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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-02-16

---Logopened Sat Feb 16 00:00:52 2008
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00:02<PooFondu>ISLE OF MAN - June 1, 2006 - At a press conference today, Canonical CEO and Free Software spokesniggger Mark Shuttleworth announced the immediate availability of version 6.06 of the Ubuntu Linux distribution. The latest version, known by its code name, "The Diaper Drake," includes special features designed to make Linux easier and more comfortable for nigggers the world over.
00:02<PooFondu>"Niggggers have always had trouble understanding new technology," Shuttleworth began. "Computers are no exception. Some people have said this is because niggggers are dumb, but I believe the real problem is that technology has traditionally been designed for white people. Ubuntu changes all that. It was developed from the ground up with niggggers in mind. It will usher in a whole new era of Afro-ergonomic computing."
00:03<PooFondu>Shuttleworth presented an overview of some of the features users could expect in the latest version of Ubuntu, including an Ebonics-to-English converter, African "tribal beats" sound and desktop theme, and a collection of rap music and gay pornography, "which of course will be encoded using patent and royalty-free formats," Shuttleworth added, smiling. He proceeded to elaborate, but OpenOffice.org Impress crashed at that
00:03<PooFondu> point.
00:03<PooFondu>"But this release isn't just about new features," Shuttleworth said, making a quick segue to the humanitarian and ideological concept behind Ubuntu. "This new version brings black men closer together than ever in the spirit of Ubuntu." Shuttleworth then demonstrated the concept of Ubuntu by getting on his knees and sucking a young black boy's erect penis.
00:03<toms>right ...
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00:26<Gekz>he spammed everywhere with it
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00:36<toms>yeah i figured
00:36<toms>havnt used a public IRC server in quite a while, forgot that sort of junk went on :P
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01:00<Forked>dumdidum
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01:02<Gekz>toms: that's the first time I've seen pure stupidity like that though
01:09<a1270>You haven't been on dalnet then.
01:12<Forked>or efnet back in the days..
01:23<Gekz>lol
01:23<Gekz>I dont do drugs.
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02:49<Wolf01>hello
02:49<Gonozal_VIII>hi
02:50*Wolf01 looks outside the window
02:50<Wolf01>today is a good day to purchase an xbox360
02:50<Gonozal_VIII>i don't like consoles
02:53<Wolf01>i don't like people, but i talk to them :P
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03:06<toms>16:36 < Gekz> toms: that's the first time I've seen pure stupidity like that though
03:06<toms>16:39 < a1270> You haven't been on dalnet then.
03:06<toms>ive been to dalnet
03:06<toms>16:46 < Forked> or efnet back in the days..
03:06<toms>heh
03:06<toms>years and years ago
03:06<toms>i was there for a couple of mintes
03:06<toms>then left
03:08<Forked>hehe
03:08<toms>dont think ive been to efnet though
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03:17<Wolf01>ethical question: i know there is another italian TT forum linked into the ottd wiki, do you think there is any problem if i link mine too?
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04:57<Alberth>Does anyone know when to use v->service_interval vs _patches.servint_* (ie what is each var used for?), in particular in the decision to perform periodic maintenance?
04:58<Gonozal_VIII>_patches is the patch setting (default stuff) and v is the vehicle
05:01<Alberth>when the patch is 0, it seems no maintenance is performed. In addition, when creating a vehicle, the patch setting is copied to the vehicle. So what should happen when I set the patch value to 0, create a vehicle, then set the patch value to non-zero?
05:01<Alberth>or can I not change the patch setting during a game?
05:02<Gonozal_VIII>i consider that a flaw in the system, you can't change the value to 0 without setting the default to 0 and you can't raise 0 to 10...
05:02<Alberth>PS note the word **should**
05:05<Gonozal_VIII>and 15... you can set the default to 15 but not ingame... inconsistant
05:06<Alberth>what you say is that my scenario should be allowed, but it isn't atm
05:06<Gonozal_VIII>yes
05:06<Gonozal_VIII>vehicle built with default 0 stays at 0
05:07-!-LordAzamath [~LordAzama@ip208.cab23.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
05:07<LordAzamath>hello
05:07<Alberth>ack, the patch setting is never copied to v during its life time.
05:07<Alberth>hai
05:07<Gonozal_VIII>hi la
05:07<Alberth>shoud the v->service_interval be eliminated then?
05:08<Alberth>(difficult questions early in the morning :) )
05:08<Gonozal_VIII>should be able to use the current default value
05:09<Gonozal_VIII>service interval for a vehicle set to default... you change default... all vehicles with default change too
05:09<LordAzamath>hmm.. I've had less time recently.. and now find the thread not updated at all..
05:09<LordAzamath>the 8bpp replacement
05:10<Gonozal_VIII>there's no parking space in front of hangar doors^^
05:10<Alberth>Gonozal_VIII: I understand. Is there a way to check whether a v has a non-default setting (oher than v->service_interval != _patches.servint_*) ?
05:11<Gonozal_VIII>enumify the values of service_interval and use one of them as "default"
05:13<Alberth>can I not set arbitrary service_intervals for each of the vehicle types? (specified in days orso?). Makes enumifying a bit hard... ;)
05:13<LordAzamath>there's no parking space in front of hangar doors^^ ??
05:14<LordAzamath>what was that about?
05:14<Gonozal_VIII>your reply to the military thingy
05:14<LordAzamath>only it's not a hangar
05:15<Gonozal_VIII>of course it's a hangar, there's doors where ufos come out ;-) can't park in front of that
05:16<LordAzamath>hmm.. I'm now going to code this_: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=665083#p665083 I think, but which one will be TIM?
05:16<LordAzamath>what do you want?
05:17<Gonozal_VIII>values could be default, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15,... 50, 60, 70.. 150, 175, 200... 300, 350, 400... 800
05:18<Tefad>9001 ?
05:18<Gonozal_VIII>9001?
05:19<Alberth>Gonozal_VIII: Tnx for all info, lots to think about
05:20<Alberth>9001: ISO certified :)
05:21<Alberth>(you wouldn't want to build an UFO without ISO-certification, would you?)
05:22<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
05:23<Maedhros>British Rail patented a flying saucer, at one point
05:24<Alberth>Put it at the building, something like http://www.laser-tech-inc.com/images/building_exterior.jpg
05:27<Wolf01>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MANcXZ-ruY&feature=related the video might be cool... without those glowing and colourful effects -_-'''
05:30<Gonozal_VIII>yay openttd videos
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07:20<Gonozal_VIII>nobody here all the time?
07:20<yorick>nope
07:20<Prof_Frink>I'm never here.
07:21<Tekky>I'm not here, either :)
07:21<@peter1138>LordAzamath, the bottom one is TIM
07:22<Gonozal_VIII>tim is tgv
07:22<LordAzamath>can't speak to me, I'm not here
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07:22<LordAzamath>^^
07:23<LordAzamath>peter1138: I just wanted to know which one you preferred.. and now I have already coded the ifrst one, so I won't be dong the other..
07:23*peter1138 wonders if Tekky has curses any updates to YAPP
07:24<@peter1138>LordAzamath, no reason to not have them all ;)
07:24<LordAzamath>oh yes there is
07:25<LordAzamath>in replacement set it's sprite replacement 0A.. I doubt you can have two alternate versions with ActionA :P
07:26<@peter1138>Use it later
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08:04<Gonozal_VIII>poor forum was hurt
08:04<Gonozal_VIII>bleeding background all over the page
08:05<@peter1138>Can you hear me Major Tom?
08:06<Gonozal_VIII>good song :-)
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08:22<dih>@seen Bjarni
08:22<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 10 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Bjarni> besides spelled in a stupid way
08:23<dih>get in here...!
