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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-19

---Logopened Mon Nov 19 00:00:32 2007
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00:09<mikk36|work>mornin' :)
00:11|-|goddamnit changed nick to De_Ghost
00:12<mikk36|work>bad mood ? :P
00:12<Gonozal_VIII>bah... don't say morning before i even started sleeping
00:13<De_Ghost>good night
00:13<De_Ghost>good night!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:13<mikk36|work>Gonozal_VIII, i just arrived at work, 7:13 here :)
00:13<Gonozal_VIII>6:13 here...
00:14<Gonozal_VIII>where is it 7? russia?
00:14<mikk36|work>russia is 8 already
00:15<Gonozal_VIII>i thought estonia had cet
00:15<mikk36|work>you're +1 in austria, remember ? :P
00:15<mikk36|work>eet here :)
00:16<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know the time zones that well but i know that they are bent around very much
00:16<mikk36|work>well, not that much here in europe though
00:17<Gonozal_VIII>i think there should be one between france and germany but isn't
00:17<mikk36|work>one more between them ?
00:18<mikk36|work>don't see a point actually
00:18<mikk36|work>i really don't like those half-hour zones
00:19<Gonozal_VIII>no not half hour
00:19<mikk36|work>and to move germany to +2 would be a bit nonsense i think
00:20<mikk36|work>well, then :P
00:20<mikk36|work>i would have categorized france as UTC though :P
00:20<mikk36|work>if it was up to me
00:20<mikk36|work>also spain
00:22<Gonozal_VIII>as i said... it should be between germany and france
00:22<mikk36|work>that map doesn't show estonia as +2
00:22<mikk36|work>shows as +3
00:23<mikk36|work>here's a better one
00:23<mikk36|work>portugal was also wrong there
00:28<Gonozal_VIII>ah... stupid timezones.. they should use the same time everywhere, doesn't matter when the sun rises or whatever
00:28<Tefad_>computers don't care
00:29<Tefad_>most of them store time as seconds elapsed since the UNIX Epoch
00:29<Gonozal_VIII>yes... just use the unix timecode
00:29<mikk36|work>how does motherboard store it ? :P
00:29<De_Ghost>are you black?
00:29<mikk36|work>De_Ghost, are you stupid ?
00:30<Tefad_>motherboards don't carry timezone information that i know of
00:30<mikk36|work>wiki estonia from google :)
00:30<Tefad_>it's up to the OS to track timezone
00:30<Tefad_>many store time in UTC
00:30<Tefad_>windows though, likes to use localtime.
00:30<De_Ghost>i though mobo just store A time
00:31<Tefad_>right, without timezone.
00:31<De_Ghost>like a 24 hr clock
00:31<Tefad_>they have date too
00:31<De_Ghost>wait it have date
00:31<De_Ghost>been a while since i had to hit bios :)
00:31<mikk36|work>well, unix timecode doesn't store zone either
00:31<De_Ghost>stupid school...
00:31<Tefad_>mikk36|work: yes it does
00:31<Tefad_>UTC or GMT depending on application i think.
00:31<Tefad_>(one has leapseconds, one doesn't)
00:32<mikk36|work>UTC is GMT
00:32<mikk36|work>they are the same
00:32<Tefad_>no. leap seconds.
00:33<Tefad_>i think UT1 and GMT are the same
00:35<Tefad_> actually i think they're all three different. : x
00:36<Gonozal_VIII>[06:29:43] De_Ghost: estonia/ [06:29:46] De_Ghost: are you black? <-- i still don't get that question
00:36<Gonozal_VIII>what does the one have to do with the other :S
00:39<mikk36|work>De_Ghost, where do/did you think estonia is ?
00:45<Tefad_>In 1928 the term Universal Time was adopted internationally as a more precise term than Greenwich Mean Time, because the GMT could refer to either an astronomical day starting at noon or a civil day starting at midnight. However, the term Greenwich Mean Time persists in common usage to this day in reference to civil timekeeping.
00:45<Tefad_>we were both wrong : x
00:46<Gonozal_VIII>oh.. didn't know that days could start at noon
00:48<Tefad_>UTC is an approximation of UT1 that can vary by up to 900ms and has occasional leap seconds.
00:49<Tefad_>UT1 seems to be the definitive continuous time.
00:50<Tefad_>3ms uncertainty per day due to variations in earth's rotation
00:50<Tefad_>the seconds are slightly different from SI units
00:50<Gonozal_VIII>that's not good...
00:50<Tefad_>SI is defined by atomic decay.. never changing (unless there's something about the universe we don't know)
00:51<Gonozal_VIII>many definitions base on seconds
00:51<Tefad_>SI is definitive for the term second.
00:51<mikk36|work>so.. how long is a second then ? :P
00:51<Tefad_>UT1 defines second to be 86400 units in one day.
00:51<mikk36|work>which doesn't ?
00:52<Tefad_>length of a day varies (rotation variations)
00:52<Tefad_>SI seconds are constant.
00:52<Gonozal_VIII>seems to be very unpractical to have variable seconds
00:52<Tefad_>the earth is gradually slowing down due to tidal acceleration of the moon
00:53<Tefad_>Gonozal_VIII: that's why SI defined it in terms of atomic decay.
00:53<Gonozal_VIII>really decay? decay is kind of random...
00:54<Rotonen>AFAIK seconds are defined by a stable oscillation
00:54<Rotonen>please do wiki your facts beforehand
00:54<Tefad_>at some point in the distant future we'll have to either redefine the second, or add leap second(s) along with leap years or something.
00:54<Rotonen>leap years work just fine
00:55<Gonozal_VIII>for people leap seconds don't matter, nobody will notice that and for electronic devices there are the atomic clocks that distribute the right time :-)
00:56<Tefad_>Gonozal_VIII: yeah, but if you look at a clock and see 23:59:60 you'll probably scratch your head.
00:56<Gonozal_VIII>but it's already over before your hand reaches your head ;-)
00:57<Rotonen>also keeping everything in sync would just require too much extra effort in a variable system
00:57<Gonozal_VIII>nah... variable seconds suck
00:57<Gonozal_VIII>but leap seconds once a year or something are not a problem
00:58<Rotonen>why not just settle with the current leap year system?
00:59<Gonozal_VIII>you mean like add another rule where every 2000th year is not a leap year or something?
00:59<Tefad_>because say.. 10000 years from now, the day will have 86401 seconds in it?
00:59<Tefad_>you just want to have leapseconds wait for ~86400 of accumulation?
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00:59<Tefad_>then do them all in a day
01:00<Rotonen>check your facts on the timescale :)
01:01<Rotonen>imho our current system will outlive the habitability of our biosphere
01:01<Tefad_>10000 years was a number i pull from my arse
01:01<Rotonen>indeed, it is a very short time for the change in question to occur
01:03<Gonozal_VIII>how long is your estimated rest-habitability of this biosphere?
01:03<Tefad_>well for the record our day is already 86400.002 seconds long
01:04<Tefad_>from the 86400 established in 1820.
01:04<Tefad_>i was only off by an order of magnitude : )
01:04<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think they could calculate that with the same accuracy back then
01:05<Tefad_>whatever it was, is now 2ms longer.
01:05<Gonozal_VIII>which is less than a second per year
01:05<Tefad_>in 89500 years the length of a day will be approximately 86401 seconds.
01:06<mikk36|work>that so matters :P
01:06<Gonozal_VIII>i can't live with that... i guess i have to kill myself in 89500 years
01:06<Tefad_>because if i set a device to trigger exactly 89500 years from now, it'll be off by a second!
01:06<Tefad_>(har har har)
01:07<Tefad_>actually it'd probably be non functional by that time.. and it would be off by more than a second.
01:07<mikk36|work>because of different electrical interferences :)
01:07<Tefad_>in 90k years from now, people will have a leap second PER DAY.
01:08<mikk36|work>365 seconds a yead
01:08<mikk36|work>that's.. 6 minutes
01:08<Tefad_>every 236 years they have an extra leap day.
01:08<Rotonen>i think an extra 365 seconds at new years which belong to no year would be cool
01:08<Rotonen>but would probably cause havoc to daily rythm on the long run :)
01:09<Tefad_>anyway this is all quite trivial : D
01:09<hylje>not to mention computer systems
01:09<Rotonen>not really a problem for our generation to solve
01:09<mikk36|work>i'll just keep syncing my clocks :)
01:09<Gonozal_VIII>to accumulate them to a whole day you would have to accept noon in the middle of the night and so on
01:09<Tefad_>Rotonen: the incans or myans or whatever used lunar calandar and they believed the short month of the year was extremely unlucky.
