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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-12-26

---Logopened Wed Dec 26 00:00:21 2007
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04:13<pavel1269>hi
04:14<ln->you're too early, go back to sleep.
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05:38<Wolf01>hello
05:48<Sacro>rawr
05:49|-|LA[lord] [~LAlord]@ip101.cab22.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
05:50<LA[lord]>hey
05:55<LA[lord]>does anyone know what do I have write to train nfo, if I want it only use ie passengers wagons. So that no other wagon could be attached..?
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06:09<roboboy>LA[lord], try this http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs
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06:18<LA[lord]>hmm, do you think I've not been on that page for ....hours now? :D
06:19<roboboy>ok sorry
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06:19<LA[lord]>I solved it so that I just made all wagons exept mail and pax to be monorail...I should make some better solution though
06:19<roboboy>some people dont even know about ttdpatch
06:19[~]LA[lord] thinks that he has now 9 slots free for additional trains...
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06:21[~]LA[lord] starts thinking of compiling NfoRenum for MDV2008
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06:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11701 /trunk/src/ (71 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: removal unnecessary inclusions of map.h (and split map.h).
06:51<LA[lord]>I'm a bit confuzed...If I want to make something to accept certain things, I have to use callback 'Get accepted cargo types (2A/2C)'
06:51<LA[lord]>That means I have to have action 3 or two or sth
06:52<LA[lord]>or to pt ut into other words how can I add callbacks
06:52<LA[lord]>and I've seen this http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CallbacksTut but it tells nothing about cargo acceptance
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07:17<LA[lord]>Is Action 4 for Generic strings supported by OpenTTD?
07:18<LA[lord]>Action4 Feature 48
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07:32<SmatZ>hello
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08:28<@Belugas>[07:23] <LA[lord]> Is Action 4 for Generic strings supported by OpenTTD? <-- yes, absolutely
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08:35<roboboy>gnight
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08:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11702 /trunk/src/ (76 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: move all date related stuff to date*.
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09:17<pv2b>heh. i'm in a game and i got suddently +12 billion euro as soon as a company went bankrupt i think
09:17<pv2b>anything i can do to preserve whatever state might be interesting for a bug report?
09:17<pv2b>this is ottd 0.5.3
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09:19<SmatZ>pv2b: singleplayer or multiplayer? did you buy any shares in versions pre-0.5.3 ?
09:19<SmatZ>do you have a savegame before that bankrupt?
09:19<pv2b>multiplayer
09:19<pv2b>no savegame before bankrupt
09:20<pv2b>(i had autosaves off)
09:20<pv2b>afaik not an old savegame,
09:20<pv2b>and i bought the shares in that game, not something that was loaded
09:20<pv2b>i have a savegame after the bankrupt though, might not be so sueful though, i dunno
09:20<pv2b>the company i bought had value €2 if that's interesting
09:21<pv2b>i wonder if this is exploitable *<;-)
09:21<pv2b>i.e. reproducible.
09:23<SmatZ>maybe some money overflow bug
09:23<SmatZ>it should be fixed in 0.6
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09:24<SmatZ>like that company had shares in other companies, they were sold, company value overflowed to high positive numbers, then its shares were sold to you
09:25<SmatZ>but it could be anything else
09:25<pv2b>all companies were really small
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09:25<pv2b>early in the game
09:25<SmatZ>hmm interesting
09:26<pv2b>could be underflow of some sort
09:26<pv2b>as i said, the only company i had shares is was worth €2
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09:29<pv2b>ok, another platyer in the game has autosaves so he's emailing them to me
09:29<pv2b>not sure if they're recent enough though, will check
09:29<SmatZ>pv2b: all money oveflow / underflow should be fixed in 0.6...
09:30<SmatZ>but if you have a savegame, it will be useful
09:30<pv2b>btw, the bankrupcy probably was through reset_company or autoclean
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09:48<SmatZ>pv2b: did you receive your email with that savegame?
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09:56<Gonozal_VIII>morning
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10:13<LordAzamath>what does it mean if grfcodec gives error: Sprite y extends beyond end of pcx file. file has 48 lines, sprite wants 48
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10:16<LordAzamath>nevermind, I fixed the problem
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10:18<Hideous>Hello?
10:19<Hideous>If anyone is there, I have a question to ask
10:19<hylje>hi!
10:20<Hideous>Just because I am confused about airports:
10:20<Hideous>How do I get the money that my planes generate?
10:20<Hideous>It says they have a high profit in the plane list
10:21<Hideous>But I see nothing of that
10:22<hylje>when the planes unload
10:22<Hideous>Yeah?
10:23<Hideous>Oh I think I have it now |?|
10:23<Hideous>>_>
10:24<+glx>are you using transfer?
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10:25<Hideous>Yeah, I was
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10:54<LordAzamath>ok, I'll ask one question that I asked before, but nobody answered, maybe now some guys have joined, who know the answer...
10:55<LordAzamath>How can I make it so that only certain wagons can be attached to certani train
10:55<LordAzamath>Like if I'd like chimeara to only be with pax wagons...
10:56<Gonozal_VIII>no idea... decode a grf that does that and look how it's done there
10:56<+glx>LordAzamath: you need to use callbacks
10:57<LordAzamath>that I already figured out :D
10:58<LordAzamath>should it be then http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Can_wagon_be_attached_1D_
10:58<LordAzamath>?
10:58<+glx>yes
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10:59<+glx>you define callback code using action 02 and "attach" it to your engine using action 03
10:59<LordAzamath>hmm..
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10:59<LordAzamath>like defining new graphics?
11:00<LordAzamath>with action2
11:00<+glx>check http://wiki2.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CallbacksTut
11:01<LordAzamath>I was there today...I didn't understand everything..I'm going to read it again now..
11:03<pv2b>SmatZ: i've got the email. just need to open it to see if it's relevant
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11:04<LordAzamath>but which callback bit should I activate with action0 for train?
11:05<LordAzamath>Load amount...don't think so....
11:05<LordAzamath>oh..this doesn't need to be activated
11:05<pv2b>SmatZ: yep, i have it.
11:05<LordAzamath>"Callbacks 1D (Can wagon be attached?), 23 (Additional text in purchase screen), 31 (Start/stop check), 32 (32-day callback), 34 (Autoreplace vehicle selection) and 36 (Change Vehicle Properties) do not need a bit to activate them, they are always active and will be used if defined in the action 3/action 2 chain."
11:05<pv2b>SmatZ: you want it? send me a /msg *<:-)
11:06<pv2b>bbl.
11:06<+glx>LordAzamath: "The callback is always used when defined, no bit in the action 0 property needs to be set to activate it." in cb 1D doc
11:06<LordAzamath>Yes, I read this :D
11:06<Gonozal_VIII>let the cargo change from passengers to litres of passengers after the supersonic train had to stop at a red light :-)
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11:07<LordAzamath>lol
11:07<LordAzamath>tonns of pax
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11:09<LordAzamath_>"Set a default for the value that the callback modifies, e.g. set prop 07 when using the load amount callback" ...hmm what does 1D modify
11:13<+glx>nothing
11:13<LordAzamath_>then value should I set :( I get so confused there
11:14<+glx>you have nothing to set, the callback result is interpreted directly
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11:17<LordAzamath>oeh....I have read it soo many times, but still can't understand anything, but-> I need variational action 2'
11:18<LordAzamath>I'll give it up right now.
11:18<LordAzamath>Maybe later
11:19<LordAzamath>:(
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11:20<+glx>callbacks are indeed easy, you just need to understand the concept
11:21<LordAzamath>You meant "aren't" yes?
11:21<LordAzamath>:D
11:21<+glx>once you understand how it works it is very easy
11:22<LordAzamath>Ok..
11:23<+glx>xx * 14 02 00 07 81 0C 00 FF 01 FF 00 1D 1D FF FF <-- this allows every wagons and only cb 1D
11:23<LordAzamath>but I need action3 too..?
11:23<+glx>yes
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11:24<Ammler>guys, is the "prospecting bug" fixed?
11:24<strstrep>FS #1561
11:24<+glx>not yet Ammler
11:24<strstrep>Is there any way we can help pinpoint it?
11:24<Ammler>:)
11:25<Ammler>fast answer, did already someone ask about?
11:25<LordAzamath>ok..filling in the terms...
11:26<+glx>we know where it is, just didn't fully understand why it happens (it is very strange)
11:26<LordAzamath>feature 00 -> trains,
11:26<Ammler>glx: but "normal" funding works?
11:27<+glx>it's something with Random() in function call, like a(Random(), xxx, xxx, Random());
11:27<LordAzamath>Is there a special reason why id is 07? Could it be 00 too?
11:27<+glx>it can be anything you want LordAzamath
11:27<LordAzamath>:)
11:27<+glx>I just copy pasted (and adapted) a line from callbacktut page :)
11:28<LordAzamath>hahah
11:28<strstrep>Can you point me at a line, maybe I can poke around at it?
11:28<LordAzamath>but then type is 81 because "variable of the object in question"
11:29<+glx>strstrep: industry_cmd.cpp:1615
11:29<strstrep>Thanks, glx.
11:29<+glx>LordAzamath: and byte value
11:29<LordAzamath>hm
11:29<+glx>0C means current callback
11:29<LordAzamath>ok
11:30<LordAzamath>and feature specific
11:30<LordAzamath>I'm getting there :D
11:30<+glx>val(0C) >> 00 & FF
11:32<LordAzamath>varadjust and nvar are they?
11:32<LordAzamath>don't understand that part
11:32<+glx>then there is 01 options: if (1D <= result <= 1D) return 00FF (I did it wrong, should be FF 80 in the sprite), default return FFFF (fails)
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11:36<LordAzamath>too complicated...what does varadjust mean? and nvar...oeh..don't get this part at all
11:37<LordAzamath>I can understand until this part 00 FF 01 FF 00 1D 1D FF FF
11:37<Gonozal_VIII>[17:32:02] LordAzamath: varadjust and nvar are they? <-- i thought you were writing some strange foreign language when i read that line
11:37<+glx>this part should be 00 FF 01 FF 80 1D 1D FF FF :)
11:37<+glx>varadjust is 00 FF, nvar is 01
11:37<LordAzamath>why?