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09:50<Alberth>It seems that "p->engine_renew_months" (for autorenewal) means number of months *after* max-age (aircraft_cmd.cpp, line 1577). Naively, I would expect *before*. Which is it supposed to be?
09:51<Gonozal_VIII>you can set if from -12 to 12
09:51<Gonozal_VIII>-12 after is 12 before :-)
09:51<Alberth>that's what I wanted to know.
09:51<Alberth>tnx
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09:59<Alberth>hmm, text in the 'configure patches' window is broken then. It says "Autorenew when vehicle is 6 months before/after max age". The "before/" text should be deleted imho
10:00<Gonozal_VIII>best would be to change from before to after when you get past 0
10:00<Gonozal_VIII>no negatives
10:01<Alberth>that would be ideal indeed
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10:56<LordAzamath>does anyone know what is the sprite 674 in trg1r.pcx for?
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11:02<Gonozal_VIII>nothing
11:02<Gonozal_VIII>not used in the code
11:02<LordAzamath>kinda weird sprite I should say..
11:02<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't have a name in sprites.h and doesn't appear in the sourcefiles
11:02<LordAzamath>Gonozal_VIII: Does sprites.h count all sprites that are used?
11:03<Gonozal_VIII>nope
11:03<Gonozal_VIII>gives some of them names
11:04<Gonozal_VIII> SPR_SELECT_TILE = 752,
11:04<Gonozal_VIII> SPR_DOT = 774, // corner marker for lower/raise land
11:04<Gonozal_VIII> SPR_DOT_SMALL = 4078,
11:04<Gonozal_VIII> SPR_WHITE_POINT = 4079,
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>like that
11:04<LordAzamath>but not all?
11:05<Gonozal_VIII>nope
11:05<LordAzamath>gahh why am I asking, I've got the svn source here anyway :D
11:05<Gonozal_VIII>but every set afaik
11:05<Gonozal_VIII>first sprite in a set has name, others are name + n
11:05<LordAzamath>hmm
11:05<LordAzamath>ok
11:07<Gonozal_VIII>for example terrain sprites... only the flat ones have a name
11:07<Rippsy>Will openttd.exe in 0.6.0b3 load a openttd.cfg from its root dir over one it finds in mydocs/openttd?
11:07<Gonozal_VIII>yes
11:08<LordAzamath>if it has one in installation dir then yes
11:08<LordAzamath>wtf? Gonozal_VIII, a n00b needs help
11:08<Rippsy>ty :)
11:08<LordAzamath>where exactly is sprites.h?
11:08<Gonozal_VIII>table
11:09<Gonozal_VIII>src/table
11:09<LordAzamath>ok... n00b got help :)
11:09<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
11:10<Gonozal_VIII>but i didn't find 674 anywhere in the code
11:11<LordAzamath>hmm.. I like this part of sprites.h
11:11<LordAzamath> * All sprites which are described here are referenced only one to a handful of times * throughout the code. When introducing new sprite enums, use meaningful names. * Don't be lazy and typing, and only use abbrevations when their meaning is clear or * the length of the enum would get out of hand. In that case EXPLAIN THE ABBREVATION * IN THIS FILE, and perhaps add some comments in the code where it is used. * Now, don't whine about thi
11:11<LordAzamath> 30 characters in length. If your editor doen't help you simplifying your work, * get a proper editor. If your Operating Systems don't have any decent editors, * get a proper Operating System.
11:11<Gonozal_VIII>i doubt it's char sprite + something...
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11:12<LordAzamath>well it looks like some kind of colour table, but if it aint used, it's ok :)
11:13<LordAzamath>my first guess was that it has something to do with company colour overlay.
11:13<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think it really matters for the replacement stuff
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11:13<LordAzamath>me neither
11:13<Gonozal_VIII>single pixels..
11:13<LordAzamath>but it's just an interesting sprite :D
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11:17<LordAzamath>so actually trg1r is FULL of sprites that are never used?
11:17<Gonozal_VIII>yep^^
11:17<LordAzamath>like... 93 - 127
11:17<LordAzamath>:P
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11:18<LordAzamath>I think it's just there to make something like contious actionA harder :P
11:19<Gonozal_VIII>well... those are nice... transparent pixels... very important...
11:20<LordAzamath>what about 675-678?
11:20<Gonozal_VIII>baaah
11:20<LordAzamath>I couldn't find them in sprites.h either
11:20<Gonozal_VIII>you keep askin that stuff right after i closed the image
11:21<Gonozal_VIII>like... a second after i closed it
11:21<LordAzamath>hehe
11:21<LordAzamath>don't close it :P
11:22<Gonozal_VIII>-678?
11:22<LordAzamath>675 676 677 678
11:22<Gonozal_VIII>ah that stuff
11:22<Gonozal_VIII>some kind of background thingy...
11:23<LordAzamath>seems like some sort of glass
11:24<LordAzamath>but where is it used?
11:24<Gonozal_VIII>why should i know that?
11:24<LordAzamath>I thought maybe you have seen it somewhere in-game
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11:32<remaxim>hi Belugas
11:35<@peter1138>He is not usually around at the weekend.
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11:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12160 /trunk/src/ (saveload.cpp waypoint.cpp waypoint.h): -Fix [FS#1744]: remove the arbitrary limit of 64 waypoints per town, so weird things won't happen anymore
11:41<Gonozal_VIII>64 waypoints per town...
11:41<Gonozal_VIII>does anybody actually reach that limit?
11:41<SmatZ>if you did, the game crashed
11:41<ben_goodger>Gonozal_VIII: of course not
11:42<+glx>because it created a 65th waypoint
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: 1 town, lots of industries?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause3>huge map?
11:43<Gonozal_VIII>huge map with 1 town?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>not that i would play that way, but i have seen people talk about playing like that
11:43<Gonozal_VIII>well ok... possible
11:44<Gonozal_VIII>crashing is always bad, even if it's very unlikely to happen...
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11:53<SmatZ>crashing is bad when there can be people who want to destroy the game
11:54<Gonozal_VIII>oh multiplayer, i see, i see
11:54<Gonozal_VIII>like the double engine endless loop thingy
11:55<+glx>or the remove rail on buildings ;)
11:55<Gonozal_VIII>is that fixed?
11:55<+glx>in trunk yes
11:55<Gonozal_VIII>goody
11:57<SmatZ>that "removing rail on buildings" wouldn't be that bad as releases are often build without asserts
11:58<+glx>well asserts are there for a good reason :)
11:58<Gonozal_VIII>not that one^^
11:58<+glx>as without assert you could corrupt the map array
11:59<SmatZ>yeah, but in this case, it was harmless :)
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12:00<Morloth>Good day to you all :)
12:00<SmatZ>hello Morloth
12:00<Gonozal_VIII>hi
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12:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12161 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: towns will no longer build houses > 1x1 there where should be road (with 2x2, 3x3 grid town layouts)
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12:11<yorick>:)
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12:16<LordAzamath>hmm.. is there any good way to see if a sprite is used in-game? and when it is, then where?
12:16<LordAzamath>because I constantly fail to find some items..
12:16<Alberth>how do you search?
12:17<LordAzamath>first way.. look around in sprites.h
12:17<Alberth>a number over all files would be my idea
12:17<LordAzamath>second way, look around in-game
12:17<Alberth>(add 'search for' in front)
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12:18<Alberth>you mean a sprite itself, and not its number/identification
12:19<LordAzamath>where certain sprite is used
12:19<LordAzamath>for example 816
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12:20<LordAzamath>681*
12:20<LordAzamath>in trg1r.grf
12:20<LordAzamath>I can't find it
12:20<LordAzamath>that's the trashcan
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12:22<Alberth>have a sprite that you can find?
