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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-12-29

---Logopened Sat Dec 29 00:00:23 2007
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00:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r11718 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (cocoa_v.h fullscreen.mm wnd_quartz.mm wnd_quickdraw.mm): -Fix [FS#1483]: Show the fullscreen modes available to the cocoa driver in windowed mode too.
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01:29<shodan>no off-topic youtube links? :(
01:29<shodan>someone start up a conversation on Knights so we can watch Monty Python!
01:29<Gonozal_VIII>ni!
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04:02<laz0r>are openttd savegames version independent?
04:02<Gonozal_VIII>no
04:03<laz0r>ok
04:03<Gonozal_VIII>but you can open old games with new versions
04:03<laz0r>is there a binary tarball of the latest beta somewhere?
04:04<laz0r>on the download page there is only a .deb linked, which i installed, but i would like to have both versions (stable and beta)
04:05<laz0r>so, there is probably a way to make a tarball out of the deb, but just a tarball would be nicer
04:05<Gonozal_VIII>scroll down a bit..
04:06<laz0r>oh, now i see it
04:06<laz0r>ok, wait, no
04:06<laz0r>it still gets me to the sf.net download page, and there are source tarballs, bit no binary tarballs
04:07<Gonozal_VIII>what os?
04:07<laz0r>ubuntu
04:08<Gonozal_VIII>hmm i don't know
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04:09<Rubidium_>laz0r: dpkg --unpack --root=<something not /> maybe?
04:09<laz0r>well, ok
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04:09<Burgundavia>laz0r: there is a debian package
04:09<Burgundavia>I am using it right now
04:09<Burgundavia>on ubuntu
04:10|-|Draakon [~chatzilla@88-196-109-2-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd
04:10<Draakon>hello guys
04:10<laz0r>Rubidium_, i did that, although without the --root option, and it did some apt magic that caused apt-get to install stuff
04:10<laz0r>so, after that, 0.5.3 was gone
04:10<Burgundavia>laz0r: oh, you want to do that, umm, right, apt was not design to do that
04:11<Burgundavia>you risk seriously screwing your machine
04:11<laz0r>well, i think i got it under control
04:11<laz0r>still, i would just like to unpack the thing into a directory, and start openttd from there
04:11<Draakon>can anybody explain what is ECS Vehicles Alpha 1 newgrf?
04:11<Gonozal_VIII>you don't really need 0.5.3 anyways imho, the beta (even the nightlies) are very stable
04:12<laz0r>i need 0.5.3 to continue my old games
04:12<laz0r>the latest beta does in fact load them, but then mysterious things are happing
04:13<laz0r>actually im just getting a desync error because im always starting a server and then just join it myself
04:13<laz0r>so, not so mysterious
04:13<Gonozal_VIII>"A temporary grf that allows AI to use Default trains for new cargos. Incompatible with all the train sets except very old temperate and arctic sets. Released for test issue only. Does not support maglev or monorail. Made by Michael Blunck, Wile E. Coyote, George."
04:15<Gonozal_VIII>you don't really need that draakon, many vehicle sets support ecs
04:15<Draakon>many vehicle sets dont have maglev
04:16<Gonozal_VIII>dbset xl has maglev
04:17<Draakon>only for pax
04:17<Gonozal_VIII>that's what maglevs are for
04:18<Draakon>still i like maglev that deliver cargo too
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04:20<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think there's a grf that has that
04:20<Gonozal_VIII>you could mess around with the transrapid wagons to make them refittable to other things
04:21<Draakon>by nfo coding which i dont know how
04:23<Gonozal_VIII>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs
04:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11719 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split sound.h in a header with types and one with functions.
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04:45<Wolf01>hello
04:45<Gonozal_VIII>hi
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05:08<Gonozal_VIII>night
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05:14<pavel1269>hi
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07:39<Wolf01>i have a .bat file, is possible to add an Id svn keyword to it?
07:40<Wolf01>like rem $Id:$
07:40<Eddi|zuHause2>err... without : i believe
07:40<@Bjarni>remove the :
07:41<@Bjarni>it breaks the windows svn client while it works from the CLI based svn client
07:41<Wolf01>uh, i always used the : and worked
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07:42<@Bjarni>also you need to svn propset the file to ID
07:42<@Bjarni>well
07:42<@Bjarni>I once got flamed for breaking windows checkout due to adding this char
07:43<peter__>$Id$ is the tag, anything between d and $ is replaced by the content
07:43<Wolf01>the eol style is CRLF for bat, or native works well?
07:43<peter__>well
07:46<valhallasw>native is safe; but I suspect no-one would use batch files on LF-based systems anyway ;)
07:46<Wolf01>eheh
07:47<valhallasw>it still sucks SVN does not support forcing properties like svn:keywords and svn:eol-style
07:47<@Bjarni>valhallasw: never underestimate user stupidity
07:47<peter__>what do you mean by forcing?
07:47<@Bjarni>besides it might be a good idea to allow the rest of us to edit the file without this issue
07:48<valhallasw>peter__: well. technically it's possible to write a precommit hook that disallows commits that do not have those properties
07:48<valhallasw>but still...
07:49<peter__>you can set up your svn config to automatically apply properties to new files
07:50<valhallasw>yes... locally and for all repositories you edit
07:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you can edit each repository with a different user ;)
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08:11<pavel1269>i like some comments :)
08:11<pavel1269>"/// @todo WTF is this???"
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08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>there are better ones
08:20<Eddi|zuHause2>like there was a comment: "TODO: doesn't work <-- WHAT doesn't work?"
08:20<roboboy>gnight
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08:33<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: in pathfinder, yes? :)
08:33<Eddi|zuHause2>no, i think it was in the bridge branch
08:34<SmatZ>pathfind.cpp : 323
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08:47<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i'm pretty sure it was introduced by the bridge branch ;)
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09:13<Hendikins>Adelaide Metro plans their service changes well in advance: http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/ttsearch.php?action=search&searchtext=218F&js=1
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09:17<reto>heya
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09:20<reto>can anybody give me some hints about how to import openttd into xcode?
09:20<AKiS>hi everyone
09:21<pavel1269>hi
09:21<AKiS>knows anybody why i don't receive a mail when i try to register at bugs.openttd.org?
09:22<+glx>check in junk
09:23<AKiS>bulk?
09:24<+glx>yes it may have been detected as spam
09:24<AKiS>it's not in bulk
09:25<AKiS>and it's not in inbox
09:26<AKiS>and i retried to register and nothing ...
09:28<reto>it worked for me on 25th december
09:28<reto>sender was mihamix@openttd.org
09:28<reto>subject was Notice from Flyspray
09:28<reto>create a trash account on fastmail.fm and try it there :)
09:28<AKiS>let me try again
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09:29<peter__>invariably feedback is required, so trash accounts are pretty pointless
09:29<AKiS>nope
09:29<reto>well, no trash account :) creat another mail account on fastmail.fm then :)
09:29<reto>and trash it after some time :)
09:30<AKiS>i see "Your confirmation code has been sent. Please follow the instructions contained in the message." but I still don't receive no mail
09:30<reto>AKiS: if you like I can send you a mail to rule out any problems on your side
09:30<reto>(in a query)
09:30<AKiS>ok
09:31<AKiS>i only have to report a bug
09:31<reto>hmm.. yeah
09:32<AKiS>but i can't register to send them the crash
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09:41<@Bjarni><reto> can anybody give me some hints about how to import openttd into xcode? <-- not really as it stopped working
09:42<@Bjarni>I usually just open the individual files in Xcode and use terminal to compile/debug
09:42<reto>Bjarni: hmm.. so what would you recommend to work on the code on os x?
09:42<@Bjarni>works just fine
09:42<reto>alright
09:42<reto>have you tried Eclipse's CDT?
