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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-12-27

---Logopened Thu Dec 27 00:00:09 2007
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04:23<dihedral>hello :-)
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04:39<LA[lord]>hello dihedral
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06:25<ludde>hello
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06:26<dihedral>hello ludde
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06:30<ludde>sup
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06:31<dihedral>not much
06:31<dihedral>just saying hi
06:32<dihedral>'hi' :-P
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06:32<wiese>hi
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06:35<nzvip>Hehe.
06:35<nzvip>I laughed.
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07:14<@Belugas>hello ludde and dihedral
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07:15<dihedral>hello Belugas
07:15<dihedral>how are you?
07:16<SmatZ>hello
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07:28<Digitalfox_>Good morning everybody, or good afternoon or good night :)
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07:47<wiese>hi, may i ask a question? i searched the wiki and wondered if it's possible to have different typs of settings (temperate, sub-tropical,..) on one map
07:48<dihedral>yes you may ask a question
07:48<dihedral>may i give you an answer?
07:49<Digitalfox_>yes you may give an answer dihedral o_O
07:49<wiese>yes please :)
07:50<dihedral>it's not possible :-P
07:51<wiese>damn
07:51<dihedral>Digitalfox_: i was making fun of 'asking to ask a question' :-P
07:51<Digitalfox_>i know and also was i ;)
07:51<dihedral>though you might like the alpine grf wiese
07:53<Digitalfox_>Why can't i change my nickname to Digitalfox without the _ ?? " === #openttd.notice You may not change nickname while banned or moderated on a channel (+b/+q/+m)"
07:54<dihedral>haha
07:54<dihedral>where are you from Digitalfox_ ?
07:54<wiese>i like the temperate most :) but in order of making an europe map, it's very tricky to get the right sort of industrie (because the continent got several typs of settings)
07:54<dihedral>if you dont mind me asking
07:55<Digitalfox_>Portugal, why?
07:55<dihedral>just curious
07:55<ln->Digitalfox_: there's the answer.
07:55<Digitalfox_>And you?
07:55<dihedral>germany
07:55<Digitalfox_>ln, yeah, but it's damn boring to have to quit and enter the channel again
07:55<Digitalfox_>Just because of ISP timeout
07:56<Digitalfox_>Here our ISP renew our IP every 36H
07:56<dihedral>use /rejoin?
07:56<dihedral>or /reconnect
07:57<Digitalfox_>yeah, i've done that dihedral :)
07:57<dihedral>have you registered your nick with nickserv?
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07:57<Digitalfox_>Also our biggest ISP has this crazy diffrence between nacional traffica and internacional traffic
07:57<Digitalfox_>dihedral: no
07:58<dihedral>talk to nickserv (/msg nickserv help)
07:58<Digitalfox_>So bettwen nacional clientes i can make ilimited trafic. but for interncaional traffic i have 120GB of limit
07:58<dihedral>?
07:59<ln->c->t and i -> un
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08:00<dihedral>tlients ??
08:00<wiese>no national
08:00<dihedral>i was pulling ln-'s leg
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08:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11705 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1557]: trains could have sprites with wrong direction when reversing, also was inconsistent with save/load process (possible desyncs)
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08:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11706 /trunk/src/ (83 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: split vehicle.h and remove another bunch of useless includes.
08:38<roboboy>gnight soon
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09:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11707 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: do not allow refitting flooded (destroyed) vehicles
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09:25<dihedral>how on earth could destroyed vehicles be refitted?
09:26<@Belugas>thus the fix ;)
09:28<dihedral>hehe - no
09:28<dihedral>i mean
09:28<dihedral>how was it possible before?
09:29<dihedral>because if it was not possible, why a fix?
09:30<@Belugas>if SmatZ fixed it, it means that he has found a way to do so, and i trust him on finding/fixing strange bugs :)
09:31<Vikthor>dihedral: You can have flooded vehicle in depot I believe
09:32<SmatZ>yes, flooded vehicles in depot were reason for some fixes
09:32<SmatZ>eg. they could be sold
09:32<SmatZ>they could be moved
09:32<dihedral>Belugas: i was not trying to say anything against that
09:32<+glx>and even if it was not possible using gui, internally it could be possible
09:32<dihedral>just wanted to still my curiosity :-D
09:33<dihedral>glx: yeah - ok :-P
09:34<dihedral>but getting back to what SmatZ found
09:34<dihedral>flooded vehicles in a depot
09:34<@Belugas>dihedral: to be honest, i'd rather not know :)
09:34<dihedral>would the depot not be flooded also
09:34<dihedral>Belugas: LOL
09:34<SmatZ>dihedral: http://bugs.openttd.org/?getfile=1719 things like this were possible earlier too
09:34<SmatZ>you could have some 'ghost' train of flooded wagons ;-)
09:35<SmatZ>dihedral: just try it
09:35<dihedral>hehehe
09:35<dihedral>did it make extra money? :-P
09:35<SmatZ>no :)
09:35<SmatZ>it just caused asserts when multiheaded engine was missing its second part
09:35<dihedral>:-P
09:36|-|Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46c2b.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
09:36|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
09:38[~]dihedral greets 'the' Bjarni
09:39[~]qball hides from 'the' Bjarni
09:39<@Bjarni>greetings people
09:39<dihedral>hello
09:39[~]Bjarni catches qball
09:39[~]dihedral points at qball
09:39<@Bjarni>now pay up
09:39<dihedral>there he is
09:39<dihedral>Bjarni beat me to it :-P
09:42<qball>omg, bjarni catched me...
09:42[~]qball puts on the armored underwear
09:43<@Bjarni>...
09:43<@Bjarni>expecting to be put in jail?
09:43<qball>you know what the judge said, Bjarni. you cannot mollest inocent people
09:43<@Bjarni>but I am the law
09:44<@Bjarni>however I have no interest in you
09:44<qball>thx god
09:44<@Bjarni>besides missing taxes
09:44<dihedral>you guys are odd
09:45<qball>dihedral: be nice..
09:45<qball>we are
09:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r11708 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (fullscreen.mm wnd_quartz.mm wnd_quickdraw.mm): -Fix [FS#1598]: Removed include of variables.h as it was no longer needed and caused compilation to fail.
09:46<dihedral>qball: you are odd?
09:46<SmatZ>I am even
09:46<qball>I am complex
09:46<dihedral>qball is femail!
09:46<dihedral>ops - nice typo :-P
09:47[~]Bjarni fesends qball after making sure it has enough festamps on it
09:48<qball>bah, he directly wants to fondle again
09:49<@Bjarni>hey
09:49<@Bjarni>I don't sense any sexual feeling regarding sending packages at the post office
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09:51[~]dihedral is not interested when Bjarni does or does not 'sense secual feelings'
09:52<dihedral>flippen heck - got a typo day....
09:52<@Belugas>sexual healing
09:52<@Bjarni>I'm not talking about it but it looks like qball wants to
09:53<dihedral>just get yourselves a room will ya?
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09:54<@Bjarni>not with him
09:55<@Bjarni>he is a guy
09:55<dihedral>not so sure about that
09:55<dihedral>15:46 < qball> I am complex
09:56<@Bjarni>well
09:56<@Bjarni>I still don't want to get a room with him
09:57<@Bjarni>or her
09:57<@Bjarni>or it
09:57<@Bjarni>or whatever
09:57<dihedral>you never know what might get revealed :-P
09:58<@Bjarni>like in Larry 5 or 6 or whatever it was... he went on a date and his date ended up getting a boner
09:58<@Bjarni>talk about a turnoff
09:59<dihedral>hehe - yes
09:59<dihedral>5
09:59<dihedral>at the beach
09:59<dihedral>:-P
09:59<@Bjarni>I can't remember
09:59<@Bjarni>it has been a while
10:00<@Bjarni>and I didn't even bother to finish any of the games besides the first one
10:00<@Bjarni>didn't even try all of them
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10:01<dihedral>i know because it was the only one i ever played
10:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11709 /trunk/config.lib:
10:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1385 FS#1386]: [OSX] Compiles on Leopard with the default settings
10:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] configure will no longer enable static by default
10:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Turns out that Leopard can't handle static builds without the user installing extra libs
10:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: The tradeoff is that now people might have to enable static manually if moving the binary around
10:06<hylje>apple breaking stuff, news at 11
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10:06<skidd13>evening folks
10:06<dihedral>hello skidd13
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>i think i have now action8 support in my compiler ;)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>0 * 4 01 00 00 00
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>1 * 91 08 07 54 58 01 01 4E 61 6D 65 20 67 6F 65 73 20 68 65 72 65 00 68 65 72 65 20 79 6F 75 20 63 61 6E 20 77 72 69 74 65 20 61 20 6C 6F 6E 67 65 72 20 64 65 73 63 72 69 70 74 69 6F 6E 0A 69 6E 20 6D 75 6C 74 69 70 6C 65 20 6C 69 6E 65 73 0A 69 66 20 79 6F 75 20 77 61 6E 74 00
10:12<@Bjarni><hylje> apple breaking stuff, news at 11 <-- actually this wouldn't have been a problem if I had just followed Apple's guidelines :P
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>output of:
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>GrfID=('TX\x01\x01','Name goes here',
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>"""here you can write a longer description
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>in multiple lines
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>if you want""") #Set the GRFID
10:12<hylje>is that some python
10:12<Eddi|zuHause3>that is python, yes ;)
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10:13<@Bjarni>I thought python had way more sssh sounds in it
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10:13<+glx>does it work with empty description?
10:14<Eddi|zuHause3>it should
10:14<@Bjarni>should.... how about testing it? :)
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10:14<Eddi|zuHause3>0 * 4 01 00 00 00
10:14<Eddi|zuHause3>1 * 8 08 07 54 58 01 01 00 00
10:15<+glx>seems right
10:15<Eddi|zuHause3>next step... action 0
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10:46<LordAzamath>hey
10:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11710 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Feature: [build vehicles windows] added sorting for cost, running costs and speed to road vehicles and ships build windows
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10:48<LordAzamath>what was the last big feature added since r11666
10:48<LordAzamath>I think heree should I update my nightly
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10:51<@Bjarni>the nightly builds are made to test changes. That purpose kind of dies if you do not update even for minor changes
10:52<LordAzamath>Yeah, but are what are the biggest changes then
10:52[~]LordAzamath is too lazy for a changelog
10:52<dihedral>Bjarni: that commit (11710) will that feature be added to the train build list too?
10:52<LordAzamath>!nightly
10:53<LordAzamath>what's the shortcut ffor it?
10:53<skidd13>@nightly
10:53<skidd13>hmm... nope
10:54<skidd13>http://www.openttd.org/nightly.php
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10:55<LordAzamath>it's so great that I no more have to copy all grf files to new binary whenever I dl it :) (I could do that before too, but I wasn't aware of that :))
10:55<dihedral>talking of which
10:55<SmatZ>LordAzamath: because of symlinks?
10:55<@Bjarni>dihedral: it was already added to the trains and aircraft windows.... I just forgot to add it to the rest of the windows ages ago
10:56<dihedral>Bjarni: would it not make more sense to have the OpenTTD directory for os x under ~/Library ?
10:56<@Bjarni>hmm
10:56<@Bjarni>good question
10:56<dihedral>or ~/Library/Application Support/
10:56<dihedral>where everything else is keep too
10:56<dihedral>for linux it uses ~/.openttd
10:56<@Bjarni>not everything else
10:56<LordAzamath>smatz, I just hold all grfs (trg1r etc) in local openttd/data
10:56<LordAzamath>dunno what are symlinks :D
10:57<@Bjarni>I have seen ~/Documents used for other games as well
10:57<dihedral>really?
10:57<dihedral>ouch
10:57<dihedral>nasty :-P
10:57<@Bjarni>if we place it in library then most users will not look at it
10:58<dihedral>they dont anyway!!
10:58<@Bjarni>kind of stupid since we add screenshots and stuff
10:58<dihedral>how about a deal...
10:58<dihedral>you change it and i answer all silly user questions that arise because of it :-)
10:59<@Bjarni>ohh that reminds me
10:59<LordAzamath>Japan? trains?
10:59<@Bjarni>I haven't updated the docs to tell where the files are
10:59[~]Bjarni slaps LordAzamath
10:59<dihedral>TrueBrain told me to look out for your 'that reminds me' lines
10:59<hylje>LordAzamath: japan is *the* train country
11:00<@Bjarni> <LordAzamath> Japan? trains? <--- no.... but your line did the trick :P
11:00<LordAzamath>hehe
11:00<LordAzamath>because I remember
11:00<@Bjarni>you too?
11:00<@Bjarni>scary
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11:02<LordAzamath>why don't you have line breaks in changelog which comes bundled with nightly?
11:02[~]dihedral has no app that saves it's stuff in ~/Documents
11:03<@Belugas>BigBB : good luck with your attempt ;)
11:03<BigBB>Hi Belugas thanks :)
11:04<LordAzamath>is this ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35488 ) thing fault of Open or grf?
11:04<@Bjarni>dihedral: I have a few.... Lego creations and such
11:05<LordAzamath>you play with legos? wow....Japanese lego trains, perfect for Brickland
11:05<skidd13>LordAzamath: Simple rule if it works in Patch as expected.. it's mostly Opens fault... sad but true
11:05<LordAzamath>ok...
11:05<@Belugas>agreed. But the problem may not be as simple
11:06<@Bjarni>dihedral: I have an idea... we could make a poll on the forum and ask people what they prefer... after all the forum contains the majority of users who wants to add grf files and stuff
11:07<LordAzamath>one thing more about grfs...is action04 fully supported?
11:07<LordAzamath>if it is, then I've got a bug rant
11:07<dihedral>Bjarni: how about we poll asking os x users where they would prefer having their OpenTTD directory
11:08<@Bjarni>isn't that what I just said?
11:08<dihedral>i thought you meant people in general
11:08<dihedral>i.e. all openttd players
11:09<dihedral>to see if they use grf's or the OpenTTD directory at all
11:09<@Bjarni>surely we will have to say that only OSX users should vote
11:09<dihedral>sorry
11:09<dihedral>my bad
11:09<@Bjarni>bbl
11:10<dihedral>cu
11:10<ln->what are you going to vote about?
