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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-03

---Logopened Thu Jan 03 00:00:22 2008
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01:55<peter__>gid moaning
01:56<Gonozal_VIII>evening
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03:26<peter__>hmm, overrides not working :o
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04:03<peter__>pom te pom
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04:32<Digitalfox_>Good morning :)
04:32<peter__>yes
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05:30<Gonozal_VIII>no, it's late at night
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05:31<Gonozal_VIII>GPT
05:31<Gonozal_VIII>gonos personal time
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05:44<Gonozal_VIII>now i can't get that song out of my head... i'm gonna be by the proclaimers...
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06:18<Eddi|zuHause3>good moaning indeed...
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06:24<Vikthor>Jdu do školy, čau
06:25<Gonozal_VIII>?
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06:54<nordenm>Just came by to thank Bjarni for the excellt mac os x port and the autoreplace-function that saved me several hours today :)
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08:55<@Belugas>good day all
08:55<Noldo>good day
08:55<novotv6_>and good day to you Belugas
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08:59<peterbrett>what's the git clone url for the repos?
08:59<Digitalfox_>Good afternoon Belugas ;)
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09:00<peterbrett>nm, got it
09:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11747 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Change: Return of the prodigal son (or something). Little update (but highly noticed) on the OpenTTD Team
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09:17|-|mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
09:21<Arbitrary>hmm - shouldn't "refit train" update the total cargo details?
09:24<Maedhros>it does here...
09:25<Arbitrary>nope, I have to swap off onto a different tab and back again before the display updates
09:26<Arbitrary>r11744
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09:29<Maedhros>hmm, oh yes, i have come across this one before
09:29<Maedhros>the window is only refreshed if either the first vehicle is refitted, or some of the train details like total power change
09:31<Maedhros>i've got it fixed in my refit patch locally, so i didn't see it this time ;)
09:32<Arbitrary>:)
09:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11748 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp table/sprites.h):
09:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Remove magic numbers introduced on r11746 and r11727
09:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: A few bad coding style inadvertendly applied too
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10:28<dih>anybody here familir with supybot?
10:28<skidd13>dih: what's the problem?
10:29<dih>i am failing to get ChannelLogger (database version) to work
10:30<skidd13>dih: Hmm, then I can't help you ;) sry
10:31<dih>np - thanks though :-)
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11:26<UnderBuilder>what can I do for don't get bored while playing ottd?
11:28<hylje>elaborate
11:28<hylje>do you want to get bored
11:28<hylje>or to not get bored
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11:37<@Belugas>I guess he means "What should I do for not getting bored while playing ottd?"
11:37<@Belugas>or something
11:37<@Belugas>i do ot know how to answer that one... On my side, i'd code something, or bug fix ^_^
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11:44<hylje>http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1199375689174.jpg
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12:00<pavel1269>hi
12:08<SmatZ>hi pavel1269
12:09<pavel1269>hi SmatZ :)
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12:12<nordenm>is there any way to upgrade trains from electrical to monorail by using the "replace train"-thingy?
12:13<hylje>no
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>no
12:13<pavel1269>no :)
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>you are too slow for this world :p
12:13<hylje>slowpoke
12:13<nordenm>baah
12:13<nordenm>that stinks :P
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause>just use a newgrf set... they usually don't have monorail at all...
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>and maglev only for passengers and consumer goods
12:15<nordenm>but I want to see my gorgeous train network converted to maglev :/ oh well
12:15<DaleStan>And the few that do have monorail don't have maglev at all.
12:16<hylje>does newgrf even support rail+elrail+mono+maglev
12:16<peter_>yes
12:16<DaleStan>newgrf does support all four types, but TTDPatch does not.
12:18<DaleStan>TTDPatch will combine one or both of rail+elrail and mono+maglev into a single system.
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12:29<Wolf01>hello
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12:59<pavel1269>yaay, my RR works :P now just GUI :o)
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13:28<Sacro>hmm
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13:29<@Belugas>hey Sacro
13:29<@Belugas>pavel1269, RR ?
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13:30<pavel1269>Belugas: Route REsctrictions
13:31<pavel1269>programmable signals
13:31<@Belugas>ha
13:31<@Belugas>ok
13:31<@Belugas>intersting
13:31<pavel1269>but ... hehe ... one-way signals have bug :(
13:31<pavel1269>repairing atm
13:32<@Belugas>gaaa.. wanted to test something, and i forgot what :(
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14:00<pavel1269>btw, anyone know what change/do to kill this:
14:00<pavel1269>LINK : ..\objs\Win32\Debug\\openttd.exe not found or not built by the last incremental link; performing full link
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14:03<+glx>that's not a problem
14:03<+glx>you don't need to kill it
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14:04<peter__>it's annoying if it should be able to do an incremental link though
14:04<Arbitrary>is it my imagination or does visual studio have the slowest linker known to man?
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14:04<peter__>Arbitrary, it does a lot of optimization during linking
14:04<+glx>for release builds yes
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14:27<peter__>hi
14:28<Tekky>hi peter :)
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>hi Tekky (!)
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>did you get further with your realistic signalling?
14:32<Tekky>hi, yes, I have gotten further and I also have written some code. However, I don't want have a working version yet and I don't want to write any more code until the issues are sorted out that are discussed in these two threads:
14:33<Tekky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=31172
14:33<Tekky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14154&start=440
14:34<Tekky>My main concern is compatibility with traditional OpenTTD signalling.
14:35<hylje>(!)
14:36<hylje>looks great
14:36<Tekky>I don't want to create a fork of OpenTTD that would split the OpenTTD community, by forcing people to only either use the traditonal signals or the new PBS signals, but not both.
