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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-11-25

---Logopened Sun Nov 25 00:00:08 2007
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02:59<Wolf01>hello
02:59<Gonozal_VIII>hi
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04:01<skidd13>Hi
04:01<Gonozal_VIII>hi
04:08<Wolf01>hi
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05:35<SmatZ>hello
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05:51<|fjb|>Moin
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06:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11519 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: enumerization and cleanup of NetworkLobbyWindow in network_gui.cpp
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07:14<Hendikins>Nothing like non-timetabled trains to make an otherwise boring Sunday at work somewhat interesting.
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07:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r11520 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm: -Fix: [OSX] The cocoa video driver let the mouse cursor escape the window when using rmb scrolling. Thanks ln- for pointing this out and providing a fix.
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08:21<ln->\o/
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09:02<ln->who thinks the double-s in TTD font is a beta and not ß?
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09:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r11521 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: [OSX] Check what the running os version is in a cleaner way.
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10:00<PinguTux>hi guys! i have written a patch that brings back the selection of different screen resolutions on mac
10:00<Gonozal_VIII>stupid 12h radio clock... i just woke up and thought it was 4am on monday and i slept through the whole sunday instead of some hours
10:00<PinguTux>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1483
10:00<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: so fix your clock?
10:00<Tefad>i use my mobile for timekeeping
10:01<PinguTux>anyone interested?
10:01<Tefad>it's quite accurate, auto-syncs too.
10:01<Tefad>reboots for unknown reasons sometimes though . ..
10:04<Gonozal_VIII>my laptop clock is synced and shows 24h time but the laptop was off and i my radio clock should show a little red dot when it's pm but there was a power outage some days ago and i set it 12 hours wrong...
10:04<skidd13>PinguTux: Ask egladil. He's the one who works on that
10:04<PinguTux>skidd13: k, thx
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10:11<Sacro>PinguTux: send it to Bjarni :)
10:11<@Bjarni>send what?
10:11<Gonozal_VIII>a patch for screen resolutions on mac
10:12<PinguTux>yes, here: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1483
10:12<@Bjarni>oh the thing on flyspray that I have open right now
10:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11522 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix: The scrollbar of the network gui could run out of bounds
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11:22<dihedral>hi
11:22<Gonozal_VIII>hi
11:23<dihedral>helo Bjarni :-) (1 hour later ;-) )
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11:32<@Bjarni>oh what a nice highlight
11:32<@Bjarni>:p
11:32<@Bjarni>hi
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12:08<ln->i'm watching a TNG episode with "John Locke" as an admiral
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12:11<Gege>good day
12:11<Gege>any hungarian fan here?
12:14<@Bjarni>no
12:15<@Bjarni>we don't prefer Hungarians over other nationalities :P
12:15<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
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12:16<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: btw it was you who talked about syncronised TV, right?
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12:17<@Bjarni>I think I know something that even beats German synchronisation
12:17<Gonozal_VIII>what?
12:17<@Bjarni>Swedish children TV broadcasted in Denmark... it's not like Swedish is that hard to understand but they still add Danish talk to it
12:18<@Bjarni>but...
12:18<@Bjarni>they use a single woman for it so everybody gets the same voice
12:18<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
12:18<@Bjarni>then she tells who says what and that results in longer lines so she talks over sound fxs and stuff
12:18<@Bjarni>and leaves stuff out due to lack of time
12:19<@Bjarni>they didn't remove the Swedish talk either
12:19<@Bjarni>I don't think you can get much lower than that
12:19<Gonozal_VIII>good for the children, they learn to filter information :-)
12:19<ln->Bjarni: what do you think about this music video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ch_pokzgTIc
12:19<@Bjarni>I can remember that I never liked that woman
12:20<@Bjarni>later I learned that as an adult I don't like how that woman behaves
12:20<fjb>:-) That is pretty low. Hard to beat.
12:21<Gonozal_VIII>bah ln that's crap
12:21<ln->Gonozal_VIII: it isn't, and you didn't understand it.
12:21<@Bjarni>ln-: looks like a budget video but somehow it's very fitting
12:21<@Bjarni>beats some other music videos
12:22<ln->Bjarni: the funny thing is that it's really produced by the tv-avgift authority.
12:22<@Bjarni>"Nordens Billigaste". <--- yeah.... sure looks like it
12:23<ln->those two artists are relatively well known and have performed as rabbit and cat many, many times before.
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12:24<@Bjarni><ln-> Bjarni: the funny thing is that it's really produced by the tv-avgift authority. <-- here they spent a fortune building a new building that's way too expensive and costs just keeps on increasing and it's a crap building that's way too cold because the wind goes right in and such
12:24<@Bjarni>and they keep talking about how they want more money to make TV :s
12:25<@Bjarni>but luckily the politicians says that they can't just get more money from the viewers because they fuck up their economy by poor management and they still demand the same quality of TV. There is an interesting future for the TV in Denmark
12:27<dihedral>i can remember someone who would 'ban' others for posting youtube links ;-)
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12:27<@Bjarni>ln-: watching a 2nd time actually makes it kind of awesome :D
12:27<@Bjarni>dihedral: he isn't here so I discarded the ban rule
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12:28<dihedral>topic: And please, no YouTube.com Posting
12:28<dihedral>:-P
12:28<@Bjarni>but the word "ban" isn't part of it anymore
12:28<dihedral>no - it's a lot politer now
12:28<dihedral>just nobody will pay attention to it :-P
12:29<@Bjarni>now it's like: "don't do it" (somebody does it anyway) "ok, but don't do it again"
12:29<dihedral>yes - a bit like english and us police men
12:30<@Bjarni>it's like the Danish law regarding escaping prison
12:30<dihedral>british police man: "Stop!, or i'll say 'stop!' again!"
12:30<dihedral>us police man: <bank> "Stop!"
12:30<dihedral>*<bang>
12:30<dihedral>:-S
12:30<Rotonen>where is the root of this anti-youtube? (or is it just to avoid unnecessary attention catching stuff from the web in general?)
12:30<@Bjarni>if you escape and is caught then you aren't supposed to get an additional penalty... but naturally you have to be there until you served your time
12:30<HerzogDeXtE1>isnt this channel about openttd? :D
12:31<dihedral>what is that, ottd...
12:31<dihedral>:-P
12:31<HerzogDeXtE1>^^
12:31<dihedral>this is a youtube posting channel
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12:31<HerzogDeXtE1>;D dihedral i dont think so
12:31<@Bjarni>Rotonen: it originates from the fact that youtube didn't work on TrueLight's computer but now he resigned
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12:31<Rotonen>kind of selfish, but ok :)
12:32<dihedral>it's kinda annoying if everybody posts their funny vids here
12:32<@Bjarni> <HerzogDeXtE1> isnt this channel about openttd? :D <-- it's a waste of bandwidth not to use it when nobody talks about OpenTTD :P
12:32<dihedral>lol
12:32<HerzogDeXtEr>okay Bjarni :D it just was a joke...
12:32<Rotonen>but by talking here you make all the routers inbetween draw more power and hence warm the globe more!
12:33<HerzogDeXtEr>lol
12:33[~]fjb thinks about leaving irc now.
12:33<HerzogDeXtEr>xD
12:33<Prof_Frink>YouTube's alright, non-youtube flash places less
12:33<Prof_Frink>so
12:34<Rotonen>although there are some really solid flash animations around there
12:34<Rotonen>mostly the scene died at around 2003
12:34<@Bjarni>Rotonen: well... if you consider the rooter heating to be a major concern compared to say the merchant navy then I would like to see your reasons for thinking so
12:34<Prof_Frink>'caue I *know* youtube links have to be opened in fx rather than konqui, whereas with $videositeoftheday I don't
12:35<fjb>Flash has one security hole after the other. I don't understand why people are always using flash. Especially for movies there are many better formats.