12:22<Alberth>(assuming the other ones are near)
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12:26<LordAzamath>well.. yes.
12:26<LordAzamath>there are just few onws I can't :P
12:27<LordAzamath>actually, I have a hunch that sprite 681 isn't used anywhere
12:28<Alberth>the number is not used at least (in sprite context), it seems
12:28<Alberth>(neither decimal nor hexadecimal)
12:29<Gonozal_VIII>no hex in the code
12:30<Gonozal_VIII>well.. string names have some hex
12:30<Alberth>and constants (maybe only bits)?
12:30<Alberth>Argh!! "cmdcost = DoCommand(0, replace_engine, 0, DC_QUERY_COST, CMD_BUILD_AIRCRAFT);" doesn't work :(
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause3><LordAzamath> that's the trashcan <-- it was used in the depot window
12:31<LordAzamath>ha.
12:31<Eddi|zuHause3>but the sprites got replaced
12:31<LordAzamath>not anymore
12:31<LordAzamath>I just found it out ott
12:31<LordAzamath>too*
12:31<LordAzamath>so this won't be needed :)
12:31<Alberth>I need another way to estimate replacement costs, obviously......
12:32<Alberth>LordAzamath: One more sprite free for use!
12:32<LordAzamath>?
12:32<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't work that way
12:32<Alberth>You weren't collecting free sprites? :)
12:33<LordAzamath>one more sprite not to replace :D
12:33<Alberth>ah!
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12:33<@peter1138>Trashcan used to be used in the depot window
12:34<@peter1138>And hex numbers are used for sprite IDs all over the place...
12:34<LordAzamath>but no trashcan anymore
12:35<LordAzamath>I mark it as such now :)
12:36<laz0r>hi, I've asked this question in the past, and remember getting an answer, but I forgot it... I would like to know if there are binary builds for linux available that are _not_ in the form of a .deb/.rpm/whatever, just a tarball?
12:36-!-XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has joined #openttd
12:36<+glx>nightlies are
12:37<laz0r>no, i would like the stable and beta releases
12:37<laz0r>s/and/or
12:37<+glx>only source is available as tarball
12:38<Alberth>Does tarball of binaries not have lots of library dependencies?
12:39<laz0r>that would depend on openttds dependencies i guess
12:40<laz0r>what does openttd depend on? SDL?
12:40<Alberth>tarball does't keep dependencies like .deb/.rpm does
12:40<Alberth>% ldd openttd
12:40<Alberth> linux-gate.so.1 => (0x00110000)
12:40<Alberth> libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x03078000)
12:40<Alberth> libpthread.so.0 => /lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00a23000)
12:40<Alberth> librt.so.1 => /lib/librt.so.1 (0x00292000)
12:40<Alberth> libSDL-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 (0x076d7000)
12:40<Alberth> libz.so.1 => /lib/libz.so.1 (0x00a3d000)
12:40<Alberth> libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0x00c24000)
12:40<Alberth> libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x00c4c000)
12:40<Alberth> libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x00b98000)
12:40<Alberth> libm.so.6 => /lib/libm.so.6 (0x009f1000)
12:40<Alberth> libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x0089b000)
12:40<Alberth> libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00ce3000)
12:40<Alberth> /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x0087c000)
12:40<Alberth> libdl.so.2 => /lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00a1c000)
12:40<Alberth> libexpat.so.0 => /lib/libexpat.so.0 (0x00b75000)
12:40<Alberth>that enough?
12:40<laz0r>i've seen more
12:40<Prof_Frink>zomfsm flood
12:40<laz0r>still i would just like a simple tarball...
12:41-!-Alberth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [next time use paste.openttd.org :)]
12:42<+glx>hmm no autorejoin
12:42<@peter1138>Good riddance ;)
12:42*Prof_Frink goves DorpsGek a cookie
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12:46<saati>what is openttd doing with expat?
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12:48<+glx>freetype dependancy IIRC
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12:50<Rippsy>Anyone available who can try to connect to my server please? its running 0.6.0b3
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12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12162 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1757]: towns shouldn't build over houses owned by another town
13:11<Morloth>Btw, are the docs at : http://devs.openttd.org/~truelight/aidocs updated automagically if a new version of the NoAI branch become available?
13:11<+glx>dunno
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13:18<VLengoc>Hi
13:18<Gonozal_VIII>hi
13:18<SmatZ>hello
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13:53<Eddi|zuHause3>hmm... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png <- that is the closest i could get to a subway line... there must be better ways... did anybody make a station set that looks like it has buildings or road on top of it?
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13:54<Axamentia>eddi ive been thinking of making a subway station grf
13:54<Axamentia>i allready use gare central to make low level stations then put road round it
13:56<Axamentia>only issue is putting signals
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, that won't go away ;)
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>you could build bridges there
13:56<Eddi|zuHause3>to hide them
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13:57<Axamentia>Thats a mint idea eddi
13:58<Eddi|zuHause3>also a "problem", a subway would usually use 3rd rail, not catenary
13:58<LordAzamath>what is tubular bridge in real life?
13:58<Eddi|zuHause3>what is a real life?
13:59<LordAzamath>arghh!! you're a geek, next please
13:59<LordAzamath>Actually I need some reference picture for tubular steel bridge
13:59<ln->LordAzamath: future technology
14:00<LordAzamath>so I have to use original sprites as reference?
14:00<LordAzamath>oh gashh..
14:00<Eddi|zuHause3>the tubular bridges were originally used for the mars set
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>i think of it as some metal cage thingy
14:00<LordAzamath>hmm
14:00<LordAzamath>a 'future thing' indeed :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubular_bridge
14:00<Axamentia>Actually there was an orginal bridge in 1850 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Bridge
14:01<Axamentia>Designed by stephenson
14:01<LordAzamath>I saw that 10mins ago already :
14:01<LordAzamath>:P
14:01<Gonozal_VIII>it's transparent ingame so it's not like that
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14:02<Axamentia>lol yeah
14:02<Axamentia>But it would be the nearist Real life tech out there
14:02<LordAzamath>^^
14:02<LordAzamath>wikipedia LIES
14:03<LordAzamath>if it's not like Open, it's wrong
14:03<ln->LordAzamath: this is as good source as possible, the bridge is in Scotland: http://www.pre-engineering.com/resources/forth/forthbridge.htm
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14:04<LordAzamath>aghh..
14:05<LordAzamath>I've tried to draw several things whole today
14:05<LordAzamath>and I have failed
14:05<Gonozal_VIII>that's a nice bridge
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14:06<LordAzamath>It really sucks actually when I spend a lot time doing something, what just doesn't come right..
14:06<Axamentia>Its a very nice bridge crossing it as well!!
14:07<Gonozal_VIII>looks like they used the wrong value for gravity while constructing it or something^^
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>like 100 instead of the usual 10
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>(rounded up 9,81)
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14:09<LordAzamath>gravitation constant? sounds like that :D 9.8 N/kg
14:10<Gonozal_VIII>m/s²
14:10<Gonozal_VIII>but yes^^
14:10<Gonozal_VIII>in construction they use 10
14:11<Gonozal_VIII>and multiply with an extra factor usually somewhere around 1,5 - 2
14:12<Gonozal_VIII>at least that's what i learned in school
14:12<Axamentia>The other great briidge from that age http://www.geocities.com/plym0223/Plym0223/Dsc01290_1.jpg
14:12<Gonozal_VIII>quite massive too
14:13<Axamentia>http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/connel/connel/index.html
14:13<Gonozal_VIII>i guess materials were not that good back then, no computer simulations and of course cheaper labour
14:14<Gonozal_VIII>that one looks less overdimensioned
14:14<Axamentia>Lol computers didnt even exist, it was all mental calculations, the engineers designed the thing
14:14<Gonozal_VIII>i know that :P
14:15<Axamentia>Most engineers back then, also went for grandure, as opposed to simplicity as they wanted legacy's
14:15<LordAzamath>Gonozal_VIII: m/s2? where m would be? where S would be?
