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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-12-05

---Logopened Wed Dec 05 00:00:52 2007
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05:33<SmatZ>hello
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i can't get warm with UKRS...
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08:38<frosch123>Hello everyone
08:39<SmatZ>hello frosch123
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09:04|-|BiA|pavel-css [~pavel.g@48.140.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #openttd
09:04<BiA|pavel-css>hi
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09:06<SmatZ>hello BiA|pavel-css
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09:16<BiA|pavel-css>hi SmatZ :)
09:16<SmatZ>cau BiA|pavel-css :-)
09:16<BiA|pavel-css>english please :)
09:17<BiA|pavel-css>:D
09:17<SmatZ>:-)
09:20<De_Ghost>hey uatx should mean micro atx right
09:20<SmatZ>probably
09:21<De_Ghost>yea it is
09:21<De_Ghost>:)
09:22<+glx>µatx would be better
09:22<SmatZ>or microATX
09:22<De_Ghost>i didn't write it
09:22<De_Ghost>looking for parts
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09:23<De_Ghost>would a micro atx board fit in a normal atx slot?
09:24<HerzogDeXtEr>atx slot?
09:24<De_Ghost>errr
09:24<De_Ghost>on a atx case
09:24<HerzogDeXtEr>yo
09:24<HerzogDeXtEr>it'll fit
09:24<De_Ghost>ok thx
09:24<HerzogDeXtEr>np
09:24<De_Ghost>i mean there is usally screw holes right?
09:24<HerzogDeXtEr>yeah
09:24<+glx>everything smaller than ATX should fit in ATX
09:25<HerzogDeXtEr>glx u say it :)
09:26<+glx>but of course you may have problems with PSU and CPU positioning ;)
09:26<De_Ghost>errr
09:26<De_Ghost>i don't think so as long as there is screw holes
09:27<HerzogDeXtEr>there shouldnt be a problem with the cpu
09:27<+glx>some cases are badly designed, but it's very rare
09:28<HerzogDeXtEr>yeah oki :) in normal cirumstances it should work :)
09:29<HerzogDeXtEr>but why do you want a µATX board?
09:31<De_Ghost>cuz it's on sale
09:32<HerzogDeXtEr>ah oki :)
09:32<HerzogDeXtEr>xD
09:34<De_Ghost>ahh i'll find a case later
09:34<De_Ghost>let me grab all my parts :D
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10:21[~]Belugas just had the occasion to browse forums. Why does it have to be so freakingly depressing???
10:23<SmatZ>why is it depressing?
10:24<@Belugas>stupid requests, stupid interventions, narrow minds etc etc etc...
10:24<hylje>:(
10:24<@Belugas>I have not enjoyed a topic for a long time
10:24<@Belugas>or...
10:25<@Belugas>is it just me?
10:26[~]frosch123 recently enjoyed a topic in the german forums, when there were 10 narrow minds discussing.
10:26<SmatZ>:)
10:26[~]frosch123 thinks OTTD/TTDP wars in german forum are art
10:27<@Belugas>the war is raging even out of the tt-forums??? wow!
10:28<frosch123>You have luck, there are mainly people, who cannot speak english well enough.
10:29<frosch123>You know MB. In the german forums there are at least 3 of that kind.
10:29<@Belugas>hehe
10:29<@Belugas>but do they enjoy the war?
10:30<@Belugas>like... giving good arguments?
10:30<frosch123>Nearly noone there has played both games.
10:30<@Belugas>lol
10:30<@Belugas>that's a bad situation indeed :)
10:30<frosch123>So if the other party has a nice feature, the other say, it is not needed, or they cannot immagine that it may be useful.
10:32<frosch123>Oh, I forgot the MiniIn and the ChrisIn parties, which throw their non-trunk features into the discussion :)
10:32<@Belugas>lol
10:32<@Belugas>surely, i would not want to be even near them :D
10:33<@Belugas>both sides, in fact...
10:35<frosch123>Well I would never have a heart to join the discussion, because it would be some kind of damaging a artwork.
10:35<@Belugas>that's anyway a big problem with these wars: it's always a matter of personnal taste. This feature is good, this one is useless etc etc...
10:36<frosch123>If you take a look at the server list. There is exaktly one MiniIn server :) There were even attemps of a OTTD vs. MiniIn war.
10:38<@Belugas>MiniIN has been the seed of so many confusion...
10:39<@Belugas>some said it was a lab for devs to see how new features would behave, before trunk inclusion
10:39<@Belugas>stuff like that...
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10:40<+glx>some says the same about ChrisIN
10:41<@Belugas>no kidding???
10:41<@Belugas>it's even not on svn !!!
10:42<@Belugas>nor on nightly :S
10:45[~]frosch123 thinks that is caused by the "added to trunkXXX" behind a lot of patches in the first post of the ChrisIn topic
10:46|-|LordAzamath [~LordAzama@ip101.cab22.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
10:46<@Belugas>granted
10:48<LordAzamath>anyone in a mood for a mp game?
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10:53<@Belugas>LordAzamath, do not count me in. My boss will crucify me
10:56<@Bjarni>what are you guys talking about?
10:56<@Bjarni>going against the Romans?
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11:01<BiA|pavel-css><LordAzamath> anyone in a mood for a mp game? --- hmm? :)
11:01<BiA|pavel-css>i am in ;)
11:01<Gonozal_VIII>i opened my curtains and shutters today to see how those "trees" look in rl... but they don't look like the .grf trees at all, most of them don't have any of that green stuff on them...
11:02<BiA|pavel-css>:D
11:02<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean the world is not realistic enough? :p
11:02<Gonozal_VIII>yes, lots of bugs!
11:02<BiA|pavel-css>:o)
11:03<BiA|pavel-css>primary under kitchen's sink :)
11:03<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
11:03[~]BiA|pavel-css has never seen any
11:03<BiA|pavel-css>but in every film, there are some :)
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>you have to look faster
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11:04<LordAzamath>pavel, which server?
11:04<LordAzamath>and any other guys?
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>that's like most people never see the guy little guy that lives in your fridge and switches the light on when you open the doof
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>-f+r
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11:05<BiA|pavel-css>LordAzamath: sooo let's play in same company and rule the map/others? :P
11:05<LordAzamath>beta1?
11:05<LordAzamath>I'll go look for a good fine server
11:05<BiA|pavel-css>i can't create server since it's giving an error when sameone attempt to join :(
11:05<BiA|pavel-css>yeah
11:06<BiA|pavel-css>btw
11:06|-|BiA|pavel-css changed nick to pavel1269
11:06<pavel1269>*someone
11:08<pavel1269>:-O
11:08[~]pavel1269 is donwloading beta1
11:08<LordAzamath>what about dihedral's fair play one? I'll go check out how far are the
11:08<LordAzamath>y
11:08<pavel1269>okay
11:08<Gonozal_VIII>i only play nightlies with tons of newgrf :-)
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11:09<LordAzamath>Pavel, it's basically empty
11:10<pavel1269>well, same here, but if i have oportunity i accept :)
11:10<pavel1269>LordAzamath: so, we are in? :)
11:10<LordAzamath>we go
11:10<LordAzamath>btw can you access the server dihedral fair play one
11:10<LordAzamath>I mean do you have grfs?
11:11<LordAzamath>pass is lord
11:11<pavel1269>ouch
11:11<pavel1269>i don't think so
11:11<LordAzamath>how come :D?
11:12<pavel1269>i don't see any password there :)
11:12<LordAzamath>now there is
11:12<pavel1269>ahhcompany .. :)
11:13<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm he uses grfs without name
11:13<LordAzamath>download #openttdcoop grf pack
11:14<LordAzamath>6
11:14<LordAzamath>I have this and can do everything there :D
11:14<pavel1269>i copyed all my grfs and only half of them :)
11:15<LordAzamath>btw, the company name is Eesti Raudtee
11:15<pavel1269>can't fing link :(
11:15<LordAzamath>and join #openttdfairplay on irc too
11:15[~]LordAzamath is searching far a link
11:15<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: grf without name means you miss them
11:16<Gonozal_VIII>normally i see the names of the missing ones
11:16<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: with no grf, i saw them
11:16<pavel1269>*grfs
11:17<Gonozal_VIII>but there are some where i only see id and md5sum
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11:18<Gonozal_VIII>the first, the last and second to last ad the one after north american roads set
11:19<pavel1269>lol, my grf pack is now 55MB big
11:19<Gonozal_VIII>^^ lots of grfs
11:20<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm now the names are there
11:20<pavel1269>291 files ^^
11:23<@Belugas>i really hope you willnot find a bug and ask us to tack it with a savegame :S
11:23<@Belugas>track
11:26<Gonozal_VIII>btw... i started to modify some grfs yesterday.. i wondered, how are the pcx files with the blue spritenumbers and such generated?
11:27<Gonozal_VIII>i put the numbers there manually but that doesn't seem to be the right way
11:28<@Belugas>those are generated by grfcodec upon decoding
11:28<+glx>blue numbers in pcx are just cosmetic
11:29<@Belugas>specifying those numbers on pcx file is useless. it is defined by the position on the nfo file
11:29<@Belugas>or the number of the nfo line, rather...
11:29<+glx>yes you can use sprite x in line y if you want :)
11:29<Gonozal_VIII>i noticed that because i edited the nfo files too...
11:31<Gonozal_VIII>hmm i must do something wrong with the encoding
11:31<pavel1269>Belugas: if i found a bug, i will delete that save :)
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11:31<Gonozal_VIII>baaaaad pavel
11:33<@Belugas>lol
11:33<Gonozal_VIII>the files before encoding shouldn't be the same as after decoding?
11:33<@Belugas>good pavel, good :D
11:34<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, depends if you modidied it ;)
11:34<@Belugas>modified
11:34<@Belugas>gaaaaa
11:36<Gonozal_VIII>so... seperate file for every sprite would be the normal way to go?
11:37<@Belugas>no
11:37<@Belugas>it's up to you to decide
11:37<+glx>you can do it if you want :)
11:38<@Belugas>but for sure, the decoding will make it one file only
11:38<@Belugas>pcx that is...
