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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-02-29

---Logopened Fri Feb 29 00:00:21 2008
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03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12316 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Support loading full range of 0xD0xx NewGRF strings which
03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: includes 0xD000 to 0xD3FF (yes, 0xD0xx makes a lot of sense, really...)
03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: and handle 0xD400 to 0xD7FF strings which map to 0xD000 to 0xD3FF
03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: (obviously).
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03:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12317 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix [FS#1815]: Map string IDs that are embedded from other strings.
03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12318 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AICompany::(Build|Get)CompanyHQ (college of Morloth)
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04:53<Morloth>morning
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06:03<mulrich|laptop>I can't build anything in the game! ;_;
06:03<mulrich|laptop>Well, except for road buildings
06:04<bumblebee>:S
06:04<mulrich|laptop>I can't build rails, trucks, trains, etc
06:06<mulrich|laptop>Anything?
06:07<bumblebee>well if u havent paused the game I dont know
06:08<@peter1138>Usually that’s caused by starting the game before any vehicles are available.
06:08<mulrich|laptop>When are the vehicles available?
06:08<mulrich|laptop>It makes no sense that railroads aren't available in 1925
06:09<mulrich|laptop>Since the first stretch of railroad was opened a hundred years before that
06:11<Phantasm>1950 is a good option to start.
06:11<Phantasm>There are some train available before that as well, but not at 1925.
06:13<Gekz>its time someone made a realism mod
06:13<Gekz>with realistic car accidents
06:13<Phantasm>Sub-arctic and tropical have first train at 1945 (some time during that year), temperate has first one at 1925 and toyland has first at 1946.
06:13<Gekz>and pedestrians with bombs
06:13<Phantasm>Gekz: For realilism mod, breakdowns would go down like hell.
06:13<Vikthor>mulrich|laptop: You can use newgrf files(add-on sets), they add vehicles which are available before that
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06:15<Vikthor>eg. DBSet and CSDset are usable from 1920's, Serbian set AFAIK from second half of 19th century
06:15<mulrich|laptop>I can't install TTDPatch either
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06:15<Vikthor>and there are others USset, Japanese, French...
06:15<mulrich|laptop>Unless I don't need that for that newgrf thing
06:16<Vikthor>You can use NewGRF with OpenTTD you dont nedd TTDPatch
06:16<Vikthor>*need
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06:16<mulrich|laptop>Where do I put it?
06:17<Vikthor>in the data subdirectory, then you have to add it to game using NewGRF settings option in Main menu
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06:18<Vikthor>but mind that you can use usually only one set at the time for each transport type
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06:55<Roujin>g'day
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07:22<Zero_Dogg>are there any stores selling TTD still that is known, or do I need to ebay for it?
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07:42<ln->Zero_Dogg: i bought one through amazon.co.uk not so long ago.
07:42<Zero_Dogg>great
07:45<Ammler>Hello, is it possible to "force" ottd only to look in data folder where openttd.cfg is stored? (ignoring mydocs)
07:46<Roujin>copy the config file into the main folder (e.g. ...\OpenTTD)
07:46<Roujin>(not the data folder)
07:47<Roujin>then it should read and write from/to that one, and also put saves into \OpenTTD\save instead of mydocs\save
07:47<Ammler>and it doesn't load GRFs from it?
07:48<Roujin>from the mydocs folder? hmm good question
07:48<Ammler>I like to make a clean "test environment"...
07:48<Roujin>does it read GRFs from mydocs at all?
07:48<Ammler>of course
07:49<Ammler>you should use that that way
07:49<Ammler>if you have different revisions
07:49<Ammler>so you need i.e. the original grfs only once
07:49<Roujin>i didn't know that - I always put grfs in the install folder (\data\newgrf)
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07:49<Roujin>lemme check
07:51<Roujin>nope, seems to check for newgrfs in the mydocs folder anyways
07:52<@peter1138>Just move them out of there temporarily, or set appropriate options for configure to not use it.
07:52<Roujin><Roujin> then it should read and write from/to that one, and also put saves into \OpenTTD\save instead of mydocs\save <--- that was bs. you can save where you want of course
07:52<Roujin>I meant screenshots.
07:52<Ammler>peter1138: of course, I'll do that now, but I was wondering, if there is an easier way.. :-)
07:52<Roujin>with the config file in your openttd folder, it will place screenshots there as well
07:53<Ammler>Roujin: it takes location from openttd.cfg
07:54<Ammler>thats really cool
07:57<Roujin>thanks for the hint with newgrfs in mydocs, that's something I didn't know ;)
07:59<Ammler>there is also a "global" share place
07:59<Ammler>if you share the pc with other users
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08:00<@peter1138>Global is where the original data should go.