11:38<LordAzamath>varadjust-> 00 is shift num?
11:38<+glx>yes
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11703 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-12-26 17:33:24
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 16 changed by kristjans (16)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 94 fixed, 6 changed by meush (100)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 22 fixed by Smoky555 (22)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 11 fixed by eusebio (11)
11:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 25 fixed, 4 changed by xbddc (29)
11:39<LordAzamath>and ff and mask
11:39<+glx>so bits 6 and 7 are unset, meaning there's only an and-mask
11:39<LordAzamath>ok..what's and mask
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11:40<LordAzamath>value with which to AND the variable after shifting -> does not parse very well :D
11:40<+glx>(var >> shiftnum) & and-mask
11:42<Eddi|zuHause3>& FF means "keep every bit"
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11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>(or "do not modify"
11:43<+glx>indeed :) 00 FF means keep the var as it is
11:43<LordAzamath>next is 01 FF 80, as you said 01 for 1 option and ff 80 for...
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>01 means you check 1 range + default
11:44<Eddi|zuHause3>FF 80 is the return value if you fall in range 1
11:44<Eddi|zuHause3>range 1 is "between 1D and 1D"
11:45<Eddi|zuHause3>and FF FF is the return value otherwise (default)
11:46<LordAzamath>and what has it to do with selecting which wagons are permitted?
11:46<+glx>it has not :)
11:46<LordAzamath>ok...
11:47<LordAzamath>that's something to do with action 3?
11:47<+glx>what it does is just allow everything (depending on rail type) when using cb 1D (but it's a start)
11:47<LordAzamath>oh
11:47<LordAzamath>ok
11:48<+glx>action is used to tell what is the first action 02 for the vehicle
11:48<+glx>*action 03 is ...
11:48<Eddi|zuHause3>case (var0C):
11:48<Eddi|zuHause3> 1D: FF 80
11:48<Eddi|zuHause3> default: FF FF
11:49<+glx>not a C case, more a VB or delphi one
11:49<Eddi|zuHause3>that is what this line says
11:49<+glx>as you can have multiple values in the range
11:49<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
11:49<Eddi|zuHause3>but 1D..1D would be redundant in a higher level language ;)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause3>but... i was kinda developing a compiler anyway ;)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm almost where i want to be...
11:53<Eddi|zuHause3>but the first release is not going to support varaction2
11:53<+glx>you are doing a xxxtonfo compiler ?
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11:54<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah
11:54<Eddi|zuHause3>because i programmed 3 lines in NFO and it is annoying me too much ;)
11:55<LordAzamath>ok, so how can I specify that the train can use only pax wagons... as much as I understand now, you helped me to get train, which allows all wagons
11:55<Eddi|zuHause3>in 2 days work i am quite far, i have a plan for action0/1/2/3 support (for trains only, but it should be easily extendable)
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11:56<LordAzamath>if the rail types match
11:56<Gonozal_VIII>indian railways on 3sat...
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11:57<Eddi|zuHause3>not much to do with railways...
11:57<Gonozal_VIII>not atm...
11:57<Eddi|zuHause3>"die kinder vom bahnhof zoo" ;)
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>(i actually never read that book)
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11:58<Gonozal_VIII>was much more about trains before..
11:58<+glx>LordAzamath: the callback is called for the engine, but all vars checked are for the to be attached wagon
11:59<+glx>so you can use a varaction to check wagon cargo and return ok or not
11:59<Gonozal_VIII>see.. a train
11:59<LordAzamath>how
12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>but not in india ;)
12:00<+glx>it is var 47
12:00<Gonozal_VIII>india... south america... almost the same^^
12:01<LordAzamath>so another action2?
12:02[~]LordAzamath feels like a last n00b
12:02<Eddi|zuHause3>hah, a cinema in the train ;)
12:02<Gonozal_VIII>cinema train... nice
12:03<+glx>so something like xx * xx 02 00 01 85 47 10 01 01 FF 80 01 00 01 00 FF FF
12:04<+glx>hmm wrong, the correct one should be xx * xx 02 00 01 89 47 10 01 00 00 00 01 FF 80 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 FF FF
12:07<Eddi|zuHause3>now THAT is a broken down engine ;)
12:07<Gonozal_VIII>service interval too high :-)
12:07<Eddi|zuHause3>and literally in the middle of the pampa :p
12:08<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
12:08<LordAzamath>do I understand right that I need both action 2 in my nfo?
12:08<LordAzamath>:o
12:09<+glx>anyway default value in my example is not very good too, FD 80 would be better or xx 80 to use a better message than "incompatible rail type"
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12:11<Gonozal_VIII>they use a windows sound for announcements at that station?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm distracted
12:14<Gonozal_VIII>yes, it was tada.wav :D
12:15<LordAzamath>glx, if I put that thing into nfo and nforenum it it gives "//!!For feature 0 the following cargoIDs have not been used since their most recent definition:
12:15<LordAzamath>//!!01 (last defined at sprite 6)"
12:15<LordAzamath>where do I have to use the cargo id
12:18|-|HoTSteel [hotsteel@86.107.64.112] has joined #openttd
12:18<LordAzamath>how can there be such people who CAN code in nfo...It's just plain too difficult :(
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12:19<+glx>xx * xx 02 00 01 89 47 10 01 00 00 00 01 FF 80 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 FD 80
12:19<+glx>xx * xx 02 00 02 81 0C 00 FF 01 01 00 1D 1D FF FF
12:19<+glx>xx * xx 03 00 01 yy 00 02 00
12:19<+glx>should do it (yy is the engine id)
12:20<LordAzamath>engine is 57 (chimeara)
12:21<HoTSteel>hy guys.. does someone know how shared orders works? I`m new in ottd and I try to understand some parts
12:21<pv2b>- Feature: Introduce a form of timetabling for vehicles (r10236) <-- how do you use this?
12:21<pv2b>HoTSteel: shared orders are easy.
12:21<pv2b>HoTSteel: you have multiple vehicles
12:21<pv2b>and you want them all to work with the same orders
12:21<HoTSteel>for you..
12:21<HoTSteel>:)
12:21<pv2b>but if you change the orders you want all of them to change
12:22<pv2b>not just one
12:22<HoTSteel>take it slow
12:22<Gonozal_VIII>clone vehicles with strg pressed --> shared orders
12:22<+glx>so action 03 says use action 02 with id 02, this action 02 checks the callback and do action 02 id 01 to test wagon cargo class
12:22<pv2b>so first you make a "model vehicle" with all the orders you want
12:22<HoTSteel>ok..lets see
12:22<pv2b>then you can for a vehicle with an empty order list do a go to, then ctrl-click the model vehicle
12:23<pv2b>and voila, they're shared. if you want to disconnect a vehicle from shared orders, click "ed of shared order list" and press delete
12:23<pv2b>don't just delete the order lines one by one or you'll delete the orders from all vehicles with those shared orders
12:23<HoTSteel>ok... I`m going to test that
12:23<pv2b>and as Gonozal_VIII said, if you want to clone a vehicle and make it so it has shared orders already hold ctrl while you clone it
12:24<Gonozal_VIII>as for the timetable thing... that's strange and i don't know how it's supposed to work
12:24<LordAzamath>glx, your code broke OpenTTD :D
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12:25<+glx>I'm not a grf expert :)
12:25<LordAzamath>I made a new vehicle (chimeara) and bought coal car
12:25<Gonozal_VIII>but an expert in breaking openttd?^^
12:25<LordAzamath>and it crashed
12:25<strstrep>glx: I think I may have figured the desync bug (#1561) out. I just can't test it myself. Random() is called twice in the function parameter list, and C does not specify an order in which function arguments are evaluated.
12:25<strstrep>glx: So some platforms may evaluate the tile placement first and others might evaluate the industry type first.
12:26<+glx>strstrep: yes we know, but it fails even if we put only one Random() in the call
12:26<strstrep>glx: Oh, really?
12:26<LordAzamath>glx, you are expert...
12:26<+glx>and that's weird
12:26<HoTSteel>pv2b now I got it.. thank you
12:26<Gonozal_VIII>then call random outside and put the result in the parameter
12:27<pv2b>HoTSteel: np
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12:28<LordAzamath>the ttdpatch guys have their own IRC channel too yes?
12:28<+glx>yes
12:28<LordAzamath>I mean #tycoon is for general ttd
12:28<LordAzamath>what's their
12:29<LordAzamath>or am I wrong?
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12:36<HoTSteel>timetable is for avoiding the overcrowding?
12:37<Gonozal_VIII>no...
12:38|-|Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46c2b.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
12:38|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
12:38<Gonozal_VIII>a bjarni!
12:38<HoTSteel>can you explain, please?
12:40<LordAzamath>ok....I don't remeber anymore which train set it was that didn't allow certain wagons on certain engines
12:40<HoTSteel>US set
12:40<Gonozal_VIII>dbset does that
12:40<LordAzamath>ukrs doesnt?
12:41<Gonozal_VIII>i guess that too
12:41<strstrep>Has VC++ Express Edition 2008 been tried out yet?
12:41<LordAzamath>it says that its suitable for pax but I can attach any wagon there
12:41<LordAzamath>in ukrs
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12:42<+glx>strstrep: some have tried it yes, why ?
12:42<strstrep>I'm trying to build a Win32 OTTD client.
12:43<strstrep>And I just found the 2005 version---they hid it quite well.
12:43<strstrep>So nevermind.
12:43<+glx>trunk can be built with 2008 (use openttd_vs90.sln)
12:44<strstrep>Ok, thanks.
12:45<LordAzamath>ok...going to decode usset
12:47<LordAzamath>I just read the licence of this and it says it's under GPL, so I can decode :D
12:47<+glx>strstrep: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
12:47<+glx>LordAzamath: use grf2html
12:48<LordAzamath>ok
12:48<LordAzamath>i have it already so I can use it too :D
12:48<+glx>it's way easier to read grfs with that
12:49<Ammller>LordAzamath: you can decode every grf, but you can't modify and publish it usually
12:50<HoTSteel>does anyone know how timetable works?