14:36<hylje>i'd think a better (optional) design is better than pure tradition
14:37<@Belugas>wrong, hylje
14:37<@Belugas>it's better to support both, in my opinion
14:38<Sacro>hey Tekky! :D
14:38[~]Sacro has been fiddling with the signals
14:38<peter__>especially with something as fundamental as signals
14:38<@Belugas>or at least, make it so that new system emulates the old system on demand...
14:38[~]Belugas nods at peter__
14:39<Tekky>hi Sacro :)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>if it's too much of a hassle to support a mixture, only support one version depending on (per player?) setting
14:39<@Belugas>it all depends on how the systems are implemented...
14:40<@Belugas>if it is some kind of pluggable objects, it should be fine to support 2, 3 ,a gazillion systems
14:41<hylje>country support, incompatible systems >:)
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it'd be best if all current networks would be usable with the new signalling system
14:41<hylje>(but a new replacement is better than nothing at all)
14:42<@Belugas>...
14:42<@Belugas>a new replacement.... we have an old replacemtn?
14:42<Tekky>I had initally planned to offer only limited support for tradititional signals, as described in this post:
14:42<Tekky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=626039#p626039
14:42<@Belugas>or we have nothing at all....
14:42<@Belugas>i am confused
14:43<Tekky>However, DaleStan was not happy with that idea :) He wants full support :)
14:43<@Belugas>he's not alone in that matter :)
14:44<Tekky>Well, exotic things like priority lines will not work, but I think most layouts will still work.
14:44[~]DaleStan has very bad memories of last time someone said "Oh, PBS will magically work, and doesn't need this complicated presignal stuff".
14:44<Sacro>DaleStan: yes, it was a bit...
14:45<Sacro>broken :)
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14:45[~]Sacro will bbl
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14:46<Tekky>Maybe I should just try to implement my method with limited compatibility for traditonal signalling and see whether this limited support is sufficient.
14:48<Tekky>I think that most station and track layouts will work with my limited support for traditonal signalling, as described in this post
14:48<Tekky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=626039#p626039
14:48<peter__>DaleStan, i remember suggesting it be ripped out too ;)
14:48<Noldo>is the pbs working in a pbs only environment?
14:48<@Belugas>pbs is only available in a ttdp environnement
14:49<@Belugas>so, yes
14:49<peter__>heh
14:52<Tekky>Noldo: I have no working code yet, because I first need to settle how traditonal signals are to be handled.
14:52<hylje>TTD signals
14:53<Noldo>pbs signal works like an exit signal when entering pbs and as a pre signal when leaving?
14:53<Tekky>yes, my main concern right now is backward compatibility.
14:54<DaleStan>Noldo: why not "PBS" and "presignal" work entirely independently?
14:55<Noldo>you mean that one user can only have one or the other?
14:55<hylje>the systems are hard to make work together
14:56<hylje>also the benefit might not be anything special
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with the above post (afaik that was even my suggestion back then)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>if you hit an exit signal, reserve another part of the track
14:59<Noldo>that is basically the same as treating them like normal piece of track
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15:02<nimrod>hi
15:02<nimrod>hi to all
15:02<hylje>helo
15:03<Tekky>hi nimrod
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15:04<Tekky>the main problem is that traditional TTD signalling works with "blocks". However, my PBS signals work with individual track segments, which can be reserved by a train or not. Therefore, these two signalling types are not very compatible.
15:05<Noldo>don't worry about the blocks
15:05<hylje>well
15:05<hylje>when the fundamentals conflict
15:05<hylje>the new style should override
15:06<Noldo>think how in your system it is possible to make a thingie that is functionally as similar as possible to a pre signal
15:07<Noldo>there is no problem with the basic signals, right?
15:07<DaleStan><Noldo> you mean that one user can only have one or the other? <-- No, I mean that there are 8 types. PBS may be added to any of the current 4 signal types, resulting in a total of 8 types, and presignal systems will continue to behave like presignal systems, regardless of the presence or absence of the PBS bit.
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15:09<DaleStan><Tekky> Therefore, these two signalling types are not very compatible. <-- "Not compatible within a single block", you mean. Why you have some blocks that are reserved section by section, and other blocks that are "reserved" as a single unit?
15:09<DaleStan>*Why can't you have
15:12<Tekky>DaleStan: Yes, that is possible. But my main concern is how to handle the area between the PBS- and non-PBS area, i.e. the behavior when entering and leaving a PBS area.
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15:12<DaleStan>If the signal the train is about to pass is a PBS signal, do the PBS thing. If it's a non-PBS signal, do the non-PBS thing.
15:14<Noldo>Tekky: your system does only need one type of signal? (let's forget the unsafes for a little while)
15:14<peter__>it's not just train behaviour
15:14<peter__>there's the routines that update signal state
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i would do away with the block behaviour altogether, and then introduce "compatibility" signals, that simulate the block behaviour, and while that switch is activated, maybe disable some of the more advanced new signal behaviours (e.g. different levels of "weak reservations")
15:17<DaleStan>Maybe I'm just too TTDPatch-centric, but what does PBS have to do with the signal state? Either the signal is red or the signal is green. PBS only changes whether the train will pass the signal, not what state the signal shows.
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>and that is the wrong approach
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>the signal should show the state that the train will obey to
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>if the signal shows red, then the train must stop
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>if the signal shows red, then the train goes through
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>s/red/green
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>so the signal must pay attention to what train is trying to go through
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>the "compatibility signal" then knows "oh, that train wants to go to X/Y/Z, whatever, i don't care"
15:20<DaleStan>So change how PBS signals update. Why does this change how the non-PBS signals update? And why does this have to be fixed concurrently with implementing PBS?
