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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-10

---Logopened Thu Jan 10 00:00:40 2008
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02:46<Ailure>forum is down?
02:46<Ailure>Or is it my connection bein gD: again
02:46<Noldo>seems to be
02:51<@Belugas>forums,svn,openttd.org
02:51<@Belugas>EVERYTHING!!!!
02:51<peter__>yeah :/
02:51<@Belugas>CAN'T LIVE!!!
02:51<@Belugas>mmh... can't sleep either :S
02:51<peter__>yeah
02:51<peter__>was going to say, you're up late :o
02:52<Ailure>well
02:52<Ailure>I realized whatever I needed
02:52<Ailure>is on the openttdcoop site
02:52<Ailure>so :)
02:52<peter__>latest build?
02:52<peter__>current svn
02:53<peter__>bug tracker?
02:53<peter__>they're all needed ;)
02:53<Ailure>;p
02:53<Ailure>true I guess
02:53<@Belugas>bug tracker? naaa... this one can rest in peace ;)
02:54<Ailure>Call it a vacation
02:54<Ailure>if you must :)
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02:56<@Belugas>ok... i guess i should re-try the sleep battle
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03:16<Rubidium>Belugas: the translator, wiki and flyspray do still work ;)
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04:30<canatella>hello
04:30-!-Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
04:31<canatella>is the web site down ?
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04:43<Digitalfox>canatella: It seems so..
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04:54<l_Blue_l>Is it just me or is the tt-forums website down atm?
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05:02<l_Blue_l>yay tt-forums is working for me now.
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06:54<alekcxjo>saluton / hello
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06:55<keyweed>ave / hallo / bonjour / hello / guten tag
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07:40<Roujin>g'day
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08:07<alekcxjo>help!
08:07<alekcxjo>i'v problem to compile
08:07<alekcxjo>i receive: configure: error: libpng depends on zlib, which couldn't be found / was disabled
08:08<alekcxjo>but zlib IS installed...
08:08<Roujin>what os?
08:08<alekcxjo>linux ubuntu 7.10
08:08<keyweed>you need a diff zlib package. i had the same problem
08:09<keyweed>now i can only remember wich...
08:09<alekcxjo>and what should i make?
08:09<keyweed>you need to apt(itude) one of these: zlib-bin zlib1g zlib1g-dev zlibc
08:09<keyweed>or just all of them
08:10<alekcxjo>ok thanks :)
08:10<Rubidium>zlib1g-dev should be enough
08:10<Rubidium>and libpng-dev
08:10-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
08:10<roboman>gnight
08:12<alekcxjo>it works!
08:12<alekcxjo>:D
08:13<Sacro>guten morgen
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r11805 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#1620]: VEHICLE_TRIGGER_EMPTY was triggered continuously while train waiting in station.
08:14<Sacro>svn command not found
08:14<Sacro>:(
08:14<alekcxjo>apt-get install svn ^^
08:15<alekcxjo>(without ^^)
08:15<SpComb>subversion
08:15<Sacro>aot-get command not found
08:15<Sacro>err
08:15<Sacro>apt-get command not found
08:15*SpComb banishes the ark linux troll
08:15*Sacro ponders who he is referring to
08:16<Sacro>SpComb: no ark linux trolls here afaik
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08:16<SpComb>you know exactly who I was referring to
08:16<SpComb>I've trolled about this before
08:16<Sacro>probably me, but you got the wrong distro
08:16<SpComb>I got exactly the distro I inteded to
08:16<Sacro>yeah...
08:17*Sacro huggles *ARCH* linux
08:17*Sacro ignores SpComb
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08:22<alekcxjo>when i launch ./openttd in /bin
08:23<alekcxjo>it's launched like if i'd make ./openttd -D
08:23<alekcxjo>as a dedicaced server...
08:24<alekcxjo>when i launch ./openttd in /bin
08:24<alekcxjo>it's launched like if i'd make ./openttd -D
08:25<alekcxjo>as a dedicaced server...
08:25<alekcxjo>...
08:25<alekcxjo>why?
08:25-!-alekcxjo [~alexandre@oul69-2-82-236-16-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Learn esperanto]
08:40<SpComb>configure --dedicated?
08:43<Sacro>oooh
08:43-!-Mark [~Mark@5351EA48.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
08:43<Sacro>xft antialiasing looks goooooooorgeous
08:45<Sacro>SpComb: actually, i have the same problem
08:45<Sacro>installing SDL may help
08:45<SpComb>and ./configure --with-sdl, if it's not on by default
08:45<Sacro>it is
08:45<Sacro>i'd just not installed SDL yet
08:46<Sacro>i think i might try xmonad out
08:46<Sacro>i quite fancy the idea of a tiling wm
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08:47<@Belugas>hooo my god! a commit by a non-dev :S
08:47<Sacro>Belugas: when?
08:47<@Belugas>ho.. wait... he's a dev !
08:47*Sacro takes the whisky from Belugas
08:50<@Belugas>@openttd commit 11805
08:50<@DorpsGek>Belugas: Commit by frosch :: r11805 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2008-01-10 13:13:18 UTC)
08:50<@DorpsGek>Belugas: -Fix [FS#1620]: VEHICLE_TRIGGER_EMPTY was triggered continuously while train waiting in station.
08:50<@Belugas>that :)
08:50<@Belugas>no whisky at all...
08:50*Belugas is more on rhum
08:50<@Belugas>and not in the morning ;)
08:50<Sacro>rum?
08:51<@Belugas>the pirate drink ?
08:51<@Belugas>rhum?
08:51<@Belugas>rome?
08:51<@Belugas>rum?
08:51<@Belugas>rhume?
08:52<frosch123>rum.
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08:55<Sacro>!seen smatz
08:55<Sacro>@seen smatz
08:55<@DorpsGek>Sacro: smatz was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 53 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <SmatZ> :-D flying car
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08:58<@Belugas>rum it will be. don't fight 2 against 1
08:59<Sacro>i need a nice linux IDE for C++
09:00<+glx>eclipse?
09:01<Sacro>glx: is it that good? it always bugs me
09:01-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
09:01<+glx>dunno, never used
09:01<Sacro>i'm just installing monodevelop now, but that's more for uni
09:11<Roujin>for anyone who likes my patches, i uploaded i pack with all of them in the forums :P well gotta go now, already late for some lesson at uni xD
09:11<Roujin>bye
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09:33<dihedral>has anybody looked at the issue with setting company pass from mac and win?
09:33<dihedral>rephrase
09:33<dihedral>has anybody had a chance to have a look at
09:33<dihedral>^^
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09:38<Draakon>hello
09:45<Sacro>dihedral: first sentance is better
09:45<dihedral>ok
09:45<dihedral>then use that one ^^
09:45<Sacro>because you don't care whether someone had the chance to look at it
09:45<Sacro>but whether someone actually did
09:45<dihedral>no
09:45<dihedral>not quite true
09:46<dihedral>because i am quite aware that there is more to live than just this game and it's code
09:46<Sacro>oh i doubt that
09:46<Sacro>*its
09:46<dihedral>and i dont want to in any way imply that i care for the code more than for what goes around other people
09:49<Sacro>pfft :p
09:49-!-LA[lord] [~chatzilla@ip157.cab20.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
09:49<Draakon>Hi LA
09:52<dihedral>Sacro: have you actually heared of that?
09:52<dihedral>the issue i mean ^^
09:53<Sacro>dihedral: yes i have
09:53<Sacro>but i have LE :p
09:53<LA[lord]>hi
09:54<Draakon>can anyone tell me what line of code and where should i change/remove to disable closure of Industries
09:54<Sacro>Draakon: there is a patch in dev forum
09:55<Draakon>i know
09:55<Sacro>read it ;)
09:55<Draakon>but options arent seperated
09:55-!-Diabolic-Angel [~dia@xdsl-213-196-231-247.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd
09:55<Draakon>and i want to disable only closure of industries
09:55<Draakon>not opening too
09:55<dihedral>!!