12:51<Ammller>HoTSteel: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Timetable#Timetable
12:52<HoTSteel>Ammller that`s it.. thank you
12:54<Eddi|zuHause3>LordAzamath: if it's GPL, the NFO sourcecode must be available
12:54<LordAzamath>nevermind
12:54<pv2b>hmmmm. i just istalled openttd 0.6.0-beta2... and some "regular planes" are flying the same speed as super sonic ones
12:54<pv2b>in the intro screen
12:54<pv2b>also helis flying the speed of jets
12:54<+glx>pv2b: normal
12:54<Gonozal_VIII>they were all too slow before
12:55<Gonozal_VIII>a train with 300 km/h was faster than a plane with 800
12:55<Ammller>Eddi|zuHause3: show me the sources from USSet etc.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammller: it's a violation of GPL if you don't provide a way to get the source
12:56<pv2b>i wonder how fast yate haugans are.
12:56<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have to release grfs under the gpl
12:56<LordAzamath>you ca get the source with grfcodec
12:57<LordAzamath>gonozal it just is released under gpl
12:57<Ammller>Gonozal_VIII: but there are some, i.e. USSet
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>LordAzamath: but not the comments
12:57<LordAzamath>but what would you do if smb coded it with grfmaker?
12:57<Ammller>LordAzamath: sources are nfo with comments and working graf
12:57<LordAzamath>give the lst?
12:57<Ammller>gra
12:57<Ammller>phics files
12:58<Eddi|zuHause3>LordAzamath: GPL states you have to distribute the source in the prefered way of development
12:58<Ammller>and I know no GPL'd grf, which provide you with that
12:58<LordAzamath>whatever
12:58<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammller: you don't have to deliver the sources, but you have to hand them out on request
12:59<Ammller>well, ok, true...
12:59|-|Wolf01 changed nick to Wolf01|AWAY
12:59<pv2b>ooh. another zoom level. nice.
12:59<Eddi|zuHause3>and the way how to contact for this request must be stated near the GPL itself
13:00<Eddi|zuHause3>(usually the GPL is delivered in a file called "COPYING[.txt]"
13:00<Gonozal_VIII>grfcodec should keep the comments in...
13:00<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: that is a silly request
13:01<Ammller>Gonozal_VIII: you can do that with Action 0C, imo.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause3>no compiler keeps comments
13:01<Gonozal_VIII>ok...
13:01<Gonozal_VIII>well, the grf is not really compiled
13:01<Ammller>4LV is a nice example for that
13:01<LordAzamath>and how many compilers allow you to decode it and encode it etc
13:01<Eddi|zuHause3>some languages, e.g. python, let you define "docstrings", that will be kept
13:02<Eddi|zuHause3>you can also read them from the program itself
13:04<LordAzamath>grf2html isn't very ggod when you have 7000+ sprites :/
13:04<LordAzamath>:/
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>just use grfcodec with -d
13:06<LordAzamath>I have done both :D
13:06<LordAzamath>I'm now reading the nfo
13:07<LordAzamath>but there are no comments so it won't help me
13:08<+glx>that's why grf2html is good :)
13:09<Ammller>LordAzamath: maybe you could also ask the author...
13:09<Gonozal_VIII>what does the stuff that grf2html generates look like?
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13:14<LordAzamath>gonozal_viii, www.hot.ee/madisaasmae/grf2html.png
13:15<Gonozal_VIII>oooh with description of the actions, nice
13:16<LordAzamath>but try to find out something specific from those 7000 sprites....
13:16<LordAzamath>nightmare
13:20<LordAzamath>ammler, I don't need the source actually, I just need to see how to make so, that only certain types of wagons can be attached to certain engines
13:20<LordAzamath>I tried to learn it with hellp of glx, but it's still very confusing
13:21<pv2b>- Feature: Provide aircraft with vertical separation depending on their altitude and velocity (r8534)
13:21<pv2b>vertical sep dependent on *altitude*?
13:21<pieb0>Hello, I am new to openttd and reading the manual at http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Half_Cloverleaf . Why is it bad that a train must turn left to go right? And why could this lead to trains getting lost?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>pieb0: that is a non issue for new pathfinder (YAPF, NPF)
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't really know why they still write that everywhere
13:22<pieb0>Is the new pathfinder enabled by default?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
13:23<Eddi|zuHause3>even more, the old pathfinder is removed for trains
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/junction2.png
13:24<pieb0>Thank you :-) all these junctions are amazing. It will need some time to master them...
13:24<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: nice tile grfs
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>newterrain
13:24<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't like them...
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>why?
13:25<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=31079&start=78
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause3>they look too indifferentiated
13:26<Eddi|zuHause3>like they were done with only 2 colours
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>it's 8bbp...
13:27<Gonozal_VIII>there are not much more colours^^
13:27<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but you have like 10 shades of green
13:27<Eddi|zuHause3>docs/openttd_palette.gif or so
13:28<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=82057 <-- look there...
13:28<Gonozal_VIII>rivers in openttd would be nice...
13:29<Gonozal_VIII>but it would be a bit strange to see a oil tanker climb those slopes...
13:30<Eddi|zuHause3>ships should never be able to climb slopes, except in locks
13:31<Gonozal_VIII>even locks are sloped
13:31<Gonozal_VIII>they don't stop there...
13:31<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, they are kind of a hack
13:31<Eddi|zuHause3>but that is tolerable
13:33<Eddi|zuHause3>now the master question... where do i get HD space from?
13:33<Gonozal_VIII>new hd :D
13:33<Eddi|zuHause3>you mean you want to gift me one?
13:33<Gonozal_VIII>nope^^
13:34<Gonozal_VIII>i bought a external 500gb hd for 99 euro some time ago
13:34<peter__>gift is a verb now?
13:35<Gonozal_VIII>only for gifted people
13:35<Eddi|zuHause3>i bought a 400GB one last year
13:35<LordAzamath>I gift you gift he giftes, has gifted
13:35<LordAzamath>:D
13:35<Eddi|zuHause3>if you consider "is gifted" as passive, then "to gift" has to be the base form
13:36<LordAzamath>I'm gifted with many things.
13:36<LordAzamath>then yes, to gift
13:36<LordAzamath>but not gift as present
13:36<LordAzamath>but something else
13:36<LordAzamath>like bless or something
13:36<Gonozal_VIII>presents are presented^^
13:37<LordAzamath>SC presents presents at present
13:38<LordAzamath>or Santa Claus is presenting presents in present moment...or wahat ever :D
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, leo does not consider gift to be a verb... whatever
13:39<LordAzamath>hmm...a Russian plane again violated the air-border of Finland
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>let's invade them!
13:40<HoTSteel>russians?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>russia is in the axis of evil!
13:40<LordAzamath>True
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>together with austria!
13:40<@Bjarni>that depends on who you ask
13:41<LordAzamath>ok..not all russians, but mainly the politicians
13:41<LordAzamath>why austrie
13:41<LordAzamath>Austria*
13:41<Gonozal_VIII>pfffff
13:41<@Bjarni><LordAzamath> ok..not all russians, but mainly the politicians <-- or rather KGB.... which is the same thing these days
13:42<LordAzamath>former KGB
13:42<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: do you have snow outside right now?
13:42<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know
13:42<@Bjarni>geek :P
13:42<@Bjarni>try to look out of the windows once in a while
13:43<@Bjarni>like at least once a day
13:43<LordAzamath>You know at april this year, when we removed one monument from our City centre, some russian politicians thought they should invade us...
13:43<Gonozal_VIII>no.. there's webcams outside, no need to look out of the window
13:43<@Bjarni><LordAzamath> former KGB <-- KGB is still there... they are just called FSB (or something) instead but basically it's the same thing
13:43<LordAzamath>It's named FSB yes. KGB is only left in Belorus
13:44<LordAzamath>Belarus*
13:44<@Bjarni>and rural Russia where they haven't detected the fall of USSR
13:44<Gonozal_VIII>ok, webcam is not helping, pitch black outside
13:44<@Bjarni>:P
13:44<Gonozal_VIII>but there was snow some days ago and it was below zero all the time so yes... there is snow
13:45<@Bjarni>dammit
13:45<LordAzamath>Today evening it finally started snowing...It has been w/o snow since middle of November here
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>why?
13:45<@Bjarni>thieves
13:45<@Bjarni>you stole our snow >_<
13:45<Eddi|zuHause3>about invading austria: http://www.wer-weiss-was.de/theme204/article1450351.html (half-german)
13:45<LordAzamath>And I live in Tallinn...
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>you can have it, i don't want it
13:45<@Bjarni>but you have to pay for moving it back here
13:45<LordAzamath>snow is great!
13:46<@Bjarni>yeah
13:46<@Bjarni>except when there is too much of it
13:46<LordAzamath>we had black christmas (opposite of white) this year though :(
13:46<Eddi|zuHause3>he doesn't want to pay for my harddisk, why do you think he will pay for moving snow?
13:46<Gonozal_VIII>snow sucks
13:46<@Bjarni>like a few years ago... Japan experienced 4 meters of snowfall
13:46<LordAzamath>That's kinda...lot
13:46<Gonozal_VIII>what is it with you and japan?
13:46<@Bjarni>I don't know
13:47<@Bjarni>well... it's a snowfall record
13:47<LordAzamath>He likes Japanese grf, I bet :D
13:47<@Bjarni>I bet they didn't try that in Australia
13:47<Gonozal_VIII>you talk about japan almost every day^^
13:47<@Bjarni>if we were talking about rain then I would mention southern India
13:47<LordAzamath>...big in Japaaaan , big in Japaaaaaannn.....
13:48<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> you talk about japan almost every day^^ <-- no I don't
13:48<LordAzamath>only every other day
13:48<qball>he talks about trains daily
13:48<@Bjarni>true
13:48<@Bjarni>but trains are cool
13:48<Gonozal_VIII>and japan!