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>you suggest "implement the new system, let the old code handle the old system"
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest "implement the new system, remove the old code, and let the new system simulate the behaviour of the old system"
15:22<Noldo>I agree
15:22<DaleStan>Because your solution is so much easier than mine?
15:22<Noldo>and it's not even that hard
15:22<peter__>why haven't you written it then? :)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, because it is The Right Thing(tm)
15:24<DaleStan>So the The Right Thing is also to have everyone run one processor that can execute all instructions from all other processors in the world?
15:24<peter__>mmm, mame :D
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>noboddy said that...
15:24<Noldo>pre/combo signal show green only when a path to a safe stoping signal signal has been reserved so that the path goes through an exit signal
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: but do 64 bit processors have a 32 bit processor built inside, or rather a 32 bit emulation layer?
15:27<DaleStan>But you said that having both old things and new things is bad, and the new thing should instead simulate the old thing. Therefore any new $FOO should be able to simulate all old @FOO. Why does this change when $FOO = "processor" and @FOO contains both "PPC" and "x86"?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>where do you think you have seen a "change"?
15:30<DaleStan>Because there are, to my knowledge, no processors that can execute both x86 and PPC binaries, and, to my knowledge, no one who thinks that such processor should exist.
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>but it is a totally different scenario, to create the appropriate analogy, you have $FOO = "new openttd signals" and @FOO = {"old openttd signals", "TTDPatch signals"}
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>we should not attempt that
15:33<hylje>perl
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>if AMD creates a new generation of 64 bit processors, they are designed to run code that could run on old AMD 32 bit processors
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>not some other company's PPC processors
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>likewise, simulating TTDP's PBS implementation was never the question
15:34<DaleStan>And you have old things and new things, and the new things that can't do what the old thing does. But you just said that new things should emulate the old things.
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>AMD's 32 bit processors could not run PPC programs
15:36<Noldo>but only the features
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>why should AMD's 64 bit processors do?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is NOT part of "simulate the old behaviour"
15:37<Noldo>not the hacks that are possible only be relying on the details of the implementation
15:37<Tekky><DaleStan> Maybe I'm just too TTDPatch-centric, but what does PBS have to do with the signal state? Either the signal is red or the signal is green. PBS only changes whether the train will pass the signal, not what state the signal shows. <-- In my new PBS system, signals will react to trains and trains instead of vice-versa. For example, all signals will show red by default and
15:37<Tekky>will only show green when a train has reserved a route past the signal.
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15:37<pavel1269>gn
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15:38<Tekky>whoops, I made a little mistake in my last message. Here it is again: In my new PBS system, signals will react to trains instead of vice-versa. For example, all signals will show red by default and will only show green when a train has reserved a route past the signal.
15:39<Eddi|zuHause><Tekky> will only show green when a train has reserved a route past the signal. <- exactly, and you can simulate the old behaviour by reserving ALL tracks behind the signal, instead of just the ones the train is going to pass
15:39<Tekky>My new signalling system is therefore train-driven and not signal-driven.
15:39<DaleStan>Which can actually be done in TTDPatch, with PBS and a bit of signal programming. It's quite possible to use programmable signals to make a signal always show red. This is not obviously useful, but PBS allows a train to pass a red signal if it can find a path to its destination.
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>"but PBS allows a train to pass a red signal" <- and that is wrong
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>a train may never ever pass a red signal
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>if i want to program a signal as always red, then i mean that track should never be used until i reprogram that signal
15:41<Noldo>I don't actually see any need to simulate the old behaviour in the lets-reserve-everything way
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: i was merely stating that as a possibility
15:41<DaleStan>Fine. I was hoping I could gloss over silly implemetation details like that. "But PBS allows a train to pass a signal that was red before the path reservation succeeded." Better?
15:41<Noldo>it's enough that the real features of presignal system are there in the new system too
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: that is a totally different sentence
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>if a path reservation succeded, the signal should turn green
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>except if i told the signal to never turn green
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. unpassable track)
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>in that case, the pathfinder should not even attempt to reserve that track
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>(the use of that is "trains should not pass this track, but i do not want to remove it, in case i need it later")
15:44<DaleStan><Eddi|zuHause> except if i told the signal to never turn green< -- But you didn't. Not entirely, anyway. You also told it to "behave like a PBS signal." And "behave like a PBS signal" means, "regardless of any other instructions, allow a train to pass if it can find a path." If you want an impassible signal, you have to remove "behave like a PBS signal" from the equation
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>but, there is no reason for a standard game (i.e. not an ultra-traditionalist or a heavy-signal-abuse game) to even have a "behave like PBS" switch
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>because that should be the natural behaviour of a signal
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>together with "show red if no path is reserved"
15:51<DaleStan>So signal-abuse games won't work on new versions of OpenTTD? That would be a bug, not a feature.
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>i already gave the solution for that
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>have a switch "use compatibility signals", which then changes the track reservation algorithm of the standard signals
15:53<SmatZ>I didn't read all the text you have written - but isn't the red or green for PBS signals just a cosmetic feature?
15:54<DaleStan>But what happens on MP games where some want compatibility signals and others want PBS?
15:54<hylje>the server owner decides
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: like YAPF settings, these can be player based
15:56<DaleStan>SmatZ: Basically, yes. In fact, the red/green state is cosmetic for all signals. All that is really relevant is the presence or absense of a signal, and under what circumstances it would allow a train to pass. Whether it would allow a completely non-existent train to pass were it to materialize right now is uninteresting.