09:56<dihedral>then look at the patch and edit the source after you applied it
09:57<Draakon>i don't know C++
09:58-!-Greyscale is now known as Greysc[a]le
09:58<dihedral>so basically you are asking for someone to make you a patch so that you dont have to learn or do any work
09:58<Draakon>no
09:58-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
09:58<Draakon>i am asking what and where to change
09:58-!-Greyscale is now known as Greysc[a]le
09:59<dihedral>which in affect is the same
09:59<dihedral>:-P
09:59-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
09:59<dihedral>have a look at the patch and see if you can make head's and/or tails of it
10:00<Draakon>http://paste.openttd.org/404 will this line of code do the work?
10:02<dihedral>well - give you 2 ideas ^^
10:02<dihedral>as static bool CheckIndustryCloseDownProtection sais, it returnes true or false
10:02<dihedral>set it to one of them compile and see what happens, if it does not work, try setting it to the other ^^
10:02<@Belugas>if i'm not mistaken, this code handles conditional closure of grf industries
10:02*Belugas checks
10:03<dihedral>hello Belugas
10:03<Draakon>hmm then what about this here? http://paste.openttd.org/405
10:04<Draakon>as this seems to be the code that makes no closures for industries
10:04<dihedral>good
10:04<dihedral>what is the code that looks like it's stopic it to open indus?
10:04<dihedral>*stoping
10:05<Draakon>ah'
10:05<Draakon>this looks like to be it: if (i->prod_level == 4) closeit = true;
10:05<Draakon>well i try
10:06<+glx>Draakon: don't touch this
10:06<@Belugas>wrong place, wromg code
10:06<dihedral>give him a chance to find out for himself :-P
10:06<Draakon>why not?
10:06<Draakon>dihedral: your not being very helpfull here
10:06<dihedral>i am
10:06<dihedral>just you will only realize later on
10:06<+glx>because a prod_level of 4 means it's already too late
10:07<dihedral>Draakon: it's more helpful if people are not given the answer, but shown how the answer can be found ^^
10:07<dihedral>and if it then still does not work after a few failed tries
10:08<@Belugas>preventing an industry closure by code can be in many ways.
10:08<Draakon>dihedral: depends from people from people
10:08<@Belugas>preventing production to drop below 4 is one
10:08<dihedral>yes - depends how lazy people are
10:08<@Belugas>and the most secure one
10:09<Draakon>hmm i think i try to change the patch tottaly
10:09<dihedral>Draakon: big hint, dont edit the patch file itself, rather apply the patch and then edit the files
10:10<Draakon>why?
10:11<Draakon>because Tourtise SVN will get some errors if trying to apply it?
10:11<dihedral>one just does not edit patch files unless one _really_ knows what he/she is doing
10:12<Draakon>k i understand(hopefully)
10:13<dihedral>^^
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10:16<Draakon>does somebody knows how long it takes for a coal mine to close if no one is servicing it?
10:18<LA[lord]>it has to have extremely low production.,.
10:18<LA[lord]>and that totally depends..
10:19<Sacro>it like totally does ^^
10:19<dihedral>open it in a scenario editor, set prod very low, then play it
10:20<Draakon>ah what the heck i just use the whole patch instead
10:20<Draakon>:P
10:20*Draakon starts compiling
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10:25*Draakon wonders what patch most people want into the trunk? i mean which is top 1 in the Whishlist
10:25<Draakon>anyone knows perhaps?
10:26<dihedral>all the decently coded bug fixing ones ^^
10:26<dihedral>where 'decently' = according to coding guidline
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10:26<Noldo>what do you mean by people?
10:27<dihedral>hehe
10:27-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd
10:27<Draakon>Noldo: you don't know English word, people?
10:29<Draakon>dihedral: most people want feature patches
10:29<dihedral>that is because the poeple you consider as 'most' are noobish players
10:30<dihedral>ok - perhaps drop the word 'noobish'
10:30<Draakon>http://paste.openttd.org/406 :S why do i get this error?
10:30<LA[lord]>those *feature* patches just consist of big amount of bugs usually :D
10:30<dihedral>hehe
10:30<LA[lord]>or ideas which change gameplay dramatically
10:31<LA[lord]>in the suggestion forums...
10:31<dihedral>r11786_added_bugs_feature.diff
10:31<LA[lord]>?
10:31<LA[lord]>bugs feature???
10:31<dihedral>you can switch the bugs on in the 'patches' controll windows ^^
10:31<LA[lord]>hehe
10:32<LA[lord]>a server option -> desync player 4
10:32<dihedral>LOL
10:32<Draakon>ah nvm about my problem, i need to download newer patch
10:32<LA[lord]>that would be mean.. wouldn't it :D
10:32<dihedral>Draakon: was about to ask what rev the patch was for
10:32<dihedral>LA i think i might do that - would only be a server side thing
10:33<dihedral>and then all clients named 'Player' get 'desynced' ^^
10:33<dihedral>hehehe
10:33<Draakon>another server option: destroy certain company creations, everything
10:33<LA[lord]>dih is meanie
10:34<dihedral>yes - Draakon, that would be reset_company x
10:34<Draakon>i meant the diffrent way
10:34<Draakon>keep the company and money
10:34<dihedral>!
10:34<Draakon>but not what he owns
10:35<LA[lord]>and dih.. I always forget to set my name before connecting, so I join as player and then change name...
10:35<LA[lord]>so your feature would rule me out :D'
10:36<Draakon>that desync one will be good
10:36<Draakon>as if you want to kick a certan player but not really say for them that they have been kicked
10:36<LA[lord]>mhmh
10:37<LA[lord]>but then they try to reconnect... and desync again.. and again and finally submit a bug report :D
10:37<dihedral>lol
10:37<Draakon>that one is more efficent
10:37<Draakon>IMO
10:43<+glx><Draakon> http://paste.openttd.org/406 :S why do i get this error? <-- because you applied the patch multiple times
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10:44<dihedral>LOL
10:51<Draakon>oh
10:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11806 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix (r11793) [FS#1638]: sign inversion when updating income and expenses
10:52<Draakon>i need to get new revision then
10:52<Draakon>of source
10:53<+glx>Draakon: you need to remove command_queue.cpp before patching (as it is created by the patch)
10:53<Draakon>i update the revision itself as it need to be updated
10:54*glx slaps Noldo for r11806
10:55<Noldo>sorry
10:55<Draakon>?
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10:58<Draakon>what happens if for exaple i apply a patch that is meant for r11781 to a r11765?
10:58<Draakon>example*
10:59<+glx>it may or may not work
10:59<egladil>it might or might not work
10:59<pm|work>@draakon: you may be fine or you may introduce any behaviour up to crashing your computer with the compiled executable.
10:59<Draakon>k
11:02<Draakon>:S why do i get invalid chunk size error if i have r11766 but the scenario was created with r11556 and maps that have been created with older revision not?
11:03<+glx>using any patches?
11:04<dihedral>he is trying to play the osqc scenario in his just compiled no_indu_closedown binary
11:04<Draakon>no
11:04<Draakon>not that one
11:04<Noldo>glx: I take my sorry back(or part of it) "+p->cur_economy.expenses += cost.GetCost();" says the diff I applied to FS
11:04<Draakon>a personal one that i made
11:04<dihedral>your ecs one?
11:04<dihedral>you found it again?
11:04<Draakon>you mean the example on?
11:04<dihedral>yes
11:05<Draakon>not that one either
11:05-!-mikl [~mikl@0x5733cec6.bynxx19.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:06<+glx>Noldo: and it should be "+p->cur_economy.expenses -= cost.GetCost();" as it was with the old code
11:06<Draakon>but you did reminder one thing to me
11:07<Draakon>actually 2 things
11:09<Draakon>thanks for remindering it, dihedral
11:12<dihedral>:-P
11:13<Draakon>i know that devs use compiling farm, but is it home made?
