sacro>arch is going to have openttd, openttd-svn and openttd-beta
12:50<hylje>what about when we don't have any beta
12:50[~]Zuu don't sees anything about a beta in the general forum.
12:50[~]Zuu feels lost
12:51<Sacro>hylje: unsure so far
12:51<Gonozal_VIII>isn't the trunk the beta of the next release anyways?
12:51<Sacro>as I can't have 0.6.0-beta1 as a version number
12:52<Sacro>can't it be 0.6.0beta1
12:52[~]Zuu finds the word 0.6.0-beta on the download page of :)
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12:53<Sacro>alas poor yorick!
12:54<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: no, more like alpha
12:54<geoff_k_>when you get beta1 running see if the taskbar on your desktop (if your runnign that way) hides the bottom of the screen because it does for me
12:54<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: but the point is to have a public release so more people will test stuff
12:54<Gonozal_VIII>ah i see
12:55<geoff_k_>duh no forget that i just resized it and maximised it its fine now :)
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>you would kinda expect that the task bar, if set to "always on top" would also be on top of the ottd window...
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12:56<geoff_k_>its normaly fine no idea how it got liek that never seen it before
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>started new install without config file?
12:57<geoff_k_>yeah i did actauly
12:57<geoff_k_>using default config
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>then the maximised setting is probably saved
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>so you never noticed it
12:57<geoff_k_>or defuult file i've edited it
12:58<geoff_k_>yeah will be
12:58<geoff_k_>i usualy create my own config file from the original and always run it dedicated server
12:58<Zuu>Though, unless you specify with an argument it will use the configuration file in your home directory as of now, not the one in current directory.
12:59<geoff_k_>yeah i found it with help the config is in ~/.openttd
12:59<Gonozal_VIII>Nightly builds are available for the daring and adventurous users who wish to be on the bleeding edge. Note that these builds are completely unsupported and may not even function properly. Use at your own risk. Backup your savegame ALWAYS before using a nightly. Don't complain to us if it has eaten your savegame. <-- maybe if you change that paragraph a little more people would use nightlies... i think they are more stable than t
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13:01<Gonozal_VIII>hat suggests
13:01<Noldo_>today's nightly might be as stable as the stable it self, but tomorrow's might not be
13:01<yorick>i think they are more stable than t...... the real stable
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13:08<Gonozal_VIII>it's written in a very negative way without mentioning that there are lots of new features in it...
13:10<rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: but it is for the case that there is a really broken trunk revision
13:11|-|rubidium changed nick to Rubidium
13:12<Gonozal_VIII>sure the risk hast to be mentioned but it doesn't happen very often and i never had a broken save with the nightlies
13:13<Rubidium>you maybe not, but I have
13:13<Zuu>I see you devs (and I guess skidd13 too) have managed to shorten the list of bug reports to a fairly short list over the weekend. Very nice :)
13:13<Gonozal_VIII>something that loading it with the next nightly didn't fix?
13:13<Zuu>(open bug reports that is)
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13:57<geoff_k_>nice automatic signal completion, i remember saying it would be nice to have some time ago in here, not sure i like the new default signals though but the auto feature makes that no problem
13:58<Gonozal_VIII>new default signals?
13:58<geoff_k_>well they are here unless i done something
13:58<geoff_k_>its the one you normaly have to press ctrl for
13:59<geoff_k_>the old style signals
13:59<geoff_k_>maybe its due to era im still browsing the changelog
13:59<Gonozal_VIII>you can change the year when lights will be used
14:00<geoff_k_>not seen that as an option before is it new?
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>not very new but new
14:01<geoff_k_>i might liek the old signals now with this new auto completion feature i always found them more hassel and i like to save time building
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>just set the year to 1900 or something if you always want lights as default
14:01<+glx>0 is enough
14:02<geoff_k_>i started the map on 1935
14:02<geoff_k_>don't know that without newgrfs there are any useful vehicles
14:02<geoff_k_>or any at all
14:03<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, the first ones start around that date
14:03<geoff_k_>unless something was added i've not looked at, maybe i should check a few past changlogs i;ve never read them before
14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>nothing with the default vehicles got changed
14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>it was already like that in TTO
14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, TTO started at 1930
14:04<geoff_k_>yeah didn't think so i usualy check i like the idea of starting early as possible
14:05<Eddi|zuHause3>they left out a few engines when they made TTD
14:05<geoff_k_>never seen TTO, i;ve known TTD though since the DOS version
14:06<Eddi|zuHause3>TTO only had one monorail engine, and no maglevs
14:06<geoff_k_>actualy i say TTD i may be getting confused because the 1st version i seen was not deluxe
14:06<geoff_k_>one thing i never did with the old game was get that far i always ended up starting a new game
14:07|-|Yorick|AFK changed nick to YOrick
14:07<geoff_k_>i get confused now what the original game did and didn't do
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>in the first few (realtime) years, i never got that far, because my computer was very slow
14:08<geoff_k_>might of been same reason here, i remember 1st playing it on a very new P133 it was one of 1st pentium class pc's to be built i know it worked on 486's
14:10<Hendikins>Bjarni: Nothing like late trains and a broken TVM to spice up what was supposed to be a cleaning shift.
14:12<Gonozal_VIII>do i remember right that you could build diagonal rails only tile by tile?
14:13|-|YOrick changed nick to Yorick
14:13<floffe>Gonozal_VIII: yes
14:13<geoff_k_>i never knew of any drag and drop rails in the original game but maybe i didn;t see it i never played online back then so my learning curve was limited
14:14<geoff_k_>same with one way signals
14:14<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: yes.... I did it this way --> holding arrow and quickly pressing Insert (worked as left mouse button)
14:14<geoff_k_>didn;t really learn the game until i got online with this
14:14<geoff_k_>even though i had played it quite a bit
14:14<SmatZ>maybe one of harder changes in ottd for me - ins no longer works as lmb...
14:14<Gonozal_VIII>aaah i can remember now... i used a slow train and built in it's viewpoint
14:18<geoff_k_>actualy i do remember diagonal tile placement to be a pain
14:18<geoff_k_>always avoided it
14:19<Gonozal_VIII>me too but the trick with building in the train window was quite nice^^
14:20<geoff_k_>yeah i think i did that before myself once or twice
14:22<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't use signals :D one train per line
14:22<geoff_k_>the way i ply the game now though is so much different to then, i learned a lot from playing online which is why i'm uncertain what exactly was in the original that i never noticed
14:24<geoff_k_>there are only 2 games i go back that far with that i still play, ttd and civ but i replaced them both with openttd and freeciv, civ i used to play on the amiga
14:24<geoff_k_>infact they are almost the only games i play
14:26<geoff_k_>sometimes i still i like to play rollercoaster tycoon II which is a bit later and as we should all know is by same person as TTD but that requires windows and thats becoming a thing of the past for me i hardly use it for anything else
14:26<geoff_k_>shame can't make a good multiplayer out of RCT i like it but how would that be multiplayer i don't know
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14:32<Zuu>geoff_k_: Perhaps same as Theme Hospital MP? Seperate parks on the same map, but visitors can move from park to park perhaps.
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14:33<geoff_k_>Zuu, yeah possible i've played that one a bit but not much, used to have loads of tycoon type games
14:33<geoff_k_>stil have but i don't play any of them
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14:34<Zuu>I never got MP to work on Theme Hospital, but I've done all SP maps on it. :)
14:36<geoff_k_>openttd has to be the best multiplayer real time game out there for me, only trhing i think might knowck a few points off that and still probably not be better is a decent opensource red alert / C&C type game that was low on graphics and more things in the game
14:37<geoff_k_>i there there is a FreeRA or something out there i seen but its a bit abandonded form what i looked at and not fully released properly
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14:39<geoff_k_>really i should contratulate the good work goes on round here the realeases come very quickly, turn you back for a moment and you miss a version or 2 it gets better all the time
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14:42<@Bjarni> <Hendikins> Bjarni: Nothing like late trains and a broken TVM to spice up what was supposed to be a cleaning shift. <-- hehe... what is TVM? :)
14:42<Yorick>shouldn't any of the devs make a newsposting
14:43<geoff_k_>i often wonder what will this game be like in 30 or more years time i'm confident its never going to go away
14:43<@Bjarni>that depends
14:43<@Bjarni>how much are you willing to pay us to do so?
14:43<Rubidium>it's rather: how much are you willing to pay Microsoft to keep supporting C++
14:44<Rubidium>(or Apple)
14:44<@Bjarni>even if we sell all our internal organs we wouldn't have enough to pay that amount
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14:45<@Bjarni>I don't think GCC will stop supporting C++
14:45<Eddi|zuHause3>but someone has to be supporting GCC
14:46<@Bjarni>it's too soon to tell what OSes that are available in 30 years
14:46<@Bjarni>try to go back 30 years and predict what we have today
14:46<@Bjarni>but... I was actually replying to Yorick, not geoff_k_ :P
14:46<geoff_k_>gcc is a part of the industry unless a viable reasonable alternative comes along i dont see it going anyshere
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>what industry?