09:42<@Bjarni>no
09:42<@Bjarni>I plan to
09:42<@Bjarni>eventually
09:43<reto>hmm.. I think I'm gonna play with the code using textmate and the terminal
09:43<reto>for now.. otherwise I'm gonna lose a lot of tim ejust getting things running
09:43<@Bjarni>when people requested an Xcode project file and even showed up with one then I added it. The idea was that it read the makefile so file updating wasn't needed
09:43<@Bjarni>this broke when we switched to C++
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09:43<@Bjarni>and nobody bothered to repair it
09:43<@Bjarni>looks like only a very few people even used it
09:43<reto>I'm not a xcde user..
09:44<@Bjarni>the makefile always works
09:44<reto>well.. I wish it would be as easy as wwith java
09:44<reto>eclipse is really awesome :)
09:44<@Bjarni>that's what I'm told
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09:46<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind an Xcode project file that works with the project generator script. Sadly the project file has some numbers that I haven't figured out how to create. All the info I found is that they are leftovers from some old system and all that we should think about is "do not touch and it will work"
09:46<@Bjarni>meaning you have to use Xcode to generate those numbers
09:46<@Bjarni>not the shell script
09:47<@Bjarni>and I don't want to do that every time somebody else adds or removes a file
09:47<reto>yeah sure
09:47<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind if you figured this out though but I guess it would take a while
09:47<@Bjarni>and it's not important
09:48<reto>Bjarni, can you give me a hint where the budget screen code is located.
09:48<reto>no, I'm not a xcode user..
09:48<reto>I just sounded obvious to use it, but I don't mind using something else
09:48<@Bjarni>ok
09:48<@Bjarni>good
09:50<@Bjarni>src/player_gui.cpp <-- I think this one is the one you are looking for
09:50<@Bjarni>however I didn't read all of it to be sure ;)
09:50<reto>easy! thanks
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09:58<@orudge>Heh, two years ago on tt-forums, 57.7% of hits were from IE, 28.7% from Firefox. Now it's 45.2% Firefox, 40.%% IE
09:58<@orudge>Opera is the next highest, gone up from around 7% to 8% in two years
10:00<|Jeroen|>thats a pretty high ff ratio
10:00<|Jeroen|>must be because of all the linux users
10:00<@Bjarni>either that or IE sucks
10:00<@Bjarni>or both :D
10:01<|Jeroen|>well both are true
10:01<@orudge>well
10:01<@orudge>Windows accounts for 88.6% of hits this month
10:01<@orudge>7.1% Linux
10:01<@orudge>2.8% Macintosh
10:02<@orudge>0.1% OS/2 (nearly 10,000 hits)
10:02<@Bjarni>you can't divide it into each subsection?
10:02<@orudge>in December 2005, it was 91.3% Windows, 3.5% Linux, 1.5% Macintosh
10:02<@orudge>and 1% OS/2
10:02<@Bjarni>I pretty sure that the OpenTTD subforums gets more hits than the patch subforums
10:02<@orudge>(81,000 hits :o)
10:02[~]orudge wonders how come there were so many hits for OS/2
10:03<@orudge>3.4% of searches (as in google/whatever searches) were for "openttd" in 2005, 6.1% in 2007
10:04<@orudge>still in 3rd place as far as keywords, for both years
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10:04<@orudge>"transport", "tycoon", "openttd" are the top three search keywords that got people here
10:04<@Bjarni>openttd is the 3rd most searched word on google???
10:04<@orudge>can't split it into specific forums or categories though, Bjarni
10:04<@orudge>Bjarni: no
10:04<@orudge>it's the 3rd most searched word that got people to the forums :p
10:04<@Bjarni>I would be really surprised if that were the case
10:04<@orudge>from google or other search engines
10:05<@Bjarni>ahh
10:05<@Bjarni>makes a difference :)
10:05<@Bjarni>is TTDpatch even searched for?
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10:07<@orudge>Bjarni: further down the list
10:07<@orudge>a lot further :p
10:07<@orudge>"locomotion" and "download" are ahead of it
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10:24<LA[lord]>hey
10:24<peter__>hey
10:24<murray>hey
10:25<LA[lord]>is Belugas somewhere here?
10:25<peter__>does it look like it?
10:25<reto>hmm.. where are the commands to the game engine processed?
10:25<LA[lord]>well, he's online..
10:26<reto>I'm looking for the places where CMD_BUY_SHARE_IN_COMPANY is used, but I can only find the definition and the gui action
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10:27<reto>ah, there's a mapping
10:27<peter__>CmdBuyShareInCompany(), most likely
10:27<reto>yap, just found that
10:27<pv2b>./src/command.cpp: {CmdBuyShareInCompany, 0}, /* 74, CMD_BUY_SHARE_IN_COMPANY */
10:32<reto>there's a maximum of 8 players, right? :)
10:32<reto> bankrupt_asked; ///< which players were asked about buying it? <-- :)
10:32<reto>oh
10:32<reto>byte bankrupt_asked; ///< which players were asked about buying it? <-- :)
10:33<pv2b>yeah, it would seem so
10:33<peter__>yes
10:33<pv2b>(so *that*'s where the 8 player limit comes from, among other things)
10:34<reto>well.. I'm usually a java guy.. so I was wondering 'huuh.. shoudln't that be a list.. wait.. ah yes.. byte' :)
10:34<peter__>pv2b, all over the place, yes
10:35<peter__>hence the simple patches to change it are generally broken :o
10:35<pv2b>could probably be made a nonfactor with the judicious use of some typedefs
10:35<pv2b>typedef byte player_bitfield; //< change as needed
10:36<pv2b>then, if more than 64 players are ever used, use the fact that it's fucking c++ and drop in a class without asking *<;-) operator overloading ftw
10:36<peter__>heh
10:36<peter__>yes, could be done. are you supplying a patch? ;)
10:36<reto>why using a bitfeld at all :) in this case a list/array would be reasonable as well
10:37<pv2b>i'm fine with 8 players.
10:37<pv2b>reto: because the people who write openttd like tight data structures
10:37<reto>pv2b: :)
10:37<pv2b>take a look at the struct that stores map data for instane
10:38<pv2b>it's legitimate there since you have millions of those in memory at any given time
10:38<reto>yeah yeah, don't take me to seriousyl :)
10:38<reto>I'm java-spoiled
10:38<pv2b>you can do integer bitfields in java too *<;-)
10:38<reto>well, there's a BitSet class
10:38<reto>:)
10:39<pv2b>lol. a class for bitfields.
10:39<reto>well, thats probably a bad example
10:39<pv2b>the pic instruction set for 8-bit microcontrollers contain *instructions* for bit manipulation.
10:40<reto>p.bankrupt_asked.isIncluded(anotherPlayer) wouldn't be that bad, would it?
10:40<pv2b>you mean if anotherPlayer in p.bankrupt_adked:
10:40<pv2b>s/adked/asked/
10:40<reto>yes
10:40<reto>hmm.. lemme think, .. I guess thats easy with a normal bit feld already
10:40<pv2b>i mean, sure, in that case it's prolly not a big deal.
10:41<pv2b>it's not a repeating structure
10:41<pv2b>at least not millions of times like a map tile
10:41<reto>p.brankupt_asked && anotherPlayer.id it would be something liek that?
10:41<reto>like
10:41<pv2b>more like p.bankrupt_asked & (1 << anotherPlayer.id)
10:41<reto>ah right
10:41<reto>well.. with stuff like that it starts imho :(
10:42<reto>never mind )
10:42<pv2b>#define BIT_IS_SET(f,b) ((f)&(1<<(b)))
10:43<pv2b>#define BIT_SET(f,b) ((f) |= (1<<b))
10:43<pv2b>#define BIT_CLEAR(f,b) ((f) &= ~(1<<b))
10:43<pv2b>that should satisfy any quiche eaters in the room.
10:43<reto>for (Player p : p.bankrupt_asked.getPlayersNotSetYet()) {
10:43<reto>:)
10:43<pv2b>oh, s/b/(b)/ on the last two lines
10:44<reto>unsweetened custard pie usually having a savory filling (as spinach, mushrooms, or ham) lol
10:48<pv2b>in fact, on a pic, the bit test instruction pair (btfss and btfsc) is the only conditional jump available.