11:10<dihedral>where os x users would like to have their OpenTTD directory
11:10<dihedral>in ~/Documents or ~/Library/OpenTTD or ~/Library/Appliaction Support/OpenTTD
11:11<dihedral>~/Documents/OpenTTD is where it is now
11:12<LordAzamath>anyway, the rant: xx * xx 04 48 80 01 01 58 "Toll Booth" 00 -> should change string transmitter to toll booth
11:12<LordAzamath>Sometime long ago, I asked Pikkabird to test if it worked with patch
11:12<LordAzamath>it did
11:12<LordAzamath>but not in open
11:13<LordAzamath>I can change vehicle names with 04 though
11:13[~]Belugas thinks it's strange to have stuff saved in something called Library that is not code or binary oriented
11:13<+glx>LordAzamath: openttd doesn't support changing generic strings
11:13<LordAzamath>why?
11:13<ln->somehow i feel ~/Library/OpenTTD is not the right place at least.. or are there other application-specific folders at that level?
11:13<+glx>because it requires a lot of changes
11:14<ln->(too lazy to get the mac and check)
11:14<dihedral>ln- like most application folders....
11:14<LordAzamath>but is it somewhere in ToDo list (however far :D )
11:14<dihedral>for linux the dir is ~/.openttd iirc
11:14<LordAzamath>yes
11:14<LordAzamath>and for win under my documents/OpenTTD
11:15<@Belugas>which makes sens... those are just... documents :)
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11:15<dihedral>yes?
11:16<dihedral>you call all the .grf's documents?
11:16<@Belugas>yup
11:16<pv2b>Bjarni: I vote for somewhere in ~/Library
11:16<@Belugas>those are not executable code, just documents
11:16<LordAzamath>bjarni is away
11:16<pv2b>i vote... in his absence. *<:-P
11:16<dihedral>Belugas: you call Thunderbirds *.rdf and *.mab files documents
11:17<@Belugas>since i'm not aware of those extensions, i can't answer
11:17<ln->the mac ~/Documents folder is not meant for stuff that cannot be directly opened with any application.
11:17<dihedral>they are the files in thunderbirds 'Profiles' directory
11:18<dihedral>you have a mix of stuff in that folder
11:18<dihedral>(in the OpenTTD folder)
11:18<dihedral>screenshots
11:18<@Belugas>which does not help me any more, dihedral
11:18<dihedral>grf's scn's
11:19<dihedral>firefox in linux stores it's profile data in ~/.mozilla
11:19<dihedral>thunderbird in ~/.thunderbird
11:19<dihedral>OpenTTD in ~/.openttd
11:19<@Belugas>waht is a profile data?
11:19<LordAzamath>thunderbird is for linux too?
11:19<LordAzamath>that's good :)
11:20<pv2b>ln-: there are plenty of app folders directly under ~/Library
11:20<dihedral>for thunderbird the 'profile data' is e.g. host:port username and password of your mail account
11:20<ln->pv2b: ok
11:21<@Belugas>so, basically, configuration
11:21<dihedral>firefox stores favorites history etc there
11:21<dihedral>and os x _does_ have a differences between data stored in ~/Library and ~/Library/Application Support
11:21<pv2b>savegames under ~/Documents, grf's in the library.
11:21<LordAzamath>do you have some documentation somewhere about which grf actions are supported and which parameers etc? I have been to wiki, but it only mentions actions w/o explanation
11:21<dihedral>pv2b: splitting that up will not be helpful
11:22<@Belugas>i agree with dihedral
11:22<@Belugas>LordAzamath, yes. let me find it
11:22<pv2b>most games seem to keep data files in ~/Library/Application Support
11:22<pv2b>if you want to be consistent, splitting savegames and grfs up makes sense
11:22<dihedral>define 'most'
11:23<@Belugas>LordAzamath: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/NewGRF_Support
11:23<pv2b>dihedral: all games i currently have installed
11:23<@Belugas>it should be quite up to date
11:23<dihedral>that is not a good definition of 'most games'
11:23<dihedral>as i highly doubt you have 'most' games
11:23<@Belugas>pv2b : that is only relevant to your experience. do not generalize
11:23<pv2b>dihedral: which is why i don't say "most games put".. i said "most games seem to put"
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11:24<dihedral>and that is an assumption - which is why i mention it :-)
11:24<LordAzamath>hmm..I said I've been there :D and with emptiness I meant i.e action 4 is just mentioned with link to specs
11:24<pv2b>many of these games ive only installed and launched maybe once, but these are the games that put their game data in ~/Library/Application Support
11:24<LordAzamath>but nowhere is written (for n00bs like me) what things aren't supported in action4
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11:25<pv2b>Chess (the apple variant), Darwinia, Duke Nukem 3D, everything by Freeverse goes in Freeberse, Quake3, SecondLife, SketchFighgter, SuperTux, everything by Swoop Softare goes in that folder, Wolfenstein ET, X2 - the threat, ...
11:25<pv2b>i can't find a single game directly under ~/Library in fact
11:25<pv2b>on my machine
11:26<dihedral>and where will they put screenshots, savegames, etc?
11:26<LordAzamath>it can't be very on-date, if it says that tram tracks in instance aren't supported
11:26<skidd13>LordAzamath: set the grf debug in console and you get notice which stuff of the GRF is not supported
11:26<pv2b>dihedral: some of them put them in the application folder and don't present a file-browser interface at all to the player
11:27<pv2b>dihedral: some of them save them as "savegame files" and put them wherever the user wants them to be put using a file/save-open metaphor
11:27<pv2b>err
11:27<pv2b>not the application folder, the library/application support folder
11:28<pv2b>lots of games simply have a typical save/load screen
11:28<pv2b>with "slots"
11:28<dihedral>'lots' as in 'most of _your_ games'
11:28<pv2b>openttd doesn't really work that way, it's more document oriented in its savegame model
11:28<@Belugas>LordAzamath: basic rule : it there is nothing written, it mostly mean support
11:28<@Belugas>but... never be too sure.
11:28<LordAzamath>yes
11:28<pv2b>dihedral: sure, but i think i have a pretty good sample. if you want to contribute some other data, go ahead
11:29<@Belugas>LordAzamath I've tried to veryfy it all, it seems to be consistent
11:29<pv2b>dihedral: also "lots" isn't the same as saying "most".
11:29<dihedral>but it's an assumption none the less :-P
11:30<pv2b>a reasonable assumption
11:30<pv2b>openttd is the only game i have, that i cna think of, that keeps stuff in its own folderin /Applications like that.
11:30<dihedral>there are more :-)
11:31<LordAzamath>because if I hadn't asked pikka to test, I would never had known that I had coded right, because there was nothing written in wiki about action4 support. Back then I though I was hopeless and it was me who screwed up with something
11:31<dihedral>dont remember their names, but i have seen more than just ottd
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11:31<pv2b>dihedral: you're right, i just took a look - seems quake 3 arena does that too, but it also keeps files in library/application support. hmmmm.
11:31<LordAzamath>and I didn't know about grf debug otion
11:31<dihedral>q3a might keep info such as your cd key in there
11:31<pv2b>dihedral: ah, i have two revisions of quake 3 -- an older one and a newer one. the oler ne keeps its crap in the /application folder, the newer one in the lbirary
11:32[~]Belugas has spotted a not supported case in action 04
11:32<dihedral>Belugas: is that what LordAzamath has been going on about for the last 30 mins?
11:32<LordAzamath>:)
11:32<pv2b>eitehr way, htere needs to be a split between "stock-supplied" files and "user-supplied" files
11:32<dihedral>nope
11:33<dihedral>where do you put Pages custom templates?
11:33<dihedral>:-)
11:33<pv2b>dihedral: i don't have pages istalled
11:33<LordAzamath>no I spotted it when I was doing transmitter replacement to you and pikka said that it worked in patch (renaming)
11:33<dihedral>i do :-P
11:33<pv2b>dihedral: but i bet the stock templates are eitehr i /Library or in the app bundle
11:33<pv2b>the custom ones are in ~/Library i bet... maybe in ~/Documents
11:34<dihedral>nope - not ~/Documents
11:34<pv2b>so somewhere in ~/Library then
11:34<pv2b>since they're user-specific
11:34<pv2b>unless it found its own place to put it
11:35<dihedral>~/Library/Application Support/iWork/Pages/Templates/My Templates/
11:35<pv2b>yeah, and the stock templates i bet are not there
11:35<pv2b>probably in /Library/Application Support/iWork/Pages/Templates/ if i know apple *<:-)
11:36<pv2b>that -- or in the app bundle
11:36<dihedral>how about /Library?
11:36<pv2b>how about /Library for what?
11:36<dihedral>no - forget it
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11:37<dihedral>their templates are not in /Library
11:37<pv2b>ooh, i hae an expired pages trial install. i'll look in their app bundle.
11:38<pv2b>/Applications/iWork/Pages.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/Templates/
11:38<dihedral>so you are saying to have the land folder and shipped data folder in the bundled .app
11:38<dihedral>and all other stuff in ~/Library/OpenTTD
11:38<pv2b>yeah
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11:38<pv2b>actually
11:39<dihedral>sounds good
11:39<pv2b>~/library/application support/openttd
11:39<pv2b>brb phone
11:39<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... while reading these newgrf specs i repetitively stumble over the same kind of question... like "what are sane values for property 12 (Sprite ID) except FD (use newgrf)"?
11:39<pv2b>back
11:40<pv2b>so yeah, shipped data in the .app and grf in ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD
11:40<pv2b>an everything else too, like config
11:40<Eddi|zuHause3>or "in action 2, can i refer back more than the last action 1, how do these values look like"?
11:41<pv2b>the user gets to choose where he puts his savegames anyway, but if it defaults inside Library.... well ok.. in Documents would be more logical... but put it in Library unless you're willing to implement double clicking openttd savegames
11:42<Eddi|zuHause3>pv2b: it should not be too difficult to associate sav files with "openttd -g"
11:42<dihedral>drag sav games onto the .app :-P
11:42<pv2b>dihedral: heh, that acctually works? i never tried it *<:-)
11:43<dihedral>hehe
11:43<dihedral>nope
11:43<dihedral>but it would be fun :-)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>that should not immediately work, because you need to specify -g
11:43<dihedral>but then again - i dont play that many sav games
11:44<pv2b>you probalby need to implement however file associations work in osx... probably some crap in the plist file and decoding the argv osx sends you whenever something like that happens
11:44<LordAzamath>hmm..I should probably go back to linux now...brb
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11:48<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause3, i can't answer you
11:48<@Belugas>not without extended research, anyway
11:49<@Belugas>which i do not feel like doing :S
11:49<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, the doc is not very specific sometimes...
11:49<@Belugas>it assumes you should know... or as Dalestan mentionned once, that you've read it all first
11:50<pv2b>btw. how old is the master server protocol? i want to find whoever deciced it's be funny to send the IP address in little-endian and the port in big-endian in the same packet
11:50<pv2b>s/it's/it'd/
11:51<@Belugas>svn blame, pv2b
11:51<pv2b>that only finds the last person to implement the protocol, not the first person to define it *<:-)
11:51<@Belugas>LA[lord], i've updated the wiki, assuming you are LordAzamath ;)
11:51<LA[lord]>I am :)
11:52<pv2b>though that person also deserves a little talking to, the code implementation was misleading
11:52<pv2b>he used TO_LE32 to convert from little-endian to network byte order
11:52<pv2b>or no.
11:52<pv2b>from little-endian to... uh.... something
11:53<pv2b>good thing we have packet sniffers
11:54<LA[lord]>Belugas, if generic strings are "kind of" supported then how do I kind of use it?
11:54<LA[lord]>for action04
11:57<@Belugas>if you look at the history, you'll notice the "possibly wrong" section :)
11:57<hylje>one thing came in mind..
11:57<hylje>to free up some road crossing bits
11:57<hylje>only allow the slower (conventional) rail to have crossings at all
11:57<@Belugas>LA[lord] i'm at work, right now, and not able to run nor debug stuff
11:58<LA[lord]>ok :)
11:58<hylje>though it'd break old savegames badly :>
11:58<@Belugas>hylje, that is NOT a good idea
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... how does that look like:
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>class MyPassengerWagon(TTDPassengerWagon): #We define a new Passenger wagon, and override the default wagon
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3> SpriteID=0xFD
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3> IntroductionDate=1234
11:58<@Belugas>i just can imagine the complaints....
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>turns into:
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>2 * 10 00 00 02 01 1B 00 D2 04 12 FD
12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>1B == ID of the passenger wagon
12:01<@Belugas>interesting :)
12:02<@Bjarni>back
12:02<@Bjarni>looks like this channel wants to use ~/Library so making a poll is a bit pointless
12:03<@Bjarni>now the question is... how should I make this change without breaking it for everybody using ~/Documents/OpenTTD
12:04[~]Belugas does not care much about in which folder osx saves ottd stuff, but would imagine more osx users may have more opinions on forums
12:04<@Bjarni>and should we care since it has never been in an official release
12:04[~]Bjarni heads for the forum
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12:08<pv2b>uh. this code should never have worked to start with. i don't understand why it works.
12:08<pv2b>it's in the server browser -- network_udp.cpp
12:09<@Belugas>[12:14] <pv2b> uh. this code should never have worked to start with. <--- but it does :)
12:10<@Belugas>[12:14] <pv2b> ...i don't understand why it works. <---- now, that is something else :)
12:10<@Belugas>for the record, it's quite magical to me too. But i would not say that it should not work...
12:11<pv2b>take a look at DEF_UDP_RECEIVE_COMMAND(Client, PACKET_UDP_MASTER_RESPONSE_LIST)
12:11<pv2b>on the wire, the fields are sent with the port in the correct byte order (little endian) for the protocol.