14:47<hylje>no need to either
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>all industry i know uses windows and MSVC
14:47<geoff_k_>the industry of software creation and developemnt its too widely used i think
14:47<geoff_k_>some thing just are here to stay i bleive
14:47<Zuu>Such as visual basic 6.0 aka VBA :)
14:48<geoff_k_>just liek linux its not going anywhere althjough i understand the point
14:48<geoff_k_>sorry for typos
14:49<geoff_k_>things may change but no one is going to pull out the rug from under the projects that use them now that i do believe
14:49<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause3> all industry i know uses windows and MSVC <-- hardware industry uses GCC
14:49<Yorick>shouldn't any of the devs make a newsposting
14:49<@Bjarni>that depends
14:49<@Bjarni>how much are you willing to pay us to do so?
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14:50<@Bjarni>you never answered that question :P
14:50<geoff_k_>well i don;t know there is an underside to industry *i think* where you don;t actualy see hwere a lot of this technology goes its not jsut computers at home
14:50<Yorick>Bjarni: nothing
14:50<@Bjarni>fair enough
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14:54<geoff_k_>my way of putting it would be to take gcc out of the industry would be like removing the gearbox from a car, the gear box is never going to go away
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14:55<geoff_k_>the past yes things have move fast and changed very fast but they are early experimental changes and time has moved on now
14:55|-|oh [] has joined #openttd
14:55<MaSch>is there a german channel for openTTD questions? ^^
14:56<ln->this one, if you ask in the german dialect called "englisch".
14:57<Zuu>For most people here english is the second language so you are welcome to ask your questions here. :)
14:57<MaSch>so.. okay i'll try
14:58<ln->modern german has >50% english words anyway.
14:58<geoff_k_>im english and still make a mess of it
14:58<MaSch>by trains etc there is a option "transship" or so.. i dont know the english word
14:59<MaSch>maybe.. so that the train transports something to the station and the next train bring it to the target
15:00<Yorick>yes.. transfer
15:01<MaSch>thanks ^^
15:02<MaSch>so.. now i have a train that transports something from a to b and it brings me up to 77k .... in yellow color, so i dont get it on my bank account
15:03<MaSch>the next train transports it from b to c
15:03<MaSch>and it only brings 17k O.o
15:03<Yorick>if you look at your bank account too?
15:04<geoff_k_>one thing i've always found with transfering cargo is it don't make good profits
15:05<geoff_k_>i tried it once with 3 and 4 transfers accross a huge map lot of profit is lost
15:05<MaSch>there is a green number "17xxx" .. on my bank account there are only 17k more than bevore
15:05<geoff_k_>i no longer do transfers unless its a very short distance
15:05<valhallasw>geoff_k_: yes, because the cargo needs to wait at those stations
15:05<MaSch>so i had to transport the stuff directly to the target`?
15:06<Rubidium>MaSch: what version are you playing?
15:06<geoff_k_>valhallasw, yeah thats what i guessed shame i feel though
15:06<valhallasw>add more trains :D
15:06<Rubidium>it's kinda know problem there
15:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11465 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix: more user-friedly placement in X and Y directions (most noticeable with autoroad)
15:07<hylje>smatz teh committer
15:07<Rubidium>the 'middle' station gets some cargo directly from an industry, right?
15:07<MaSch>mine -> station -> powerplant
15:08<Rubidium>does the middle station receive cargo from multiple mines?
15:10<hylje>(what'd be the point of having such a station then...
15:10<MaSch>it has "his own" mine and gets stuff from 2 other mines
15:10<Rubidium>that's something that the transfer system can't handle pre 0.5.4
15:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11466 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Fix (r11339): operator priority problem resulting in problematic autoroad placement in some cases
15:10<MaSch>bad >.<
15:10<Rubidium>or at least can handle correctly
15:10<SmatZ>hylje: oh yes :)
15:11<hylje>proceed :-)
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15:12<geoff_k_>maybe the answer to transfers would be to have a value of the damand of a place when it arrives
15:12<MaSch>okay .. i thing i build it on the other way
15:13<Rubidium>geoff_k_: the problem with transfers pre 0.5.4 is that it can only come from a single origin, or it messes up enormously
15:13<Rubidium>giving you either way too much or way too little profit
15:13<geoff_k_>personaly if i went out to buy 100ton of coal i wouldn't expect it to be cheaper because it passed through 10 stations, its more a case of what the demand is at the location it ends at
15:13<geoff_k_>yeah i noticed it never went well and not tried since
15:14<Rubidium>should be better in 0.6.0-beta1 ;)
15:15<geoff_k_>Rubidium, i've got it running i'll let you know :)
15:15<geoff_k_>glad you say it should be better or i may not of tried it
15:15<geoff_k_>might be tomorrow now before i play properly on it
15:16<Rubidium>there are so many things that have improved in 0.6.0-beta1 ;)
15:16<geoff_k_>i;ve got beer open now and bed may come shortly but i;ve got all week to play
15:16<geoff_k_>yeah i noticed a few
15:17<geoff_k_>i really like the signal competetion thats worthy of everything to me, i;ve asked for that in here about a year ago i think it was
15:17<geoff_k_>oope completetion*
15:18<geoff_k_>what is really needced in the game i feel to take it to future days is easier to build and upgrade
15:21<geoff_k_>sometimes it gets too easy in a way because i get performance issues when i start playing to my best, it ends up where i can't keep up and loose the will to continue, but thats not to complain about it just would be better if that stage could never be reached, i need a coop kind of idea maybe companies being able to merge would be intresting
15:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11467 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#1450]: OpenBSD has ALIGN already defined, causing compilation failures.
15:23<Rubidium>geoff_k_: just take a small 128x128 map and keep optimizing; will keep you busy for weeks ;)
15:23<Rubidium>how can I optimize this station so it still fits in this footprint, but has a higher throughput
15:24<Zuu>Take a 128x64 MP with 3-4 players, that will keep them active for 3-4 hours at least.
15:24<geoff_k_>i tried a roaqd only map liek that once slightly bigger but i found the road vehicles were all over ther place and not living up to expectations specialy when the ecconomy takes a dive
15:25<geoff_k_>i tihnk ideal;y the game needs to slow down for me it moves to fast i don't get to do enough, but then if i could i have the other problem performance
15:25<Rubidium>start by disabling animations
15:25<Zuu>I actually would like to find a 128x64 MP again. You really have too think about town raiting at a whole diferent lever then.. :)
15:25<Rubidium>(palette animations that is)
15:26<geoff_k_>i do i noticed that makes a huge inface i'll say very huge difference
15:27<geoff_k_>i always turn the animations off right away or i can't control my mouse it jumps all over the screen
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15:29<geoff_k_>i get 2 things either i use a small mapo and not enough room for players to expand as i'd like or the perfmance gets so bad i give up
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15:30<fjb>geoff_k_: What kind of computer are you using?
15:30<geoff_k_>probalby my own fault not to say im best or anything but i always find myself running away from rest the player on the map and have far more cash to spend
15:31<geoff_k_>fjb, to be honest i find it hard to ell any difference between a PIII and my desktop i now use which is 2Ghz, with 1GIG ram and a 64AGP grapahics card both act the same more or less
15:32<fjb>I have no problem with 1GB ram with a 1024 x 1024 map.
15:33<geoff_k_>most the problems are when i have a few train windows open or aircraft specialy after deisel is introduced and even wose for electric and thereafter
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15:33<geoff_k_>same map size as i play
15:33<fjb>What kind of prozessor is it? A Pentium 4 at 2 GHz is not that fast, an Athlon 64 at 2GHz is much faster.
15:33<geoff_k_>and also i should note no one else who plays my maps has this problem
15:34<geoff_k_>hang on i'll check i've got a lot of pc's i don;t keep track
15:34<fjb>Ok. :-)
15:34<geoff_k_>model name : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2600+
15:35<fjb>Hm, that one is really not the fastest, but it should feel faster than a Pentium 3.
15:35<geoff_k_>maybe i need a faster system but i live off throw away systems i haven't bought a systemmm for years
15:36<geoff_k_>yeah but i find the differnce not much although i used to run the server on a PIII then play on a seperate system but now im using the same box for both
15:36<fjb>The AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2600+ is really outdated now and is energy hungry.