10:48<pv2b>conditional branch rather
10:53<reto>hmm..
10:53<pv2b>other than interrupts of course
10:53<pv2b>and resets
10:53<reto>whas hmming about the share holding code, sorry :)
10:54<reto>hey there's even a such a class :)
10:54<reto>PlayerByte* b = p->share_owners;
10:55<pv2b>reto: just curious, what are you trying to do?
10:55<pv2b>reto: hmmm? and it's not used in that place? sounds like a bug
10:55<reto>pv2b: well.. I'm about to ask anyway
10:55<reto>general idea: adding owned stocks to the company value
10:55<reto>which would make the whole stock think a bit more realistic
10:56<pv2b>how does that work anyway
10:56<reto>in openttd?
10:56<pv2b>if you own 75% of a company that owns 75% of another company?
10:56<pv2b>in real life
10:56<reto>thats the point
10:56<reto>:)
10:56<reto>well
10:56<pv2b>if company A owns 75% of company B that then buys 75% of company A
10:56<pv2b>confusing
10:56<reto>well you also own 75% of these 75% procent
10:57<reto>yeah
10:57<pv2b>and of those 75% of 75% percent, you own 75%?
10:57<reto>then it gets really confusing
10:57<reto>wlel
10:57<reto>pv2b: what happens if a company buys it owns shares?
10:58<reto>pv2b: like a company has 100 stocks each worht $1
10:58<pv2b>i'm not an economist.
10:58<reto>pv2b: let's say the company can convince the owner of of 50 shares to sell the share for one doller
10:59<reto>pv2b: the company pays back the capital
10:59<pv2b>ahh. right.
10:59<pv2b>of course.
10:59<reto>pv2b: therefore the company only has $50 capital
11:00<pv2b>so that company doesn't actually "own" those shares any more
11:00<reto>pv2b: 50 shares are destroeyd
11:00<pv2b>it just destroys them
11:00<pv2b>and can print as many new shares it wants any time
11:00<reto>the company == the other 50 share holders
11:00<reto>they gain 1 dollar each
11:00<reto>the whole system even makes sense :)
11:00<reto>but anyway... openttd doesn't have a realistic stock system anyway
11:00<pv2b>yeah
11:00<pv2b>companies should be owned by players
11:01<pv2b>not by companies
11:01<reto>yeah, and they would never sell their shares :)
11:01<pv2b>kinda how it works in railroad tycoon
11:01<pv2b>there you have your own personal economy as well as the company economy
11:01<reto>but in my opinion it would make the current system a bit more realisitc
11:01<pv2b>at least it'd prevent abuse
11:01<reto>wouldn't it?
11:01<pv2b>money appearing from thin air
11:02<reto>gonna get a coffee
11:02<reto>caluclating the company value is no big deal, already found that function..
11:02<pv2b>so add share%*othercompanyvalue to that
11:02<reto>exactly
11:02<reto>and hope that there are no recurrsions :)
11:02<pv2b>but then you get what you'd call a circular reference
11:02<reto>exactly! :)
11:02<reto>afk for a sec
11:03<reto>it should be company-value (excluding shares of my own cmompany9
11:03<reto>right?
11:03<reto>btw, that was the reason for the 'hmmm' :)
11:03<pv2b>hmm. no *<:-)
11:03<pv2b>that doesn't work either
11:03<pv2b>oh wait, it does
11:04<pv2b>this system makes my head hurt
11:04<pv2b>i think you need to put up a spreadsheet to mess around in
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11:06<reto>I will think about it, right
11:18<pv2b>reto: just excluding shares of own company isn't enough to eliminate a circular reference
11:19<reto>no
11:19<reto>it isnt
11:19<pv2b>because wen you make a profit, the other company's value goes up, causing your company value to go up....
11:20<reto>and what about a owns b, b owns c, c owns b
11:20<reto>recursive again
11:20<reto>well.. circular, not recursive
11:20<pv2b>c owns a you mean
11:20<reto>no
11:20<reto>well, that's another problem
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11:20<pv2b>a, ok
11:20<peter__>if players own a company, what happens when a player leaves an MP game?
11:21<pv2b>peter__: more specific please
11:21<thomas001>hi,is it possible to tell a helicopter not to pick up post?
11:21<reto>well, what happens with the trains etc?
11:21<pv2b>thomas001: i don't think so
11:22<reto>thomas001: try the following thing: select refit, and select passenger, and press 'refit' I think this will remove the post
11:22<reto>thomas001: it's a bit confusing because it says rfefitting cost: $0
11:22<thomas001>thx,i'll try
11:22<pv2b>peter__: they are sold
11:23<pv2b>liquidated
11:23<reto>well.. I'd sell everything and return the shares to the owner
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11:23<reto>but I guess thats a bit complicated
11:23<reto>but I don't mind changing not a bit :)
11:23<peter__>who's the owner?
11:23<reto>therefore = the company value goes down
11:23<peter__>the player just left...
11:23<reto>no, owners of shares of the player just left
11:24<pv2b>unless autoclean is on the companys ticks around
11:24<pv2b>so the money stays there
11:24<reto>well, in 'my' version the companyvalue would be added to the cash of all share owners
11:25<pv2b>i think that already happens
11:25<reto>which would be fair, imho
11:25<pv2b>if you own stock in a comany that goes bankrupt, your shares are returned
11:25<reto>so the shares are sold right before the player ges annihilated
11:25<pv2b>yeah, i think so
11:25<reto>that sounds reasonable
11:25<thomas001>reto, hmm capacity is still listed as 40 passengers and 15 pieces of post (sorry don't know the english word)
11:26<pv2b>then i think it is not possible to do what you want
11:26<reto>thomas001: okay, try to refit to something else, and then back to passengers
11:26<reto>thomas001: if that doesn't work I'm sorry
11:27<LA[lord]>it wont work
11:27<LA[lord]>I just tried
11:27<reto>okay, sorry
11:27<LA[lord]>but you can refit to only post
11:27<reto>I thought I've seen something like that
11:27<LA[lord]>55 post things
11:27<pv2b>and it shouldn't you can't just stuff passengers in a post compartment
11:27<LA[lord]>lol
11:27<LA[lord]>ok away again
11:27<pv2b>they're not potatoes
11:28<reto>pv2b: I think I've got a solution :)
11:28<pv2b>reto: well?
11:28<reto>pv2b: gonna show you some pseudo code in a minute
11:30<reto>pv2b: the whole thing Is a directed graph which we traverse
11:31<reto>pv2b: but we avoid any nodes which are already in a set
11:31<reto>so we won't traverse our own company agin
11:31<reto>or any other companies we have already visited
11:31<reto>http://rafb.net/p/r1Zp1769.html
11:32<reto>basi_value() would return the current company value
11:32<reto>pv2b: does this make any sense?
11:32<pv2b>1 min..
11:32<reto>:)
11:32<reto>np
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11:40<reto>pv2b: hmm.. I could write a simpe prototype in ruby do confirm the system, do you agree: sum_of_all_company_values and sum_of_all_basic_company_values should stay the same, no matter what changes
11:41<pv2b>back
11:41<pv2b>or you can just try it in excel
11:41<pv2b>or something
11:41<pv2b>i'm checking your coden ow
11:41<reto>don't have excel :)
11:41<pv2b>ooo ten
11:41<reto>well, wouldn't be that much code
11:41<pv2b>what's basic_value()?
11:42<reto>thats the normal company value, trains, busses, stations, whatever
11:42<reto>and cash
11:42<pv2b>k
11:42<reto>the for-each thing is a bit wrong, but I guess you know what I mean
11:43<pv2b>one helpful criterion
11:43<pv2b>buying and selling shares must be zerosum
11:43<reto>yeap
11:43<pv2b>so make that algorithm for like 4 companies
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11:43<pv2b>try every single combination
11:43<pv2b>see if they all get the same amoutn of value
11:43<reto>yap, good idea
11:43<pv2b>but wait... just a second
11:43<reto>:)
11:43<pv2b>how is value measured?
