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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-02-24

---Logopened Sun Feb 24 00:00:34 2008
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03:25<Wolf01>hello
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03:26<yorick>hello
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05:27<Yorick>dbg: [misc] Your script made an error: the index 'FindRoute' does not exist :(
05:31<Yorick>hmm...why isn't that pathfinderStupid working
05:31<Yorick>I know it wouldn't be connecting things
05:31<Yorick>biut it should not throw me an error
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05:42<LordAzamath>hello
05:43<Yorick>hello
05:43*Yorick needs some help with NoAI
05:44<LordAzamath>It seems I never become fond of TTDP... I just tried to start a new game, but then I found building rail very slow when compared to autorail tool in Open...
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06:15<Yorick>how about making chat possible in Single Player?
06:16<Yorick>chatting with AI's :)
06:16<Wolf01>yes, why not, and why not make the AI able to reply at you?
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06:16<Yorick>NoAI :)
06:17<Wolf01>i already had some troubles with megahal, he started to think and tried to take control of my pc
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06:54<Yorick>is there anyone that can help me with NoAI?
06:55<Gekz>No.
06:55<Yorick>is there anyone that can slap TrueBrain awake then?
06:55<Yorick>he's back into NoAI for the moment
06:56<SpComb>don't think he does IRC anymore
06:56<SpComb>oh, he does, but just not this channel
06:57<SpComb>/whois TrueBrain shows #openttd.noai
06:57<Yorick>I tried contacting him on openttd.noai
06:57<ln->send him snail mail.
06:58<Yorick>huh?
06:59<ln->http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_%28brief%29
06:59<Yorick>too slow
07:02<Gonozal_VIII>tnt post? sounds dangerous
07:03<Yorick>hehe
07:04<Yorick>it was first PTT Post, then TPG Post, and now TNT Post
07:04<Yorick>they can't choose the name
07:04<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know what language that is but i can read a lot of it :-)
07:04<Yorick>dutch?
07:05<Gonozal_VIII>maybe
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07:20<blathijs>Gonozal_VIII: Dutch and German are pretty similar :-)
07:21<globester>alike, not similar :/
07:21<Yorick>:/
07:24<Yorick>ah please...there must be someone that can help me with NoAI
07:24<Gekz>Dutch and german are not similar
07:25<Gekz>they are as similar as German and English
07:25<Gekz>Germanic.
07:25<Gekz>that's it.
07:25<globester>do you think sim city 3000 will work on my poor laptop? :/
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07:26<Gekz>lol
07:27<blathijs>Actually, I really can't find any notable difference in meaning between alike and similar...
07:27<blathijs>Gekz: And actually, German and Dutch are more similar than English and Dutch at any rate...
07:28<Gekz>blathijs: depends on what you call similar.
07:28<blathijs>Easy to understand one if you know the other :-)
07:28<Gekz>lol
07:28<globester>i think similar also includes grammar
07:28<globester>which is quite different between dutch and german
07:28<blathijs>Perhaps "Easy" isn't exactly the right work, though
07:29<globester>but most european languages are similar
07:29<blathijs>Then I should say similar in vocabulary
07:29<blathijs>:-)
07:29<globester>exceptions being magyar and finnish
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07:30<Gonozal_VIII>magyar?
07:31<Gonozal_VIII>ah, hungarian
07:31<blathijs>Is Magyar the Hungarian name for Hungarian?
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07:33<globester>i think it's the name of the people living there
07:33<globester>atleast historically
07:34<globester>you'll see them as magyar on older maps
07:34<globester>atleast up to 1919 i think
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07:53<Ammller>Hey, is there a general switch to bring more brightness in GRFs?
07:53<Ammller>OpenGFX seems so darf
07:53<Ammller>dark
07:54<Gonozal_VIII>change the brightness of your screen...
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07:56<@peter1138>Redraw the graphics so they're not so dark...
07:56<Ammller>thanks anyway :P
07:56<@peter1138>(...and brown)
07:56<Ammller>then, this is wanted?
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07:57<@peter1138>Is what wanted?
07:58<Ammller>that openGFX are much darker/browner then original?
07:58<@peter1138>I assume it is, as that is how they have been drawn.
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09:22<DaleStan><LordAzamath> It seems I never become fond of TTDP... I just tried to start a new game, but then I found building rail very slow <-- Just drag the four real rail-tools. No need for a fifth one. (and learn your [1]-[4] keyboard shortcuts)
09:26<Gonozal_VIII>keyboard shortcuts suck
09:27<Gonozal_VIII>can't support my head with my hand while using them
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09:35<LordAzamath>DaleStan: I quite realised those 1-4 keyboard buttons.. But it's easier to not have them all, and then I realised I hadn't allowed building on steep slopes, so I quit :P
09:35<LordAzamath>ok.. bbl
09:39<DaleStan>No, it's much easier to have them. Autorail requires too much precision in your clicking when you want just a single tile of track.