12:35<Rotonen>Bjarni: just the direct link between power consumption and electricity production
12:35<Rotonen>although there are renewal sources, non-carbon sources
12:35<Rotonen>and not really going into that discussion :)
12:35<Rotonen>fjb: well for animations it is a good format
12:35<dihedral>Rotonen: sinse when is a network packet cpu intense? :-P
12:36<@Bjarni>besides... are you sure that routers use more power when really active. Remember that the LED turns off for a really short time when transferring. Can you prove that the less power to the LED is less than the extra spent on handling the package?
12:36<Rotonen>dihedral: if the network hardware is decent, it won't go through the cpu of it at all
12:37<Rotonen>Bjarni: i can prove more throughput of same type equals more power required
12:37<dihedral>Rotonen: does that not depend on the router setup?
12:37<Rotonen>yes, pretty much
12:37<Rotonen>but i'm just fairly certain that talking here consumers more power around the world than idling here
12:37<fjb>Hm, many modern network chips use a MIPS core...
12:37[~]Sacro sits and wastes electric
12:38<dihedral>wait Sacro i'll join you
12:38<@Bjarni>Sacro: you are a waste in general so there is nothing new there :P
12:38<dihedral>LOL
12:38<Sacro>actually, we got told at uni to use UK servers rather than Europe/Asian/US ones
12:38[~]Prof_Frink plugs Sacro into the electric
12:38<fjb>I have a cheap network card, that has more CPU power than my older PCs.
12:38<Sacro>as it saves electric and lowers our carbon footprint
12:38<Prof_Frink>Sacro: That's to save on long-dista
12:38<Prof_Frink>nce call charges
12:38<dihedral>just iptables does not run in the network chip
12:39<Prof_Frink>Where are these enter characters coming from?
12:39<Rotonen>Sacro: i think the real cause is indeed to save on upload traffic
12:39<fjb>iptables? What crap is that? :-)
12:39<@Bjarni>at uni we have the servers on the intranet. It saves bandwidth
12:39<@Bjarni>and it also saves time when somebody decides to send a huge file
12:40<dihedral>at uni at uni
12:40<dihedral>...
12:40<dihedral>get a job
12:40<Rotonen>pretty much any IT department should do that, yes
12:40<dihedral>:-P
12:40<Rotonen>naw, studying is far too much fun
12:40<Rotonen>although i do have a job too :(
12:40<Prof_Frink>s/study/drink/
12:40<@Bjarni>we also have a tucows mirror on the intranet
12:40<Rotonen>Prof_Frink: some things do not even need to be said :P
12:41<Prof_Frink>http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/21755/1196012098/train.gif
12:41<Rotonen>Bjarni: is that really useful or is it rather a remnant of the past?
12:41<@Bjarni>but I don't drink... should that mean that studying isn't fun or ?
12:42<@Bjarni> <Rotonen> Bjarni: is that really useful or is it rather a remnant of the past? <--- it was really useful when I needed to download a huge file and the speed was in MB/s all the time
12:42<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: your rail network sucks... it looks like your high speed steam train is slowed to a crawl
12:43|-|Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-140-70.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
12:45<@Bjarni>anyway I don't think it's a huge concern that packages for IRC should create global warming due to extra load on the routers as I'm pretty sure the routers will not really be able to tell the difference
12:47<@Bjarni>Rotonen: if you want to do something good for the environment then stop farting and burping. Methane gas in farts and burps hurts the atmosphere more than CO2
12:47<Prof_Frink>Rotonen: Or, light your own farts.
12:47<@Bjarni>you should also stop breathing because you exhale CO2
12:47<Rotonen>in the spirit of the previous conversation in total: your argumentation is far too thorough and well versed
12:47<@Bjarni>basically you should stop living but you shouldn't die either because it's also bad to rot
12:48<@Bjarni>or burn
12:48<Rotonen>diving into the sun would probably be the best
12:48<Rotonen>more hydrogen for the star to burn and prolong our system
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12:48<Prof_Frink>Yes, 'cause the momentum transfer would push us away from the sun and cause the Earth to cool
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12:49<@Bjarni>but then you need to escape the gravity of our own planet and to do so you take up energy that will also hurt the environment
12:49<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Solar powered rocket.
12:50<Rotonen>the most ridiculous thing is that the could actually build one in the near future
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12:50<@Bjarni>but it hurts the environment to produce solar powered rockets
12:50|-|KUDr [KUDr@mazanec1.netbox.cz] has joined #openttd
12:51<@Bjarni>we need something like a solar powered cannon to get rid of you without pollution and that we can reuse for the next environmental hazard
12:52<SpComb>don't forget the gravity: www.conservegravity.org
12:52<Gonozal_VIII>[18:50:11] Rotonen: the most ridiculous thing is that the could actually build one in the near future <-- a solar powered rocket? how should that work?
12:52<SpComb>I wonder how much gravity talking on IRC uses up
12:52<SpComb>I guess it depends on the altitude difference between the participants
12:52<@Bjarni> <SpComb> I wonder how much gravity talking on IRC uses up <-- it depends on the font size
12:53<Prof_Frink>SpComb: So /that/'s why patchbloke left us
12:53<@Bjarni>and what kind of paper you use for printing your logs
12:53<Rotonen>Gonozal_VIII: they're studying into proving or disproving http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_Theory and so far they've proven more than disproven
12:54<SpComb>Bjarni: http://photos.marttila.de/screenshots/irssi_font_size.png
12:54<SpComb>perhaps I should note at this point that it's kind of hard to read text with this font size
12:55<SpComb>and the resolution in terms of rows/cols in really big, meaning more data transferred over SSH
12:55<Prof_Frink>SpCrazy
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12:57<@Bjarni>I don't get the conserve gravity idea...
12:59<@Bjarni>it's like saying that we should stop drinking because the oceans might run dry
12:59<Rotonen>an absurd counter movement to overzealous carbon conservists?
12:59<SpComb>shush
13:01<@Bjarni>carbon conservists?
13:01<Sacro>hey KUDr :)
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13:02<@Bjarni>you mean those guys who thinks carbon should be in the ground where it has always been (in their lifetime)?
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13:02<SpComb>there's carbon in my bones
13:02<@Bjarni>currently we have access to enough coal to power our civilisation for 300 years
13:03<@Bjarni>so we have a 300 year deadline for finding an alternative
13:03<@Bjarni>the deadline for oil is much shorter but we can always just revert to coal
13:04<@Bjarni>we can even use coal to produce oil if we like. It's just not very efficient
13:04<Sacro>not the way i like to live
13:04[~]Sacro melts SpComb down
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13:04<@Bjarni><Sacro> not the way i like to live <-- what do you mean by that?
13:05<Sacro>i like to burn things
13:05<Gonozal_VIII>setting free all the carbon that has been stored for millions of years won't destroy the earth but it will cause changes... we will have to adapt to that changes and that will cost us money... the trick is to predict those costs and balance them with the investment in alternate energy sources
13:05<fjb>Bjarni: Should the people in DK not slowly start to develop submarine houses?
13:06<@Bjarni>Sacro: you are born a century too late... in 1907 they wanted a whole lot of people to shovel coal into steam engines... maybe even more earlier as the steam engines were less efficient
13:06<Sacro>i want to work on the railways :(
13:07<@Bjarni><fjb> Bjarni: Should the people in DK not slowly start to develop submarine houses? <-- actually the ground below Denmark was under a lot of pressure from the ice 10k years ago. The ground is like a huge sponge so it expands when the pressure is gone so the land is actually rising
13:07<SpComb>better polish up those coal-powered steam engines in preperation for when the oil dries up
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13:07<@Bjarni><Sacro> i want to work on the railways :( <-- they have an electric future
13:08<Sacro>Bjarni: i know
13:08<fjb>Bjarni: You are lucky then.