13:48<@Bjarni>hey
13:48<Gonozal_VIII>and japanese signs...
13:48<LordAzamath>and suddenly we've got Bjarni talking about both trains and japan
13:49<@Bjarni>where else can you find railroads driving on roads?
13:49<LordAzamath>they're called tramways btw :P
13:49<@Bjarni>I mean like driving on the same road for like half a km
13:49<LordAzamath>lol
13:49<Eddi|zuHause3>did anybody actually read the link i posted? :p
13:50<@Bjarni><LordAzamath> they're called tramways btw :P <-- no... those are trams... Japan also has railroads (not trams) driving on the roads
13:50<LordAzamath>I opened it, but I can't speak German
13:50<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: I opened it and then the channel attacked me so they didn't give me time to read it
13:50<Gonozal_VIII>attacked?^^
13:50<@Bjarni>yeah
13:51<LordAzamath>Bjarni, another feature you'd like to implement? Rails on roada
13:51<LordAzamath>roads*
13:51<LordAzamath>lol
13:51<@Bjarni>I mentioned KGB and then you started a demonstration by making up lies about me and spread them in public
13:51<peter__>bjarni wants to implement pbs
13:51<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i know the feeling when you are peacefully browsing the web, and a wild channel jumps out on an unsuspecting victim, totally mauling it
13:51|-|Kenjuudo [~ef@116.80-203-20.nextgentel.com] has quit []
13:51<@Bjarni>LordAzamath: I wouldn't mind... but it's kind of a lot of work
13:51<LordAzamath>how come?
13:51<LordAzamath>you've got trams
13:51<Gonozal_VIII>bjarni is a cia agent that wants to infiltrate kgb
13:52<LordAzamath>atleast not KAPO agent :D
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>gestapo too
13:52<LordAzamath>KAitsePOlitsei -> defence police
13:52<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, rails on roads could be implemented together with bendy bridges and subways
13:52<Eddi|zuHause3>as kind of a "zero-height" bridge
13:53<LordAzamath>and signals everywhere and pbs and and....
13:53<@Bjarni>but then how would the trains stop the road traffic?
13:53<LordAzamath>and underwater tunnels and...
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>roads in buildings
13:53<@Bjarni>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/2/2f/Hamaotsu2.jpg <-- this is classified as a train, not a tram
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>there are underwater tunnels
13:53<LordAzamath>looks like a tram to me
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>yes, looks very tramy
13:53<@Bjarni>most (more than 90%) of the tracks are real railroad tracks (not in roads)
13:54<Eddi|zuHause3>in germany, we have trams that drive as normal train outside of the city
13:54<Eddi|zuHause3>but are considered trams within city limits
13:54<LordAzamath>in finland they have thesse kind of trams http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/ModernFinnishTram.jpg
13:55<LordAzamath>and trains are like this http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib019/VR_PENDO.JPG
13:55<LordAzamath>guess, what reminds more of that Japanese one ?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause3>LordAzamath: what disqualifies the train as a tram is the high entrance steps
13:56<@Bjarni>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Keihan800-owk-otn.jpg <-- same line... still consider it a tram?
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>http://public-transport.net/bim/Austria/Linz/Linz_pic/8067_54.JPG
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13:56<Gonozal_VIII>we have those
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>you can't have train stops at pavement-level that way
13:56<@Bjarni>actually it's legally a railroad, not a tram. There is a difference
13:57<peter__>"<Bjarni> geek :P"
13:57<@Bjarni>trams drives on roads and melt into traffic. Trains has crossings so whenever a train is driving on a road all the cars has to stop at red flashing lights
13:57<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, in germany, the same train can drive under tram laws or train laws, depending on location
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13:57<+glx>we have some tram-trains here
13:58<LordAzamath>does anyone have already compiled binarys of grfmaker? for windows
13:58<LordAzamath>which (s)he could kindly send me :D
13:58<@Bjarni>forget about the (s)
13:59<LordAzamath>why?
13:59<@Bjarni>you are indicating something about the people in here that ain't true
13:59<@Bjarni>sadly
13:59<LordAzamath>I know atleast one member of forums, who is female
13:59<@Bjarni>I have yet to see a female in here with a compiler
13:59<LordAzamath>andelsgirl that is :D
13:59<LordAzamath>And I guess Andel has compiler :D
14:00<Eddi|zuHause3>not everyone that has a female sounding name is actually a girl
14:00<Eddi|zuHause3>especially on the internet ;)
14:00<LordAzamath>andelsboy then :D?
14:00<@Bjarni>ignorance is bliss
14:00<@Bjarni>let him has his fantasy
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.bahnindustrie.at/show_beitrag.php?menu_id=45&id=131 <-- found a nice page
14:00<@Bjarni>it's not like it's hurting us that it's all an illusion
14:01<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, best to join #lesbians then :p
14:01<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: yeah... that's actually a nice site
14:01<@Bjarni>haven't seen it before
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>lots of austrian trains :-)
14:01<LordAzamath>ok gotta go now
14:02<Gonozal_VIII>cu
14:02[~]LordAzamath leaves...NOW
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14:02<@Bjarni>wow
14:02<@Bjarni>a lag of a whole sec
14:02<@Bjarni>that sucks
14:03<@Bjarni>anyway... about snowfall... Donner's Pass gets more than 10 meters of snow every year
14:03<pv2b>how is the property maintenance calculated?
14:03<Gonozal_VIII>we also have years with lots of snow
14:03<@Bjarni>it beats the 4 meters... but those 4 meters were in a single day.... I don't know how the weather could fuck up that much
14:03<Gonozal_VIII>sometimes you can't see anything but snow out of the ground floor windows
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14:04<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: heh.... makes outside walking a bit tricky
14:04<@Bjarni>not to mention getting fresh air
14:04<AKiS>where can i download some languages to openttd
14:04<Gonozal_VIII>and the shoveled path from the door to the street is more like a tunnel
14:04<AKiS>?
14:04<@Bjarni>AKiS: those are included in the downloads
14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>we had >2m snow the last time in '88 i believe
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14:05<AKiS>and romanian language?
14:05<@Bjarni>yes
14:05<@Bjarni>it's included
14:05<AKiS>can u tell me where to download?
14:05<AKiS>where from?
14:06<@Bjarni>the same place where you download OpenTTD
14:06<Eddi|zuHause3>AKiS: if you have downloaded the game, you also have all language files
14:06<@Bjarni>all the downloads should contain a file called romanian.lng
14:06<AKiS>thanx
14:06<AKiS>u know some site with cool graphics?
14:06<@Bjarni>you should be able to switch to Romanian if it fails to do it by itself
14:06<Eddi|zuHause3>it should also automatically select the language, if you have proper locale settings
14:07<@Bjarni>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
14:07<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: that feature is OS dependent
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd be surprised if it wasn't ;)
14:08<@Bjarni>hehe
14:08<@Bjarni>I mean the feature is not working on all platforms
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>i don't like that, always sets my game to german
14:08<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: only if you lack openttd.cfg
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>it has properly set the game to german on both windows and linux
14:09<Gonozal_VIII>or if openttd.cfg lacks the newline as first character
14:09<AKiS>how can i use more graphics without giving me that error?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause3>but my config should be from 0.4.0
14:09<@Bjarni>what error?
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>i actually managed to get openttd for the first time between 0.4.0 and 0.4.0.1
14:10<AKiS>when tells me that i have exceded 16 or something
14:10<Gonozal_VIII>?
14:11<Gonozal_VIII>write what the error is exactly, not or something
14:11<Eddi|zuHause3>AKiS: if it is telling about sprite limit, that should be fixed in 0.6.0-beta2
14:12<Eddi|zuHause3>but really, you should copy the __complete__ error message (in english)
14:12<AKiS>yes thats right
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14:14<Gonozal_VIII>not titanic again...
14:15<Eddi|zuHause3>you could watch "Der Nussknacker" on 3sat instead ;)
14:15<Gonozal_VIII>i'll watch "der flug des phoenix" :-)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause3>i watched that in the cinema...
14:16<Gonozal_VIII>20:15 Der Flug des Phoenix bis 22:25 rtl
14:16<Eddi|zuHause3>with the actress that played "Eowyn"
14:16<Gonozal_VIII> 20:15 Der Flug des Phoenix bis 21:55 orf 1
14:17<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, 30 minutes of commercials ;)
14:17<Eddi|zuHause3>but you need a decoder to get orf
14:17<Gonozal_VIII>i don't
14:17<AKiS>there are some tools for ottd?
14:18<Gonozal_VIII>tools?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause3>over satellite, they have to restrict it to people who actually pay fees in austria
14:18<Eddi|zuHause3>for terrestric, they don't need to, as it is restricted by sender range
14:18<AKiS>for music let's say
14:19<Gonozal_VIII>why would you need a tool for music inside the game? there are enough music players
14:20<AKiS>so u sugest that i listen winamp while playing ottd?
14:20<Gonozal_VIII>yes why not?
14:20<AKiS>cool
14:20<AKiS>do you know another game just like ttd?
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but if we told you, we would have to kill you
14:21<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
14:22<AKiS>WHY???
14:22<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know other games that are as good as (open)ttd
14:22<AKiS>yes...but
14:23<AKiS>oh, and why i don't have any trams in the game
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>trams are not available in 0.5.x
14:23<AKiS>i have 0.6 beta 2
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>then you need to load a tram grf also
14:24<Gonozal_VIII>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=list&cid=105
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>note: trams are a type of roadvehicles, so they are not shown in the rail dropdown, but in the road dropdown
14:26<AKiS>soo ... ok kill me... any game?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>depends on your definition of "just like"
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>there's the "ChrisIN" build of openttd, with "extended features"
14:28<Gonozal_VIII>isn't the chrisin still broken?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause3>then there are tales and rumors of a "TTDPatch", which is said to be more ancient than openttd
14:29<Eddi|zuHause3>then there is "Locomotion", which is from the creator of TT
14:30<AKiS>any site for locomotion?