12:11<pv2b>the ip address is sent in big endian (so the wrong byte order for the protocol)
12:12<pv2b>so when the packet is received on the machine it has to be converted from "architecture-specific wrong byte order" into network byte order
12:12<pv2b>(you get architecture-specific wrong byte order from p->Recv_uint32())
12:12<pv2b>so... he uses TO_LE32?!
12:13<pv2b>and somehow this works on both big-endian and little-endian machines?
12:15<@Belugas>could it be that you have failed to understand a magice here and there? 'Cause it do work
12:15<pv2b>probably
12:16<@Belugas>and no, i cannot answer you, i have no knowledge of networking
12:16<pv2b>that, or TO_LE32 is a broken and misleading name for a macro
12:16<@Belugas>or adapted to the currently used platform
12:16<@Belugas>or it is somewhere else that the magic hapens
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12:18<pv2b>ah. now i see. on a little-endian machine, no byte swap is performed
12:18<SmatZ>pv2b: network byte order is big endian
12:18<pv2b>SmatZ: it is, but the openttd protocol uses little-endian
12:18<@Bjarni>how do I change font size on the forum?
12:18<@Bjarni>I want the first line to be bigger than the rest
12:18<pv2b>oh, now i think i understand how it works.
12:19<SmatZ>pv2b: sockets and so should be initiated with big endian
12:19<pv2b>SmatZ: yeah, i know
12:19<pv2b>if you perform TO_LE32 on an integer on a big-endian machine, it performs byte swap (converting from HBO to little-endian)
12:19<SmatZ>the datacan be sent in little endian - because mos tof clients use little endian
12:19<SmatZ>and because it is ported from TTD that was using little endian
12:20<pv2b>if on a little-endian machine, it does nothing
12:20<pv2b>so, perform byteswap on a big-endian machie, no byteswap on a little-endian machine
12:20<SmatZ>:)
12:20<pv2b>but if the input is *always* in the wrong byte order:
12:20<pv2b>on a little-endian machine: that's big-endian->big-endian
12:20<pv2b>on a bigg-endian machine: little-endian->big-endian
12:21<pv2b>this should be commented. will you commit a patch if i add a comment? *<:-)
12:21<SmatZ>pv2b: most likely not for one comment
12:21<SmatZ>you can comment whole file :-))))
12:21<@Belugas>definitively, if the comment is quite thorough
12:21<@Bjarni>that depends on the comment
12:21[~]Belugas seconds SmatZ :D
12:21<pv2b>okay. i'll get back to you in a few minutes
12:21<pv2b>i have no svn write access so ill have to send it to someone
12:22<@Bjarni>you can comment the whole file that quickly???
12:22<SmatZ>:)))
12:22<pv2b>no, just that really confusing part.
12:22<pv2b>the rest is really clear
12:23<pv2b>openttd avoids byte order issues by using an abstraction that converts from little-endian to host byte order before anything else is done, so usually there's no real problems
12:23<SmatZ>similiar thing is done while loading/saving game
12:25|-|mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.broadband.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
12:25<@Bjarni>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=35490 <-- ok... I made a poll on the forums so now we will see how it turns out
12:26<@Bjarni>we can always hope for interesting replies
12:28<ln->would you mind uppercasing e.g. "application support", now it doesn't stand out as a path name, just random words.
12:29<ln->and i vote for placing screenshots in ~/Documents/OpenTTD, most other stuff in ~/Application Support/OpenTTD
12:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11711 /trunk/src/ (fios.h functions.h intro_gui.cpp main_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Name the Save Load Dialog Mode enum
12:31<@Bjarni>ln-: done
12:33|-|BigBB_ [~BigBB@p5B041A1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
12:34<@Belugas>nice poll, Bjarni, well written :)
12:35<@Bjarni>thanks
12:35<@Bjarni>I think so too
12:35<@Bjarni>specially the part where I claim the rights to ignore the result :P
12:36|-|MDGrein [~MDGrein@c-e43472d5.02-56-736b7610.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
12:37<@Belugas>yeah :D
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12:43<LA[Lord]>so it's like ask their opinion but do whatever you like? :D
12:45<pv2b>ln-: what about savegames?
12:45<pv2b>ln-: hell, i think screenshots should go on the desktop -- that's mac convention
12:46<@Belugas>or rather see what are the different opinions...
12:46<@Belugas>and if something very interesting comes up, well... why not :)
12:46<pv2b>i'll post on the forum a bit later as soon as i finish this.
12:47<pv2b>Belugas: like "clearly, we shguldn't be putting all the burden of saving this on the user computer. we need to work on converting openttd into a web2.0 application. then all of these user-side storage issues will just disappear"
12:47|-|Wolf01 [~wolf01@host39-235-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
12:48<Wolf01>hello
12:48<SmatZ>hello Wolf01
12:48[~]SmatZ just heard "web2.0" buzzword :-x
12:49<@Belugas>pv2b : you are strange man...
12:49<pv2b>Belugas: i meant that as a joke. *<:-)
12:49<Wolf01>hi Belugas, had a nice xmas?
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12:49<@Belugas>still trying to digest all the good food i've had on my plate, Wolf01 :) thanks and you?
12:51<Wolf01>yes, some pain in the back thanks to stupid weather, a lot of money spent and the good "lasagne" of my grandmother :)
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12:51<@Bjarni> <LA[Lord]> so it's like ask their opinion but do whatever you like? :D <-- it's a guideline. If everybody decides on something then it could be the solution. If 70% says the same but somebody brings up a really good argument telling why it's a bad idea then it's a bad idea
12:51<@Bjarni>bahh
12:51<@Bjarni>he left
12:52<@Bjarni>anyway nobody claims the majority to be right
12:52<pv2b>Bjarni: that's how democracy should work. it'd eliminiate so much stupidity in government.
12:52<@Bjarni>if we have a poll where the result is that 2+2=5 it wouldn't make it right just because the majority says so
12:53<@Belugas>mmhhh... a real italian lasagna :D I'm ready to go eating again ;)
12:53<@Bjarni>democracy is a poor type of government but we use it because we lack something better
12:54<@Bjarni>dictatorship could be the best one if the people in charge would do the right things but usually they don't and then it ends up being a really bad type of government
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>that's what happened with "communism"
12:55<@Bjarni>I mean if you are elected for life then you don't have to think about the next election and you can plan far into the future... something that's rare in democracy where most politicians plans for the next election
12:55|-|kbrooks [~kbrooks@d235-130-238.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #openttd
12:55<kbrooks>hi
12:55<SmatZ>I don't think communism was bad, but it doesn't motivate people to do their best / at least something good :(
12:55<kbrooks>What's up?
12:56<SmatZ>kbrooks: nothing, really
12:56<@Bjarni>Communism didn't give people benefits for being productive so they stopped being productive
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>that is true, but that is not the ultimate reason why communism failed
12:56<kbrooks>http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openttd&search=Search # there you go
12:57<@Bjarni>kind of like the idea where every citizen should get a paycheck and then they can work on what they want.... now how many would work full time in a system like that?
12:57<kbrooks>Bjarni, none
12:57<@Bjarni>I think so too
12:58<@Bjarni>however there are still some people considering this to be the ultimate solution
12:58<kbrooks>Bjarni, why wouldn't i have the incentive to work full time?
12:58<pv2b>Bjarni: we shouldn'gt have to work full time in todays' society with so much automation
12:58<kbrooks>Bjarni, with the "paycheck" thing
12:58<pv2b>Bjarni: the only reason everybody mostly owrks full time is because of inefficiencies
12:59<kbrooks>Bjarni, would you like to answer my question?
12:59<@Bjarni>however those people also claims that we should accept everybody nomatter what political views they have AND they will not allow people to disagree with them
12:59<SmatZ>kbrooks: youtube video codec isn't really suited for ottd graphics
12:59<pv2b>unfortunately, the communist systme didn't really give anybody any incentive to be efficient either, and the time wasn't really ripe for lower working hours either
12:59<@Bjarni>"I will not talk to you because I will talk to everybody and I think that you don't want to do that"
13:00<@Bjarni> <kbrooks> Bjarni, would you like to answer my question? <--- it's not that I don't want to do that... I can't
13:01<kbrooks>Bjarni, why not?
13:01<kbrooks>SmatZ, yeah, i notice that
13:01<SmatZ>I think the mayor problem is that people had advantages when they were in the communist party, when they informed the police about somebody doing something "agains the country" etc.
13:02<SmatZ>but now, we have democracy, and this didn't change a lot
13:02<SmatZ>still there are people who are politics because they will have more success in their business this way (know people, have the chance to change laws, ...)
13:03<@Bjarni>we have a word for politicians like that
13:03<SmatZ>and now, cameras are "everywhere" - the state doesn't need any informers -
13:03<SmatZ>yes, partially they are called 'lobbists'
13:04<SmatZ>lobbism = new word for bribing
13:04<@Bjarni>I meant politicians being in politics because they can get more power/make more money than they could otherwise
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13:05<dihedral>:-)
13:05<kbrooks>blah ......
13:05<dihedral>are you talking down on my smily?
13:06<kbrooks>dihedral, no, on politics
13:06<SmatZ>:-)
13:06<dihedral>good answer
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13:06<kbrooks>i don't like the nature of politics
13:07<@Bjarni>The worst kind of politicians are those going into politics because their dad did and then they copy their politics... this means that they can't make compromises because you can make compromises when it comes to your political view, but not when you are following somebody else's political views
13:07<dihedral>you will not like it if i told you that your sentence just was political :-)
13:07<pv2b>any developer online with a windows machine? i need to see that my patch still works a. on a little-endian machine and b. on sometihng else than gcc. (it should, but i want to make sure)
13:08<dihedral>what kind of patch is it?
13:08<kbrooks>dihedral, that's your opinion
13:08<SmatZ>Bjarni: or they try to be better and more famous than their dad - Bush maybe?
13:08<dihedral>ah - and again politics :-P
13:08<pv2b>dihedral: a small refactoring that clarifies a part of the network protocol.
13:08<pv2b>dihedral: zero functional difference.
13:08<kbrooks>dihedral, ... but maybe my sentence was political (including this one?)
13:08<dihedral>nope
13:08<dihedral>Bjarni: did you already create the poll?
13:09<@Bjarni>yes
13:09<@Bjarni><SmatZ> Bjarni: or they try to be better and more famous than their dad - Bush maybe? <-- actually I was thinking about some local politicians but Bush is a candidate for this as well
13:10<@Bjarni>worst argument I ever heard during an election campaign "vote for me because you know my father"
13:10<@Bjarni>one guy actually said this
13:10<pv2b>Bjarni: actually a semivalid argument
13:10<pv2b>Bjarni: disclose your influences, disclose yourself
13:11<SmatZ>:)
13:11<@Bjarni>well... might be good if he said anything else as well
13:11<pv2b>it's probably one of the more honest campaign arguments you cna make
13:12<@Bjarni>what happened to "if I get elected I will try to do this and this"?
13:12<SmatZ>Bjarni: one politic here had a billboard with his photo and somthing like "I look siliar like politic A, and my name is the same as of politic B" (the sentence was written in a funny way, but still :)
13:12<pv2b>Bjarni: that's just bullshit anyway
13:12<@Bjarni>and then actually do it
13:12<Wolf01>Bjarni, what about adding a sort by cargo name to vehicle building windows?
13:12<SmatZ>actually, he died maybe one month ago... he was fixing his car and somebody crashed him :-x
13:12<@Bjarni><pv2b> Bjarni: that's just bullshit anyway <-- during last election only one party didn't change politics during the election and now they are actually doing what they claimed to do during the election
13:13<pv2b>Bjarni: nice. are their policies sane?
13:13<SmatZ>"and now they are actually doing what they claimed to do during the election" unbelievable!
13:13<@Bjarni>it's the 3rd largest party in the country so they can actually do stuff
13:13<pv2b>Bjarni: which party?
13:14<@Bjarni>DF
13:14<pv2b>Bjarni: that's a sad reflection of politics, that they're your most respectable political party *<:-/
13:15<@Bjarni>huh?
13:15<@Bjarni>have you ever listened to what they say themselves?
13:16<pv2b>Bjarni: i mean, respectible in the sense of being honest about what they want and what their politics are
13:16<@Bjarni>there is a large group of specially Swedish journalists who wants to claim stuff about them that they never say themselves and never tries to do
13:16<pv2b>Bjarni: not in the sense of having sane policy
13:16<@Bjarni>I don't know why specially the Swedish media flames them
13:19<Eddi|zuHause3>am i reading this correctly that grfs use \r (0x0D) as newline character internally?
13:20<dihedral>that sounds like the old mac os
13:20<pv2b>Bjarni: sure. i've been to their web site. sounds like pretty much the same fare sd put out on their site here in sweden.
13:21<dihedral>!dihedral
13:22<dihedral>wrong channel :-P
13:22<pv2b>dihedral: you have your own trigger? *<:-)
13:22<dihedral>aye - on openttdcoop
13:23[~]Bjarni shoots dihedral
13:23<dihedral>??
13:23<@Bjarni>here I have the trigger
13:23<pv2b>anyway, any developer online who uses a windows machine to develop on to test a patch?
13:23<dihedral>LOL
13:23<@Bjarni>any developer who use windows..... kind of hard to find
13:24<pv2b>Bjarni: who builds your windows binaries then?
13:24<@Bjarni>cross compile xD
13:24<pv2b>all right *<:-)
13:24<SmatZ>pv2b: a compile farm does all this compiling :)
13:24<pv2b>in that case, anyone with a little-endian machine with access to that compiler? *<;-)
13:25<SmatZ>pv2b: what changes did you do?
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13:25<@Bjarni>I thought you only added comments
13:25<pv2b>yeah, i thought so too, but i found a way to make the code a lot clearer.