01:10<Rotonen>also afaik the slowing down of the rotation was not linear, don't really have the insight to say how it will depend on time
01:10<Tefad_>Gonozal_VIII: this is why we need to use UTC globally.
01:10<Tefad_>Rotonen: agreed.. like i said this is all quite trivial ; )
01:12<Tefad_>Gonozal_VIII: and good point.
01:12<Tefad_>leap seconds will matter.. quite a few years from now.
01:14<Tefad_>by then maybe we'll be extinct.. our decendant species will have already solved the variable second problem (or has a completely different concept of time.. maybe metric time will be used.. heh who knows)
01:15<Gonozal_VIII>maybe by then only a minority of our species still is on this planet so nobody cares about it's rotation anymore
01:18<mikk36|work>Gonozal_VIII, just go sleeping already :P
01:20<Gonozal_VIII>but then i would have to stop thinking about building a giant ring that rotates around the sun and people live on the sunny side with a roof made out of half transparent solar panels that protect them from the sun and produce energy
01:21<mikk36|work>is that so bad then ?
01:21<Gonozal_VIII>not really^^
01:22<Gonozal_VIII>good night then
01:22<mikk36|work>good night :)
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01:24<Tefad_>or we'll be cosmic dust as an intergalactic bypass occupies what used to be our planet's orbit.
01:27<mikk36|work>yeah, lol
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05:04<MarkSlap>Shower, then sleep. Ciao :)
05:09<MarkSlap>Gosh, I went to sleep in front of the computer, sitting. Naah, nighty then :p
05:34<init>Any dev available?
05:35|-|init changed nick to init100
05:35<Rubidium>at least not now
05:38<Rubidium>but the real question is whether you really need a developer to answer your question (I'm assuming you have some question for them)
05:40<init100>Yeah, but I should maybe read the dev docs first...:)
05:42<dihedral>why not ask your question? if you need to read the dev docs first, someone is bound to tell you just that :-D
05:43<init100>I'm trying to split the realistic acceleration patch (the one in the trunk) into several settings, as curve and hill handling isn't really related to acceleration.
05:43<init100>But I get an invalid chunk when trying to load a savegame. I just found out that there is documentation about this in the Wiki.
05:45<dihedral>well then :-P
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06:00<init100>Okay, now it works, albeit with one flaw. I haven't figured out how to enlarge the patches window yet, which means that the last two options in the Vehicles section is now pushed outside the window.
06:00<init100>And this isn't mentioned in the "Add patch" section of the Wiki
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06:19<init100>Windows are strange. I enlarged the patches window, but the background color still only took up the previous amount of space.
06:20<init100>Ahh, I have to resize the panel too...
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06:26<Rubidium>the patch option window need to be completely rewritten as it is going to be too big on small screens anyway
06:26<init100>Sounds reasonable
06:31<init100>One idea that could make the pages smaller is o have sub-categories in each patch category. One could e.g. have General, YAPF, Realism and Service sub-categories on the vehicle page.
06:33<init100>If possible, the game should also compute the window and panel size of the patches window from the options in the window, so that patch developers wouldn't have to modify sizes manually. Just a thought.
06:35<Rubidium>and add some scrollbars for small screens and there you've got the requirements for the rewritten patch option window.
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06:35<init100>Exactly :)
06:36<dihedral>Rubidium: could it be of interest to have 2 more autoexecuted script files?
06:36<dihedral>1 on the yearly look, and another for the client, <host>_<port>.scr
06:37<dihedral>so a client can set nicks or rcon aliases according to the server one joins?
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06:54<skidd13_work>Hi folks
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 19 07:32:55 2007
---Logopened Mon Nov 19 07:32:57 2007
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07:32|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 78 |-| +op [4] |-| +voice [2] |-| normalnych [72]
07:34|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 87 sekundy
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08:50<geoff_k_>is it possible to turn off breakdowns on a dedicated once its running?
08:50<geoff_k_>cant seem to find a setting for it
08:50<geoff_k_>didn't think so thanks
08:50<dihedral>its in the difficulty setting
08:51<dihedral>if you search for 'openttd.cfg' you'll get some detailed info
08:51<geoff_k_>yeah unfortunately game is started i don;t mind its on low
08:51<geoff_k_>i was asked to change it but too late now
08:57<dihedral>pause the game, save it, load it in single player, change the setting, save it, load it on the dedicated server
09:08<Gonozal_VIII>is there no way to keep transferred cargo from entering a vehicle of the same line it just came from?
09:08<Gonozal_VIII>for two way transfer
09:08<dihedral>transfer + leave empty (unload)
09:09<De_Ghost>u need a diffrent platform
09:10<+glx>station not platform
09:10<Gonozal_VIII>not only platform, a whole different station for in and out..
09:11<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't make sense that it takes the same vehicle again unless it's got transfer and take cargo as order
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10:30<spark_>is option "fixed order" or "shared orders" available yet ?
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10:45<spark_>anybody here ??
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10:50<@Bjarni>I totally agree
10:51<@Bjarni>the question is... do I agree to whatever you replied to? :)
10:51<dihedral>16:45 < spark_> anybody here ??
10:51<@Bjarni>then the answer is no
10:51<@Bjarni>I wasn't here when he asked that
10:53<spark_>how can i destroy radio transmitter in openttd ?
10:53<@Bjarni>you can't
10:53<@Bjarni>that's why they are listed as "unremovable objects"
10:53<@Bjarni>well I think you can if you cheat from the cheat menu
10:53<spark_>hm, ok then
10:53<@Bjarni>but cheating is for cheaters
10:54<@Bjarni>and it will be saved that you cheated and it doesn't work in multiplayer
10:54<dihedral>16:53 <@Bjarni> but cheating is for cheaters
10:54<@Bjarni>I knew you would like that one ;)
10:54<dihedral>spark_: go around, under or dont
10:55<spark_>i need to build a station there
10:55<hylje>transmitters are the only way to keep high hills high
10:56<hylje>in the absence of bedrock
10:58<@Bjarni>Hannah Baberra didn't give us permission to use Bedrock... they claimed to need it for Viva Rock Vegas or something
10:58<@Bjarni>that's why it's not in the game
10:59<hylje>ha ha that's funny, laugh everyone!
10:59[~]dihedral laughs
11:00<@Bjarni>dihedral didn't say lol
11:00<@Bjarni>something is wrong
11:00<dihedral>lol <-- that's for Bjarni
11:01<dihedral>happy now?
11:02<@Bjarni>you didn't do it before the timeout
11:02<@Bjarni>now I have to figure out another joke to get this working
11:03<dihedral>you can tell me what's 'wrong' with FS1363 (code wise) - note there is a v5 :-P
11:04[~]spark_ problem solved
11:04[~]dihedral beleives spark_ ededted the scenario or cheated
11:04<@Bjarni>dihedral: well... I have to spend time reading the code
11:05<@Bjarni>and time is money
11:05<@Bjarni>so you have to compensate me for my loss by reading this file
11:05<dihedral>and where would the file be?
11:05<@Bjarni>either that or accept that I don't really have time or energy to read a whole new diff (since I never read it)
11:05<spark_>i didn't
11:06<spark_>i just added another station :)
11:06<dihedral>Bjarni: i'll compensate you by doing some coding you really dong feel like doing, but note that you also need to take my limited c/c++ knowledge into account
11:06<@Bjarni>he decided to remove a building so the station could be placed on the tile next to the transmitter
11:06<@Bjarni>but now the town will no longer accept goods :P
11:06<hylje>ha ha
11:07<dihedral>Bjarni: that is crediting him too much :-P
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11:07<dihedral>Bjarni: what say you to the compensation idea?