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08:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12319 /trunk/src/transparency_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: Comment fixes (Roujin)
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09:17<Roujin>peter: what about the fix in transparency.h? is it not alright?
09:17<@peter1138>I got busy doing other stuff.
09:18<Roujin>i see
09:18<@peter1138>Well I am in the office doing work.
09:19<@Belugas>so am i
09:19<@Belugas>waht a conincidence :S
09:19<@Belugas>coincidence
09:19<@Belugas>what
09:19<@Belugas>baa....
09:19<@peter1138>:o
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09:20<Sacro>i am in the uni doing insertion srot
09:20<Sacro>and playing Pokémon Yellow
09:20<Roujin>was just wondering if there was something wrong with it, so nvm ;)
09:22<Roujin>hmm.. I wonder if I should split off the random road construction from my traffic light patch and release it as a single patch
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09:29<Roujin>nice work Ammler http://www.openttdcoop.org/blog/2008/02/29/openttdcoop-newgrf-package-7-beta1/
09:30<Ammler>thank you, I hope, we can update it now faster
09:31<Sacro>ooo
09:31<Sacro>now grfpack
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10:00<@peter1138>- _transparency_opt |= ~_transparency_lock;
10:00<@peter1138>+ _transparency_opt |= GB(~_transparency_lock, 0, TO_END);
10:00<@peter1138>Just that should do it, right?
10:00<@peter1138>If I understand the problem correctly.
10:01<@peter1138>Ammler, that teaser image looks nice :)
10:01<@peter1138>Not too keen on the perfectly straight river edges though.
10:02<@Belugas># Riders On The Storm
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10:02<@peter1138>Doo, do do doo, do do doo, do do doooo
10:02<@Belugas>and on the Bass, Mr Nelson!
10:03<Ammler>peter1138: thats made by Osai
10:04<Roujin>mmmh that should do it, but I thought some more limiting to the valid bits only wouldn't hurt if for some reason there are strange values saved in the config
10:05<Roujin>e.g. one enters strange values in the config; or a transparency option is removed in trunk, one updates to newest revision and starts then..
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10:08<Roujin>I'd at least change the if clause to check only the valid bits
10:09<SmatZ>invalid data won't be loaded from config file
10:09<Roujin>so that if strange bits are set for some reason (that are not visible in any way for the user) the transparency toggle will not act in a strange way
10:09<SmatZ>if it is invalid, it is set to 0x1ff
10:09<Roujin>well it's valid
10:09<Roujin>it's a valid value
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10:10<Roujin>i mean valid as in bits 0..number of transparency settings
10:10<Roujin>ok wait a second, you're right
10:12<@peter1138>I wanted to change as little as possible ;)
10:13<Roujin>ok, argh, seems I didn't understand the actual problem up until now ><
10:14<Roujin>then what you wrote should pretty much do it...
10:15<Roujin>i'd still suggest to switch around the if-else because it's a kind of arkward double negation
10:15<@peter1138>Then I wouldn’t be changing as little as possible.
10:16<Roujin>if (xxx == 0) then {foo;} else {bar;} ---> if (xxx) then {bar;} else {foo;}
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10:17<Roujin>If you want to change as little as possible, you shouldn't have included my comment fix that changed, in fact, nothing in the code. ;)
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10:17<@peter1138>That’s why that was separate.
10:18<Roujin>okay, you win
10:18<@peter1138>But we don’t tree values as boolean, so we’d need to do if (xxx != 0) then {foo;} else {bar;}
10:18<@peter1138>*treat
10:19<Roujin>you don't? oO I'm pretty sure i've seen that a dozen times in the code... in fact i only learned that that was possible from the openttd code iirc...
10:19<Roujin>is that regarded as bad coding style?
10:20*Roujin goes reread coding style
10:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12320 /trunk/src/transparency.h: -Fix [FS#1817]: Wrong transparency options could be saved after toggling all.
10:22<@peter1138>That function is pretty horrible though.
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12:15<ln->new concept: "Cardassian sauna"
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12:27<Draakon>hello
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12:43<LordAzamath>yorick!