11:38<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm decoding adds the numbers... so all the work i did yesterday with adding numbers..... lalalala
11:39<+glx>totally useless :D
11:40<@Belugas>it's better to have a good maintained nfo source file
11:40<@Belugas>and always work with this one
11:40<@Belugas>not the generated one ;)
11:41<+glx>yes working in your own commented nfo is easier
11:41<Gonozal_VIII>there's something else for that too :O
11:42<@Belugas>don't rely on tools when a good text editor does the job even better ;)
11:42<Gonozal_VIII>i used notepad... but on the file that starts with: // Automatically generated by GRFCODEC. Do not modify!
11:43<+glx>these lines are needed
11:43<Gonozal_VIII>i noticed that^^
11:43<+glx>but you can then add your own comments in your nfo
11:43<Gonozal_VIII>encode didn't work after i removed those
11:44<+glx>and unless you use action 0C they are removed if you encode/decode
11:45<Gonozal_VIII>actions are scary
11:45<Gonozal_VIII>but i like action 7 :-)
11:45<+glx>0C "blah" is not the hardest :)
11:46<pavel1269><Belugas> good pavel, good :D --- :o) ... lol
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11:47<@Belugas>actions are scary only when you do not know them
11:48<@Belugas>taking the time to play with them and you start liking them
11:48<@Belugas>to a certain extend, but still :)
11:48<@Belugas>the rule is to follow as close as possile the specs
11:48<Gonozal_VIII>yes, it doesn't look too hard with the documentation on the patch wiki
11:49<pavel1269>LordAzamath: what now?
11:49<+glx>indeed it's harder for us to implement them in ottd using only the wiki
11:49<LordAzamath>hmm
11:49<@Belugas>lol
11:49<@Belugas>yeah :D
11:50<LordAzamath>I think that we sh....Ooohh..What is that glistning in the ground? a patch
11:50<LordAzamath>?
11:51<pavel1269>?
11:52|-|G [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
11:53<Gonozal_VIII>hmm the stuff in action c could also be done with action 7...
11:53<pavel1269>need help :( with setting my server, it just don't work in almost al ways :)
11:53<pavel1269>*all
11:53<pavel1269>i have public ip, i forwarded 3979 to my pc
11:54<pavel1269>noone can't find my server ... but http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php?id=11834
11:54<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: I don't think so, action 7 is skip if, action C does nothing
11:54|-|G [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined #openttd
11:54<pavel1269>and noone can't join him, its giving some error which i am trying to find atm
11:55<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
11:55<Gonozal_VIII>you can choose the if as something that is always true
11:55<pavel1269>so forwarding 3978 might help? :)
11:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11575 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1502]: widget numbers of StationViewWindow were incorrect at some places
11:55<+glx>not needed, master server see it :)
11:56<pavel1269>so why noone can't join or see it
11:56<Gonozal_VIII>with ip?
11:56<pavel1269> 83.208.140.48:3979
11:56<pavel1269>server offline
11:56<pavel1269>but openttd.org see my server :)
11:57<@Belugas>i know why, pavel1269 : too many grfs ;)
11:57<+glx>from outside or from lan ?
11:57<pavel1269>Belugas: 0active
11:57[~]Belugas was joking...
11:57<pavel1269>glx: from lan it work
11:57<pavel1269>*s
11:57<Gonozal_VIII>i see it
11:57<pavel1269>LordAzamath can't :)
11:58<pavel1269>and thats worse ... someone can, someone can't
11:58<+glx>I can't see it either
11:58<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: try to connect ... it will give some wierid error
11:58<Gonozal_VIII>can't version mismatch
11:58<pavel1269>beta1
11:58<pavel1269>no grf, no patch
11:58<+glx>you formarded UDP and TCP?
11:59<Gonozal_VIII>don't have beta only nightlies
11:59<pavel1269>glx: i forwarded only 3979, which others do i have to?
11:59<Gonozal_VIII>but i can see it without problems... temperate 128^2 czech, jan 1920....
11:59<+glx>3979 UDP and 3979 TCP
12:00<pavel1269>:-O
12:00|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A47061.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:01<pavel1269>how i choose which? there is only Port No.
12:01<Gonozal_VIII>udp and tcp together is default setting on my router
12:01|-|NarkSlap [~me@1-1-1-19b.o.sth.bostream.se] has joined #openttd
12:01<pavel1269>i hope, on my too
12:01<pavel1269>:)
12:02<+glx>but it's strange MS see it while I can't
12:02<pavel1269>just because i cant choose tcp/udp
12:02<pavel1269>ms, you mean microsoft?
12:02<+glx>master server
12:02<pavel1269>ahh
12:03<pavel1269>i have 3:2 odds that you will see server and 1:(unlimited) to connect :(
12:04<pavel1269>glx: should i try to forward all ports? if it should help?
12:04<Gonozal_VIII>firewall?
12:04<+glx>hmm high ping (more than 90ms) but should not be a problem
12:05<pavel1269>hmm, but i allower openttd
12:05<pavel1269>*allowed
12:05<pavel1269>FW off
12:05<Gonozal_VIII>stupid windows firewall asks again everytime i upgrade to a new nightly
12:05<pavel1269>that's pernamently off
12:05<pavel1269>i use kerio
12:05<pavel1269>glx: can you see me now?
12:06<+glx>still offline
12:06<pavel1269>not FW problem
12:06<pavel1269>gonna try forward all ports except www,ftp and telnet
12:07<+glx>but if MS can see it, everybody should
12:07<+glx>that's a weird thing
12:07<pavel1269>glx: now?
12:07<pavel1269>i forwarded all ports
12:08<Gonozal_VIII>other ports shouldn't be a problem
12:08|-||Bastiaan| [~kvirc@77.60.199.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11576 /trunk/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: enumerize and comment station GUI
12:08<pavel1269>weird things ask for wieirds solutions :)
12:08<+glx>no changes
12:08<pavel1269>:(
12:09|-|LordAzamath [~LordAzama@ip101.cab22.ltln.starman.ee] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.5 : http://kopete.kde.org]
12:10<pavel1269>so ... -> router(nat) - nothink -> fw - nothink -> openttd error :)
12:10<+glx>maybe an internet problem :)
12:10<Gonozal_VIII>hmm sometimes i had to establish a hamachi connection to a friend, only for some seconds, to get openttd to find him... but that didn't happen since long ago...
12:11<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: same, we play over hamachi
12:12<pavel1269>any idea? :(
12:12<Gonozal_VIII>i would ask if you forward the hamachi ports... but since you forward all ports now...
12:13<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: i dont have forwarded hamachi ports
12:13<pavel1269>normaly
12:13<Gonozal_VIII>but the situation is not very normal now
12:16<Rubidium>about "when the MS can see it, everybody should": this does not hold when the server specifically drops traffic from your range
12:16<+glx>I can ping the server :)
12:18<pavel1269>5big thanks to man who find my problem :)
12:18|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A592A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:19<Gonozal_VIII>that's easy
12:19|-||Bastiaan| [~kvirc@ip87-205-173-82.adsl2.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd
12:19<Gonozal_VIII>your problem is that nobody can connect to your server :-)
12:19|-|G_ [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined #openttd
12:20<pavel1269>lol :)
12:20<pavel1269>my bad english :/
12:20<pavel1269>*5big thanks to man who find solution of my problem :)
12:21<|Jeroen|>no beer prize ?
12:21|-|G [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:27<pavel1269>|Jeroen|: almost! :P
12:27<Gonozal_VIII>how far are you away from the austrian border?
12:28<pavel1269>how can i know? :)
12:28<pavel1269><- Brno, Czech republic
12:28<Gonozal_VIII>because?^^
12:29<pavel1269>maybye 50km?
12:29<Gonozal_VIII>i know that name but i don't know where that is exactly
12:30<pavel1269>GPS on map told me that 44km :)
12:30<pavel1269>what it tell to you? :)
12:30<Gonozal_VIII>you could supply me with cheap czech stuff :D
12:30<pavel1269>lol! :D
12:30<pavel1269>cheap? :o
12:30<Gonozal_VIII>yeees
12:30<pavel1269>are you kidding
12:31<Gonozal_VIII>much cheaper than here
12:31<pavel1269>you must be richier
12:31<pavel1269>
12:31<pavel1269>*:)
12:31<@Bjarni><pavel1269> you must be richier <-- that's a myth
12:32<@Bjarni>it's not like we are way richer in the west if you consider the price for stuff in stores and so on
12:32<@Bjarni>not to mention that I bet your current month income is higher than mine :(
12:32<pavel1269>i bet too!
12:33<@Bjarni>in fact I'm pretty sure you get more money than me
12:33|-|Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-47-111.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
12:33<@Bjarni>because I get 0 :(
12:33<pavel1269>oh :)
12:33<Gonozal_VIII>i thought you drive trains
12:33<@Bjarni>not for a living
12:34<pavel1269>from part time jobs i get 1500kc =~ 80$
12:34<pavel1269>and 1/3 go to internet because parents said if i want it i must pay it :(
12:35<@Bjarni>:P
12:36<@Bjarni>railroad operation is surprisingly enough a cheap hobby if you do it right. There is nowhere else that you can do anything like it without paying a fortune for fuel
12:37<pavel1269>just, help me with that problem :(
12:37|-|Progman [~progman@p57A1F990.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:40<@Bjarni>err
12:40<@Bjarni>I stopped responding to helping people on the internet with their issues
12:41<pavel1269>how so?
12:47<Gonozal_VIII>the weird message i get when trying to join is "wrong password"
12:48<pavel1269>try ssap :)
12:48<pavel1269>"ssap"
12:49<pavel1269>then ;)
12:49<pavel1269>hmm ...
12:49|-|De_Ghost [~De_Ghost@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: no.. your a hobo]
12:49<pavel1269>i guess ... glx have that problem on his machine :D
12:50<+glx>no the server is offline for me
12:50<Gonozal_VIII>no problem
12:50<+glx>and that's the only one
12:50<Gonozal_VIII>i can join as spectator or in the existing company... works without problems
12:51<pavel1269>try to create your company :)
12:51<Gonozal_VIII>didn't try to crea...