14:15<Gonozal_VIII>meter and seconds
14:15<LordAzamath>gravity?
14:15<LordAzamath>wtf?
14:15<Gonozal_VIII>acceleration in free fall
14:16<LordAzamath>gravitation constant is 10Newtons/kg
14:16<LordAzamath>new ton.. hmm
14:16<Gonozal_VIII>and newton is?
14:17<saati>N/kg == m/s^2
14:17<saati>N is m*kg/s^2
14:17<Eddi|zuHause3>1N is defined as n*kg/s^2
14:17<Eddi|zuHause3>s/n/m/
14:17<Gonozal_VIII>see... divide by kg, same thing
14:18<LordAzamath>hmm
14:19<LordAzamath>It's our first year, we're learning physics..
14:19-!-Brianetta [~brian@77-103-231-158.cable.ubr05.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:19<LordAzamath>so the things I know, I know
14:19<LordAzamath>but other things are totally black holes
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>you can express almost all advanced physics units with the base units m, s, kg and A
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>"first year" of what?
14:20<ben_goodger>LordAzamath: there's nothing total about a black whole :P
14:20<ben_goodger>*hole
14:20<LordAzamath>first year of learning physics in school
14:20<LordAzamath>8th grade
14:20<De_Ghost>a?
14:20<LordAzamath>we learned chemistry/physics previous year too, but it was under other subject
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>at least i don't know any unit that cannot be expressed with these
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>A, not a
14:21<De_Ghost>A?
14:21<De_Ghost>is what again?
14:21<LordAzamath>what is A?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>1a=10m^2
14:21<De_Ghost>area?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Ampère
14:21<De_Ghost>o
14:21<De_Ghost>no
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>unit of current
14:21<De_Ghost>what about coulumbs?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause3>you mean Coulombs ;)
14:22<saati>Eddi|zuHause3: you need K and mol too
14:22<De_Ghost>1 electron have like 1.2 -19 C
14:22<ben_goodger>the base units are m, kg, s, A, K, mol, cd
14:22<De_Ghost>mol is not a unit
14:22<ben_goodger>it is a unit
14:22<saati>it's a unit
14:22<De_Ghost>no... it's a concept
14:22<ben_goodger>it's a unit.
14:22<saati>all units are concepts
14:22<De_Ghost>not really
14:22<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's a modificator
14:22<De_Ghost>mol is a middle step
14:22<ben_goodger>the coulomb is an amp second
14:23<De_Ghost>to simpify things
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>lik kilo is 1000
14:23<saati>okay but you still need K
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>mol is <very huge number>
14:23<De_Ghost>is it
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, K
14:23<saati>~6*10^23
14:23<saati>mol
14:23<De_Ghost>i though amp is charge per second
14:23<LordAzamath>stfu, you are confuzing me.. and I don't like chemics
14:23<LordAzamath>nor physics
14:23<LordAzamath>^^
14:23<ln->LordAzamath: it's chemistry
14:23<De_Ghost>amp is not the base
14:23<De_Ghost>coulumb is the bas
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>but you could try to express K by J
14:24<ben_goodger>De_Ghost: no, the amp is the base
14:24<saati>the SI base is A
14:24<saati>you could use C as the base
14:24<LordAzamath>LordAzamath wrote: "we learned chemistry/physics previous year too, but it was under other subject"
14:24<saati>it does not matter
14:24<LordAzamath>I know
14:24<De_Ghost>under religion?
14:24<LordAzamath>but it's shorter
14:24<De_Ghost>GOD MADE IT THAT WAY
14:24<De_Ghost>lol
14:24<ben_goodger>A=Cs, C=A/s
14:25<LordAzamath>De_Ghost: We don't study religion
14:25<Axamentia>gah
14:25<LordAzamath>A=CounterStrike
14:25-!-fjb [~frank@p5485DB06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:25<fjb>Hello
14:25<saati>what is .ee?
14:25<LordAzamath>hello
14:25<Eddi|zuHause3>estonia
14:25<De_Ghost>i though es is estonia
14:25<LordAzamath>saati: .ee is domain name for Estonia
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>bunnyland
14:25<LordAzamath>es is Spain
14:25<LordAzamath>I think
14:25<saati>yes it is
14:26<LordAzamath>and estonia is ee or sometimes et
14:26<saati>it has two tlds?
14:26<ln->LordAzamath: wrong
14:26<ln->it doesn't.
14:26<LordAzamath>very rarely
14:26<ln->et is the LANGUAGE code.
14:26<LordAzamath>so what
14:26<LordAzamath>I said domain names are ee
14:26*Axamentia wishes musical units where as organized sometimes
14:27<LordAzamath>but estonia has abbrevitation of et too
14:27<saati>okay but the original question was about the tld of your host
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>what's on the international car signs for estonia?
14:28<Prof_Frink>ln-: And the language code "uk" is Ukranian.
14:28<ben_goodger>Axamentia: decimalising musical notation wouldn't work, unfortunately
14:28<LordAzamath>ofcourse, you don't have United Kingdom language.. :P
14:28<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, decimalise the octave :p
14:28<LordAzamath>what's on the international car signs for estonia?>>> EST
14:28<ben_goodger>.uk does belong to the UK, though
14:28<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause3: Holly did that when he was bored
14:28<Eddi|zuHause3>that'll be fun ;)
14:29<Axamentia>ben: very true, decimalising music, would be intresting
14:29<Prof_Frink>ben_goodger: indeed.
14:29<Eddi|zuHause3>holly who?
14:29<VLengoc>?
14:29<Prof_Frink>Holly.
14:29<LordAzamath>holly dolly
14:29<VLengoc>lol
14:29<Prof_Frink>The computer of the JMC Red Dwarf
14:29<Eddi|zuHause3>LordAzamath: no, that is hello dolly ;)
14:29<VLengoc>ive been installing opensuse.
14:29<saati>why suse
14:29<VLengoc>ubuntu
14:30<VLengoc>was crap
14:30<saati>we have a saying about suse in our language
14:30<saati>suse sose
14:30<VLengoc>k
14:30<saati>it means suse never
14:30<saati>:)
14:30<VLengoc>i tell you what
14:30<VLengoc>it takes along time to boot up ;(
14:31<Eddi|zuHause3>how often do you boot?
14:31<VLengoc>ive just installed it
14:31<VLengoc>on virtual pc 2007
14:31<LordAzamath>Eddi|zuHause3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IDITMOfwO8&feature=related
14:31<LordAzamath>and that's ON-topic youtube link :P
14:32<Eddi|zuHause3>oh no!!
14:32<VLengoc>what>?
14:32<LordAzamath>I know Eddi|zuHause3, it's my favourite too... NOOT
14:32<LordAzamath>!!
14:33<VLengoc>that vid is just...strange
14:35<ln->another on-topic yt link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnqsaB02SdE
14:36<VLengoc>opensuse is stil loading
14:36<VLengoc>*sigh*
14:36<Axamentia>Omg that holly folly thing hurts my ears
14:36<LordAzamath>ln-: How come it's on-topic?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause3>VLengoc: you make a test in a virtual pc, and then complain that it is slow? get serious...