14:30<Eddi|zuHause3>also, there is "Roller Coaster Tycoon", which is kind of a successor to TTD, but with a different playing concept
14:31<Gonozal_VIII>http://tt-forums.net/index.php <-- just look there, there's everything you need
14:31<Eddi|zuHause3>then there are various transportation simulations like "Transport Giant" or "Trucks and Trains Tycoon" (also called TTT or Transport Tycoon 3D)
14:32<Eddi|zuHause3>which might or might not be worth the trouble
14:34<AKiS>transport tycoon 3d????? it's real???
14:35<Gonozal_VIII>no, simulated
14:35<AKiS>it's for download?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's kind of an unfinished product, it's not really good...
14:35<Gonozal_VIII>i gave you a link, everything else is there :P
14:35<Gonozal_VIII>^^
14:36<AKiS>ok givme
14:36<Gonozal_VIII>gave as in past
14:36<Gonozal_VIII>;-)
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>[20:31:23] Gonozal_VIII: http://tt-forums.net/index.php <-- just look there, there's everything you need
14:37<AKiS>whatever
14:37<Eddi|zuHause3>scroll to the bottom, there is a section like "any other transportation game"
14:38<Eddi|zuHause3>is simutrans actually being still developed?
14:38<AKiS>i can't find it
14:39<AKiS>the only "interesting" one is Transport Unlimited
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>i don't now... that's kind of memory hungry iirc
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>(simutrans)
14:39<AKiS>?
14:40<AKiS>so do you have it?
14:40<AKiS>or you have the link to download?
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>and why is transport unlimited the only interesting one?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause3>www.gidf.de
14:41<AKiS>cuz i didn's saw the 3DTT
14:41<Eddi|zuHause3>most of the games are not for free
14:42<pieb0>hello, what does the "cargo accepted" in the land area information window mean?
14:42<Gonozal_VIII>what's your guess?
14:42<AKiS>what's with www.gidf.de ?
14:43<pieb0>well, I read the manual, but it's still not very clear...
14:43<Eddi|zuHause3>pieb0: means "if the station has this tile in its acceptance radius, you accept this cargo"
14:43<pieb0>how big is the acceptance radius of a station?
14:43<Gonozal_VIII>you can turn that on while building the station
14:43<Eddi|zuHause3>pieb0: you can turn on the radius when building a station
14:45<Eddi|zuHause3>pieb0: some tiles have a ratio, like "2/8 Goods", which means, all such tiles in your radius get added together, and you accept goods if you get at least 8/8 in total
14:45<pieb0>ahh, ok they sum up
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>AKiS: it says something like: "someone is annoyed because you ask him questions you could find out on your own"
14:48<AKiS>ok,ok
14:48<Eddi|zuHause3>AKiS: english version: http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/
14:48<AKiS>there is no damn download,just a presentation
14:49<Eddi|zuHause3>the german version of TTT was included in one of the Gold Games collection
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15:11<pieb0>why does the landscape continually change shape? earthquake, erosion???
15:11<peter__>AI
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>usually the AI trying to build a station in the town
15:12<pieb0>Ahhh, ok
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>but the AI is bad...
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>hehehe
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15:12<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played with AI for 10 years now
15:13<Gonozal_VIII>me neither
15:14<Gonozal_VIII>but i think that will improve a lot when noai is in trunk and different ais are available
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>"when", do you have any kind of reason to support that optimism?
15:15<pieb0>Is it possible to disable AI when playing alone?
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>set number of opponents to 0 (custom difficulty)
15:15<Gonozal_VIII>just set the number of opponents to 0
15:15<Gonozal_VIII>^^
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15:26<AKiS>does anybody know how to change the menu?
15:26<Gonozal_VIII>change the menu?
15:26<AKiS>image?
15:27<AKiS>animation
15:27<Gonozal_VIII>ah
15:27<Gonozal_VIII>that's a savegame
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>the background game is a savegame renamed to opntitle.dat
15:27<Gonozal_VIII>renamed to opentitle.dat
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can replace it with any of your savegames
15:27<AKiS>what kind of savegame?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>it will open on the place you saved it
15:27<Gonozal_VIII>normal kind
15:27<AKiS>ooo
15:28<AKiS>and the tutorials are really f***ed
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>we have tutorials?
15:28<AKiS>demonstrations
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>we have demonstrations?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>are you sure you are talking about openttd?
15:29<AKiS>no
15:29<AKiS>sorry it was ttd
15:29<AKiS>what are heightmaps?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>images, where each pixel represents a height
15:30<Gonozal_VIII>a map with shades of grey that represent height and can be used to have real world terrain in the game
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>good if you want to scan real maps into a game map
15:30<AKiS>and how can i do that?
15:30<Gonozal_VIII>look in the forum
15:30<Gonozal_VIII>there's a sticky topic
15:31<Gonozal_VIII>how to generate superb heightmaps (or something like that)
15:34<AKiS>where can i download some cool savegames?
15:34<Gonozal_VIII>look in the forum
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>there's even a title page competition going on
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'd have said from openttdcoop.ppcis.org
15:37<Gonozal_VIII>i think he wants it for a title page... and i don't think the coop games are ideal for that
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>yeah :p
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause>but for a beginner it can be quite insane to look at them :p
15:39|-|Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-158-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg]
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you unleash them on an unsuspecting newbie with a <500MHz PC ;)
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15:45<Vikthor>.com/kingdomb1.htm
15:45<Vikthor>whoops sorry
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15:46<Ciobby>hello
15:46<Ciobby>i have a question
15:47<Ciobby>how can i make really big cities?
15:47<hylje>yes you can
15:47<Gonozal_VIII>he didn't ask for a boolean answer
15:47<Ciobby>but how?
15:47<Ciobby>like 80000 people?
15:47<Ciobby>or more
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>open the scenario editor, and click on "expand" several (hundred) times
15:47<Gonozal_VIII>scenario editor, click expand until it's big...
15:48<Ciobby>yeah but on a random scenario?
15:48<Gonozal_VIII>depends on game version
15:49<Ciobby>0.6 beta2
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>some random towns are bigger from the start, and have higher growth rates
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>cities tend to grow really fast if you have more than 5 stations in them
15:49<Ciobby>but how can i improve them>
15:49<Ciobby>?
15:49<Gonozal_VIII>nightlies and beta have initial city size multiplir and growth speed settings in the economy tab in configure patches
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>like a bus or tram service
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16:00|-|Wolf01|AWAY changed nick to Wolf01
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder how many nicknames he will come up with
16:03<pv2b>the UFO bomber is pretty slow now, compared to the new aircraft speeds in 0.6.0
16:03<pv2b>you'd expect it to... ehhh.... be fast *<:-)
16:04<Gonozal_VIII>you wouldn't see it much then...
16:05<pv2b>still, it's cfruising around at like 250 kph or something... i response to a fucking UFO landing.
16:05<pv2b>makes no sense
16:06<Gonozal_VIII>but it makes sense to throw bombs on alien visitors?^^
16:06<pv2b>they're obviously hostile
16:06<pv2b>otherwise they wouldn't bomb them
16:06<hylje>DUH
16:07<Gonozal_VIII>^^ nice circular logic there
16:07<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: my favorite kind *<:-)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>and the iraq has WMD, otherwise they wouldn't invade them
16:07<pv2b>i really like timetables in ottd 0.6.0
16:07<pv2b>it's very nice to finally be able to operate aircraft long distance low capacity in a sensible way
16:08<pv2b>not to mention passenger trains
16:08<pv2b>though the interface could be a bit unfriendly, and there could be auto-seperation.
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16:08<Gonozal_VIII>aircraft purchase and running cost still need to be changed... they're missing at least one 0 at the end
16:09<pavel1269>one? two!
16:09<Prof_Frink>two? seven!
16:09<pavel1269>btw, hi, i am back again :)
16:09<Gonozal_VIII>hi^^
16:09<pv2b>one extra zero would work
16:09<pv2b>or maybe x20
16:09<pavel1269>i vote for 100x - 500x :)
16:10<pv2b>that'd make it possible to turn a profit on good lines, but it'd cut it in 1/3 or smth
16:10<Gonozal_VIII>for standard aircraft pavel... newgrfs are better, 10x could be enough there
16:10<pv2b>but really, i don't think the operating cost needs to be changed ... rather... the ticket prices need to go down for aircraft
16:11<pavel1269>once game i bought some airplane for 500K ... it loaded and on next station (first it's land) it made 3M ... :/
16:11<pv2b>in fact, all ticket prices should be based on the *logarithm* of the distance, not the distance
16:11<pavel1269>till then i dont use airplanes soo much
16:12<Prof_Frink>pv2b: Never mind that, bulk goods should be distance-independant
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16:12<Gonozal_VIII>based on distance is ok but everything should have fixed destinations
16:12<pv2b>Prof_Frink: not independant... it really costs more to move something 2000 km than 20 km
16:12<pv2b>fixed destinations, like in simutrans.
16:12<Prof_Frink>pv2b: But is it more valuable?
16:13<pv2b>Prof_Frink: not neccessarilly. we just deliver them, though *<:-)
16:13<pv2b>the value isn't in the cargo
16:13<Gonozal_VIII>the money you get is not what they pay for the cargo, it's only for transportation
16:13<pv2b>exactly
16:13<Prof_Frink>True.
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16:14<pv2b>by the way, sending mail from china etc internationally is really cheap *<;-)
16:15<Gonozal_VIII>but some kind of buy-sell system could be nice too... coal mine sells you coal for x per tonne and different powerplants pay different prizes for that based on their supply
16:15<Sacro>pv2b: not if you're in England
16:15<Prof_Frink>Sacro: Then you wouldn't be sending mail *from* china
16:16<Sacro>Prof_Frink: could do via
16:16<pv2b>anyway, this is apparently because of how the IPU agreements work
16:16<pv2b>(international postal union)
16:17<pv2b>basically, for international mail, you don't pay for what you send out, but you agree to deliever all international mail sent to you
16:17<pv2b>this works out pretty well for countries, like taiwan, which send a lot of mail, but receive very little *<;-)
16:17<Gonozal_VIII>with that buy sell system it wouldn't matter for the payment how long it takes you to transport the cargo but it's your capital that's lying around useless in that time
16:18<pv2b>net result? taiwanese web sites can offer crap for a few dollars each with free shipping
16:18<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: that works for nonperishable goods.