12:51<Gonozal_VIII>ok
12:51<pavel1269>i think it will ... :/
12:51<pavel1269>hmm
12:52<pavel1269>glx: you are not alone, one of my friends cant joint too
12:52<Gonozal_VIII>didn't do anything special
12:53<pavel1269>and one friend is getting wierid error ...
12:53<Gonozal_VIII>like?
12:53<pavel1269>wait
12:53[~]pavel1269 searching chat history
12:55<pavel1269>1) server didnt anser to reques
12:55<pavel1269>*request
12:55<Gonozal_VIII>btw 1920 doesn't make sense without grfs
12:55<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: just trying
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13:04<Gonozal_VIII>the server didn't answer the request^^
13:04<pavel1269>server down ^^
13:04|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host251-15-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:04<Gonozal_VIII>but i still see it
13:04<Gonozal_VIII>and the companies... but without names
13:04<Gonozal_VIII>ah now
13:05<Wolf01>hello
13:05<pavel1269>hi
13:05<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm there was a new game for some seconds and now i can't see the server anymore
13:06<pavel1269>now?
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>aaah different server name
13:07<pavel1269>MS cant see me now ...
13:07<pavel1269>glx: try it ...
13:07<pavel1269>FW off, all port forwarded
13:07<pavel1269>clean onstall
13:07<pavel1269>*install
13:07<+glx>same IP?
13:07<Gonozal_VIII>i found it without ip
13:08<pavel1269>y
13:08<pavel1269>i am not using dedicated
13:08<Gonozal_VIII>advertise and dedicated is something completely different
13:09<pavel1269>advertise?
13:10<Gonozal_VIII>you can choose connection LAN/Internet or Internet(advertise)
13:10<pavel1269>okay :)
13:11|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A592A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [ZZZzzzz.]
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>but i find it with find server
13:11<pavel1269>but, only you
13:11<pavel1269>:)
13:12<pavel1269><- still using advertise ... but MS cant see me now? :/
13:12<+glx>that's why I don't even see the ip in the list
13:14<pavel1269>any idea why it is broken more on fresh install? :)
13:15<Eddi|zuHause2>most likely, you drop UDP packages
13:16<+glx>but not all as it worked before
13:16<+glx>looks like a network issue
13:17<Gonozal_VIII>i'm currently on his server without problems
13:17|-|BigBB [~BigBB@p5B04334C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: BigBB]
13:21<pavel1269>:-O svchost.exe error
13:22<Gonozal_VIII>blaster :D
13:22<pavel1269>ahh, nothink, jsut my pc collapsing :)
13:23<+glx>svchost.exe manages the network :)
13:23<pavel1269>it callapses a lot
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>windows shuts down when svchost is terminated
13:23<+glx>not for all svchost
13:23<pavel1269>who terminate me? :D
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>blaster does that :-)
13:24<+glx>blaster still exists?
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>i guess... somewhere...
13:24<pavel1269>blaster?
13:24<@Belugas>blast the blaster!
13:24<pavel1269>?
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>i had mine when it was fresh :D
13:25<Prof_Frink>Good ol' shutdown -a
13:25<+glx>my brother got it while downloading antivirus and firewall
13:25<Gonozal_VIII>took me some.. lots.. of reboots to find that information
13:25|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A4722.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:26<pavel1269>any idea or you are just kidding of me?
13:27<pavel1269>kidding :(
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13:28<Gonozal_VIII>if you did windows update somewhen in the last years it shouldn't be blaster
13:29<pavel1269>2years no update :)
13:29<+glx>you are crazy
13:29<+glx>updates are vital for windows
13:29<pavel1269>really? .)
13:29<pavel1269>i know my win is broken but i have no hope it will repair it :)
13:29<+glx>even non genuine windows can be updated (at least security updates)
13:30|-|Ikarus-70 [~florian.s@p54845F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:30<Ikarus-70>hi all
13:30<pavel1269>glx: so i should try it?
13:30|-|mikl_ [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.broadband.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:30<pavel1269>hi
13:31<Ikarus-70>where can I find the words which were written here yesterday?
13:31<+glx>!logs
13:31<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
13:31<Gonozal_VIII>just don't install the genuine advantage notification thingy...
13:31<+glx>there Ikarus-70
13:31<pavel1269>okay :)
13:31<Ikarus-70>hä?
13:31<pavel1269><- brb in year ....
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13:32<pavel1269>lol ms didnt know about me, but my server sended to it sth when i exited :)
13:32|-|G [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined #openttd
13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>err... i have a truck waiting in front of a full station, and it cannot turn around, even if i tell it to...
13:33|-|mikl_ [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.broadband.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
13:33<Gonozal_VIII>why would anyone want to install that anyways? if you have a licenced copy it doesn't do anything and if you don't, you don't want to have a thing that bugs you to get a licence all the time
13:33<pavel1269>:o)
13:33<Gonozal_VIII>there are some situations where they can't turn around
13:33<pavel1269>automatic updates??
13:34|-|G_ [~njones@202-154-150-91.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
13:34<Gonozal_VIII>set them to inform you of updates but not install them automatically
13:34<pavel1269>offcourse ...
13:35<pavel1269>i am not crazy :)
13:35<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
13:35<pavel1269>maybye ..
13:35<Gonozal_VIII>but it also works that way without licence... they don't seem to care much
13:35<pavel1269>:)
13:35<pavel1269>they care, but its strategical
13:36<pavel1269>you used to do things at win, and at work you must have licensed
13:36<Gonozal_VIII>people that don't pay for windows are better for them than people that don't pay for linux
13:36<Ikarus-70>I cant scroll down on this page
13:37<pavel1269>:)
13:37<Gonozal_VIII>use the other link
13:38<pavel1269>can i force win to update? :P
13:38<Ikarus-70>thx!
13:38|-|mikl_ [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.broadband.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:38<Ikarus-70>can someone explain to me what "blocked intertubes" are?
13:38<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i think the update page only works with licence, without that you can only wait for automatic update
13:39<Ikarus-70>It seems to make my multi games slow
13:39<Gonozal_VIII>intertubes?
13:39<Ikarus-70>I was told this here yesterday as I had a problem with ottd
13:40<SmatZ>[19:38:44] <Ikarus-70> can someone explain to me what "blocked intertubes" are?
13:40<SmatZ>lol
13:40<SmatZ>Ikarus-70: errr ... like the network is under too heavy load so it cannot handle your traffic
13:41<Ikarus-70>can I do something to cure this problem?
13:41<pavel1269>get better server/ internet connection?
13:41<Gonozal_VIII>yes, block access to p0rn servers
13:41<Ikarus-70>lol
13:41<pavel1269>:)
13:42<Ikarus-70>isnt DSL2000 not good enough?
13:42<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: yeah, i must w8 :(
13:42<pavel1269>Ikarus-70: yeah
13:42<pavel1269>or .. i think so :)
13:42<SmatZ>Ikarus-70: maybe someone was making fun of you
13:42<Ikarus-70>hm
13:42<Gonozal_VIII>depends on how many other people are on that connection and what they/you do
13:43<Ikarus-70>I had lags on a ottd server and the other players had not.
13:43<Ikarus-70>I have this problem often
13:43<+glx>browsing is very slow for me right now because my upload is too high
13:43<SmatZ>Ikarus-70: maybe you were playing on too distant server where others have better connection
13:44<Ikarus-70>oh
13:44<Gonozal_VIII>distance doesn't matter much
13:44<Gonozal_VIII>unless it's a server on the moon or something...
13:44<pavel1269>what if server is on mars?
13:44<Gonozal_VIII>^^
13:44<pavel1269>see!
13:44<pavel1269>:)
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>this is getting even more weird... my plastic loading trucks don't load any plastic
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>don't play toyland to mars grf then!
13:45<pavel1269>:D
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>is there plastic at the station? do you supply the industry? are they refittet to plastic?^^
13:46<pavel1269>my problem is more interesting :)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause2>no, yes, yes
13:46<pavel1269>:)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause2>the fuel oil trucks do load stuff from that same station
13:47<Gonozal_VIII>plastic producing tiles in the catchment area?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause2>there was never a differentiation on what tiles produce anything
13:47<Eddi|zuHause2>only accepting
13:48<Gonozal_VIII>that's what i thought too but it could be possible...
13:49<Gonozal_VIII>waaaaait a minute
13:49[~]SmatZ waaaaaits
13:50<Gonozal_VIII>i think it can only produce one product at a time :-)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>indeed, increasing catchment area helped
13:50<Gonozal_VIII>or that^^
13:51<Gonozal_VIII>but i read about some industry that only produces one product somewhere
13:51<Eddi|zuHause2>but there is absolutely no indication of that anywhere...
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>now it's getting even more weird... i got 1000 liter of plastic, but nothing more...
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>back to the one product theory... better rating there?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause2>and the algorithm that assignes loading slots is... suboptimal...
13:54<pavel1269>it looks now like, if i turn off FW, MS dont see me ... lol!
13:54<Gonozal_VIII>and the algorithm that assignes loading slots is... suboptimal... <-- what do you mean? always worked fine for me
13:54<pavel1269>no no .(
13:55<Eddi|zuHause2>it often sends trucks to the full station, when there are free slots at the other station...
13:55<Gonozal_VIII>ooooh that
13:55<Eddi|zuHause2>and it does not always take the nearest slot
13:55<Gonozal_VIII>there are some tricks to let them load better
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>i tried around a lot
13:56<pavel1269>ms cant find me now anyway
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>there has to be a possibility to enter the stations from both sides... and the ways have to be different length
13:57<Gonozal_VIII>if they are symmetrical, they will always choose the same
13:57|-|DJ_Mirage [~sexybigge@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:57<pavel1269>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35178
13:57<pavel1269>:-/ now wait and hope :(
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14:00<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/truckstop.png
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>that should balance them well
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>they will use all 12 bays :-)
14:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11577 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: invalidate 'list trains/roadvehs/ships/planes' widgets when station part is added/removed
14:16<pavel1269>Gonozal_VIII: at least 2 but propertly, not all to one :)
14:16<Gonozal_VIII>er... what?