15:37<geoff_k_>maybe thats why a guy 1 floor below me threw it out other than the fact he never cleaned out his cpu fan and heat sink and it crashed all the time
15:37<geoff_k_>it works great though for me for everything else
15:38<geoff_k_>big noticeable difference to what im used to but playing openttd seems not much gain
15:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11468 /trunk/ -Fix (r11330): rev number detection didn't work for git with msys/mingw
15:38<geoff_k_>i tihnk its the cpu myself
15:38<fjb>The Athlon XP gets very hot, needs good cooling and wastes energy.
15:39<geoff_k_>yeah thats was the pr4olbme massive over heating issues it was full of dust when i found it both heat sink and fan and just segfaulted at everything but after cleaning it all out its been nice and stable
15:39<fjb>Is the big map slow from the beginning or only when you are building many vehicles?
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15:40<Rotonen>btw, what do people consider proper stability tests for hardware these days?
15:40<geoff_k_>only when i get fast trains and aricraft that i've noticed
15:40<fjb>Rotonen: Let is fall and when it survives it is stable. :-)
15:40<geoff_k_>i consider stability because i run a lot of my own servers
15:41<Rotonen>fjb: no, not really going to suffice
15:41<geoff_k_>mostly what i run is virtual machines on Xen
15:41<Rotonen>and i'm asking about consumer grade hardware: for professional hardware you can just get the manufacturer kit
15:41<fjb>The next problem with the Athlon XP could be a cheap chipset or slow ram.
15:41<geoff_k_>im a big fan of xen not of the new owners citrix though
15:41<Rotonen>i've settled for running memtest overnight and not getting errors
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>why does it make a difference how fast the vehicles are? every time the window is drawn they have a different position anyways, shouldn't matter if that position is 1 or 10 pixel away from the last
15:42|-|[Bjarni] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no Posting
15:42<fjb>Rotonen: That is good, but you should test the processor with a high load over a few hours.
15:42|-|[Bjarni] changed the topic of #openttd: 0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no Posting
15:42<@Bjarni>oops... added one space too much :P
15:43<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Maybe the game has to do more calculations per time unit for a faster vehicle.
15:43<Rotonen>fjb: memtest does some load on the processor since it is trying to work as fast as possible, afaik.. at least it ramps up the power consumption and heats up the cpu moderately
15:43<Gonozal_VIII>pathfinder for trains... but planes shouldn't require much pathfinding
15:43<fjb>Space? Space is endless? One space? Two spaces? Who cares, they are just alternate realities.
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15:44<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: well the question is: does the vehicle actually move in every single screen update? If it's slow then it might not need to update the screen every single time
15:45<fjb>Rotonen: Most modern Computers should be stable. When it doesn't crash with your applications it is stable for your needs.
15:46<fjb>It is more difficult to build a stable and enegy efficient system.
15:48<geoff_k_>one thing with xen it has poor memory management but it alows me to run several distros on the same box
15:49<fjb>Why poor memory management?
15:49<geoff_k_>which is better powerwise than running them all on physical boxes
15:50<geoff_k_>i'd say try it on a laptop without the mains but i don't recommend it will kill your battery
15:50<fjb>Jails are far more efficient. :-)
15:51<geoff_k_>there is also lguest now its in mainline kernel 2.6.23 but it has 32bit restrictions which to me are not a problem
15:52<geoff_k_>i doubt that it has any good power management but wouldn't like to expect so
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15:55<geoff_k_>oops i regret to say i should of said power management
16:01<Gonozal_VIII>how is the cargo payment calculated with transfers?
16:02<Rubidium>depends on what version of OTTD you are talking about
16:05<Rubidium>the final payment to your bank account == the payment that would be made when you would've moved the cargo directly in exactly the same time period.
16:05<Rubidium>the virtual payment of the individial vehicles depends on how much they would've made when they would be paid 'normally' between those stations, except for the last train.
16:06<Gonozal_VIII>ah.. and that's trasfer credits + income of the last vehicle...
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16:06<Rubidium>the last trains (virtually) gets (final payment) - (sum of virtual payments to the other trains)
16:07<Gonozal_VIII>so that's why the last vehicle sometimes has negative profit when unloading
16:07<Gonozal_VIII>ok then, thanks :-)
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16:13<Phazorx> pretty
16:15<Gonozal_VIII>where is that?
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16:16<Phazorx>hmm... rest of pics are NA
16:16<Phazorx>north american
16:17<Phazorx>i cant recognize engine or cars but look like pasicifc union narrow
16:18<Gonozal_VIII>is the first picture a manually colored black&white photo? looks like a mix of photo and painting
16:19<Phazorx>i dont think it is colored
16:20<Phazorx>looks quite genuine in most part aside of bridge
16:20<Phazorx>there are some heavy focusing issues tho
16:20<fjb>The steam makes it looking odd.
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16:21<fjb>Like fog in some parts of the picture.
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>well... could be .jpg problem
16:21<Phazorx>steam or smoke?
16:22<Gonozal_VIII>smoke, there's not much steam
16:22<geoff_k_>it looks like a aperture thing with the focus looks real
16:22<Phazorx>it is american engine tho, says rio grande on a side
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16:23<Phazorx>and bridge looks like 3 rails?
16:23<skidd13>Hi folks
16:24<Gonozal_VIII>the right rail looks like a tram rail
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16:30<MaSch>i have some trouble while installing openttd 0.6.0 .. after ./configure && make && make install there is only the old version in the /usr/games/bin dir. So i update the directorys manualy... but he dont find the files
16:31<Phazorx> that one looks just like a toy
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16:31<Rubidium>MaSch: it's probably in /usr/local/games or so now
16:31<MaSch>hm okay
16:32<MaSch>and where i had to put the files from the cd?
16:32<Gonozal_VIII>what's the use of that very wide chimney thing?
16:33<+glx>MaSch: you can put them in ~/.openttd
16:33<MaSch>okay thanks
16:33<Gonozal_VIII>to collect rainwater for the engine?^^
16:34<MaSch>works thanks
16:36<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: could be a preheating exchanger there
16:36<Phazorx>dunno really
16:37<Gonozal_VIII>but i agree, it looks like a toy train
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16:40<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> what's the use of that very wide chimney thing? <-- it contains a net to catch sparks. The firebox is full of burning wood and that makes a whole lot of sparks
16:40<fjb>The wide chimney is there to collect the sparks from the burned wood. You need it when you burn wood instead of coal.
16:40<@Bjarni>so it's a "safe the forest" device XD
16:40<MaSch>is there a complete changelog?
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>aaaah thanks for the explanation
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>makes sense
16:41<Rubidium>MaSch: see forum post about 0.6.0-beta1
16:41<Eddi|zuHause3>MaSch: "svn log" ;)
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>i think the last engine would have problems on our electrified lines with that height
16:42<MaSch>dont know how svn works ^^
16:42<Rubidium>although there might be missing some fixes/features that should've been on the list
16:42<Rubidium>but the list is already almost 200 items long (from ~4000 revisions)
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16:44<Eddi|zuHause3><Phazorx> that one looks just like a toy <-- yes, 4-4-0 engines always look like toys, it's also the most common axle scheme for toy engines
16:45<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> i think the last engine would have problems on our electrified lines with that height <-- don't be too sure. It might fit and surprisingly trains can go pretty close without danger if they are designed correctly (this one is grounded pretty good)
16:45<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: apparently it fits just fine where it is
16:45<@Bjarni>USA has higher trains and Big Boys would hit our catenary
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16:46<@Bjarni>4-4-0 is also the most common 19th century design
16:46<Eddi|zuHause3>only the USA rarely have catenary ;)
16:46<@Bjarni>specially America built a zillion of them
16:46<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause3: as well as railtracks and usable modern rolling stock
16:47<Gaucho>hi all !!^^^
16:47<@Bjarni>a Danish railroad imported some 4-4-0 when the European factories were too busy to meet the deadline... they sucked compared to German/Danish designs and they had a short life
16:47<Gaucho>nobody´s play Openttd online?
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16:48<@Bjarni>I say that the one in the picture looks nice but it's technically not a good one even when it was new
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16:49<Gonozal_VIII>if you burn wood and there's lots of wood around you probably don't care that much about efficiency
16:50<Phazorx>Bjarni: it's all about looks
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16:50<Phazorx>Gonozal_VIII: quite some us, most canada and russia have plenty of wood and gret distances to cover
16:51<Phazorx>russia has a lot of steamers under conservation and they are hybrids, can take heavy oil, coal or wood
16:51<@Bjarni>heavy oil sucks for train operation
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16:52<@Bjarni>it pollutes, smell really REALLY horrible and isn't healthy to be anywhere near
16:52<Phazorx>Bjarni: just an option
16:52<Phazorx>they used to have disiels run exclusively on mazut
16:53<@Bjarni>I wonder about that pipe that blows the steam out... why would they want to do that?
16:53<Phazorx>Bjarni: redusing pressure/safety?