11:08<@Bjarni>I'm not sure that I want to get code from a guy who writes "dong" by mistake
11:08<@Bjarni>I fear that the code might stink
11:08<dihedral>you can decide that by looking at the diff
11:09<@Bjarni>more seriously... I'm supposed to do something else
11:09<dihedral>i'm happy to help :-)
11:09<dihedral>this evening
11:09<@Bjarni>maybe I should just hide IRC so I can get some work done
11:10<dihedral>oh - c'mon
11:10<dihedral>it's a small diff
11:10<@Bjarni>dihedral: thank you, but no thanks... you see it's work on a higher level and I don't think you can follow me that far
11:11<dihedral>Bjarni: then i at least learn something from it, and can help another time
11:11<@Bjarni>w=y<z?w>z?3:t>a?a++:--x:y++; <-- this is also only a few chars but it takes forever to figure out
11:12<@Bjarni>hint: it's valid C code
11:12<dihedral>Bjarni: figured that
11:13<@Bjarni>this is a good line to write whenever somebody says something like "it's only a few lines"... the question is not always the number of lines, but the content
11:13<dihedral>it's not such a hard line
11:13<@Bjarni>actually it's not but it can really scare n00bs away
11:14<dihedral>you successfull on detecting a non-scared-noob :-P
11:14<@Bjarni>and everybody else who doesn't look at it correctly :P
11:15<@Bjarni>but... I fail to see any code where that line would be useful
11:15<dihedral>though for readability that is pretty much a nasty line
11:15<dihedral>and personally i would love to slap anybody who codes like that
11:15<dihedral>just because it gets others confused
11:15<dihedral>when in the need of reading code
11:16<@Bjarni>it takes longer to read a line like that than a line like "p->Send_uint16(client_index);"
11:16<frosch123>The most evil thing in c I ever met: if (a-->b)
11:16<@Bjarni>I have to remember that one
11:16<dihedral>why is that evil?
11:17<frosch123>dihedral has not understood the line :)
11:17<@Bjarni>a->b is normal, but the line actually says "(a--) > b"
11:17<dihedral>i see a -1 and a greater than
11:17<dihedral>hence it's not so evil appart from assigning a value in a if
11:17<frosch123>Do you know, how long it took me to find the second minus?
11:17<@Bjarni>but it's really easy to confuse it with a->b, hence a pointer to a struct
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11:18<dihedral>but still - there is a second -
11:18<@Bjarni> <frosch123> Do you know, how long it took me to find the second minus? <--- hours :P
11:18<dihedral>so Bjarni how about it :-P
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11:19<@Bjarni>I once spent days figuring out why I had an SGC window crash when I tried to open OpenTTD (while I was porting it)... turned out that it was a nice undocumented feature so I should include a header file to main that main didn't use (due to defines)
11:19<@Bjarni>I think it took me 3 days or so to figure out
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11:32<ln->question: is it a good idea that the fullscreen state is saved when exiting, as it is now?
11:33<dihedral>why would it not be?
11:35<ln->it may be unexpected.
11:37<dihedral>i find saving the generation seed lese usefull....
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11:37<dihedral>as on dedicated servers that means they have the same map each time they are properly restarted
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11:48<dihedral>eney meney miney mow
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12:25<Ammller>Frostregen: around?
12:27<Ammller>Rubidium: now I know, what you mean with forcing revisions, there are hacked bins available with c&p in it
12:28<Ammller>didn't know that, thats really bad.
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12:38<Ammller>Frostregen: is it somehow possible for server to detec, if a client use this cheat?
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12:47<dihedral>Ammller: what do you mean with 'hacked'?
12:48<Ammller>patch -p0 < c&p.patch && ./configure revision=0.6.0-beta1 && make
12:49<dihedral>lets keep that conversation here
12:49<dihedral>18:49 < dihedral> i am not following you with what is _that_ bad...
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12:50<Ammller>you can use this cheat on clients connected to our servers
12:50<dihedral>cheat as in paste?
12:50<skidd13>dihedral: Someone chould patch his client with the C&P patch and force his revision to the servers revision. And as the patch uses the cmd's the server won't notice
12:50<Ammller>you don't agree?
12:51<dihedral>skidd13: i follow that part
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12:51<dihedral>i patch my servers and the clients dont notice
12:51<Ammller>maybe we could count commands per sec
12:51<dihedral>but then i dont get the 'danger' of it
12:51<Ammller>and if there are more then i.e. 2 from same client -> ban
12:52<Ammller>did I ever speak from danger?
12:52<skidd13>Ammller: Let a WC3 player play OTTD and you migth have to adapt the values
12:52<dihedral>then i dont get the issue
12:52<Ammller>its "just" unfair to the ones who can't use it
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12:53<dihedral>Ammller: the thing with c&p users is, 1. you can tell by the style of building, because it's not human like but tile by tile
12:53<dihedral>2. they alwas build the same
12:53<dihedral>and, c&p allows you to limit the speed of it too
12:54<Ammller>well I am wrong, its not unfair to them who can't use it, its unfair to the guys who use it :)
12:55<dihedral>but how on earth do you want to detect a modified client?
12:55<+glx>you can't detect it
12:56<Ammller>well, biggest problem is, that this binary is available public
12:56<dihedral>you could limit the amount of doCommands a server will accept form any client in a certain time period
12:56<dihedral>but then again, that can be changed on the client side too
12:56<Ammller>we hadn't that on our servers when we use nightlies
12:57<dihedral>buildottd is around...
12:57<dihedral>that is all you need
12:57<Ammller>hmm, you can't do it with bottd
12:57<dihedral>even for nightly games
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12:58<skidd13>To kill the possible violation of script kiddies you could add a savegame bump to the c&p patch
12:58<dihedral>well - that is nothing 'we' could add
12:58<+glx>skidd13: doesn't matter as it still can load unpatched version
12:58<Ammller>I think, most important should be to remove the bins from Frostregen's thread
12:59<dihedral>Ammller: you have no control over that
12:59<dihedral>OpenTTD is open source
12:59<dihedral>and therefore those bins are 100% legit
12:59<Ammller>omg, guys who can compile don't use this
13:00<dihedral>Ammller: not quite - i know a few who can compile and use it :-D
13:00<skidd13>glx: Sure it's more or less a little stone you throw them in the way, but as the game is open source you wont' be able to prevent such missusage
13:00<dihedral>Ammller: nope
13:00<Ammller>skidd13: we hadn't this problem yet
13:01<Ammller>well, its not a problem
13:01<dihedral>skidd13: define 'misusage'
13:01<skidd13>dihedral: modify the game to abnormal behavior to your advantage
13:02<Ammller>I was just scared that this bin is so easy available
13:02<dihedral>as that is not /forbidden/ in the license, that sounds more like a cheat
13:02<dihedral>Ammller: they have been for some time now
13:02<+glx>non dedicated servers (debug build) can cheat easily too
13:02<dihedral>there is no way you can trust any client!
13:03<Ammller>but something like a cheat detector?
13:04<dihedral>then i'll change my client to send a 'no i am not cheating' packet
13:04<Ammller>not possible for a opensource
13:05<dihedral>you could build a detection on the last 5 tiles a client built and 'simply' add checks if this could be normal human interaction or not
13:05<dihedral>and that then would be fully server side
13:05<dihedral>and that would be a bunch of static logic
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13:07[~]dihedral pats oh on the head
13:07[~]Ammller is hearing
13:08<oh>stuck in a neverending queue behind some player with a dialup connection from the stone age
13:08<dihedral>that is a good chance to practice patience
13:08<oh>when I finally connect, he disconnects and so do I
13:08<oh>and we do it all over again :P
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13:10<dihedral>Ammller: c&p builds tile by tile
13:11<Ammller>I know, its same as you do manually
13:11<oh>have there been any major networking changes in 0.6?
13:11<Ammller>just faster :)
13:11<dihedral>so if it 'builds' 5 tiles that just dont make sense
13:11<dihedral>it does not build like you do normally
13:11<oh>geoff_k_: I give up
13:11<geoff_k_>yeah don;t blame you
13:11<geoff_k_>no idea whats going on never seen it be like this
13:12<Ammller>I uesed it on chrisin
13:12<oh>need to play some enemy territory or halo to blow off some steam ;P
13:12<dihedral>it does one tile after the other
13:12<Ammller>ah, now I get you
13:13<dihedral>no - if the server rememberd the last 5 or 10 tiles each client builds on
13:13<geoff_k_>i don;t know where to suspect something has gone bad with the networking somewhere in the beta but i've never had lost connections like it
13:13<dihedral>and runs 'static' checks over them
13:13<dihedral>i.e. hardcoded checks
13:14<dihedral>to determin if this was built by human or not i.e. does it make sense
13:14<dihedral>and you only consider in that check tiles that are next to eachother
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13:26<geoff_k_>im getting pretty much constant lost connections on this beta like i've never seen in the releases
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13:27<geoff_k_>only difference in this game to what i normaly run is the skill level of players is better but there aren't that many vehichles
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13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11475 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: rename clamp and clampu to Clamp and ClampU to fit with the coding style
13:38<dihedral>19:26 < geoff_k_> im getting pretty much constant lost connections on this beta like i've never seen in the releases <-- hence it's beta
13:39<geoff_k_>yeah not expecting a perfect ride i'd liek to be able to track why
13:39<geoff_k_>there was a play constantly connecting and losing connection i've banned the ip now
13:39<geoff_k_>was happening to everyone in the game
13:39<+glx>what is map size?