12:47<Eddi|zuHause3>ln-: is that a railtype? ;)
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 29 12:47:58 2008
---Logopened Fri Feb 29 12:51:17 2008
12:51-!-mikegrb [~michael@mail.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd
12:51-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 48 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 47 normal]
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>everyone got baned
12:51-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd
12:51<glx>silly it was not my IP
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>and my 'n' key is broken
12:51-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has joined #openttd
12:51-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
12:51<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't get banned :P
12:51<Ammler>yeah, and services seems still to be down
12:51<yorick>there was a small bug
12:52-!-NukeBuster [~wouter@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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12:52<yorick>and services is doen
12:52-!-Greysc[a]le [bnc@81.171.136.146] has joined #openttd
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12:52<yorick>down*
12:52<mcbane>grr
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>"small" ;)
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12:52<mcbane>someone played wioth the banstick aye?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>Gonozal_VIII: yes you were, i have proof ;)
12:52<mcbane>*with
12:52-!-CC_Coughertons [~bornacorn@78.32.103.125] has quit []
12:52<Ammler>I hope, topics will be come back
12:52<yorick>probably
12:53-!-neli [micha@h8441250184.dsl.speedlinq.nl] has joined #openttd
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12:53-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta4 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 is mandatory
12:53<yorick>chanserv seems to be back
12:53-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@062249182162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #openttd
12:53-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 118 secs
12:53<mcbane>sorry gly was the wrong window..
12:53<mcbane>*glx
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12:53<Gonozal_VIII>what a mess
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i was saying:
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>ln: is that a railtype?
12:54<yorick>everyone got banned, what do you expect?
12:54<ln>Eddi|zuHause: negative
12:59-!-LordAzamath [~LordAzama@ip234.cab21.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>ln: then what kind of relevance does that have?
13:02-!-peter1138 [~petern@217.151.109.242] has joined #openttd
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13:03<ln>i refuse to answer such an obvious question.
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13:09<@peter1138>!logs
13:09<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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13:15<Wolf01>hello
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13:31<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: you lack big time :P
13:31<@Bjarni>or might even be broken
13:32<Gonozal_VIII>bjarni!
13:33-!-Brianetta [~brian@77-103-231-158.cable.ubr05.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:33<Gonozal_VIII>channel wasn't active...
13:34<LordAzamath>bjarni?
13:34<LordAzamath>:D
13:34<yorick>Bjarni!
13:36*LordAzamath has an evil idea ^o^
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13:46<guruthree>why the hell has scandinavia been banned?
13:46<Zr40>everyone got banned
13:46<LordAzamath>guruthree: Not anymore
13:46<LordAzamath>yes
13:46-!-guru3 [~guru3@81-235-164-45-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
13:46<guruthree>well that was rather stupid
13:46<LordAzamath>yes
13:47<guruthree>(whoever banned everyone)
13:47<LordAzamath>a bug
13:47<guruthree>and then couldn't fix it for 20 minutes :<
13:47<Zr40>I mailed them
13:47<guruthree>(which was how long it took me to notice)
13:47<Zr40>apparently, *@ip-address got parsed as *@*
13:47<LordAzamath>guruthree: Everyone in the whole oftc
13:47<guruthree>silly
13:47<guru3>very silly
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13:59<valhallasw>what the...
13:59<valhallasw>stupid ircop?
13:59<Zr40>operator^Hservices error, everyone got banned
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14:03<Phantasm>Ugh...
14:03<Zr40>should even be ^W, not ^H.
14:03<Zr40>Phantasm: yes, everyone got banned.
14:03<Phantasm>I saw that.
14:03<Phantasm>And I'm wondering who idiot did that.
14:03<Zr40>according to the mail I got from them: services misparsing an incorrect command
14:04<@Belugas>don't look at me, same thing happened 2me2
14:04-!-bumblebee [~nnscript@ti0117a340-0253.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05<valhallasw>s/services misparsing/user issuing/
14:05<Zr40>the command was 'slightly' incorrect in the first place
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14:06<Zr40>but according to the mail, services banned everyone instead of refusing the command
14:10<@Belugas>that's a power I would love to have :D
14:10<@Belugas>ban the whole network!
14:11<Phantasm>Typically such shouldn't happen even with wrong commands...other than using thing like /os raw..
14:13<Tefad>hehe
14:13<Tefad>i had good fun with operserv raw back in the day
14:14<Tefad>svsnick was pretty fun
14:14<Phantasm>Been there done that.
14:14<Tefad>before sanick (or whatever)
14:14<Tefad>i don't quite understand the difference in svs vs sa command prefixes
14:14<Phantasm>Sajoin & sapart flood was also nice in getting mirc to crash.
14:14<Tefad>mmm
14:15<Phantasm>Sa isn't done through services, svs is.
14:15<Tefad>yeah but why not have opers use svs then
14:15<Tefad>why are there sa and svs.
14:15<Phantasm>They require different access to be used.
14:15<Tefad>anyone heard of ACLs?
14:15*Tefad shrugs
14:15<Phantasm>For some commands there are overlaps sure, but generally not.
14:16<Tefad>join part nick overlap
14:16<Tefad>wasn't there even a quit one (which is basically a kill)
14:16<Tefad>oh n/m
14:16<Tefad>there was kill for opers that put "Kill:" in the message
14:16<Tefad>then the services kill was literal string
14:17*Tefad been using IRC for.. holy crap 13 years.