13:08<Sacro>i want electric and diesel :(
13:08<SpComb>but meh, an oil production shortage would have severe effects upon the global economy
13:08<Prof_Frink>Not if you play UKRS ;)
13:08<SpComb>it's about more than suddenly, one day not being able to fill up at the gas station anymore
13:08<@Bjarni><SpComb> but meh, an oil production shortage would have severe effects upon the global economy <-- yeah... the Norwegians would actually have to work
13:08<Prof_Frink>Norway!
13:09<hylej>forget norway
13:09<hylej>kenya \o
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>kenya!
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>^^
13:09<fjb>And US would have less wars. :-)
13:09<@Bjarni>I try but it's damn hard
13:09<Sacro>ooh, a 142 for BVE
13:09<SpComb>is there oil in kenya?
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>that's a flash loop
13:09<Sacro>possibly the crappiest DMU in the country
13:09[~]Prof_Frink 125s Sacro
13:10[~]hylej throws a F40PH at Sacro
13:10<@Bjarni>impressive
13:10<@Bjarni>not only do you guys appear to be rather strong, but you also have the right rolling stock near you
13:10<@Bjarni>and can aim pretty well over huge distances
13:11[~]Sacro goes down to the air raid shelter
13:11<hylej>we're awesome like that
13:11[~]Bjarni watches as Sacro drowns
13:11[~]Prof_Frink throws a TBM at Sacro
13:11<@Bjarni>people just claimed the sea to be raising
13:12<@Bjarni>but... it's an open question if that will really happen
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13:12<Gonozal_VIII>but throwing train engines over huge distances wastes lots of gravity!
13:12<@Bjarni>lol
13:13<@Bjarni>then you better get to the gravity station as soon as possible
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13:15<Gonozal_VIII>i've already chained myself to the floor so i won't float away :-)
13:15<@Bjarni>but seriously... if the global temperature raises then some ice will melt but hotter air will be able to contain more water. It's still an open question if the result of this will be raising or lowering sea levels
13:15<@Bjarni>besides melting floating ice will not make the water level rise
13:16<fjb>But there is much ice on the land.
13:16<Gonozal_VIII>as i said... it won't destroy the earth or kill millions of people and so on but it will change some things and that will cause costs
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13:16<@Bjarni><fjb> But there is much ice on the land. <--- there is lot's of ocean to fill up. Imagine how much water it takes to raise the Pacific 1 cm
13:17<@Bjarni>and if you increase the temperature enough to melt so much ice then the air will contain more water
13:17<Gonozal_VIII>somewhere i read that the greenland ice would be 5m for global sea level... i don't know how well calculated that was
13:17<fjb>The bigger problem is the raising temperature in the mountains.
13:18<Rotonen>yes, that leaves a lot of people without water
13:19<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> somewhere i read that the greenland ice would be 5m for global sea level... i don't know how well calculated that was <-- Greenland is big but still...
13:19<@Bjarni>besides it's unlikely that all of it will melt in the near future
13:20<@Bjarni>it has been there for ages and it tells us the story of the planet's temperatures and what was in the air
13:20<Gonozal_VIII>they didn't fear that it all melts but that it breaks apart and slides into the ocean
13:20<Rotonen>well the problem is the water acting as a lubricant and sliding it all fairly rapidly into the ocean
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13:21<@Bjarni>drilling in the ice in Greenland has told us that the temperature has dropped noteworthy compared to 1000 years ago
13:21<@Bjarni>while it was much colder 400 years ago than it is today
13:22<@Bjarni>it also tells us that around 1880 the temperature dropped rapidly (most likely due to the eruption of Krakatora)
13:23<@Bjarni>while it was much colder than usual the scientists started to measure temperature and when the planet recovered the scientists noticed an increase in temperature (go figure)
13:23<Rotonen>the temperature is not high, yes, but the rate at which it is rising, is new
13:23<@Bjarni><Rotonen> the temperature is not high, yes, but the rate at which it is rising, is new <-- are you sure? It looks like it will just continue to rise at the same speed as it did the last 100 years
13:24<Rotonen>have you actually taken a look at the raw data yourself?
13:24<@Bjarni>that is if you look at scientific evidence rather than what Al Gore pulls out of his hat (with no evidence or theory to support it)
13:25<@Bjarni>ALL scientists agreeds that there are nothing to support what Al Gore talks about
13:25<Rotonen>well not all :)
13:25<@Bjarni>well... he might pay a few to do so but nobody that aren't paid by him
13:25<Rotonen>but a healthy majority of oil funded ones, yes
13:25<Rotonen>and no, not going to find a non-affiliated one soon
13:27<@Bjarni>30 years ago the scientists claimed that we were heading for a new ice age
13:27<@Bjarni>now we will drown
13:27<@Bjarni>and boil
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13:27<@Bjarni>I wonder what they will say in 30 years
13:30<Gonozal_VIII>if the water rises, they will build higher dikes, if there will be less water available to drink, they will pay more for it, if it gets colder they will spend more on heating... nothing we can't adapt to... but we have to calculate if it's cheaper to change behaviour now or to adapt to a changing environment
13:30<@Bjarni>but the theory about CO2 is a good one for politicians. "black smoke is bad" and they can measure it and put taxes on it
13:30<@Bjarni>so they appear green to the voters
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13:31<@Bjarni>so the theory of CO2 turned into a political case without real scientific proof
13:33<@Bjarni>and now it turned into a case where "it's common knowledge" that global warming is caused by CO2 so the fact that the sun is hyper active and more active than ever recorded before is discarded as a reason for global warming
13:34<Rotonen>well the increase WAS measured.. :)
13:34<Rotonen>just that it's in the wrong order of magnitude to be the culprit
13:35<@Bjarni>but nobody can tell that the impact of CO2 has the right order of magnitude
13:36<Rotonen>it's the only known factor so far which has an impact, so it's easy to blame
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13:37<@Bjarni>actually the original theory about CO2 is disproven because it tells that a certain layer in the atmosphere should keep the heat. That layer is actually cooling down
13:38<Gonozal_VIII>reflect, not keep :-)
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13:38<@Bjarni>there is no question that we should take care of the environment but.... there is no scientific evidence that whatever the politicians comes up with will have an effect
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13:40<@Bjarni>like the concept of cleaning the smoke from a coal powered powerplant for CO2 and putting it in tanks. We know that it can be done by testing it but we know that it takes 30% of the produced power to do so and then what to do with the stored CO2... the idea is to pump it into the ground and pray that it will stay there
13:40<@Bjarni>personally I consider a project like that a waste of money and resources compared to what else we could have done with the same resources
13:40<Gonozal_VIII>that's stupid^^
13:41<@Bjarni>also it will not remove everything from the smoke... I think it was like 85% of the CO2 or something like that
13:42<SERVEPRO>all the people in siberia welcome global warming
13:42<@Bjarni>we can stop all the powerplants in the country and it wouldn't matter because other countries wouldn't do so
13:43<@Bjarni>and can you imagine China who is building coal powered powerplants right now would welcome an expense they can't pay and an output reduction of 30% for something as CO2 reduction?
13:44<Rotonen>SERVEPRO: well it makes the terrain unpassable when it melts.. :)
13:44<@Bjarni>in reality we have less options than we have in theory
13:44<Sacro>ooh, VS2008
13:45<@Bjarni>yeah... in the arctic regions they prefer below 0°C temperatures because otherwise everything will melt and their buildings will be submerged into the mud
13:45<SERVEPRO>haha interesting i didn't know that
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>storing co2 as a gas won't work... you could only try to store it with burrying plants or something like that...