13:25<@Bjarni>that's hardly an issue that needs testing on all platforms
13:25<pv2b>no, i just want to make sure i don't break little-endian machines
13:25<peter__>rm *.cpp D:
13:26<@Bjarni>rm -fr *
13:26<@Bjarni>that should remove all the buggy code
13:27<+tokai>peter__: don't forget *.hpp :)
13:27<pv2b>actually openttd uses *.h
13:27<SmatZ>+ * (port, little-endian) for each pair
13:27<pv2b>SmatZ: that's correct, verified using packet sniffer
13:27<SmatZ>:-x
13:28|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A47061.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
13:28<pv2b>everything is sent using the native protocol byte order (little endian) except the ip adress which is sent using the network byte order
13:29<@Bjarni>Vocaloid is NOT A HENTAI GAME <--- LOL. It's a voice synthesiser :D
13:29<@Bjarni>somebody actually claimed it to be not only a game, but a hentai game.... sometimes the internet scares me
13:30<Gonozal_VIII>only sometimes?
13:31<@Bjarni>that depends on what I'm looking at
13:31<@Bjarni>if I'm reading bash.org or anything else where regular users can say stuff then yes
13:32<@Bjarni>if it's something like openttd.org where only sane people have write access then no
13:32<Gonozal_VIII>your definition of sane includes sacro?
13:32<Gonozal_VIII>^^
13:32<peter__>meh
13:33<@Bjarni>last time I checked Sacro lacked write permission to openttd.org
13:34<dihedral>touch openttd.org workes for me :-P
13:35<peter__>Bjarni, crap, he's hacked it
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13:42<ln->19:45 < pv2b> ln-: what about savegames? <-- well.. generally you don't copy them out of the dir, so it could be Application Support.
13:42<ln->also you cannot open savegames directly from Finder
13:44<pv2b>ln-: well, depends who you are. you might want to bring savegames with you on a usb stick or email them. depends what your usage scenarios are
13:44<pv2b>and opening savegames from the finder should be relatively easy to do
13:46<pv2b>is this directory move t hing planned for 0.6?
13:46<pv2b>or for later versions?
13:46<dihedral>yes - but ~/Library/Application Support will confuse people more
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13:47<ln->eeexcellent
13:48<dihedral>pv2b not planned at all i think
13:48<@Bjarni>not planned at all but dihedral wants me to move it
13:48<dihedral>may i rephrase that
13:49<@Bjarni>and if it's moved then it's best that it's moved before it is ever released in a stable release
13:49<pv2b>i agree
13:49<@Bjarni>so if it's moved then it's planned for 0.6.0
13:49<dihedral>dihedral would appreciate it, if it were moved to ~/Library to 'blend in' a little more
13:49<dihedral>but in no way want's to 'request' anything :-)
13:49<ln->i vote for c:\openttd
13:49[~]Bjarni slaps ln-
13:49<@Bjarni>mac users only
13:49<Gonozal_VIII>pop up a window where you can select where to save stuff on first start?
13:49<pv2b>ln-: /C:\\OPENTTD
13:49[~]dihedral helps Bjarni with the slapping
13:49<pv2b>*<:D
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13:50<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: uh, no. annoying users is not a good idea.
13:50<@Bjarni>and.... if you claim something like that you aren't a mac user
13:50<@Bjarni>you could be a mac owner, but not a mac user
13:50<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: just default to ~/Documents/OpenTTD and actually remember where the user goes between sessions
13:50<ln->Gonozal_VIII: that's the most confusing solution of all.
13:51<pv2b>i had some files in another directory for some debug stuff and openttd wouldn't remember where i last opened stuff
13:51<pv2b>Bjarni: oh, btw, the old "free space" bug is still there in the latest 0.6.0-beta2 binary build
13:51<pv2b>Bjarni: (0 bytes free)
13:51<@Bjarni>only on 10.3.9
13:51<@Bjarni>(I hope)
13:51<pv2b>i'm on 10.4.9
13:51<Gonozal_VIII>most confusing... why?
13:51<pv2b>or not .9
13:51<pv2b>10.4.11
13:52<@Bjarni>PPC?
13:52<pv2b>ppc.
13:52<pv2b>oh
13:52<pv2b>never mind
13:52<ln->Gonozal_VIII: what would you answer to such popup?
13:52<pv2b>i lied... i launched the 0.5 by misteake
13:52<@Bjarni>...
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>select the path...
13:52<ln->Gonozal_VIII: which path?
13:53<pv2b>bbl. food.
13:53<pv2b>sorry for scaring you like that Bjarni *<:-)
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>where the cfg and savegames and so on should be saved...
13:53<ln->Gonozal_VIII: and what path would that be?
13:53<@Bjarni>pv2b: I wasn't scared on behalf of OpenTTD... I was scared that user stupidity had struck you as well
13:53<Gonozal_VIII>for me it would be the game dir
13:53<@Bjarni>turns out that was the case :(
13:54<ln->Gonozal_VIII: where is the game dir?
13:54<Gonozal_VIII>? that doesn't matter
13:54<@Bjarni>heh... two votes so far and they don't even agree
13:55<@Bjarni>no replies either
13:55<@Bjarni>so far it's useless :/
13:55[~]Bjarni gives it some more time
13:56<@Bjarni>bbl
13:56<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1198780108460.jpg
13:56<ln->Gonozal_VIII: why ask at all if it doesn't matter?
13:56|-|Ikarus-70 [~florian.s@p54843DFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:56<Ikarus-70>hi
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>:S
13:56<SmatZ>:-D
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13:57<Gonozal_VIII>E:\Spiele\OpenTTD\OpenTTD 11703 <-- well, that's the gamedir for me atm
13:57<SmatZ>4chan... the place where weird and scary people meet with sexual deviants :-p
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13:58<Ikarus-70>I am still suffering this 0.6.0 always looses connection problem
13:59<ln->have you seen a doctor about it?
13:59<Ikarus-70>I hope that the best doctor for it is here^^
13:59<Gonozal_VIII>the game could look in that dir for a textfile called path or something and if it doesn't exist ask the user for the path
13:59<hylje>llama
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14:00<ln->Gonozal_VIII: and that would be terribly confusing.
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>erm... why?
14:02<ln->does your web browser ask you where to save its settings?
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14:04<Gonozal_VIII>i don't care about where the browser saves its settings but i care where my savegames are
14:05<@Belugas>somehow, you can view ottd as a savegame browser ^_^
14:05<dihedral>:-P
14:06[~]Belugas wonders about usefullness of user-defined-save-space upon installation or first use or whatever
14:06<@Belugas>probably a sterile idea after all..
14:06<@Belugas>futile, at least...
14:07<dihedral>openttd.cfg section [misc] :-P
14:07<Gonozal_VIII>you can't save in the cfg where to save the cfg^^
14:07<@Belugas>[misc]... no way... garbage collection
14:10<SmatZ>:-D
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14:16<kyevan>ln-: Actually, many web browsers DO ask, or at least allow you to change it in the config pannels :P
14:16<pv2b>Bjarni: well, i am mostly a user, even if i code sometimes *<:-)
14:17<pv2b>kyevan: 1. firefox. 2.???
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14:18<Gonozal_VIII>what else would you need except firefox?
14:18<pv2b>i mean, what else lets you choose where to keep settings?
14:18<kyevan>Gonozal_VIII: A browser that can run more than ten minutes without leaking memory to the point of needing a reboot :P
14:18<pv2b>firefox has this annoying thing with lock files "omg my settings are locked please choose a profile" thing
14:18<Gonozal_VIII>that's been fixed years ago
14:19<pv2b>i mean, choosing firefox from the ages where that was neccessary to serve as an ideal for how openttd should work is just... no
14:19<kyevan>Also, Opera is closer in rendering to the mobile and embedded Opera varients, for obvious reasons.
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14:20<dihedral>[20:07] <Gonozal_VIII> you can't save in the cfg where to save the cfg^^ <--- that was the pun
14:20<pv2b>you can save where to save the cfg in the cfg
14:20<pv2b>you just have to ask the user on startup where the cfg is
14:23<dihedral>defeats the mentioned purpose
14:27<kyevan>But..
14:27<kyevan>Does it matter where the config is saved?
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>but!
14:27<kyevan>Telling it where to put the save files for games, by default, is more like letting you specify the defaut download directory.
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>it seems to matter for mac users (forum)
14:29<dihedral>[20:27] <Gonozal_VIII> but! <--- butt :-)
14:30<kyevan>You can't please mac users without driving everyone else crazy.
14:30<@Bjarni>damn
14:30<kyevan>Macs, and most of their users, are all about consitancy.
14:30<@Bjarni>how did you figure that out?
14:31<kyevan>It's a nice thing, really, unless you're trying to write software that works on more than just macs :P
14:31<@Belugas>[14:36] <kyevan> You can't please mac users without driving everyone else crazy. <--- yes you can. it's called compiler switchs (or something like that)
14:31<@Bjarni>this issue will not even affect other platforms
14:32<@Bjarni>it's about what to put in a string that only affects OSX
14:34<kyevan>Bjarni: Oh, and you want to keep a proper Aqua interface and somethign that works everywhere in sync? OpenTTD can get away with the built-in thing, because it's a game, but most things can't
14:35[~]Belugas thinks this whole conversation looks like some shed-painting stuff that Tron explained once...
14:36<@Belugas>ho... sorry... bike-shed-painting :D
14:37<peter__>HEY HEY HEY
14:37[~]peter__ ponders painting his bike shed
14:37<peter__>(except that it's wet and dark, but never mind)
14:37[~]Belugas is surprised! he does not remember seeen any bike shed on peter__'s garden ;)
14:38<@Belugas>-seeen +seeing
14:43<kyevan>Nothin's commin' past that door! Not hell, not water, not the letter G!
14:44|-|KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-212-155.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
14:46<@Bjarni>bike-shed painting?
14:47<@Bjarni>anyway I just posted this on the forum to settle the argument once and for all (I hope). I can live with any of the solutions if needed
14:48<@Bjarni>but I don't want people complaining all the time
14:50<pv2b>Bjarni: my opinion on the shade of the bike shed posted.
14:54<ln->http://www.ilkeryoldas.com/digg/flash.jpg
14:55<Gonozal_VIII>yay queen
14:56<Wolf01>looooooooool
14:56<pv2b>ln-: flash! ...aa-aaaaah!!!
14:56<pv2b>saviour of the universe!
14:56<pv2b>or something.
14:56|-|Zahl [~Zahl@p549F1BEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:57<pv2b>maybe wrong flash though.
14:57<peter__>there is only one flash
14:59<Gonozal_VIII>there's only one queen!
14:59<Gonozal_VIII>^^
14:59<peter__>best sound track ever, of course
14:59<Wolf01>[20:59:08] <Gonozal_VIII> there's only one queen! <- freddy mercury
15:00<pv2b>kyevan: also, you can satisfy mac users on the file plaacement front without driving anybody else. in fact, you could make everybody else very happy by following similar standards.
15:00<pv2b>kyevan: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=651103#p651103
15:02<@Bjarni>dihedral: now see what you started.... now according to the forum we should alter how the path stuff works on all platforms >_<
15:02<pavel1269>wow, i almost prayed for fix whats at r11697, i thought that was due to MSVS :))
15:03<dihedral>Bjarni: ill respond to it...
15:04[~]Bjarni is not in the mood for coding anything that complex
15:04<@Bjarni>and it's likely that I never will be
15:05<kyevan>pv2b: File placement is fairly easy, yes.
15:06<kyevan>Windows, <User Dir>/My Documents/<Program Name>, Unixes, ~/.<Program Name>, Macs have their library directory, which I forget the exact structure of, butanyway.
15:07<pv2b>yeah.
15:07<kyevan>UIs, though, and where data files go, not really.
15:07<pv2b>either way there is a seperation between user data and application data.
15:07<kyevan>You can't even please every unixer on application data :P
15:07<pv2b>bah. /usr/share and ~/.openttd *<;-)
15:07<pv2b>if they don't accept that they can diaf
15:08<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=35497&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
15:08<kyevan>pv2b: Oh? What if the data's not installed by the package manager, like in OTTD's case?
15:08<Gonozal_VIII>everything in the game dir on every os, discussion closed^^
15:08<kyevan>/usr/local/share/
15:08<pv2b>kyevan: well, that's waht i meant.
15:08<kyevan>Gonozal_VIII: That's horrible and evil and can not work.
15:08|-|skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A44EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:08<pv2b>kyevan: /usr/local/sharei f manual install, /usr/share if packaged install.
15:08|-|HerzogDeXtE1 [~dex@i59F7DAB5.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
15:09<kyevan>Package managers install to /usr/, nothing manualy goes there except in /usr/local/
15:09<Gonozal_VIII>[21:08:46] kyevan: Gonozal_VIII: That's horrible and evil and can not work. <-- so that's a yes then?
15:09<pv2b>i should investigate how hard it would be to hack together a patch to do what i suggest.
15:10<kyevan>And on OS X, that requires breaking the illusion that bundles are one file
15:10<pv2b>kyevan: nah
15:10<pv2b>kyevan: ~?/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD
15:10<kyevan>Eh, true
15:10<@Bjarni>this is just great
15:10<@Bjarni>now there is one vote on each option :s
15:10<kyevan>but don't put it in ~/ only, the generic files probably belong in the shared library :P
15:11<dihedral>i am against Application Support
15:11<pv2b>Bjarni: 1.5 on ~/L/AS
15:11<kyevan>Honestly, the best solution is have a list of paths it looks in :P
15:11<pv2b>hey, i think i know how this will end up. however whoever codes it makes it *<;-)
15:12<kyevan>For example, on OS X, in the bundel, in /Library/ somewhere, in the ~/Library/ equivelent
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>a text file named "path.txt" in the gamedir :-)
15:12<pv2b>kyevan: that's my suggestion i wrote on the forum too
15:12<@Bjarni>it already has a bunch of places to look for files. The question is where the game should place files
15:12<kyevan>Then define a sane override order :)
15:12<pv2b>Bjarni: maybe you could describe how it works now?
15:12<kyevan>Place it in the user's choice, of course >_>
15:13<kyevan>Defaulting to a position in the user directory somewhere.
15:13<pv2b>no. users should not be allowed to choose
15:13<pv2b>users are bloody idiots
15:13<kyevan>(Except on install, where it probably goes in the global thing)
15:14<kyevan>pv2b: If you can't choose, that makes things like running two servers or a server and a client in one user account nearly impossible
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15:14<pv2b>okay. true.