14:18<Tefad>good old quarterdeck global chat
14:19<Tefad>random news post mentioning said software: http://www.allbusiness.com/services/business-services-miscellaneous-business/4679579-1.html
14:20<Tefad>oh, i guess that's the end of global chat as an IRC client
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14:41<Phantasm>Tefad: Yes and those overlap for obvious reasons. They can be used at significantly lower access.
14:42-!-Anatolis [~Anatolis@195.241.10.185] has joined #openttd
14:42<Phantasm>The sa versions. While svs versions exist as the ircd might not have sa versions.
14:43<Anatolis>hello
14:43<Tefad>i also think irc needs to revolutionize its authentication system
14:43<Anatolis>does anyone know where I can find info on a patch were a train will leave the station if it's full?
14:43<Tefad>but that's not on topic for this channel : D
14:44<Anatolis>It was in the MiniN, but it's difficult to find a topic about it on the forum
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15:00<Yorick>meet my new bot, questionmark
15:00<questionmark>Hello.. My name is ?. I have a channel. Want to join? Then type #?
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15:02<hylje>what was that
15:02<Yorick>?leave
15:03<Yorick>?part
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15:04<@peter1138>Heh
15:08<Patrick`>#?
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15:22<LordAzamath>gnight
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15:23<questionmark>gnight LA
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16:51<dih>Bjarni :-)
16:51<@Bjarni>where?
16:51<Gonozal_VIII>who?
16:51<dih>dont know
16:51<@Bjarni>then stop talking garbage
16:51<dih>somewhere
16:52<dih>i know he is somewhere
16:52<dih>now
16:52<@Bjarni>you need to do some research before presenting the results
16:52<ln->i thought it was captain planet, but yeah, it looks more like a Bjarni.
16:52<dih>if i were (a) Bjarni - where would i hide
16:52<dih>how are you sir?
16:53<@Bjarni><dih> if i were (a) Bjarni - where would i hide <-- the best hiding place is.....
16:53<@Bjarni>offline
16:53<dih>no - that would not be your best hiding place
16:54<dih>because then you would quickly find that you miss the "Bjanri!"
16:54<dih>and i am not sure would would annoy you most
16:54<dih>people saying it- or realizing that you actually would miss it :-P
16:55<@Bjarni>lol
16:55<@Bjarni>I wouldn't miss it
16:55<@Bjarni>people do it all the time
16:55<Gonozal_VIII>you would!
16:55<dih>^^
16:55<dih>did you get my email Bjarni?
16:56<Sacro>Bjarni:!
16:56-!-Osai [~Osai@pD9EB4EEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:56<dih>and here we have someone who cannot read what it sais in the quotes
16:56<dih>got a colon too many there Sacro :-P
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16:57<@Bjarni>dih: that's because Sacro is looking for colons everywhere
16:58<dih>he is probably looking for more than just colons everywhere ^^
16:58<@Bjarni><dih> did you get my email Bjarni? <-- the newest one is like two weeks old
16:59<dih>yes
16:59<dih>that sounds about right
17:00<dih>should be complete :-)
17:00-!-Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl10-220-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye]
17:00<dih>btw ladies, i had a great thought :-D
17:00*Bjarni runs away
17:00<dih>a ottd spectating server :-P
17:00<dih>i.e. a game that joins a server as spectator, does all the drawing etc
17:00<dih>and at the same time allows 11 other spectators to join :-D
17:01<dih>of course no 'pause on join' allowed here
17:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12321 /trunk/readme.txt: -Change: update readme about where openttd looks for files (based on dih work)
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17:03<dih>uh - nice
17:04-!-De_Ghost [~s@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:08<dih>leaving my lovely idea without any comments :-(
17:10<Vikthor>dih: Show us the code and we can talk :D
17:10<dih>LOL
17:11<dih>i am working on something else when i have the time
17:11<Vikthor>Yeah, I know that was just joke
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>why are spectators even limited?
17:12<Phantasm>Bjarni: Any idea when this will be possible as a route: 1) Buy a train to depot a 2) travel to station b and full load 3) travel to station c and unload 4) travel to depot d and sell <goto 1 as in it will buy a new one to different depot to replace the sold one and set it running> ?
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>that idea sucks phantasm :P
17:13<dih>when you have a decent script language that would be able to controll such actions
17:13<Phantasm>IT won't suck, Gonozal_VIII.
17:13<Phantasm>s/IT/It/
17:13<Patrick`>it saves on money for buying a return track, right?
17:13<Patrick`>dumbass.
17:13<Patrick`>learn to signal
17:14<Phantasm>Patrick`: You get higher rating to station as the trains are always all new and that will give you more materials to transport.