13:45<SERVEPRO>but you are right, china will burn all the coal
13:46<SERVEPRO>and all the oil they can buy
13:46<@Bjarni>not to mention that snow below... -28°C (I think) will not melt when hitting stuff so it's not wet like we know snow and it will not join together in big piles like the snow we know
13:47<@Bjarni>it's like sugar or something... only small "grains" that will not stick together and is easy to move around
13:47<SERVEPRO>usually snow around here freezes together into chunks like big rocks
13:47<Rotonen>afaik -32 in some sane humidity, but still there's variation
13:47<@Bjarni><SERVEPRO> but you are right, china will burn all the coal <-- what we could do would be to help China to increase power output by say 10% (would still be less efficient than our power plants) without using more coal
13:48<Rotonen>how the crystals have formed, what is the humidity
13:48<SERVEPRO>that will be helpful, but aren't they still going to burn the coal until it is all gone
13:49<@Bjarni> <SERVEPRO> usually snow around here freezes together into chunks like big rocks <-- no that's not the snow, that's snow that melts for a sec and then freezes as ice. If you prevent it from melting for a sec then the "glue" is gone
13:49<SERVEPRO>i dont know frankly, i just dont see them moving to solar or something even if we do
13:49<@Bjarni>snow itself will not pack together in big balls
13:49<SERVEPRO>hmmm, cool
13:49<@Bjarni>you can't make snowballs with really cold snow either
13:49<SERVEPRO>awwwh =(
13:50<Rotonen>well you can't really make snowballs when it's more than -5 celcius anyway
13:50<@Bjarni>that would be like taking some sugar and presume to make a ball out of it
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13:50<@Bjarni>bbl
13:50<Gonozal_VIII>[19:49:40] Bjarni: you can't make snowballs with really cold snow either <-- you can with enough pressure... but that's no fun
13:50<SERVEPRO>white sugar ou brown ;)
13:51<Gonozal_VIII>ok, technically it's not cold snow anymore then...
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>we sometimes have -25° here but it doesn't snow when it's that cold...
13:54<Rotonen>also making snowballs just wets your mittens and ruins the waterproof leathery ones
13:55<Gonozal_VIII>real pros use bare hands
13:55<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
13:55<Gonozal_VIII>much more control then
13:55<SERVEPRO>yes, protection clothing is for the weakk
13:56<Prof_Frink>See, I just use rocks
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
13:56<Rotonen>well, in a serious snowfight, which might take hours, bare hands are not the choice of winners
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13:57<SERVEPRO>it depends whether you are allowed to wear clothing in the snow fight or not
13:57<Prof_Frink>Oh, if we're taking things seriously, you can't beat an AK47
13:57<Gonozal_VIII>you don't want to make a snowfight when it takes some minutes of preparation to get a single ball to stick together anyways....
13:58<Gonozal_VIII>you just throw some ice chunks then^^
13:59<Rotonen>Prof_Frink: well the modern all-metal variants with superior sights might have a significant leverage in an average firefight
13:59<Rotonen>the original had 2 faults: poor sights and the selector made a click
14:00<Prof_Frink>Rotonen: All metal and freezing temperatures may be a bad thing if you want to be able to put it down
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>but cheap and reliable :-)
14:01<Rotonen>Prof_Frink: well handles are customarily made from plastic these days, but "all metal" as in the integral parts
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>just be sure to have dry hands all the time, shouldn't have a problem then
14:03<Gonozal_VIII>yay nightly time
14:05<Gonozal_VIII>now they want to clone trees :S
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>attack of the clone trees? is that a mixture of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings?
14:16<Gonozal_VIII>they want to make an entire new forrest out of clones of some very old redwood tree
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14:16<Prof_Frink>Pfft
14:16<Prof_Frink>The New Forest is over there <--
14:17<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think that's a good idea... a forrest with lots of genetically identical trees would be very vulnerable
14:19<@Bjarni>back
14:20<@Bjarni>yeah we would want to have different trees so if one is hit with a disease then there is a chance that the one next to it will survive
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14:21<@Bjarni>btw I just remembered some facts about China and powerplants. They are building new powerplants (mainly coal powered) so they increase their power output by the power output of England every year
14:21<@Bjarni>they aren't very efficient (like 30% or something)
14:21<@Bjarni>a standard Siemens power plant has an efficiency of 38%
14:22<@Bjarni>we have the most efficient in the world (49%)
14:22<@Bjarni>and that's pure electricity
14:23<@Bjarni>we use the cooling water as a heating source so we actually use more than 90% of the energy in the coal
14:23<Gonozal_VIII>is that with fuel cell technology or something?
14:23<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> is that with fuel cell technology or something? <-- fuel cells has an efficiency of around 25% as it is now and I'm talking about coal powered powerplants
14:24<@Bjarni>the trick is to use as high pressure as possible and they use somewhere around 300 atm
14:24<@Bjarni>so a single litre of steam is really full of energy
14:24<@Bjarni>also the burner is constantly tweaked for max efficiency (airflow and so on)
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7891.html
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14:26<@Bjarni>But during the conversion of one form of energy to another, about 65% of the coal's energy is lost, says Weibel. <-- fits with the description of a Siemens standard powerplant that uses 38%
14:26<@Bjarni>(and that's a modern one)
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>that's because it is the description of a modern coal powerplant
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2>38% is already a lot...
14:27<@Bjarni>but it's not as good as we can build them
14:28<@Bjarni>but Siemens will have to support and repair the plants after they are build and then they will not dare to push for really high efficiency like we do with our homemade powerplants
14:30<@Bjarni>I believe that the fuel cells has a future but it's in the future, not right now
14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>any future has a path that leads there
14:31<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not make *snap* and suddenly it comes
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14:31<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=4962 <-- there they write about 50%
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14:33<@Bjarni>The program's goal is to develop a multi-megawatt SOFC power system, 100 megawatts and larger, with at least 50 percent overall efficiency <--- "goal"
14:33<Gonozal_VIII>FuelCell Energy recently announced an electrical efficiency milestone of 56 percent for the DFC/T power plant, a record for a combined cycle sub-megawatt fuel cell power plant.
14:34<@Bjarni>hmm
14:35<@Bjarni>looks interesting
14:35<@Bjarni>I wonder how well it works
14:35|-|Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-89-217-52-118.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:35<@Bjarni>I mean the biproducts
14:36<@Bjarni>today we have SO2 and NOx as serious issues when burning coal
14:36<@Bjarni>looks like it can take care of the NOx issue by using a lower temperature
14:37<@Bjarni>but what will happen with the sulfur in the coal and will it do anything else that we didn't expect and don't want it to do
14:39<Sacro>sulPHer
14:39<Sacro>damn yanks
14:41<@Bjarni>yanks?
14:41<Sacro>americans
14:41<@Bjarni>o_O
14:42|-|Sacro kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [such an insult was uncalled for]
14:42|-|Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-39-241.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:43<Sacro>D:
14:43<@Bjarni>I thought the same thing
14:43<Eddi|zuHause2>but shouldn't it be sulphUr?
14:43|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
14:43<Rotonen>any more capitalizations available for emphasizing?
14:43<@Bjarni>I try to write in your language and because I make a single spelling mistake you show up with a mighty insult
14:43<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, the real name is "Schwefel" ;)
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>A Yankee is someone of United States origin or heritage.
14:44<@Bjarni>hence the insult
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
14:45<@Bjarni>I'm not related to anybody in USA
14:45<Eddi|zuHause2>over how many edges do you count?
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11524 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1485]: assertion when tram reversed at a station.
14:46<@Bjarni>my granddad once got a letter from a lawyer that the single person from the family who went there died without family so now all his cousins in Europe got his money
14:46<@Bjarni>it kind of looked like the American dream happened for him because it was a decent amount of money and my granddad bought a brand new car for the money
14:46<@Bjarni>while wondering "who was this guy. I never heard of him"
14:47<@Bjarni>that's basically how well related I am to USA... one guy nobody heard about and who died without getting any children
14:51<Sacro>Rotonen: emphasiSing
14:52<Sacro>Bjarni: i said "bloody yanks" cos it was them who bastardised the name
14:53<Gonozal_VIII>hmm i like that "o" instead of "ou" stuff they do
14:54|-|Desolator [Desolator@86.126.36.197] has joined #openttd
14:54<Rotonen>Sacro: thank you for the correction, but do save some mercy for the non-natives such as us
14:54<Desolator>h!ola
14:54<Desolator>*hola!