15:57<Noldo>no it's not cosmetic in the presense of presignals
15:57<DaleStan>If they are player-based, then one player chooses new, and another player joins the company and chooses compatibility.
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>DaleStan: that is up to the players to fight out...
15:57<Noldo>the behaviour of presignals depends on the the states of other signals
15:57<DaleStan>Yes, it is. If there is no train, whether the train could pass is uninteresting, and if there is a train, then you look to see whether or not it is passing.
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15:58<DaleStan>Having the state displayed to the player does not change how the game works internally.
15:58<SmatZ>DaleStan: that is a deep thought... we can have game without any signals when there is "working PBS" (virtual signal on each trackdir)
16:01<Noldo>and the signal states in priorities are resting on imaginary trains taking paths that normal trains can't take
16:01<SmatZ>Noldo: well... priorities are a bit hacky thing :) but you are right
16:03<SmatZ>DaleStan: is it a problem to use different pathfinder and different signalling system for different players? based on for example _current_player and tile owner
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, what i am trying to say is we should "deprecate" the old signal behaviour, and only allow it on special demand (like the disable elrail switch)
16:03<ln->who's familiar with Cocoa? (and is here)
16:04<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: once there is working PBS... :-)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: pathfinder i don't know exactly, but all the yapf details (penalties etc.) are per company
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>KUDr designed the system exactly because every player can use the settings that fit best their network
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>and not depend on server settings
16:07<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: really?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
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16:09<SmatZ>it is not in the player struct
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how that is implemented, but it was said it does that...
16:11<SmatZ>only network server can change YAPF settings
16:11<SmatZ>but even if it was not implemented, it could be done...
16:13<hylje>aaaaa
16:13<hylje>serves me right for not autosaving
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16:16<@Belugas>night all, have fun
16:19<hylje>night
16:31<Tekky><SmatZ> DaleStan: that is a deep thought... we can have game without any signals when there is "working PBS" (virtual signal on each trackdir) <--- Yes, this also exists in reality. For example, here in Germany, all trains that go beyond 160 km/h (100mph) don't obey any standard train signals. Instead, the train's maximum speed is at all times controlled by the CTC (centralized traffic control).
16:32<Tekky>See this wiki article for further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZB
16:32<Tekky>This could also be implemented into OpenTTD, but I think it would be boring.
16:32<Tekky>I prefer real signals :)
16:36<SmatZ>:-)
16:36<Tekky>However, such a feature would be cool to have, as a patch which can be disabled.
16:36<hylje>:o
16:36<hylje>progressive signalling
16:36<Tekky>yes.
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>"drive on sight" for trains <60km/h?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>(also limited weight)
16:38<hylje>and non-passenger :)
16:38<peter__>no signals
16:39<peter__>disable collision detection
16:39<peter__>"fun"
16:40<Tekky>hehe, I once made a patch which disabled trains from obeying signals. I made all trains think that signals show green. Before I activated the patch, I had 140 trains on my network. A minute later, I had only about 4 or 5 trains on my network :)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, only the "realism" part gets... "left on the track" (we germans say)
16:40<hylje>haha
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: that probably beats Sacro's PBS experience ;)
16:42<Tekky>hehe, what did Sacro do? :)
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was Brianetta who made signal-free networks and relied on the timing of trains so they wouldn't collide
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: due to PBS's implementation, crashed trains release their reservation before they are fully cleared, causing the next train to enter and collide with the remains
16:43<Brianetta>It was I
16:43<Brianetta>and it screwed up eventually
16:43<Brianetta>and once we had timetables, it tended to screw up even faster
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>haha ;)
16:44<Tekky>lol
16:44<Brianetta>OpenTTD's timetables are useless, because they can't do the one thing that timetables are really there for:
16:44<Brianetta>Guaranteeing a space for the next train
16:44<Brianetta>When my express arrives, I want the platform to be empty for it
16:45<Brianetta>I want trains to arrive no-earlier-than
16:45<Brianetta>but the timetables only work to no-later-than
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, timetables need synchronisation measures
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16:46<Draakon>hello
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>what i found lacking was the ability to show times relative to another train, so i could not schedule "leave station when opposite train arrives"
16:47<Tekky>hi Draakon
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>so the trains always locked up on the single-track sections
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>timetables could have been a static solution for that
16:48<Draakon>pavel are you here?
16:48<Brianetta>I want timetables to have a basic "leave at <time>" capability
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>but without synchronisation, it can't do that
16:48<Brianetta>and there to be a pseudo-clock
16:48<Brianetta>not a time relative to the last time the train fucked up / got stopped / manually reset
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
16:50<Tekky>Once my new PBS system is running, the signalling system will be train-driven and no longer signal-driven, as it is now. Therefore, I plan to introduce programmable trains in contrast to TTDPatch's programmable signals. Programmable trains seem more meaningful than programmable signals in a network which is train-driven and not signal-driven. Maybe the timetables could be
16:50<Draakon>what train set should i use for "World Scenario": UKRS, USSet, DBSet, TTDOriginal(not maglev&monorail?
16:50<Tekky>implemented as programmable trains?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>"train 1 leave station A at 9:00", "train 2 leave station B at 10:00", "train 1 and train 2 meet at station C at 12:00"
16:51<Brianetta>Tekky: I have no idea what you're talking about
16:51<Draakon>about PBS
16:51<Tekky>Brianatta: Do you know TTDPatch's programmable signals?