17:14<@Bjarni>Phantasm: currently not possible
17:14<Phantasm>You'll also have less breakdowns which will significantly matter on overused tracks.
17:14<Vikthor>Phantasm: It's basically cheating, teleporting trains from depot to depot
17:14<@Bjarni>and don't hold your breath
17:14<@Bjarni>.... or maybe you should :P
17:14<Phantasm>Vikthor: No teleport, it is sell and buy. :)
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>but the fact that somebody suggests that shows that the resell value decreases way too slow
17:15<dih>lol Bjarni
17:15<dih>that's mean ^^
17:15<Patrick`>... or waypoint in a depot and autoreplace
17:15<@Bjarni>it would give me time to look at serious issues
17:15<Phantasm>Vikthor: I'm paying for the new train and selling the old one to 'whoever wants it' and therefore it is no teleporting of train as it is other train.
17:15<dih>i thought my ottd spectating server was more interesting ^^
17:16<Phantasm>Gonozal_VIII: Well, it is in reality profitable on a long route.
17:16<Phantasm>It will also increase the secondary factory goods amount as you have more goods from primary factory hauled.
17:16<Gonozal_VIII>is not... you get much less money back for a used vehicle
17:16<Phantasm>Gonozal_VIII: Not that much less. I have calculated it.
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>i know, that's why i wrote it's wrong
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>the value should be reduced much faster
17:17<dih>the code for such a spectating server already exists... just needs a little rearranging ^^
17:17<Vikthor>Phantasm: Sometimes more realism isn't that bad
17:17<Phantasm>The extra goods you get for the higher rating is worth more than the cost of selling the train (also you won't have running costs for returning part).
17:17<Phantasm>Vikthor: It is actually totally realistic.
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>i know that it makes more profit but it shouldn't
17:18<dih>trains should not be sellable ^^
17:18<Phantasm>dih: Of course trains should be sellable.
17:18<dih>buy a train - keep it until it crashes ^^
17:18<Phantasm>Are you saying you can't sell a train in real life?
17:18<Vikthor>What using loco for one route and than selling it is realistic?
17:18<Vikthor>*then
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>it's not realistic, ever seen a used car for almost the same price as a new one?
17:19<dih>Gonozal: even more pricy
17:19<dih>check the cars from the 20's ^^
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>i'm not talking about oldtimers
17:19<dih>pft
17:19<Phantasm>Vikthor: RL example: 1) Buy a hell of a lot of trains to be transported to your depot a like one a day 2) make them transport goods 3) sell them at depot b at the price someone is willing to pay.
17:19<dih>nothing is ever good enough for you, is it?
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17:20<Vikthor>someone is willing to pay. -- that is exactly the problem
17:20<@Bjarni>Phantasm: how is that related to real life?
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>how's that a rl example?
17:20<Phantasm>Bjarni: That could be done in real life.
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>show me
17:20<Phantasm>Vikthor: At suitable price someone is willing to pay.
17:20<dih>Phantasm
17:20<dih>s/m/y/
17:20<@Bjarni>Phantasm: tell me where this takes place in real life
17:21<@Bjarni>at a regular schedule
17:21<dih>takes place != possible
17:21<Patrick`>oh good, my favourite argument
17:21<Phantasm>Bjarni: It COULD be done. No idea if someone is doing it or not, but it is possible.
17:21<@Bjarni>hehe
17:21<dih>^^
17:21<dih>hit him
17:21<Patrick`>someone who wants to exploit a bug in the game justifies it by pointing out all the other ways it's not realistic.
17:21<Phantasm>It is not my problem if some (idiot) pays me too much for the used train. ;P
17:21<@Bjarni>you have NO idea how trains are traded in real life then
17:22<Phantasm>Bjarni: You could do it.
17:22<Phantasm>Bjarni: If you have enough money to go around and want to do it so, you could do it.
17:22<@Bjarni>at a great loss
17:22<dih>yes - Bjarni probably could
17:22<dih>but _you_ could not
17:22<Phantasm>So? You could do it.
17:22<Vikthor>not even Bjarni, he does not have the money I expect
17:22<@Bjarni><dih> yes - Bjarni probably could <-- you really have high confidence in my railroad and trading skills
17:22<@Bjarni>are you spying on me?
17:23<Phantasm>;P
17:23<dih>no - i dont have confidence in that
17:23<dih>i only have confidence in you managing (some sneaky way i dont want to know how) to archieve such things ^^
17:23<Phantasm>Bjarni: It is realistic to be able to be done. And in fact, I think on some cases it might be profitable even at scrap metal cost for the engine and wagons on selling.