14:54<Gonozal_VIII>hi
14:54<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: yes, they are great in destroying anything and everything...
14:55<Sacro>Rotonen: I am teaching the foreigners how to speak English
14:55<Desolator>could you recommend me a gnu/linux distro? I tried Ubuntu & Xubuntu, but they're quite simple...
14:56<Rubidium>Learning them to speak English, it is rather about writing it.
14:56<Rubidium>Desolator: LFS
14:56<Gonozal_VIII>knoppix :D
14:56|-|Knightmare [~smithj@77-97-50-77.cable.ubr03.cast.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:56<Knightmare>hey guys
14:56<Sacro>Desolator: Arch Linux
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>hi
14:57[~]Sacro <3s it
14:57<Desolator>neah, no livecd stuff, it's slower that a turtle
14:57<Desolator>Sacro: Arch is a bit to...complicated
14:57<@Bjarni><Sacro> Bjarni: i said "bloody yanks" cos it was them who bastardised the name <-- you did it in a way that indicated that you meant that I should be one of those people who vandalise a perfectly good language like English
14:57<Sacro>Desolator: in what way?
14:57<Knightmare>can someone confirm a bug for me...? What do i need to post, my cfg, the sav & what else...?
14:58<Rotonen>arch is a nice distro if you constantly manage to keep it up to date and are not drowned in the infinite configuring of chancing specifications
14:58<Rubidium>start with telling what the 'issue' is?
14:58<@Bjarni>Knightmare: knowing what version you use and what OS would help too
14:58<Desolator>Sacro: how about needing to ask a ton of questions about how to install X & Y, why Z doesn't work, etc. on my first install
14:58<@Bjarni>depending on what the issue is
14:58<Knightmare>i get the NOT_REACHED triggered at line 152 of /compile_farm/openttd/nightly/compile_dir/src/slope.h on XP when using any nightly or 0.6b
14:58<Sacro>Desolator: pacman -S foo
14:58<Prof_Frink>Desolator: Debian.
14:58<hylej>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg/608px-Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg
14:58<Sacro>or pacman -Ss foo to search
14:58<Sacro>hylej: damn pbs
14:59<@Bjarni>Knightmare: ok that is an issue... could you tell when it happens. Is it linked to a specific action or something?
14:59<Rubidium>Knightmare: that would require the savegame and how to reproduce it.
14:59<Knightmare>ok, so this happens when trying to load said savegame. I can post GRFs and such on a server if that helps
15:00<Knightmare>Bjarni: its from main menu trying to load savegame which works ok in 0.5.3
15:00<Rubidium>Knightmare: does *any* nightly also mean the one of today?
15:00<Knightmare>yes just tested tonights and the 0.6RC
15:00<@Bjarni>hylej: that's a good case of what can happen as a result of a brake failure. The teacher put this one on the screen when he was about to talk about train brakes and how to ensure that they work as expected
15:01<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Why not the infamous "Shit!" poster?
15:01<Desolator>0.6RC? Cool! The beta period went over so fast!
15:01<Knightmare>beta, sorry :-*
15:01<@Bjarni>surprisingly only one person was seriously hit... the newspaper seller on the street who got hit in the head
15:01<@Bjarni>and is likely still under the engine when the picture was taken
15:01<Prof_Frink>Ah, it /is/ that one
15:02<Prof_Frink>That'll teach me to look at links before commenting on them.
15:02<Knightmare>affecting all my savegames, tested without "slopes built on" and seems ok
15:02<Gonozal_VIII>driver wasn't hurt?
15:02<@Bjarni> <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Why not the infamous "Shit!" poster? <--- most likely... it's used all over when it comes to train brake safety
15:02[~]Prof_Frink points at his later commentary
15:02<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> driver wasn't hurt? <-- the driver and the fireman jumped off onto the platform before the train derailed because they knew what would happen
15:03<Rubidium>"The train, the quickest way to get into the city"
15:03<@Bjarni>hehe
15:03<Gonozal_VIII>^^
15:03<@Bjarni>this is the main station in the heart of Paris
15:03<Prof_Frink>Maybe he was trying to go on the Undergroud
15:03<@Bjarni>they think it was due to ice in the brakepipe so when the locomotive started braking the wagons didn't
15:04<Rubidium>oh, that's the reason why they have a "Gare du Nord" and a "Gare du Sud" now, that was the old main station ;)
15:04<Knightmare>http://77.97.50.77 if anyone wants to grab my stuff
15:04<@Bjarni>I think this one is the northern one
15:04<Knightmare>it's based on glasgow underground, but i added lots more lines :)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>actually it's gare du nord and gare de l'est
15:05<hylej>no screenshots?
15:05|-|hylej changed nick to hylje
15:05<Rubidium>well, with 0.003 MB/s it won't be very useful
15:06<Knightmare>should be faster now
15:06<@Bjarni>closed your p2p client?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>tuned down $filesharing_tool?
15:07<Knightmare>yeah i was seeding suse 10.3, doh
15:07<Knightmare>http://77.97.50.77/Strathclyde%20Transport%2C%2015th%20Jun%201992.png
15:07<Knightmare>screenie
15:07<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i'd have said that, too :p
15:07<@Bjarni>:D
15:08<Eddi|zuHause2>urgs... 90° turns...
15:08<@Bjarni>when I decided to share the OTTD distributions I didn't have any bandwidth issues
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2>wouldn't it make more sense to have the trains turn around in the station (dead end) instead?
15:09<Knightmare>yeah, it has some poor design details
15:09<@Bjarni>Knightmare: this is totally unrelated to the bug report but... why is there catenary on the signal tile (in the middle)?
15:09<hylje>Eddi|zuHause2: turning place
15:10<Knightmare>think i put elrails instead of normal rails
15:10<Knightmare>i was trying to electrify the system and failing
15:10<Gonozal_VIII>i get that not reached thing too
15:11<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: you are banned :P
15:11<Knightmare>when (if) the game is loaded, there are lots of lines running that have no houses near to them. I put the track down first
15:12<@Bjarni>I think somewhere in Austria there is a guy who got *!*@*.at banned
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>....
15:12<@Bjarni>stealth banning... it simply looks like you are trying to reach files that's not there
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i once banned *.t-dialin.net
15:13<@Bjarni>I once banned *.uk and then Sacro started laughing because I missed him with his .com domain so I banned *.com too
15:13<@Bjarni>in here
15:13<@Bjarni>well
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2>it wouldn't make much sense to ban sacro elsewhere :p
15:13<@Bjarni>but not for long
15:14|-|Desolator [Desolator@86.126.36.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving FTW!]
15:14<Prof_Frink>Why not just ban * and be done with it?
15:14<Knightmare>a good thing would be train depots you can drive through, as the train depot can cause lots of train accidents
15:14<SmatZ>I once banned *!*@* , so nobody could join, I was the master
15:14<@Bjarni><EddizuHause2> it wouldn't make much sense to ban sacro elsewhere :p <-- actually it would make sense to ban him everywhere but that's besides the point
15:15<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: and that was in #i_am_the_master?
15:15<Knightmare>ok, has everyone taken the files they need from me? I dont want to leave http server going so long
15:15<Gonozal_VIII>[21:14:13] Knightmare: a good thing would be train depots you can drive through <-- very new idea, nobody thought about that before ;-)
15:15<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: no, there is Bjarni master
15:15<Knightmare>heh, well, i add +1 vote for it ;)
15:16<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: Unfortunately The Master was defeated by The Doctor
15:16<SmatZ>:-p
15:16<Knightmare>i need to code the car hoist GRF for that scenario before < 1970
15:16<Eddi|zuHause2>Doctor Who?