11:44<reto>what do you mean?
11:44<pv2b>you're makign a function where company value differs depending on who measures it?
11:44<pv2b>or what is owner_set?
11:44<reto>you got it :)
11:44<pv2b>aha.... yes
11:44<reto>:)
11:44<reto>I'm not sure if that's even close to correct
11:44<reto>:)
11:45<pv2b>because that's not the *company* value
11:45<pv2b>it's the *share* value
11:45<reto>hmm
11:45<pv2b>or something
11:45<reto>yeah
11:45<reto>then company value would be: that company's value plus all share value
11:45<reto>and share value would be my algo?
11:45<pv2b>mm. something like that.
11:45<reto>hmm
11:45<pv2b>because buying shares in a company that owns most of your company should cost less?
11:46<pv2b>or should it?
11:46<reto>hmm
11:46<reto>hmm.. :) my mind goes crazy :)
11:46<reto>nah I think it wouldn't cost less... I tihnk
11:46<pv2b>no, it wouldn't
11:47<pv2b>but those shares of your self you now own part of shouldn't really be..... uh...
11:47<reto>but when you merge I have no idea what should happen
11:47<pv2b>calculated to your company value again?
11:47<pv2b>gaah *<:D
11:47<reto>hmm
11:47<reto>well, they would get subtracted from your own company value yes
11:47<pv2b>i just disable shares
11:47<pv2b>when i play
11:47<reto>:)
11:47<reto>I just play single player at the moment
11:48<pv2b>the system sucks, and fixing it is obviously nontrivial
11:48<reto>and there it's kinda funny
11:48<reto>because it's impossible to ruin them
11:48<reto>I would wish there would be a dialog: 'you just have taken over comapny XY, would you liek to sell all assets? '
11:48<reto>:)
11:48<reto>like in the real world
11:48<reto>you fire all employees :)
11:48<pavel1269>lol
11:49<pavel1269>real world ... yeah ...
11:50<reto>well it takes me about an hour or two to sell unrentable(/duplicated trains, correct the path of some trains
11:50<reto>upgrade the engines, egc.
11:50<reto>propperly build th eairports
11:50<reto>yesterday I've play a game: started in 2000, 7 components, all fast and 'very intelligent', 512 x 512, flat/not much water
11:51<reto>I haven't build a single train, just four airports
11:51<reto>ah wait, first I ahve let them build for about two years
11:51<reto>then I bought all companys, one by one :)
11:51<reto>optimizing them
11:51<reto>and then hunting for the next one
11:51<pv2b>i prefer to build from the ground up
11:51<pv2b>the AI just makes lots of stupid stuff imo
11:52<reto>after 16 years all starting companies belogned to me, with about 500'000'000 cash :)
11:52<reto>about 150 trains.. (haven't build one of them) :)
11:52<reto>was kinda funny
11:52<reto>yeah
11:52<reto>first thing when you bought up a company: sell all red trains :)
11:52<reto>well, was an intersting experiment
11:52<reto>I prefer normal games as well
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11:57<LA[lord]>ok..back again after a healthy 25min jogging
11:58<LA[lord]>any Belugas's presence noticed?
12:00<pavel1269>no
12:01<LA[lord]>darn...
12:01<pavel1269>hehe orudge wrote to my topic :) iformation_value == 0, but still :)
12:02<+glx>LA[lord]: it's saturday and he have a family
12:02<LA[lord]>true :)
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12:12<@orudge>pavel1269: which topic was that? I've posted in a fair few topics today :p
12:13<@orudge>speed limit topic?
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12:13<+glx>looks like it
12:13<@orudge>indeed
12:13<pavel1269>ye :)
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12:16<@orudge>I really should have published my code a year ago when I wrote it
12:16<@orudge>somehow, I never got around to it
12:17<pavel1269>;)
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12:20<Sacro>fix'd
12:21<pavel1269>Sacro: how's your programmable signals doing? :)
12:21<Sacro>pavel1269: *cough*
12:21<peter__>hmm
12:21<Sacro>i've made a start
12:21<peter__>that tingled :o
12:22<Sacro>Bjarni makes me tingle
12:22<peter__>holding xbox psu by its edges
12:22<peter__>must've slipped...
12:22<pavel1269>tingle?
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12:25<pavel1269>Sacro: btw, what your start contain?
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12:26<Sacro>pavel1269: svn up ;)
12:27<pavel1269>dunno whats that :)
12:28<pavel1269>whatever, i am caring because i am making(trying to make) prog. signals too :P
12:28<pavel1269>atm i just broke whole signal system ^^
12:29<Sacro>i was thnking of fixing ABS first
12:29<pavel1269>ABS?
12:29<Sacro>absolute block
12:29<pavel1269>why i dont understand you something in every line :))
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12:30<pavel1269>whats that? absolute block?
12:33<Sacro>errr...
12:33<Sacro>very similar to how it works currently, the lines are split into blocks
12:33<Sacro>and you can only have 1 train per block
12:35<pavel1269>ahh
12:35<pavel1269>that's what i currently broke :D
12:35<@Bjarni><Sacro> Bjarni makes me tingle <-- wtf
12:35<Sacro>hehe
12:35<@Bjarni>I know that's the usual response to Sacro, but still...
12:38<thomas001>Sacro, so whats the difference?
12:38<Sacro>thomas001: what do you mean?
12:39<thomas001>Sacro, ABS,you said its very similar to how it currently works,but where is it different?
12:40<peter__>antilock braking system?
12:41<Sacro>thomas001: TT is default green
12:41<Sacro>ABS is default red
12:41<pavel1269>red is better :)
12:41<pv2b>default red makes more sense imo
12:41<pavel1269>yeah
12:41<thomas001>so TT is red when a train is in the block? when is ABS green?
12:42<pavel1269>:))
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12:43<+glx><thomas001> so TT is red when a train is in the block? when is ABS green? <-- when a train wants to enter in a free block
12:44<thomas001>so when in ABS a train wants to enter its basically the TT signal behaviour?
12:47<pavel1269>O_O
12:48<Digitalfox>So even photoshop has spyware lol http://www.betanews.com/article/Evidence_Adobe_uses_analytics_to_sample_CS3_user_behavior/1198868121
12:48<Digitalfox>or ad ware call it what you want
12:49<reto>pv2b: B has shares of A, A buys shares of B: A doesn't have to pay for the value added by B's posseion of A shares, but I also doesn't get them if they merge
12:49<Digitalfox>What's next, Windows sending info about what porn i see in media player? lol
12:49<reto>pv2b: because a company can't buy it's own shares
12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>thomas001: when no train is in the block and no train is trying to enter (idle line), the TT state is green, where real signals show red
12:49<reto>pv2b: which also means that a share is cheaper/more epxansive when bought by different parties
12:49<pavel1269>Digitalfox: it will kill their servers :)
12:50<reto>pv2b: not sure if that's an evil thing or not? :)
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>that is the only difference
12:50<thomas001>Eddi|zuHause2, yes,i got that. but as there is no train involved this difference is not significant?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>real signals only switch to green if train requested it, and it is guaranteed to pass
12:50<Digitalfox>pavel1269: Maybe not, they do receive much info from people who allow the " May be study your experience with windows "
12:51<thomas001>Eddi|zuHause2, so ABS is to modell real signal behaviour?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>that last passage is the significant one
12:51<Digitalfox>pavel1269: but that you allow
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>you have to reserve the block, so no other train will get a green signal on the next request
12:52<pv2b>reto: hm, i dunno. shares shouldn't be different in price depending on who buys them... but i dunno, maybe there is no other way to fix it
12:53<thomas001>Eddi|zuHause2, what happens in TT signals if 2 trains enter at exactly the same time?
12:53<+glx>it's not possible
12:54<Eddi|zuHause2>if two trains want to enter on the same tick, one gets through (the one with the lower ID probably), and the other makes an emergency stop [which is a big "realism" problem]
12:55<thomas001>in ABS trains reserve the next block some time before entering it?