11:15-!-mikl [~mikl@0x5733cec6.bynxx19.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
11:20<dihedral>i believe TrueBrain developed it
11:22<Draakon>k just asking
11:23<dihedral>and if i am not mistaken, it is 'just' there for the nightlies
11:24<Draakon>google tour bus made a crash into tree too.
11:27-!-SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
11:28<Draakon>:S
11:29<Draakon>i found a bug in 11798 concerning new grf industries being opened, non patched game
11:30<dihedral>explain
11:30-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-171-87-247.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has joined #openttd
11:31<Draakon>a scenario was made with only one town and no industries
11:31<Draakon>using ECS Vectors
11:31<Draakon>a Industry was made
11:31<Draakon>and half news paper then seen
11:31<Draakon>and Game decided to make a crash then
11:31<+glx>what kind of crash?
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11:33<Draakon>game displays a error once above is occured
11:33<+glx>something like assertion failed?
11:33<Draakon>yes
11:34<Draakon>i see if i can recreate
11:34<+glx>retry in 11804 :)
11:34<dihedral>^^
11:34<Draakon>later
11:35<Draakon>but it isnt avabile to download
11:35<dihedral>now - it's available via svn
11:35<dihedral>*no
11:35<+glx>you can compile it yourself
11:35<Draakon>wtf? ai is wierd now too
11:35<Draakon>i have 2 ai players
11:35<Draakon>one green other blue
11:36<+glx>it always has been
11:36<Draakon>green had a statoion and a depot in a town
11:36<SmatZ>it has never been non-weird
11:36<Draakon>then blue was able to overwrite his station over green
11:36<Draakon>like he demolished it
11:36<SmatZ>Draakon: did he buy the green player?
11:37<Draakon>no
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11:40<Draakon>as i have never seen nothing like this before
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11:44<Noldo>glx: ok, guilty of not able to read a diff too
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12:26<Wolf01>hello
12:27<Draakon>argh
12:28<Draakon>a industry in ECS Vectors is causing assertion failed errors
12:31<@Belugas>would you be kind enough to update your repo to HEAD revision, as it has been suggeted to you Draakon? It has been fixed
12:31<Draakon>cant currently
12:33<@Belugas>well... can you recompile? i can give you the fix
12:33<Wolf01>or wait 1:26 hours...
12:34<@Belugas>http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/patches/bugs/fs1636.patch
12:34<@Belugas>there
12:34<Draakon>cant
12:34<Draakon>currently
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12:34<@Belugas>too bad for you, sorry for you. nothing to do aobut it
12:34<Draakon>i know
12:36<Wolf01>any new feature being worked to be included in trunk 'soon'?
12:36<@Belugas>what?? and spoil the fun??? naaaa.... ;)
12:36<Draakon>please tell us
12:36<Wolf01>:)
12:36<Draakon>:P
12:37<@Belugas>And Silence Falls on the Channel
12:37<Roujin>still working on the one you told me? :P
12:38<Roujin>or dropped that for something else? :P
12:38<Draakon>after which follows of opening new shop at a random map in a town called: stanwell
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12:38<Draakon>a nuclear shop
12:38<Draakon>:D
12:39<@Belugas>Roujin, not recently, doing bug fixes and real life ;)
12:39<Roujin>i see ;)
12:39<Roujin>yeah real life does have some nasty bugs...
12:39<Roujin>glad to hear you're fixing them xD
12:39<Draakon>so a map with seed no. 546853584 with no. of towns set to low and no. of indus to medium with no grfs is no more usable
12:40<Draakon>real life has bugs? since when?
12:41<Roujin>you don't agree? oO
12:41-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-171-87-247.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:41<Roujin>it's freakin' buggy :P
12:41-!-Octave [~chatzilla@79-68-62-206.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
12:42<@Belugas>well... when you're programming in a paied job, yeah, real life has bugs :D
12:42-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-171-87-247.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has joined #openttd
12:42<Roujin>e.g. the whole women thing... whoever coded them must have had one beer too much ;)
12:44<Octave>Hello there.
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12:48<Roujin>sooo.. is flyspray still the right place to go when you have a patch you'd like to see included in trunk?
12:49<Roujin>there's this mailbox aswell.. i dunno :/
12:58-!-Desolator [Desolator@82.79.212.223] has joined #openttd
12:58<Desolator>hi guys
12:59-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
12:59<@Belugas>Roujin, FlySpray in deed, the mail box seems a bit dead... TrueBrain does not manage it anymore, nor can i
13:00<Desolator>Does anyone know what form is recomended in C++: `int main()' or `int main(void)'? What I know is that in C `int main()' has unknown parameters (although that's obsolete in C99), while `int main(void)' takes no parameters, but what is the form recommended by the C++ standard?
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13:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r11807 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Make Action5 handler more upwards- and TTDP-compatible by allowing specifiing more sprites than needed.
13:02<+glx>Desolator: int main(int argc, char *argv[])
13:03<Desolator>no, if I don't need the arguments
13:03<+glx>anyway void is not needed for c++
13:03<Desolator>(MSVC++ stars to yell if it finds unused variables...even arguments in main!)
13:03<ln->Desolator: and Stroustrup himself thinks function(void) is ugly.
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13:06<pavel1269>hi
13:06-!-dih [~dihedral@dslb-088-064-168-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
13:07<Desolator>ok, now what extensino would you recommend for headers? I currently use .hpp, but I don't see it too common
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13:33<DaleStan>ln-: But what does he say about "function()"? I got the impression that "function(void)" was ugly because the correct form was "function()".
13:34<ln->huh?
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13:35<DaleStan>Re Stroustrup. (Sorry, failed to note timestamps)
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13:41<ln->DaleStan: I know what you were talking about, but I don't understand what do you mean by "But what does he say about "function()"?"
13:42<ln->since you already said function() is the correct form, as it is.
13:43<ln->so made me wonder if you say there is some semantical difference between function() and function(void).
13:45<Desolator>[20:07] <Desolator> ok, now what extension would you recommend for headers? I currently use .hpp, but I don't see it too common
13:45<DaleStan>To my knowledge, there's no semantic difference. And never mind; I didn't read enough scrollback and thought you were replying to a later line.
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13:46<DaleStan>I always use .h for everything; some people use .hpp for C++ and .h for C. I chose .h mostly because it means I don't have to type as much when writing #includes.
13:47<blathijs>DaleStan: So, you've also named files "a.h", "b.h", etc? :-p
13:47<SmatZ>blathijs: exactly :-D
13:47<SmatZ>or ".h" for really often needed include
13:49<DaleStan>Not quite that bad, but close. I've done quite a few "????.h" And that's not a header file, SmatZ. If the first character is a dot, it does not start the extension, Window's impressions to the contrary notwithstanding.
13:53<blathijs>I think you could also just say #include "a" though
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13:55<+glx>yes you can #include anything as you can compile anything
13:56<+glx>extensions don't matter for preprocessor and compiler
13:56<SmatZ>maybe you could write a macro
13:56<SmatZ>to have "#include" shorter
13:57<ln->i don't think that's possible.
13:57<ln->without writing your own pre-processor.
13:57<+glx>pre-preprocessor ;)
13:57<ln->although.. i haven't tried
13:59<ln->but, no, it doesn't seem to be possible.
13:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11808 /trunk/config.lib:
13:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: remember --with-ccache in config.cache
13:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: shuffle params a bit, sort params in save_params_array in the same order as the table above
14:00<SmatZ>ln-: all #include, #if, #define ... are preprocessor directives, it should be possible to define that macro
14:00<SmatZ>preprocessor does macro expansion, too
14:01<ln->SmatZ: ok, show me an example.
14:01<SmatZ>but ... depends how preprocessor and compiler are divided in gcc
14:01<Octave>Excuse me... I have a question. Is there a place on the web, where you can organise multiplayer games with other people? I want to have a multiplayer game using a few newgrfs, but nobody is joining my server. I'm just bored with the original train set and stations...