15:16<Prof_Frink>Badum
15:16<SmatZ>Prof_Frink: I don't know that one :(
15:16<Prof_Frink>(tish)
15:17<SmatZ>#i_am_the_master - yes, I am :)
15:17<@Bjarni>damn right now I forgot his name but our wiki maintainer once managed to ban himself from the wiki so he couldn't log on and unban himself. He wanted to test it and banned himself for 5 minutes. After 5 hours he declared that he needed help as he was still banned
15:17<@Bjarni>--- Cannot join #i_am_the_master (You are banned).
15:17<SmatZ>Bjarni: yes, I am the master
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a real shame they do not broadcast Doctor Who here...
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>the channel bought the rights...
15:18<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: The latest series was pretty shit
15:18<Prof_Frink>Except for one episode
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>and always announces it for the next spring/summer/autumn/winter
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>but never actually show it
15:19<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: Don't blink.
15:19<Prof_Frink>DOn't turn your back, don't look away, and whatever you do, don't blink!
15:19<SmatZ>Bjarni: how did he solve that ban?
15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>format c:
15:20<@Bjarni><SmatZ> Bjarni: how did he solve that ban? <-- server admin had to unban him
15:20<Gonozal_VIII>what if server admin bans himself?^^
15:20<Rubidium>Knightmare: the issue should be solved now
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11525 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp):
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: do not do all kinds of 'updates' for town, waypoint, station and other
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: signs when you haven't converted the map to the 'current' format as that means
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: you are going to read data in the 'old' format when you assume that it is in the
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: 'current' format.
15:20<SmatZ>I wonder what would happen if the server admin would have banned himself
15:20<Knightmare>http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 for anyone interested in the glasgow pics
15:21<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: DB hackery probably
15:22<Gonozal_VIII>so low O_o
15:22<@Bjarni>Knightmare: seen this one? http://www.leverton.org/tunnels/botanic/
15:22<Gonozal_VIII>how do large people fit in there?
15:23<SmatZ>scary
15:23<@Bjarni>they are passengers not people
15:23<Gonozal_VIII>passengers aren't people?
15:23<Ammlller>possible that a client could desync because of different OS?
15:23<hylje>abandoned rails ftw
15:24<Ammlller>only windows clients are connected all the time, other desync after 1min
15:24<Knightmare>clockwork orange is a crazy undergorund
15:24<Knightmare>i use it only occasionaly
15:24<@Bjarni> <Ammlller> possible that a client could desync because of different OS? <-- it's more likely that a client can desync due to a different endianess
15:24<Gonozal_VIII>people is the superclass of passengers :-)
15:25<SmatZ>Ammlller: and the server runs on windows?
15:25<@Bjarni>there is nothing super about passengers
15:25<Ammlller>server runs on linux
15:25<@Bjarni>this is Glasgow, remember?
15:25<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't say that, people are super ;-)
15:25<Ammlller>wait, I have something to check
15:25<@Bjarni>Ammlller: x86?
15:25<Knightmare>Bjarni: i hadnt seen that, no. Looks good tho
15:26<hylje>there's not only one but two underground incomplete metro stations here in helsinki
15:26<@Bjarni>Knightmare: here is the page that I was actually trying to find... this guy makes his way passed the gate and into the platform http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/2002trip/scotland/glasgow2.htm
15:27<@Bjarni>there is a forest down there
15:27<@Bjarni>the botanic garden station has changed into a forest :D
15:27<hylje>why was that line abandoned?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause2><Gonozal_VIII> passengers aren't people? <- soylent green is people
15:27<Knightmare>if they build second circle for 2014 i will need to update this map :D
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
15:28<@Bjarni>I think it was wrong to close the line with the botanic garden (can't remember the line name). It would be nice to have it today
15:28<Ammlller>does it hurt, if a server is not compiled with --enable-dedicated?
15:29<Knightmare>you could ammend my map to add it ;)
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>it's wrong to close any line
15:29<@Bjarni>but the tunnels are still there... they could just go down there and lay new tracks
15:29<@Bjarni>after they used chainsaws to cut the forest away
15:29<Ammlller>it does "only" use more cpu usage, or is there something else?
15:29<hylje>Bjarni: suppose they would need to clean up the base too
15:29<hylje>Bjarni: but semi-vegetated platforms would be kewl
15:30<@Bjarni>that is part of the track laying part
15:30<hylje>i thought getting rid of trees is also a part of that
15:31<@Bjarni>just take a big locomotive and you solve that part
15:32<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammlller: it does not do anything more, you just need more dependencies and get a bigger binary
15:32<@Bjarni>yeah
15:33<@Bjarni>the bigger binary is a huge issue
15:33<Knightmare>http://www.futureglasgow.co.uk/Rail.html for the second line
15:33<Gonozal_VIII>yes.. hard to fit it on a dvd that way...
15:34<hylje>Bjarni: one needs to build the rails before running some locos on it
15:34<@Bjarni>that depends
15:34<@Bjarni>if you reach the end of the tracks with high enough speed then you clear the forest in front of the track
15:34<Knightmare>do i need to do anything else with this bug, and where should i be reporting it..?
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>you need a track laying train that has wheels in the front part :-)
15:38<@Bjarni>hylje posted a link that shows that you are demanding too much
15:39|-|Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
15:40<@Bjarni>http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/gg101.jpg <-- as you can see the need for tracks is highly overrated
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>yes... you'll get rid of the trees that way.. but then you have a huge chunk of metal lying around there instead
15:42<Knightmare>ah
15:42<dihedral>Bjarni: correct me if i am wrong, but amd and ppc use same endianness?
15:42<SmatZ>Bjarni: what is that?
15:42<Knightmare>maybe i should scale down my metro efforts :D
15:42<@Bjarni>a GG1
15:42<SmatZ>some poor, dead train
15:43<@Bjarni>PRR 4876 in 1953 in Washington DC
15:43<@Bjarni><SmatZ> some poor, dead train <-- it survived and wasn't withdrawn until 1984
15:43<dihedral>Bjarni: that was with regard to desyncs on the mz games
15:44<@Bjarni><dihedral> Bjarni: correct me if i am wrong, but amd and ppc use same endianness? <-- PPC is big endian and AMD is little endian
15:44<SmatZ>dihedral: interesting... I though ppc uses BE and x86/amd64 LE, but it seems ppc can switch to LE too
15:44<dihedral>Mucht has AMD 64 X2
15:44<SmatZ>Bjarni: :)
15:44<dihedral>Osai has G5
15:44<dihedral>i have G4
15:45<@Bjarni>all PPC are big endian
15:45<dihedral>all AMD i take it are be
15:45<@Bjarni>except the 400 series that has a little endian mode so the software controls what endianess they have
15:45<SmatZ>Bjarni: maybe wiki is wrong - "Most PowerPC chips switch endianness via a bit in the MSR (Machine State Register), with a second bit provided to allow the OS to run with a different endianness"
15:45<@Bjarni>Apple used the 600, 700 and 900 series
15:45<dihedral>ok - but the AMD64 X2
15:46<@Bjarni>SmatZ: what wiki?
15:46<@Bjarni>where?
15:46<SmatZ>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC#Endian-modes
15:46<@Bjarni>well
15:46<dihedral>Bjarni: i was in the game with an AMD XP 2400+ and the PPC G4
15:47<dihedral>and i did not desync with my amd
15:47<dihedral>Mucht desynced though with his
15:47<@Bjarni>anyway whenever an Apple OS runs on a PPC it runs in big endian mode
15:47<Mucht>at the same time as Osai...
15:47<dihedral>yes
15:47<dihedral>all was at the same time
15:47<dihedral>watching the same town
15:47<SmatZ>Bjarni: most likely
15:48<@Bjarni>G3 and G4 use reading in reversed byte order or switch endianess in hardware rather than software. It's a bit slower than normal read but it's way faster than software conversion
15:48<dihedral>Bjarni: should i not have desynced then with my amd?