16:53<Phazorx>and at elast it is a pretty whistle
16:54<@Bjarni>the whole idea is that whenever you make steam escape you do it though the funnel so you create draft in the firebox and that way increase the steam production (use more => produce more)
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16:54<@Bjarni>it's not a whistle or a safety valve
16:55<@Bjarni>looks like it's doing nothing except letting out steam
16:56<@Bjarni>notice how the funnel is joined of two pieces... I guess it's done to make it go though really low tunnels or something similar
16:56<@Bjarni>take off the funnel when moving the engine from the main repair shop to the place where it's actually used
16:56<@Bjarni>good idea if it's somewhat airtight
16:57<@Bjarni>but I fear it leaks so much that it hurts performance
16:57<@Bjarni>oh well
16:57<@Bjarni>still looks like an ok bulk freight engine
16:57<Phazorx>hmm.. from what i know engines like that where used in part of russia where are no mountains
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>maybe that pipe is to let the steam out when you want to stop the engine?
16:58<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> maybe that pipe is to let the steam out when you want to stop the engine? <-- when you want to stop the engine you just close all valves and stop the fire... the whole idea is to keep the water and steam in the boiler so it can start on it next time
16:58<Phazorx>tender is cool :)
16:58<@Bjarni>also you don't want it to cool down as boilers that never cools down lasts longer
16:59<Gonozal_VIII>you could want to open it for repairs or something
16:59<Gonozal_VIII>but... what do i know about steam engines... nothing
16:59[~]Bjarni knows how to drive steam
16:59<Phazorx>they look nice :)
17:00<@Bjarni>it's actually more tricky to shovel coal into them than one might think
17:00<Phazorx>Bjarni: rusty steam or modern?
17:00<@Bjarni>you see... they aren't rusty but they are still around 100 years old
17:00<Phazorx>you said you know how :)
17:01<Phazorx>by rusty i mean old :)
17:01<@Bjarni> <-- picture from my personal collection
17:02<@Bjarni>lighting is poor so it's tricky to see that it's actually steam
17:02<@Bjarni>but you can make out the boiler and water box
17:02<Phazorx>definately a bit dark
17:02<@Bjarni>it's a tunnel... what did you expect? :)
17:03<Phazorx>a beam of light? :o)
17:03<@Bjarni>the railroad added lights on the tracks because it's a dual tracked line and since it's also busy the trains has to dim the headlights
17:05<@Bjarni>we don't have mountains so this is a tunnel under a city
17:05<@Bjarni>there is a similar tunnel with two tracks right next to it
17:05<Phazorx>something tells me a long tunnel is a bad place for steamer to be
17:05<Phazorx>especialy wood driven one
17:05<@Bjarni>for some reason people didn't want those 4 tracks to be at street level
17:06<@Bjarni>hmm... that would be interesting
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17:06<@Bjarni>during rush our some of the trains can see the taillights of the train in front of them
17:06<@Bjarni>not good for road level crossings
17:07<@Bjarni>why would it be worse for wood powered ones than coal powered ones?
17:08<Phazorx>seeing taillights? not sure how bright is it, but on strauight run full brightness headlight is visible from horizont, like 15km if weather permits
17:08<Phazorx>Bjarni: CO accumulation
17:08<Phazorx>wood also needs more oxygen
17:08<Phazorx>so you suck out oxygen and replaces it with lots of CO2 and CO in contained space
17:08<@Bjarni>it's like when the rear of a train leaves the platform the next train can be entering it (at low speed)
17:09<Phazorx>Bjarni: so that's <1km
17:09<Phazorx>in a train sense that is bumper to bumper
17:10<@Bjarni>I had to keep a cool head the first time I was in the rear of a train and another one came around the curve 50 meters behind us
17:10<Phazorx>err... how about signals?
17:11<Phazorx>50m doesnt sound lie anywhere close to safety condition
17:11<@Bjarni>but the thing is that the train controlling computer is aware of this and will ensure say minimum 30 meters between the trains
17:11<Phazorx>it surely isnt enough to stop
17:11<@Bjarni>it is at 15 km/h
17:11<@Bjarni>or 10 km/h
17:11<@Bjarni>or whatever
17:11<Phazorx>i'd say that depends on weight as well
17:11<Phazorx>but there is some low speed fir which it is enough
17:12<Phazorx>yet train running at that speed arent at best of their efficiency
17:12<@Bjarni>the train computer knows how long it takes to brake at any speed and will ensure a safety distance
17:12<Phazorx>i think you trust computers way too much :)
17:13<@Bjarni>if the computer isn't running at peak performance, then it reports failure and the driver has to stop at the signals
17:13<Phazorx>probably still better than a human but it doesnt matter who tells me "there is enough room to break" if i see that there isnt :o)
17:13<@Bjarni><Phazorx> yet train running at that speed arent at best of their efficiency <-- this isn't normal... it's called "taking too long to leave the platform"
17:13<Phazorx>i see
17:14<@Bjarni>well... the thing is they use a signal system with blocks kind of like OpenTTD... the thing is that around busy platforms the blocks are really short
17:15<@Bjarni>there is no signal at each block, but the computer is informed what block to stop in
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17:15<@Bjarni>and there is usually a free block between the that block and the train in front of it
17:16<Phazorx>sounds like SML & FS#1063 kind of issue
17:16<@Bjarni>so if it fails to stop due to slippery tracks in combo with a sleeping driver then the trains will still not hit each other
17:17<Phazorx>50m you mentioned doesnt sound like enough to conmpensate for that i guess
17:17<@Bjarni>I think it was like 50 m
17:17<@Bjarni>it stopped after driving say 5 meters
17:18<Phazorx>tiny whole between huge trains
17:19<@Bjarni>the train I was on was around 150 meters and the one behind us was... well I don't know
17:19<@Bjarni>say 80 meters
17:19<Phazorx>so it isnt all that bad
17:19<Phazorx>just borderline unsafe
17:19<@Bjarni>not even borderline unsafe
17:20<@Bjarni>this system has been used for years
17:20<@Bjarni>no accidents due to system failures at all
17:20<Phazorx>that's good
17:20<@Bjarni>generally our rail safety is almost too good (too expensive)
17:20<@Bjarni>nothing really happens
17:21<Phazorx>i dont see that as a fault
17:21<@Bjarni>even then train that derailed @160 km/h.... it broke the track and maybe the trailing bogie and that's that
17:21<@Bjarni>no injuries at all
17:22<@Bjarni>but I guess the people in the derailed car didn't like it until it stopped
17:23<@Bjarni> <Phazorx> i dont see that as a fault <-- the fault is that it's so expensive to operate a railroad that it's not used enough
17:23<@Bjarni>maintaining a railroad crossing costs the same as a small apartment every year
17:24<@Bjarni>I presume it can be done cheaper without sacrificing safety
17:24<Gonozal_VIII>yes, remove the crossings :-)
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>much cheaper
17:25<@Bjarni>some of the safety issues that increase the price are more or less based on what certain people think (politicians?) rather than actual known safety issues
17:26<Zuu>Btw, (maybe dumb question) are we talking about crossings between rail and road or rail and rail?
17:27<Zuu>rail and rail is perhaps always called junctions in english.. hmm
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17:28<@Bjarni>I don't like this one: politicians wants to remove a crossing. Local residents (and hence local politicians) wants to keep it. Solution: close it for cars but you can still walk and ride bikes passed it. The crossing stuff is taken down and replaced with something that looks similar, but the bell is not as loud and the train driver is no longer informed if the crossing fails
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17:28<Gonozal_VIII>that's stupid
17:28<@Bjarni>how is it increased security to close it for cars, but prevent the train driver from seeing that people can't tell that there is a train coming if it fails?
17:29<@Bjarni>I think it's better to put up a sign saying "look for trains" because then people will look. If there is a red light and a bell, then people presume that there is no train if it's off
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17:30<Gonozal_VIII>that works if you can see far enough
17:31<@Bjarni>elsewhere on the same line they use the look for trains sign and there is a sign for the trains to sound the horn
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17:32<Gonozal_VIII>i would use bridges/tunnels everywhere it's possible to do so
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17:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11469 /trunk/ -Fix (r11051): only consider changes in src when detecting modified (M) version
17:38<@Bjarni>bridges are more expensive than a "look for trains" sign
17:38<Gonozal_VIII>but that works for cars too
17:40<@Bjarni>I was thinking of crossings without cars
17:40<@Bjarni>but recently we have a problem at those crossings
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>are there many of those?