15:14<pv2b>so precede the search path with .
15:15<kyevan>Or give each install a prefix for autocreated files, and save to the same dir
15:15<kyevan>for example, foo_autosave01 and bar_autosave01
15:15<kyevan>defaulting to the empty string :P
15:15|-|HerzogDeXtEr [~dex@i59F7C065.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:16<dihedral>guys - it's just to make blend in a little more to more or less standard os x behavior
15:16<kyevan>Anyway, I'm just a user and occasional server op, not really a developer.
15:16<pv2b>kyevan: eh. no. that's just a poor reimplementation of directories
15:17<kyevan>C and ++ make my head hurt
15:17<pv2b>c++ can make anybody's head hurt if used in the right way.
15:17<kyevan>(C++ isn't any better than C, because it hadn't been incremented when it was returned :P)
15:17<dihedral>flamers...
15:17<pv2b>yeah if you think about it like that, C is actually better than C++
15:17<kyevan>Java's pretty horrible, but at least it's MOSTLY objects :P
15:17<LA[Lord]>I have got good new for 8bpp graphics replacement project...we've got Leppka's Water
15:17<pv2b>because C++ is being incremented, and C is already incremented by C++
15:17<Gonozal_VIII>java is cool
15:18<@Belugas>youhoyu!
15:18<pv2b>so C == C++ + 1
15:18[~]Belugas youhoued at LA[Lord] good news...
15:18<kyevan>pv2b: that's the same as ++C
15:18<kyevan>I think.
15:18<Gonozal_VIII>yay water
15:18[~]pv2b prefers laguages such as objective c and python.
15:18<@Belugas>Delphi!
15:18<LA[Lord]>Belugas, that means that you have to include BigBB's patch for missing shores
15:19<LA[Lord]>someday
15:19<kyevan>Belugas: Might as well go all the way and use Visual Basic.
15:19<@Belugas>no kidding... as if i was not aware of that, LA[Lord] ;)
15:19<pv2b>visual basic is just crap
15:19<pv2b>delphi is funny
15:19<Eddi|zuHause3>seems i presented my revolutionary concept in the wrong time...
15:19<pv2b>because of its obscurity and its actual relative noncrapness
15:19<@Belugas>Visual Basic is insanity
15:19<LA[Lord]>lol
15:20<pv2b>once you get past the fact that it's fucking pascal, i bet delphi isn't half bad actually
15:20<kyevan>Belugas: But if you're going to use a Windows-only tool, might as well use the one that puts money in MS's pockets directly.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>seems the channel is busy with irrelevant flamewars of programming languages
15:20<@Belugas>Delphi is my tool at work. and as a band sang a long time ago: "I Know What I Like"
15:20<Gonozal_VIII>oooh that link wasn't about the path thing
15:20<kyevan>Eddi|zuHause3: It's cold outside, the flamewars keep me toasty warm :)
15:21<@Belugas>pv2b, Delphi is the tool. The language is Object Pascal
15:21<@Belugas>And fucking is not how I would describe neither Pascal or its obejct flavor
15:21<@Belugas>by far not
15:21<Gonozal_VIII>prof says eiffel is best
15:21<pv2b>Belugas: delphi = gcc+emacs. object pascal = c++. right.
15:22<kyevan>Delphi's Windows-only, though, so it could be the best tool in the world and fail instantly
15:22<pv2b>Belugas: i didn't use "fucking" to say it was bad. just as an emphatical *<:-)
15:22<@Belugas>ho..
15:22<kyevan>Though I think there was a somewhat-working Free replacement.
15:22<pv2b>wasn't there something called Kylix?
15:22<@Belugas>american, aren't you, pv2b?
15:22<pv2b>which was basically delphi for linux? or did i misunderstood.
15:22<pv2b>Belugas: swedish.
15:23<@Belugas>fooled me :)
15:23<kyevan>Sure, but Kylix... didn't exactly work well.
15:23<kyevan>Ah, here it is
15:23<kyevan>http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/
15:24<kyevan>One thing I will say, is that Delphi is a fun word to say :P
15:24<pv2b>yeah, i've heard about fp. i just kinda... don't really care for pascal *<:-)
15:24<pv2b>i mean, it's not that pascal is bad, it's because it's different.
15:25<@Belugas>you should, if you want to have some good programming reflexes
15:25<kyevan>And yet you like Python?
15:25<@Belugas>i love the structure it imposes on you
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15:25<pv2b>i like python because it's actually pretty freeform
15:25[~]kyevan spent enough time in whitespace hell...
15:25<pv2b>once you get past the fact that you have to keep your indentation properly. (which you should do anyway in any language)
15:25<kyevan>I like Ruby though, which is fairly similar in many respects
15:25<kyevan>pv2b: Sure, I keep my indentation nice
15:26<kyevan>But you screw up in one place and python explode.
15:26<pv2b>ruby isn't half bad either. it's like perl and python's crazy japanese cousin.
15:26<pv2b>i like the way you can generate functions inline with the pipe syntax
15:26<pv2b>and actually use it all the time for creating your own iteration constructs. it's quite mad *<:-)
15:26<kyevan>Only crazy japanese cousins are unlikely for anyone who isn't japanese :P
15:27<dihedral>pvz: your answer in the forums is kinda missing the asked question
15:27<pv2b>dihedral: "where should the files be?" i think i answered that.
15:27<kyevan>Well, on your hard drive, DUH.
15:28<pv2b>kyevan: i have a flash based computer, you insentitive clod.
15:28<pv2b>(well, not really.)
15:28<@Bjarni><pv2b> Bjarni: maybe you could describe how it works now? <-- well... it has a lot of paths to check for files. Highest priority is files next to the bundle (think old style placement), then ~/Library/OpenTTD then inside the bundle. It looks in more locations that I can't remember, something like /usr/local... so it works with the default linux paths as well (I think... didn't check right now)
15:28<kyevan>s/hard drive/main storage device/
15:28<dihedral>ill explain in a sec
15:29<pv2b>Bjarni: that's pretty close to the system i suggest
15:29<pv2b>Bjarni: except screenshots->desktop and savegames->documents/openttd
15:29<kyevan>Yeh, those changes seem fairly maclike.
15:30<@Bjarni>except you tell that it should write in different dirs. Currently if there is a file called openttd.cfg next to the bundle it writes all files next to the bundle. If not then it writes all files in ~/Documents/OpenTTD
15:30<pv2b>Bjarni: symlinks *<:D
15:30<kyevan>(the ~/Library/ stuff is mostly "DO NOT TOUCH" for 99% of users, so it's not very good to make users look there)
15:30<@Bjarni>you want different default locations based on what files you want to save
15:30<@Bjarni>kyevan: that's why I picked Documents in the first place
15:30[~]pv2b actually came up with a sane solution to this which requires practially no code changes. symbolic links!
15:31<kyevan>Does HFS+ support symlinks, though?
15:31<pv2b>sure
15:31<kyevan>I think it does, but.
15:31<@Bjarni>yeah
15:31<@Bjarni>it's POSIX
15:31<kyevan>Has it always?
15:31<pv2b>the only thing slightly weird with HFS+ is that it's case-insensitive
15:31<pv2b>(but case-preserving)
15:31<pv2b>yeah, symlinks are pretty much a requirement for a sane unix system to work
15:31<kyevan>pv2b: I think that's switchable,a ctually.
15:31<@Bjarni>I can't recall OSX ever having links problems
15:32<pv2b>kyevan: i think it is, but then lots of crazy mac stuff brekas
15:32<pv2b>breaks
15:32<kyevan>But, if you do, Mac code breaks horribly.
15:32<kyevan>pv2b: Right :P
15:32[~]kyevan goes back to driving Gordon Freeman through college)
15:32<@Bjarni>you can actually select if your HFS+ should be case sensitive for some reason
15:33<@Bjarni>don't ask me why it's an option you have to select while formatting a drive....
15:33<kyevan>(I got The Sims 2: University for christmas, and somehow wound up creating a Gordon Freeman sim...)
15:33<pv2b>Bjarni: isn't ther esomething equiv to tune2fs?
15:33<@Bjarni>there is a lot of stuff available if you know it
15:34<kyevan>Has fuse been ported to OS X, by any chance?
15:34<pv2b>kyevan: yeah
15:34<SpComb>Python!
15:34<pv2b>Bjarni: oh, imagine if you take a case-sensitive volume, and make it case-insensitive
15:34<kyevan>I wish someone would port it to windows... I needs mah sshfs!)
15:34<pv2b>Bjarni: imagine if you have the two files "Lollerskates.txt" and "LOLLERSKATES.TXT" on it.
15:35<pv2b>Bjarni: stuff tends to break.
15:35<kyevan>pv2b: Then you need to go die
15:35<@Bjarni>yeah
15:35<kyevan>Having files that differ only in case is TERRIBLE practice, even on case-sensitive file systems :P
15:35<@Bjarni>having a file called LOLLERSKATES.TXT....
15:35<@Bjarni>geek :P
15:35<kyevan>That too :P
15:36<pv2b>i've seen some software that comes with a "makefile" and a "Makefile"
15:36<SpComb>oletettavas[B0(http://www.xkcd.com/353/)
15:36<SpComb>grawh
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>it could just attach (1) to the files like ff does when you download stuff with the same name
15:37<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: and break file extentions.
15:37<pv2b>and breaking other hardcoded paths.
15:37<pv2b>it's not trivial.
15:37<Gonozal_VIII>before the .
15:38<Gonozal_VIII>download.file and download(1).file
15:38|-||Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A47061.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:38<pv2b>that works as long as nothing has a hardcoded path to that.
15:39<@Bjarni>it's damn annoying to use something that can decide to avoid naming conflict by adding .1 without telling you
15:39<@Bjarni>I tried that once
15:39<@Bjarni>I ended up with .png and .png.1
15:40<@Bjarni>it didn't tell me in the first place but when I opened the newest file I opened an old one and was like "wtf"
15:40<@Bjarni>until I realised what had happened
15:40<@Bjarni>funny thing is that I had to remove the .1 before the app would accept the file again >_<
15:41<@Bjarni>now all free software is as good as OpenTTD
15:41<Gonozal_VIII>that's stupid^^
15:41<@Bjarni>yeah
15:41<@Bjarni>specially because it didn't tell me
15:41<@Bjarni>it just did this on it's own
15:42<@Bjarni>bbl
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>the (1) stuff also happens without telling but it doesn't change the filetype
15:42<pv2b>the big diff is that changing the filesystem might change some file deep in the system you don't even know about
15:43<Gonozal_VIII>it could generate a log of the resolved conflicts and open it after it's finished
15:44|-|lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
15:44<pv2b>true.
15:45<pv2b>not an insurmountable problem then. still not worth botherering with.
15:46|-|Deathmaker [~Miranda@dslb-082-083-181-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:48<LA[Lord]>it seems I've got a problem....I can't draw 8bpp stuff :(
15:49<Gonozal_VIII>why?
15:50<LA[Lord]>dunno, they don't come out nice...
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r11712 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r9315): Add more house string id ranges to MapGRFStringID so NewGRFs use the proper string ids.
15:50<@Belugas>you have to respect the pallette, LA[Lord]
15:50<@Belugas>very importnat
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>you have to change the magnification often
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>draw some pixel at 8x, go back to 1x and look at it, zoom back in...
15:51<LA[Lord]>nono I know that...I just don't know how to draw nice things...
15:51<@Belugas>ask skidd13 some lessons ;)
15:51<Gonozal_VIII>like i said... zoom around a lot
15:51<LA[Lord]>this should be a lighthouse
15:51<LA[Lord]>http://www.hot.ee/madisaasmae/ohoo.png
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>looks like a bottle^^
15:52|-|G [~njones@202-154-147-109.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined #openttd
15:52<LA[Lord]>lol
15:54[~]LA[Lord] looks around and sees that Skidd13 is online :P
15:54<skidd13>Hu? Whats up?
15:54<skidd13>looks like a bowling pin to me :D
15:54<LA[Lord]>:d
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>you can also draw it bigger, scale it down and fix everything that doesn't look right
15:55<LA[Lord]>Actually, I had something important to you skidd13 too...wait a mom, I'll try to remember
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>if it's easier for you to draw bigger stuff
15:55<@Belugas>search for some real lighthouses, scrutinize them, draw them by hand until you know how they are shaped/constructed
15:56<@Belugas>then pixelize your ideas :)
15:56<skidd13>The lightning is ok, but the color is IMO wrong.
15:56<skidd13>Belugas: That is not that easy ;)
15:57<@Belugas>ha... well... that's how i do my stuff
15:57<@Belugas>but ...
15:57<@Belugas>it maybe why i've not released anything :D
15:57<@Belugas>'cause it looks baaaaaad
15:58<LA[Lord]>ok skidd I found it... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=28573&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
15:59<LA[Lord]>I have a next idea for 8bpp replacement project..
15:59<LA[Lord]>but these graphics aen't all yours?
15:59<dihedral>oh my word - women talk too much on the phone
15:59<dihedral>na - drop the 'on the phone' part of that
16:01<SmatZ>Viewed 262213 times ]
16:01<SmatZ>wow
16:02<SmatZ>that's even more that 262144
16:02<Gonozal_VIII>^^
16:02<Gonozal_VIII>great observation
16:02<SmatZ>:-)
16:02<dihedral>pv2b: you were missing the point because it was generally about the folder 'OpenTTD' currently located in ~/Documents, and not about every single file in that folde
16:03<SmatZ>@base 10 2 262144
16:03<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 1000000000000000000
16:03<dihedral>\r
16:03<SmatZ>@base 10 2 262213
16:03<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 1000000000001000101
16:03<dihedral>"putting it in ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD is probably the best" <-- why on earth then vote for 'other' and write a 5 page comment that concludes to that?
16:05<Gonozal_VIII>you know all powers of 2?