09:43<Gonozal_VIII>so?
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09:44<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have to use it if you're not able to move your mouse precisely enough
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause2>i occasionally get misplaced rail bits, but autorail is definitely easier than 1-4 keyboard shortcuts
09:54<Eddi|zuHause2>it's worse with autoroad, because that does not show the road piece you are going to build
09:55<Eddi|zuHause2>that should really be fixed before 0.6
09:56<Gonozal_VIII>yep
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10:17*peter1138 does not use autorail, heh
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10:19<moa3333>Hello, i like openttd very much. I have Ubuntu Hardy amd64. Could you release a deb package for amd64 please for the last beta like you did for the previous ones or give me some hints on how to do it myself?
10:20<Yorick>svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
10:20<Yorick>./configure && make
10:21<Sacro>Yorick: that is not the beta
10:21<toet>jkpl;
10:21<Sacro>beta is svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.0-beta4
10:21<Sacro>i think :s
10:22<Sacro>blathijs: who does the amd64 debs ?
10:22<blathijs>yes, it is
10:22<Sacro>zomg, he's actually here :)
10:22<blathijs>Sacro: I do, as soon as my laptop is repaired :-)
10:23<moa3333>ok i'll try that
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10:24<blathijs>moa3333: You are probably better off doing dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us -b instead of ./configure && make
10:25<blathijs>moa3333: Requires you to install dpkg-buildpackage and do an "apt-get build-dep openttd"
10:26<blathijs>Then do "svn export svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.0-beta4" to get the source
10:26<blathijs>Then do "cd 0.6.0-beta4; mv os/debian debian" to get the debian packaging info in the right place
10:26<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: i have a request for the next patch pack version, split up the new files from the patched files
10:26<blathijs>Then "dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us -b" should build a .deb for you
10:27<Sacro>how complex
10:27<Sacro>Arch you just grab the PKGBUILD and type "makepkg"
10:28<Gonozal_VIII>somebody should just add blank files with those names to trunk^^
10:28<Sacro>?why
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10:28<Gonozal_VIII>because that problem would be solved then
10:28<Gonozal_VIII>revert would blankify them again
10:28<moa3333>blathijs blathijs ok
10:29<UnderBuilder>anyone wants to do blankish ttd files for the OpenGFX proyect?
10:29<blathijs>Sacro: The mv step is mainly because openttd policy needs all os-specific stuff in os/
10:29<UnderBuilder>now there is only trg1r but what about the others?
10:29<@peter1138>UnderBuilder, simple enough for you to create one
10:30<blathijs>Sacro: And by default, Debian isn't supposed to building from source :-)
10:30<UnderBuilder>but how I create a blank sample.cat?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause2>touch sample.cat
10:30<@peter1138>"touch sample.cat"
10:31<UnderBuilder>I'm on windows...
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10:31<Yorick>so?
10:31<blathijs>right click -> create new -> text document
10:31<blathijs>then rename to sample.cat
10:31<Sacro>blathijs: neither is Arch :)
10:32<Sacro>but it is designed in such a way that you can if you so wish
10:32<blathijs>You'll have to have "hide extentions for known file types" turned off :-)
10:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i had "touch" even on Novell DOS
10:32<blathijs>Sacro: Ah, never used Arch :-)
10:32<Sacro>so if you want to do -Omg-Optimizd and -funroll-loops
10:32<Sacro>you can
10:32<Sacro>its a very lovely distro
10:32<Vikthor>Sacro: Isn't PKGBUILD something alike gentoos ebuild?
10:33<Sacro>similar idea
10:34<Eddi|zuHause2>gnah... i don't have 7z...
10:35<UnderBuilder>I did so, but the game crashed while I was testing in toyland
10:35<Vikthor>Then this -- (16:27:46) Sacro: Arch you just grab the PKGBUILD and type "makepkg" -- does not hold, making .deb is more like writing ebuild/PKGBUILD
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10:36<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: http://sevenzip.sourceforge.net/
10:36<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, and sourceforge does work horribly in konqueror
10:36<blathijs>Vikthor: No, that would be building a debian/ subdir
10:36<Sacro>Vikthor: why is it?
10:37<Sacro>PKGBUILD, e-build, spec file
10:37<Sacro>all the same idea
10:37<Sacro>but PKGBUILD is the easiest format i've yet seen
10:37<Vikthor>blathijs: Ahh yes, my fault
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10:37<UnderBuilder>the game crashes when I use blank grf files
10:37<Sacro>ooh, there is an openttd-beta 0.6.0_beta4-1
10:38<blathijs>Sacro: hmm?