16:51<Brianetta>Draakon: PBS doesn't explain anything
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: yes, trains should choose which signal to go to, not signals choose where the train should go
16:52<Brianetta>Tekky: Nope.
16:52<Draakon>you dont?
16:52<Draakon>:O
16:52<Brianetta>What>
16:52<Draakon>i thought you did
16:52<Brianetta>I use Linux, so I play OpenTTD
16:52<Draakon>but anyway what train set should i use for "World Scenario": UKRS, USSet, DBSet, TTDOriginal(not maglev&monorail?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>Draakon: all 4 :p
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>plus tropic set, australian set, japan set, ...
16:53<Draakon>cant
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>and before you start, implement different namespaces for vehicle IDs for each grf
16:54<Draakon>as use of multiple sets future has not been coded yet
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16:55<Draakon>or do you have a patch that adds that feature?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>why would i? i told you to implement it first ;)
16:57<Draakon>i dont know how
16:57<Wolf01>'night
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>then you have a task, go for it ;)
16:59<Draakon>nah
17:00<Draakon>i let others to do it
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's not the way how opensource works ;)
17:01<Draakon>i dont know how do code
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>then what are you doing here?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>go learn it!
17:01<Tekky>hehe :)
17:01<Draakon>no
17:04<Draakon>are there any ways to get TTD on mobile phone?
17:05<pv2b>Draakon: that'd be a very involved task. typically mobile phones only run software written in java (mobile edition)
17:06<pv2b>there was a port of openttd to maemo (nokia's OS for internet tablet) at one point, but i think it's dead
17:06<pv2b>maemo is based on linux and x11, so that wasn't *too* hard
17:06<pv2b>also, i guess it wouldn't be impossible to port it to a platform like openmoko either, if somebody wanted to do it.
17:07<Draakon>k
17:07<peter__>nokia's internet table isn't a mobile phone, heh
17:07<pv2b>peter__: no, but it's the closest thing to a mobile phone openttd has ever run on to my knowledge
17:07<pv2b>unless it runs on some other kind of PDAs
17:08<pv2b>speaking of that, i guess it might be portable to windows mobile, i dunno
17:08<pv2b>or even to symbian, but i doubt there's SDL for any of those
17:12<peter__>it runs on my pocketpc pda/phone thing
17:12<peter__>it's crap though
17:13<Draakon>how can SVN download for example r8000 files from svn.openttd.org/trunk as there are latest revision files?
17:15<pv2b>Draakon: custom http headers i guess, not sure.
17:15<+glx>pv2b: it should be possible to have a windows mobile build with a little work
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>Draakon: svn co -r XXXX?
17:15<pv2b>one thing to remember though, openttd is bound to be rather crap on mobile devices as the architecture for multiplayer works now
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>or svn export
17:16<pv2b>the entire world has to be calculated locally for all players for them to sync up, for bigger games, a small device like a handheld might not be able to keep up, and it'll certainly suck quite a bit of battery
17:17<pv2b>that's also a problem that can't really be solved without some rather involved changes to openttd
17:17<Draakon>Eddi: i dint ask how i can to it, i asked how it is possibile to have 11719 revisions or more files there if trunk svn folder contains only latest revison files?
17:17<pv2b>Draakon: it doesn't contain only latest revision files, it *appears* to contain only latest revision files :-)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Draakon: it will have older files if they have not been changed in between
17:18<pv2b>hidden away are the diffs that you can apply backwards to get to whatever revision you can get, and the svn server will perform that for you, i guess
17:18<Draakon>then how is it all possibile?
17:18<pv2b>if you send the right commands to the web servder
17:18<pv2b>which a simple web browser won't
17:18<Draakon>k
17:18<pv2b>remember, there's more to a http request than "get this URL for me"... you can have lots of different fields in there, i'm not sure if that's how svn specifically operates. hell, grab a packet sniffer and find out :-)
17:19<Draakon>but STILL i want to know what train set should i use for "World Scenario": UKRS, USSet, DBSet, TTDOriginal(not maglev&monorail?
17:19<+glx>use what you want
17:20<Draakon>but what is the best?
17:21<peter__>all three!
17:21<peter__>oh wait, that's special
17:21<pv2b>Draakon: whatever you like the best. it's your scenario :-)
17:21<Draakon>it not mine
17:22<UnderBuilder>openttd in java mobile edition is impossible right?
17:22<Draakon>i dled off the internet :P
17:22<Draakon>peter__:whats special?
17:22<+glx>use all grfs at the same time
17:22<Draakon>erm
17:22<Draakon>wont work
17:23<Draakon>only one will then
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>UnderBuilder: not if you find a C++ to bytecode compiler, plus some libraries
17:24<pv2b>also, openttd is probably way too big for most mobile phones
17:24<pv2b>at the very least in cpu power requirements
17:25<Rubidium>it won't work on my mobile phone ever, that's for sure ;)
17:25<Draakon>eh it does work mostly but some needed wagons are missing
17:25<pv2b>Rubidium: heh, what do you have? :-)
17:25<Draakon>bwt guys i asked about TTD not OpenTTD
17:25<Rubidium>el-cheapo phone age 5
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>cpu power is not really "required", it would just run slow... but memory is often a real limitation
17:25<Draakon>are there any ways to get TTD on mobile phone?<--- that was my question
17:26<Rubidium>i.e. only a few kbytes of storage for a few phone numbers
17:26<pv2b>Draakon: ah, in that case, hmm... well... not really. there isn't any source code for ttd. it was written in x86 assembler. cell phones don't run x86.