15:48<@Bjarni>for some reason this feature is not available in G5...
15:48<dihedral>oh
15:48<dihedral>wow
15:49<@Bjarni>but then again G5 has a lot of other cool features
15:49<@Bjarni>like two ALUs
15:49<dihedral>but then it got too warm to be put into the powerbooks :-P
15:49<@Bjarni>an endian conversion isn't a big issue in OpenTTD anyway
15:49<ln->bigger than it should be
15:49<dihedral>then why would *nix based os's desync
15:49<dihedral>and win not
15:50<@Bjarni>I mean it's not done in the game, only when loading/saving and other times when time isn't a real issue
15:51<@Bjarni>dihedral: here is the rule for endian related desyncs: if there is an endian issue then big endian and little endian will do something different with the same input
15:51<@Bjarni>since they do something different then somebody will desync
15:51<dihedral>makes sense
15:51<@Bjarni>and that will be everybody doing something that the server didn't do
15:51<dihedral>yes
15:51<dihedral>sure
15:52<dihedral>but if you say that osx runs in BE mode on a G4
15:52<@Bjarni>so basically the computers that desyncs will be the computers that use a different endianess than the server
15:52<dihedral>and amd is BE
15:52<@Bjarni>G4 is BE
15:52<@Bjarni>AMD is LE
15:52<dihedral>sorry - my bad
15:52<@Bjarni>AMD is designed to execute windows and windows is hardcoded LE
15:53<@Bjarni>OSX for PPC is hardcoded BE
15:53<dihedral>and linux on AMD
15:53<@Bjarni>OSX for intel macs is hardcoded LE
15:54<@Bjarni>because of that you will find a few (one?) ifdef in the OSX specific files depending on endianess
15:54<ln->dihedral: where the hell did you get the idea that AMD is BE?
15:54<dihedral>yes ok, so both the g4 and g5 desynced
15:54<@Bjarni>basically it's #ifdef big ending then set big endian flag in sound driver
15:54<dihedral>but out of 2 amd's only one desynced
15:54<@Bjarni><dihedral> but out of 2 amd's only one desynced <-- this clearly showed that it's not an endian issue
15:55<dihedral>so - how could one find out what _is_ the issue?
15:56<dihedral>unless of course there were an endianess diff in amx64 x2 and amd xp 2400
15:58<ln->there is no endianness difference between amds.
15:59<SmatZ>maybe some newgrf problem, like InteractiveRandom() used where Random() should be used, or rendering affecting some newgrf register that is then used to switch to Random() etc...
15:59<SmatZ>I saw a lot of desyncs while new industry was built, but that was probably fixed
15:59<Knightmare>well i am going to shoot
16:00<Knightmare>thanks for your patience tonight guys ;)
16:00|-|Knightmare [~smithj@77-97-50-77.cable.ubr03.cast.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit []
16:02<dihedral>Bjarni - SmatZ : is there anything i could do to find out?
16:03<@Bjarni> <dihedral> so - how could one find out what _is_ the issue? <--- sometimes it's easier to rule out what it's not
16:04<@Bjarni><dihedral> Bjarni - SmatZ : is there anything i could do to find out? <--- I know a way but you are not going to like it
16:04<dihedral>i am curious now
16:04<@Bjarni>find a savegame that will desync for sure
16:04|-|NarkSlap [~me@h64n1c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #openttd
16:05<dihedral>we have a save that will desync for sure
16:05<@Bjarni>then start the game with the conditions that will make it desync
16:05<dihedral>it's paused on the mz
16:05<@Bjarni>edit openttd.cfg for the server and the desyncing client
16:05<dihedral>what do i need to add?
16:05<@Bjarni>you can't edit the config when the game is running
16:05<dihedral>no
16:05<dihedral>:-P
16:06<@Bjarni>savegame_format = none
16:06<dihedral>nice
16:06<dihedral>hehehe
16:06<@Bjarni>that is ludde talk for "no compression"
16:06<@Bjarni>now the savegames will be huge
16:06<dihedral>and then save every month
16:06<@Bjarni>every say
16:06<@Bjarni>*day
16:06<ludde>hi Bjarni
16:06<@Bjarni>but I forgot how to set it to do that
16:06<dihedral>i did not know i could do that
16:06<@Bjarni>hi ludde
16:07<@Bjarni>maybe you can remember
16:07<Wolf01>'night
16:07<dihedral>and when it desyncs, diff
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16:07<@Bjarni>how do you set OpenTTD to save every day?
16:07<@Bjarni>I used to do that with you to find the cause of desyncs
16:07<ludde>asking me? i don't remember
16:07<@Bjarni>same here :(
16:07<ludde>just edit the code to save it every day?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd say move up the line in the tick handler
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16:08<Eddi|zuHause2>there's some line like _do_autosave = true
16:08<Eddi|zuHause2>inside an if (new month) block
16:08<@Bjarni>dihedral: well, somebody will have some code reading/editing to do to figure out how to make it save every day
16:08<Gonozal_VIII>save every tick? :D
16:08<@Bjarni>maybe that would be a good idea
16:09<@Bjarni>but once a day could be enough
16:09<dihedral>Bjarni: if it's not endieness based desync, can i run the server and client on the same machiene?
16:09<@Bjarni>then run the game as single player on the server and the client using the same settings
16:09<Eddi|zuHause2>tick handler has the form "do tick stuf, if (new day) { new day stuff, if (new month) { ... }}"
16:09<@Bjarni>and wait until after the desync will happen
16:09<@Bjarni>disable background saving too as it will cause problems when saving that often
16:10<@Bjarni>them use md5 or something to find the first savegame that's different
16:10<@Bjarni>those two savegames will tell what's different and give a clue to what went wrong
16:10<@Bjarni>dihedral: got the idea?
16:10<Gonozal_VIII>very good idea bjarni
16:10<dihedral>Bjarni: sure :-)
16:10<@Bjarni>but don't do anything
16:11<dihedral>of course not
16:11<@Bjarni>even scrolling around the map will modify the savegame
16:11<dihedral>oh
16:11<dihedral>sure
16:11<dihedral>yes
16:12<@Bjarni>right now it's the only way I can think of on how to track down this problem because nobody has a clue to what actually goes wrong
16:12<dihedral>that's fine
16:12<dihedral>i'll do that
16:13<@Bjarni>I can remember when we used to do this and it turned out that x86 and PPC didn't handle an overflow in the same way and it resulted in a town building different buildings when expanding... that would have been more or less impossible to find without doing this
16:13<@Bjarni>"but I didn't do anything"
16:14<dihedral>i could see if it desyncs on my amd running linux too
16:14<@Bjarni>the hardest bugs to track down are bugs that's completely unrelated to user interaction
16:15<dihedral>Bjarni: i'll let you know latest in 2 weeks how that turned out :-)
16:15<@Bjarni>no rush
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16:15<@Bjarni>I have exams :(
16:15<@Bjarni>besides
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16:16<dihedral>i'll be in sweeden in one week :-)
16:16<Eddi|zuHause2>did you manage the autosave thingie?
16:16<Osai>Bjarni, dihedral: http://osai.ath.cx/extern/ottd/game.sav
16:16<Eddi|zuHause2>back when i played daylength x32 in miniin, i did that
16:16<dihedral>i guess that will not be much of a problem to get it to save every day
16:16<@Bjarni>I wonder who would be best to figuring out what is different in the two savegames based on hex reading
16:16<Eddi|zuHause2>because a day is as long as a month normally
16:17<@Bjarni><dihedral> i'll be in sweeden in one week :-) <-- any reason for this torture?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause2>there was this line "_do_autosave = true;" in date.c
16:17<dihedral>visiting friends
16:17<dihedral>meany
16:17<dihedral>nice - thank you Eddi|zuHause2
16:17<dihedral>well then - off to bed for me
16:18<@Bjarni>already?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause2>just move that from the monthly section to the daily section a few lines up
16:18<dihedral>work tomorrow
16:18<@Bjarni>are you going to get up at 5 O'clock to milk the cows or something?