12:55<reto>pv2b: it has to do with the fact that the openttd model doesn't allow owning the own company
12:55<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, that would be a required step for better signalling
12:55<reto>anyway, I hope I can getting around creating this simulation tonight :)
12:55<thomas001>ah,thx for the explanations and patience :)
12:57<Eddi|zuHause2>basically, a signal has to have 3 states: idle (red), reserved/occupied (red) and reserved/free (green)
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12:58<pv2b>yeah, basically no two signals into the same block should be possible to be green at any given time
12:59<pv2b>also, for extra realism it shouldn't be possible to hold a higher speed than so that you can stop safely at the next currently red signal
12:59<Eddi|zuHause2>the next question is: where do you save the signal state
12:59<pv2b>the signal state is saved in the map right now i think
12:59<Eddi|zuHause2>currently, it is not saved
12:59<pv2b>ah, yeah, you're right
12:59<Eddi|zuHause2>it is recalculated every time a train enters a signal tile
13:00<pv2b>hmm
13:00<peter__>signal state is saved in the map
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13:01<pv2b>there could be a list of signals clearances and clearance requests
13:01<Eddi|zuHause2>signal states are cached somewhere, for display and stuff, but definitely not saved in the map
13:01<+glx>but there are only 2 states red/green
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13:01<pv2b>and every signal appearing in that list would be green
13:01<pv2b>otherwise, it'd be red
13:01<pv2b>simple *<:-)
13:01<pv2b>you can cache that in the map struct
13:01<pv2b>and recalculate on every signal entry
13:01<peter__>signal states are saved in the map
13:02<Eddi|zuHause2>if you say so...
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause2>still, it needs 3 states
13:02<pv2b>no
13:02<pv2b>red, green *<:-)
13:03<pv2b>you only need to store whether it's reserved or not
13:03<pv2b>whether it's free or not is calculable
13:03<pv2b>actually whether it is reserved is calculable too
13:03<Digitalfox>I wonder if anyone ever worked on a patch that gives the ability to build rail track over a tunnel, just like patch uses, i think they call it enhanced tunnels or something..??
13:04<pv2b>Digitalfox: you can build rail tracks over tunnels already
13:04<pv2b>or what do you mean?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause2>no, because you have to store which signal has been reserved for green, and which signal has been reserved for red
13:04<pv2b>Eddi|zuHause2: why?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause2>because otherwise all entry signals would be red
13:04<pv2b>and they should be unless clearance is requested
13:05<pv2b>so really the only thing that needs to be stored is "green requested?"
13:05<pv2b>whether it's acually red or green can be calculated based on actual grains
13:05<pv2b>trains
13:05<Eddi|zuHause2>pv2b: the difference between an idle-red and an occupied-red is that the first one can be changed to green
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>you have to store that difference somewhere
13:06<pv2b>it is already stored
13:06<pv2b>if a train is already in that block, don't flip it green yet
13:06<pv2b>otherwise, d
13:06<pv2b>do
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>no, because it's 3 states
13:06<pv2b>yeah, but the state of block occupied and block not occupied is calculable from the train positions
13:07<pv2b>it's good fail safe design to do it that way anyway.
13:07<Eddi|zuHause2>no, because if train reserves in advance, there is no train in the block
13:07<Eddi|zuHause2>then the block is reserved without train
13:07<pv2b>oh, i see, you want to be able to reserve in advance
13:07<Digitalfox>pv2b: I mean this http://users.tt-forums.net/ameecher/0-3b%20preview.png
13:07<pv2b>i misunderstood
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13:07<reto>:)
13:07<pv2b>Digitalfox: ah, tracks above tunnel *entrances*
13:07<pv2b>ok.
13:08<peter__>i had a go once
13:08<Digitalfox>Has anyone worked on that for open'
13:08<Digitalfox>?
13:08<peter__>it didn't work very well
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13:08<reto>that looks cool Digitalfox :)
13:09<Digitalfox>reto: patch users have that feauture, hope to see it in open soon, if someone codes it ;)
13:09<reto>hmm
13:09<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem about tracks over tunnel entrances is that they have no trackbase (in the ttdp version)
13:09<reto>the the tiles appear to not that high.. is that an illusion?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause2>that makes it look ugly
13:10<Eddi|zuHause2>reto: tunnel entrances have always been an optical illusion
13:10<Digitalfox>trackbase? Don't understand what you mean Eddi
13:10<reto>Eddi|zuHause2: really? how?
13:10<peter__>trackbed
13:10<reto>Eddi|zuHause2: and why?
13:10<peter__>gah, my trains are going all over the place :o
13:10<Eddi|zuHause2>track (rails) - trackbase (the brown stuff under the rails) - ground tile (grass/dirt/...)
13:11<LA[lord]>but they use tunnel grf like those in the picture :)
13:11<Digitalfox>Well but maybe smatz can work it like he did in his video http://dev.openttd.org/~smatz/3d/tunnel.avi
13:11<Eddi|zuHause2>reto: slopes are 8 pixels high, trains are higher than 8 pixels, so the tunnel entrance looks higher than the slope behind it actually is
13:12<reto>ah
13:12<peter__>mmm, optical illusion
13:12<reto>:)
13:12<reto>the tunnels could be two tiles high :)
13:12<LA[lord]>Eddi, that's very true
13:12<LA[lord]>I just found that out yesterday
13:12<reto>how do you call these? tiles, blocks?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause2>reto: that has been considered, but it needs a map with steeper slopes
13:14<thomas001>make trains smaller ;-)
13:14<reto>or loweer the tracks :)
13:15<reto>nah, I like it how it is :)
13:16<Sacro>lolman: sorry, kernel lockup :(
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13:31<Sacro>HOLY CARP SOMEONE HAS UPDATED THE YELLOW SIGNALS PATCH
13:31<Sacro>WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
13:32<reto>:)?
13:32<Sacro>:D!
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13:46<Sacro>hey Wolf01
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13:46<Wolf01>hey Sacro
13:47<Sacro>i need an SVN client for windows
13:47<Sacro>and maybe GIT too
13:47[~]Sacro considers cygwin
13:47<+glx>why git?
13:47<+glx>mercurial works well
13:47<Sacro>glx: i just want to be able to svn up under windows
13:47<Sacro>and use VS2005/8
13:47<Wolf01>i set up mine with tortoise and cygwin
13:48<Sacro>mmm, tortoise was considered
13:48<Sacro>i can't find a really nice IDE for linux
13:48<Sacro>gah, i was gonna install Ubuntu on my desktop
13:48<Sacro>but I left the CD somewhere
13:48<+glx>http://subversion.tigris.org <-- there you can get svn CLI
13:49<Sacro>glx: ooh, does it come with patch cli too?
13:49<+glx>gnuwin32.sf.net should have one
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13:49<skidd13>Hi folks
13:50<Sacro>hey skidd13
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14:06<peter__>bah, custom bridge heads needed :o
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14:12<reto>pv2b: got a minute?
14:14<pavel1269>peter__: why?
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14:35<Sacro>hmmm
14:35<Sacro>can't compile
14:41<pavel1269>why?
14:41<Sacro>unistd.h
14:42<Sacro>Error 1 fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dmksctrl.h': No such file or directory c:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\music\dmusic.cpp 13
14:42<pavel1269>hehe
14:42<pavel1269>wtf :)
14:42[~]pavel1269 is happy that he still can
14:42<Sacro>grr
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15:11<reto>stupid shares.. my mind is boiling .)
15:12<pavel1269>:D
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15:33<+glx>Sacro: I guess you use latest directx sdk
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i could use a few sample graphics...
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16:11<hylje>http://www.kartonmodellbau.net/pics/gebaut/Fahrzeuge-Z%FCge/Feldbahndiesellok%20Ns2f/Feldbahndiesellok%20Ns2f.htm
16:16<peter__>paper train :o
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16:35<reto>pv2b: I'm about to surrender .)