17:26<UnderBuilder>the DS port looks great
17:26<pv2b>that'd be even harder than gettingo penttd to run
17:27<Draakon>hehe we can run almost multiple sets at the time :D
17:27<Draakon>same time*
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>except if you could get vmware to run a virtual windows on your mobile phone :p
17:27<pv2b>unless..... you could get dosbox to run on your cell phone, and even then it'll suck
17:27<pv2b>Eddi|zuHause: dosbox, not vmware :-)
17:27<UnderBuilder>PSP or internet table?
17:27<pv2b>(does ttd run under dosbox?)
17:27<Rubidium>the dos version does
17:27<peter__>er
17:27<peter__>the nokia 9000 ran x86
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>pv2b: but that'd be less a ressource hog :p
17:28<Draakon>weee
17:28<peter__>9000 was a 386
17:28[~]Draakon start playing with multiple sets now
17:28<peter__>9110 was a 486
17:28<pv2b>Eddi|zuHause: vmware won't run on a cell phone, it virtualizes. cell phones do not have x86 processors in hem.
17:28<pv2b>wel, yeah, except the early nokia communicators as peter__ says
17:29<pv2b>but then they had monochrome or grayscale screens at best.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i played TTO on my monocrome laptop...
17:29<Draakon>who then coded support for OpenTTD to use multiple train sets? :P
17:29<UnderBuilder>I want OTTD for GB!
17:29<UnderBuilder>lol
17:29<pv2b>i want ottd on my ti-83
17:29<pv2b>come on now, can't be that hard to fit into 32 kB of memory ;-)
17:30<+glx>and you need to convert it to z80
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't actually monochrome... it used like 4 grey levels to simulate 16
17:30<UnderBuilder>no, the ultimate conversion should be: C64!
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Draakon: who is listed as "the descendant of newgrf gods"?
17:31<Draakon>hmm question: if i am running 2048x2 map and save while not pause, does savegame get damaged or something while i do save on pause on the same map?
17:31<pv2b>i wonder if you could hack together some kind of remote display driver for openttd, like a kind of light-weight vnc, but slightly better, with local graphics rendering from cached bitmaps
17:31<Draakon>i dont know Eddi
17:31<ln->Draakon: that's quite a thin map
17:31<pv2b>then you could run it on practically anything
17:31<UnderBuilder>what about segacd?
17:31<Rubidium>Draakon: the savegame only gets damaged when the application gets killed abruptly
17:32<Rubidium>(or your hardware is really broken)
17:32<Draakon>ok
17:32<+glx>and you can't issue 2 save commands at the same time
17:33<Rubidium>because for the actual saving the game is always paused; it's only the compression and writeback to the disk that is done asynchroniously
17:33<UnderBuilder>(megadrive cartridges has got 40mb limit, thats why I said segacd)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>glx: i think he meant autosave and manual save
17:33<Draakon>ok
17:35<pv2b>finally, openttd should clearly be ported to the web 2.0 platform.
17:35<pv2b>then you could use your cell phone web browsers to play. or something.
17:36<peter__>ajaxttd :o
17:36<pv2b>;-)
17:36<pv2b>then you could also add some myface integration or something
17:37<peter__>:o
17:37<peter__>http://fuzzle.org/o/engines2.png < multiple vehicle sets ahoy
17:38<Draakon>dbset and us set work togheter
17:38<peter__>ok, maybe a bit too many...
17:38<Draakon>well almost
17:38<peter__>Draakon, no they don't
17:38<Draakon>yes they do
17:38<peter__>they just don't disable each other, heh
17:38<Draakon>i have dbset and usset loaded at the same time
17:38<peter__>yes
17:38<peter__>but the vehicles will be messed up
17:40<Draakon>i want to get the same effect with UKRS and DBset but fail as one only shows up
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>Draakon: why do you even try if you got told it wasn't possible multiple times?
17:41<SmatZ>peter__: is the NSW XP-Class using the right GRF ?
17:41<Draakon>because i want, and it wasnt sayed multiple times
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17:44<peter__>SmatZ, yes
17:45<peter__>it works nwo
17:45<peter__>i fixed that bug
17:45<SmatZ>ah, ok :)
17:47<peter__>and saveload works... without a savegame bump
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17:50[~]pv2b is playing on a server with the latest nightly, but nobody else is :-/
17:52|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
17:52<Tekky>what is a savegame bump? Is that changing the version number of the savegame format?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:52<Tekky>thx
18:05<peter__>yeah
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18:29<Sacro>right then, what did i miss?
18:30<peter__>me playing with as many vehicle sets loaded as possible?
18:30<Sacro>peter__: zomg picspls
18:30<Sacro>picsplz even :p
18:30<Gonozal_VIII>you missed nothing, i wasn't here so nothing could have happened
18:31<peter__>Sacro, scroll back about an hour, heh
18:31<Sacro>peter__: i am going through my irssi logs
18:31<Sacro>up to 20:02
18:33<pv2b>Rubidium: you want to know why nobody plays the nightly online? because nobody plays the nightlies online :-/
18:33<Sacro>Rubidium: cos Brianetta stopped his nightly UKRS server :(
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>nobody plays the nightlies online with advertise
18:34<peter__>hmm, i should set up another server some time
18:34<pv2b>there's one nightly server online right now
18:34<pv2b>but i'm the only person on it
18:34<Sacro>peter__: yes, i did enjoy your nightly server too
18:34<Sacro>pv2b: grfs?
18:34<pv2b>Sacro: standard, tempereate.
18:34<peter__>no grfs is boring :o
18:34<Sacro>tempereate? :o
18:34<pv2b>temperate.