16:18<dihedral>and the mz game yesterday made me stay up until 3am
16:19<dihedral>and i only have until Thursday to meet the deadline and finish a project
16:19<@Bjarni>then sleeping is wrong
16:19<@Bjarni>you should be working on it :P
16:19<dihedral>i will - as of tomorrow
16:20<@Bjarni>right
16:22<dihedral>night
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>anyone knows how to handle Ark? i want it to automatically choose RAR format if i unpack a .r00 file
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>it always asks me because it is not a standard extension...
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>and i don't want to click on the .rar file, because that one is always at the bottom of the list
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16:23<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>so you'll have to scroll a little for your illegal filesharing stuff ;-)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it's just an additional click...
16:25<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Try Kontrollzentrum/dateizuordnungen.
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>and it does not have anything to do with filesharing
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>why else would you use such multi volume packages?
16:26[~]Prof_Frink can rarely be bothered with ark
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: no, the .r00 files are associated with ark
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>just after opening them, ark asks what format it is
16:27<Prof_Frink>`unrar x <tab>.rar`
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: for example, a DVD is 4.4GB, but you can only put 4GB files on them
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>and you have files, that require so many 4gb parts that you have to scroll for the .rar tile?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>Prof_Frink: that is slower than right click -> extract -> extract here (click)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause2>yes ;)
16:29<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: Not if you're sitting at a term parked in the appropriate dir
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: i also have files packed to 100MB to fit on a zip dirk
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Prof_Frink: that is an argument for my side ;)
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>*disk
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16:50<Gege>good evening
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>hi
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17:11<ln->attention
17:12<fjb>I don't think so.
17:12<ln->is anyone working for, or otherwise in contact with a company that imports computer accessories from asia?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i'm right he... what a beautiful butterfly...
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17:13<Gonozal_VIII>most computer stuff comes from asia?
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17:21<ln->there must be at least five TNG episodes where a starfleet admiral arrives on Enterprise, and then is eventually found out to do something crazy and is relieved of duty.
17:22<Rotonen>as expendable as ever
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18:32<Omnituens>hey guys, whats the latest nightly build based on? 0.6.0 beta, or a different one?
18:32<LeviathNL>0.6.0 beta is based on a nightly
18:33<Omnituens>because i just installed a nightly, and its saying 0.5.3
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>the nightly is a daily compilition of the current development state
18:33<+glx>Omnituens: then it's not a nightly
18:33<Omnituens>i probably just messed up the install
18:33<Omnituens>i'll try again
18:39<Omnituens>r11523 now
18:43<LeviathNL>that's correct
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18:45<Omnituens>ta
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19:08<Gonozal_VIII>the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
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19:12<+glx>trying fonts Gonozal_VIII?
19:13<Gonozal_VIII>accidently sent it..
19:14<Gonozal_VIII>they shouldn't place the erase key thing next to the send key thing
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a bad phrase for testing fonts anyway...
20:14<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't contain äöü
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>so does "franz jagt im komplett verwahrlosten taxi quer durch bayern"
20:14<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: and our alphabet does?
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, "OUR" alphabet does ;)
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>äöüß :-)
20:15<SmatZ>it misses much more characters: "pøíli¹ ¾lu»ouèký kùò úpìl ïábelské ódy"
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: but "Falsches Üben von Xylophonmusik quält jeden größeren Zwerg" does
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>hmm i can't read your äöü stuff now
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: that is garbled somehow...
20:17<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: probably problem with codepage... I can read your text with no problem (including ß )
20:18<SmatZ>maybe even the link will work... pøíli¹.¾lu»ouèký.kùò.úpìl.ïábelské.ódy.modry.cz/ international domain names, blah :-x ... this is mapped to http://xn--pli-rma35ctb.xn--luouk-uva4it5a4g.xn--k-qla0j.xn--pl-qka7k.xn--belsk-wqa5dzq.xn--dy-4ja.modry.cz/
20:22<Eddi|zuHause2>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Bildschirmphoto4.png
20:24<Gonozal_VIII>you have civ running in the background?
20:24<Eddi|zuHause2>i have civ paused in the background...
20:24<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a recompression of my scrubs recording running in the background
20:27<SmatZ>http://88.146.45.107/ttd/irc.png
20:28<Gonozal_VIII>that's a lot of channels...
20:28<Eddi|zuHause2>most likely you have not set it to send in utf8
20:29<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: äüëö ... you can even read ß ... wouldn't I need utf8 for that, too?
20:29<SmatZ>yes, the best channels are #i_am_the_master[ !?]
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20:31<Eddi|zuHause3>gna...
20:31<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/openttd.png
20:32<Eddi|zuHause3>you can convert incoming strings from different encodings, and set it to send in a certain encoding
20:32<Eddi|zuHause3>äöü <- this is windows-1252
20:33<Eddi|zuHause3>\x84\x94\x81 <- this is ibm850
20:33<Gonozal_VIII>i can read the first
20:34<SmatZ>yes, I have ISO 8859-2
20:34<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, cp1252 is the most common encoding, together with ibm 8859-1
20:34<Eddi|zuHause3>they have a lot in common
20:34<SmatZ>příliš žluťoučký kůň úpěl ďábelské ódy ... better now?
20:34<Eddi|zuHause3>s/ibm/iso
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>looks worse here
20:35<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, looks better
20:35<SmatZ>:-D
20:35<SmatZ>I set it to UTF-8
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>almost every sign replaced now
20:35<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: that is because your client is not set to decode utf-8
20:37<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause3: you seem to be good in math, while you have op @ #mathe 8-)
20:37<Eddi|zuHause3>wait, that was a requirement?
20:37<Eddi|zuHause3>damn...
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20:38<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
20:41<SmatZ>no...
20:42<Eddi|zuHause3>but to answer the question, yes i have earned that status ;)
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20:58<Gonozal_VIII>seems like trillian irc plugin doesn't support utf-8 decoding
20:58<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't usually notice in english speaking channels ;)
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>yes that's right...
21:00<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't imagine how often i get to hear "hey, your umlauts are broken" in a german speaking channel ;)
21:00<Eddi|zuHause3>(typical answer is: "no, my umlauts are fine, your display is broken")
21:01<SmatZ>:-)
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21:06<Gonozal_VIII>there is a feature to replace strings from incoming messages with other strings for changing nicks of other users and such stuff, in the trillian forum they write about using that to replace the umlauts
21:06<Gonozal_VIII>but that's a trillian pro feature so i can't use that
21:07<Gonozal_VIII>but doesn't matter
21:08<Eddi|zuHause3>[So Aug 26 2007] [22:16:50] <Eddi> also _ich_ habe umlaute :p
21:08<Eddi|zuHause3>[Mo Sep 3 2007] [15:34:57] <Eddi> meine umlaute sind völlig in ordnung :p
21:08<Eddi|zuHause3>[Di Nov 13 2007] [18:26:16] <Eddi> _meine_ umlaute gehen
21:09<Gonozal_VIII>^^
21:09<Eddi|zuHause3>[Di Nov 20 2007] [18:44:29] <Eddi> was meinst du, wie oft ich hier diskussionen geführt hab, à la "deine umlaute gehen nicht"
21:09<Sacro>guten nacht
21:09<Eddi|zuHause3>just a few exaples ;)
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21:10<Gonozal_VIII>good night
21:10<Gonozal_VIII>(it is "gute nacht")
21:11<Sacro>well i'm not native german
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>[20:55:00] Sacro: Rotonen: I am teaching the foreigners how to speak English
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>;-)
21:12<Sacro>:o
21:12<Sacro>alright, you got me there
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21:44<SmatZ>night
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 26 00:00:10 2007