10:38<Sacro>http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/openttd-beta/openttd-beta/PKGBUILD <- look how easy that is
10:38<Sacro>blathijs: arch has openttd, openttd-beta and openttd-svn
10:38<blathijs>ah, the arch package :-)
10:38<Sacro>all have different binaries and different /usr/share locations
10:41<blathijs>ah, that's kinda nice :-)
10:41<Sacro>yep
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10:58<moa3333>ok thank you, i have finished creatind the deb package
10:58<blathijs>nice :-)
10:59<moa3333>if you want i can sent it to you, i hope it works on debain, it works on Ubuntu Hardy
10:59<blathijs>moa3333: I'll just wait until my laptop comes back. I build the official deps in a clean Debian stable chroot, which ensures the dependencies are correct
11:01<moa3333>ok
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11:01<moa3333>anyway, i love this game!
11:03<globester>i dislike vista, it won't let me play dos games :(
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11:04<Yorick>google is not letting me search for A*
11:05<Sacro>Astar
11:06<Yorick>already got it
11:07<+glx>globester: try dosbox
11:07<globester>yeah, that works, but it won't let me install sc2000 :(
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11:09<Gonozal_VIII>sc2000 is a dos game?
11:10<ln->yes.
11:10<globester>it's from 93
11:10<+glx>there's a win95 version
11:13<globester>i might try mortal kombat
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11:29<UnderBuilder>why openttd crashes when I use blank grf files?
11:30<@peter1138>Because it expects a GRF file.
11:30<@peter1138>sample.cat can be an empty file, but the GRFs must be formatted correctly.
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause2>UnderBuilder: decode the original grf, replace the pcx with an empty one of same size, reencode grf
11:40<UnderBuilder>hmmm... is that legal?
11:40<LordAzamath>Eddi|zuHause2: Then he'll get white screen :P
11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>UnderBuilder: you can also write up all sprite sizes by hand...
11:41<LordAzamath>UnderBuilder: Try this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=651825#p651825
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>LordAzamath: he is trying to do the same for the other files
11:42<UnderBuilder>that's only trg1r.grf
11:42<LordAzamath>Easy..
11:42<LordAzamath>decode, open pcx in Gimp
11:42<LordAzamath>select all, and unselect the white area
11:43<LordAzamath>and then fill evrything with 0000ff
11:43<LordAzamath>All sprites get transparent
11:43<+glx>LordAzamath: no need to unselect white area ;)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause2>that is almost exactly what i said... only a dozen times more complicated
11:43<LordAzamath>It looks nicer
11:44<LordAzamath>btw, I've got a problem
11:44<LordAzamath>actionF
11:44<+glx>you can redecode it after to gave it nice ;)
11:44<Eddi|zuHause2>and the palette entry is relevant, not the RGB value
11:44<LordAzamath>Eddi|zuHause2: But that doesn't matter that palette entry is blue?
11:45<LordAzamath>it's just easier for me to say that way
11:45<+glx>what's your problem with actionF ?
11:46<LordAzamath>http://paste.openttd.org/641
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: you said you have a grf for invisible fences, is that available somewhere?
11:46<@peter1138>Sprite sizes and offsets are not important...
11:46<LordAzamath>I defined one big set
11:46<Gonozal_VIII>i what huh?
11:46<LordAzamath>and want to use it like 'set''-''set'
11:46<@peter1138>So you can make a replacement GRF that is not based on the original at all...
11:46<LordAzamath>whereas the set is the same
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: yes, i am pretty sure it was you
11:47<Gonozal_VIII>ah.. transrapid set does that... but that's just replacing the fence sprites with empty ones
11:47<LordAzamath>But it doesn't randomize for the second time..
11:47<Gonozal_VIII>-set
11:47<Gonozal_VIII>transrapid track grf thingy^^
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>do you have a standalone version of that?
11:48<Gonozal_VIII>patch graphics section in the forum..
11:48<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=34753
11:51<LordAzamath>to put it into other words... I have defined a bunch of names like this abc, where b sometimes is and sometimes isn't (empty). For example it comes up Turi. Now I want to make some names with - mark too.. But it always comes Turi-Turi in that way not for example Turi-Viljandi ...
11:51<LordAzamath>abc-abc
11:51<LordAzamath>It doesn't randomize twice..
11:51<LordAzamath>To get that effect, I should define whole list twice...
11:52<LordAzamath>so abc-def
11:52<LordAzamath>But that's twice the size and I hope there are better ways
11:52<+glx>LordAzamath: each name uses only one uint32 value
11:52<LordAzamath>which means?