14:37<VLengoc>lol
14:37<LordAzamath>it's like.... 20 years old commercial
14:37<LordAzamath>or more
14:37<LordAzamath>anyway, older than me :D
14:38<Eddi|zuHause3>you had commercials 20 years ago?
14:39<VLengoc>lol
14:39<saati>i remember some
14:39<saati>actually i remember one
14:39<Eddi|zuHause3>no, honestly... here, commercials were considered "western imperialistic brainwashing" or something
14:39<saati>it was about how secure our nuclear power plant was
14:40<saati>after chernobyl they thought they have to tell that to everyone :)
14:40<saati>Eddi|zuHause3: we were in the eastern block too
14:40<Eddi|zuHause3>radiation from Tschernobyl skipped the GDR :p
14:40<saati>and there were some commercials here
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause3>saati: yes, i know, that is why i was asking
14:41*LordAzamath started 64*64 map
14:41<Eddi|zuHause3>the opinion around here was that socialistic communities do not need commercials
14:42<saati>i dont remember the opinion, just seeing some, and i know from archives there were before i was born too
14:42<saati>not for western thing tough
14:42<saati>things
14:42<Eddi|zuHause3>of course not ;)
14:43<saati>i am glad it collapsed before i was 5
14:44<Eddi|zuHause3>there used to be commercials in the 50s and 60s, but they were abolished
14:45<saati>you lived in the ddr?
14:46<ln->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUywth1pmFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gALtmJmn1tA
14:46<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
14:47<saati>they named a memory type after it :)
14:47<saati>it still survives :)
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14:48<ln->also DDR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHen6e-78C8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LlVdmtYOBg
14:49<Eddi|zuHause3>"Werbefilme wurden ab 1976 nicht mehr im Fernsehen oder Kino ausgestrahlt"
14:53<saati>what does that mean?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause3>means that commercials stopped to be shown in 1976
14:54<saati>ic
14:54<saati>bye
14:55<Eddi|zuHause3>inofficially, because it makes no sense to show commercials for products that are not available anyway ;) (like you needed to wait up to 18 years to get a car)
14:55<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: but wasn't Nintendo advertising Wii in the UK less than 6 months ago despite it not being available
14:56<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think east german reasoning propagated to japanese companies very much ;)
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15:00<@peter1138>"stopped to be shown"? heh
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15:10<ln->http://www.airliners.net/photo/Interflug/Interflug/1253183
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, that was the east german airline
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15:29<Wolf01>'night
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15:34<ln->http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0649069&size=L&width=1024&height=788
15:39<fjb>http://www.myimg.de/?img=NorthernExpress5Aug19c78cb.png
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16:11<LordAzamath>why are everybody so quiet?
16:11<LordAzamath>I'm not that scary, am I?
16:11<Axamentia>lmao
16:14<LordAzamath>ok good night
16:15<LordAzamath>you can now start talking ^^
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16:15<ben_goodger>hmm
16:16<ben_goodger>is there any plan to make openttd's scale more realistic? maybe add more angles to the rendering engine so that corners are turned as smoothly in RCT?
16:16<ln->no.
16:16<SmatZ>:-)
16:16<ben_goodger>oh.
16:16<ben_goodger>well, that's unfortunate
16:17*SmatZ is often thinking about replying just "no" to a questiong at tt-forums. But then, he decides not to do that...
16:17<ben_goodger>mmm
16:17<ben_goodger>nothing came of the effort to develop a 3d TTD clone by the forum members then
16:18<ben_goodger>also unfortunate
16:18<SmatZ>3D GUI, or whole 3D map?
16:19<ben_goodger>the whole hog
16:20<ben_goodger>32-bit on-the-fly-rendered scalable 3D graphics, done in opengl with shiney graphical realism, better physics, etc
16:20<SmatZ>:-)
16:20<ben_goodger>curvy tracks
16:20<Axamentia>how long do you have ben?
16:21<ben_goodger>until about four AM UCT, why?
16:21<ln->i thought the answer was expected in centimeters.
16:21<Axamentia>It takes a long time to make one model with real pysics, nevermind the engine requiredfor it
16:22<ben_goodger>I was under the impression (from my physics classes) that classical mechanics was reasonably easy
16:22<Axamentia>it would be nice, but a lot of work
16:22<ben_goodger>I could probably assemble a decent movement model in about a week, given data
16:23<Axamentia>And it would have to be deffinatly rendered by the gpu
16:23<ben_goodger>yes. that's the actual hard bit.
16:24<ben_goodger>physics isn't a problem, building a 3d engine from scratch (since nobody could agree to use ogre or blender) _is)
16:24<ben_goodger>ho hum
16:25<Axamentia>3d engines are not easy to build! most modern games, even use engines by other software houses
16:25<ln->what would the poor children in africa think about writing a 3d engine from scratch?
16:25<ben_goodger>I just said that
16:26<@peter1138>Well, isn't there Transport Empire?
16:26<ben_goodger>ln-: the poor children in africa would need a number of years of training before they understood the term "3d engine"
16:27<ben_goodger>and I think transport empire is what I'm talking about
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16:28<ben_goodger>oh..
16:28<ben_goodger>I thought it was abandoned, but here it is all working again
16:28<ln->is there any code in Transport Empire yet?
16:29<ben_goodger>can't tell
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16:29<remaxim>hi Belugas, are you somewhere near?
16:29<ben_goodger>you'd need a degree in theology to derive some sort of definite information from the forums if you hadn't taken part in the discussions
16:31<@peter1138>Plus they've made it difficult to post there...
16:31<ben_goodger>looks like things are happening
16:31<ben_goodger>and someone has taken charge.
16:32<ben_goodger>now we just need to wait about five years before the project is declared dead again *cough*blackmesasource*cough*
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16:33<ln->btwbtw, does there happen to be a sort of "terrain library" for drawing tile-based worlds in OpenGL?
16:34<ln->and handling things like translating mouse coordinates to tile coordinates.
16:36<ben_goodger>ah, yes, here's your rant on it being hard to reply
16:36<ben_goodger>ln-: ogre has that built-in
16:36<ben_goodger>or at least it has a heightmap style thingie that you can link to coordinate placement systems
16:37<ln->the last time i looked at ogre it was so hard to build and run the sample programs that i decided to wait a few years.
16:38<ben_goodger>depends on your environment
16:38<ben_goodger>reports from my friend seem to suggest that ogre throws rocks at you if you're using VB
16:39<ln->i use this thing called "linux"
16:39<ben_goodger>VS, rather
16:39<ben_goodger>and, oh
16:39<ben_goodger>I also use linux
16:39<ben_goodger>linux format ran a story on it recently, it didn't seem that difficult to actually program with
16:40<ben_goodger>I haven't tried running the sample programs on linux [nvidia]
16:50<fjb>The next problem will be the number of vehicles in an active TTD game. You have to calculate the physics for some hundred vehicles every tick.
16:51<ben_goodger>well...
16:51<ben_goodger>they can only follow certain paths
16:52<ben_goodger>that removes most of the calculation.
16:52<ben_goodger>the speed is quite easy once you've done that...
16:52<fjb>How many vehicles did you have in your games yet?
16:53<ben_goodger>about three hundred
16:53<fjb>I have senn more in some network games.
16:53<ben_goodger>nobody has yet derived a Competition Commission to prevent me from buying and asset-stripping my competitors
16:54<ben_goodger>there is nothing evil in physics
16:55<fjb>A full 3D OpenTTD would require far more CPU power than the latest shooters.