17:24<Vikthor>It was just guess, I dont know much engineers that could buy train they are driving
17:24<Phantasm>One could argue that it being possible makes the cargo payments unrealistic.
17:24<Patrick`>the resell value should include a "distance from purchased depot" degrasion
17:24<Phantasm>Patrick`: No it shouldn't.
17:24<@Bjarni>actually I have been involved in buying a locomotive in real life
17:24<Patrick`>since it's unfair to penalise people who buy a train then sell it without ever sending it on its way
17:24<Phantasm>The reasell value should be as realistic as possible.
17:24<dih>if you want more realism
17:24<@Bjarni>price: another locomotive and two cars
17:24<Vikthor>Bjarni: But only as part of your company
17:24<dih>create a buffer of waggons
17:24<@Bjarni>none of it operational :P
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17:24<Patrick`>the resell value shouldn't penalise when you accidentally buy one too many
17:25<dih>and a auto-refitting trains with different waggons
17:25<Phantasm>Patrick`: It is your loss for buying too many.
17:25<Phantasm>If you buy one train too many in real life, you will lose money.
17:25<@Bjarni>interesting enough trains do not suffer the same quick value drop as cars do
17:26<Vikthor>Phantasm: Well but in RL its not enough to click one time too many to buy more waggons
17:26<@Bjarni>but you would still lose a lot on buying and then selling right away
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17:29<Phantasm>If you transport goods 4 000 squares (from corner to the opposite cornet on 2048x2048 map) with maglev.. Say wood to paper mill.. Then do the same route back for paper to printing works, again for goods to town near the corner.. That is 4000 squares of wood+paper+goods transported in relatively fast time so you still get good price. If you add the 13% boost to rating on the first station, you'll get 13% more money from all 3 of those effectively. And you ...
17:29<Phantasm>... could also make it such that you use same train with different wagons for whole run and then buy a new one. That would be one engine + 3 sets of wagons.. The route will net you more at the 13% increase in goods than the total buying cost of the engine + 3 sets of wagons.
17:29<dih>you talk to much
17:29<Phantasm>No I don't.
17:29<dih>yes you do
17:30<dih>you think i am gonna read a 10 line chat message?
17:30<Phantasm>You repeat yourself.
17:30<ln->http://www.eurocoins.co.uk/images/2002denmark1euroobv240.jpg
17:30-!-Gonozal_VIII [~Gonozal_V@N879P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd
17:30<Phantasm>Yes.
17:30<dih>it's drivel
17:30<@Bjarni>ln-: PHOTOSHOP!
17:30<@Bjarni>hmm
17:30<@Bjarni>no
17:30<@Bjarni>or
17:30<@Bjarni>hard to tell
17:31<@Bjarni>it claims it to be a test coin
17:31<Phantasm>Bjarni: So, any idea when will it become possible to make even such arbitary orders?
17:31<@Bjarni>ROFL
17:33<dih>ROFL stands for Roll Over F***ing Lamer?
17:34<dih>"and the little one said 'roll over'..."
17:35<dih>i was expecting less of a conversation killer with thtat line ^^
17:36<Phantasm>;P
17:36<dih>oh - and good you did not take it personally ^^
17:38<dih>Bjarni: if that coin had been photoshoped they would have dont a better job of it :-P
17:38<@Bjarni>well
17:39<@Bjarni>it's a known fact that it's not a valid coin
17:39<ln->yet
17:39<@Bjarni>now the politicians wants to have an election about it.... again
17:39<Gonozal_VIII>what are you talking about a coin?
17:39<@Bjarni>and it looks like it will be a no.... again
17:40<@Bjarni><ln-> http://www.eurocoins.co.uk/images/2002denmark1euroobv240.jpg
17:40<dih>perhaps next year Bjarni ^^
17:40-!-dragonhorseboy [~dragonhor@modemcable147.26-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
17:40<dragonhorseboy>hey
17:41<@Bjarni>dih: actually it looks like recent events has resulted in a more EU hostile opinion in the population
17:41<@Bjarni>and it's not something that will just switch back
17:42<@Bjarni>this is based on lying politicians (yes we know that they will lie but it's still bad when everybody can see when they do)
17:42<dih>yep
17:42<dih>in the oxford there once was a 'say no to eu' stand
17:42*ln- wants a 2€ bank note!
17:42<dih>they wanted to hand me a flyer
17:42<dih>and looked somewhat puzzeld when i said - no thanks - i am german ^^
17:44<dih>that is sooo funny: http://openttdcoop.myminicity.com/
17:44<Phantasm>Bjarni: Here in Finland it seems they don't only lie, but also deal with stuff they have no idea about and make idiotic comments like they know exactlywhat they are doing.