11:53<+glx>the "randomisation" is based on bit start and bit count
11:53<+glx>so abc will always give the same result
11:53<LordAzamath>but every time activated, it gives different results...
11:54<LordAzamath>Is there a way then to have multiple IDs for one set?
11:54<LordAzamath>Or do I have to have duplicates for that?
11:56<+glx>each part will give the same text for a given uint32
11:56<LordAzamath>I really don't want to define it twice :(
11:57<+glx>it's the only way, and it should use different bits for the second definition
11:57<+glx>else you'll get the same text
11:57<LordAzamath>All actions have used different bits atm..
11:57<LordAzamath>All actionFs
11:57<LordAzamath>in that file
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11:58<+glx>but when you reuse 0a 0b and 0c, they reuse the same bits and give the same result
11:58<LordAzamath>But how many bits are there avilable at all? 32?
11:58<+glx>yes 32
11:58<LordAzamath>but that's bad...
11:58<+glx>the town name is this 32bit number
11:59<LordAzamath>Because I have already used 23 bits
11:59<@peter1138>2^32 town names should be enough for everyone!
11:59<LordAzamath>or I'm done something wrong
11:59<@peter1138>23 seems rather high...
11:59<@peter1138>Well, depends how many options you have :)
11:59<LordAzamath>http://paste.openttd.org/641
11:59<LordAzamath>many!
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... my grfcodec stopped working...
12:00<LordAzamath>Eddi|zuHause2: ??
12:00<+glx>3d 00 06 should be enough for the first set
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not output anything
12:00<@peter1138>LordAzamath, that only need 16 bits...
12:01<+glx>then 0B 07 04
12:01<LordAzamath>glx, before renum complained, but I'll see now, maybe I can optimize :)
12:02<+glx>0x3d = 11 1101 so 6 bits are enough :)
12:02<LordAzamath>:)
12:02<UnderBuilder>I am on windows, I only have got mspaint
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12:03<LordAzamath>ok.. all others are minimized..
12:04<LordAzamath>and that still gives me 22 bits used...
12:04<@peter1138>UnderBuilder, context?
12:04<UnderBuilder>and last version of gimp for windows is outdated
12:05<+glx>and?
12:05<+glx>it's still works
12:07<LordAzamath>hmm.. now I seem to have only* 20 bits.. :(
12:09<+glx>each abc uses 16 bits
12:10<+glx>you can have def using the other 16 bits
12:11<LordAzamath>but then I have to change the current one to use only 16 bits.. After a small recalculation, it uses 21 currently..
12:12<LordAzamath>I know one part, where I could get one bit :P
12:12<+glx>hmm right a itself is 16 bits
12:12<LordAzamath>WAIT
12:13<+glx>b is the - part
12:13<LordAzamath>no, don't wait.
12:13<LordAzamath>B is the optional middle part
12:14<+glx>yes you have a-a or a
12:14<LordAzamath>argghh. I got confuzed..
12:15<LordAzamath>but I want a-a or a where a!=a
12:15<LordAzamath>:P
12:15<+glx>0C -> 0A 0B -> 0A - 0A
12:15<LordAzamath>yes..
12:16<LordAzamath>I got confuzed by my own code
12:16<+glx>and 0A always give the same result for a given number
12:16<LordAzamath>hmm.. I want 64 bits ^^
12:17<+glx>you won't have 64bits :)
12:17<LordAzamath>ever?
12:17<+glx>32 bits are enough if you use them correctly
12:17<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... generating map takes forever...
12:17<+glx>you can reuse some bits too
12:17<LordAzamath>how?
12:18<LordAzamath>wait, I'll guess
12:18<LordAzamath>I can use the same bits for different base actionFs?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause2>32 bits should be enough for everyone
12:18<LordAzamath>so a and b can share bits?
12:19<+glx>they can yes
12:19<LordAzamath>but... that solves my problem, doesn't it? :O
12:20<+glx>you still need to duplicate 0A if you want 0A-different 0A
12:20<LordAzamath>yes, but then I have atleast half of the bits available
12:22<LordAzamath>wait.. it doesn't..hmm gotta think
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12:23<+glx>the hard part is to find a bit combination giving the best "random" result
12:24<LordAzamath>how many bits does the second sprite take?
12:24<LordAzamath>exactly 16
12:24<+glx>hmm in your 0A third part there are a many duplicates
12:24<+glx>are they really needed?
12:25<LordAzamath>I could remove them and add the probability into..
12:25<LordAzamath>I would use exactly 32 bits :P
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>wahh... generating map takes really forever...