16:55<ben_goodger>the only things to do are multiplication, division and very basic trigonometric functions if you want those
16:55<Axamentia>fjb agreed
16:55<ben_goodger>I don't see that it would
16:55<Axamentia>even some of the modern fps genre 3d games, struggle, unless played on top end computers
16:56<+glx><fjb> A full 3D OpenTTD would require far more CPU power than the latest shooters. <-- 3D cards are made for that :)
16:56<ben_goodger>openttd has quite a complex acceleration algorithm nowadays, and it manages fine
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16:56<@peter1138>Complex and crap
16:56<ben_goodger>well...
16:56<fjb>I don't think that you couls offload everything to the §D card, even if some get physics engines.
16:57<ben_goodger>I think it's only crap considering the scale
16:57<ben_goodger>we have trains the size of office blocks
16:57<Axamentia>The load for 1000+ vechs in motion, would be huge
16:57<Sacro>!seen blathijs
16:57<Sacro>@seen blathijs
16:57<@DorpsGek>Sacro: blathijs was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 3 hours, 17 minutes, and 1 second ago: * blathijs has never heard of the term
16:58<ben_goodger>there is also the matter of there only being 45-degree turns and constant uphill grades
16:58<fjb>Civilisation has military units the size of a whole town. Who cares?
16:58<ben_goodger>fjb: well, those military units aren't being asked to move realistically
16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>civilisation was never meant to be scaled :)
16:58<fjb>TTD neither...
16:59<Axamentia>Realistic scale is good, but sometimes artistic license for gameplays sake, makes things more playable
16:59<Eddi|zuHause3>berlin has the size of entire germany ;)
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16:59<fjb>And think about how many tiles a map would require...
16:59<ben_goodger>tiles are for early-nineties sims
16:59<Eddi|zuHause3>civ has no 2048x2048 maps ;)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>TT _is_ an early nineties sim
17:00<ben_goodger>let me introduce you to Cartesian geometry and the decimal system
17:00<ben_goodger>:P
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>floating point arithmetics is bad for multiplayer
17:01<@peter1138>All things for a new game from scratch.
17:01<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: counter-strike seems to manage fine
17:02<fjb>And only for a few high end computers.
17:02<Eddi|zuHause3>counterstrike has no 8MB game state to synchronise every tick
17:02<fjb>ben_goodger: Count the movable things in counter strike.
17:02<fjb>How many players are in counterstrike at the same time?
17:02<ben_goodger>fjb: a few hundred moving things tends to be the maximum before it slows down, and you can have about thirty players
17:03<fjb>And how big is the map in a counter strike game?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause3>counterstrike has no dynamically changing map
17:03<Eddi|zuHause3>a 2048x2048 map has 2 million objects before any player even doing anything
17:03<ben_goodger>fjb: it doesn't have a tiled map. it uses the decimal system
17:03<Axamentia>and Npc items tend to have stored location co-ordinated, and are only generated when in view
17:03*SpComb creates a custom hardware ttd acceleration chip
17:04<fjb>ben_goodger: A counterstrike player is equal to a TTD vehicle. Think about counterstrike with 1000 players in one game.
17:04<SmatZ>is Random() needed in CS? everything is handled by the server anyway (the decision if you hit someone)
17:04<ben_goodger>no, it's not
17:04<ben_goodger>a CS player is completely different to a TTD vehicle
17:04<fjb>ben_goodger: Where is the difference?
17:05<ben_goodger>a TTD vehicle is a ridiculously simple thing to make a physics model for. believe me, I'm a physics student
17:05<Eddi|zuHause3>now again: 100 dynamic objects in CS, several million objects on a TT map
17:05<Eddi|zuHause3>which one is easier to synchronize?
17:05<fjb>ben_goodger: You will write the new physics engine for OpenTTD? Great.
17:05<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: TT using a proper game engine would _not_ _be_ _using_ _a_ _map_
17:06<Axamentia>Ben: the physics may be simple, calculating a vast quantity of them and thier locations isnt
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>ben_goodger: you still have several million trees and houses
17:06<ben_goodger>fjb: no, you can just vastly simplify one of the many open-source ones
17:06<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: trees and houses aren't physics objects
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3>that each grow individually
17:07<Eddi|zuHause3>they are part of the game state, that needs synchronizing
17:08<Eddi|zuHause3>every single bit of the game state must be the same on every client
17:08<ben_goodger>hmm
17:08<Eddi|zuHause3>you can't have that with rounding errors
17:08<Eddi|zuHause3>that turn out differently on every possible CPU
17:08<ben_goodger>sorry, what part of this problem is somehow caused by using a 3d engine?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause3>that is why you can never ever use floating point arithmetics
17:09<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem is that you cannot shove that amount of data over the network, so everything must be calculated on each client
17:09<Eddi|zuHause3>in exactly the same way
17:09<ben_goodger>right...
17:10<Eddi|zuHause3>floating point arithmetics cannot guarantee that
17:10<ben_goodger>so how is this only a problem when using a tile-less 3d engine?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause3>when using tiles, you only have integer numbers
17:11<@peter1138>tile-less can be integer
17:11<ben_goodger>yes...
17:11<@peter1138>you can emulate decimals
17:11<ben_goodger>so when the front of the train is between tiles, or at one end of a tile, what then?
17:11<Prof_Frink>Don't count tiles.
17:11<Prof_Frink>Count blades of grass
17:12<Axamentia>lol
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>peter1138: yes, but which "established" physics/graphics engine does that?
17:12<ben_goodger>it's a serious question
17:12<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, no idea...
17:12<@peter1138>ben_goodger, there is no between tiles :)
17:12<ben_goodger>there bloody well is
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>ben_goodger: currently, a tile is separated into individual steps (like 32)
17:13<ben_goodger>right
17:13<ben_goodger>so the train is in position 542268 and one thirty-second
17:13-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F55E39.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:14<@peter1138>Unless by between you mean inside...
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>ben_goodger: in the gamebalance branch there was introduced a fixed-point arithmetics
17:14<ben_goodger>I do
17:14<ben_goodger>sorry, there's fixed-point as well?
17:14<ben_goodger>I don't know a great deal about the numerical systems of C
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>it doesn't have anything to do with C
17:15<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, OpenGL is generally used with floats, but works perfectly well with integers...
17:15<Eddi|zuHause3>fixed point is mainly an integer, where you assume the "0" bit is somewhere in the middle
17:15<ben_goodger>it has everything to do with C, unless you're machine-coding your own numerical system
17:15<Eddi|zuHause3>so if normal integer is "0000."
17:15<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: right... no problems there
17:15<Eddi|zuHause3>fixed point can be "00.00"
17:16<ben_goodger>yep
17:16<@peter1138>The only problem is this will not happen in a TTD-based game, heh...
17:16<Eddi|zuHause3>the point does not shift anywhere, like with floating point, where you also encode the position of the point dynamically (exponent)
17:16<ben_goodger>ok
17:17<Eddi|zuHause3>C does not natively offer fixed point arithmetics
17:17<ben_goodger>can you have the point position as 0?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause3>it's purely a user interpretation of the integer type
17:17<ben_goodger>ok then
17:17<@peter1138>Remind me what bit of the argument this is about? :p
17:18<Eddi|zuHause3>i am just explaining facts, not arguing ;)
17:19<ben_goodger>peter1138: it's whether using a cartesian decimal system instead of a tile system will introduce random error to multiplayer systems, which must always produce the same calculation result as it is impossible to sync the state every few milliseconds
17:20<@peter1138>Right. Not with fixed point or integer arithmetic...
17:20<Eddi|zuHause3>but to come back to your initial thought, how should a "physics engine" improve the way trackbits are stored in the map, without making it exponentially bigger?
17:21<ben_goodger>trackbits? map?
17:22<@peter1138>Well, track layout needs to be stored somewhere.