14:02<@Belugas>Octave, yu can try the tt-forums, or just advertize it in here :)
14:02<pavel1269>:)
14:03<SmatZ>ln-: ok, it doesn't work
14:03<SmatZ>macro cannot insert #
14:04<Wolf01>r11808 smatz 2008-01-10 19:59:16 +0100 (Thu, 10 Jan 2008) eheh just in time :P
14:05*Desolator wonders why `#pragma once' isn't in the C++ standard
14:05<SmatZ>Wolf01: :-x
14:05-!-Brianetta [~brian@77-103-231-158.cable.ubr05.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:06<ln->Desolator: is there any #pragma in the standard? except for the #pragma directive itself.
14:06<Desolator>SmatZ: you're an ottd dev? I don't think I've seen you before, what's your username on the forums?
14:07<Octave>Well... If anybody feels like a game, the server is called !!UKRS+addon+newstats!!...
14:08<SmatZ>Desolator: my nick on forums is a bit strange :-x http://tt-forums.net/search.php?author_id=13268&sr=posts
14:09*Sacro returns
14:09<pavel1269>Octave: newstats? isnt that a patch?
14:10<Wolf01>oh noes, batman returned
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14:11<Desolator>SmatZ: Hmm, since when you're a dev?
14:12<@Belugas>quite a few revs, already :)
14:12<pavel1269>)
14:14-!-jonisdead [~chatzilla@33.166.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #openttd
14:14<Desolator>well, since it's the first time I see you commiting code (and I've looked at the loga quite often), I'll say Congratulations!
14:14<Octave>Uhh, what I meant by that is the 'New Stations V.0.42'... I started a new server to avoid confusion, '!!UKRS+addon+newstV0.42!!'
14:15<pavel1269>:)
14:16<SmatZ>Desolator: maybe two months :)
14:16<SmatZ>Desolator: thanks :-)
14:16<pavel1269>no damages, advanced loading, 20+ station wide, year under 1975 and you could met me sometimes :)
14:17<SmatZ>Desolator: my first manual commit was r11456 :)
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14:22<Octave>Are those things patches? I'm quite new to openttd, multiplayer that is, I have been playing TT for about 12 years now though, I had a demo of it when it first came out that you could only have railways on!
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14:25<Sacro>hmm
14:25<@Belugas>Been a while already :)
14:25<Desolator>meh
14:25<@Belugas>err....
14:25<@Belugas>[14:23] <SmatZ> Desolator: my first manual commit was r11456 :)
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14:25<@Belugas>stucked irc line on not current :S
14:26<SmatZ>Octave you may discuss at tt-forums.net
14:26-!-Draakon [~chatzilla@88-196-103-227-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd
14:26<Draakon>hello
14:26<SmatZ>hello Draakon
14:26<pavel1269>hi
14:27<Desolator>hi
14:28<@orudge>Any sound engineers here? :P http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=35710
14:28<Desolator>great, I got a translation of "Everything about C and C++" in Romanian, and guess what? void main(void) !..I hope it's the only big mistake in it
14:29-!-LA[lord] [~chatzilla@ip157.cab20.ltln.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:29<@orudge>void main(void) is not necessarily incorrect
14:29<Desolator>(though it was written in 1997 and I think that time it was allowed but not recommended at all in C89)
14:29-!-LA[lord]_ is now known as LA[lord]
14:29<Sacro>orudge: excessive though
14:29<Desolator>well from C99 onwards it's illegal (on most compiler works, that's another thing)
14:31<Desolator>orudge: why don't we use an archive and store each file in a simple format? maybe some ogg files coupled in a tar and named something like "sounds.tar"
14:31<Desolator>sample.cat makes little sense to me
14:31<@orudge>Desolator: well
14:31<@orudge>sample.cat is just to put things in the game as they are now
14:32<@orudge>the plan is to redesign the sound format, indeed
14:32<pv2b>doesnt the openttd code already support looking in .tar files?
14:32<Desolator>it does
14:32<pv2b>i seem to distinctly remember that from mucking about in that part of the code
14:32<@orudge>for sounds?
14:32<@orudge>hmm
14:32<Desolator>not for sounds, but it can handle tars
14:32<@orudge>ah
14:32<pv2b>not sure if it can see individual resource files
14:32<Desolator>see the 32bpp gfx format
14:33<@orudge>well
14:33<@orudge>the sound engine needs a redesign anyway
14:33<@orudge>for both sound and music
14:33<Desolator>I remeber a patch you made, though it's EXTREMELY old
14:33<@orudge>something I did once already for music, but that got out of date and wasn't tht nice
14:33<@orudge>*that
14:33<Draakon>yup iy needs
14:33<Desolator>how did you handle mp3s?
14:33<@orudge>and something I've started again, but not in any serious form
14:33<Draakon>it*
14:33<@orudge>I used a library for MP3s
14:33<@orudge>can't remember what off the top of my head
14:34<pv2b>why mp3 and not some kind of vorbis?
14:34<@orudge>libmad
14:34<Desolator>because we might have problems with thomson unless we don't make much profit
14:34<@orudge>Vorbis was supported, too
14:34<@orudge>these were for music, not sound effects
14:34<Draakon>does that sound_effects contain games sound effects?
14:34<Desolator>pv2b: vorbis as well, but most people use windows and mp3 music
14:34<@orudge>Draakon: those are the current game sound effects
14:34<Draakon>k
14:34<pv2b>Desolator: then they can convert it into vorbis if they want to use it with the game :-)
14:35<@orudge>pv2b: there should be no reason we can't support MP3 too
14:35<@orudge>libmad works fine enough
14:35<pv2b>orudge: except for patent licencing bullshit.
14:35<@orudge>and I don't think licencing will be too much of an issue (if at all?) for us
14:35<@orudge>well
14:35<@orudge>other open source projects seem to manage without paying too much attention to it? ;)
14:35<pv2b>no reason to open that can of worms at all
14:35-!-Roujin [~Manuel300@p54971C01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:35<pv2b>openttd is a game, not a universal media player that needs to support all manner of obscure formats
14:35<Desolator>orudge: I'd use lame instead, just my preference
14:35<@orudge>mp3 is hardly an obscure format though
14:36<pv2b>but that's just my opinion
14:36<pv2b>i'm not going to discuss it since i'm not coding it
14:36<@orudge>Desolator: does lame have some form of decoding library that is easy to use?
14:36<@orudge>I have code here that works for vorbis and mp3
14:36<@orudge>that could be reused in a future redesign quite easily
14:36<Desolator>pv2b: mp3 is the most popular format AFAIK, not an obscure format
14:36<@orudge>anyway
14:36<@orudge>I have various ideas for a new sound engine
14:36<Prof_Frink>make openttd speak DCOP so the Jazz Jukebox can control Amarok
14:36<@orudge>just don't have te time to implement it for now
14:37<pv2b>Desolator: if you support mp3, people will want you to support AAC and WMV too :-)
14:37<Desolator>orudge: not sure, but it's used by lots of good apps to decode & encode mp3 (audacity for example)
14:37<Desolator>pv2b: wmv is a video format
14:37<pv2b>wma i mean
14:37<Prof_Frink>pv2b: Save yourself the trouble. Support phonon.
14:37<Draakon>:S
14:37<pv2b>Prof_Frink: great. yet another library dependency
14:37<SmatZ>lol @ 58.wav
14:38<Draakon>for 33.wav winap says that its invalid file type
14:38<pv2b>Prof_Frink: which in turn depends on a lot of libraries
14:38<@orudge>hmm
14:38*orudge thinks 58.wav shouldn't have been there
14:38<Desolator>pv2b: winamp sucks anyway :P
14:38<Draakon>lol
14:38<Prof_Frink>Yes... but I have them installed already :)
14:38<pv2b>Prof_Frink: i clearly want to install a part of kde and qt to be able to run openttd on my mac os x machine.
14:38<Prof_Frink>pv2b: s/kde and /
14:38<pv2b>phonon is a part of kde.