17:40<@Bjarni>people ignore the trains
17:40<@Bjarni>I have an example
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>that's an unhealthy thing to do
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17:41<@Bjarni>I was driving downhill toward a station and there was a guy with a camera sitting on the tracks recording me. I use the horn for like 5 sec and he stays on the track
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17:41<@Bjarni>after a break of like 2 sec I use the horn again for like 5 sec and he moves away from the track
17:42<Gonozal_VIII>stupid guy
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17:42<@Bjarni>2 sec later a woman runs out from behind a bush (a rather large one), crosses the tracks and disappears into the forest
17:42<@Bjarni>and it was like 20-30 meters in front of me
17:43<@Bjarni>nobody should claim not to have heard me
17:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11470 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Codechange: add git detection to MSVC (michi_cc)
17:43<@Bjarni>and I'm 100% sure she didn't even look at the tracks
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17:43<@Bjarni>for trains
17:43<Sacro>there are tracks for other things?
17:44<@Bjarni>she didn't look for trains :P
17:44<Gonozal_VIII>yes, cranes
17:44<@Bjarni>this is besides the point... she ran across the tracks right in front of the train
17:44<@Bjarni>I used the horn again and I don't think she noticed
17:45<@Bjarni>maybe she had an MP3 player or something
17:45|-|lola22 [] has quit []
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>there will always be stupid people like that no matter how much safety
17:45<Zuu>Even if you're deaf you'll feel the vibrations if I'm not wrong?
17:45<@Bjarni>police reports that those are a serious issue... people run for fitness and turn them up so loud that they don't hear traffic and accidents happens
17:46<@Bjarni><Zuu> Even if you're deaf you'll feel the vibrations if I'm not wrong? <-- if you are deaf, then you will stop in front of the track and look for trains before crossing
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think you can feel a train through the air or the soft ground in a forrest
17:46<@Bjarni>I think I was driving around 30 km/h (approaching station)
17:46<|fjb|>Last year a teenager died on a track. It was night and he was walking home from a disco. He walked along the tracks, because there was no road next to the track. He was stupid enough to listen to a mp3 player, so he didn't hear the train.
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>and the lights?
17:47<Zuu>Bjarni: For sure you will. And you would look even if you might hear it.
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>should have seen the train lights
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>even from behind
17:48<@Bjarni>maybe he was drunk
17:48<@Bjarni>or drugged
17:48<|fjb|>You don't see the lights of a train coming from behind.
17:48<@Bjarni>that depends on the train
17:48<@Bjarni>I know an engine where you don't and one where you will for sure
17:48<|fjb|>And probably he was a bit drunk at tired ofcourse.
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>at night without a road and roadlights nearby you do
17:49<@Bjarni>some trains use the headlights to be seen, not to see
17:49<|fjb|>Here in germany the train lights usually are not that bright because there are many roads next to the tracks.
17:49<@Bjarni>because they are so rarely in conditions where headlights matters for their own vision
17:50|-||fjb| changed nick to fjb
17:50<@Bjarni>I only dimmed the headlights once due to a road
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17:50<Gonozal_VIII>here in austria you would realise that it's getting lighter around you ;-)
17:50<@Bjarni>the train didn't move and notice that the headlight was aiming directly on a road
17:50<@Bjarni>blinding all the cars
17:51<fjb>I may be too late when it gets bright around you...
17:51|-|Stoffe [] has quit [Quit: Peace and Protection 4.22.2]
17:51<@Bjarni>that depends on the speed of the train
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>anyways... how stupid do you have to be to walk around on train tracks while listening to loud music
17:52<@Bjarni>if he was on the road, then some random car would have hit him
17:52<fjb>Do you know the Darvin Award?
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>that qualifies for a darwin award
17:52<Tefad>darwin award.
17:53<@Bjarni>that's an award that I'm not trying to get
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18:00<@Bjarni>Sacro: is that a hobby of yours?
18:00<Sacro>Bjarni: killing cartoon rabbits?
18:00<Sacro>not per se
18:01<@Bjarni>I was more thinking like suicide
18:02<@Bjarni>or is it the darwin award you are after?
18:03|-|oh [] has joined #openttd
18:04<@Bjarni>it takes a really sick mind to think this up
18:06|-|stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:06<Gonozal_VIII>still hasn't finished loading
18:08[~]fjb once knew the offical keeper of the german suicide faq. :-)
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>wtf suicide faq?
18:09<fjb>A faq about commiting suicide.
18:09<@Bjarni>"once knew"... I guess he became too good at the topic
18:10<fjb>No, he was really bad. I guess he is still alive. He made some attempts, but didn't succide.
18:10<@Bjarni>if it were up to me, then everybody connected to such a site should be arrested
18:10<fjb>He was (is?) really weird. I'm glad not to meet him anymore.
18:10<oh>failing to properly commit suicide really does have to put someone's self-esteem into negative values
18:11<@Bjarni>he had the faq, but he couldn't figure out how to do it himself?
18:12<oh>and damn whoever decided to take the landscape button off railway construction :>
18:12<@Bjarni>not me
18:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11471 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp viewport.cpp viewport.h window.cpp): -Codechange: one more variable retyped to enum ViewportHighlightMode
18:15<SmatZ>oh: you may link the Landscape toolbar with all building toolbars, available since... very old versions. Is it what you are looking for?
18:16<oh>SmatZ: indeed, found it now :P
18:16<SmatZ>great :)
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18:18|-|Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:20<Eddi|zuHause3>i wonder why you always see ludde quitting, but never joining...
18:21<fjb>He never joins...
18:21<@Bjarni>the fact is that he is Q
18:21<@Bjarni>he is everywhere
18:21<@Bjarni>all of a sudden he is here without entering
18:21<@Bjarni>but we are sure to know when he leaves
18:22|-|LeviathNL [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:22<oh>no star trek references
18:22<oh>I'm still mourning the fact that it's all over
18:23<Gonozal_VIII>all over what how where?
18:23<@Bjarni>you mean that they will not start a new series?
18:23<Eddi|zuHause3>"all over" in "they are only producing a movie"
18:23<oh>never really managed to get into the movies
18:24<@Bjarni>now is your chance
18:24<oh>I want a new series, I'd even bloody well settle for a new season of enterprise :<
18:24<@Bjarni>insurrection is ok
18:24<oh>complete with that annoying fuckwit archer
18:25<@Bjarni>enterprise was a whole lot of special effects, but somehow it lacked what the other series was about
18:25<@Bjarni>I don't really like TOS either
18:25<Eddi|zuHause3>what were the other series about?
18:26<@Bjarni>Deep Space 9, The Next Generation, Voyager
18:26<Eddi|zuHause3>this ST XIII reprise in the alternative universe episode was great
18:26<oh>voyager took some getting into, then it was almost as great as tng
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: ha ha, very funny...
18:27<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Here is a picture where you can see trucks entering the station from both sides: :-)
18:28<oh>ANGEHALTEN somehow seems so severe
18:28<@Bjarni>DS9 is the best one, the TNG, then Voyager
18:28<@Bjarni>the animation... good thing it was only for one season
18:28<SmatZ>I like TNG and original StarTrek series the most...
18:29<SmatZ>didn't like DS9 at all :-x
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>yes jfb but do they also to that with a symmetrical station?
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>mine don't
18:29<fjb>I like the DS9 episode where they time travel back to the star treck episode with the tribbles. :-)
18:30<oh>you honestly like the original startrek?
18:30<Gonozal_VIII>hehe trouble with tribbles
18:30<Eddi|zuHause3>Voyager got really boring and repetitive towards the end...
18:30<@Bjarni>yeah it's awesome how they merged those two episodes
18:30<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Don't know, I just build that station and it worked out of the box. :-)
18:31|-|Entane [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:31<fjb>"That are Klingons? What happend?" "We dont talk about it" :-)
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18:31<Gonozal_VIII>i like it how they always choose the last stop with connected drive throughs and don't block everything that way
18:32<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause3> Voyager got really boring and repetitive towards the end... <--- same thing happened to enterprise and DS9 (we will fight those aliens...)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: they resolved that somewhere in the last enterprise series
18:32<@Bjarni>fjb: yeah that was a nice moment...
18:32<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: what was the explanation?
18:32<fjb>I didn't see that. How did they resolve it?
18:33<@Bjarni>I didn't notice :s
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: something about Kahn and the augments
18:33<Eddi|zuHause3>it was kinda insane how they combined like 3 different stories into that
18:33|-|Entane [] has joined #openttd
18:34<@Bjarni>err... wait a minute... isn't enterprise BEFORE TOS?
18:34<@Bjarni>so they tell about why they change in the future?
18:35|-|LeviathNL [] has joined #openttd
18:35<Eddi|zuHause3>actually they tell the cause of the change
18:35<@Bjarni>now I think I remember
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18:35<ln->someone said DS9's last seasons are ok, but unfortunately i live in a country where star trek is not shown on tv, at least not all seasons.
18:36<@Bjarni>some gene treatment against a disease changed their foreheads, right?