17:22<ben_goodger>oh
17:22<Eddi|zuHause3>well, you do need a way to store where the track is, which direction it takes, and which track sections are adjacent to it
17:23<Eddi|zuHause3>currently, each tile can have 6 possible "track bits"
17:23<ben_goodger>you keep the track as a vector
17:23<ben_goodger>bezier, probably
17:23<Eddi|zuHause3>fine, but how do you efficiently get a track from the coordinates?
17:24<ben_goodger>I don't follow
17:24<Eddi|zuHause3>to e.g. find out wether you can build something there?
17:24<ben_goodger>oh, right.
17:24<ben_goodger>collision detection
17:24<Eddi|zuHause3>key word there is "efficiently"
17:24<ben_goodger>mmm
17:25<ben_goodger>I don't know how efficient collision detection works, but it must work, otherwise stuff wouldn't be based on it
17:25<@peter1138>You can use a hash of all objects which intersect an area (like a tile, really...)
17:25<Eddi|zuHause3>collision detection (of trains) is one of the most time consuming algorithms in openttd
17:25<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: not actual collisions ("three die in fireball, humpington transport bankrupted")
17:26<ben_goodger>presumably this slowness results from the fractions-of-a-tile mechanism that is being used
17:26<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it's the same algorithm
17:27<Eddi|zuHause3>well, "fraction of a tile" is the same as "fixed point arithmetics"
17:27<@peter1138>Or integer...
17:27<ben_goodger>stuff is generally a lot faster when using vectors. you can use all sorts of complicated mathematical tricks that are beyond my knowledge and eradicate the need for a lot of computation
17:28<ben_goodger>you could, for instance, evaluate the track function
17:29<ben_goodger>so if the track is of form y=23.4x² and you want to check (12,3.7634) you can put that x value in and see if it comes up with that y
17:29<Eddi|zuHause3>"the track"... how do you model switches and crossings then?
17:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12163 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1705]: if a train is 'stopping' when entering a depot, do not let it leave again
17:29<ben_goodger>i.e. does 23.4*12² = 3.7634? obviously not
17:30<ben_goodger>I'm not sure how switches and such are modelled
17:30<Eddi|zuHause3>ben_goodger: the problem with collision detection that way is, that objects extend in more than one dimension
17:31<Eddi|zuHause3>a track has 2 dimensions, first the direction of travel, and second the width of the track
17:31<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: yes. you would need to find the equations of the parallel line
17:31<Eddi|zuHause3>a vehicle has 3 dimensions
17:31<@peter1138>Finding equations... heh
17:31<Gonozal_VIII>all trains have the same width
17:31<fjb>No
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause3>and you have to check these equations for every single combination of objects you have
17:32<ben_goodger>finding the equations wouldn't be that difficult
17:32<ben_goodger>anyway, my knowledge of this is exceedingly vague. you should ask http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11792
17:32<Eddi|zuHause3>that is O(n^2) in the number of objects
17:32<ben_goodger>you should ask PJayTycy, rather
17:33<ben_goodger>and you should also see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13159
17:33-!-fjb_ [~frank@p5485C7D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:33<Eddi|zuHause3>this last fact is the really problematic one
17:33*ben_goodger wanders off humming
17:36*ben_goodger returns with overdiluted apple squash
17:36<ben_goodger>what last fact?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause3>the O(n^2) complexity
17:37<ben_goodger>ah
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>btw how is the position of a vehicle on the map stored?
17:37<ben_goodger>where f(n) = O(n²) what is f(n), O and n?
17:38<ben_goodger>Gonozal_VIII: it should be stored as a distance along a track in a particular direction
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation
17:39<ben_goodger>well, yes...
17:39<ben_goodger>but what are the variables referring to
17:39<ben_goodger>?
17:39<ben_goodger>anyway, it doesn't much matter
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>n is the number of (vector-)objects in the game
17:40-!-fjb [~frank@p5485DB06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: v->x_position or something
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>16 bit?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: and a GetVehicleFromTile() function
17:41<ben_goodger>we're abandoning tiles, remember
17:41<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: ever heard of grep?
17:41<ben_goodger>or do you mean in the current codebase?
17:42<Gonozal_VIII>ok.. vectors
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>ben_goodger: actually, you the only thing you can do is redefining the "resolution" of tiles, as long as you have integers, you have tiles
17:42<ben_goodger>well, yes
17:42<ben_goodger>but you needn't put anything on them
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>you do
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and you still have 10 million trees to put somewhere
17:43<ben_goodger>and there are multiple tile resolutions operating simultaneously
17:43<ben_goodger>anyway, it's not terribly relevant
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i am not fundamentally against vector operations, but you still have not shown any evidence that you can do this remotely as efficient as the current system
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>pathfinding could work good with vectors
17:49<Gonozal_VIII>but drawing and storing all the stuff.. i don't know
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18:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12164 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r12137, FS#1775]: Variable scope bug crept in
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18:23<dih>@seen Bjarni
18:23<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 10 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> besides spelled in a stupid way
18:23<dih>:-(
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18:51<fjb>Is there a maximum number of stations per town?
18:53<Tekky>I think there is the maximum of one airport per town.
18:53<ln->per company
18:53<Tekky>but I don't know of any limit of train stations or bus stops.
18:53<fjb>I know, only two airports. But I thought about bus stops.
18:55<Sionide>there's a limit when it runs out of names isn't there?
18:56<Sionide>rename some stations to other things..
18:56<Sionide>or has that been fixed?
18:57<fjb>That has been fixed.
18:58*Sionide is quite behind the times
18:58<Sionide>it's hard to keep up with small changes like that!
19:00<ln->is there a scientific term for the phobia of being afraid to touch objects in the fear of static electricity shocks?
19:01<fjb>I bet there is one.
19:01<Sionide>hm, i have that
19:01<Sionide>sh
19:01<Sionide>ish*
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19:05<ben_goodger>hmm
19:07<fjb>The combination of YAPP and passenger destination patch makes it a new game.
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19:08<ben_goodger>?
19:08<Sionide>woah
19:08<Sionide>pax destinations works now?
19:08<ben_goodger>I think that was what annoyed me most about simutrans
19:09<fjb>At least it doesn't crash for me. Didn't test it in a network game yet.
19:09<ben_goodger>does it behave more sensibly than that?
19:09<ln->what annoys me the most in simutrans is the small size of graphics.
19:09*fjb never played simultrans.
19:10<ben_goodger>the passengers would not get on unless you were running a service to somewhere they wanted to go
19:10<ben_goodger>which made a lot of things very difficult
19:13<fjb>You at least have to build a network. Without that patch you only have to build two airports and get rich in no time.
19:14<ben_goodger>ah
19:14<ben_goodger>I always thought that air was ridiculously high-cost
19:15<ben_goodger>though I did spend a game on rail once and then purchased a plane that doubled my profit
19:15<ben_goodger>the trouble is that the towns never develop fast enough, and that they do not grow realistically
19:16<Sionide>you can change how fast towns grow though, or you talking simutrans still?
19:16<Eddi|zuHause3>there are now "cities" that grow faster
19:16<ben_goodger>right
19:16<ben_goodger>still a problem with growth realism that probably can't be fixed very easily
19:17-!-ThePizzaKing [~jeff@c211-28-165-110.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
19:18<fjb>You can make a town grow faster with a simple trick. Build 5 bus stops and buy a bus that services them.
19:18<ben_goodger>incidentally, how did the name problem get fixed?
19:18<fjb>Stations get numbers.