13:40<geoff_k_>1024 x 1024
13:40<geoff_k_>same as i always do
13:40<+glx>may be too big for some clients
13:40<geoff_k_>could be
13:40<dihedral>you use pause when clients connect?
13:41<Rubidium>does it have the word "desync" in the error message? If not, then the clients are just too slow
13:41<geoff_k_>Rubidium, i;ve had a few desyncs but not many think there have been about 3 or 4
13:41<Rubidium>did it have "desync" in the error message?
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13:42<geoff_k_>not for all these problems, just says connection lost
13:42<Rubidium>then it is not a desync
13:42<geoff_k_>but there has been a couple of desyncs as well
13:42<geoff_k_>they aren't the issue
13:42<+glx>check the server console, should have say "client #x is slow..."
13:42<Rubidium>desync are an issue, connections lost due to bad network connections/slow clients are not an issue
13:43<dihedral>one perfect example of 'user' and 'dev' oppinion :-)
13:43<geoff_k_>there have been messages about slow clients but no one left playing now but for one player
13:44<geoff_k_>who don't sseem to have any problem so far
13:44<Rubidium>the desync is something that "we" can fix, network connection losts "we" cannot fix as it is a network/slow client issue
13:44<dihedral>oh - c'mon Rubidium
13:44<geoff_k_>yeah i suspect one of 2 things, 1 being a client keep connecting and then lost connection, and also this plane speed i suspect a bit but not sure about that
13:45<dihedral>i am sure you could fix it :-D
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13:45<dihedral>how many vehicles do you have in that game geoff_k_
13:45<geoff_k_>they are only things that i can see what are different or not normal
13:45<geoff_k_>i'll do a count
13:46<Rubidium>oh, by the way... 0.6.0-beta1 is slower than 0.5.3 due to the assertions that are checked in 0.6.0-beta1 and not in 0.5.3
13:46<geoff_k_>about 150 trains 80 planes ...
13:47<geoff_k_>about 80 road and no ships
13:47<geoff_k_>which dont sound like a lot
13:48<dihedral>i was thinking that the constant disconnects could be due to cpu usage and not being able to handle it all
13:48<dihedral>but in that case :P
13:48<geoff_k_>i know ive had a lot more than that wihtout problems, maybe its just the one client on a bad connection before
13:48<dihedral>which host:port?
13:49<geoff_k_>the player? it was
13:49<geoff_k_>or my server?
13:49<dihedral>youre server
13:49<dihedral>what do i want to know the client for
13:49<geoff_k_>i did wonder :p
13:49<geoff_k_> im on
13:51<geoff_k_>its hard to see a problem no but everyone has left almost
13:51<dihedral>that aint 0.6.0-beta1...
13:51<geoff_k_>desync jsut had
13:51<geoff_k_>what port? its on 3981
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13:52<geoff_k_>what have i installed :)?
13:52<dihedral>it was the other port...
13:52<dihedral>you're running that at home arent you
13:52<dihedral>can tell - slow upload :-P
13:53<geoff_k_>yeah it will be a bit, gives about 50kbps i think in total
13:53<geoff_k_>its 8Mbit down
13:53<dihedral>down is not interesting in this case
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13:53<geoff_k_>connected about 0.5Mbit upstream
13:54<geoff_k_>which should be enough not much bandwitdh gets used here
13:54<dihedral>last time i waited this long to connect to a game was when i needed to download a 20mb map for ET
13:55<dihedral>you are running 2 games there, right
13:55<geoff_k_>its a pretty big map but wouldn;t think it should take that long dont sound right lot of industry on it
13:55<geoff_k_>yeah 2 games
13:55<dihedral>it's a 2mb map
13:58<dihedral>i have no idea what you have going on in that game, but it gets my cpu on 100%
13:59<dihedral>the last time i saw a ottd game do that was at wwottdgd
13:59<geoff_k_>yeah i been having that problem
13:59<dihedral>could you pause the game for a sec?
13:59<geoff_k_>yeah sure
14:02<geoff_k_>if it helps to test the upload im giving out could try to hit on this see how fast it goes
14:02<geoff_k_>it really shouldn't be a problem though but from here i cannot say for sure
14:03<geoff_k_>i've got iptraf running and there is nothing happening as always is the case
14:04<dihedral>can unpause again
14:05<dihedral>you have an awful amount of industries...
14:05<geoff_k_>yeah there is too many
14:05<geoff_k_>its not on max though
14:06<geoff_k_>i did set max 1st and it was way too much so restarted it a setting less
14:06<dihedral>like i said - it gets my cpu to 100% which i have not had sinse wwottdgd
14:06<dihedral>so there you have the reason for your disconnects
14:06<geoff_k_>yeah thats odd though
14:07<geoff_k_>i do get my cpu going usualy when the game gets well into playing i struggle to play it then but other peopel say they got no problems thats on all releases ive played
14:08<dihedral>we had people at wwottdgd that had no issues playing either
14:08<dihedral>about 10-12 of them
14:08<dihedral>all of them had a core 2 duo
14:08<dihedral>i.e. a fairly new computer
14:09<Ailure>I remember
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14:09<Ailure>that I never went over 30% on my computer
14:09<Ailure>CPU usage wise
14:09<Ailure>it was mostly around 20-25%
14:09<Hendikins>Bjarni: TVM = Ticket Vending Machine
14:09<Ailure>which would be 40-50% on a single core
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14:10<hylje>what about ottd supporting pedestrian traffic >:D
14:10<geoff_k_>i know my system struggle on the client side when it gets going i;ve always had that this game seemed to happen a lot quicker but then people are better players to what im used to
14:10<Ailure>something screw happened with the server though
14:10<Ailure>but I never got problems clientside
14:10<geoff_k_>still seems a bit too quick though
14:10<Ailure>server starting to drop clients
14:10<Rubidium>hylje: it already does; just code a NewGRF where 'people' go 5 km/h
14:10<geoff_k_>thats same problem
14:10<Ailure>even clients that was fast enough, that is
14:10<dihedral>Ailure: ottd does not use 2 cores
14:11<Ailure>i know
14:11<geoff_k_>one thing i notice is on the client side this 2Ghz (single core) don't seem to handle it really much better than my old PIII's
14:11<Ailure>that's why I said
14:11<hylje>Rubidium: what about station area planning to handle all those passengers?
14:11<Ailure>[20:08] <Ailure> which would be 40-50% on a single core
14:11<Ailure>becuse it's a single-threaded application
14:11<Ailure>and I know about what threading is
14:11<Ailure>and semaphores and etc
14:11<Ailure>I even programmed with them
14:11<hylje>how does Ailure know what threading is
14:12<Rubidium>his mother sews
14:12<dihedral>good one
14:12<geoff_k_>i know what threaqding is, i run Xen servers and most people that run them except me use many cores becauses Xen can assign cores to virtual machines or groups of machines
14:13<geoff_k_>this isn't running in a virtual machine though
14:13<geoff_k_>itso n a physical box
14:13<dihedral>that is beside the point
14:13<geoff_k_>or bare metal as they say
14:14<dihedral>you wanted to know why your clients disconnect
14:14<geoff_k_>yeah i kind of know why but still not sure why that is happening
14:14<dihedral>big map - lots of indus
14:15<geoff_k_>i'll get a crappy old PIII out and install it on that play single play and see what slows it down
14:15<Sacro>Brianetta: you sound like a pidgeon
14:15<geoff_k_>like i say though i've had these map always until now its been ok for the most part
14:15<dihedral>nice one Sacro
14:15<geoff_k_>few more industry thats all
14:16<dihedral>geoff_k_: define 'few'?