14:17<pavel1269>that, vehicles will not go all to one but at least to your two ways :)
14:18<Gonozal_VIII>if multiple drive through stops are connected after one another, they will always stop at the last possibility not the first
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14:24<pavel1269>something is broken ... no sound at all :(
14:24<pavel1269>only streaming
14:24<pavel1269>thats that svchost.exe i guess :)
14:24<pavel1269>brb
14:24|-|pavel1269 [~pavel.g@48.140.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit []
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>oh and look at the trees in my screenshot... tiny trees :-)
14:27<@Belugas>32b?
14:28<Gonozal_VIII>no
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14:29<BiA|pavel-css>back :)
14:29<BiA|pavel-css>with sound
14:31<BiA|pavel-css>and "smart" win is gonna update :)
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>that's the modification on the stolentrees grf i made yesterday @ belugas
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause2>nice... the plastic production got running properly now...
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: the grass looks ugly...
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>that's newterrain
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>no grass on the trees
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>and i like it :-)
14:42<hylje>the grass needs a larger texture
14:42<Gonozal_VIII>what's so ugly?
14:42<hylje>it loops too often
14:42<Gonozal_VIII>it loops every tile...
14:42<hylje>exactly
14:42<@Belugas>i like the grass
14:42<hylje>the old grass loops well
14:43<Gonozal_VIII>but i see what you mean
14:43<Gonozal_VIII>maybe that will be my next modification...
14:44<hylje>its harder than it looks
14:45<hylje>and besides, a more versatile grass texture (from the behalf of the engine) wouldnt be all bad either!
14:45<Gonozal_VIII>well.. i can't do that
14:47[~]Belugas would like very much hylje to show us his talents ^_^
14:48<hylje>i get your point
14:49<Eddi|zuHause2>it shouldn't be too hard to get a different grass texture for adjacent tiles
14:50|-|Ikarus-70 [~florian.s@p54845F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>based on x%2 and y%2 (or possibly (x+y)%4)
14:50<hylje>or random
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a similar algorithm for the pylon positioning
14:50<Gonozal_VIII>would be nice for rocks too...
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>random is more difficult, because you have to make all tiles fit
14:51<Eddi|zuHause2>with the modulo calculation, you can be sure which tiles are next to which
14:51<Gonozal_VIII>different rocks with grass-rock transition if there is grass or full rock tile if there is another rock
14:51<Eddi|zuHause2>also you don't need to save the random bits
14:51<hylje>spilling types of terrain?
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, even the forests and hills in civ 1 did that... it shouldn't be very hard
14:52<hylje>Eddi|zuHause2: one wouldnt need to save the texture bits
14:52<hylje>Eddi|zuHause2: it could very well be generated when one sees it :O
14:52<@Belugas>right now, there is no code that allows to specify a different kind of grass tile
14:53<@Belugas>grass is grass
14:53<@Belugas>bump is bumo,
14:53<@Belugas>and rocks are rocks
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14:53<@Belugas>i don't know how difficult it wold be do to so, not in position to verify
14:55<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the first suggestion would be the easiest, have 4 different grass sprites, and choose them depending on x%2 and y%2
14:55<Gonozal_VIII>a grf would need an action 7 that checks for adjecent tile type
14:55<Eddi|zuHause2>i wouldn't necessarily implement that in grf...
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14:55<Gonozal_VIII>(i like action 7, that's the only one i read much about)
14:56<@Belugas>action 7? not related at all, sorry to say
14:56<@Belugas>if you want grass tile to be loadable, you need something else
14:56<@Belugas>like maybe actions 1,2,3
14:56<Gonozal_VIII>well it can skip the grass-rock transition sprite if there is no rock
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14:56<@Belugas>althougn there is no specs at all for that
14:56<@Belugas>maybe a new action A...
14:57<Eddi|zuHause2>if i understood stuff right, action 7/9 decide on static information on grf load if something is to be skipped or not...
14:57<@Belugas>and the grass tile willhave to be assigned at generation, otherwise, pretty much screwed with over calculatin on each tile loop...
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>static? ok.. bad thing then
14:58<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean like wether "wagonspeed limits" is on, and then load additional wagons
14:58<Eddi|zuHause2>or skip them, if it's off
14:59<Gonozal_VIII>i used it in the modification i did to the water on map edges grf to skip newwater sprites if newwater isn't loaded
14:59<Eddi|zuHause2>or you could do stuff like the railway fences, i believe their position is stored in the map
14:59<@Belugas>[15:01] <Eddi|zuHause2> i wouldn't necessarily implement that in grf... <--- maybe, maybe not. it depends...
15:00<Eddi|zuHause2>so you can calculate the grass layout during the tile loop
15:00<Eddi|zuHause2>and then use the stored layout for display
15:01<@Belugas>[15:06] <Eddi|zuHause2> so you can calculate the grass layout during the tile loop <--- beurk :(
15:01<@Belugas>i fear may too much calculations
15:01<Gonozal_VIII>tiles could stay rock/grass/hill even if you bulldoze them or build something else there or flood them... therefore the sprites will stay the same through the game
15:01<@Belugas>making system crawling
15:01<Eddi|zuHause2>why? you calculate grass growth and stuff there anyway
15:01<Eddi|zuHause2>it's not much more to calculate
15:02<@Belugas>therefor, static data, like forest/desert stuff
15:02<@Belugas>with tha amont of tiles, yes, it is a lot more...
15:02<@Belugas>well... that's my opinion anyway...
15:02<@Belugas>no hard data yet to prove it
15:03<@Belugas>[15:07] <Eddi|zuHause2> why? you calculate grass growth and stuff there anyway <--- grass growth? only from bare land to grass, that's it
15:03<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i think you can make it in a way that the effect is insignificant
15:03<@Belugas>and it's not much
15:03<@Belugas>and it's not on every tile
15:03<@Belugas>on ly those that require it
15:03<@Belugas>wel... once more, i think...
15:03<@Belugas>no hard evidence, shoul I repeat myself...
15:04<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly, grass does not constantly need to change, this can most likely be handled for growing grass
15:04<Eddi|zuHause2>and then stays that way, unless that or a neighbouring tile is changed
15:04<Eddi|zuHause2>which you can handle in the command that changes it
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. if you clear a tile, you walk through the adjacent tiles
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>if you grow a grass tile, you walk through adjacent tiles
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>there shouldn't be much more than that needed
15:06<Gonozal_VIII>how does the game know that a grass tile needs growing?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a counter
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>stored in the tile
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>decreased on each tile loop
15:07<Eddi|zuHause2>if it hits 0, the next growth step is reached
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>it ignores all tiles that have counter on 0?
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>ah
15:07<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it ignores all tiles that are fully grown
15:08<Gonozal_VIII>they don't have the counter then?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2>like: "if (not fully grown) { if (counter==0) { grow tile, reset counter } else { decrease counter } }"
15:10<Eddi|zuHause2>you can find such counters in many different tiles
15:10<Eddi|zuHause2>like houses under construction
15:11<@Belugas>fancy -> "fancying" == good english?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you should ask that to a native speaker ;)
15:12[~]Belugas hopes there would be at least one around...
15:12<@Belugas>like a silent Sacro...
15:13<Sacro>eh?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2><hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: it could very well be generated when one sees it :O <- this needs a O(1) function for random access
15:13<Sacro>Belugas: in what context?
15:14<Sacro>I fancy -> I am fancying
15:14<Eddi|zuHause2>typical random functions tend to be O(n), where n is the position in the number sequence
15:14<@Belugas>like ... working on a layout, and trying to be too picky, too fancy about it
15:14<@Belugas>thus fanying over a layout ?
15:15<Sacro>err...
15:15<@Belugas>suggestion?
15:15<Sacro>fancying over a layout doesn't make much sense
15:15<BiA|pavel-css>fix my bug :P
15:15<Eddi|zuHause2>fix my bug first ;)
15:15<BiA|pavel-css>my is speacial :)
15:15<SmatZ>what bug?
15:16<@Belugas>trying to make too many non-important and unnecessary requests on the layout
15:16<Gonozal_VIII>his server only works for me
15:16<@Belugas>want a really shorter term
15:16<Sacro>you could fancy one layout over another
15:17<BiA|pavel-css>SmatZ: my pc is now slow ... and is trying to opne web browser for 2mins, momtnt
15:17[~]Belugas is at work and does not give too much importance about a OTTD server...
15:17<Sacro>but hmm, we tend to use "fancy" in a sexual kind of way
15:17<@Belugas>ok, Sacro, not too bad
15:17<Sacro>like "i fancy her"
15:17<@Belugas>ha...
15:17<@Belugas>hem... indeed, not too work related hehee
15:17<BiA|pavel-css>SmatZ: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35178
15:19<@Belugas>BiA|pavel-css, don't wnat to be rude, but if it was a bug of OTTD, everyone would be on same situation. So I suggest checking every network component on your system
15:19<BiA|pavel-css>Belugas: i did :(
15:19<BiA|pavel-css>router(nat),FW ...
15:19<@Belugas>i agree it's not normal, but the answer can only come from your system
15:19<BiA|pavel-css>with this i must agree :(
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16:34<Wolf01>uhm, i noticed that somebody played again with the transparencies
16:36<Wolf01>now i must set all the transparencies by hand to toggle them all
16:38<SmatZ>Wolf01: when did it change?
16:39<Wolf01>ah, i don't know.. i just updated the nightly after some time
16:39<Wolf01>last time the transparency was not saved between games
16:40<Wolf01>if somebody wants saved transparencies well, no problem, but make it a patch setting, or like my patch, with a widget on the transparency toolbar
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17:18<fjb>Moin.
17:19<@Bjarni>fjb: what do you mean by that word anyway?
17:19<@Bjarni>you use it whenever you enter the channel
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>that's a form of morning
17:19<@Bjarni>yet I know it as "good morning"
17:20<fjb>It is the usual greeting in northern germany.
17:20<@Bjarni>and it's not morning right now
17:20<fjb>It is used everytime of the day.
17:20<fjb>And night ofcourse.
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>well.. don't expect rational thought in northern germany :-)
17:20<@Bjarni><fjb> It is the usual greeting in northern germany. <-- interesting... in Denmark it's used only in southern Jylland
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>^^
17:21<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> well.. don't expect rational thought in [...] germany :-) <-- I knew that
17:21<fjb>Southern Denmark begins where northern Germany ends...