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>in enterprise the klingons look like in TNG, which upset a lot of fans
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>so they built in this episode about genetic manipulation
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>where they explain that the klingons will for several generations look more like humans
18:36<Eddi|zuHause3>and eventually turn back to their genetic roots
18:37|-|TrainzStoffe [] has joined #openttd
18:37<@Bjarni>ln-: it's about the war against the dominion and there are a whole lot of fights... it has the biggest fleets ever used in any star trek series or movie
18:37|-|stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
18:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i have not seen all DS9 seasons
18:37<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause3: nice way to divert limited budget restrictions ; )
18:37<Tefad>or cover
18:38<@Bjarni>combat and strategic movements are the main issues in the last two seasons
18:38<@Bjarni>in DS9
18:38<@Bjarni>well, maybe in enterprise too, but then the enemy is the Xindi
18:38<Eddi|zuHause3>the last episode i remember was that the kardassians took over DS9, and sisko left his baseball
18:39<@Bjarni>didn't they control DS9 for more than one episode?
18:39|-|XeryusTC [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:39<Eddi|zuHause3>that was the season final (cliffhanger) i assume
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18:40<Tefad>heh, my friend and i watched TNG last summer, and VOY this summer
18:40<Tefad>might do DS9 next summer
18:41[~]ln- is at TNG season 7
18:41<@Bjarni>you watch Star Trek during the summer and not during the winter when it's too cold to be outside?
18:41<Tefad>all good things...
18:41|-|XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
18:41<Tefad>Bjarni: well winter is a bit hectic for scheduling view time
18:41<Tefad>also TV is peaking
18:41<Tefad>(new shows)
18:41<Tefad>star trek fills in the re-run season
18:42<Tefad>winter involves much planning for a convention we run
18:42<@Bjarni>there is no need to watch TV at the moment here
18:42<oh>besides, winter is the time to be outside anyway
18:42<gono_ping_timeout>and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics
18:42<@Bjarni>everything sucks
18:42<@Bjarni>I turned it on today to verify that I didn't want to watch any of it
18:42|-|Greyscale [] has joined #openttd
18:43<oh>download some heroes or house
18:43<Tefad>i've yet to watch any heroes
18:43<gono_ping_timeout>house is cool :-)
18:43<Tefad>it took a while to get my friend into house
18:43<Eddi|zuHause3>heroes is great :)
18:43<oh>the misguided critics here all rated heroes at the bottom of the scale
18:43<@Bjarni><gono_ping_timeout> and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics <-- well... my house is too small to have locomotives in it so I have to go outside to get to them :s
18:43<Tefad>he tends to like soap-box hospital shows
18:43<@Bjarni>wtf is house?
18:44<@Bjarni>wtf is heroes?
18:44<Tefad>House, M.D.
18:44<oh>two shows you really should watch
18:44|-|Stoffe [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:44|-|TrainzStoffe changed nick to Stoffe
18:44<gono_ping_timeout>but then you're inside the locos, that counts as inside too :-)
18:44<Tefad>airs on Fox
18:44|-|gono_ping_timeout changed nick to Gonozal_VIII
18:44<Tefad>i watch grey's anatomy and now private practice
18:44|-|Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:44<Tefad>it's.. something to create a social event.. and to waste time : )
18:44<@Bjarni><gono_ping_timeout> but then you're inside the locos, that counts as inside too :-) <-- not really... I can be everywhere around them
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18:44<ln->wtf is this crap:
18:45<@Bjarni>including underneath and on top of them
18:45<Tefad>we've watched eureka and battlestar galactica
18:45<oh>girlfriend tried getting me into grey's but it's seems too drama-filled to me :<
18:45<Tefad>alias and lost are also winners
18:45<oh> :/
18:45<Tefad>.. eureka.. "A Town Called Eureka"
18:45<Gonozal_VIII>i just don't get lost
18:45<Tefad>to watch lost you have to start at the beginning
18:45<Tefad>and you have to like suspense.
18:46<+glx>season 2 was not that good
18:46<Tefad>and a little bit of x-files thrown in for fun.
18:46<Tefad>oh, and "the village"
18:46<Eddi|zuHause3><Bjarni> <gono_ping_timeout> and being outside is a thing for rl fanatics <-- well... my house is too small to have locomotives in it so I have to go outside to get to them :s <- you either need to make your house bigger or the locomotives smaller
18:46<Tefad>but in reverse
18:47<oh>when I watch lost I get the feeling I'm watching the rerun of last night's show
18:47|-|guru3 [~guru3@2002:5ae3:8196:1::1] has joined #openttd
18:47<oh>they spend half the episodes reiterating :/
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>the village in reverse :S
18:48<@Bjarni>I think I have a link that beat's ln-'s when it comes to being a geek
18:48<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: sounds about right.
18:48|-|Wezz6400 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:48<Gonozal_VIII>yes it does to you because you said that but i can't imagine what the village in reverse would be
18:49<Tefad>the people in the village? know they're in "the village"
18:49<Tefad>the outsiders are the clueless ones
18:49<ln->Bjarni: the "photos" at the page i linked are clearly 3D models rendered.
18:49<Tefad>and there are some other twists.
18:49<@Bjarni>but my link is for real
18:50|-|Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
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18:51<@Bjarni>press play on tape is kind of a weird collection of CS students, but somehow the idea is cool
18:51<fjb>Bjarni should kick himself for posting YouTube links...
18:52|-|fjb kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [you shouldn't tell me what to do to myself]
18:52|-|fjb [] has joined #openttd
18:52<@Bjarni>besides I already removed that rule once
18:59<Eddi|zuHause3>i guess i am not geek enough to know "cannon fodder"
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18:59<Tefad>no, you're not.
18:59<Tefad>yay 80's
18:59<Tefad>or early 90's
19:00<Tefad>i forget
19:00<Eddi|zuHause3>in the early 90s i played monkey island
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>scorched earth :-)
19:01<Tefad>don't forget gorilla
19:01[~]fjb played empire
19:01<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, those two i played, too
19:01<Eddi|zuHause3>the first game i remember was sokoban
19:02<oh>what's that game where you travel around some island and solve puzzles?
19:02<Tefad>i remember oregon trail and number munchers
19:02<Eddi|zuHause3>oh: that's monkey island
19:02|-|Greyscale [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, several games play on islands
19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>like i once played kings quest II
19:03<Tefad>wp gapper
19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>but i never got through
19:03<oh>I don't think monkey island is what I used to play though :/
19:03<Tefad>it's like qix but with a fixed grid
19:04<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you have to come up with a more specific description than "island and puzzles" :p
19:04<oh>damn, I cant go to bed till I've got the name ;<
19:04<Eddi|zuHause3>because that fits like 90% of games of that genre
19:04<oh>my early 90's memories arent that solid ;P
19:05<Gonozal_VIII> <-- monkey island :-) but german...
19:07<Sacro>BAN HIM!
19:08<oh>there it is!
19:08<SmatZ>yes, Dr.Brain, nice game
19:08<oh>so many hours wasted!
19:08<Sacro><oh> there it is! <-- haha, just what i thought
19:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think i know that one
19:14<Sacro>shall i purchase a Dec MicroVax
19:15<oh>found a download for dr. brain
19:15<oh>dosbox here I come <3
19:16<fjb>Telling in public that you are violating some copyright is really intelligent...
19:16<Sacro>fjb: cough... channelname?
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>what does the channelname have to do with the copyright of some old game?
19:17<Sacro>are you being sarcastic?
19:18<exe>everyone uses pirated ttd?
19:18[~]fjb has an offical ttd licence.
19:18<Gonozal_VIII>i have a cd :-)
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19:20<Sacro>ooh an A3 Wacom tablet
19:21<fjb>Buy it.
19:21<Sacro>£500 :(
19:23<fjb>New or used? You can get one cheap on eBay, if you are lucky.
19:23<Gonozal_VIII>but i wonder why nobody replaces the missing parts to make openttd a fully free game
19:23<Sacro>err new
19:24<ln->Gonozal_VIII: because it would be one hell of a job even for a talented artist.
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>is it that much?
19:24<oh>fjb: it's abandonware
19:24<ln->oh: there's no such thing as abandonware.
19:24<Sacro>oh: no such thing
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>abandonware doesn't mean anything for copyright
19:24<oh>and in any case not criminalized here
19:25<fjb>There is no such think as abandomware.
19:25|-|Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:25<ln->Gonozal_VIII: do you know how many sprites do the original data files contain?
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>no idea
19:26<@Belugas>roughtly 5000
19:27<oh>isn't that what newgfx is for anyway?