17:44-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C532.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:45<dih>uh
17:45<dih>i have seen some similar behaviour
17:45<dih>let me guess
17:45<dih> i think it was in the us
17:45<dih>hmmm.....
17:45<dih>something rings a bell
17:45<dih>was it... yes
17:45<dih>army in some foreight country
17:45<dih>cannot remember what it was all about
17:46<@Bjarni>speaking of army in a foreign country
17:47<@Bjarni>at one time a Dane was working in USA and all of a sudden the conscription office declared that he should be a recruit because they needed soldiers for some war
17:47<@Bjarni>and they didn't care about his complain about not being a US citizen
17:48<dih>lol
17:48<dih>i know a guy - an american
17:48<dih>who lived in the us
17:48<dih>but had dual nationality
17:48<dih>he was also german
17:49<dih>and all of a sudden got his german military service invitation
17:49<dih>^^
17:49<ln->sounds normal
17:50*Bjarni wonders if US army would draft people from Afghanistan to fight Taliban
17:50<dih>lol
17:52<Phantasm>Of course they would.
17:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12322 /trunk/src/group.h: -Fix (r9874): endian issue when saving/loading group owner
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17:57<@Bjarni>SHAME ON YOU!!!
17:57<Patrick`>oh bother
17:57<@Bjarni>why did it take that long before anybody noticed this issue we just fixed?
18:00<Phantasm>Bjarni: Any chance for the power of the dual head engines to be fixed? They appear to be half of what they should be in all cases.
18:01<Phantasm>Of course the power rating vary a lot etc, but comparing all the trains, you get enough statistics to prove the problem.
18:02<Phantasm>As in dual head train should have twice the power of equivalent single head train.
18:02<@Bjarni>no
18:02<@Bjarni>because you buy a set with a combined power of whatever it says
18:02<Phantasm>Yes, but the set powers are too low when comparing it.
18:10<dih>tough
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18:20<Sacro>rule 34 on Bjarni
18:21<SpComb>good call
18:21<Phantasm>Bjarni: http://hack.fi/~ghost/trains.txt
18:21<guru3>it needs more desu, desu?
18:21<SpComb>desu desu. I don't know what it means, but desu destu
18:22<Phantasm>Bjarni: There is a list of all trains on temperate, sub-arctic and tropical divided into sections based on type. Steam trains aren't included as they have no dual head engines.
18:22<guru3>that's the only rule 34 that i know
18:22<guru3>at least
18:22<guru3>i think it was 34
18:22-!-helb [~helb@62.240.176.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:23<SpComb>no, that must be a different rule
18:23<SpComb>rule 34 is well-defined
18:23<guru3>what is it?
18:23-!-helb [~helb@62.240.176.23] has joined #openttd
18:23<SpComb>google knows
18:23-!-Zothar [~Zothar@ppp-70-242-202-109.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]]
18:23<@SmatZ>there is porn of it!
18:23<SpComb>as does SmatZ
18:23<guru3>Oo
18:24<dih><-- bed
18:24<dih>night
18:24<guru3>ah
18:25<Phantasm>Bjarni: If you look into the list, you'll see that with very few exceptions the list follows so that newer trains in same section have some more speed and HP. But, as dual head trains, they should be equal to two similar single head engines and as such the power rating should be twice of that. But as you can see, they all have half the power with exception of temperate diesel 6 dual, which might just be one of those few engines that are just more powerful ...
18:25<Phantasm>... than engines commonly.
18:25<Phantasm>SmatZ: You look into the list as well, http://hack.fi/~ghost/trains.txt
18:25<dih>you talk too much ^^
18:25<Phantasm>dih: You repeat yourself a lot.
18:25<dih>all my repeats summed up, dont fill one of your over length lines
18:26<Phantasm>Hah.
18:26<dih>^^
18:26<dih>gotcha speechless even with that ^^
18:26<Phantasm>dih: Was doing something else.
18:26<Phantasm>dih: Would it be better if I divided my 'over length lines' into 10 lines?
18:27<dih>uh - look at me - i can write excessivly long lines with abosolutely no sense in them - and if anybody should actually care to read what i write, they might just be a little confussled
18:27<@SmatZ>Phantasm: interesting, yes
18:28<Patrick`> new fun game:
18:28<dih>Phantasm: i am just pulling your leg
18:28<dih>for the sake of pulling someones leg ^^
18:28<Patrick`>fully consume every industry on a 64x64 map with dense industry settings
18:28<Patrick`>by spending as little as possible
18:28<dih>night
18:28-!-dih [~dihedral@dslb-088-066-141-068.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:30<@Bjarni>Phantasm: I think it's intended to work as it works now
18:30<@Bjarni>there is a standard on how vehicles should work (newGRF stuff) and AFAIK we just follow those guidelines
18:31<Phantasm>So, dual head engine just uses twice the space for equivalent output as the engine would have if it were single head?