14:39<Prof_Frink>It'll be included in Qt4.4
14:39<Desolator>Prof_Frink: OTTD runs on platforms that Qt can only dream of
14:39<Desolator>not to say about kde stuff
14:39<@orudge>well
14:39<@orudge>the ability to support such things optionally should not be impossible
14:39<Prof_Frink>Desolator: It was a joke really
14:39<pv2b>Prof_Frink: does phonon work on amiga or morphos? ;-)
14:39<@orudge>the music driver framework I created previously could cope happily with such things
14:40<Prof_Frink>pv2b: See above.
14:40<@orudge>but anyway, as a default sort of thing, mp3 and vorbis is fine
14:40<pv2b>orudge: yay, so now i can't play some nice music package somebody has made, because he uses some weird optional library
14:40<Desolator>orudge: how 'bout flac and wav?
14:40<@orudge>wav was supported
14:40<Desolator>flac is pretty neat, wav is common on windows
14:40<pv2b>i want aac and apple lossless -- i store a lot of my music in that
14:41<@orudge>FLAC is possible, but I hadn't done previously
14:41<@orudge>basically
14:41<@orudge>we don't want to support every format under the sun
14:41<pavel1269>:D
14:41<pavel1269>why not ^^
14:41<@orudge>but MP3, Vorbis and raw WAV were all implemented in my previous patch
14:41<@orudge>and should do us fine enough
14:41<@orudge>FLAC perhaps too, but less important
14:41<Desolator>flac could be used for the sound effects, as they're kinda small and this way you can edit them directly without losing any sound
14:42<pv2b>Desolator: you know what else is a nice lossless format for small sound effects? wav. :-)
14:42<Desolator>wav is uncompressed
14:42<Desolator>flac has pretty good compression
14:42<pv2b>true.
14:42<Desolator>and why not save some space? wav is tied to m$, flac is free software and runs almost everywhere
14:43<pv2b>oh, i know, you could support windows media player libraries on windows, quicktime on mac, and phonon on linux ;-)
14:43<@orudge>WAV isn't really tied to Microsoft, OK, it was designed by them (I think) but it's more or less universal
14:43<pavel1269>and why not make list of music and support them all? :)
14:43<@orudge>FLAC is nice
14:43<pv2b>for other operating systems you put up an AJAX server on openttd.com which is sent the compressed sound as XML HTTP requests and returns it as a http mp3 stream
14:43<Desolator>and beos? and morphos? and how bout gnulinux distro without any kde stuff?
14:43<@orudge>but that means another library for everyone to have to have
14:44<pv2b>that'll solve any library dependencies
14:44<Desolator>pv2b: I don't want to have ottd require internet access for sound
14:44<pv2b>Desolator: that was a joke :-)
14:45<Desolator>it's possible though...
14:45<pv2b>it's a fucking stupid idea
14:45<Desolator>hey, watch your language, please
14:46<Prof_Frink>Plugins to talk to external media players would be cool.
14:46<@orudge>well
14:46<@orudge>there should be no reason why those could not be dropped in
14:46<@orudge>but as a default, OpenTTD would support wav.
14:46<@orudge>and midi
14:46<@orudge>via existing drivers
14:46<Prof_Frink>orudge can write one for winamp.
14:46<pv2b>orudge: anyway, one reason why mp3 support (or vorbis support) should be dropped -- less library dependencies
14:46<Desolator>well, got to go to dinner, see ya later folks
14:46<@orudge>pv2b: I was just saying...
14:46<@orudge>default: wav and midi
14:46<@orudge>if the appropriate libraries are available: mp3 and vorbis
14:46<pv2b>imagine the user support issues
14:47<@orudge>they're not compulsory
14:47<@orudge>pv2b: static linking?
14:47<Prof_Frink>Have them as reccommends: rather than depends:
14:47<Desolator>yea
14:47<@orudge>it's not generally much of an issue
14:47<pv2b>"my music won't play" .... "uh.... do you have the libraries installed" "the what?"
14:47<pavel1269>hehe
14:47<Prof_Frink>pv2b: For Windows, use DirectShow
14:47<@orudge>certainly, I had no problem with my patch a few years ago, I could install the libraries on most platforms I tested without issues
14:47<@orudge>(Windows, Linux, OS/2, OS X)
14:47<@orudge>but if the libraries aren't there
14:47<@orudge>it'll just fall back to wav and midi
14:47<@orudge>I see no reason why there should be a big issue about it
14:47<Wolf01>there is somebody who has a link for the web terrain generator?
14:48<pv2b>how do you fall back to wav if no wav is available? but anyway, never mind, it's not important.
14:48<@orudge>why would wav not be avaiable?
14:48<@orudge>*available
14:48<@orudge>the format is very simple
14:48<@orudge>it's built into the game
14:48<@orudge>you don't need a library to read it!
14:49<pv2b>no, im ean
14:49<pv2b>if no wav data file is available, ow do you fall back to it?
14:49<@orudge>well
14:49<@orudge>obviously, you don't
14:49<@orudge>but in terms of music
14:49<@orudge>people could play decompressed wavs if they wanted ;)
14:49<@orudge>or we could just have all the sound effects in wav anyway
14:49<@orudge>whatever
14:49<@orudge>basically, for all intents and purposes
14:49<Draakon>should toyland sounds be replaced too?
14:49<@orudge>the only people compiling it themselves are going to be Linux users
14:49<@orudge>or people who know what they're doing
14:49<@orudge>the rest will get a precompiled binary
14:50<Draakon>i am a windows user, i can compile too
14:50<@orudge>which will have libmad and libvorbis built in
14:50<@orudge>Draakon: yes, but you should hopefully know what you're doing in that case ;)
14:50<@orudge>anyway, we manage with libpng, iconv and whatever other things. libmad and libvorbis are very easy to compile and install
14:50<@orudge>it's a three-step process, as with any other library
14:50<@orudge>there really should be no big deal about it
14:50<pavel1269>:-/
14:50<pv2b>three times number of external dependencies steps :-)
14:50-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A47061.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:51<@orudge>but again, the game doesn't *require* them to compile
14:51<@orudge>it'll be less useful, sure
14:51<@orudge>but it'll work without them
14:51<pv2b>don't forget fun library version incompatibility issues
14:51<@orudge>you just won't get any sfx/music, if we choose to bundle the sfx/music in that format
14:51<@orudge>pv2b: generally, not too much of an issue, unless you're using precompiled binaries
14:51<@orudge>and they're dynamically linked
14:52<@orudge>the API hasn't changed in the libraries as far as I'm aware, so source code ought to compile with whatever version you have
14:52-!-reto_ [daemon@38.23.3.213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd
14:52<reto_>hi
14:52<reto_>I'm looking for a way to ruin the competition :)
14:52<reto_>any ideas?
14:52<Draakon>no
14:52<Draakon>its illegal
14:52<pavel1269>competition?
14:53<Draakon>no
14:53<pv2b>reto_: buy them out
14:53<Draakon>runing it
14:53<Draakon>ruining*
14:53<reto_>pv2b: nah, then you have to get rid of all the stupid tracks :)
14:53<reto_>I mean, they perform bad, but they still make some money :)
14:53<pv2b>reto_: buy them out and fix their crap
14:54<Draakon>oh
14:54<Draakon>sry
14:54<reto_>nah, that was two times funny
14:54<Draakon>i misread again
14:54-!-peter__ [~petern@217.151.109.242] has joined #openttd
14:54*Draakon is stupid????
14:54<Draakon>:P
14:54<reto_>:)
14:54<Draakon>are you talking about single player?
14:54<pv2b>reto_: you wanted a way to ruin the competition
14:54<reto_>yes sure Draakon
14:55<pv2b>other than that there are a few AI bugs that could be used to confuse the competition
14:55<reto_>pv2b: I wanna let them bleed :)
14:55<reto_>like?
14:55<Draakon>cheat, swicht players and destroy their work
14:55<pv2b>i dunno, i havent played the new ai
14:55<reto_>I mean, they don't sell nonprofiting routes
14:55<reto_>but this is not enough..