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14:16<Prof_Frink>Sacro: That's his RFC1149-compliant connection.
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14:16<geoff_k_>the generator seems to have made more i wouldn't like to guess at counting them maybe about 20% more
14:17<dihedral>good thing that 20% is not relative
14:18<geoff_k_>i'lol do some one play on it over next few days running it dedcated server see how i go that way
14:18<dihedral>if you remove all trees you make the map smaller :-)
14:18<geoff_k_>aircraft speed possibly isn;t helping
14:18<geoff_k_>they move a lot faster
14:19<geoff_k_>ive always found int he past a lot of aircraft can slow things down
14:19<dihedral>a lot of anything can slow things down
14:19<geoff_k_>specialy fast aircraft same with trains
14:20<dihedral>it's about the pathfinding
14:20<Rubidium>aircraft and pathfinding?
14:20<geoff_k_>when deisel is introduced then thing normal get a little bit slower but its not bad its still plays well until about highspeed electric trains if there are alot of good player and lots of trains that can be a problem but sitll not as bad
14:21<dihedral>Rubidium: no - i am merly making a point that the pathfinding is more cpu intense than the speed of a vehicle
14:21<geoff_k_>and again its only me seems to suffer
14:21<geoff_k_>everyone else has no problem
14:21<Rubidium>dihedral: not always true
14:21<dihedral>not always allows for it to be somewhat correct :-)
14:22<dihedral>in fact allows for it to be mostly correct
14:22<Rubidium>an NewGRF aircraft flying fast over a group of NewGRF vehicles gives you a load of CPU cycles needed to redraw all of them
14:22<Rubidium>(or NewGRF houses or whatever having action 2)
14:22<dihedral>but that would be temparary cpu load, right
14:23<Rubidium>for each aircraft flying through your screen
14:23<Rubidium>and 'following' vehicles isn't making it any faster either
14:23<dihedral>well - that is temporary enough on a game taht only has 20-50 aircrafts in a 1024^2 map
14:24<dihedral>and should not keep cpu load at 100%
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14:30<oh_>wah, ottd 1thread?
14:31<oh_>looks like it's got 3 going for it to me ;<
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14:32<Rubidium>oh_: game logic is all in one thread
14:32<Rubidium>saves happen in a separate thread and possibly music/sound playback
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14:42<dihedral>people on coop are randomly jumping with their vewport to a certain area
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14:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11478 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix: two small layout issues with the vehicle grouping GUI.
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14:54<geoff_k_>hmm just tried to connect to another server running the beta and took forever to download them map then when i got on it my screen has frozen can't even close it,... and connection lost.. will try another one at another location if there are any
14:55<geoff_k_>was same size map
14:56<Rubidium>as I said before, the beta is kinda slow due to some debugging stuff that's still enabled in them.
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14:57<geoff_k_>yeah im jsut poking around really to see what does go well, i never play other peoples servers i'll see what happens on the 0.5.3 servers out there im just trying to benchmark what is normal
14:58<Rubidium>I'm just saying that you can't really compare performance
14:58<geoff_k_>downloading maps is very slow
14:58<Rubidium>usually means the server has not enough bandwidth
14:58<geoff_k_>yeah not really if there is debugging to consider
14:59<Gonozal_VIII>slow or bad connection both has nothing to do with game version :-)
15:00<Rubidium>true, *but*
15:00<geoff_k_>yeah both games i tried taking for ever to download the maps this one im connection to now is just under 1MB
15:00<geoff_k_>looks like i lost connection there too
15:00<Rubidium>slow download + slower loading + slower getting in sync with the map == more chance to get connection losts
15:00<geoff_k_>thats was 512 x 1024
15:07<dihedral>geoff_k_: consider downloading from servers on faster links :-)
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>pause_on_join = true :-)
15:08<geoff_k_>yeah its finding one though, i just lost connection connecting to a 0.5.3 1024 x 1024 game which looked like it was busy, could just be this systems is not upto it which i find odd, it has been running for almost 2 weeks
15:11<geoff_k_>im connected fine to 512 x 512 0.5.3 thats fine not a lot going on on it though so far
15:11<Gonozal_VIII>you can test you're system with the fast forward button in single player, if it doesn't speed up you're already at the limit
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15:13<Gonozal_VIII>(the blubb was for the first you're thing^^)
15:14<dihedral>geoff_k_: for 0.5.3 feel free to try my games
15:15<dihedral>host: at ports 3979, 27016, 27020
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15:15<geoff_k_>thanks will do going to grab a caffine 1st feel like i need it
15:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11479 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp macros.h):
15:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Move the BIGMUL functions to the file of their usage
15:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Rename the BIGMUL functions to the fitting naming style
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15:24<geoff_k_>seems to be slow at getting the map, just checked my net with a download its working just fine
15:25<geoff_k_>not sure how long it should take but downloading maps seems to be lot slower than it should be, few kbs per second on any connection either end is slow
15:26<geoff_k_>port 3979 im on and it seems good so far
15:35<@Bjarni> <Hendikins> Bjarni: TVM = Ticket Vending Machine <-- LOL... it only took you like 20+ hours to answer that question :D
15:35<hylje>better late than never
15:37<@Bjarni>though I would be scared if Titanic arrives at New York tomorrow
15:37<Rubidium>Bjarni: you know someone has an issue with 0.6.0-beta1 and OSX10.3?
15:38<@Bjarni>I have problems testing it since I don't have hardware to run 10.3 :(
15:38<Rubidium>forum -> OpenTTD -> Problems
15:39<Rubidium>maybe it's something you know
15:39<dihedral>Bjarni: i have a G4 and 10.3.9 on a dvd
15:39<dihedral>unfor not installed
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15:42<@Bjarni>problem solved (I hope)
15:43[~]dihedral waits to see the commit :-P
15:43<@Bjarni>dihedral: that sounds nice. I have 10.3 CDs but the hardware died and I don't feel like paying around £200 for a new PSU for an 800 MHz G4 (custom built PSU)
15:44<@Bjarni>* dihedral waits to see the commit :-P <-- the problem was "you placed the grf files in the wrong dir"... I don't think we will see a commit fixing user errors :P
15:45<dihedral>? grf files? where does that come from?
15:45<@Bjarni>your TT CD
15:45<@Bjarni>or disks
15:46<@Bjarni>well... I can't rule out that your grf files comes from somebody else's CD :P
15:47<@Bjarni>what I don't like is that he gets the warning printed that showed up recently.... it shouldn't be there
15:47<@Bjarni>dihedral: if everything else fails then I guess you might have to install Panther :s
15:48<@Bjarni>damn those names... the numbers are easier to remember :P
15:48<@Bjarni>public beta = 0
15:48<@Bjarni>then 1,2,3,4 and now 5
15:48<dihedral>i might just get an external hdd and install it on there... :-)
15:48<dihedral>will be slow but will do the trick
15:48<@Bjarni>sounds reasonable
15:49<@Bjarni>external HDs aren't that slow if they are connected to firewire
15:49<dihedral>that's an idea
15:49<@Bjarni>you will notice a great speed difference if you connect the same disk to USB and firewire (only one at a time :P )
15:49<dihedral>but i dont have that converter
15:49<dihedral>i only have usb to 2.5" ide :-P
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>one of those that run on usb power?
15:51<dihedral>usb => 2.5" ide connecter, the 2.5" ide connector includes power for 2.5" disks
15:52<@Bjarni>I have a case for 2.5" HDs and I realised this issue so I made sure that it has both USB and firewire
15:52<dihedral>mail it to me :-D
15:52<@Bjarni>it's kind of funny. It can be powered by one firewire cable or two USB cables
15:52<@Bjarni>it's in use :P
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>firewire doesn't supply power or does it?
15:52<@Bjarni>it has 12V
15:53<@Bjarni>but only in 6 pin cables
15:53<@Bjarni>some products has only 4 pins and then there aren't any power
15:54<@Bjarni>I think firewire can support 8W or something like that though a single cable
15:54<Gonozal_VIII>that doesn't sound like much
15:55<@Bjarni>the place where you need it most is if you have a notebook and want to power an external HD from the notebook battery but it looks like only Apple decided to include 6 pin firewire in their notebooks. Everybody else saved some power and space and only added 4 pins
15:55<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> that doesn't sound like much <-- it is compared to the max 2,5W from USB
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>aaah 5v 500ma is 2,5w...