16:05<dihedral>pv2b: the entire section "Other operating systems" can be ditched, because that is not of interest
16:05<dihedral>it was solely about os x
16:05<@Belugas>shhhhhh dihedral, calm down. the guy is entitled to tis opinion
16:05<dihedral>yes
16:05<dihedral>i am not getting at it
16:05<dihedral>i am simply explaining a statement i made earlier on
16:06<dihedral>[21:27] <dihedral> pvz: your answer in the forums is kinda missing the asked question
16:06<dihedral>just so it was not a statement thrown into the channel, but explained as to what i meant
16:09<pv2b>dihedral: i disagreed with the question which assumes everything *should* be in the same folder.
16:09<pv2b>dihedral: sometimes you simply can't answer a question directly. have you stopped beating your wife?
16:09<Gonozal_VIII>no
16:09<Gonozal_VIII>see, direct answer
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16:10<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: true, but the implications that raises can be unintentional.
16:10<dihedral>but you cut it down to one statement, which made clear (as far as i understood it) that ~/Library/Application Support/ was your choice for 'best' place
16:10<ln->Bjarni: is all the stuff inside the bundle now?
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16:10<pv2b>dihedral: 'best' place, but i don't think savegames and screenshots should go in there
16:11<dihedral>i stopped beating my wife - i started hitting my dog now
16:11<dihedral>nobody asked for the second part of that
16:11<dihedral>:-P
16:12<dihedral>ok - i am splitting hairs on that one
16:13<pv2b>so yeah, put everythign in application support, except for the savegames and the screenshots
16:13<pv2b>and make it look in the global library too
16:13<pv2b>and i'm happy *<:-)
16:14<dihedral>again - that was not the point of Bjarni's question :-P (yes - i know - you disagree with the entire question)
16:16<joosa_>I have something to say
16:16<joosa_>have a beer and relax
16:16<dihedral>i have something to say too
16:17[~]dihedral slaps joosa for trying to calm him down, where in fact he is calm and relaxed :-P
16:17<dihedral>nah - just kidding :-P
16:17<joosa_>:-D
16:17<dihedral>if dih uses smilies, he is relaxed
16:17<pv2b>also, i don't drink alcohol, you insensitive slod.
16:17<pv2b>*<;-)
16:18<joosa_>I love it when people include the nose in their smilies
16:18<dihedral>LOL
16:18<dihedral>:-------)
16:18<joosa_>:–––––D
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16:18<dihedral>:(THE NOSE)D
16:18<joosa_>but I'm too dunk to take part in the conversatoon in any other level but discussing the noses
16:18<joosa_>dunk indeed
16:20<pv2b>joosa_: it's a habit i picked up many yeaqrs ago
16:21<joosa_>yeaqrs ubdeed
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>^^
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>is there a drunk - english dictionary somewhere?
16:21<pv2b>ubdeed *<:D
16:21<pv2b>joosa_++
16:23<joosa_>nose
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16:23<pv2b>actually i don't use noses for *<:D, i use them for *<:-) etc though.
16:23<joosa_>:++)
16:24<pv2b>i should play some ttd. anyone want to come? *<:-)
16:25<joosa_>me too, but I have difficulties convincing my friends to play
16:25<peter__>that smiley is bloody stupid
16:26|-|joosa_ changed nick to joosa
16:26<pv2b>peter__: i disagree. it's perfectly festive.
16:26<joosa>:++) is not, however
16:26<pv2b>ah, all right.
16:26<pv2b>:++) makes little sense
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know what smiley it was supposed to be, i see a * and the rest converts to a guy with a magician hat
16:26<joosa>maybe the hat has a *
16:26<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: tip. the hat is red.
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>aaaah
16:27<peter__>fire capacitators!
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16:28<pv2b>but in order to play, i need ot find a a nice server to play on, and in that case i probably should at least make sure my simple server filterer utility is at least at a useable state
16:29<@Belugas>[16:31] <pv2b> peter__: i disagree. it's perfectly festive. <--- well.. now that you've told us... It reminded me more of a clown than a Santa ;)
16:29<pv2b>that's what you get for using lossy compression
16:30<pv2b>i thought you'd have picked up on it since tt-forums also has holiday smileys
16:30<Gonozal_VIII>and i don't see how the us guys connect santa with christmas
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16:30<pv2b>i'm from sweden. we have a similar tradition of "tomtar" which has merged into the same image as santa claus.
16:31<pv2b>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomte
16:31<Gonozal_VIII>those are underpants gnomes!
16:32|-|Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@81.171.98.107] has joined #openttd
16:32<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: except they actually have a workable business plan
16:32<peter__>Belugas, yeah, that's what i thought
16:33<@Belugas>heheh
16:33<Gonozal_VIII>1. protect children
16:33<Gonozal_VIII>2. ???
16:33<Gonozal_VIII>3. profit!
16:38<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, the ttdpatch wiki seems to be down...
16:38<+glx>try wiki2
16:38<dihedral>good night ladies
16:38<LA[Lord]>wiki2 is up
16:38[~]dihedral grins
16:38<Gonozal_VIII>night
16:38<Gonozal_VIII><-- not a lady
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>that reminds me of the simpsons, where homer joins the stonemasons
16:39<LA[Lord]>good night boys girls and dih
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>"and this is the real number for the emergency call"
16:39<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
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16:40<Gonozal_VIII>we do!
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16:43<@Belugas>time for me to go home. So good night everyone, if i do not come back
16:43<SmatZ>night Belugas
16:43<Gonozal_VIII>night
16:43<pv2b>nn Belugas
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17:15<Gonozal_VIII>trains on n24
17:16|-|Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>hovertrains :-)
17:17<pv2b>hovercraft on rails?
17:17<pv2b>what is the world coming to.
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>not really..
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>it's about a factory where they build wagons
17:18<pv2b>hovering wagons?
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>they move them around on hovering plates
17:18<pv2b>holy rail wagons on hovercraft batman.
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>^^
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>and now they talk about a 1:50 lego airport
17:19<pv2b>with hovercraft?
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>hoverplanes^^
17:20<pv2b>what a stupid idea
17:20<pv2b>why would anyone want a hovering airplane?
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>because!
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>hmm it could start/land on water without the higher friction
17:21<pv2b>uh..... yeah.
17:21<pv2b>got some news. flying boats were a flop.
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>i takes more power to start from water... but not if you hover above it^^
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>hoverplanes could land on water or on grass or asphalt or in the desert without problems :-)
17:24<pv2b>planes already land on grass and asphalt.
17:24<pv2b>without ahving to hover.
17:24<pv2b>in the air such a system would prolly just be dead weight
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>a heavy plane would sink into the ground on grass and break its landing gear
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>yay for hoverplanes!
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>it was your idea anyways ;-)
17:26<pv2b>so bring a sparel anding gear along. i bet it's lighter than making the fucker hover
17:26<pv2b>spare landing gear.
17:26<pv2b>or just d rop whatever you want to deliver on parachutes.
17:27<Gonozal_VIII>you have to land eventually
17:27<pv2b>you'll find a landing strip eventually.
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>yay for hoverplanes!
17:28<pv2b>no
17:28<pv2b>*<:D
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>they're cheating with the lego constructions
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>they use wires
17:29<pv2b>what cheaters.
17:34<LA[Lord]>ok
17:34<LA[Lord]>I completed another version of lighthouse
17:34<LA[Lord]>http://www.hot.ee/madisaasmae/ohoo.png
17:35<Gonozal_VIII>is that based on a real lighthouse?
17:35<LA[Lord]>no
17:35<LA[Lord]>should it?
17:35<pv2b>that looks... military
17:35<Gonozal_VIII>what's that blue stuff around the middle part?
17:35<pv2b>alien blood
17:36<pv2b>clearly.
17:36<LA[Lord]>windows, gonozal, they're called windows
17:36<Gonozal_VIII>hmm doesn't look like windows
17:36<pv2b>blue windows?
17:36<LA[Lord]>why not?
17:36<LA[Lord]>ye i know they suck
17:36<LA[Lord]>but I had to show whole buliding
17:37<LA[Lord]>coz I go to sleep now I think
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>looks mor like some blue flags that stick out of the wall
17:37<pv2b>or alien blood.
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>or alien blood
17:37<SmatZ>or steps
17:39<LA[Lord]>Anyway, I guess I can change the colours and do sth about those "windows". So wait for some time, I make this and then go to sleep
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>they just don't look like they are in the walls, it looks like something that sticks out
17:41<pv2b>clearly anti-alien spikes.
17:41<Gonozal_VIII>with alien blood on them ;-)
17:41<pv2b>yes.
17:42<pv2b>the red stuff on the bottom is human blood. remains from would be human intruders.
17:42<pv2b>if you look carefully you can see the skulls and bones.
17:42<pv2b>little white specks in a pool of red blood.
17:42<Gonozal_VIII>^^
17:43|-|thgerg1 [~Administr@dsl51B65D9A.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>and the green stuff around the base? different type of alien blood?
17:44<qball>ab-complex
17:45<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: no, that's just grass.
17:45<pv2b>grows pretty well since it's so fertilised.
17:45<LA[Lord]>it's called grass, gonozal, grass
17:45|-|thgergo [~Administr@dsl51B788DF.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>^^
17:45<LA[Lord]>with alien blood
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>yes i know.. grass grows very fast with blood on it
17:45<pv2b>it's not actually a light house either
17:45<pv2b>it's the ultimate anti alien death raay
17:46<pv2b>sending a bomber to blow up a ufo is so inefficient you see
17:46<LA[Lord]>Codename: Black Mesa West
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>i have some spots with very healthy grass around my house
17:46<pv2b>especially since they fly so slow in the new openttd version
17:46<pv2b>compared to other aircraft that is
17:47<pavel1269>23:46 <Gonozal_VIII> i have some spots with very healthy grass around my house --- around your hause ... like this: http://www.national-geographic.cz/images/ngcom/0805/bazina_1.jpg
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>what?
17:48<@Bjarni><ln-> Bjarni: is all the stuff inside the bundle now? <-- all the stuff we distribute and that's needed to make the game work (lng files, grf files and so on). The end user will still have to add files outside the bundle but upgrading is just replacing the bundle
17:48<@Bjarni>updating is just drag-n-drop what the user sees as a single file... couldn't be easier
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17:49<pavel1269>gn
17:49<@Bjarni>it can even execute directly from the dmg file but it would be silly to mount it each time you want to play ;)
17:49<Gonozal_VIII>night
17:49<ln->does the end user ever need to modify the stuff inside the bundle?
17:49<@Bjarni>no
17:49<@Bjarni>night pavel1269
17:49<qball>hmm
17:49|-|pavel1269 [~pavel.g@48.140.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit []
17:50<@Bjarni>the bundle is designed to make it as easy as possible for the user. Modifying files inside a bundle isn't a trivial thing (unless you know how bundles work) so it's designed in a way that you can but it's not intended to do so
17:51<pv2b>Bjarni: nice. i've alwayss been annoyed at how upgrading sucks
17:51<pv2b>you had to manually replacfe files and stuff
17:51<pv2b>and merge
17:52<pv2b>why is there still a media directory outside the bundle?
17:52<pv2b>and scenario/heightmap empty directories
17:52<@Bjarni>I got tired of people failing to upgrade correctly and then they showed up here telling that it failed to open
17:53<@Bjarni>you mean in the dmg file?
17:53<pv2b>yeha
17:53<pv2b>yeah.
17:54<@Bjarni>hmm
17:54<@Bjarni>we don't need the media file on OSX
17:54<@Bjarni>*files
17:55<@Bjarni>I guess they got introduced during the makefile rewrite
17:55<pv2b>and the scenario/heightmap stuff shouldn't be in that directory anyway
17:55<pv2b>it should be wherever you decide to put it
17:56<@Bjarni>I haven't figured out a good installer for the scenarios yet
17:56<pv2b>but the directory is empty anyway
17:56<pv2b>at least in the dmg
17:56<@Bjarni>that's because once again I forgot that the files aren't in the checkout and has to be added manually
17:57<@Bjarni>which is a pain to do :s
17:57<pv2b>ah.
17:57[~]Bjarni just got an idea
17:57<pv2b>stick them in the bundle and copy them to the user direcftory at runtime
17:57<@Bjarni>I could add adding those files to my new release script
17:58[~]Bjarni decides to do so
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17:59<LA[Lord]>ok..now can Bjarni too comment new alien blood stains @ www.hot.ee/madisaasmae/ohoo.png
17:59<LA[Lord]>I updated it :)
18:00<@Bjarni>looks.... different
18:00<pv2b>looks better.
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>yes better
18:00<pv2b>the base grass is still a bit mismatched
18:00<pv2b>what's the red stuff?
18:00<@Bjarni>blood
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>the windows look like they're in the wall now...
18:01<Gonozal_VIII>the concrete wall still looks very massive
18:01<LA[Lord]>it is stairs, gonozal, stairs
18:01<pv2b>of course, it's a military death ray.
18:01<Gonozal_VIII>stairs?
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't look like stairs at all
18:02<LA[Lord]>the former windows
18:02<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> doesn't look like stairs at all <-- they do to me
18:02<qball>if windows look odd, call them stairs
18:02<LA[Lord]>Gonozal_VIII> doesn't look like stairs at all that's because I can't draw
18:02<@Bjarni>then it's really good that you make grf files
18:03<Gonozal_VIII>ah the windows... must look closer for that
18:03<@Bjarni>they will blend in with the majority of grf files then
18:03[~]qball wants 32bit
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18:03[~]qball remembers playing openttd-32bit
18:04[~]LA[Lord] wonders why qball doesn't do it now
18:04[~]Bjarni recalls openttd-32bit to be faster than openttd-8bit
18:04<pv2b>what is openttd-32bit? *<:-)
18:04<LA[Lord]>32bpp
18:04<@Bjarni>OpenTTD with 32 bit graphics
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>wasn't when i tested it bjarni
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>much slower
18:04<@Bjarni>it wasn't playable though
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>with the optimized blitter
18:04<@Bjarni>but screen drawing was much faster
18:04<LA[Lord]>but it is now
18:05<Gonozal_VIII>sloooow
18:05<@Bjarni>but that was the old 32 bit graphics... work stopped on it and we started over
18:05<@Bjarni>I can't remember why
18:05<LA[Lord]>maybe because the pixel row error?