19:18<ben_goodger>ah
19:19<Sionide>more names? i could think of some
19:19<ben_goodger>yeah
19:19<ben_goodger>parkway, for instance, for use a long distance from a town
19:20<fjb>You can see what is does now here: http://www.myimg.de/?img=NorthernExpress5Aug19c78cb.png
19:20<ben_goodger>such as bodmin parkway, which is closer to another town on the same line
19:20<ben_goodger>oh...
19:20<ben_goodger>nice network
19:21<ben_goodger>nice town and roads, come to think of it
19:22<fjb>That isn't a planed network. Just three tram lines, a railway mainline and a small branchline to the center of the town.
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19:22<fjb>The roads and the buildings are from the north american sets.
19:23<ben_goodger>ah
19:24<Sionide>the transport stuff in simcity4 rush hour has so much potential to be cool, but it sucks
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19:24<Sionide>you can see all the sims routes to work, from their houses, what mode of transport they use
19:24<Sionide>but once you start trying to put any kind of mass transport network in, it's rubbish
19:25<fjb>What happens then? And how do the sims travel?
19:25-!-a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-88-79.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
19:26<Sionide>by car
19:26<ben_goodger>you can either have a huge road network, or they will walk about five tiles
19:26<Sionide>making air pollution and congestion
19:26<fjb>The game is from an US company I guess.
19:26<Sionide>there's various stuff you can do
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19:27<ben_goodger>metro networks, buses, rail (I never worked out how to make the rail networks actually do anything), elevated rail are all possible
19:27<ben_goodger>oh, and ferries
19:27<ben_goodger>and airports
19:27<Sionide>ben_goodger, think you need to connect rail to neighbour city
19:27<ben_goodger>but they all cost a huge amount, except the buses which are useless
19:27<Sionide>elevated is weird too
19:28<ben_goodger>mm
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause3><insert suitible topic transition here>
19:33<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.orschlurch.de/video/kakadu-bites-the-dust.html
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19:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12165 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1652, FS#1773]: buffer overflow when drawing scrolling news
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19:51<Saladan0>Cool
19:51<Saladan0>Alot of people in here
19:52<Saladan0>Anyone feel nice enough to help a new guy out?
19:52<maverique>can somebody give me an hint how i can copy the needed files into the openTTD folder under ubuntu linux?
19:54<maverique>i tryed cp, it's not working
19:54<+glx>it should
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19:55<+glx>but you may need to "sudo cp"
19:55<maverique>he alsways says that he skipped the folder where i ahve the files
19:55<Sionide>use nautilus?
19:56<maverique>i sue console
19:56<maverique>i not shure i am newbie
19:56-!-Jortuny [~octernion@r253186120.resnet.cornell.edu] has joined #openttd
19:56<+glx>cp /path/to/trg*.grf /path/to/openttd/data
19:57<+glx>and don't forget sample.cat :)
19:57<Saladan0>:<
19:58<@Belugas>Saladan0, ask what you need to know, not if someone can help you ;)
19:59<Saladan0>thats the thing. I dont know what I need to know. I need experience, but none of the multiplayer servers are any help.
19:59<Saladan0>So im forced to come here and hopefully hop in a private game to see how pros play.
19:59-!-a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-88-79.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
20:00<@Belugas>hehe
20:00<@Belugas>i could not help you a lot...
20:01<@Belugas>maybe a dev, but not great a player
20:01<@Belugas>and even not on MP ;)
20:01<@Belugas>but i am not alone in here, as you know. So maybe ANYONE in here could give you a hand ;)
20:01<@Belugas>plus, have you read the wiki?
20:02<@Belugas>not necesseraly the award winning spot, but usefull stuff in there too
20:02<Sionide>Saladan0, spectate an openttd-coop game :)
20:02-!-Rippsy [~Rippsy@87.127.122.215] has quit []
20:03<Saladan0>Thats what I want to
20:03<Saladan0>but I need to wait until the chance arrives
20:04<Saladan0>The best case scenario is if somebody in here says "Hey, Im going to host a game, any want to join?"
20:04<Saladan0>Then ill join
20:05<maverique>what do i ahve to do to start the game now?
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20:11<maverique>what do i ahve to do to start the game now?
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20:16<fjb>type "openttd"
20:17<maverique>error can't open sample.cat
20:18<maverique>he says that it's brocken or not there
20:18<maverique>but it is there
20:20<fjb>Do you have the rights to read it?
20:20<maverique>how do i change the rights?
20:21<fjb>How about learning to use your os first?
20:21<Sionide>harsh but fair
20:21<Sionide>maverique, don't use console if you don't know what you're doing with it
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20:22<maverique>but i can't change it on gui
20:22<Saladan0>So people often come in here to set up games?
20:23<fjb>Not that often. And most of them know how to use their computer.
20:23<Saladan0>...huh?
20:23<maverique>i am new on linux onb windows that's all easier !!
20:23<Sionide>Saladan0, http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Main_Page OpenTTD Coop is the place to be
20:24<Sionide>maverique, it isn't *easier* it's just different.
20:24<Sionide>and it's not even that different
20:24<Saladan0>Oh
20:24<maverique>well ion linux it tells me i am not allowed to copy files in
20:24<Saladan0>Thanks a bunch Sionide
20:24<Saladan0>and Belugas
20:25<Saladan0>Its such a rarity to find helpfull *nice* people these days
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20:25<Sionide>Saladan0, that's where i learnt.. partly anyway. partly self-taught, partly just pick stuff up here and there, heh
20:25<Sionide>... :/
20:25<Sionide>d'oh!
20:25<maverique>and change rights are also blocked for me
20:26<Sionide>ugh
20:26-!-Phantasm [ghost@hack.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:26<Sionide>it's because you've installed openttd from the repositories which is just annoying
20:27<Sionide>download a tarball and extract it to somewhere in your home directory and you'll have rights to do stuff like change files
20:27<Sionide>do you want me to tell you the commands to do that?
20:28<maverique>yea
20:28<Sionide>wget http://nightly.openttd.org/latest/OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162.tar.gz
20:29<Sionide>tar zxvf OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162.tar.gz
20:29<Sionide>with me so far/
20:29<Sionide>?
20:29<Sionide>do this in your home dir!
20:29<Sionide>so, do
20:30<Sionide>cd ~
20:30<Sionide>first
20:30<Sionide>ok
20:30<Sionide>wget http://nightly.openttd.org/latest/OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162.tar.gz
20:30<Sionide>tar zxvf OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162.tar.gz
20:30<Sionide>then
20:30<ln->stop!
20:30<Sionide>uggghh why?
20:31<ln->for f's sake, you don't have to press enter after every word.
20:31<Sionide>oh, sorry.... just trying to put commands on new lines so it's not too confusing for maverique
20:32-!-a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-88-79.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:32<maverique>i ahve it unpacjed in my home folder
20:32<Sionide>cp /path/to/trg*.grf ~/OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162/data
20:33<Sionide>cp /path/to/sample.cat ~/OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162/data
20:33<Sionide>cd ~/OTTD-linux-i686-nightly-r12162
20:33<Sionide>./openttd
20:33<Sionide>done
20:33<Sionide>^ works for me
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20:35<maverique>not working...
20:36<ln->congratulations for this remarkably accurate problem description.
20:36-!-Diabolic-Angel [~dia@xdsl-81-173-248-192.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:36<maverique>he stuck with the one installed from .deb
20:39<maverique>i removed the over installed one
20:41<fjb>http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/
20:41<Arbitrary>shared library missing?
20:41<maverique>i turned off the machine
20:42-!-Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54B74A94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:42<maverique>so i will freez that till i am awake again
20:42<Arbitrary>:(){:|:&};: looking more attractive by the second, death by missing limits.conf
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21:17<fjb>Good night.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 17 00:00:42 2008