15:56<@Bjarni>there is a BIG difference :P
15:56<Gonozal_VIII>uppercase sucks^^
15:57<@Bjarni>mA is 10^-3 A while MA is 10^6 A... so a factor 9
15:57<@Bjarni>uppercase/lowercase matters
15:59<geoff_k_>dihedral, map 3 i lost conection i guess this cpu is just not good enough for too much going on
16:00<Rubidium>mb vs MB is even bigger
16:00<Rubidium>Bjarni: and it's a factor 10^9, not 9
16:00<Gonozal_VIII>which os are you running on geoff?
16:02<geoff_k_>i find it hard to blieve though because im sure my old PIII's used to work better than this, im going to patch some systems up with different distros i ithnk and see how that goes
16:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11481 /trunk/src/ (88 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: Rename the HASBIT function to fit with the naming style
16:03<geoff_k_>something not right somewhere
16:03<Gonozal_VIII>so the fact that you're running for 2 weeks without reboot shouldn't matter...
16:03<geoff_k_>yeah i never had to reboot
16:03<geoff_k_>plenty of free ram in the system no swap used
16:03<dihedral>skidd13: you're doing some good coding style work there :-)
16:04<skidd13>dihedral: yup, expect more
16:04<geoff_k_>i have had issues before wiht this cpu overheating it why it was thrown out and came into my hands
16:04<geoff_k_>since i cleaned it though its been fine
16:04<geoff_k_>when i found it just segfaulted at everything
16:07<dihedral>skidd13: are you doing that acording to the 'current' guid line or is there a 'new' one?
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16:08<skidd13>dihedral: mainly the current ;)
16:08<dihedral>_mainly_ ?
16:08<skidd13>dihedral: There is some work going on...
16:09<dihedral>give me a url when it's finished :-P
16:09<Rubidium> Style
16:09|-|thgergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:13<dihedral>There is currently no text in this page :-)
16:14[~]dihedral expects a slap....
16:20|-|Farden [] has joined #openttd
16:20<Rubidium>dihedral: it works for me
16:20<dihedral>now it does :-)
16:21<dihedral>it was _ before
16:21<dihedral>:-( my bad
16:21<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: that's something I leave to your browser
16:22|-|lugo [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:23<Wezz6400>I think it's the wiki that turns the space into a underscore
16:23<Wezz6400>firefox converts it to %20 for any other link for me
16:24<Gonozal_VIII>there is an entry with space that redirects to the one with _
16:25<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: no, the wiki does that automagically
16:25<Rubidium>there is no entry "Coding Style", only "Coding_style" and "Coding_Style"
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>i like automagic :-)
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16:51<Wolf01>'night all
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17:02|-|dihedral changed nick to Guest1271
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17:06<dihedral>Bjarni: you around? with like 5 mins to spare...?
17:06<dihedral>no worries, no diff flying around :-P
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>...yet :p
17:09<Eddi|zuHause2>pssst... some people are sleeping
17:09[~]dihedral smiles
17:11<Sacro>Bjarni doesn't sleep
17:11<Sacro>he just rests his eyes
17:11<Rubidium>shouldn't someone be awake before (s)he can sleep?
17:12|-|Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>some ... let's call it ... animals ... sleep the whole winter
17:13<dihedral>my 'tiger' on my laptop hibernates :-D
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>tigers belong in the tank
17:14<Gonozal_VIII>tiger is a tank
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>(even james bond used that phrase)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>roger moore, i believe
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>but i'm not really sure
17:34<dihedral>tiger is a os
17:34<dihedral>os x
17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>i never heard of an os called gibbon
17:36<+glx>ubuntu IIRC
17:36<tiaz>yeah, gutsy
17:39<dihedral>i much like potato and itchy from debian
17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i totally ROFLed when i read that they released "Cartoffel" :p
17:45<dihedral>currently unstable
17:46<dihedral>development is sid and always will be
17:46<Prof_Frink>unstable is sid.
17:46<Prof_Frink>testing is currently lenny, stable is etch
17:47[~]dihedral got muddled
17:47<dihedral>meant etch
17:47<dihedral>from etch a sketch
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17:49<SmatZ>I really like bugreports like FS#1455
17:50|-|ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
17:51<dihedral>lol - that is nice
17:51<dihedral>let's use instead of the tt-forums :-D
17:52<+glx>SmatZ: yes it's a nice one ;)
17:53<dihedral>glx: frame it :-)
17:55<geoff_k_>i had a look at gutsy to see how it goes for using Xen (nothing else) and it was really bad, lots of bugs and work arounds wasn't impressed
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>"i spent 5 minutes playing around with $DISTRI and found $ANNOYING_FEATURE, i totally hate it."
17:59|-|MarkSlap [] has quit [Quit: Screw you guy, I'm going home and smoke pot]
18:00<dihedral>nice one Eddi|zuHause2
18:01|-|fjb [] has joined #openttd
18:01<geoff_k_>yeah really it was like that
18:01<ln->who likes sangria?
18:01<valhallasw>sangria is good
18:01<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
18:02<valhallasw>in not-too-large quantities
18:02|-|MarkSlap [] has joined #openttd
18:02<ln->good it is
18:03<Sacro>!bug 1455
18:03<Sacro>!bugs 1455
18:03<Sacro>!fs 1455
18:03<Sacro>hmm :\
18:04<Sacro>@bug 1455
18:04<Sacro>@bugs 1455
18:04<@DorpsGek>Sacro: [FS#1455] Bug Report (sev: Low, prio: Normal, status: New): 'Impossible to build a new bank', by wolfgang -
18:04<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Error: The command "bugs" is available in the OpenTTD and WT2 plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "bugs".
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18:15<fjb>The ghost has left again...
18:16|-|Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:18<ln->Bjarni: do you like sangria?
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18:41<slafs>I've set realistic_acceleration = true in openttd.cfg, but the game says it is off. Why?
18:42<Digitalfox>ln-: Is Sangria a drink?
18:42<Digitalfox>In Portugal it is :)
18:42<SmatZ>slafs: in the game intro is it off?
18:43<slafs>I dunno, dedicated server
18:44<slafs>is it possible to set with rcon or console?
18:44|-|stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:45<SmatZ>slafs: patch realistic_acceleration 1 could work
18:46<@Bjarni><ln-> Bjarni: do you like sangria? <--- err.. that depends... are you thinking of the same sangria as I'm thinking about? :)
18:46<@Bjarni><dihedral> Bjarni: you around? with like 5 mins to spare...? <-- well... I am now
18:47<@Bjarni>the question is more about the 5 minutes though :/
18:48<fjb>Hm, the new one way road gui is nice. Could that easily be implemented for railroads?
18:49<SmatZ>fjb: one-way rail? aren't one-way signals enough?
18:50<Gonozal_VIII>you mean automatically place a signal every x tiles?
18:50<@Bjarni>just place a one way signal and you have a one way track
18:50<fjb>The semantics of one way signals is horribly wrong. A train should just ignore a signal for the other direction.
18:50<@Bjarni>you mean you want something like simutrans signalling?
18:51<fjb>I don't know simultrans. But I never heard about trains stopping ultimatively at the backside of a signal...
18:51<@Bjarni>oh they do
18:51<@Bjarni>sort of
18:52<fjb>Sort of? Under what circumstances?
18:53<@Bjarni>if a train drives on the left track and there is an entrance signal (to a station) for the right track, then they have to stop in front of that signal even though it's not for that particular track
18:53<@Bjarni>they will then look into the backside of the exit signal
18:54<fjb>But what counts is the signal at the neighbouring track facing the same direction as the train, not the signal with it's backside in front of the train.
18:55<ln->Digitalfox: sure it is a drink.
18:55<@Bjarni>I don't know it
18:55<@Bjarni>but then again I don't drink
18:55<Digitalfox>ln-: I asked because it could be another thing in your country
18:56<ln->Sangria er en blanding af vin, sædvanligvis rødvin, og frugt, og gerne et sødningsmiddel. Andre ingredienser kan også høre med. Det findes dog mange forskellige varianter og opskrifter. Sangria blir ofte serveret om sommeren som en kold drik, og er for mange desuden synonym med 1970'ernes spanske grisefester.