12:28<+glx>using newindustries I guess ;)
12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>also generating towns took already forever
12:29<+glx>how many of them?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>1kx2k map, many towns
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>it said something around "xxx / 1500" in the status window
12:30<+glx>the more towns, the more time needed as a townname can be the same for many uint32
12:30<+glx>and duplicates are not allowed
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>it is now at industries "5061 / 5856"
12:30<LordAzamath>hmm.. now I have another problem... :(
12:30<LordAzamath>http://paste.openttd.org/642
12:31<LordAzamath>It now works but for example all towns which start with Kei will get the addition...
12:31<LordAzamath>same for kun
12:31<LordAzamath>and Kärd
12:32<LordAzamath>and Must, Mäe
12:32<LordAzamath>eg..
12:32<Eddi|zuHause2>and industries slows down towards the end...
12:32<LordAzamath>So it's not SO random...
12:33<+glx>nobody said it was random
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>why would a number series "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111" be not random?
12:33<+glx>the name parts are deterministic
12:33<LordAzamath>yeah.. thats the minus side of reusing the bits..
12:34<+glx>yes
12:34<+glx>you just need to find which bits are better to reuse
12:34<Eddi|zuHause2>gah... next time i won't do many industries...
12:35<+glx>LordAzamath: but if you can reduce the duplicates in third part, you may free 1 or 2 bits
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>it now takes like 10 seconds for each new industry
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>and there are still 700 to go
12:35<LordAzamath>But then the (high) probability of la endings won't be so high.. I can live with that :D
12:36<+glx>you can refine it later ;)
12:36<LordAzamath>?
12:37<+glx>first step is to have enough bits for every parts, then you can increase the third part to have a better distribution for endings
12:38<LordAzamath>well.. it seems I'll free atleast two bits from the third part :D
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i think i overdid it with the industries...
12:40<@peter1138>Mmm, garlic..
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>and some of the fishing grounds are called oil field
12:40<+glx>only the station
12:41<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but it's silly
12:41<LordAzamath>:O
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12:42<LordAzamath>After removing duplicates, I end up having 47 different definitions at 3rd part...
12:42<LordAzamath>which still makes 6 bits
12:42<LordAzamath>as it was before
12:42<LordAzamath>so it's not possible to gain from there.. But then, I think I can live with it..
12:43<+glx>there were only 8 duplicates?
12:43<LordAzamath>no..
12:43<LordAzamath>hmm.. wrong calculation
12:43<LordAzamath>I freed one bit
12:44<LordAzamath>total number is now 31
12:44<+glx>so 2 bits freed
12:44<+glx>as you have 2 third parts
12:44<LordAzamath>yes
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12:45<LordAzamath>so I have now bits FF and 0F free :D
12:45<+glx>maybe using the last bit of each part as first bit for the next part may work
12:46<LordAzamath>but... I am using it, am I not?
12:47<LordAzamath>16+4=1a and 1a is the next bit..
12:47<LordAzamath>I'm using..
12:47<+glx>currently you do 00-05, 06-09 and 0A-0F (in the pasted nfo)
12:47<LordAzamath>oh ok..a
12:47<LordAzamath>well renum complains
12:47<+glx>you can try 00-05, 05-08, 08-0D
12:48<@peter1138>Hmm...
12:48<@peter1138>Make it 64 bit ;)
12:48<LordAzamath>peter1138: I already suggested :D :D
12:48<+glx>renum may warn you, but you have the right to do it :)
12:49<+glx>making it 64 bit won't happen soon (as the actionF spec says it's 32 bit)
12:50<+glx>and Random() is a 32 bits value
12:50<@peter1138>Strange isn't it, that apparently 4.2 thousand million combinations isn't enough...
12:51<LordAzamath>strange indeed
12:52<LordAzamath>and peter1138, it is enough
12:52<LordAzamath>now
12:52<UnderBuilder>is there any products appart of antiviruses of trend micro?
12:53<UnderBuilder>I think hotmail uses it as antivirus
13:03<UnderBuilder>I read in gnu's page that I should boycott it but I don't know what things use products from trend micro
13:09<LordAzamath>*uck
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13:09<LordAzamath>Where do I have to change bit to the free one to get rid of that badbad thing?
13:10<globester>hm, the simcity2000 scene seems pretty dead
13:10<Sacro>OpenSK2K!
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>sk?
13:11<LordAzamath>SC2K* :P
13:12<globester>there's such a thing?
13:12<globester>:(
13:12<LordAzamath>lincity
13:12<UnderBuilder>how do I tell GIMP to select all the image that isn't color #000000 or #0000ff?
13:13<Gonozal_VIII>the button with the coloured squares
13:13<LordAzamath>shift-o is shortcut
13:14<LordAzamath>in the start you select all and then deselect with that tool
13:33<LordAzamath>heh.. I've got another idea... Half Life 2 style town names ^^
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13:33<LordAzamath>City 17; City 14; City 1; City 12 :P
13:40<@peter1138>Inspired...