18:35<peter__>anyway
18:35<pv2b>yeah. temperate is boring compared to other climates, but still.
18:35<peter__>night night
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18:38<Sacro>oh noes, my logs ><
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>they h4xx0r3d y00
18:40<pv2b>what about your logs?
18:41<Sacro>pv2b: i was reading them
18:41<Sacro>and when i closed the window, irssi lost them :(
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>cat /wherever/your/logfiles/are/stored.log?
18:42<pv2b>Sacro: dcc.
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>i am sure he could find the logs if he really wanted to :p
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>!logs
18:42<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>like this
18:42<Sacro>pv2b: cheers
18:43<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: yes, cat sucks though
18:43<Arbitrary>train timetabling - how about "synchronous" orders, like shared orders but only one vehicle is allowed to occupy one order on the list at once, they all swap orders at the same time when they're all ready? hmm
18:43<pv2b>Sacro: they're not complete though
18:43<pv2b>Arbitrary: that'd be awesome, but it's already implementable if you have a dedicated line for those two trais
18:43<pv2b>using signals
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>Arbitrary: that is quite stupid...
18:44<pv2b>really, i think timetabling should more generally be able to enforce consistent spacing between vehicles
18:44<pv2b>there was this patch on the forams that did that i think
18:44<Brianetta>timetabling absolutely positively definitely needs one thing
18:44<Brianetta>time
18:44<Brianetta>at the moment, all we have is a table.
18:45<pv2b>it has time
18:45<Brianetta>So, is the 17:15 from Pruntingville running latE?
18:45<pv2b>click it and find out. you won't know it was late until it arrives though :-)
18:45<Arbitrary>pv2b - now do it with busses :)
18:46<Brianetta>Exactly.
18:46<Brianetta>The time should pass at one minute per day.
18:46<Prof_Frink>Schoedinger's train.
18:46<Brianetta>There should be a 123 hour clock.
18:46<Brianetta>12 hour
18:46<Brianetta>12 hours per day
18:46<pv2b>simutrans does 24 hours per month
18:46<Brianetta>and an order should have a time associated with it, and a repetition interval.
18:46<pv2b>so the current time is something like 12:00 March 1959
18:47<Brianetta>pv2b: That's the idea, yes
18:47<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: DAMN YOU FOR MENTIONING MY PBS "ISSUES"
18:47<Brianetta>and I've notplayed Simutrans since it was a shite alpha
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18:47<pv2b>me neither
18:47<pv2b>is simutrans nonshite yet?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: i knew that'd come sooner or later :p
18:47<Brianetta>no idea
18:47<pv2b>i dunno since it won't run on my ppc mac
18:47<Brianetta>I disliked it for putting too much track down at junctions
18:47<pv2b>it has some cool concepts though
18:47<Brianetta>You can't just have a fork, oh no
18:47<pv2b>at least when i last checked it out
18:47<Sacro>and curses to Brianetta for bringing it up in the forums and irc :p
18:47<Brianetta>got to be a three-way
18:47[~]Sacro quite fancies a 3 way
18:48<pv2b>i liked cargo destinations in simutrans.
18:48<Brianetta>Sacro: You'd even settle for a fork
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18:48<pv2b>i dislike the fact that hajo seems to be too insecure to release it as open source :-/
18:48<Sacro>Brianetta: depends what is on the prongs
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18:49<Sacro>yes, a crashed train released the track when the front engine got clearerd
18:50<Sacro>but when there is still all the wagons on the line
18:50<Sacro>RIP all 8 trains :( t'was a sad day
18:50<Sacro>for me anyway
18:50<Sacro>I think Brianetta found it quite amusing
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18:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11749 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Fix (r11352): when a bankrupted company is bought, reset vehicle color mapping so the vehicles use the new owner color
18:52<Gonozal_VIII>sacro... easy fix: let the wagons be removed first and engine last
18:52<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: or not clear the TC until everything has gone
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm... does the tropic renewal set not enforce being in tropic climate or is there something wrong with the "activate compatible grfs" routine?
18:53<Brianetta>I just checked. Simutrans still has over-simplified track laying, meaning no simple forks. Therefore, it is still shite.
18:53<Gonozal_VIII>but i guess that's not so easy because the reservation depends on the engine id?
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have an old dbset/alpine game which had tropic renewal set in the list (inactive), and when i load that game, the mail wagons of the dbset get overriden
18:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11750 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Revert (r11749): commited too much
18:57<Sacro>glx: whoops :p
18:57<+glx>may happen :)
18:57<Gonozal_VIII>whoops happens
18:58[~]pv2b curiously investigates what glx committed by mistake :-)
18:59<Sacro>hmm, sort code...
19:00<pv2b>glx: hey, is that code in progress so that shift-click predition of costs takes into account town ratings? :-)
19:01<+glx>not for shift click
19:01<+glx>but the dry run before the real execution
19:01<+glx>related to FS#1616
19:02<pv2b>ah
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19:12<pv2b>what does tractive effort mean in the new realistic train acceleration anyway? how is the tractive effort different from raw power?
19:13<Gonozal_VIII>you can't accelerate when your wheels slip
19:13<pv2b>ah, i understand
19:13<pv2b>larger weight->more t.e.
19:13<pv2b>which is why a diesel even though it has more power, has a lower tractive effort
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>also: only driven axles count for t.e.
19:14<Gonozal_VIII>depends on more factors i guess... shape of the wheels, number of wheels, metal that the wheels are made of...