16:18<ln->examples of such sites?
16:18[~]ln- wants to buy crap
16:19<pv2b>ln-: http://www.dealextreme.com/ (i have not done business with them myself, but a friend has, and has been relatively satisfied)
16:20<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.wlw.at/sse/MainServlet?anzeige=kurzliste&land=AT&sprache=de&klobjid=60852&suchbegriff=duengemittel
16:20<Gonozal_VIII>you should find crap there
16:20<pv2b>austria is not in taiwan yet.
16:20<ln->thanks
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>he didn't say that he wants to buy taiwanese crap
16:21<pv2b>plenty of counterfeit electronics there *<:-)
16:22<pv2b>anyway, one more thing about shipping stuffl ong distances in the real world
16:23<pv2b>i live a few kilometerrs away from a coal power plant, one of the cleanest ones in the world apparently
16:23<pv2b>at least in terms of local air quality
16:23<pv2b>apparently they have special low-sulfur coal shipped in from australia among other things
16:24<ln->counterfeit electronics is so... i wouldn't buy
16:25<pv2b>i dunno. sometimes the counterfeits can be better than the originals *<;-)
16:25<pv2b>though for most counterfeits, they most certaiinly have not much going for them, except that they're cheaper
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16:26<ln->cheap crap is ok, but it doesn't have to be counterfeit
16:28<ln->wtf is this, it cannot work as most people would expect: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10281
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16:30<pv2b>ln-: it could, if the conversion electronics are inside the contact
16:31<pv2b>a friend of mine actually made a vga/composite converter and put all the electronics inside the db15 contact
16:31<pv2b>the circuit is actually pretty simple...
16:31<qball>it is
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16:33<pv2b>actually, i misremembered
16:33<pv2b>http://www.e.kth.se/~pontusf/
16:33<pv2b>it's actually a vga/scart connector that uses RGB
16:34<ln->yeah, that one is a lot simpler..
16:35<pv2b>that's clearly not scart -- it's composite. but if you can homebrew electronics to convert an RGB signal
16:35<pv2b>i don't think using a custom IC to convert RGB->s-video in that small foramt
16:35<pv2b>s-video->composite is really easy, i don't think you even need any electronics for that...
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16:41<Wolf01>'night
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16:44<pv2b>ln-: seriously, how hard could generating a colour signal from RGB be?
16:44<pv2b>hmm
16:46<pv2b>luminance signal is just a weighted sum of the R, G and B components
16:46<ln->pv2b: harder than $2
16:46<pv2b>and chrominance is just a difference signal between the luminance signal and the R and G signals... i think it should be pretty easy
16:46<pv2b>the hardest part should therefore be generating the luminance signal
16:47<ln->and that'll work with any resolution, too?
16:47<ln->the simple device that does all this
16:48<pv2b>does it say it'll work with any resolution?
16:49<ln->as far as i can tell, it doesn't say anything about anything.
16:49<pv2b>sure, i bet they cut a lot of corners, but i don't doubt it's possible to make a $3 vga->s-video converter
16:49<pv2b>it'll prolly suck, but i bet it's possible
16:51<pv2b>not sure, i think you can do rgb->luminance with just one opamp and a few resistors come to think of it.
16:53<pv2b>not one opamp, i mean one quad op-amp ic
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16:57<LordAzamath>HEI
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17:04<pv2b>ln-: http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Circuits/Adder/Adder.html <-- this looks like it could be done for under $3 *<:-)
17:08<ln->sure
17:10<ln->http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1929 <-- i wonder what's between 76MHz and 88MHz over here..
17:11<pv2b>the russians used to use lower frequency FM broadcast bands, i think the japanese still do
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>brain control waves
17:11<ln->at least we were using military radios that operated at above 80MHz
17:11<pv2b>"In most of the world, the FM broadcast band, used for broadcasting FM radio stations, goes from 87.5 to 108.0 MHz. In Japan the FM broadcast band is 76–90 MHz, unlike any other country in the world. The old OIRT band in Eastern Europe was 65.8–74 MHz."
17:11<Tefad>ln-: TV signals.
17:12<Tefad>channel 5 is below 88MHz and 6 is above 108MHz
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>brain control waves!
17:12<Tefad>though i could be slightly wrong
17:12<ln->Tefad: VHF?
17:12<Tefad>ln-: somewhere around there
17:12<pv2b>Tefad: they don't have to be allocated over there
17:12<Tefad>i'm saying in the US.
17:12<pv2b>over here, we have some police band frequencies around 70-80 MHz
17:12<pv2b>mostly outside of metropolican areas
17:13<pv2b>inside metropolitan areas they're up at 400-ish
17:13<pv2b>(sweden)
17:13<Tefad>27/49 MHz are used for low power remote control devices ; )
17:13<pv2b>27 MHz is also for CB radios
17:14<pv2b>low power remotge control and such stuff is typically at 443 MHz over here
17:14<pv2b>no
17:14<pv2b>433 MHz
17:15<Tefad>i think radios are more efficient at lower frequencies (power input vs range) but require more bandwidth to transmit the same data, iirc
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17:15<Tefad>i could be wrong
17:15<pv2b>Tefad: more bandwidth in terms of percecnt of the frequency yes
17:16<pieb0>sorry, s it possible to rotate the map, or temporarly hide trees and buldings?
17:16<pv2b>there is more bandwidth in a single analogue tv channel than in the entire shortwave radio band
17:16<Tefad>this is why the higher frequency FM stations have more fidelity eh?
17:16<pv2b>well... ok... slight exaggeration... maybe two analogue tv channels
17:16<Tefad>pieb0: yes hide. use "x" iirc
17:16<Tefad>there's also the menu stuff
17:16<pv2b>Tefad: higher frequency doesn't automatically mean higher fidelity for FM band--- they're all prety much the same bandwidth
17:17<pv2b>depends on the country though
17:18<pv2b>italy for example can put stations on every 50 kHz step -- they use narrower channels
17:18<pv2b>prolly means crappier fidelity
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17:20<pv2b>higher frequencies usually mean more bandwidth and shorter range
17:20<Tefad>ah, 2-6 TV is 54-88MHz, 7-13 is 174-216
17:20<pv2b>very simplified
17:20<pv2b>then you have UHF
17:20<pv2b>(weird al yankovic *<;-)
17:20<Tefad>well shorter range for a given power
17:25<pv2b>assuming line of sight, yes
17:25<pv2b>the frequency also determines if a signal will pass through or be reflected by a material
17:25<Tefad>yup.
17:25<pv2b>oh, and higher frequencies mean you can make smaller antenna
17:25<Tefad>atmosphere is goofy.
17:26<pv2b>not just atmosphere -- terrain
17:26<Tefad>AM freaks out at night ; )
17:26<pv2b>i find i can hit repeaters on the 70 cm band easier than on the 2 m band if i'm in the city
17:26<pv2b>though longer distances the lower attenuation of 2 m works better
17:27<pv2b>yeah, at night, the D layer in the ionosphere which normally absorbs frequencies, nnot allowing them to skip on the ionosphere fades away
17:27<pv2b>it's generated by sunlight with some weird reaction
17:30<Gonozal_VIII>short question...
17:30<Gonozal_VIII>WTF
17:30<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: please make question longer.
17:30<Gonozal_VIII>you're a little bit offtopic there ;-)
17:31<Tefad>obviously
17:31<Tefad>at least we're not on the youchoob
17:31<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: offtopic is the new ontopic
17:31<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
17:32<Gonozal_VIII>and you obviously forgot about the brain control waves
17:36<Gonozal_VIII>what exactly qualifies a film to be a free-tv-premiere?
17:36<Gonozal_VIII>if it hasn't been shown for at least a year on the same station?
17:54<Gonozal_VIII>ping
17:54<Tefad>[P][O][N][G]
17:55<Gonozal_VIII>that was a heavy pong
17:55<Tefad>i try.
17:56<Gonozal_VIII>i killed the conversation
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>:-(
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18:00<pieb0>hello, how do subsidies work? I had a subsidy on offer for taking passengers between two towns, that expired, even if connected the towns using two bus stations on time... should I do something to accept the subsidy?
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>it is activated when the first passengers/cargo reaches the destination
18:00<Rubidium>build stations in both towns within 8 (or 9?) tiles from the center of the town, i.e. the town sign
18:01<pavel1269>:)
18:03<pieb0>mmmh, prittu strange, I have the bus stations right under the town signs.
18:03<pieb0>Does it make a difference in what town the bus stops first?
18:03<SmatZ>pieb0: subsidies will expire after some time
18:04<pieb0>I was in time
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>they will also expire after they were activated
18:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11704 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: remove another bunch of useless includes.
18:04<pieb0>ahh, maybe that's it
18:05<Gonozal_VIII>nothing good lasts forever ;-)
18:13<pv2b>i'd like to mess with a simple little server browser thing to perform searches for potentially interesting games, and would like one of two things -- some documentation of how to talk to master servers and to the game server itself to get details, or some kind of read-only access to the server.php
18:13|-||Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@e28236.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:13<pv2b>err... not the servers.php... the database underlying servers.openttd.org
18:13<kyevan>pv2b: The Ultimate Documentation is available, you know
18:14<kyevan>The only documentation 100% correct and up to date with the source... is the source.
18:14<Rubidium>not to mention that the server concerning the network stuff pv2b wants is a little overdocumented'
18:15<pv2b>which is another reason why getting some kind of read only access to the servers.php database is a good thing. it means i don't have to work to keep my program updated to the latest openttd protocol whenever i upgrade *<:-)
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18:16<pv2b>Rubidium: overdocumented as in well-commented, or overdocumented as in... there's doc in some place i haven't thought to look?