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19:27<Gonozal_VIII>that's a lot... but most of them should be easy to draw or have only small differences to other sprites
19:27<@Belugas>or exactly 4791 for the main file
19:28<@Belugas>[19:29] <oh> isn't that what newgfx is for anyway? <--- that's newgrf, and no, the purpose of newgrf is not to replace original grf, but to add some more
19:29<@Belugas>could be, ln-
19:31<oh>Belugas: sure, but isn't the plan to have the newgfx project's 32bpp art replace the old, copyrighted stuff?
19:31<SmatZ>ever tried compiling openttd with gcc-4.3.0 preview? it will need some -Wno-xxx changes, or a lot of code changes :-x
19:32<ln->Gonozal_VIII: take a look:
19:32<SmatZ>hmm well, it is not that bad :)
19:35<oh>@sprite 3907, haven't seen that in ages :)
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19:36<ln->the file goes away in 20 seconds
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19:39<Gonozal_VIII>for most of those sprites there are very good looking newgrf that replace them
19:40<fjb>Now I know why nobody is playing Toyland...
19:40<@Bjarni>I just read the greatest thing about daylight saving hour ever
19:40<@Bjarni>Japan has it... in two cities only
19:40<@Bjarni>makes you wonder about travelling between cities
19:42<fjb>Just travel only between that two cities.
19:42<geoff_k_>its supposed to save daylight i believe but it always gets dark quicker, if not already by time i get out of bed
19:42<geoff_k_>not sure the sun comes up here anyway lately
19:43<geoff_k_>been almost dark at midday a few times
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19:43<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't work for a normal day only for those weird people that wake up in the middle of the night
19:44<geoff_k_>i tihnk its just done here to see who pays attention its a trick
19:44<@Belugas>oh, eventually, yes. but i tough you were confusing newgrf with newgfx, sorry
19:46<geoff_k_>i went shop hour early a few weeks back not because i forgot the clocks had changed but because i looked at time on my mobile which had the wrong time still :)
19:46<Tefad>phone didn't know the timezone laws?
19:47<geoff_k_>mine don;t seem to but then i never bother with it, spents most its time with a flat battery its more peaceful that way
19:47<Tefad>my phone syncs to something close to the official US time
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>mine syncs to a time when phones didn't sync themselves
19:49<Tefad>jan 1 1980?
19:52<geoff_k_>the one thing i hate about phones is peopel who dont get to the point and then go away, they just want to talk and tell their whole days events
19:52<geoff_k_>as if i would be really interested
19:52<Gonozal_VIII>why is there a 12:30 am but no 24:30
19:54<ln->i have a question
19:55<geoff_k_>time can be what it wants i have enough trouble remembering what year it is and who is priminister sometimes
19:55<geoff_k_>i've been known to fail on both questions
19:56<Gonozal_VIII>good for you ln, want to share it with us?
19:57<geoff_k_>i actualy failed a job interview on the year i asked the guy what date was i said ... erm.. oh what year
19:57<ln->yes, i just want everyone's attention first.
19:57<ln->the question: can one use multiple CPUs under DOS?
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19:57<Tefad>i don't think so.
19:58<Tefad>highly unlikely without a crazy kernel.
19:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11472 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Give enuma for both the widget numbers and the used smallmap currently used type
19:59<ln->Tefad: but the DOS itself doesn't need to know about it, because a program that is started gets full control of the whole computer.
19:59<Tefad>in that case yes, you can run a dos program that loads linux and make use of multiple CPUs.
19:59|-|RamboRonny [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:59<Tefad>what you do is probably not going to be "DOS"
19:59<ln->noooo, not linux.
19:59<Tefad>i doubt you'd be able to communicate back to dos functions easily
20:00<Tefad>dos is not a multithreaded OS for one
20:00<Tefad>even win9x doesn't support multiple CPus
20:00<ln->no, but that doesn't mean one's own application couldn't multithread.
20:01<Tefad>if your application uses the OS ...
20:01<Tefad>the OS provides the threads
20:01<Tefad>DOS doesn't provide threads
20:01<Tefad>you'd essentially be writing an OS for your program
20:01<ln->true, that's why the application itself has to implement threads.
20:02<ln->one can achieve thread-like behavior e.g. with active objects.
20:02<Tefad>DOS uses interrupts to simulated multitasking
20:04<ln->does using multiple CPUs imply using protected mode?
20:04<Tefad>i've never really done low level programming on a PC
20:05<ln->me neither
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20:05<Tefad>i would imagine you'd need some way of keeping one CPU from writing to data belonging to the other CPU
20:05<Tefad>(process based)
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>why do you want to use multiple cpus in dos anyways?
20:05<Tefad>or something goofy.
20:06<Tefad>dos is lightweight, boots in mere milliseconds on modern hardware.
20:06<Tefad>however it's rather limited ; )
20:06<Gonozal_VIII>openttd server running dos?
20:07<ln->Gonozal_VIII: obviously one's brand new 8-core is not fully taken advantage of if only one cpu is utilized.
20:07<Tefad>why would you run dos on it
20:07<Gonozal_VIII>8 cores... nice
20:07<ln->no, i don'
20:07<Tefad>run linux on it with 8 dosboxes or something..
20:07<Tefad>you're also not using all 64bits
20:08<ln->i don't have a 8-core machine yet, not even 2-core, but that's not very far away in the future when one can buy such with sensible amount of money.
20:08<Tefad>there's barely any support for 32bit in dos, let alone 64bit
20:08<Tefad>why would you need to run DOS on the hardware
20:08<ln->because it's possible.
20:08<Tefad>i can't think of any dos programs (aside from weird hardware-specific ones) that i /need/ to run on the hardware
20:09<Tefad>dosbox or qemu is plenty fast
20:09<ln->ain't it great that the state-of-the-art hardware still probably runs MS-DOS 1.0?
20:09<Tefad>ln-: not really. it prevents us from moving very far
20:09<Tefad>we have to bootstrap from an environment capable of running decades old software
20:10<ln->there was and is the more advanced PowerPC, of course.
20:10<Tefad>it's like a rube goldberg machine
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>there can be too much bachwards compability
20:10<ln->as well as e.g. UltraSPARC.
20:10<Tefad>those platforms aren't very uniform, and generally have a single OS associated with a given manufacturer
20:10<Tefad>(or linux)
20:11<Sacro><3 linus
20:11<ln->(or *bsd)
20:11<Tefad>with the PC you can run all sorts of crap and it evolved without abrupt changes because there are many many manufacturers involved
20:12<fjb>DOS doesn't use multiple CPUs. Your application can ofcourse, but only if it switches to protected mode. But you are not able to use any features of DOS then. You have even to provide your own file system.
20:12<Tefad>for example i can't install Mac System 6 on a current Mac
20:12<Tefad>fjb: so essentially he has to write his own OS.
20:12<fjb>Tefad: yes.
20:13<ln->fjb: is this implication "multiple cpus -> protected mode" a fact?
20:13<Tefad>and if the program intends to ever return control back to DOS (or able to allow interrupts) he has to be very careful when programming, eh?
20:13<Gonozal_VIII>run multiple instances of dos :D
20:13<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: that'd require careful trickery
20:14<Tefad>and probably emulation of certain things
20:14<fjb>But what would you do with multiple kernels when you only have 640k ram?
20:14<Tefad>i think desqview would be somewhere to start
20:14<Tefad>fjb ^
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>640k ram on a 8 core hardware?
20:14<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: that's all DOS really sees
20:14<Tefad>maybe 1MB
20:15<Tefad>himem is an addon.
20:15<ln->hmmm, doesn't x86 have support for running stuff on a virtual 8088?
20:15<Tefad>ln-: look up desqview
20:15<ln->had it once, it messed up my config.sys and autoexec.bat
20:15<ln->and i doubt it supports multiple cpus either.
20:15<fjb>DOS boots fast, but everything else is limited to 640k or becomes dead slow because it has to push everything through a small memory window. And modeswitching is also dead slow.
20:16<Tefad>oh also dos is very compact.
20:16<Tefad>however you'd probably be better off using QNX or something ; )
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>so dos apps could use the cpu cache as ram?^^
20:17<fjb>80368 inventet a mode with virtual 8086s. But I don't know if that survived to modern cpus.
20:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11473 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Replace two more instances of widget/smalltype numbers by enum(-a) values
20:17<Tefad>fjb: isn't that what makes WoW possible? or am i on crack
20:17<Tefad>windows' dos console
20:18<fjb>Hm, maybe, don't know that much about the internals of windows.
20:18<Tefad>fjb: i think all features from 8086 are carried on into modern CPUs unless the CPU is a special edition
20:18<Tefad>(like some 386s that removed real mode)
20:18<fjb>Date 20 at least is...
20:18<fjb>Gate not date
20:19<Tefad>is that the turbo thing?
20:19<Tefad>maybe i'm confusing stuff.