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>a 2'C1' engine usually has lower TE than a D or E engine
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>but probably behaves better on high speeds
19:16<pv2b>F = ma, P = Fv.... hmm. :-)
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19:19<Gonozal_VIII>a 75ps tractor can pull more logs through the forrest than a 300ps sports car :-)
19:20<Gonozal_VIII>(don't try this at home kids)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you put 2'C1' engines in front of passenger trains and E engines in front of wood trains :p
19:21<Tekky>has anyone tested hertogjan's physics patch? His description sounds interesting to me: http://home.tiscali.nl/mwdifa10/openttd/patch_physics.html
19:21<pv2b>damn, this should be easy
19:21<Tekky>However, I don't know if the patch itself is good.
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>modern engines mostly have Bo'Bo'
19:21<pv2b>i mean, it's just simple kinematics, but i'm kinda having a hard time understanding this right now. i'm going to have to mess around with the numbers a bit :-)
19:22<pv2b>was a few years since i studied that.
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>which physics patch do we actually have in the game?
19:25<Tekky>good question :) I have no idea....
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19:27<Arbitrary>http://www.twoof.freeserve.co.uk/motion1.htm <-- this any use?
19:28<Rubidium>Tekky: very interesting that you can run a steam engine at way above their designed maximum speed, but is that realistic?
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19:32<Tekky>well, if it is downhill, it seems certainly realistic :)
19:32<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think that would be good for the engine
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>think Back to the Future III ;)
19:33<Tekky>hehe, I forgot what exactly happened there... I remember only very vaguely.
19:33<Tekky>they used a speeding steam engine to trigger the time machine or something like that :)
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>yeah ;)
19:34<Sacro>zomg, 88mph
19:34[~]Sacro grabs teh flux capacitor
19:34<Gonozal_VIII>that's nice, you could arrive before you even started
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>88mph is not even a high speed...
19:35<Tekky>ah, yes, I remember now :) The time machine only worked at that speed :)
19:37<Tekky>As far as I know, acceleration with the current realistic acceleration patch is a constant force. In reality, however, trains start accelerating faster and then stop accelerating gradually, before they reach their maximum speed. This is similar to a car.
19:39<Gonozal_VIII>no it's not constant
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>when you overload a train, you can see that
19:41<Gonozal_VIII>it slowly reaches a point below its max speed where it can't accelerate anymore
19:42<Sacro>and then engages the warp drives
19:43<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
19:44<Gonozal_VIII>transition drive
19:44<Gonozal_VIII>or linear :-)
19:47<Gonozal_VIII>linear drive puts you in a bubble where normal physics don't apply and you can reach a million times the speed of light :-)
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19:48<Tekky>aha, maybe I don't observe these effects because I am using Leviathan 4 trains.
19:49<Tekky>that is the best maglev train.
19:49<Tekky>I guess the acceleration is near constant with these trains, even if I have a train length of 24 (12 tiles long)
19:49<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: bloody germans, shutting down our motorways
19:50<Gonozal_VIII>maglev trains can accelerate linear
19:50<Gonozal_VIII>you can just put more energy through the track when the air resistance increases
19:50<Tekky>aha, that's why....
19:52<Gonozal_VIII>your only limit with accelerating a maglev train is the safety of the passengers :-)
19:53<Gonozal_VIII>but in the game the maglev engines have horsepower... so they should also accelerate slower if you overload them
19:54<pv2b>it's reasonable for maglev engines to have horsepower
19:54<pv2b>there's a limit to how many amps you can feed
19:55<Sacro>1.21 JIGGAWATTS?
19:55<pv2b>jigga-what?
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
19:55<Sacro>someone knows :p
19:56<ln->Sacro: are you talking about jigowatts?
19:56<Sacro>ln-: possibly
19:56<ln->even probably
19:57<Sacro>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCRUvX2D0E for those who don't udnerstand ( and yes it is on topic )
19:57<@Belugas>hehe
19:57<@Belugas>i have not done a thing, Sacro ;)
19:57<Sacro>Belugas: makes a change...
19:58<@Belugas>lol
19:58<ln->Sacro: they have mis-spelled jigo
19:58<Sacro>ln-: tis technically gigawatt
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnqtXOi1iaY <-- hehe
19:59<pv2b>giga pronounced as "jiga" actually isn't wrong, it's archaic but not wrong :-)
19:59<ln->Sacro: it was "jigowatt" in the script of the movie, i've been told.
19:59<Sacro>yes, true
20:00<ln->this looks interesting, and the comments are funny: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4355
20:00<pv2b>ln-: probably quite illegal too :-)
20:01<Sacro>well the UK has followed the germans
20:01<Sacro>most software on my laptop will soon be illegal
20:06<Gonozal_VIII>?
20:07<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: See el reg
20:10<Sacro>ooh
20:10<Sacro>le reg!
20:11<UnderBuilder>le reg?
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>wasn't hard to find out what el reg was supposed to mean but there are hundreds of articles
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21:00<bumblebee>hello, can someone tell me were to find the list over the hot keys? :)
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21:03<Gonozal_VIII>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Hotkeys
21:04<Gonozal_VIII>google is your friend ;-)
21:04<bumblebee>ah, sorry, ofc is it :P
21:04<bumblebee>ty
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21:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11751 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Enumify some widgets (and others) and while at it, apply some code style
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22:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11752 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix(r11745): Silence a MSVC warning (glx)
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22:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11753 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp:
22:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: re-indent the switch case structures, as to be more code style oriented.
22:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Hoping it makes the whole file easier to follow/read
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22:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r11754 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix(r11753): One too much command separator (;). Thanks glx for spotting
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 04 00:00:46 2008