18:16<Rubidium>the exact layout of the most used packet for game information is specified in great detail
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18:22<pieb0>hello, how should I set up the orders for a bus that stops in different towns? Should I unload the passengers in each town? Should I order it to stop in each town also on the way back?
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18:23<Gonozal_VIII>with the unload order the bus will leave the station empty
18:23<pv2b>making a bus that stops in multiple towns doesnt work very well
18:23<pv2b>making *anything* that stops in multiple towns actually doesn't work very well
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18:24<pieb0>what does this mean? If I have a street that connects three towns I have to buy three busses?
18:24<pv2b>that's because there are only two options really -- unload, which means you drop all your passengers off at the stop, and pick up any passengers that were waiting that you can fit, and transfer, which means you pick up new passengers without dropping the old ones
18:25<Hendikins>Whuff. New Years Eve is going to be a disaster.
18:25<pv2b>passengers don't really have a concept of where they want to go, they're happy to hop off wherever you take them
18:25<pv2b>which will be the first opportunity you let them hop off
18:26<pieb0>?confused!
18:27<pv2b>pieb0: if you make a route that goes A-B-C-B, passengers from A will get off directly at B
18:27<pv2b>no passengers from A will go to C
18:28<pieb0>the route is A-B-C-D with one bus travelling back and forth. How should I set the orders? Full load in A, stop in B and C, unload in D?
18:28<Gonozal_VIII>full load everywhere
18:28<Gonozal_VIII>is a possibility...
18:29<pv2b>sure, but that'll drop off passengers from A to B
18:29<pv2b>so any passengers going to C will be from B
18:29<pv2b>so it's kinda pointless
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>you could also use transfer and take cargo together as "transfer and take cargo"
18:29<pv2b>sure, but then no passengers will get off at point B
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>transfer and load...
18:30<pv2b>transfer and load if you start with full load will do nothing at point B
18:30<Gonozal_VIII>yes that would only work without full load at a
18:30<pv2b>it's quite simple really, on a mutli-stop route, you either dump all the cargo that's accepted, or you dump none.
18:30<pv2b>(or you use unload which dumps everything even that which isn't accepted)
18:31<pieb0>Is there a way to monitor how passengers step on and off the bus?
18:31<pv2b>the only way is to look at the passenger count
18:31<pv2b>i mean, i can see one scennario where a multi stop line would be useful
18:31<pv2b>an airport feeder
18:32<pv2b>or something like that
18:32<pv2b>even then i'd probably to A-airport-B-airport
18:32<pv2b>then discover in a few years that the capacity sucks and add dedicated buses for all lines
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>my suggestion would be that: 1. a without additional orders 2. b transfer and take cargo 3. c transfer and take cargo 4. d without any other orders 5. c transfer and take cargo 6. b transfer and take cargo
18:33<pv2b>that'd kinda work, except nobody could ever get off at B and C
18:34<pv2b>so if you're aiming for growth, it wouldn't be symmetrical at all
18:34<pieb0>how would that work with trains? Would it be the same?
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think towns care about where you drop the passengers
18:34<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: i think they care *if* you bring any passengers there
18:35<pv2b>in essence you'd be only taking passengers from that town
18:35<pv2b>also, it'd ruin your profits, openttd doesn't support in buses that some passengers are from station B and some from station C for ex.
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>right... but without passenger destinations that or full load everywhere is the best you can do
18:35<pv2b>so all passengers would appear to be from the stop closest to your ultimate destination
18:36<pv2b>so you get less profit from your line
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>or no orders at all...
18:36<pv2b>heh. yeah. just let the buses roam around mindlesssly *<:D
18:36<pv2b>that'll work
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>if it's about profit then point to point is the only way to go
18:36<pv2b>yeah. unfortunately
18:36<pieb0>This meens three buses
18:36<pv2b>simutrans has a nice feature called destinations.
18:36<pv2b>so any carggo has a specific destination it wants to go to, just as in "real life"
18:37<pv2b>so you can have a multi-stop train route for example
18:37<pv2b>now, simutrans sucks in other ways, but destinations is nice *<:-)
18:37<Gonozal_VIII>passenger destination patches for openttd are there
18:37<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: haven't heard of them. nice.
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>still lots of problems
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>there are probably reasons why they are not in trunk...
18:38<pv2b>i bet, or it'd be in the trunk
18:38<pv2b>Eddi|zuHause2: ^5.
18:39<pv2b>pieb0: if you're happy to transport passengers between A-B and C-B, you can use just one bus.
18:39<pieb0>yes, I see
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18:42<Gonozal_VIII>i guess you'll need lots of busses anyways
18:43<pieb0>They are expensive!!! 10K for a bus is a lot!
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>10k what?
18:43<pieb0>euros
18:43<pieb0>dollars
18:44<pv2b>lol. a car costs less than that *<:-)
18:44<pv2b>err
18:44<pv2b>more
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>well... try to buy a bus in rl for 10k euro ;-)
18:44<pieb0>I think the trains cost less
18:44[~]pavel1269 is gonna try
18:44<pavel1269>eh ... i dont have 10K euro :/
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>czech black market doesn't count :P
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18:45<pavel1269>:D
18:45<pavel1269>gn all
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18:46<Gonozal_VIII>you could make 10k euro fast with smuggling cigarettes over the border ;-)
18:46<Gonozal_VIII>and he is gone
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19:00<pv2b>why do people smuggle cigarattes? is there really such a big price diff between countries?
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>yes, two to three times more expensive here
19:01<pv2b>is it really smuggling though? the EU. free trade etc. as long as you don't bring more than for "personal use"... *<:-)
19:02<pv2b>the bringing it over the part prolly isn't too hard
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>there is no "free trade"
19:02<pv2b>the selling it though.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>there is only "free travel"
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>there are precise rules how much you can bring over the border
19:02<Gonozal_VIII>most of the time the smugglers don't sell it do just anybody
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>without paying customs fee
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>like czech people that work here and bring in cigarettes for their colleges
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>co-workers...
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>stuff
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>^^
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>they don't run around in the streets with cigarettes under their coat or something...
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>there are no border controls so it's easy for them to fill the trunk with cigarettes and make some easy money
19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the customs do stop people and make sporadic controls near the border
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. near the dutch border, where they stop cars of the "target group" who is likely to smuggle drugs
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>they can even collect import taxes on the fuel you got behind the border
19:09<Gonozal_VIII>it's not that easy to find a target group for cigarettes, they are normal workers most of the time
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>thousands of workers drive in every day
19:10<pv2b>i've driven through europe a few times (belgium-holland-germany-denmark-sweden)
19:10<pv2b>i don't think i've ever been stopped
19:12<pv2b>at lest two interesting border crossings there
19:12<pv2b>denmark-sweden -- alcohol smuggling possible, and holland-germany
19:13<+glx>spain-france is a nice one too
19:14<pv2b>why?
19:14<Gonozal_VIII>everything is very expensive in france
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>i guess the differences will eventually fade away but not in the near future
19:17<+glx>if the difference is reduced it won't be in the right way
19:18<Gonozal_VIII>maybe the former poor countries will be richer then because lots of companies moved there...
19:26<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: you have a knack for killing conversations
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>:-(
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19:54<strstrep>Is there a way to force a client to connect to a server with a version mismatch?
19:54<Gonozal_VIII>bad idea?
19:54<strstrep>I'm testing something
19:54<Gonozal_VIII>compile it with forced version...
19:54<Gonozal_VIII>but bad idea
19:55<strstrep>The actual code in the versions is the same.
19:55<@Belugas>really bad idea...
19:55<strstrep>I have to do some voodoo for the cross-compile to work correctly.
19:56<@Belugas>if same code, why the givl are you doing it???
19:56<@Belugas>anyway, i'm not here...
19:56<strstrep>Essentially I want my r11704 client to connect to my r11704M server.
19:56<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
19:57<Gonozal_VIII>if it's the same code, then it's not m
19:57<strstrep>I changed some <> to "" in includes
19:57<+glx>then you can try to force server rev, but bad things may happen (mainly desyncs)
19:57<+glx>why did you do that?
19:58<strstrep>zlib isn't cross-compiled for ARM in my distribution
19:58<+glx><> is used for system includes, "" for custom includes
19:59<SpComb>src/rev.cpp
19:59<strstrep>Thanks
20:00<+glx>src/rev.cpp.in indeed
20:00<+glx>or ./configure --revision=rxxxx
20:00<SpComb>vim -p src/rev.*
20:00<strstrep>Actually, I should be able to change that back if I add -I. (more hackery)
20:01<strstrep>glx: I'm trying to reproduce that industry prospecting bug by hosting the server on an ARM machine I have.
20:01<+glx>you can also use LDFLAGS=... ./configure
20:01<strstrep>glx: Then try to poke around and see if I can fix the bug (maybe)
20:02<+glx>hmm CFLAGS is better for -I stuff :)
20:02<strstrep>glx: Yes it is ;-)
20:07<strstrep>I probably should create a full cross-compile environment for this, but I was just trying to do a quick-and-dirty job.
20:07<strstrep>Has anyone tried running OpenTTD on arm-linux?
20:07<strstrep>At least the dedicated server?
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>i've never even heard of arm linux
20:09<strstrep>ARM is the hardware platform, Linux is the OS.
20:09<strstrep>ARM is found in a lot of embedded devices.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause2>"25 (c) B User-defined bit mask to set when checking veh. var. 42" why is there no link to what variable 42 does?
20:11<roboboy>gmorning
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>morning, right, it's 2AM
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>nobody knows what 42 does
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>"42 D Cargo types transported by consist"
20:14<+glx>uu the result of ORing the bits of prop. 25 from all vehicles in the train
20:14<Eddi|zuHause2>i basically need a name for the variables ;)
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>cargoTypes?^^
20:17<Eddi|zuHause2>do i read this correctly as in "Property 25 defines which cargo types are allowed to be attached"?
20:17<+glx>no
20:17<Eddi|zuHause2>then what does this mean?