17:21<@Bjarni>I know
17:22<@Bjarni>and I know that the current border is from 1920. We got some of the land back that you stole in 1864.
17:22<@Bjarni>but not all of it
17:22<@Bjarni>and surprisingly we didn't get any after WW2
17:22<fjb>Only the winners got some land...
17:23<@Bjarni>you win the war in 1864 and take our land. You lose in 1945 and we get 3 used locomotives
17:23<@Bjarni>talk about being fair :P
17:23<fjb>Don't speak bad about german locomotives.
17:24<fjb>A kingdom for a german locomotive.
17:24<@Bjarni>in fact those 3 locomotives wasn't really war compensation... it was more like they remained here when the Germans moved out
17:24<fjb>Norway got some used airplanes.
17:24<@Bjarni>well... it was actually 4 but the last one was a switching engine that was beyond repair
17:25<@Bjarni>I'm not really sure if we should count that one
17:25<fjb>Bjarni: I thought you would be happy about every locomotive.
17:27<@Bjarni>hehe
17:27<@Bjarni>BR 38.10
17:27<@Bjarni>that was the German name of the 3 operational locomotives left behind
17:27<fjb>And we never got any compensations for what the wikings did to our towns.
17:27<@Bjarni>and we never got compensation for what the Hansa union did to us
17:28<fjb>BR 38 was a good locomotive, it was the last steam locomotiver used by the DB.
17:28<fjb>:-)
17:28<@Bjarni>yeah... they were good but for some reason they were all scrapped.
17:28<@Bjarni>might be that somebody in DSB didn't like the Germans
17:29<fjb>Oh, sorry, BR 23 was the last one used. But BR 38 was good too. A prussian design.
17:30<fjb>BR 38 was used all over Europe even before WWII
17:30<@Bjarni>Belgium got 16 BR 50. We bought 12 of them and used them for heavy freight
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17:31<@Bjarni>but don't ask me why DSB decided to change the boiler pressure from 16 to 12 kg/cm^2
17:31<fjb>BR 50 was far mor powerfull then BR 38.
17:31<@Bjarni>they became less efficient and couldn't pull as much anymore
17:31<Gonozal_VIII>i want back what we lost in ww1 and ww2
17:31<@Bjarni>BR 50 is a true heavy freight engine
17:31<fjb>Maybe they didn't have spare parts strong enough for the higher pressure.
17:32<@Bjarni>that sounds like a lame reason for the extra coal
17:32<fjb>The boilers of the late German steam engines were high technology at their time.
17:33<@Bjarni>if you have a boiler pressure at 10 kg, then you can fill the firebox with coal and still not be able to increase the pressure while driving. If the pressure is 12 then you can keep the pressure and use way less coal even at higher power output
17:33<@Bjarni>so the difference between 12 and 16 has to be really big
17:34<fjb>That is why they were designed for the higher pressure.
17:35<@Bjarni>in fact the first point of where higher pressure makes less sense is 25 km/cm^2 because at that pressure water can turn into steam without using energy
17:35<@Bjarni>at 12 kg/cm^2 1/3 of the energy is used to heat the water and 2/3 is used to change water into steam
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17:36<@Bjarni>so higher pressure means way less costs for making one litre of steam while one litre of steam at higher pressure can do more work
17:36<@Bjarni>it's a win-win :)
17:36<fjb>That sounds reasonable.
17:37<fjb>There are some informations about BR 50 at the german Wikipedia, if your german is well enough. It should be enough for the technical data, if you are interested: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Baureihe_50
17:37<@Bjarni>ever wondered why steam locomotives tend to have a leaking safety valve while driving? It's because they have their peak efficiency at the point where it starts to open but isn't fully opened yet
17:38<@Bjarni>the minor leak wastes less energy than the gain from the high pressure
17:38<fjb>I didn't know.
17:38<@Bjarni>now you do ;)
17:38<Gonozal_VIII>then why not make the safety with a little bit more pressure?
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17:39<fjb>The german steam engines were really efficient.
17:39<@Bjarni>there is a reason why Germany built steam locomotives for all of Europe
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17:40<Gonozal_VIII>you could heat passenger wagons with the steam, then there wouldn't be much wasted :-)
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>at least in winter...
17:40<@Bjarni>I learned today (or yesterday) that they even exported steam locomotives to Japan
17:40<fjb>German locomotives got fames when they designed steam engined for the alpine region, where english locomotives where not usable.
17:41<fjb>Yes, just look at the japan set for TTD. :-)
17:41<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: err... what?
17:41<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't know that the alpine climate set was that old
17:41<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: heating steam is taken directly from the boiler... it's not a waste product
17:42<Gonozal_VIII>after it expanded to normal pressure it's still warm... or not?
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17:43<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: heating steam was invented to replace the need for burning coal in every car. In case of derailment then only the fireman and driver will be hit by burning coal and there was a fair chance that the wooden cars wouldn't catch fire
17:43<@Bjarni>they did that a lot when the burning coal fell out on the wooden floors/walls
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>oh they actually did that?
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>i thought that was my idea just now^^
17:44<@Bjarni>imagine your model railroad. Something gets stuck while the locomotive moves on and all the cars falls over on the side
17:44<@Bjarni>imagine heating in the cars using coal
17:44<@Bjarni>the coal will also fell over and set fire to whatever they touch
17:45<@Bjarni>that's not a good thing with cars full of now injured people
17:45<@Bjarni>possibly with not quick way out
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm wouldn't touch anything from inside the oven...
17:45<@Bjarni>s/not/no
17:46<fjb>In the early years of railway the pessengers were locked inside the cars, to prevent them from accidently falling out of the cars.
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>passengers are still locked inside the cars?
17:47<fjb>They are again locked inside the cars. That is new since about two years.
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>hmm no.. that's much longer here
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>second generation of locked cars on my small sideline
17:48<@Bjarni>hmm
17:48<@Bjarni>I can't find anything about this online
17:48<@Bjarni>I know what it looks like
17:48<@Bjarni>and how to operate it
17:49<fjb>It's really new in germany. And many old locomotives lost their licence to drive on german railroads because they have no ability to lock the passenger cars.
17:49<@Bjarni>and I have pictures in my head on what it looks like
17:49<Gonozal_VIII>the most recent wagons have buttons to open the doors
17:50<fjb>But what happens in case of an accident. Look at the the german ICe accident. They had a hard time to free the injured people from the the crashed cars.
17:50<Gonozal_VIII>before that there were/are the cars with a metal lever thingy... you can hear a "click" when it unlocks
17:50<fjb>The fireman were not able to break the windows of the ICE.
17:51<@Bjarni>that sucks
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17:51<Gonozal_VIII>they should break easily when you hit them on the marked areas
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>and there is always emergency unlock for the doors
17:51<fjb>The new ICe has windows that break when you hit a certain point with a sharp thing.
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>the old didn't?
17:52<fjb>You could only break the windows from the inside, not the outside.
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i think you could pull the rubber out of the frame
17:52<@Bjarni>http://www.l-eriksen.dk/toge/fast/sjaelland/stkbh/stationer/lygten/1/98651.jpg <-- finally found a picture of a train with heating steam on
17:52<@Bjarni>and then it's a diesel :P
17:52<fjb>But the people in the crashed train were barely alive, impossible for them to free themselfs.
17:53<Wolf01>'night
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17:53<fjb>The ICE has no rubber around the windows, they are glued.
17:53[~]Bjarni will no longer have ICE in Denmark
17:53<@Bjarni>:P
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm some train windows have that
17:54<Gonozal_VIII>you can pull that rubbery stuff out and the window falls out
17:54<fjb>Oh, yeah. Diesel locomotives for passenger trains used to have a genrator for heating steam.
17:54<Gonozal_VIII>or in... and smashes you :-)
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17:56<@Bjarni><fjb> Oh, yeah. Diesel locomotives for passenger trains used to have a genrator for heating steam. <-- well... the issue was that they had a whole lot of cars designed for heating steam. Then they replaced steam locomotives with diesel and then to ensure that they could still heat the wagons they installed heating steam boilers in them
17:56<@Bjarni>but they were semi automatic and used diesel as fuel instead of coal
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17:58<fjb>Some used the main diesel engine to generate that steam.
17:58<fjb>So the locomotived hat not the full power when also heating passenger cars.
18:00<@Bjarni>how did that work?
18:00<@Bjarni>I mean how would the engine itself produce steam?
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>you mix water into the diesel :-)
18:01<fjb>:-)
18:01<fjb>Hm, maybe I'm wrong here. I have to read about it again.
18:02<fjb>I guess i mixed it with electric heating.
18:02<fjb>Shame on me.
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>they don't use steam for that^^
18:04<@Bjarni>http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/GG1/4877.jpg <-- this one had a heating boiler as well
18:04<@Bjarni>I once saw a picture of one with the safety valve open... looked kind of strange from an electric engine
18:04<fjb>:-)
18:05<@Bjarni>yeah... diesel locomotives can supply power for electric heating in the cars
18:05<fjb>I guess every passenger Diesel or electric locomotive build in the 1950s had a heating boiler.
18:06<Gonozal_VIII>i steal power from the railway company :D
18:06<Prof_Frink>I steal rails from the railway company.
18:06<Gonozal_VIII>i unplug my laptop some hours before i take the train home and load it in the train
18:06<@Bjarni>I even heard of a diesel locomotive with a prime mover and a heating engine. The sole purpose of the heating engine was to produce power for electric heating. They were refitted into the engines when it turned out that they had problems climbing a certain hill when they had the heat on
18:07<@Bjarni><fjb> I guess every passenger Diesel or electric locomotive build in the 1950s had a heating boiler. <-- no... our diesels lack heating steam and to make it fun we need it next weekend so we actually had to borrow one with heating steam :/
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18:08<@Bjarni><Prof_Frink> I steal rails from the railway company. <-- not even funny. I know a driver who had to make an emergency stop because somebody had stolen the rail
18:08<Prof_Frink>Pfft, my nuculer train heats itself!