13:42<NukeBuster>ls
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause2>UnderBuilder: why would you need that?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause2>the white parts are ignored by grfcodec, so they can be any colour you want
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13:56<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... with the paxdest, what is the critical mass for a tram system to get self-sustainable?
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>depends on the running costs and difficulty and all that stuff
13:56<Eddi|zuHause2>i connected two adjacent cities of 4k inhabitants each
13:57<Eddi|zuHause2>and then two lines within each city
13:57<Gonozal_VIII>that should work fine...
13:58<Eddi|zuHause2>at least tram systems finally make sense ;)
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14:53<ln->http://bp1.blogger.com/_CQ-1j2sdWlE/R8AOosuB87I/AAAAAAAAAas/Tm7JI7jD0AA/s1600-h/b2pack.jpg
14:55<@peter1138>Very stealth...
14:56<Gonozal_VIII>how should it be stealth in bright daylight? paint it skyblue?^^
14:57<@peter1138>Chameleon?
14:58<UnderBuilder>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=667800#p667800
14:58<Gonozal_VIII>that's not a b2 underbuilder
14:59<UnderBuilder>b2?
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14:59<Gonozal_VIII>pasting offtopic stuff like that is bad :P
14:59<UnderBuilder>not offtopic
15:00<UnderBuilder>they are void grf files
15:00<Gonozal_VIII>ooooh stealth grf, i see
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15:01<UnderBuilder>Soeb did one better
15:06<@peter1138>198KB for a blank GRF? :o
15:06<Gonozal_VIII>lots of blank :-)
15:08-!-Szundi [~chatzilla@78-131-65-143.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #openttd
15:09<Szundi>Hi!
15:09<Szundi>Please help me. I want to play with my friends over the Internet, and I need an option to set the game speed to 10 times SLOWER than the normal
15:09<Szundi>so we can play a game for a week
15:10<Szundi>and everyone can manage his/her company when he/she wants
15:10<@peter1138>Search tt-forums for the daylength patch
15:10<Szundi>for example 1-2-3 per day
15:10<Szundi>ah, thanks!
15:12<@peter1138>michi_cc, why does YAPP reserve paths through crashed trains?
15:14<Tefad>because it's fun that way
15:14<@peter1138>:o
15:14<Tefad>you know you love it when you have a 10 train pileup
15:15<@peter1138>Not. Really.
15:15<Tefad>mmm does the daylength patch slowdown train cleanups?
15:15<Tefad>that would suck
15:15<Tefad>it'd literally take hours of real time to fix that : x
15:16<@peter1138>Good start to a day :(
15:17<+michi_cc>peter1138: only if these trains didn't have a reservation
15:19<+michi_cc>peter1138: and changing that would mean lots of calls to VehicleFromPos which probably isn't very cpu-friendly
15:23<@peter1138>Well it's undesirable...
15:23<@peter1138>However, an alternative is for crashed trains to reserve their track.
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15:27*NukeBuster is away: Gone
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15:32<@peter1138>If you could implement that, that'd be grand...
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15:33<+michi_cc>peter1138: well, a train crash in a pbs block should (barring bugs of course) never happen on it's own, so it could be considered a kind of user error. And then it's the question of how idiot-proof the game should be again.
15:33<@peter1138>Yes
15:33<@peter1138>I made a mistake and crashed two trains.
15:33<@peter1138>Then along comes another one and it goes into them...
15:34<@peter1138>Your argument is flawed as generally trains will crash only if they didn't reserve a path. Therefore, you'll end up with a cascade of crashed trains...
15:34<@peter1138>And reserving the track of a crashed train shouldn't be too complex.
15:35<+michi_cc>but trains will only not have reserved a track by pressing force proceed or doing some track remodelling
15:35<@peter1138>Yes,
15:35<@peter1138>I have no objection to my first two trains crashing.
15:36<@peter1138>But from the users' point of the view the third train should've waited at a signal.
15:36<+michi_cc>implementing it is certainly not difficult, but might still not solve the problem: what to do when the trains crash *after* a third train already has reserved some conflicting track?
15:37<+michi_cc>so it's not possible the reserve all tiles occupied by the trains?
15:37<+michi_cc>s/the/to/
15:38<+michi_cc>would be no problem if the third crash is also considered acceptable
15:38<@peter1138>But in that case the third train will not have a signal to wait behind, it will already be moving. Personally I consider that acceptable.