14:55<reto_>or routes whichs industry have been closed
14:57<reto_>hmmm
14:57<Draakon>how can i apply a patch if i havent downloaded source with tourturise SVN?
14:57<reto_>how did you downloadthe source then?
14:57<pv2b>Draakon: you need source code to apply a patch.
14:58<Draakon>i downloaded the source code from here: http://nightly.openttd.org/source/
14:58<reto_>patch -p0 < patch
14:58<Draakon>i use windows
14:58<reto_>:) but I dont know how to do that on windows
14:58<reto_>you could get cygwin or somethig simmilar
14:59<Draakon>and torturise svn does not have a option called Apply Patch
14:59<pavel1269>cyqwin is cool for appling patches :(
14:59<pavel1269>*cygwin
14:59<pavel1269>*:)
14:59<reto_>why ':(' then?
14:59<reto_>ah
14:59<pavel1269>i type rally bad
15:00<reto_>tpyo :)
15:00<Wolf01>gah... webtt works in truebrain's pc, i wanted to show it to a friend :|
15:00<Draakon>nvm
15:00<Draakon>i got it work
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15:04<@Belugas>[15:04] <Draakon> and torturise svn does not have a option called Apply Patch <--- I beg you pardon???
15:05<Wolf01>ahah! now i know your local time :D
15:05<Draakon>please look for 2 line of text above of yours
15:05<Draakon>then you see i got it work
15:05<reto_>Wolf01??
15:06<Wolf01>6 hours and 5 minutes
15:06<reto_>lol ..
15:07<@Belugas>heheh
15:08<Wolf01>notice it: the 5 minutes are his personal time span :D
15:08<@Belugas>sorry, Draakon, i just jumped on a sentence expressed with so much convinction that it triggered the post :)
15:09<Draakon>np
15:09<Draakon>i am compiling the source now
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15:12<Draakon>there are so many patches that i like to be updated
15:13<reto_>hmm.. I asking myself if openttd would have an easier life with adifferent scm
15:13<reto_>especially with a distributed one
15:13<Draakon>scm?
15:13<Draakon>what that means?
15:13<reto_>like mecurial
15:14<reto_>source code management
15:14<Draakon>why should it need new one?
15:14<reto_>well, it apperas to me that openttd has a hard time integrating all these patches
15:14<reto_>for different reasons
15:15<@Belugas>there is no problem at all in the integration.
15:15<Draakon>1. Patch developers don't follow coding style
15:15<Draakon>2. Devs don't have almost no time
15:15<reto_>and running more than one branch I think turned out to be a bad idea in case of the chrisin
15:15-!-HerzogDeXtE1 [~dex@i577B55E0.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
15:15<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
15:15<Draakon>3. Most of time patch developers stop supporting their work if it gets to trunk
15:16<reto_>Belugas: don't you think? dont get me wrong, I dont say that the developers are doing something wrong
15:16<reto_>yeah
15:16<Draakon>those are 3 main reasons why patches dont get into trunk
15:16<reto_>Draakon: yeah, but I think it would be easier with one or two branches
15:16<Draakon>ChrisIn is not dead
15:16<Draakon>yet
15:16<reto_>Draakon: but managing branches is a big pain in the ass with svn
15:16<hylje>it's just resting
15:17<@Belugas>"openttd has a hard time integrating all these patches" We do not have a hard time integrating them. Most of them are not going in trunk for reasons that are not related to the SCM itself, believe me
15:17<reto_>I know
15:17<reto_>but making them more mature, and filtering out the good and bad ones could be easier with a different scm
15:17<reto_>of course, just changing the scm wouldn't help much
15:17<Draakon>i sayed 3 main reasons why patches dont get into trunk
15:17<reto_>Belugas: before they go into turnk
15:18<reto_>Belugas: without any intervention from the devs
15:18<@Belugas>lol
15:18<@Belugas>that is not going to happen :)
15:18<reto_>Belugas: stop, I think you got me wrong
15:18<@Belugas>ok, /me stops
15:18<reto_>Belugas: without intervention by the devs, they would go ito a branch
15:18<reto_>not into the trunk..
15:19<reto_>it would be easier to maintain a patch by a team
15:19<@Belugas>there was a branch called MiniIN. it was maintained by richk67. Quite a few patches got in.
15:19<@Belugas>it became unmanageable
15:19<reto_>yes
15:19<@Belugas>and pretty much instable
15:19<reto_>I think partly due to svns liitations
15:19<reto_>well
15:19<@Belugas>nope
15:19<@Belugas>users
15:20<hylje>shoddy patches
15:20<reto_>instability of course is not something a different scm can solve :)
15:20<Draakon>reto: its not about SVN
15:20<Draakon>its about Patches
15:20<@Belugas>who, as Draakon said, sat on their a@@es once in MiniIN
15:20<reto_>Draakon: I explained above why I think that a different scm would make a difference
15:20<Draakon>it does not
15:20<@Belugas>I agree
15:20<reto_>sorry
15:21<reto_>:)
15:21<Draakon>as i already sayed 3 main reasons why patches dont get into trunk
15:21<Draakon>1. Patch developers don't follow coding style
15:21<reto_>yes, and I wrote my answer
15:21<Draakon>2. Devs don't have almost no time
15:21-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~dex@i59F7EBDF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21<Draakon>3. Most of time patch developers stop supporting their work if it gets to trunk
15:22<Draakon>ChrishIN is not supported by devs
15:22<Draakon>only one man is behind it
15:22<@Belugas>and there are patches VERY badly written, corrupting everything nearby
15:22<Draakon>yup
15:22<reto_>yes, and thats the right way to do it, I think its an aggreed fact that the load on the devs has to be reduced
15:23<reto_>Belugas: yes, there has to be some kind of process, which allows others to review a patch BEFORE a dev has to look at it
15:23<reto_>that would be ideal imho
15:23<Draakon>no
15:23<Draakon>devs only know what needs to be done exacly
15:23<reto_>and of course also rate a patch by users, to get an idea if its useful orn not
15:23<@Belugas>usually, people on forums are dealing with that part
15:23<reto_>yes
15:23<Draakon>users only deal with the idea itself
15:24<Draakon>not the bugs, coding styles and the rest part that has the ability that patch gets into trunk
15:24<reto_>Belugas: but don't you think some kind of hierarchy/user rating, for example with a small web tool, could make some things a bit easier
15:24<Draakon>IMO it does not
15:24<Rubidium>reto_: you are free to use mercurial or git if you want to; you do not have to use svn to get OpenTTD's sources
15:24<reto_>no sure
15:25<reto_>I'm just pointing out some ideas, :)
15:25<reto_>you guys are doing a great job
15:25<Draakon>reto: you can make your branch in your server in anyway you want
15:25<reto_>Draakon: its not about me
15:25<Rubidium>reto_: user ratings will mean "I like this patch" and "I don't like this patch"; it will say nothing about the code itself.
15:25<Draakon>well i just pointed out
15:26<reto_>Rubidium: that would be one source of information, another one I could think of would be by 'mentor's or something like that
15:26<reto_>Rubidium: which would filter out 80% of the common problmes
15:26<reto_>Rubidium: mentors would be choosend by the devs..
15:26<reto_>you could use people who already have written some patchs which are in the trunk
15:27<hylje>there was a patch tracking project up in a few parallels
15:27<Rubidium>take a look at MiniIN and ChrisIN; they both are unmaintainable because they are buggy because there is no proper review of the patches before they go into trunk.
15:27<reto_>people who are familiar with c++, the openttd code and have a good knowledge about QA
15:27<Draakon>reto: not a good idea
15:27<Draakon>IMO
15:27<hylje>but i didn't have enough time (and dedication) for that
15:27<hylje>that said, i could just get back to it
15:28-!-Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
15:28<reto_>debian has a similar system in place to ensure the quality of of packages..
15:28<Desolator>alright folks, back
15:28<reto_>it's quite difficult I think
15:28<reto_>...