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16:50<pv2b>reto: about what?
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17:02<reto>pv2b: the whole share thing
17:05<pv2b>ah. yeah, it's ahrd.
17:05<@Bjarni><reto> stupid shares.. my mind is boiling .) <-- I hope your safety valve is working
17:05<@Bjarni>it's a mess every time a mind blows up
17:06<pavel1269>:)
17:06<pavel1269><- same proble mhere :P
17:07<pavel1269>the signals are messed, i don't understand them hard :(
17:07<pv2b>Bjarni: so, any idea about how company values could be calculated including shares, so that you don't get circular references?
17:07<pavel1269>my programmable signals work ... Random();
17:09<@Bjarni>pv2b: errr....
17:09<@Bjarni>never thought about it
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17:09<pv2b>Bjarni: it's not as trivial as you might think
17:09<Rubidium_>pv2b, simple: don't allow circular shares
17:10<pavel1269>i dont see what's wrong with shares
17:10<@Bjarni>that is the problem?
17:10<reto>:)
17:10<@Bjarni>calculate company value + value of shares
17:10<@Bjarni>I guess there is some trick to this
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17:10<@Bjarni>I mean... it should be that simple but since you have problems I guess it's a bit more complex than that
17:11<Draakon>hello
17:11<pavel1269>hi
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17:41<reto>pv2b: friend of mine found a solution
17:42<pv2b>reto: tell me.
17:43<reto>can't dont get it yet myself
17:43<reto>well, it's no big deal actually
17:43<reto>he just did a normal mathematical equation
17:43<reto>for A owns 25% of B, B owns 25% of A
17:44<reto>which is just A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
17:44<reto>two equations with two unknowns
17:44<reto>didn't thought of something like that (i suck at mathematics :)
17:44<reto>think
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17:45<pv2b>ah... of course
17:45<pv2b>so now suddenly we have to make a linear equation solver (not that hard to do though) *<:-)
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17:46<pv2b>to calculate company values
17:46<reto>well.. thats what he said as well :)
17:46<reto>but shoudln't there something simpler than a real mathematical solver?
17:46<pv2b>yeah
17:47<pv2b>you use newton elimination
17:47<pv2b>er
17:47<pv2b>gaussian elimination i mean
17:47<reto>I thought newton is already dead?
17:47<reto>:)
17:47<pv2b>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_elimination
17:48<reto>hmm.. I guess my chances to successfully write a patch droped significnatly
17:48<reto>well at least it would fix the money cheat I gfuees
17:49<pv2b>reto: hey, if you can figure out where to hook it in, i can write the gaussian eliminator for you.
17:50<reto>cool :)
17:50<reto>I've written small ruby script which does the whole company/share thing, would it make sense to write this gauss-killer first in there?
17:51<reto>it looks like:
17:51<reto>print_overview(companies)
17:51<reto>A.buy_share_of(B)
17:51<reto>print_overview(companies)
17:51<pv2b>sure, could be done that way
17:51<reto>all which is missing is a valid company-valuae calculator
17:51<pv2b>but it's a waste of time.
17:51<pv2b>easier just to make the gaussian eliminator direct in c++
17:51<reto>how much code would it be?
17:52<pv2b>maybe 40 or 50 loc.
17:52<reto>and what exactly do I have to provide to you?
17:52<reto>whats the input?
17:53<pv2b>tell me how to find the base company values (without shares) and how many people own what shares.
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17:54<reto>I guess I can do that, I would love to play around with that whole thing in a smaller eccosystem
17:54<reto>well, okay, I will gather the info
17:55<reto>I can port your soluation back to ruby afterwards to test it out a bit
18:07<Eddi|zuHause><reto> I thought newton is already dead? <- so is gauss
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>or rather: Gauß
18:08<reto>:)
18:08<pv2b>hey, this doesn't need any matrix algorithms. but it was damn handy to think of it in terms of matrices.
18:09<pv2b>at least i dont think so
18:09<Noldo>what are you building?
18:11<reto>hmm
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18:11<reto>the only real winner in openttd
18:11<reto>the real one.. is PLAYER_SPECTATOR
18:11<reto> p->share_owners[0] = p->share_owners[1] = p->share_owners[2] = p->share_owners[3] = PLAYER_SPECTATOR;
18:11<reto>:)
18:12<Noldo>PLAYER_INVALID
18:12<pv2b>that's pretty new code
18:12<pv2b>from smatz patch a few days back i think
18:12<reto>how come?
18:13<reto>is smatz the guy who developed the ecco system?
18:13<pv2b>no, he patched a security hole
18:13<pv2b>you could get billions of euros in mp due to a share bug *<:-)
18:14<reto>the share bug is described in the wiki
18:14<Noldo>there really hasn't been that much focus on the economy
18:14<pv2b>not that share bug
18:14<Noldo>which reminds me that I really should finnish that CommandCost patch soon
18:15<Noldo>maybe when I have a computer that can compile openttd without overheating
18:15<pv2b>reto: hey, i think i may have mislead you a bit. that equation system solution is a bit flawed
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18:16<reto>is it?
18:16<pv2b>think about it. ok so: A = 10000 + .75B and B = 10000 + .75A
18:16<pv2b>so in this case A=B of course
18:17<pv2b>no, wait it still works. gnn *<:-)
18:18<pv2b>oh wait... it doesn't
18:18<pv2b>where does "10000" come from?
18:19<Noldo>where did that equation come from?
18:19<reto>thats the company value
18:19<pv2b>but we don't know the company value
18:19<reto>the baisc company value :)
18:20<reto>give me a second
18:20<reto>Money CalculateCompanyValue(const Player* p)
18:20<pv2b>ahhhh. now i see why i'm confused
18:20<reto>in economy.cpp
18:20<pv2b>i'm mixing symbols for basic and total company value
18:20<reto>do you have a better name than basic?
18:21<Noldo>so what is the value of companies A and B when they own 75% of each other
18:21<reto>100
18:21<reto>well
18:21<reto>in my example above it was 100
18:21<pv2b>in this case, A=B
18:21<pv2b>so we can just do A = 10000 + .75A
18:21<pv2b>or 4A = 40000 + 3A
18:21<pv2b>so A = 40000
18:22<pv2b>does that make sense?
18:22<Gonozal_VIII>sum can't be more than the sum of base values
18:22<reto>pv2b: how can I install some debug code?
18:22<Noldo>pv2b: that is not the solution
18:23<reto>pv2b: like a debug button which would execute my function
18:23<Gonozal_VIII>A = 10000 * .25 + .75B and B = 10000 * .25 + .75A
18:23<Noldo>pv2b: sorry, my bad, it really is
18:24<Noldo>I really have to wonder how that works in real life
18:24<pv2b>yeah, something's fishy with that
18:24<pv2b>i think something must be counted more than once
18:24<pv2b>if you have 20000 of "stuff" it can't suddenly be worth totally 80000 totally
18:24<pv2b>so that solution is wrong
18:24<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: doing it like that would mean that the company value would go down when you buy stuff
18:24<pv2b>err
18:24<pv2b>when you buy shars in it
18:24<pv2b>unless...
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18:24<pv2b>hey. i think you're on to something.