15:41<+michi_cc>if that's acceptable, I will implement it
15:50-!-Axamentia [~SlayerRag@78-105-140-209.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:53<@peter1138>And, well, so much for trying to play without track highlighting on :)
15:53<@peter1138>It makes me forget that I'm using PBS, hehe...
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15:57<Tefad>so pbs is back in main?
16:00<Eddi|zuHause2><peter1138> However, an alternative is for crashed trains to reserve their track. <- what i always say, trains should at any time reserve the tracks they are on...
16:01<@peter1138>But that makes skip-signals way too safe ;)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause2>something uses awfully much CPU power... paxdest? industry animation?
16:05<@peter1138>Who knows? Nobody knows!
16:06<@peter1138>Not until someone feels like doing some profiling...
16:06<SmatZ>gprof knows
16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12232 /branches/noai/bin/ai/wrightai/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: various of fixes for wrightai (mostly finished all XXX / TODO) (yorick)
16:07<Vikthor>I would say let only crashed train reserve their track, maybe after few ticks(let say signalmen take some time to notice, and after that they are notified and won't send trains to crash site)
16:14<Wolf01>'night
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16:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12233 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_list.hpp ai_tilelist.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: document that AITileList and AIList start empty on creation (request by Progman)
16:27<Sacro>Vikthor: a signalmn would notice as his track circuits wouldn't clear
16:27<Sacro>either that or the headcode wouldn't advance
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16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12234 /trunk/os/macosx/plistgen.sh: -Fix [FS#1798]: Mac OSX bundle display name should be 'OpenTTD' (oVRoM)
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... one year over, max loan used up... now it's gonna show if my system is profitable
17:01<UnderBuilder>is there any servers with the 'no more roads' option?
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12235 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_abstractlist.cpp ai_abstractlist.hpp):
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: don't segfault if you do a Next() on an empty list (tnx Progman)
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: warn people if they forget Begin() before Next()/HasNext()
17:07<+glx>michi_cc: this executable thing is really needed?
17:09<+michi_cc>glx: MSVC is complaining everytime again. probably not when checking out with Tortoise, but via Cygwin or git it's not working otherwise
17:09<+glx>that's weird
17:09<+glx>but ok
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12236 /branches/noai/ (24 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Change: [API CHANGE] All valuators are now in the notation: AI<type>List_v<Valuator>. Example: AIVehicleList_vAge
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17:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12237 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.nut src/ai/ai_squirrel.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: don't force the existance of a 'constructor' (tnx Progman)
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17:14<@peter1138>nini
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17:14<Gonozal_VIII>ni!
17:14<Vikthor>ni!
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17:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12238 /trunk/projects/ (determineversion.vbs generate.vbs): -Change [FS#1800]: set svn:executable property for *.vbs (michi_cc)
17:20<+michi_cc>thanks glx
17:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12239 /trunk/src/rail_map.h: -Fix [FS#1800] (r9729): inverted comments for SetRailType() and GetTrackBits() (michi_cc)
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... bad... the vehicles make profit, but not enough to pay the interest...
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>then make them make more profit!^^
17:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12240 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12235: minor typo (glx)
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17:46<Sacro>hm
17:49<@orudge>oh look
17:49<@orudge>Sergej has found his way onto the OS/2 World forums talking about OpenTTD
17:49<@orudge>http://www.os2world.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,63/topic,336.0/
17:49<@orudge>although, admittedly
17:49<@orudge>that was in mid-2007
17:52<Sacro>orudge: No works on a photo to installation and imposing of pictures were made!!!
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17:56<+glx>orudge: and as always he provides links to ttd files and lies
17:56<@orudge>indeed
17:57*Sacro will have a leopard in 1h48!
17:58<mcbane>leopard (the tank)?
17:58<Sacro>i wish
17:58<Gonozal_VIII>http://www.rathergood.com/looking/
18:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12241 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (7 files): [NoAI] -Fix r12236: global search/replace to the unreadable documentation! WHOHO! (tnx Progman)
18:08<valhalla2w>Gonozal_VIII: omg :D
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>O_o
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have to call me god..
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>not all the time...
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18:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12242 /branches/noai/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AITileList_Industry(Accepting|Producing), giving tiles on which you want to build a station for an industry
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18:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12243 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.nut: [NoAI] -Fix r12242: move the regression-test for AITileList_Industry* to TileList(), and show that they really work by using the Valuators to proof that
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18:56<Tekky>hi, is it true that the YAPF cache is not stored in the savegame?
19:00<+glx>yes
19:00<Tekky>so in a multiplayer game, the clients could a different YAPF cache state?
19:00<Tekky>so in a multiplayer game, the clients could have a different YAPF cache state?