20:19<Tefad>or FPU
20:19[~]ln- wants Core 2 SX
20:19<fjb>It is a switch that enables dos to use 64k more adress space in real mode.
20:21<Tefad>how.. quaint
20:21<SmatZ>Tefad: some 386 don't support RM?
20:21<Tefad>SmatZ: one moment. they're used in embedded systems. not PCs
20:22<ln->i guess it's too much to expect that there's 64-bit support in real mode with current cpus...
20:22<SmatZ>Tefad: strange :)
20:22<SmatZ>fjb: yup :) and on top of that, it allows you to acces every odd megabyte of memory :)
20:23<Tefad>actually it was the 80376, my bad. the 80386EX replaced it (and retains real mode apparently)
20:24<fjb>Amd64 doesn't have the virtual 8086 mode anymore, not even in compatibility mode.
20:24<Tefad>don't let number fool you with sequence, the 80376 was a modified 80386SX.
20:24<Tefad>fjb: really?
20:24<Tefad>what does dosemu use
20:25<SmatZ>Tefad: hmm really strange that the investment into chip redesign with removing RM is worth it :)
20:25<fjb>Real mode is only 16 bit.
20:25<Tefad>fjb: are you sure the chip doesn't have it, or the mode doesn't allow use it?
20:25<SmatZ>not to be misunderstood, when running 32bit OS, the v86 mode is available
20:25<Tefad>long mode doesn't allow v8086
20:25<fjb>Don't know what it uses then. Kind of an emulation I guess.
20:26<fjb>Compatibility mode is the 32bit mode of Amd64.
20:26<SmatZ>Tefad: the task types of V86 are invalid in long mode / compatibility mode
20:27<SmatZ>hmm I think "legacy mode" = 16 or 32bit mode, "long mode" = 64bit mode, "compatibility mode" = running 32bit app under 64bit OS
20:27<Tefad>i think that's correct
20:27<fjb>Is the so called "dos box" still a real dos mode? Or is it just a command shell for XP?
20:28<Tefad>fjb: it's v86
20:28<SmatZ>dosbox is an emulator
20:28<SmatZ>dosemu is running v86
20:28<Tefad>SmatZ: not "dosbox"
20:28<Tefad>"dos box"
20:28<SmatZ>sorry :)
20:28<Tefad>fjb: "dos box" was never real mode
20:28<Tefad>it was always v86
20:28<Tefad>which is why 64bit windows dosn't have a dos box
20:28<fjb>Ok, I meant that.
20:28<Tefad>or support for 16bit apps
20:29<fjb>But anyway, there is no use of DOS anymore on modern CPUs.
20:29<Tefad>some win95 installers, while containing actual 32bit software, were 16bit.
20:29<Tefad>fjb: well, any use that makes sense
20:29<Tefad>if you have a PC bios, you still have the foundation of DOS
20:30<Tefad>i don't think any modern OSs make much use of bios calls
20:30<SmatZ>Tefad: depends what you call 'modern', but BIOSes are used for power management
20:31<fjb>Modern systems have two kinds of bios, 16bit and 32bit.
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20:32<Tefad>i've never played around much with the 32bit part
20:32<fjb>Any modern OS uses the 32bit parts of the bios.
20:32<Tefad>how does EFI fit into this
20:33<SmatZ>hmm too long time since I read any text about Itanium :-x
20:34<Tefad>unreal mode
20:34<Tefad>EFI is a new kind of firmware
20:35<Tefad>used on Macs i think
20:35<Tefad>(the devkit macs had pc-bios btw)
20:36<Tefad>unreal mode is a subset of real mode allowing for >1MB memory access
20:36<fjb>Don't know the acronym EFI, there are too many 3 letter acronyms. Macs have a new kind of bios. Maybe it gets used on more platforms in future.
20:36<Rotonen>wiki it
20:36<Tefad>extensible firmware interface
20:37<Tefad>it's a pre-bios kind of thing
20:37<Tefad>er no
20:37<Tefad>n/m IGGNORRREEE MEEEE </venture bros>
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20:38<SmatZ>also, why are you talking about EFI and 'unreal mode' together?
20:38<Tefad>no idea
20:38<SmatZ> EFI and Itaniums...
20:38<Tefad>my brain works in mysterious ways : D
20:39<Tefad>the EFI stuff can fall out, none here seems to know how it works ; )
20:40<Tefad>EFI is similar to openfirmware
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20:41<SmatZ>I got a printed documentation for Itaniums... I was rather anhusiast about it, when it was new :) I will look into it for some information
20:41<SmatZ>dated "August 2000"
20:41<SmatZ>hmm electronic documents allow faster searching
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20:43<fjb>Itaniums are nice, when you have an OS for them. But they are too power hungry for my home.
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20:46<Tefad>don't they also have crappy performance for dollar
20:49<Tefad>haha, intel developed a software emulator faster than the hardware emulator for running x86 code on itaniums
20:50<fjb>Yes, but that is not astonishing.
20:51<fjb>And the performance is not that crappy.
20:52<Tefad>i think the product was well overhyped
20:52<Tefad>just like the p4
20:53<Tefad>i'm no intel-basher.. i have no x86 that isn't intel (well i think i own a k6-2 chip, but it's not installed anywhere). six p4's
20:53<Tefad>mostly handed down to me
20:54<SmatZ>shame on you :-p
20:54<Rotonen>netburst was an unique concept
20:54<Rotonen>with or without proper english
20:55<fjb>And it is good that is was unique and stays unique. That happens when marketing dictates the development.
20:55<Tefad>i have a sparc and an alpha
20:55<Tefad>neither will boot an OS
20:56<fjb>Why don't they?
20:56<Tefad>i wish i knew
20:57<Tefad>the alpha will post, sort of
20:57<Tefad>alphastations are weird creatures
20:57<Tefad>er it's an personal workstation
20:57<Tefad>an? bah. 600MHz iirc
20:58<Tefad>it emulates x86 to interface with the graphics BIOS (PC bios, but card was only made for DEC.. go figure)
20:58<fjb>Hm, I never owned an Alpha.
20:59<Tefad>two double-height sticks of 512MB DIMMs
20:59<Tefad>with ECC
20:59<Tefad>buffered too i think
21:00<Tefad>ram sticks are ginormous ; )
21:00<Tefad>they're taller than half their length.
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21:05<fjb>Just looking at the german phorum I wonder why users of TTDP and OpenTTD always try to vage war on each other.
21:06<SmatZ>really, do they?
21:06|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
21:06<fjb>Sacro: Thank you, my english is not the best.
21:07<Gonozal_VIII>why what's happening there? i don't read the german forum
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21:09<fjb>Some OpenTTD users claim that TTDP is already dead and nobody uses it anymore. Some TTDP users clain that OpenTTD 0.6 brings nothing new and that everything is stolen from TTDP. etc...
21:09<Sacro>fjb: *English
21:11[~]Sacro goes to bed
21:12<Gonozal_VIII>well.. i think it would be better to have only one game of that type and all programmers work on that but both exist, both have some things in which they are better than the other and people that prefer that, so you can't just discontinue one of them
21:15<fjb>I don't think it would be better to have only one of them. As you say both have their strong and their weak points. And it looks like the development teams are working more with each other than against each other.
21:29<fjb>I should go to bed. Good night.
21:29<Gonozal_VIII>good night
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21:39<Gonozal_VIII>woa where does that one way road switch come from
21:39<Gonozal_VIII>didn't notice that before
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21:48<Gonozal_VIII>is there some kind of trick to do transfer in both directions?
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22:10<Gonozal_VIII>stupid passengers...
22:30<ln->hmm, what an interesting file:
22:30<ln->NOTICE %s :TSUNAMI <target> <secs> = Special packeter that wont be blocke
22:30<ln->d by most firewalls
22:30<ln->NOTICE %s :PAN <target> <port> <secs> = An advanced syn flooder that will ki
22:30<ln->ll most network drivers
22:30<ln->NOTICE %s :UDP <target> <port> <secs> = A udp flooder
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23:27<Gekz>ln-: what's that
23:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11474 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt smallmap_gui.cpp):
23:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: Allow to resize on creation the smallmap gui in order to show all the types industry available.
23:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: Allow to enable/disable individually or all at once, the industries shown on small map.
23:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: This will permit to easily find those that are of some interest for the player.
23:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Heavily based on gule's patch
23:38<Gonozal_VIII>Feature: Allow to resize on creation the smallmap gui in order to show all the types industry available <-- that's new to me, nice.. and the rest is obviously cool
23:38<@Belugas>gule did a good job
23:38<@Belugas>i've just cleaned it up
23:39<@Belugas>going to sleep
23:39<Gonozal_VIII>good night
---Logclosed Mon Nov 19 00:00:32 2007