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>no, when your shares are bought
18:25<Noldo>I think that shares have a book value which doesn't follow the market value too closely
18:25<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: that's what i meant
18:25<reto>well as I said this afternoon, when a company buys it own shares it nullifies them, increasing the value of the remaining shares
18:25<Noldo>the book value could even be the price paid then buying the shares
18:25<reto>but the model used in openttd is broken anyway
18:26<Gonozal_VIII>has to go down if the other value goes up, global value must stay the same
18:26<pv2b>yeah
18:26<reto>for example in openttd:
18:26<reto>when A owns 75% of B
18:26<reto>and B gains $1
18:26<reto>both A and B profit from it
18:26<reto>which is complelty nonsense
18:26<Noldo>no it's not
18:27<reto>Both A and B own B :)
18:27<reto>well, at least the gains and losses
18:27<reto>thats nonsense
18:27<Noldo>reto: actually B doesn't own B
18:27<pavel1269>oh
18:27<pavel1269>i see problem now :)
18:27<reto>Noldo: well, in fact it does, it can use the $1 gained
18:28<pavel1269>god, i understand what are you trying to solve atm
18:28<reto>Noldo: and A as well, as it can sell the share and get it
18:28<Noldo>reto: it own the $1 but not it self
18:28<Gonozal_VIII>wow, i seem to have huge lag
18:28<Noldo>0s
18:28<pv2b>i just had a burst of text
18:28<pv2b>somethings lagging
18:28<reto>anyway
18:29<pv2b>in reality.... when somebody buys shares, money should be transferred into the company that you buy shares of
18:29<Noldo>pv2b: no
18:29<reto>well it depends
18:29<Noldo>unless ofcource the company is issuing new shares
18:29<pv2b>Noldo: because the shares are bought not from a share holder, but from the company itself
18:29<reto>the money should flow to the seller of the share )
18:30<pavel1269>gn
18:30<pv2b>Noldo: the company *is* issuing new shares, since the shares are normally "held" by the company it self
18:30<pv2b>that's the big problem here, somebody's buying but nobody's selling
18:30<Noldo>the current system is so messed up that we should waste any thought on it
18:31<pv2b>agreed. how should we make it instead?
18:31<reto>stoop
18:31|-|pavel1269 [~pavel.g@48.140.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit []
18:31<reto>please stop
18:31<reto>)
18:31<reto>:)
18:31<reto>my idea would at least fix it a bit
18:31<reto>and would make it better in the way it currently is
18:31<pv2b>not better, just differnt
18:31<reto>well it depends
18:31<reto>at the moment its like
18:32<reto>you buy shares, you your company value goes down
18:32<Noldo>reto: what is that you are planning
18:32<reto>you buy more shares until you own 100%
18:32<reto>and then in second you gain all your cash back
18:32<reto>and your company value
18:32<pv2b>in fact, i think this is how it should work. you can choose how many shares you're "emitting" at any given time -- one two or three.
18:32<reto>Noldo: take the share value into considoration whe ncalculating the company value
18:32<pv2b>(of a total of four)
18:32<reto>pv2b: but then you would still own only 50% of the company
18:33<reto>pv2b: because you are doubeling your capital
18:33<pv2b>when somebody buys a share, that money goes into the company
18:33<reto>so you couldn't take over another company
18:33<reto>the openttd is different
18:33<reto>the openttd system is different than rl (that is)
18:33<pv2b>when somebody sells it, that money goes out again. problem here is you can't guarantee that the issuing company will want to buy the shares back
18:33<reto>correcting this would be a big step
18:33<Noldo>the current system would be best chaged so that you could click a button to buy a whole company
18:33<pv2b>or even afford to
18:34<reto>Noldo: and another button which would be labeld 'buy company and sell all assests'
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>you can't sell it directly, only offer
18:34<reto>:)
18:34<Noldo>reto: yeah
18:34<pv2b>ok, makes sense.
18:35<reto>anyway, pv2b can we do this change or can't we?
18:35<pv2b>it's still problematic really.
18:35<reto>the other one with the company value?
18:35<Noldo>Railroad tycoon 2 has a better share system
18:35<reto>it's not that stupid
18:35<reto>it just doesn't solve all the problems
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>huge ammount of text again...
18:35<Noldo>don't really know if it really works right of just manages to fool me
18:36<pv2b>reto: i don't agree. i think it's just more complicated and not really better.
18:36<reto>pv2b: but it's not really worse
18:36<pv2b>simpler is better
18:36<reto>and the money cheat wouldn't work anymore .)
18:37<reto>and the company value would be calculated corectly, at the moment its completly wrong
18:37<pv2b>no, but another money cheat would work instead
18:37<reto>have you already spotted one?
18:37<pv2b>first, buy 25% of company A and company B
18:37<pv2b>(you are company C)
18:37<reto>yes
18:37<pv2b>company A buys 50% of company B
18:37<reto>yes
18:37<pv2b>cmopanyt B buys 50% of company A
18:37<pv2b>value of A+B is now more than it used to be
18:38<reto>well, no
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>value can't come from nowhere
18:38<reto>at least not with the equation
18:38<pv2b>company C sells 25% shares in companies A
18:38<pv2b>Gonozal_VIII: it can in the system reto proposes
18:38<pv2b>and in company B
18:38<pv2b>and gains money from nothing
18:38<pv2b>rinse and repeat
18:38<reto>no the value of the company doesn't change
18:39<reto>at the moment it does
18:39<pv2b>yes, it does.
18:39<reto>not if your linear-gauss-killer thing is correct :)
18:39<pv2b>your idea is something like A = 10000 + .75B right?
18:39<pv2b>and B = 10000+ .75A
18:39<reto>no
18:39<pv2b>what then?
18:39<reto>A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
18:39<reto>at the beginning it was
18:39<reto>a = 100 b = 100
18:40<Noldo>pv2b: what was the buf that got fixed so time ago?
18:40<reto>then both buy a share and are then at cash 75
18:40<reto>but their value remains at 100
18:41<reto>if you solve aboves equation with a solving system you get 100 for both A and B
18:41<pv2b>reto: formula please.
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18:41<pv2b>reto: which equations?
18:41<reto>A = 75 + B/4 B = 75 + A/4
18:41<reto>A = 75 + B/4 and B = 75 + A/4
18:41<pv2b>aha
18:41<reto>A owns 75 cash and /4 of B
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18:41<pv2b>let's see if that's correct
18:42<pv2b>A=B
18:42<pv2b>so A = 75 + A/4
18:42<pv2b>4A = 300 + A
18:42<pv2b>A = 100... yeah, it works.
18:42<pv2b>ah, of course, my example actually worked all along
18:43<reto>so if you can solve the equation with many companies and many shares
18:43<pv2b>i ust failed to account for that the money "disapperared" from the company alue first when the share was actually bought
18:43<pv2b>so there was no money coming from nowhere
18:43<pv2b>because it was disappearing
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18:43<reto>ah ok
18:44<Noldo>hmmm
18:45<Noldo>75 + 75 is still < 200
18:45<pv2b>so hmm
18:45<Noldo>doesn't botter me though
18:45<reto>so we could at least bring the system to a point where it would make a little bit more sense
18:45<reto>Noldo: at the moment the company value would be 75 and 75
18:45<pv2b>[A;B;C*<;D] = [a;b;c;d] + M[A;B;C*<;D]
18:45<pv2b>where M is the share matrix
18:46<pv2b>stupid julsmiley scritp *<:-)
18:46<pv2b>[A;B;C;D] = [a;b;c;d] + M[A;B;C;D]
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>no matter how you sell or buy shares, company value should never change
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>only shifted from money to investment
18:47<pv2b>(id4 - M)[A;B;C;D] = [a;b;c;d]
18:47<Noldo>agreed
18:47<reto>exactly
18:47<pv2b>so [A;B;C;D]\(id4-M)
18:47<pv2b>that's solvable using gauss.
18:47<reto>at the moment this is inccorect Gonozal_VIII
18:48<Gonozal_VIII>i know
18:48<pv2b>i should probably try it in matlab first thoguh
18:48<reto>okay, so would you support such a patch if it would improve at least that?
18:49<pv2b>i meant [a;b;c;d]\(id4-M)
18:49<pv2b>but wait. (id4-M) might not have an inverse
18:49<Noldo>pv2b: my thoughs exactly
18:50<pv2b>for the case where nobody owns any share, id4-M is just the 4x4 identity matrix
18:50<pv2b>so that works
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>all this header rewrite killed a few patches, i assume
18:50<pv2b>hey, it's always invertible because there's always a component of the identity matrix, and M contains always 0s along that diagonal
18:50<pv2b>no, it isn't
18:51[~]pv2b stops being skitsophrenic on irc and on paper instead
18:51<Noldo>construct a non invertible matrix X and solve (id4 -M) = X
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>"schitzo..." freud was speaking german (or something)
18:52<pv2b>Noldo: never mind, it's always invertible. because you can never get two lines that are multiples of each other.