18:56<Digitalfox>It's a very loved drink here in Portugal
18:56<Digitalfox>Lot's of people from teeangers to adults and old people drink it ;)
18:56<@Bjarni>ln- just said it's popular when travelling to Spain during the 70s
18:56<ln->Digitalfox: we "don't" have it here... (it can be bought somewhere but it's not common nor popular).
18:57<@Bjarni>now he told me what it's made of but I have never heard of it
18:57<ln->on our trip to Barcelona last summer we had it every day, i think.
18:57<Digitalfox>Bjarni: I don't even know what language was that lol
18:57<@Bjarni>drunk bastards :P
18:58<@Bjarni>Digitalfox: a readable one :P
18:58<Digitalfox>personally i love beer :) Lot's of it eh eh
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18:58<ln->A sangria é uma bebida ou coquetel feita com base numa mistura de vinho tinto, sumo de fruta e pedaços de frutas e açúcar.
18:58<@Bjarni>I don't drink beer either
18:58<Digitalfox>A week without 20 it's not a good one :\
18:58<Digitalfox>ln-: nice
18:58<@Bjarni><Bjarni> drunk bastards :P
18:59<Digitalfox>hell yeah..
18:59<Digitalfox>it's fun
18:59<@Bjarni>not for me
18:59<ln->Bjarni: despite the rødvin, sangria tastes better.. it's sort of a refreshing, cold drink like coke.
18:59<@Bjarni>people say stupid stuff when they are drunk
18:59[~]fjb wonders what fun drinking is.
19:00<@Bjarni>fjb: have a glass of water and figure it out
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19:00<Digitalfox>one friend of mine this weekend was caught with 3.40g/l on blood, he had to go to court and now will be without driver licence, for 6 months
19:00<fjb>Bjarni: Oh, that is really fun.
19:00<fjb>Digitalfox: Now I see the fun.
19:01<+glx>Digitalfox: don't drive if you drink
19:01<@Bjarni>we count it in ‰
19:01<@Bjarni>the limit is 0,5‰
19:01<@Bjarni>I like the Australian limit better (0,02‰)
19:01<Digitalfox>Bjarni: Well the limit here is 0.5g/l
19:01<SmatZ>we got 0,000 no matter if g/l, %, % or ppm :-p
19:02<@Bjarni>SmatZ: how can you tell the difference between 0,005 and 0,000 ppm?
19:02<ln->Bjarni: what about on rail?
19:02<Digitalfox>The limit here changed because portuguese wines companys made a big fuss over the old limit of 0.2
19:02<+glx>0 may be wrong as some people do "create" alcohol by themself
19:02<SmatZ>Bjarni: if police can prove it, then you lost your driving licence
19:03<SmatZ>yes, our laws are bad
19:03<Digitalfox>glx: I don't drive when i drink, i have a girlfriend for that moment
19:03<@Bjarni>the Australian limit is due to how well they can measure it and be sure enough of the measurement that it can stand as evidence in a trial
19:03<SmatZ>they scare people for no reason
19:04<@Bjarni><SmatZ> yes, our laws are bad <-- you talk about an awesome law that I would like to have here and then you end the explanation with a statement like this..... odd
19:05<SmatZ>Bjarni: it is bad... as glx said, people have some alcohol in blood naturally
19:06<SmatZ>people with diabetes can have 0,3 promile...
19:06<SmatZ>and anyway, sometimes I wake up after a party, maybe I have 0,1 promile in blood... hmm
19:06<@Bjarni>only 0,1‰?
19:07<ln->SmatZ: 0,3 > 0,0, so they should be punished, too.
19:07<SmatZ>ln-: yes, that's the law
19:07<@Bjarni>you can actually drink so much to a party that you can't drive the next day even after sleeping 8 hours
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>everybody has >0
19:08|-|Unknown_Entity [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:08<Sacro>i've done that
19:08<SmatZ>actually, if police measures some alcohol in your breath, you go for a blood test... then at the blood test, they tolerate ~ 0,2 promile, as it is usual to have this level in blood
19:08<+glx>that's surprising Sacro ;)
19:08<SmatZ>but it is breaking the law
19:08<@Bjarni>Sacro: any freaky thing that you haven't done?
19:09|-|Digitalfox [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
19:09<Sacro>Bjarni: a fair few
19:09<Sacro>i've never made love to a danish man before
19:09<@Bjarni>are you coming on to me?
19:10<+glx>how can we interpret that?
19:10|-|oh [] has joined #openttd
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>[01:08:47] SmatZ: actually, if police measures some alcohol in your breath, you go for a blood test... then at the blood test, they tolerate ~ 0,2 promile, as it is usual to have this level in blood <-- about the same here but legal limit is 0,5... if you don't let them do the blood test they write 1,6 no matter what
19:10<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: sometimes 1,6 is lower than the actual value ^_^
19:11<Gonozal_VIII>yes but punishment doesn't change from 1,6 up
19:11<Sacro>Bjarni: that all depends
19:11<+glx>it's still more than 3 times the limit
19:11<@Bjarni>I would write 4,0 and then they have to prove me wrong :P
19:12<@Bjarni>still lower than some Swede the police picked up in Denmark though
19:12<@Bjarni>naturally he was sleeping
19:12<SmatZ>but all the laws are useless... from police statistics, alcohol has very little impact on number of accidents caused (percent of detected alcohol by police control vs. alcohol as cause of an accident)
19:12<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't matter if they write 1,6 or 4,0 for the law
19:12[~]Sacro rings the bell 1, 3-1, and sets the line to clear
19:13<@Bjarni>if my phone rings in a moment then I will perm ban Sacro
19:13<Gonozal_VIII>[01:12:49] * Sacro rings the bell 1, 3-1, and sets the line to clear ??
19:13<+glx>train sim I guess
19:13<Sacro>glx wins!
19:13<Sacro>well, signalling
19:14<+glx>is the line clear for real?
19:14<Gonozal_VIII>less fun then
19:15<ln->Bjarni: do you have a secret phone number or something, because i was unable to find it.
19:15<@Bjarni>I don't want people to call me for OTTD tech support
19:15[~]Sacro calls 555-BJARNI
19:16[~]Bjarni slaps Sacro
19:16<@Bjarni>I'm not American
19:16<@Bjarni>I'm not that stupid
19:16<@Bjarni>but maybe Sacro is
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>and 555 numbers only exist in films
19:17<SmatZ>7,94 promile - driver of a truck :)
19:18<@Bjarni>I would fall over before reaching 2‰
19:19|-|flaa [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:19<ln->i wasn't able to find Tron's phone number either.
19:19<@Bjarni>you wanted to call Tron???
19:19<SmatZ>funny things is, that after these new much more strict laws, there are more accidents and more dead people than before it
19:19<SmatZ>strict laws are bad
19:19<ln->Bjarni: i wanted the rest of you to call him.
19:20<@Bjarni>just shoot all law breakers
19:20<@Bjarni>then the problems will die
19:20<Gonozal_VIII>problem is that strict laws don't help when they are not enforced
19:20<SmatZ>so I hope I will never live in such democratic country as Denmark :)
19:21<SmatZ>people break the law more at places when they suppose police cannot see them
19:21<SmatZ>because they are stressed and angry from the new law
19:21|-|oh [] has quit [Quit: oh]
19:21<Gonozal_VIII>spam the roads with cameras then
19:21<SmatZ>and hire millions of policemen to watch all of them :-p
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>nah, automatic
19:22<@Bjarni>the politicians agreed that the population don't want that
19:22<SmatZ>I would never live in a country with too many cameras
19:22<@Bjarni>they never asked the population though
19:22<@Bjarni>define too many
19:22<@Bjarni>one aimed at all your windows?
19:23<SmatZ>no... but when I go through the city, there is no moment some camera do not see me
19:23<SmatZ>I do not like it
19:23<SmatZ>that is not freedom
19:23<@Bjarni>you have a criminal mind
19:23<@Bjarni>they are there for your protection
19:23<@Bjarni>imagine that somebody steals your wallet
19:24<SmatZ>then he steals my wallet...