18:05<qball>it worked pretty good, and looked good, the parts that where 32bit
18:05<LA[Lord]>your blog says a lot of things
18:05<@Bjarni>I have a blog?
18:06<LA[Lord]>developers have
18:06<LA[Lord]>blog.openttd.org
18:06<LA[Lord]>although it seems only truelight used it
18:07<@Bjarni>that could explain why I didn't know it
18:07<@Bjarni>btw I lack a login for it :/
18:07<@Bjarni>so it's for sure not mine
18:08<LA[Lord]>I guess you can request a login...
18:08<LA[Lord]>you're a dev after all
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>i don't like blogs
18:08<LA[Lord]>and belugas has written too there
18:08<@Bjarni>TrueLight retired so now nobody writes in it anymore
18:08<@Bjarni>the question is if we should keep it
18:09<@Bjarni>last entry was written half a year ago
18:09<pv2b>yay. i get XML from game data.
18:09<pv2b>mostly valid. just need to make sure some strings are xml escaped.
18:11<LA[Lord]>ok..anyway, I go to sleep now
18:11<LA[Lord]>good night
18:11<Gonozal_VIII>32bpp tubular bridge looks glassy... i thought it was some kind of metal cage thing
18:11<Gonozal_VIII>night
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18:20<Gonozal_VIII>for some "is there a way to..." questions i just want to reply with "yes" :-)
18:25<@Bjarni>is there a way to learn how to pick up rich girls without too much hassle?
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>no :-)
18:25<@Bjarni>damn you :P
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35494
18:26<@Bjarni>at least your answer is trustworthy
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18:29<valhallasw>Gonozal_VIII: that is sooooo dalestan-ish :P
18:30<valhallasw>and Bjarni, check wikihow.com; they probably have an article about that
18:30<@Bjarni>but is it working?
18:31<@Bjarni>and can I be sure that her mafia father will not hunt me down afterwards?
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18:32<valhallasw>there's probably an article about that, too
18:32<Gonozal_VIII>you didn't say anything about not being killed afterwards
18:33<valhallasw>I mean
18:33<valhallasw>there's an article about "How to Pretend to Be a Girl"
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>can't be too hard, there are lots of "girls" on the intarweb
18:35[~]valhallasw points to Gonozal_VIII
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>:O how did you find out that i'm a young, rich, hot looking girl that only pretends to be poor and male :O
18:37<@Bjarni>http://www.wikihow.com/Drive-a-Steam-Locomotive <-- heh... that description can't be used to drive out locomotives :P
18:37<@Bjarni>*our
18:37<qball>Gonozal_VIII: drawing flames doesn't make you "hot looking"
18:38<@Bjarni>I like the warning... you are not allowed to use the info in the article as it would be not only dangerous, but also classified as theft and trespassing
18:39<@Bjarni>best article ever
18:39<@Bjarni>info is no good (here) and you aren't allowed to use the content of it
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18:43<@Bjarni>http://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Rich-Woman-to-Date <-- hahaha... there really is an article for it xD
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18:45<@Bjarni>warning: You might end up marrying a woman that you do not love. This is a good recipe for an unhappy life <--- hehe
18:47<@Bjarni>hahaha.... "How to Get Rich Easily"
18:47<@Bjarni>7. Receive a large inheritance.
18:47<@Bjarni>gee... I never would have figured that one out on my own :P
18:49<valhallasw>xD
18:50<Gonozal_VIII>Play the lottery with a group <-- so stupid
18:52<Gonozal_VIII>no matter if you play alone or in a group or whatever your chances are always the same
18:53<@Bjarni>I will not actually do what it says
18:53<@Bjarni>if there really was a web page telling how to get rich quickly without doing shit then everybody would be rich
18:53<@Bjarni>that's just not how it works
18:54<Gonozal_VIII>well...
18:54<Gonozal_VIII>[00:47:34] Bjarni: 7. Receive a large inheritance.
18:54<Gonozal_VIII>that works...
18:54<@Bjarni>yeah
18:55<@Bjarni>my granddad once inherited enough money to buy a new car.
18:55<@Bjarni>turned out that a relative who he had never heard about moved to USA and had died of old age without any children
18:55<Gonozal_VIII>from the guy in the usa you never even knew that he existed
18:55<@Bjarni>...
18:55<@Bjarni>I guess I told you guys before
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>yes you did
18:56<@Bjarni>congratulations
18:56<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: you passed the memory test
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>sometimes i remember stuff
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>at random
18:57<@Bjarni>how about remembering useful stuff?
18:57<Gonozal_VIII>that's not how it works
18:57<@Bjarni>I know
18:57<@Bjarni>so I just remember everything
18:57<@Bjarni>like....
18:57<@Bjarni>you are from the south
18:58<Gonozal_VIII>south?
18:58<Gonozal_VIII>depends on south of what^^
18:58<@Bjarni>you live south of me
18:58<Sacro>I'm jammin
18:58<@Bjarni>there are two groups of people in here
18:58<Sacro>and i hope you like jammin too
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18:58<Sacro>Bjarni: normal people and the dutch?
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>you're dutch and i'm austrian so yes... south...
18:59<@Bjarni>people living south of me and people who can read this: "hej med dig.... Jeg håber, at du kan læse dette"
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>there's not much north for you
18:59[~]Bjarni slaps Sacro
18:59<Sacro>sorry, danish
18:59<@Bjarni>NOW YOU MADE GONOZAL_VIII CONFUSE DANISH AND DUTCH AS WELL!!!!!!!!!!
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>sorry^^
19:00<@Bjarni>sorry?
19:00<@Bjarni>but I blame Sacro
19:00<@Bjarni>NL is to the south
19:00<@Bjarni>of me
19:00<Sacro>Bjarni used to be netherlandian
19:00<Sacro>:(
19:00<@Bjarni>no I didn't :P
19:01<Sacro>he was nice back then
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>dutch is nl :S
19:01<@Bjarni>you made that up
19:01<Sacro>but he moved to denmark
19:01<Sacro>and now is evil :(
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>that's strange
19:01<@Bjarni>The country's real name is "The Netherlands"
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>i know that
19:01<@Bjarni>we tend to call it "Holland" (which is only like 1/5 of the country)
19:02<@Bjarni>I don't know why the language is called Dutch though
19:02<Gonozal_VIII>holland and niederlande...
19:02<qball>holland?
19:02<@Bjarni>but I guess there is a historical link to Deutsch
19:02<qball>that's where the crazy dutch live
19:03<@Bjarni>yeah
19:03<@Bjarni>they use DC in their catenary
19:03<@Bjarni>so they have to be crazy
19:03<@Bjarni>but that goes for the rest of the Dutch as well :P
19:03<qball>atleast they don't have problems with blind-power
19:03<@Bjarni>blind-power?
19:04<qball>yes.. you get that with AC and imaginary impedance
19:04<@Bjarni>ahh... you mean when the power factor isn't 1
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>i thought dutch was for denmark.. fits better than netherlands
19:05<qball>also the next high-voltage power line under the sea from norway is going to be DC too.. DC->dc and DC->AC is good now
19:05<@Bjarni>so did the Czech translator
19:05<qball>don't need trafo's anymore
19:05<qball>anyway 1.5kV is crazy
19:05<@Bjarni>so yes I found an error in czech.txt
19:05<@Bjarni>we use 25 kV
19:05<qball>yet the crazy people manage the most trains/km rail
19:05<qball>in the world
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19:06<qball>25kV is more sane yes
19:06<Gonozal_VIII>i read somewhere that dc is better for long distance because of lower power loss percentage
19:06<qball>it is
19:06<@Bjarni>that's both correct and incorrect at the same time
19:07<@Bjarni>using an ideal line (copper without insulation) it shouldn't matter
19:07<qball>now that we can efficient transfor low voltage to high voltage
19:07<Gonozal_VIII>and they want to build large solar parks in africa and dc cables to supply europe with that power
19:07<qball>Bjarni: if the world was ideal..
19:07<@Bjarni>in reality there are always a bit of capacity and capacity is power loss for AC, but not DC
19:07<qball>why do you think your processor gets so darn hot
19:08<qball>parasites
19:08<@Bjarni>because for every clock pulse there is a short circuit
19:08<Gonozal_VIII>the processor gets hot when you look at too much p0rn
19:09<qball>you need to charge/uncharge all the parasite capacitances all the damn time
19:09<qball>at very high speed
19:10<qball>say every transistor has a 1pF capacitance, you need to charge/discharge every clock cycle (say 3.2 Ghz)
19:10<qball>do the math
19:10<@Bjarni>think of it like this: there is a pin and it can either have 0 V or 3,3 V. It has two transistors (one for each voltage). Now we have say 0 and we switch to 3,3. Because the transistors open a bit faster than they close they will have a very brief moment where both are open and you have a direct connection between 0V and 3,3V power supply (only though two transistors)
19:11<qball>aah no-perfect matching
19:11<qball>also fun
19:11<@Bjarni>yeah
19:11<@Bjarni>that actually matters more than capacity
19:11<qball>I dunno what is worse now-a-days
19:12<qball>I can imagine with voltage dropping and with smaller transistors
19:12<qball>the capacitances are less trouble some
19:12<qball>on the other hand
19:12<qball>your lines
19:12<qball>don't get shorter
19:13<qball>a well in a few years, we all use pig-brains in our computer
19:13<Gonozal_VIII>or human brains
19:13<@Bjarni>I read not long ago that somebody actually found a way to make the matching better and that the chip manufactures are investing in maturing the idea into a production stage. This would mean way lower power usage and way lower heat production and since the biggest issue for increasing CPU speed is the heat then it would mean faster CPUs
19:13|-|Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit [Quit: Zr40]
19:14<@Bjarni>and less noise from fans cooling the CPUs
19:14[~]Sacro hums
19:15<qball>would be nice for audio devices too.. cheaper high-quality amps
19:15<@Bjarni>I don't think it works that way
19:15<@Bjarni>it's based on chip design
19:15<qball>owh
19:15<qball>damn
19:15<Sacro>tum te tum
19:15<Sacro>Bjarni: how was your christmas?
19:15<@Bjarni>so it's only on very little scale
19:16<qball>because its one of the things that make good amps expensive, buying matched transistors
19:16<qball>for the push-pull
19:16<qball>still good matching is very very important in DA-AD converters
19:16<qball>so maby intel can make soundcards that go above 14bits
19:16<qball>stupid HDA things
19:16<@Bjarni>but if you use a digital amp then it might matter... however the digital part isn't the major heat producing part so I don't think it will matter much
19:17<qball>wasn't talking about heat here
19:17<@Bjarni>Sacro: <--- was?
19:17<@Bjarni>Christmas is more than just Christmas eve
19:17<qball>and digi amp is mostly juck.
19:17<qball>you need a bad-ass filter to get rid off high-frequenties
19:18<@Bjarni>many companies makes poor digital amps and it gives a bad name to the few who actually makes good ones
19:18<qball>there are good ones, but that aint cheap to build either
19:19<@Bjarni>I know
19:19<@Bjarni>but they are relatively small compared to what they can do
19:19<@Bjarni>smaller than analogue amps of the same quality
19:19<@Bjarni>and power
19:19<qball>yes
19:20<qball>80% efficientie, try that with analog
19:20<@Bjarni>I wouldn't even try
19:20<qball>well better matching of transister will make your class B more efficient.. but not even close
19:21<qball>anyway, night time is the right time
19:21<qball>for sleep
19:21<@Bjarni>the inventor of the real digital amp told that when they tested it on a record company one guy thought that he could hear an error on a specific place so they tried the same tape with a professional analogue amp and the error was gone.... not good
19:22<@Bjarni>turned out that there was an error on the tape but the analogue amp lacked precision to make it reach the speakers
19:22<qball>he lol
19:23<@Bjarni>he is actually a nice guy
19:23[~]qball still needs the room for electrostats.
19:23<qball>or how you spell that
19:23<@Bjarni>met him once
19:23<@Bjarni>at uni
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19:32<Gonozal_VIII>there are many copies
19:32<Gonozal_VIII>and they have a plan
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19:48<@Bjarni>huh?
19:48<@Bjarni>copies?
19:48<@Bjarni>plan?
19:48<@Bjarni>you plan to copy me?
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>not me
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>the cylons
19:49<@Bjarni>???
19:49<@Bjarni>are we speaking the same language?
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>battlestar galactica :-)
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19:51<@Bjarni>never seen it
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>you should
19:52<Wolf01>'night
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19:54<@Belugas>what kind of amps where you talking about?
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>winamp
19:55<@Belugas>i know, from live experience, that an all tube amp for guitar is far better than a transistor one
19:55<@Belugas>ho... winamp... no se
19:59<TX>hi all
19:59<TX>maybe anyone speaks russian?
20:00<@Bjarni>TX: there might be a fair change that you do ;)
20:01<@Bjarni> <Belugas> what kind of amps where you talking about? <-- different kinds... kind of like all kinds
20:01<TX>))
20:01<TX>can anyone help me?... my game lags on bigger maps, especially if i have a lot of objects or it hangs some times so much, that i even can't move my mouse cursore smothely
20:01<TX>is it ok?
20:02<@Bjarni>err
20:02<@Bjarni>considering you can't play like that then no
20:02<TX>99% cpu
20:02<@Bjarni>sounds like you play on a too big map for your CPU to handle
20:02<Gonozal_VIII>do you use ships?
20:03<TX>2048x2048
20:03<TX>I'm on making scenario
20:03<Gonozal_VIII>yapf pathfinder for ships can suck a lot of cpu
20:03<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm
20:03<Gonozal_VIII>no vehicles?
20:03<TX>but when I try to start it lugs
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20:03<@Bjarni>how fast is your CPU?