18:08<@Bjarni>just one of them and just one but it's still reason enough to make an emergency stop
18:09<@Bjarni>but... what group of moronic people goes to a forest to steal a single railroad rail
18:09<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: I'm not stupid
18:09<Prof_Frink>I steal them from *behind* the train!
18:10<@Bjarni>and carries it away though the forest by hand (since there is no access for vehicles other than trains)
18:10<fjb>They sell the steel. You get much money for metal today.
18:10<Gonozal_VIII>the rail wasn't stolen
18:10<@Bjarni>I don't know if they ever figured out whatever actually happened to that rail
18:10[~]Prof_Frink rings up train company
18:11<Gonozal_VIII>there was obviously an ufo on the rails that got blown up
18:11<@Bjarni><fjb> They sell the steel. You get much money for metal today. <-- it was 20+ years ago
18:11<Prof_Frink>"Hi, I hear you need a new rail"
18:11<Prof_Frink>"It just so happens I've come into possession of one *just the right length*"
18:12<@Bjarni>funny thing is... the rail was actually broken and it should be replaced so not only did they steal a rail, they stole a broken one
18:12<@Bjarni>at least I think it was broken
18:12<fjb>I bet that rail got sold. They are even steeling the cables for the electric power supply of the locomotives. Some thieves died when doing that.
18:12<@Bjarni>I can't imagine anybody being stupid enough to carry a whole rail... it had to be one of those that was already broken into pieces
18:13<Prof_Frink>fjb: Well, the cables are generally stolen for the copper
18:13|-|Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-39-241.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:13<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Just do what everyone else does.
18:13<Gonozal_VIII>there are many metal stealers with darwin awards^^
18:13<Prof_Frink>Blame the bloody students
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18:13<@Bjarni><fjb> I bet that rail got sold. They are even steeling the cables for the electric power supply of the locomotives. Some thieves died when doing that. <-- some guy in South Africa died when he tried to steal copper from the catenary while the power was on
18:14<Prof_Frink>Well, he'd be fine until he tried to get down
18:14<@Bjarni><Prof_Frink> Blame the bloody students <-- that would backfire as I'm a student :P
18:14<Prof_Frink>Blame the bloody students from Hull then.
18:14<@Bjarni> <Prof_Frink> Well, he'd be fine until he tried to get down <-- the pylon is connected to the ground...
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>they even steal iron columns and get smashed by the roof that was supported by them
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18:15<Prof_Frink>Damn you, spoiling all my cunning plans
18:15<Prof_Frink>Maybe it was a plastic pylon.
18:15<@Bjarni>it was only a 3kV catenary
18:15<@Bjarni>would have been more fun if it were their 50 kV catenary :P
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18:15<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: I read that as well XD
18:16<@Bjarni>Some years ago in South Africa, a driver working an electric train on a early morning trip across the open country south of Johannesburg discovered a burnt body lying across the overhead catenary. The man had been trying to cut the wires so he could steal the valuable copper cable. Of course, he had been fried by the current, which unknown to him, was switched on at 3000 volts DC.
18:18<Prof_Frink>current at 3000V?
18:19<Prof_Frink>Last time I checked, *voltage* was measured in volts.
18:19<@Bjarni>yeah
18:19<@Bjarni>but some people...
18:20<Prof_Frink>Voltage in volts, wattage in watts and ampage in amps :)
18:20<Prof_Frink>current in buns.
18:20<Gonozal_VIII>wattage and ampage? :D
18:20<Gonozal_VIII>bunnies?
18:20<Prof_Frink>No, buns.
18:21<Prof_Frink>bunnies make observations on what a C2D would be like if it were made of discrete transistors
18:21<@Bjarni>it reminds me of a description of a device. It was a closed alu box with a piece of wood in it (cut to fit). A power cable was attached into the wood and the other end was plugged directly into a power outlet.... that was an air cleaner and it was great because it didn't hurt your electric bill at all because it didn't use any volts
18:21<@Bjarni>but it cleaned the air in the entire room in just a few minutes
18:22<Prof_Frink>http://bunny.frozenreality.co.uk/index.php?id=1049
18:22<Gonozal_VIII>i read that everyday :-)
18:23<@Bjarni>valves....
18:23<@Bjarni>overflow....
18:23<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: RSS
18:23<@Bjarni>On day while working a train into a station, I saw two East Indian gentlemen on the platform with an large floor rug stretched out between them. They were beating the rug with a wooden stick. When I'd stopped in the station, I asked them, "What's the matter fellas, won't it start?" Contribution sent in by Steve Tammy, January 2001.
18:23<@Bjarni>hahaha
18:23<Gonozal_VIII>i have my own system
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>(don't click on "Alle")
18:24<@Bjarni>why not?
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>it opens every link
18:24<@Bjarni>creative naming
18:25<Prof_Frink>Oh, now you tell me
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>could cause problems if your browser is not set to open every link in a tab...
18:25<@Bjarni>Girl Genius makes a 404
18:25<fjb>Clicking on "Alle" does nothing. :-)
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>some links are broken... not very up to date
18:26<Gonozal_VIII>enable javascript then^^
18:26<Prof_Frink>Well, it opened all in tabs... then I deployed c-a-esc on konqui
18:26<fjb>Javascript is evel. :-)
18:26<@Bjarni>hmm... Girl Genius looks a whole lot like fiction. I guess some people can get a kick of of that statement
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>i even managed to make the page generate cookies with the dropdown 0-5 stuff :-)
18:27<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: No SA
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>what?
18:28<Prof_Frink>SequentialArt
18:29[~]fjb only knows ASCII Art.
18:30|-|Tlustoch [~last_evol@r5bn73.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:31<Gonozal_VIII>i'll add that the next time i update the page
18:31<Sacro>back
18:32<fjb>front
18:32<@Bjarni>Sacro: done "reading" your hentai?
18:33|-|Szandor [~a@host-83-146-12-110.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #openttd
18:34<@Bjarni>no reply...
18:34<@Bjarni>means no objection :P
18:35<fjb>:-)
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>aaaand.. sequentialart can only be read in sequence? how do i reach page 1 there?^^
18:36<fjb>http://www.collectedcurios.com/sequentialart.html
18:37<Gonozal_VIII>so?
18:37|-|stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-171-87-247.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:38<Prof_Frink>look at the image URL.
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>yes but then it's only the image without the next buttons..
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>don't want to change numbers all the time^^
18:39<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Get with the < then
18:40<@Bjarni>create your own frame then
18:40<@Bjarni>with a next button and get the URL
18:40<Gonozal_VIII>i'm too lazy to change numbers in the url but i will write my own frame... sure...
18:41<Gonozal_VIII>that html source is weird
18:41<@Bjarni>alternatively you can make your own cartoons
18:42<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Like I said. <
18:42<Gonozal_VIII>i won't click that < 354 times
18:43<@Bjarni>make a script to click automatically once you are done reading
18:43<fjb>Why do people always try to reinvent the browser buttons...?
18:43<@Bjarni>make your webcam follow your eyemovements
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>how should the script know when i'm done reading?^^
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
18:43<@Bjarni>so if you look away then it forwards until you look at the screen and looks away again
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18:43<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> how should the script know when i'm done reading?^^ <-- I just told you :)
18:44<@Bjarni>alternatively you can do as they did in the metro in Copenhagen. Use a timer and hope that it works
18:44[~]Bjarni has yet to see a metro train leave the busiest station where people were done getting in and out
18:45<@Bjarni>even though they doubled the time at that station it's still not enough
18:45<@Bjarni>that is what you get for running on the timer instead of actually checking if people are getting in or out
18:46<Gonozal_VIII>they have a timer here too but it only prevents the doors from opening, it doesn't shut them if they're already open
18:46<@Bjarni>here they close the doors then time is up
18:46<@Bjarni>hitting people if they have to
18:46<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: How about 35?
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>huh?
18:47<Prof_Frink>The < works not like you think.
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>ooooooh
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>me happy be
18:49<@Bjarni>heh
18:49<@Bjarni>always nice to get feedback telling what in the code that fucks up
18:50<@Bjarni>instead of the usual "this doesn't work"
18:51<fjb>Hm, this doesn't work.
18:51<@Bjarni>:P
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18:55<Sacro>!calc -7 / ( 5 * sqrt(2) )
18:55<Sacro>...
18:55<Sacro>!calc 2+2
18:55<Sacro>grr
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18:55<Gonozal_VIII>@calc 1+1
18:55<@DorpsGek>Gonozal_VIII: 2
18:55<Gonozal_VIII>:P
18:56<Sacro>@calc -7 / ( 5 * sqrt(2) )
18:56<@DorpsGek>Sacro: -0.989949493661
18:56<Sacro>is that in radians?
18:56<Sacro>no...
18:56<Sacro>i need to cos that
18:56<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: now would be an excellent time to demand your school money back
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18:56<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>2 + 2 = 5
18:57<Gonozal_VIII>for big 2 and small 5 :-)
18:58<@Bjarni>during a math lecture a few months ago the professor asked a rhetorical question. "Is there a number that's both equal 5 and -5 at the same time". Somebody yelled "42"
18:58<@Bjarni>and everybody laughed
18:58<fjb>:-)
18:58<@Bjarni>the point was to prove that the equation had no solution
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>sqrt(25) :-)
18:59<@Bjarni>yeah but sqrt(25) wasn't in our pool of numbers for the solution
18:59<@Bjarni>you know... N, Z and so on
19:00<@Bjarni>at least I hope you have an idea of what I just said ;)
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>i have :P
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19:05<+glx>ℕ, ℤ, ... indeed
19:05<@Bjarni>heh
19:05<@Bjarni>didn't bother with unicode
19:05<@Bjarni>but yes that's how they are written
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>...
19:05<@Bjarni>...?
19:06<+glx>and Gonozal_VIII can't see them :)
19:06<@Bjarni>that calls for a kick
19:06<@Bjarni>look at the topic
19:06<+glx>I even have ㏀, ㏁, ... in the font
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>everybody wants to kick me :-(
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>¯_¯_
19:07<@Bjarni>the channel rules says that it's not allowed to complain that you can't see the unicode chars somebody else writes in here
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>i have stuff like that
19:08<@Bjarni>ensure that you use a good font and UTF-8
19:08<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: was kiloohms and megaohms
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19:08<+glx>arial unicode contains a lot of nice stuff :)
19:09<Gonozal_VIII>it was upper half block and lower half block...