19:24<@Bjarni>the cameras can detect that and give a face of the criminal
19:24<@Bjarni>and you have a fair chance of getting it back
19:24<SmatZ>there were no cameras few years ago and I have never been robbed
19:24<@Bjarni>I have been robbed in the angle that the camera didn't pick up
19:24<@Bjarni>somehow I think they knew
19:25<@Bjarni>first they wanted all my money. I told them that I didn't have any on me (the truth)
19:25<@Bjarni>then they.... wanted my cloth o_O
19:26<@Bjarni>until one of them said that he didn't think that they could sell it
19:26<SmatZ>and finally, they were Czech, weren't they? :)
19:26<@Bjarni>I think they came from the Middle East
19:26<@Bjarni>at least they looked like it
19:26<@Bjarni>but I didn't feel like asking
19:27<Gonozal_VIII>so they didn't steal anything?
19:27<@Bjarni>I had the best defence ever: I didn't have anything worth stealing
19:27<SmatZ>they could kill you anyway
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19:27<@Bjarni>I only had my old worn cloth and nothing else
19:28<SmatZ>I think robbers should be punished more
19:28<@Bjarni><SmatZ> they could kill you anyway <-- now that would be something... being killed at 11 O'clock (during the day) at the train station
19:28<SmatZ>there is nothing like 'unintentional robbery'
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>before you can punish them you have to catch them
19:29<@Bjarni>oh that's easy
19:29<@Bjarni>just go to the station and pick up the gang
19:29<@Bjarni>they are known criminals
19:29<SmatZ>it is a bit racist
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>why are they still there then?
19:29<SmatZ>"they are in a gang, so they are bad"
19:30<@Bjarni>the newspapers calls them gangs... I just quoted them
19:30<Gonozal_VIII>they were trying to rob him, so they are bad
19:30<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> they were trying to rob him, so they are bad <-- that's the basic idea
19:31|-|eJoJ [~ejoj@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:32<ln->what would you figure about this guy without trying to interpret the finnish texts:
19:32<SmatZ>ln-: average guy
19:32|-|eJoJ [~ejoj@] has joined #openttd
19:33<@Bjarni><ln-> [...] without trying to interpret the finnish texts <-- don't ask for the impossible
19:34<+glx>ln-: isn't he the killer ?
19:34|-|KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:34<ln->glx: nope
19:34<SmatZ>ln-: what's so interesting about him?
19:35|-|prakti [] has quit [Quit: Quitting .... Hackedi...hackedi...weg.]
19:35<@Bjarni>he is named Mustafa and has Finnish relatives?
19:35<ln->SmatZ: the fact that he looks like an average, non-dangerous guy.
19:35<ln->he's turkish citizen, but that's not relevant.
19:35<@Bjarni>he rides a moped without a helmet... he looks dangerous
19:35<@Bjarni>to himself
19:36<Gonozal_VIII>sooooo... normal guy... what's so special about him?
19:36<@Bjarni>he is on the internet?
19:36<ln->well, the newspaper article between the pics says "almost five years of prison to a man who raped a 10-year-old"
19:37<@Bjarni>they should keep him
19:37<@Bjarni>or fry him
19:37<SmatZ>hmm he seems to like girls
19:37<Gonozal_VIII>only five years O_o
19:37<ln->additionally, attempted to rape one adult and forced another one to sexual act, the article also says.
19:37<SmatZ>hmm yes, rape is very wrong, too... but sometimes, it is very hard to prove :-x
19:37<+glx>and only five years?
19:38<ln->if he's a first-timer and behaves good, he'll be out after something like 2.5 years... :/
19:38<Gonozal_VIII>rapists should get that tatooed on their foreheads if they ever leave prison
19:38<@Bjarni>it shouldn't be hard to prove when the victim is only 10
19:38<SmatZ>Bjarni: true... if you have DNA tests
19:39<@Bjarni>there is a case in Denmark about a pedophile being beaten up in prison.... for some reason they claim that to be illegal
19:39<SmatZ>bad things about laws : they are unifying people too much, they are not dynamic
19:39<SmatZ>Bjarni, it is illegal
19:40<@Bjarni>but it's not dishonouring to do....
19:40<+glx>laws apply in prison too
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>and for honorable actions
19:40<SmatZ>Bjarni what kind of pedophile s/he was? like had sex with some 14-years old, very sex experienced girl?
19:41<@Bjarni>I have no idea
19:41<@Bjarni>but somebody in prison didn't like whatever he did
19:41<SmatZ>that's a problem - the girl can be 14 or 4, you are still pedophile
19:42<SmatZ>or ... speed limits are still the same, no matter how free/jammed streets are
19:42<ln->someone interested in 14-year-old girls isn't a pedophile really. there may be another term for that, and it is still illegal to implement that interest.
19:42<@Bjarni>we have speed signs that changed due to traffic
19:42<SmatZ>going 80 on highway in night just because sometimes 80 is safer (sometimes jams) is ... bad
19:43<SmatZ>Bjarni: we have, but they are changing just 50/70 :-) it has mostly 70 if streets are not really jammed...
19:43<@Bjarni>ours can show more or less everything
19:44<SmatZ>Bjarni: then you are more advanced... we have cameras on highways, but signs are solid usually
19:44<@Bjarni>also there is a law that states that you are never allowed to driver faster than the conditions allow... a blocked road means that the conditions gives a max of 0
19:45<@Bjarni>so if somebody hits another car in theory they were speeding
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19:45<SmatZ>yeah, when you break your car because there was hole in the road, then it is your fault, because you didn't drive attentively enough... no matter it was in night without any signs
19:46<+glx>if there's a hole in the road then someone didn't do his job
19:46<SmatZ>someone didn't have money to fix it...
19:46<+glx>we pay taxes for that :)
19:46<@Bjarni>that law applies to curved roads, fog, snow, darkness, rain... basically everything that could result the need for lower speed
19:47<SmatZ>Bjarni: we have this law too
19:47<ln->Bjarni: what's your alcohol limit on rail?
19:47<@Bjarni><SmatZ> yeah, when you break your car because there was hole in the road <-- this is poorly maintained roads and then the people who should maintain it has to pay because it's due to their missing work
19:47<SmatZ>also, it is the most often reason for an accident :)
19:47<SmatZ>Bjarni: yes, but the law says different
19:47<@Bjarni><ln-> Bjarni: what's your alcohol limit on rail? <--- they changed it not long ago to state "the same as when driving a class B (normal) car"
19:48<SmatZ>isn't driving a train much more responsible than driving a car, so shouldn't it have '0' limit?
19:48<@Bjarni>they changed it from "you are not allowed to be so drunk that people can clearly see that you are drunk"
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19:49<@Bjarni>they changed it after a train nearly ended up in the ferry landing... without a ferry in it
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>yay train ferry want that ingame
19:50<@Bjarni>when the train was driving too fast passed the platform (it should stop), it got two emergency brakes at the same time
19:50<+glx><Gonozal_VIII> yay train ferry want that ingame <-- code it then ;)
19:50<@Bjarni>car crew didn't like the situation
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19:50<Gonozal_VIII>can't code good enough for that
19:50<ln->last time i suggested ferries that could carry trains for OTTD, some australian told me that there are no such ferries in the world.
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>well... not for austrailian 1000000000 km long trains^^
19:51<@Bjarni>that very same harbour... at one time a guy drove onto the ramp when there was no ferry and due the weight of his train (two locomotives and no cars), the cables broke and the train ended up in the water
19:51<+glx>they have road trains
19:51<@Bjarni>that was two freight engines with V20 engines
19:51<@Bjarni>and brand new engines
19:51<@Bjarni>.... not good
19:52<SmatZ>hope he was insurred
19:52<+glx>not worse than the A340-600 last week
19:52<@Bjarni>actually at that time the railroad had this policy "we don't make accidents so we will not pay for insurance"
19:53<ln->wtf happened to the airbus?
19:53<SmatZ>I wonder what happened to his family
19:53<ln->or rather: why?
19:53<@Bjarni>they had that policy for more than 100 years but not anymore
19:53<@Bjarni>what A340 incident?
19:54<Gonozal_VIII>"we don't make accidents so we will not pay for insurance" <-- DB has that too
19:55<@Bjarni>I think it's cheaper that way
19:55<@Bjarni>for big railroads
19:55<ln->probably is
19:56<@Bjarni>small railroads needs to be insured. It's the law... you can't drive a train unless you can be sure to pay a certain amount in case of an accident and small railroads has to get help to ensure that
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20:00<@Bjarni>time for bed
20:00<@Bjarni>well way past that :P
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 20 00:00:09 2007