20:03<TX>just on starting
20:03<TX>celeron 2.7
20:03<Gonozal_VIII>99% cpu on 2048^2 without vehicles is strange
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20:04<TX>when I'm in edition scenario everything OK but when try to start this scenario I get 99%
20:04<@Bjarni>you shouldn't do that
20:05<@Bjarni>hmm
20:05<TX>I did random industries.. without them I get fast start with them - I get 99%
20:05<TX>ecs
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>aaah
20:05<@Bjarni>so you get this on a 2048x2048 map with no vehicles at all?
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>that's normal
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>industry generation with ecs takes very, very long
20:05<TX>just on starting 1920 I get cpu 99
20:06<TX>yes and it makes me a lot of them ))
20:06<@Bjarni>are you talking about map generation or actually playing?
20:06<TX>http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1525/screenshot5jb9.png
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20:06<Gonozal_VIII>you can read that?
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20:07<TX>when I tried to start playing I get 99% cpu when i'm editing scenario - ok
20:07<Gonozal_VIII>you have way too many industries there
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>but they are ecs, so most of them will close down soon anyways... keep on playing some more years and the game should become faster
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20:09<TX>ok even I remove them then playin I reach that amount of objects (with trains, vehicles) anâ 99% I get again some time later?
20:09<TX>any way
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>you can use a smaller map
20:09<TX>maybe there is any trics or graphic patch for this situation?
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>it's not the graphic's fault, it's all the background calculations
20:10<TX>??
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>the industries calculate their production, supply, closedown chance and things like that
20:12<Gonozal_VIII>and lots of random stuff going on with trees and in the cities
20:12<TX>hm.. so small game and requires so much of cpu ))
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>2048^2 is huge.. that's over 4 million tiles that have to be calculated about 30 times per second
20:14<TX>I guessed that's a common problem and everybody faces it someday and maybe it requies patch or new program engine with new algoritme?
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>just think about it... would you ever be able to connect everything on that map? do you really need so much?
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20:18<TX>hm.. so why appeared ability to create 2048*2 if it cannot be work properly.. ((
20:19<Gonozal_VIII>2048^2 works... with less industries and a fast computer
20:20<TX>ok thnx i'll try to remove some )
20:20<Gonozal_VIII>and people would complain if they couldn't make big maps... they're already complaining that 2048^2 is too small
20:20<TX>wanted to create huge usa map and play a long game )
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>but about the industry names and numbers... they seem to be too big and overlap.. can you read that?
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20:23<Gonozal_VIII>cu reticulum
20:26<Gonozal_VIII>font size seems to be wrong for the russian version
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20:27<Gonozal_VIII>and back...
20:28<TX>I didn't understand your question 'bout overlap
20:29<TX>http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9056/screenshot9lh2.png here now
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>the text in your screenshot
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>in the industry map
20:30<TX>))
20:30<TX>yep it is a problem cause a lot of industries
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20:31<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: nothing seems 'wrong' about the fontsize, he has just adjusted it in his openttd.cfg
20:31<Gonozal_VIII>ah, that's not the default, i see
20:34<TX>hm )) I removed 50 fishing from seas (in scenario) and already get 90%cpu (not 99)))) when started game
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>that's better
20:34<TX>i'm in right direction )
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>with ecs industries that are not serviced will close down after some years
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>they are protected for the first 5-10 years but after that most of them will close down
20:36<TX>)) cource 2048 map I cannot reach to all industries at once )
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20:37<Gonozal_VIII>that's not a problem, there will be new ones at random and you can connect them as they show up
20:37<TX>would be any problems to multiplay this scenario using server?
20:37<Gonozal_VIII>yes it would be
20:38<TX>((
20:38<Gonozal_VIII>if not all players can keep up with the speed there will be desyncs
20:38<Gonozal_VIII>and it's also a lot of data that has to be downloaded in order to join
20:39<TX>speed? connection?
20:39<Gonozal_VIII>cpu speed
20:39<TX>desyncs?
20:39<TX>discon?
20:39<Gonozal_VIII>if the game state is different on the server and a client, the client is out of sync and disconnects
20:40<Gonozal_VIII>that could happen if the cpu is not fast enough
20:40<TX>server's cpu or clients? or each?
20:41<Gonozal_VIII>each
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20:41<Gonozal_VIII>every cpu has to be able to run the game at the intended speed
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20:42<TX>and what happens when one has core2duo, other like me just celeron 2.7 ?
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>dual core doesn't help, openttd only uses one core
20:43<TX>mmm )
20:43<TX>so we'll be equal ))
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20:44<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: desyncs are NOT caused by too slow computers
20:44<Rubidium>desyncs will never be caused by too slow computers
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm
20:44<Rubidium>that the client gets disconnected is something completely different
20:44<+glx>but the too slow client will be kicked
20:44<+glx>that's all
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>ok, desync is the random seed stuff... but it doesn't really matter too slow cpu doesn't work
20:46<Rubidium>a desync only happens when the game state at frame X at the server differs from the game state at frame X at the clients, even though the clients might reach frame X seconds after several seconds
20:46<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: the problem is that too slow CPUs must not be intermingled with desyncs
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>ok sorry... forget what i said
20:47<Rubidium>because desyncs == bug in OpenTTD (or memory corruptions) and disconnects caused by a too slow computer are something we (OpenTTD developers) can do nothing about
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20:47<strstrep>glx: Is there anything I can still help you with on FS#1561 — desync when building primary industry?
20:48<@Bjarni>blaming disconnects caused by a too slow connection/computer on the developers would be like blaming a taxi driver for arriving late during a traffic jam
20:48<+glx>strstrep: I still fail to build openttd in pearpc (with OpenDarwin)
20:48<@Bjarni>he can't do shit about it
20:49<Gonozal_VIII>anyways, 2048^2 map on multiplayer could work... but only with fast pcs for all clients and i wouldn't do it because you could get problems when the game is the most fun and have to start over then
20:50<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: just put the slower as server
20:50<@Bjarni>generally big maps on their own shouldn't need more network traffic than small maps
20:50<Gonozal_VIII>then everything runs slow and laggy and not nice...
20:50<@Bjarni>but nobody will disconnect
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>i wasn't thinking about network traffic but about cpu usage
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>he runs at >90% cpu on a new map without vehicles, i wouldn't play multiplayer that way
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20:55<@Bjarni>I wouldn't play that way at all
20:55<@Bjarni>imagine what it will be like if 10% of the industries are connected by railroad
20:55<@Bjarni>anyway
20:56<@Bjarni>time for bed
20:56<@Bjarni>goodnight
20:56<Gonozal_VIII>on singleplayer you can switch on fast forward and the game will run slower^^
20:56<@Bjarni>huh?
20:56<@Bjarni>slower?
20:57<Gonozal_VIII>yes... i had that when cpu was at full load
20:57<Gonozal_VIII>fast forward... slower game
20:57<@Bjarni>the game runs a single loop and then waits for the time to pass to start the next loop. Fast Forward just skips the waiting time
20:57<@Bjarni>shouldn't slow down anything at all
20:58<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know... maybe it started the next loop before last was finished or something
20:58<TX>anyone remember since what year appears big airports?
20:58<@Bjarni>the game is single threaded
20:58<@Bjarni>no actions can overtake each other
20:58<@Bjarni>anyway I'm heading for bed
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20:59<Gonozal_VIII>no tx but a fast way to find out various introduction dates is to start a new singleplayer game and cheat the time up until what you're waiting for is available
21:00<TX>I just wanna know cause when I make scenario I make some place near the cities to place then airports
21:01<TX>))
21:01<strstrep>glx: Actually, you might be able to reproduce the problem on the same architecture with different optimization levels.
21:02<strstrep>glx: Or a different compiler: icc and gcc.
21:02<+glx>I have gcc and msvc
21:02<strstrep>glx: And it doesn't cause a desync between them?
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21:04<TX>what can cause this signs "??" http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5910/screenshot12hz0.png
21:05<+glx>grf conflict most likely
21:06<Gonozal_VIII>you've got lots of bridge grfs there
21:07<Gonozal_VIII>more isn't always better
21:08<TX>I don't know what to get from this grf to have bigger choice
21:08<TX>can U suggest yours?
21:09<Gonozal_VIII>mine...
21:09<Gonozal_VIII>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/OpenTTD/newgrf.htm
21:09<Gonozal_VIII>those are the grfs i use
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>only newbridgesW for bridges there
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>ah.. viaduct
21:15<+glx>strstrep: nice I can get desync locally \o/
21:15<SmatZ>glx: impressive
21:15<+glx>msvc release vs gcc debug level 3
21:16<TX>pb_bridg.grf bad?
21:16<SmatZ>glx: when you disassemble the code, are the calls to Random() in different order?
21:16<+glx>didn't check yet
21:16<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know tx
21:17<Gonozal_VIII>but the pb stuff is usually not bad
21:19<Gonozal_VIII>it took me a long time of experimenting to find the right combination of grfs that work together without problems and look good in my opinion
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21:37<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: btw. 3 quotes define a multi-line string, not a comment
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>what's the difference?
21:37<Eddi|zuHause2>strings are part of the resulting program
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>ah i see
21:37<Eddi|zuHause2>comments are stripped in the parsing phase
21:38<Eddi|zuHause2>if you look at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=35497&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
21:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i have provided an example file
21:38<Eddi|zuHause2>there i use a multi-line string for the GRF-description
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21:43<Gonozal_VIII>it's a good start
21:44<Gonozal_VIII>the huge ammont of keywords needs an interface
21:45<Gonozal_VIII>well... or a good documentation
21:46<Eddi|zuHause2>you have the file ;)
21:47<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. from a programming language point of view, only "class" is a reserved word, the others are all identifiers
21:47<Gonozal_VIII>i could probably write a java thingy that reads the .py file and extracts the keywords and hex stuff and generates buttons/tabs/dropdowns out of that..
21:48<Eddi|zuHause2>or you could write a python thingie that just imports the file and accesses...
21:48<Eddi|zuHause2>or you can use python bindings for java ;)
21:48<Gonozal_VIII>no because i can't pythonify^^
21:49<Eddi|zuHause2>java is bad anyway
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>but but but.. java...
21:50<Eddi|zuHause2>what's cool about python is the string-literals, list-literals and dictionary-literals
21:50<Gonozal_VIII>why is it bad? seems to be ideal for that task... doesn't need installation and runs everywhere
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>python is ideal for rapid prototyping
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>which is what i do here
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>java is really bloaty when it comes to "just write up a small script"
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>i only know java so i can't compare that
21:53<Gonozal_VIII>and i have no idea how to compile or use python
21:53<Eddi|zuHause2>download python, open a command line, run the command i wrote
21:54<Eddi|zuHause2>python is usually interpreted, not compiled
21:55|-|SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
22:01[~]kyevan laughs at the smashbros.com page on Kid Icarus music
22:01<kyevan>"In terms of music, I think the most memorable themes for players were the Grim Reaper theme and the Game Over theme." <- The former because the REapers are so annoying, the latter because you hear it so damn often >_>
22:01<kyevan>Eh, wrongchan, but still true
22:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i have no idea what this is about...
22:10<Gonozal_VIII>some game
22:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11713 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Move some declarations and definitions in a more logical disposition
22:34|-|G [~njones@202-154-147-109.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined #openttd
22:45<@Belugas>is it possible to start a game by loading a scenario in console mode?
22:46<+glx>openttd -g
22:47<kyevan>openttd needs a nethack renderer :P
22:48<@Belugas>no, sorry... i mean in ottd, in the consol mode, the ~ state
22:48<@Belugas>a command stuff...
22:48|-|Sogard [~Sogard@ip68-98-68-156.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong]
22:48<+glx>load should do it IIRC
22:48<@Belugas>ok
22:49<@Belugas>and -g only load games, cannot load scenarios, right?
22:50<@Belugas>"load" command does not seems to be able to load a scenario
22:50<Gonozal_VIII>rename it
22:50<@Belugas>that's nice :)
22:53<kyevan>I want scripted scenarios
22:53<kyevan>So disasters and other events can occur at whatever random times are needed.
22:54<Gonozal_VIII>sounds like an addition to noai branch
22:54<+glx>-g can load everything
22:54<+glx>try openttd -g data/opntitle.dat
22:55<kyevan>openttd -g /dev/urandom
22:55<+glx>not a valid "savegame"
22:56<Gonozal_VIII>could be^^
22:56|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:56<kyevan>glx: It's random, it could be :P
22:56|-|Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
22:57<Eddi|zuHause>err... what was that...
22:57<@Belugas>:(
22:57<Gonozal_VIII>[04:56:06] *** Eddi|zuHause2 has signed off IRC (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, my x server crashed
23:00|-|Tino|Home [~Tino@i59F5452F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
23:01<kyevan>They do that disturbingly often
23:01<@Belugas>i cannot handle -g :(
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>my x rarely crashes...
23:03<kyevan>Sure, but take a sample of 50 random users, you're going to get at least 1 or two crashes a day.
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>that equals one crash every 50 days, so that is not really often...
23:05<kyevan>For such a centeral bit of software, it feels like it is.
23:05<kyevan>Then again, on windows, you get more. I dunno why you feel like it should be less on unixoids running x, but it does
23:07|-|TinoM| [~Tino@i59F56AE8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:11|-|glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11714 /trunk/src/ (fios.h misc_gui.cpp network/network_gui.cpp openttd.cpp):
23:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix[FS#1569]: Do not allow player inauguration date on scenarios to be bigger than current year.
23:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: This will not (yet) be true if you are loading a scenario with the "-g" command line option.
23:25[~]Belugas goes to sleep
23:25[~]Belugas is tired
23:25<Gonozal_VIII>me too
23:25<Gonozal_VIII>night
23:26<Gonozal_VIII>(me too for the tired thing)
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>but... it's not even 5:30 AM
23:26<Gonozal_VIII>i'm not going to sleep yet
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://xkcd.com/361/
23:27<Gonozal_VIII>yay xkcd
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>this one is so great :p
23:27<Gonozal_VIII>one of the best comics i know
23:30<murray>^^
---Logclosed Fri Dec 28 00:00:22 2007