19:09<@Bjarni>hmm
19:09<@Bjarni>I never actually selected a font... I opened Xchat for the first time and it looked nice with whatever it picked for me so I never changed it
19:10<@Bjarni>and it appears like it contains more or less all chars
19:10<@Bjarni>I have yet to find missing chars in it
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>did you see the blocks?
19:10<@Bjarni>are the blocks UTF-8?
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>pfffff
19:11<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> ¯_¯_ <-- you mean this?
19:11<Gonozal_VIII>that's A with ^ and some lines...
19:11<+glx>[01:07:36] <Gonozal_VIII> ¯_¯_ <-- that's what I see
19:11<@Bjarni>I see the same as glx
19:11<@Bjarni>I think
19:12<@Bjarni>4 lines
19:12<@Bjarni>two upper and two lower
19:12<Gonozal_VIII>shouldn' be lines but blocks
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19:12<+glx>I see square_square_
19:12<@Bjarni>looks like a square clock signal
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19:12<Gonozal_VIII>arial unicode u 2580
19:13<Gonozal_VIII>and u 2584
19:14<@Bjarni>▀▄
19:14<+glx>▀▄
19:14<@Bjarni>that's two boxes on my screen
19:14<+glx>I have them too :)
19:14<@Bjarni>using the two numbers you just siad
19:14<@Bjarni>*said
19:15<Gonozal_VIII>you could make a checkboard with the, yay :-)
19:15<Gonozal_VIII>m
19:15<@Bjarni>挂 <-- looks like the unicode palette finds this char related to u 2584
19:15<@Bjarni>it's u 6302
19:15<@Bjarni>I fail to see how they are related though
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>i see ae CE
19:16<@Bjarni>maybe this char means box in Chinese or something
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>OE
19:17<@Bjarni>it's two against one
19:17<ln->▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄
19:17<ln->▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄
19:17<ln->▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄
19:17<ln->▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄
19:17<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: please fix your font/encoding
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>can't
19:17<@Bjarni>ln-: good one :)
19:17<ln->Gonozal_VIII: then stop complaining about it because it's obviously you who is not following the standard.
19:17<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIIIのばか
19:18<+glx>╔═╗
19:18<+glx>╚═╝
19:19<@Bjarni>this reminds me of C64
19:19<@Bjarni>you could make such chars on that one as well
19:19<+glx>I used this a lot on ZX81
19:19<+glx>there were keys for that
19:19<@Bjarni>never used ZX81
19:19<@Bjarni>but I used it on my C64
19:19<@Bjarni>it had keys for it
19:20<@Bjarni>well.. it was the normal char keys, but if I held down a function key then it drew chars like that
19:20<+glx>it was doable on CPC6128 but not as easy
19:20<Sacro>ln-: wtf
19:20<@Bjarni>each key had a letter in upper and lower case and then two special chars
19:20<ln->Sacro: elaborate
19:20<Sacro>how do you find a perpendicular vector
19:20<@Bjarni>a bit messy on the print since each key had 3 icons
19:20<Sacro>i have 4,2
19:21<ln->the dot product
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm in my software engineering lecture yesterday the professor said he thinks eiffel is the best oo language available... that true?
19:22<ln->Gonozal_VIII: do you think he would have lied to you about what he thinks?
19:22<+glx>eiffel is a lisp language
19:22<Sacro>ln-: oh?
19:22<+glx>IIRC
19:23<+glx>smalltalk is the most OO :)
19:23<+glx>everything is object
19:24|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>yes we also talked about that but it wasn't about most oo
19:27<Gonozal_VIII>i found the pdf :-)
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19:31<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/oo.PNG
19:32<Gonozal_VIII>he also added c# during the lecture...
19:35<Gonozal_VIII>eiffel really that good?
19:35<Gonozal_VIII>then why is it not used more?
19:36<@Bjarni>I wonder about obj C
19:36<Gonozal_VIII>he said that obj c is used again
19:36<@Bjarni>if it's that old and not used in newer stuff then why did Apple code OSX in it?
19:36<+glx>and why OTTD use it too ;)
19:36<@Bjarni>we have obj C in OpenTTD
19:37<Gonozal_VIII>i thought that's c++
19:37<@Bjarni>as a gateway to the system stuff
19:37<@Bjarni>the game itself is written in C++
19:37<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: check .mm files
19:37<@Bjarni>the .mm files are obj C
19:37<+glx>there were .m files in C times
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>obj C++ i thought
19:38<@Bjarni>technically it's obj C++ because they are prepared to be linked to cpp files instead of c files
19:38<@Bjarni>but none of the content really changed
19:38<Gonozal_VIII>obj c++ :S c++ is oo without obj in front...
19:38<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: I'm currently watching the SP episode with the gnomes :)
19:38<@Bjarni>I think we can revert them back to .m and if the headers were correct then they would still work
19:38<ln->Gonozal_VIII: obj-C++ is not the same as C+++
19:38<ln->-+
19:39<Eddi|zuHause2>that's one of the few i actually watched...
19:39<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> obj c++ :S c++ is oo without obj in front... <-- obj C and C++ use different types of objects. obj C++ can handle both
19:39<Gonozal_VIII>you can watch them all at southparkzone :-)
19:39<@Bjarni>and it's used as a bridge between our C++ code and Apple's frameworks in obj C
19:40<@Bjarni>anyway
19:40<@Bjarni>time for bed
19:40<@Bjarni>goodnight
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>bed is a good idea...
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>good night
19:40<@Bjarni>hey
19:40<@Bjarni>you guys aren't allowed to go to MY bed
19:40<@Bjarni>so don't steal my idea >_<
19:40<ln->sacro is already there
19:40<+glx>lol
19:40<@Bjarni>...
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>im in ur bed stealin ur sleep
19:40[~]Sacro warms it up
19:41[~]Bjarni burns his bed
19:41<@Bjarni>it was infested :(
19:42<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> im in ur bed stealin ur sleep <-- I wouldn't mind not having to sleep right now
19:43<@Bjarni>but that's my wishful thinking
19:43<@Bjarni>my brain wants to sleep
19:43<@Bjarni>so I'm out of here
19:43[~]Bjarni picks up a gun in case the Sacro story turns out to be true
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19:43[~]Sacro sighs
19:44<Sacro>@calc 16+9
19:44<@DorpsGek>Sacro: 25
19:44<Sacro>ah yes
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19:45<Gonozal_VIII>why did you calculate 16+9?
19:45<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: well
19:45<Sacro>i have a triangle
19:45<Sacro>sides 4 and 2
19:45<Sacro>and i needed the other
19:45<Sacro>that's not right
19:45<+glx>is it rectangle?
19:45<Sacro>cock ><
19:46<Sacro>i wanted 16+4 :(
19:46<+glx>sqrt(20)
19:46<Gonozal_VIII>could be anything if it's not a special triangle
19:46<Sacro>@calc sqrt(20)
19:46<@DorpsGek>Sacro: 4.472135955
19:46<+glx>= 2 * sqrt(5)
19:47<+glx>@calc 2 * sqrt(5)
19:47<@DorpsGek>glx: 4.472135955
19:47<+glx>yeah my math still work :)
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19:49<Sacro>2 root 5?
19:49<Sacro>:\
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>partial root
19:50<Gonozal_VIII>20 = 4*5 so sqrt(20) is sqrt(4) * sqrt(5) :-)
19:50<Sacro>oh yes
19:50<Sacro>my surd knowledge just went out the window
19:50<+glx>anyway a²+b²=c² is valid for rectangle one only
19:50<Gonozal_VIII>[01:46:25] Gonozal_VIII: could be anything if it's not a special triangle
19:51<Eddi|zuHause2>you need 3 values to describe a triangle
19:51<+glx>for others you should use sin, cos or tan
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19:51<ThePizzaKing>But those are whacked out formulas that I never remember
19:51<ThePizzaKing>I just make them up and hope they work
19:52<Sacro>i need moar help :(
19:52<Sacro>i have p^
19:52<Sacro>and a point
19:52<Eddi|zuHause2>they are easy to remember
19:52<ThePizzaKing>Something like, sin(a)/A = sin(b)/B = sin(c)/C
19:53<+glx>phase 1: collect underpants
19:53<+glx>phase 2: ?
19:53<+glx>phase 3: profits
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20:14<Sacro>-2 over sqrt{20} times 2
20:14<Sacro>would that equal -4 over sqrt{20}?
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>naaah
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20:16<Sacro>hmm, so 8 over sqrt{20}
20:16<Sacro>thats 8 over 5sqrt{2}?
20:17<Sacro>no 8 over 2sqrt{5}
20:17<Gonozal_VIII>mhm
20:18<Sacro>hmm
20:18<Sacro>8 over 2root5
20:18<Sacro>would that be 4 over root5?
20:18<ThePizzaKing>yes
20:18<ThePizzaKing>yes
20:18<ThePizzaKing>that's right
20:19<Gonozal_VIII>...
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20:19<Sacro>holy crap thats complex
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20:19<Gonozal_VIII>try it with @calc...
20:20<Sacro>yeah... cos that'll work :p
20:20<Sacro>wtf is a parametric equation ><
20:20<ThePizzaKing>I knew what that was 4 months ago
20:20<ThePizzaKing>Not now
20:20<ThePizzaKing>Wikipedia!
20:21<ThePizzaKing>ah, an equation which has a parameter in, of course
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>^^
20:23<Sacro>grr
20:23<Sacro>damn tutor shoves all his powerpoint stuff into a PDF
20:23<Sacro>which totally screws up the animations
20:24|-|KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-137-219.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:25<oh>does vehicle replacement cause desync in 0.6b or is it just me?
20:26<Sacro>can't just be you
20:26<Sacro>it takes 2 to desync
20:26<Gonozal_VIII>only sometimes with the manual replace in the depot
20:26|-|Diabolic1Angel [~dia@xdsl-81-173-254-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:27<oh>been one long desync fest on all servers I've been to lately
20:27<Gonozal_VIII>maybe your pc is too slow to keep up
20:27<oh>nigh on every time I use autoreplace I get booted :<
20:27<oh>and no ;P
20:28<Sacro>should you use ( ) or [ ] for vectors?