15:28<reto_>after all its a big software projet
15:28<Rubidium>reto_: people who are familiar with C++ and the good knowledge of the OpenTTD code become the developers
15:28<reto_>Rubidium: so you would rule out any benefit of a step in between?
15:29<reto_>but yeah, the forum already does a lot of these things ..
15:29<Rubidium>no, it's just a fact
15:30<reto_>it just doesn't appear to be systematic.. somehow
15:30<reto_>:)
15:30<Rubidium>everyone else basically doesn't know enough about OTTD's workings to tell whether something will work or not
15:31<reto_>Rubidium: well, a mentor could learn that from the feedback of the devs
15:31<Rubidium>and... 'small web tool'. There is a idea about a better patch management system, but that never got implemented because nobody has time
15:31<reto_>yes :) old problem.. big words, and then nothing gets done :)
15:31*reto_ also just speaks :)
15:32<Rubidium>yes... so many people with big words who can't actually change anything
15:32<reto_>hehe
15:34<reto_>after all, to quote oloh "This is a relatively large team, putting this project among the top 10% of all project teams on Ohloh.
15:34<reto_>"
15:34-!-Draakon [~chatzilla@88-196-103-227-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]]
15:37<ln->does someone see a certain similarity in the purpose and structure of name in "Jem'Hadar" and "Uruk-hai"?
15:39<Desolator>I've got an idea
15:40<Desolator>how about a project to develop an alternate system for creating grfs, with a high-level language for doing so, and a "compiler" to translate it into pure nfo
15:41<Desolator>this way there will be no stuff like "why make something new if the current system is completed?"
15:41<+glx>Desolator: Eddi|zuHause2 started something similar
15:41<Desolator>hmm, any topics on the forums on so that I could see?
15:43<Desolator>anyway, the most important thing I'd need would be someone who has a good knowledge of nfo
15:43-!-Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl7-179-211.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:44<Desolator>as I'm planning to use a subset of Lua as scripting language, removing loops and so as I believe they're not necessary, then implement some functions that would be easier to use than nfo actions
15:45-!-Digitalfox_ [~chatzilla@bl7-185-30.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
15:45<reto_>ln-: uruk-hai?... there has been something in a game called outcast
15:46<Desolator>DalteStan?
15:47<Desolator>@seen DaleStan
15:47<@DorpsGek>Desolator: DaleStan was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 57 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <DaleStan> Not quite that bad, but close. I've done quite a few "????.h" And that's not a header file, SmatZ. If the first character is a dot, it does not start the extension, Window's impressions to the contrary notwithstanding.
15:47<Desolator>well, out to #tycoon
15:47*DaleStan does not yet have "DalteStan" on his list of words to highlight on.
15:48<Desolator>oops...
15:48<Wolf01>you should put it in, like all other mistake combinations
15:48<Desolator>anyway, I know you're a very good programmer
15:49<DaleStan>I don't think I've seen it before. (Well, duh. I don't highlight on it, ergo I don't see it.)
15:49<Desolator>well, I bought a book that describes boh C & C++, what sings do you think a bad book would have?
15:49<hylje>laa laa
15:49-!-Frostregen_ [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-101-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
15:49<Desolator>I know you recommended Advanced C++ a while ago, but I've not been able to find it
15:50<DaleStan>Look at the title: Does it mention "hours" or "days"? If so, it's probably not a good book.
15:51<Desolator>nope, it's a translation into Romanian, the English title should be something like "Everything about C and C++"
15:52<Desolator>one bad thing I saw was void main(void), though the original book was written in 1997 and AFAIK that was legal in C89 (although not recommended)
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15:55<DaleStan>I'm not familiar with translations, (since I speak English and only English) but I understand that English's larger technical vocabulary makes translations difficult, and when completed, less useful than the original English.
15:55<Desolator>I know, though here we borrow about 60% of our vocabulary from English
15:57<Desolator>And it's kinda hard to find English versions of books here as well
16:02<Rubidium>DaleStan: any idea who I should contact about the question I asked you yesterday (the cargo missing when having ECS and newcargo)?
16:02<DaleStan>Beyond having seen recommendations for Accelerated C++, and having learned from one of the Problem Solving with C++ series, I haven't had much experience with programming books; I usually read other code and/or the spec instead.
16:02<DaleStan>I did learn from QBasic for Dummies and Teach Yourself VisualBasic in $TIMEPERIOD, many years ago, so a bad title doesn't make it useless.)
16:05<DaleStan>Not really, Rubidium. ECSAgri[w] and MB's NewCargo, right? Any other GRFs? I'll see if I can figure it out tonight.
16:05<pavel1269>gn all
16:05<Desolator>gn
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16:06<Rubidium>DaleStan: yes, those two
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16:10<+glx>but probably happen with others
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16:15<@orudge>ooh, version detection for MSVC, funky
16:15*orudge hasn't built OpenTTD in a while
16:16<Wolf01>i should update my msvc checkout, i'm too much used with tortoise and notepad :P
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16:18<dih>hey ho
16:18<Wolf01>hi
16:20-!-Roujin [~Manuel300@p54971C01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
16:20*dih is working on solving the mac password issue ^^
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16:27<@orudge>hmm
16:27<@orudge>when did OpenTTD get the high score chart?
16:27*orudge has missed a lot
16:28<peter__>hasn't it had it forever?
16:28<@orudge>nope
16:28<@orudge>not that I know of
16:29<@orudge>hmm
16:29<@orudge>maybe it's just the green button made it more visible
16:29<@orudge>it seems to be here in this 0.5.x version
16:29*orudge tries older versions
16:30<@orudge>hrmm
16:30<@orudge>maybe it always has
16:30<@orudge>I just never noticed it with the button being where it is :P
16:30<peter__>noob ;)
16:30<@orudge>now that it's bright green
16:31<@orudge>it's a bit more visible
16:31<peter__>and ugly?
16:31<@orudge>yes
16:31<@orudge>it's here in r2364M (aka, one of my new music test versions)
16:31<peter__>why is it green, anyone?
16:31*orudge listens to some random vorbis files in openttd
16:36*Hendikins plays a game of "how much work issue shit can I fit in my laptop bag?"
16:36*Prof_Frink listens to the closing music from the Bourne Identity on Codeine
16:36<Hendikins>(Whilst still managing to fit a laptop in there)
16:36<Prof_Frink>Hendikins: Start with an eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepc
16:37<Hendikins>I have an Acer Aspire 5520, I don't need an eepc :P
16:38-!-tokai [~tokai@p54B835AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:38<Prof_Frink>Oh, nobody *needs* an eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, they just want them.
16:39<peter__>i shall steal my dad's
16:40-!-tokai [~tokai@84.184.50.104] has joined #openttd
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16:40<Hendikins>I don't want one :P
16:41*Hendikins packs work-issue sunscreen, insect repellent, reflective vest...
16:41<Hendikins>I get to play with level crossings today :P
16:47*Hendikins pads off and tailswishes
16:54<reto_>hmm.. passenger destinations: is the patch on the first page of the forum-thread, or somewhere else?
16:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11809 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1643]: set expenses type when selling all vehicles in depot
16:57<reto_>ah found it
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17:00<ln->is Effective C++ worth buying?
17:00<reto_>wait a sec ln
17:01<SmatZ>خلوت تر از این نبود ؟؟ :-D
17:01<SmatZ>weird
17:01<reto_>ln-: I can really recommend http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html
17:02<reto_>ln-: hmm.. may be the book you mention is not a beginner book, then I can't help :)
17:02-!-Purno [~Purno@5357D37C.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02<SmatZ>!logs
17:02<SpComb>Logs: http://spbot.marttila.de:8120/logs/oftc-ottd (old: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd )
17:03*dih 's logs are nicer ^^
17:03<SmatZ>@logs
17:03<dih>i dont have my bot in here
17:03<Sacro>SmatZ: any info on how the new signalling system works?
17:03<SmatZ>dih sure they are, but how can I open them?