20:18<+glx>say you have a consist ABC, prop 25 is used in a|b|c
20:19<strstrep>Yay, I can reproduce the desync
20:19<+glx>and this value is the high byte of callback 42 result
20:20<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't understand...
20:22<+glx>well if A prop 25 is 0x01, B prop 25 is 0x04, C prop 25 is 0x10, and you have A-B-C consist, cb 42 result is 0x15xxxxxx
20:24<+glx>and it's up to the grf coder to know what it means :)
20:24<strstrep>glx: I think I fixed #1561 - desync when building primary industry.
20:24<strstrep>glx: I can reliably get a desync without the patch, and with the patch, I can reliably not desync.
20:25<+glx>you extracted the random calls
20:25<strstrep>glx: Yup
20:25<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i think i understand now, but that does not give me a sensible name ;)
20:25<+glx>var42 bits
20:26<+glx>strstrep: and does it desync if you extract only one call?
20:26<strstrep>I haven't tried that.
20:26<strstrep>It shouldn't desync.
20:27<strstrep>I can test it.
20:27<+glx>we tried and it desynced
20:28<Gonozal_VIII>rule: don't do random calls inside function calls :-)
20:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i said that previously ;)
20:29<SmatZ>rule #34
20:29<+glx>yes we need to check all random calls :)
20:29<SmatZ>one call to Random() in function parameter shouldn't change anything
20:29<SmatZ>why do you think so?
20:29<SmatZ>I may be wrong of course :)
20:31<strstrep>It's because C does not define an order in which to evaluate arguments to a function call. Either Random() call could be resolved first. By taking it out of the function call, the order is forced.
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20:31<SmatZ>strstrep: when there is just one Random() as glx described?
20:31<SmatZ>in the function parameter
20:31<SmatZ>when one of them is removed
20:31<strstrep>Any function call that changes state and depends on that state in C is a bug.
20:31<strstrep>I'm recompiling.
20:32<+glx>http://glx.dnsalias.net:8080/openttd/desync_try.diff <-- this one desynced too
20:32<strstrep>tile should be a new variable local to that bracket
20:32<strstrep>Right?
20:33<SmatZ>strstrep: except ugliness of code, no
20:33<SmatZ>and future possible problems
20:33<strstrep>Or is tile not needed to be preserved across that line?
20:33<+glx>tile is not used for prospection so it's ok to reuse it
20:34<SmatZ>strstrep: it wouldn't cause desync anyway
20:34<SmatZ>even if it was buggy
20:34<strstrep>It *shouldn't*.
20:34<+glx>or the compiler does tricky stuff again :)
20:35<SmatZ>that would be definitelly compiler bug
20:35<strstrep>Marked as volatile maybe?
20:36<+glx>like the nice grf stack bug we had because MSVC overoptimised calls
20:36<SmatZ>there are no computed pointers nor threads
20:36<Eddi|zuHause3>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/TTDTrains.py <-- comments/errors/suggestions?
20:36<SmatZ>glx: that wasn't compiler bug
20:36<+glx>yes it was our code indeed but still
20:36<Gonozal_VIII>no idea what .py is
20:36<strstrep>python
20:37<SmatZ>glx: this is the same case - probably :)
20:37<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a text file
20:37<Eddi|zuHause3>open in $editor
20:37<strstrep>No desync in my case for a patch very similar to yours.
20:37<strstrep>Only changes would be variable name changes to location,
20:37|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B7712B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:37<strstrep>And it's locally declared in the for loop as a TileIndex
20:38<SmatZ>I agree that 'tile' shouldn't be used because it is not nice from code readability and possible future problems
20:38<SmatZ>and a little comment would be useful too
20:38<SmatZ>like "do not try to combine these two Random() into the function call, it has undefined behaviour" or so
20:39<SmatZ>if this is really the problem
20:39<SmatZ>and the moving of the Random() somewhere else just doesn't hide original problem
20:39<strstrep>It really is *A* problem. My testing shows it to be the problem, but glx's testing suggests otherwise.
20:39<SmatZ>because compiler won't do optimisation at that place that is actually wrong too
20:40<SmatZ>strstrep: I agree this has to be fixed - no matter if it fixes FS#1561
20:42<strstrep>Well, it fixes 1561 for me, but I can't say for certain that it is the only fix needed... I haven't tried all platforms.
20:42<+glx>Eddi|zuHause3: doesn't look bad
20:42<Gonozal_VIII>eddi, so you replace the hex stuff with names?
20:42<Eddi|zuHause3>that's the general idea of a higher level language, yes ;)
20:44|-|Diabolic-Angel [~dia@xdsl-84-44-202-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>not really a different language then, only aliases...
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>i like it :-)
20:44<Eddi|zuHause3>it's only part of the work ;)
20:45<+glx>strstrep: you could at least follow the style ;)
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>could be enough with a nice client program with some dropdowns where you can select those...
20:45<strstrep>oh, that's right
20:45<strstrep>I should read up on that.
20:45<Eddi|zuHause3>i am NOT going to program an IDE
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have to
20:46<Eddi|zuHause3>just forget that thought, talk to Wolf01 ;)
20:46|-|evert [~evert@83.101.25.163] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>what happened with wolf01?
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>he went to bed?
20:47<strstrep>I must be blind
20:47<strstrep>I can't find the coding style file
20:47<Gonozal_VIII>yes but... why should i talk to him?
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>he wants a klicki-bunti definition of grfs ;)
20:48<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
20:48<Gonozal_VIII>maybe i could hack together something in java...
20:48<SmatZ>strstrep: check wiki
20:48<Eddi|zuHause3>it might be easier once i finish my work
20:49<Gonozal_VIII>i know
20:49<Gonozal_VIII>can't select some stupid hex values that don't say anything from a dropdown...
20:49<strstrep>Spaces around equals?
20:50<Eddi|zuHause3>wise use of spaces can improve readability
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>i always places spaces around '='
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>-es
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>+e
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>^^
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>it's nice that python disallows assignments in if expressions, because writing "=" instead of "==" is the most common mistake i make
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>i only did that at the beginning...
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>java compiler complains about that
20:53<Eddi|zuHause3>after decades of only programming in Pascal-like languages, i always make that mistake
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>most common mistake for me is to forget the ;
20:54<strstrep>Mmm Perl >:-)
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>when i write something in java it hardly ever compiles on first try because of some missing ;
20:56<Eddi|zuHause3>i rarely do that... except at the end of a block
20:56<Eddi|zuHause3>pascal did not need ; before "end"
20:56<Eddi|zuHause3>what i occasionally do is try to write ; in python, which does not need it
20:57<Gonozal_VIII>or when i copy and paste stuff around i often copy too much
20:57<Eddi|zuHause3>if (a) {b} else {c} <- and suddenly i forgot two ;
20:58<Gonozal_VIII>i wouldn't write that in a single line...
20:58<strstrep>New patch
20:59<Eddi|zuHause3>doesn't matter
20:59<strstrep>I added a comment, too
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>i know it doesn't matter for the compiler but it matters for me
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>i always make a newline after {
21:00<Eddi|zuHause3>no, what i mean is "i just wrote it in one line here for compactness, i'd probably split it in a program"
21:00<strstrep>Sorry about that.
21:00<Gonozal_VIII>ah ok
21:00<Eddi|zuHause3>the fact is, i often forget ; before }
21:01<Gonozal_VIII>it's not so easy to forget that, if the } is in another line
21:01<SmatZ>strstrep: no problem, I hope it will help (it should help at least with part of it)...
21:01<SmatZ>night
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21:01<Eddi|zuHause3>unless you learned pascal first ;)
21:02<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, the = == issue is much more common
21:02<Eddi|zuHause3>i practically make that every time...
21:02<Gonozal_VIII>well... at uni they told us so often about the = == issue that almost nobody made that mistake
21:03<Gonozal_VIII>it was one of the first things they told us
21:03<Eddi|zuHause3>sure, i know the issue
21:03<Eddi|zuHause3>still i make it
21:04<Eddi|zuHause3>it's one of the reasons why i hate C-style syntax
21:04<Gonozal_VIII>then it's a good thing that it's not allowed and the compiler complains
21:05<Gonozal_VIII>otherwise there would be a lot of strange bugs because of that
21:06<pv2b>i dislike pascal syntax. so many words, so few symbols
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>it's 3 am :O it was 1 am just a few moments ago...
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21:26<strstrep>http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_41_-_50#gameid_43
21:26<strstrep>sorry, wrong channel
21:27<+glx>hehe at least it wasn't the auto-kick command :)
21:28<Eddi|zuHause3>does that actually work meanwhile?
21:30<Gonozal_VIII>!password
21:30|-|Gonozal_VIII kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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21:30<Gonozal_VIII>no
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21:46<strstrep>I take it you get that a lot.
21:50<Gonozal_VIII>actually it only happened once afaik
21:57<+glx>once we had someone who typed it 3 or 4 times within 30 minutes
21:57<Eddi|zuHause3>once a week you mean
21:58|-|Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46c2b.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:58<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't see any kicks because of that since the script is there (except on purpose)
21:59<Eddi|zuHause3>grep "\!password" oftc.net* | wc -l
21:59<Eddi|zuHause3>48
21:59<Gonozal_VIII>?
22:00<Gonozal_VIII>can that thing also count the kicks?
22:02<Eddi|zuHause3>grep "\!password" oftc.net* -A1 | grep geworfen | wc -l
22:02<Eddi|zuHause3>6
22:06<Eddi|zuHause3>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/TTDTrains.py <-- updated with Vehicle IDs
22:06<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
22:07<Eddi|zuHause3>now import these names into a definition table...
22:08<Gonozal_VIII>interface where you select the names and it generates the hex...
22:08<Gonozal_VIII>^^
22:08<Eddi|zuHause3>a definition table has to reverse these lists
22:09<Eddi|zuHause3>but that can be autogenerated easily
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23:47<Gonozal_VIII>""" <-- that's some kind of multi line comment thing?
23:50<Gonozal_VIII>hmm doesn't matter...
23:50<Gonozal_VIII><-- bed
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 27 00:00:09 2007