18:53<pv2b>because there's always the 1 from the identity line, and all other elements are always less than one
18:53<pv2b>and greater than zero
18:54<reto>whats strings_type.h: SPECSTR_PRESIDENT_NAME = 0x70E7,
18:54<reto>? :)
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18:55<pv2b>reto: something like "Company President Name" or whatever
18:55<reto>yeah
18:55<reto>hm
18:55<Noldo>for the spectator?
18:55<reto>I mean Ox70E7?
18:55<+glx>it's just a StringID
18:55<pv2b>oh, that's just a unique id
18:55<reto>ah
18:56<+glx>in a special range
18:58<reto>SetDParam sets the value ..
18:58<reto>and DrawString draws it?
18:58<pv2b>oh, wait a second. this might cause some floating point headaches.
18:58<pv2b>unless i find an integer way to solve this
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>you may never use floats in openttd
19:01<Rubidium_>Eddi|zuHause: lies!
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>in the gamebalance branch, there is a data type for fixed point operations
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium_: yeah, i know ;)
19:01<pv2b>yeah, i have to figure out if this can be solved using only integer math
19:02<Rubidium_>you may never use floats in OpenTTD's game logic; the Terragenisis mapgenerator uses floating points
19:02<Rubidium_>a float is nothing more than an integer and an 'offset' (or multiplier)
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but he IS trying to do game logic...
19:03<Rubidium_>he knows that
19:03<reto>hmm.. hwo can I print out uint32 name_2;
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, how do i solve a "/home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/src/network/core/../../date_func.h:15: error: ‘_patches’ was not declared in this scope"?
19:03<reto>on the console?
19:04<Rubidium_>printf("%i\n", name_2); ?
19:04<reto>I wanna print the actual string
19:05<reto>there must be a way to look it up, not?
19:05<Rubidium_>hmm... something with GetString I think
19:05<reto>ok
19:06<reto>you should know it :)
19:06<reto>/* $Id: strings_func.h 11675 2007-12-21 19:49:27Z rubidium $ */ :)
19:06<reto>;)
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>just that he commited to the file doesn't mean he understands it ;)
19:09<reto> case SCC_STRING5: { /* {STRING5} */
19:09<reto> /* String that consumes FIVE arguments */
19:09<reto>hmmmm
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem?
19:11<reto>it looks strange :)
19:11<pv2b>Rubidium_: posted response to your comment on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1603
19:11<Rubidium_>I already knew that 5 minutes ago
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19:16<pv2b_>oftc is being quite flaky today
19:18<+glx>should be on your side
19:18<pv2b_>or on he side of my server
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19:55<reto>pv2b: i'm going to prepare everything in the next few days
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19:55<reto>pv2b: ill get back to you sooner or later :)
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19:56<reto>never mind, if you shouldn't have time for it just dont do it, going to gather the info anyway
19:56<reto>as a exercise :)
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... alpine and PBI don't mix very well...
20:16<Wolf01|AWAY>'night
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20:39<Sacro>rawr
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21:12<Sacro>do my eyes decieve me
21:12<Sacro>a commit 5 hours ago by peter1138!!! :D
21:33<pv2b>there we go. got a rudimentary version of that algo done now
21:33<pv2b>it's not pretty. doesn't have to be though.
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21:41<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, yapf is behaving weird on me...
21:42<Eddi|zuHause2>yapf.rail_firstred_exit_penalty=10000
21:42<Eddi|zuHause2>yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty=5000
21:43<Eddi|zuHause2>now if the exit signal is red
21:43<Eddi|zuHause2>it goes through a green signal, turns in the depot, and then go back through the red signal
21:43<Eddi|zuHause2>because it isn't the first signal anymore, that route gets a much smaller penalty
21:45<Eddi|zuHause2>this depot reverse penalty is much too low for my taste anyway
21:45<Gonozal_VIII>it's often good to have a train enter a depot instead of waiting at a red signal
21:45<Gonozal_VIII>especially if that red signal is an exit
21:48<Eddi|zuHause2>but... not in my setup
21:48<Gonozal_VIII>then change the penalty for your setup :P
21:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i know ;)
21:48<Eddi|zuHause2>but if i change values ingame, it does not put them in the config file...
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>then change it in the config..
21:49<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the config gets overwritten, when i close the game
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>after i start a game, i always end up setting the same options that i always forget...
21:51<Eddi|zuHause2>turn around in stations
21:52<Eddi|zuHause2>don't treat red twoway as dead end
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>then set it before starting once
21:52<Eddi|zuHause2>and i also changed depot penalty in a previous game
21:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you say that so easily ;)
21:52<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't start games very often
21:53<Eddi|zuHause2>the last time i tried to start a game, FS#1577 happened
21:54<Eddi|zuHause2>this time i could only start a game because i reverted that revision
21:57<Gonozal_VIII>alpine grf could need some modernisation
21:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, MB posted pictures of new buildings and stuff years ago...
21:59<Gonozal_VIII>industry part should be removed/seperated
21:59<Eddi|zuHause2>that also
22:00<Gonozal_VIII>mb has lots of unfinished work
22:01<Gonozal_VIII>i read something about houses that act like industries and more ships
22:03<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, fs1577: when, during map gen, does it hang?
22:04<Eddi|zuHause2>i couldn't find that out exactly... the progress bar stops at different steps depending on map size
22:04<@Belugas>at 256*253?
22:05<@Belugas>256
22:05<@Belugas>damn it
22:05<Eddi|zuHause2>it'd be quite natural if it hanged during industry generation
22:05<@Belugas>not really...
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22:07<Eddi|zuHause2>well, r11425 was about industries
22:07<Eddi|zuHause2>and specifically, mapping of industries to default industries, which the alpine set apparently does
22:10<@Belugas>mmh... true, looks like that
22:12<Eddi|zuHause2>so... on 256x256 it stops at 0% (world generation), at 2048x2048 it stops at 15% (rough and rocky area generation)
22:12<Eddi|zuHause2>which i assume is one of the last successfully run phases
22:13<@Belugas>nononon.... towns!
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22:14<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, everything seems to work fine if i revert that revision
22:16<@Belugas>possibly, but it is the town that is affected
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22:19<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, if towns are affected, this would explain what as noticed (buildings without snow if you start after 1930)
22:23<@Belugas>could be, indeed
22:23<@Belugas>GrowTown now...
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22:27<@Belugas>that is frustrating...
22:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i can imagine... i have no idea how this commit can be related to houses
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22:29<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, if the hang only happens before 1930, it could be related to a house that does not get generated in later stages
22:32<@Belugas>i wonder if by any chances, introduciton dates have been set
22:32<@Belugas>that would explainbfg
22:33<@Belugas>harggg... kitty has walked on keyboard :(
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22:52<@Belugas>DoBuildTownHouse indeed...
22:52<@Belugas>no available houses
22:52<@Belugas>but...
22:52<@Belugas>does not seems that MB specifies a date on his grf
22:53<Eddi|zuHause2>if i understand his concept right, he just ports the temperate landscape stuff to arctic
22:53<Eddi|zuHause2>houses, industries, behaviour of town growth
22:53<+glx>should be something with "default" values again
22:54<Eddi|zuHause2>but leaves every other value to default
22:56<@Belugas>true... i think glx has spotted something...
22:57<+glx>we usually don't have the same default as in ttdp
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23:02<@Belugas>i give up for now...
23:02<@Belugas>BigBB is going to hate me...
23:06<+glx>good night
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23:16<@Belugas>gone sleeping too...
23:16<@Belugas>noght
23:17<@Belugas>moght
23:17<@Belugas>night@!$$#@#
23:17<Gonozal_VIII>^^
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 30 00:00:57 2007