17:03<SmatZ>ah
17:03<dih>but you can have a look at those of openttdcoop ^^
17:03<ln->reto_: indeed I'm not looking for a beginner book.
17:04<dih>i could get JJ in here, just dont know if the dev's would appreciate it
17:04<dih>besides there are nice logs at thegrebs.com
17:04<Prof_Frink>JJ? Squirrels with tits?
17:04*dih slaps Prof_Fink
17:04<dih>JJ is my supybot
17:04-!-Roujin [~Manuel300@p54971C01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04<dih>similar to DorpsGek
17:05<dih>diff is only that i log to a database and dont have the OpenTTD plugin - but i could get it ^^
17:05<reto_>ln-: then I'm sorry :)
17:05-!-Mark is now known as MarkAwaya
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17:05<SmatZ>Sacro sure, sec
17:05<Prof_Frink>Well, if it's called JJ, it should draw pictures of squirrels with tits.
17:05<Prof_Frink>Right Sacro?
17:07<SmatZ>tits?
17:08<Sacro>tits?
17:08<Sacro>mmm tits
17:10<peter__>new signalling system?
17:10<Sacro>peter__: indeedicles
17:11<SmatZ>peter__: r11802
17:11*Sacro has been hacking around with it, seems quite reasonable
17:11<Sacro>and quite extensible
17:11<peter__>oh, codewise
17:11<peter__>i assumed the functionality was the same (apart from the long-track-bug)
17:12<Sacro>i'm attempting to get signals to default to red, but it's not happening
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17:14<ln->is anyone a member of the mafia here?
17:14<Sacro>ln-: one will be at your door soon
17:14*Prof_Frink is now known as Don_Frink
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17:18<Wolf01>'night
17:18-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host35-237-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:19<ln->was that a yes or no..
17:20<Prof_Frink>ln-: Go to bed. If there's a horses head there when you wake up, it was a yes.
17:21<Sacro>or your missus needs replacing
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17:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11810 /trunk/src/signal.cpp: -Fix (r11802): reset sets when leaving prematurely
17:46<SmatZ>Sacro: sorry, I had a phone
17:46<Sacro>i have a phone too!
17:46<SmatZ>:-)
17:46<SmatZ>I do not have anymore!
17:47<SmatZ>first, there are set some places where we will search - it is put into _globset
17:47<SmatZ>then UpdateSignalsInBuffer is calld
17:47<Sacro>ah, right
17:47<SmatZ>it takes one by one place from _globset
17:48<SmatZ>each representing one segment (some may represent the same segment)
17:48<SmatZ>ExploreSegment goes through segment
17:48<SmatZ>and places found signals into _tbuset
17:48<SmatZ>and sets flags
17:48<SmatZ>then, UpdateSignalsAroundSegment is called
17:48<SmatZ>and updates signals in _tbuset according to flags
17:49<SmatZ>when an exit signal changes its state, block behind it is added into _globset
17:49<reto_>why arent there any helicopters after 2000-something?
17:49<SmatZ>because it may need to be updated
17:52<SmatZ>Sacro: if you need different red-green conditions, change UpdateSignalsAroundSegment
17:52<peter__>not enougb engine slots ;)
17:52<reto_>peter__: really?
17:53<Sacro>SmatZ: so if i wanted to add, say yellow signals
17:53<Sacro>i'd need to do that in UpdateSignalsAroundSegment
17:54<peter__>openttd: /home/petern/ottd/trunk/src/ai/default/../../oldpool.h:125: T* OldMemoryPool<T>::Get(uint) const [with T = Engine]: Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed.
17:54<peter__>Aborted (core dumped)
17:54<peter__>that sucks ;p
17:57<SmatZ>peter__: with trunk?
17:57<SmatZ>Sacro: yes
17:57<Sacro>SmatZ: i might attempt that in a minute
17:57<Sacro>then have to find out how to add yellowsigsw.grf
17:58<peter__>no
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18:04<reto_>where in the source code is defined which vehicel is available from when to when?
18:05<peter__>it's in engine.cpp
18:06<peter__>all sorts of player availability stuff in there
18:06<reto_>was browsing through engine.h, but.. well
18:06<Brianetta>RIP Sir Edmund Hillary, 1919-2008, http://a.vu/3jh9
18:06*peter__ sleeps
18:06*dih wins
18:07<peter__>oh, but there's a url now
18:07*peter__ looks
18:07*dih slaps peter__
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18:10<dih>night ladies
18:12<SmatZ>night dih
18:13<Sacro>SmatZ: you planning on any signal stuff updates?
18:14-!-dih [~dihedral@84.57.237.191] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:16<SmatZ>Sacro: no...
18:16<SmatZ>not any big changes
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19:04*Sacro edificates
19:04<Sacro>SmatZ: where is SIGNAL_STATE_{RED,GREEN} declared?
19:04<Sacro>ahh, rail_map.h
19:04<Sacro>SmatZ: if (tracks == TRACK_BIT_HORZ || tracks == TRACK_BIT_VERT) ← doesn't that need more brackets?
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19:05<SmatZ>Sacro: I think more brackets wouldn't help the code readability
19:06<Sacro>oh it would
19:06<Sacro>hmm
19:06<Sacro>i can't read lines i type
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19:06<Sacro>stupid irc client
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19:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11811 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: make compilation without networking work again (and thus move the debugdumpcommand stuff out of the network 'area').
19:35*orudge has hacked together a new sound mixer for OpenTTD from the ScummVM sound mixer. He wonders if it will work.
19:36<@orudge>I say hacked, the implementation is rather clean, I'm just not sure if it'll work in practice :P
19:36<Sacro>orudge: commit!
19:38<@orudge>whatddya know
19:38<@orudge>it works perfectly
19:38*orudge is now having the Children's BBC theme playing on the about box, because it was the first wav file he could find :P
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19:39<@orudge>awesome
19:39<Sacro>orudge: how nice
19:39<@orudge>of course, I really should have been revising, instead
19:39<@orudge>but hey, a new sound engine for OpenTTD will be no bad thing
19:40<@orudge>hmm
19:40<@orudge>it worked fine at 11025Hz, it's not quite right at 44100Hz
19:40<@orudge>but perhaps something else still thinks it's at 11025
19:42<@orudge>ah
19:42<@orudge>bufsize
19:43<@orudge>that's better :D
19:43<ln->what's the imperial unit for Hertz?
19:43<@orudge>the imperial unit?
19:43<@orudge>I didn't know there was one
19:43<Sacro>err...
19:43<ln->me neither, but i was hoping you'd know
19:43<Sacro>there isn't one
19:43<ln->or come up with one
19:43<Sacro>actually
19:43<Sacro>Hz is imperial
19:43<Sacro>as tis cycles per second
19:44<Sacro>and seconds are not decimal
19:44<Sacro>hence not metric
19:44<ln->but seconds happen to be an SI unit
19:44<SmatZ>:)
19:44<Sacro>ln-: yes, but not necesserily metric
19:45<ln->only last year i learned about this unit called Rankine.
19:48<ln->you don't believe me?
19:50<ln->cool, i found a table which lists the imperial unit for Hz.
19:50<ln->http://img.directindustry.com/pdf/repository_di/38417/22957_28b.jpg
19:51<Sacro>ln-: no it doesn't
19:51<Sacro>well
19:51<Sacro>cps = Hz
19:51<ln->yeah, easy conversion.
19:56<@orudge>woot
19:56<@orudge>the new sound engine now supports the old sample.cat sounds
19:56<ln->how feline
19:56<@orudge>quite
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21:22<DaleStan>Rubidium: Cannot reproduce. Please provide version numbers and GRF order. (It worked for me, regardless of which one I placed first.)
21:30<DaleStan>Rubidium: Also, no readily apparent reason in NFO for "Fish" not to be defined exactly once, in slot 0E.
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21:51<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... my RMB is broken...
21:51<+glx>bad for ottd
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 11 00:00:46 2008