20:28<Sacro>+column
20:29<Sacro>oh hell
20:29<Sacro>WE'VE GONE TO 3 DIMENSIONS D:
20:30<ThePizzaKing>That's always fun
20:30<Gonozal_VIII>myths! that many dimensions can't possibly exist!
20:30<ThePizzaKing>My lecurer sometimes uses () and other times uses []
20:31<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: i agree...
20:31<Sacro>and the 2 ronnies is making me laugh too much
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20:38[~]Sacro cries
20:39<Sacro>cross product of 3 dimensional vectors :(
20:42<ThePizzaKing>Isn't that the determinant of the matrix with the vectors (x,y,z) and the two being crossed as the rows
20:43<Sacro>yeah
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21:15<Sacro>ThePizzaKing: any idea on how to mulitply matrixes?
21:15<ln->how about matrices
21:16<Sacro>:p
21:16<Sacro>same difference
21:17<ln->just take the first from both, multiply them, add, take second ones, multiply, add, write result, and so on.
21:18<Sacro>isn't that the dot product?
21:19<ThePizzaKing>you go accross on the first one and down on the second
21:19<ThePizzaKing>it's sort of hard to explain
21:20<ThePizzaKing>like the dot product of the top row in the first one and the first column in the second to get the first number
21:20<Sacro>:\
21:23<Sacro>i don't get this
21:23<Sacro>i've found a website that will tell me the answer
21:23<Sacro>but now how to calculate it
21:24<ThePizzaKing>Like [a b]\n[c d] multiplied by [e f]\n[g h] is [(a*e + b*g) (a*f + b*h)]\n[(c*e + d*g) (c*f + d*h)]
21:25<Sacro>:\
21:25<ThePizzaKing>I don't know how well wikipedia explains it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplying_matrices
21:26<Sacro>nope, that's way over my head
21:26<Sacro>at 2:30 am
21:27<Sacro>oooooooooh
21:27<Sacro>you put one above and one to the side
21:27<Sacro>and then filter inwards
21:28[~]AntB was lost at matrices
21:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11578 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
21:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Introduce the window default flag WDF_TEXTENTRY which specifies that the window holding it is actually one that enables an edit box.
21:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Use this flag when dispatching a key event instead of using some hard coded window IDs.
21:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: This should ease a little bit the creation of new edit aware windows.
21:39<ThePizzaKing>Sacro: Here's the page I had on it for University: http://img464.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outmo7.jpg
21:40<Sacro>ThePizzaKing: yeah, that's similar to what we where shown
21:40<Sacro>but i prefer the wikipedia way
21:40<Sacro>and drawing it all out
21:40<Sacro>right, how to solve linear equations using matrix methods
21:41<ThePizzaKing>that's fun
21:41<Sacro>any clues?
21:41<Sacro>i'm sure he hasn't taught this one
21:42<ThePizzaKing>you put the equations as rows in the matrix
21:42<ThePizzaKing>so 2x + 3y - 7z = 2 becomes [2 3 7 2]
21:42<ln->just write down the coefficients in the matrix, do some operations, profit.
21:43<ThePizzaKing>that's pretty much it
21:43<Sacro>operations?
21:43<ThePizzaKing>Like add one row to another
21:43<ln->or add one row to another and multiply
21:44<Sacro>:\
21:44<Sacro>so i have 2 , 1, 2 \n 4, 5, 5
21:44<ThePizzaKing>And you want all leading numbers to have zeros below them at the ned
21:45<ThePizzaKing>so you take 2* row 1 from row 2
21:45<ThePizzaKing>2, 1, 2 \n 0, 3, 1
21:45<Sacro>:\
21:45<Sacro>how'd you get that?
21:46<ThePizzaKing>you multiply the first row by 2, and then subtract it from the second row
21:46<Sacro>that's just a normal simultaneous equation
21:46<Sacro>nothing special
21:47<ThePizzaKing>yeah, that's pretty much all it is
21:49<Sacro>so i have 4 2 4
21:49<Sacro>then err
21:49<Sacro>4 5 5 minus 4 2 4 gives 0 3 1?
21:49<ThePizzaKing>yeah
21:50<Sacro>so that means that y = 3?
21:50<Sacro>or 1/3
21:50<ThePizzaKing>1/3
21:50<Sacro>3y =1
21:51<ThePizzaKing>and then you sub that into the first row
21:51<ThePizzaKing>2x + y = 2
21:52<Sacro>yeah
21:53<Sacro>do i shove in the 0 3 1?
21:53<Sacro>4 2 4 * 3 = 12 6 12
21:53<Sacro>0 3 1 * 4 = 0 12 4
21:53<Sacro>hmm, that's not right
21:53<Sacro>0 3 1 * 2 = 0 6 2
21:54<ThePizzaKing>no, just put in the y = 1/3 into the 2x + y = 2
21:54<Sacro>then 12 0 10 ?
21:54<Sacro>but that's not a matrix method is it?
21:54|-|SpBot [terom@marttila.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:54<Sacro>oops, think the bot is confused
21:55<ThePizzaKing>I think you only use matrices until you get to the first number, or there abouts
21:55<ThePizzaKing>but you can go back up if you want
21:56<ThePizzaKing>so the 12 6 12 - 0 6 2 thing would work then
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21:57<ThePizzaKing>anyway, I've got to go now
21:57<ThePizzaKing>good luck Sacro
21:57<Sacro>thanks ThePizzaKing :)
21:57<Sacro>won't you stay another couple of mins and check my answers?
22:01<Sacro>ThePizzaKing: you still there?
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22:13<ln->isn't it quite trivial to check whether you got the correct answers for the equations?
22:13<Sacro>ln-: like how?
22:13<Sacro>no, i meant on the whole lot
22:14<Sacro>http://www.benwoodward.me.uk/Q.pdf for the questions
22:14<Sacro>http://www.benwoodward.me.uk/maths2.pdf for my answers
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22:20<ln->isn't it quite confusing to use × as the multiplication sign here...
22:21<Sacro>it looks different
22:21<Sacro>unless i've put x instead of times
22:21<ln->when you're operating with vectors, and you don't mean the cross product.
22:21<Sacro>which does happen
22:21<Sacro>where abouts?
22:21<Sacro>cos afaik i do mean the cross product
22:22<ln->in the answer for Q1 (1) 3a you don't mean the cross product as far as i understand.
22:22<Sacro>yes, true
22:22<Sacro>but i think that is the only one
22:23<ln->also the next one, a·b
22:23<ThePizzaKing>back
22:23<Sacro>yeah?
22:27<Sacro>any more comments?
22:29<ln->wtf is a cross-product of two matrices?
22:29<Sacro>question 4?
22:30<ln->yeah.
22:30<Sacro>i dunno :\
22:30<Sacro>but that one is right
22:30<ln->i would have got -6 and 16 on the bottom row
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22:33<ln->again, in (2) of 4, you certainly are not using the cross-product but ordinary multiplication (as is correct here).
22:33<Sacro>yeah
22:35<ln->but this (1) of 4, are you saying it is not supposed to be about normal matrix multiplication?
22:35<Sacro>err...
22:35<Sacro>that is right
22:35<Sacro>i think
22:37<ln->what does the resulting matrix represent?
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22:37<Sacro>no idea :\
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22:40<Sacro>ln-: what do you reckon?
22:40<ln->at least i have never heard of a cross product of matrices.
22:41<ln->while the cross product for vectors represents the vector that is perpendicular to both the parameter vectors.
22:41<ln->and that exercise so much looks like a normal matrix multiplication exercise.
22:42<Sacro>it's just a "suppose"
22:42<Sacro>so ...
22:42<Sacro>i did it wrong?
22:42<Sacro>no, that is matrix multiplicaion
22:43<ln->in my opinion the answer would be (19 -24)\n(-6 16)
22:44<ln->and it could be counted with zero intermediate steps on paper..
22:44<ln->but then, i'm not the math genius here.
22:44<Sacro>yeah
22:44<Sacro>o
22:45<Sacro>you're right
22:45<Sacro>h,,
22:45<Sacro>hmm
22:45<Sacro>-6, -16?
22:46<ln->yes, true, -16.
22:46<Sacro>http://wims.unice.fr/wims/wims.cgi?session=SJ2A2E938C.1&lang=en&cmd=reply&module=tool%2Flinear%2Fmatmult.en&matA=1%2C-2%0D%0A3%2C1&matB=1%2C-8%0D%0A-9%2C8&show=A*B
22:46<Sacro>seems to confirm it
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22:47<AntB>ah crap, forgot my company password on a server :(
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22:49<Sacro>ln-: any other complains?
22:50<ln->your syntax in (2) of 4 is really odd, but if you were taught that way, then...
22:51<Sacro>taught...?
22:51<Sacro>no i'm just winging it
22:52<ln->you don't really have any matrices in that, and you are supposed to be operating with matrices all the time.
22:52<Sacro>mmm
22:53<ThePizzaKing>If I could work out matrices in OpenOffice.org Math I'd show you how I'd set it out
22:53<ln->imho, you should be beginning with the matrix: (2 1 2)\n(4 5 5)
22:54<Sacro>ThePizzaKing: left [ matrix{1 # -2 ## 3 # ~1} right ]
22:54<ln->then marking which line you add to which, with what factor, and then write the matrix again with the appropriate line changed.
22:54<Sacro>ln-: yeah, i'll do that in the morrow
22:54<Sacro>before i print it and hand it in
22:54<ThePizzaKing>cool
22:55<ln->i think i'll go integrate my bed over [t0, t0+10h)
22:56<Sacro>but do all my answers look good?
23:05<ThePizzaKing>I would have set it out like this: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~the_pizza_king/eq.pdf
23:06<ThePizzaKing>Maybe with a few more notes on the side as to what I was doing
23:06<ThePizzaKing>I might not have done the last matrix step either, and just subed in the value for y
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23:13<Sacro>yeah
23:13<Sacro>i'll maybe modify it in the morning
23:13<Sacro>but tis like 4:15 am now :(
23:13<Sacro>and some twat is beeping his horn
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