19:01<+glx>no because it is invalidated on connexion
19:01<Tekky>aha
19:02<Tekky>ah, wait, I think KUDr told me that he used to do that, but that was only a workaround for a bug and that the latest YAPF is not invalidated anymore on client connection.
19:02<Tekky>hehe, thx for refreshing my memory :)
19:02<Tekky>I now remember I had this discussion before with KUDr :)
19:03<+glx>IIRC with the bug, the cache was invalidated more often
19:04<+glx>and all caches are invalidated on connection
19:04<+glx>not only yapf
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>the initial bug was that KUDr assumed, the different cache states would not yield different result (desync)
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>the first workaround was to invalidate the cache on each tick
19:06<+glx>ie remove the cache ;)
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>until it was implemented that the invalidation happens on connection
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>no, not entirely, the cache was still used within the same tick
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19:11<Tekky>hmmmm, I think I need to have a talk to KUDr again about this issue, because I plan to make major changes to YAPF. Has KUDr been around lately?
19:11<+glx>@seen KUDr
19:11<@DorpsGek>glx: KUDr was last seen in #openttd 17 weeks, 4 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes, and 1 second ago: <KUDr> good
19:11<+glx>@seen KUDr*
19:11<@DorpsGek>glx: KUDr* could be KUDr (17 weeks, 4 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes, and 20 seconds ago), KUDr_wrk (28 weeks, 5 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, and 21 seconds ago), or KUDr_mac (31 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes, and 37 seconds ago)
19:12<Tekky>oh :( That's a long time :(
19:14<Tekky>thanks for the information, though.
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20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>why does the "full animation" setting not switch off industry animation?
20:27<Gonozal_VIII>because!
20:28<Gonozal_VIII>do default industries have animation?
20:28<Eddi|zuHause2>yes
20:28<Eddi|zuHause2>power plant sparks
20:28<Eddi|zuHause2>mine cables
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>ah right
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>but that's not palette based
20:30<Tefad>it should be palette animation.
20:30<Tefad>"full" is misleading
20:30<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: industry animation is part of industry state
20:30<Eddi|zuHause2>may there be any other way to switch that off?
20:30<+glx>it uses Random()
20:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't care about network ;)
20:32<+glx>if it's off for a player, it should be off for all, and some newindustries uses animation state to store things about their production
20:33<Eddi|zuHause2>is there a hack for this? i want to find out if industries are what is taking so much CPU power
20:34<+glx>there are callbacks for newindustries
20:35<+glx>and if the code in the callback is complex, it may need more cpu
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20:36<+glx>what's the last thing you read?
20:36<Eddi|zuHause3>the logs page ;)
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20:37<DaleStan>When I made a cursory attempt at profiling TTDPatch (Yes, I know. The other program) ages ago, TTD code consumed the vast majority of the processor time; I doubt there is that much work involved in the newindustries callbacks.\
20:38<Eddi|zuHause3>but did you test it with 3000 industries on the map?
20:39<+glx>anyway drawing takes more CPU than anything else
20:39<SmatZ>map full of industries :)
20:39<SmatZ>drawing electrified railway is very CPU intensive...
20:39<SmatZ>just to mention :)
20:40<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem is, i have a virtually empty map (player wise), and want to find out why i still have 100% CPU
20:40<+glx>bridges too, as for each middle part you need to get the bridge end
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20:42<+glx>Eddi|zuHause3: using 8bpp blitter?
20:42<Eddi|zuHause3>i suppose... using Gonozal_VIII's patch pack... and i want to narrow this down
20:43<+glx>try clean trunk first :)
20:43<+glx>as patches may have performance issues
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>there are some with high cpu drain capabilities... but they shouldn't do so on an empty map
20:49<Eddi|zuHause3>well, my primary suspects are paxdest and industries
20:49<Gonozal_VIII>paxdest without stations shouldn't do anything...
20:50<+glx>are you sure?
20:50<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't read every line... but i think so
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>well, there are several fishing ground stations on the map
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>and especially they are not connected
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>which is always the worst case for a pathfinder
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm right... those are stations too
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20:54<+glx>the same can happen for oilrigs (if you have some of them)
20:54<Gonozal_VIII>map generator doesn't generate them with the ecs vectors
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21:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12244 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix (r12150): typo resulting in no players are given the engine preview offer
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21:26<Eddi|zuHause3>glx: i just tried a clean trunk game with the same settings for map generation (1kx2k, lots of towns (~1500), few industries (~2500)), and it is also using almost 100% CPU
21:26<Eddi|zuHause3>ECS grfs
21:26<Eddi|zuHause3>(all of them)
21:58<@Belugas>pffff.... and people want even bigger maps :P
22:02<@Belugas>grrrrr... "if (something = this)" is really not the same as "if (something == that)"
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 25 00:00:29 2008