18:31<+glx>and check the train properties once it is built
18:31<Phantasm>glx: The displayed power is of the set, I have confirmed that.
18:31<@Bjarni>you forget to mention that the first two diesels in temperate are DMUs with passenger capacity. Unlike real locomotives they have the diesel engines under the floor making them way smaller
18:32<Phantasm>Bjarni: Ok, I didn't take that into account. But look into all electric, monorail and maglevs?
18:32<Phantasm>Bjarni: And those diesel trains that don't have cargo.
18:33<@Bjarni>the twin turbo diesel (diesel 7 in tropical) is built for speed, not power. The numbers look real on that one
18:34<Phantasm>How about the monorail one?
18:34<@Bjarni>diesel 6 is Cennential, the biggest single frame locomotive in the world. If you look at it, it's two locomotives on one frame, giving it two real sized diesel engines
18:35<@Bjarni>so it should have twice the power of any other diesel engine of the same period
18:36<@Bjarni> <Phantasm> How about the monorail one? <-- now you are starting questions about the engine design. You just accepted that the numbers are real for diesel and either the game handles this correctly or it don't
18:37<Phantasm>The figures are hand put in game (original TT, and passed on from that on).
18:37<@Bjarni>I don't get the monorail engines but that's the way they are designed for some reason
18:37<Phantasm>They are what they are put and it isn't about how game handles them.
18:37<Phantasm>So if diesel engines are fine, it won't say other engines are fine by default.
18:38<@Bjarni>the game handles these engines by a standard system
18:38<@Bjarni>it reads engines like they are designed
18:38<@Bjarni>and treats them the very same way
18:38<Phantasm>It is irrelevant how the game handles them.
18:38<Phantasm>It is about the design problems and not how game handles them.
18:38<@Bjarni>but... the design is not in OpenTTD
18:39<@Bjarni>you add some grf files from TTD, remember? ;)
18:39<Phantasm>Yes it is copied from TTD. But OpenTTD could fix problems in the original.
18:39<@Bjarni>the question is if OpenTTD reads data correctly, not if we like the design in the files
18:40<@Bjarni>so you are asking us to alter the numbers on these engines, right?
18:41<Phantasm>Yes, to make them more realistic.
18:41-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:41<Phantasm>At least for monorail as it is obviously faulty.
18:41-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:41<fjb>Hello
18:42<+glx>Phantasm: use newgrfs if you don't like originals
18:42<fjb>!logs
18:42<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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18:42<@Bjarni>Phantasm: we are not changing vehicles we didn't design.... end of story
18:43<+glx>but you are free to modify them with newgrfs :)
18:43<Phantasm>So, you don't change vehicles you didn't design, but you do have loads and loads of different things from the TTD. So just vehicle designs are an exception.
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18:45<@Bjarni>vehicles aren't part of the game core
18:46<fjb>The vehicles are in the files you need from your original TTD cd.
18:47<Patrick`>the vehicles and stats are lifted directly from the original game
18:47<Phantasm>It still doesn't mean they couldn't be changed (without altering original files).
18:47<Patrick`>under a certain set of patch conditions and map generation conditions, the exact original game is playable. that's something we don't lose sight of
18:48<Phantasm>It could be made a patch setting.
18:48<Patrick`>oh boy, another patch setting
18:48<@SmatZ>no, this is what NewGRFs are good for
18:48<+glx>Phantasm: they can be changed, you just need to code a newgrf
18:48<Patrick`>there are new vehicle sets out there
18:48<fjb>And why should one loadable set of vehicles be changed when there are a lot of other loadable vehicle sets? Just load another set.
18:50<fjb>Why should your microwave oven change your pizza when you just can buy another brand of pizza?
18:50<Phantasm>You aren't getting the point clearly.. The fact there is newgrf system doesn't mean that should be used to fix everything. 95% of the newgrf vehicles are totally unrealistic, out of balance etc. And afaik you can only load one of those per vehicle type (or possible hope multiple work without no guarantee).
18:51<Phantasm>That would effectively require me to maky my own newgrf to fix the problem.
18:51<+glx>ukrs and dbset are realistic
18:51<Phantasm>It is hypocritic to state that just because the user can fix the problem it won't be fixed in the game with say patch setting that could be reversed.
18:52<@SmatZ>Phantasm: edit table/engines.h and have your own vehicle parameters :-P
18:52<fjb>At least the rail sets are way more realistic then any of the original vehicles.
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19:04<Forked>err.. fix my client? =p
19:04<+glx>very old Forked
19:04<+glx>that was many hours ago
19:04<Forked>no it's not THAT old..
19:04<Forked>ah yes, I just saw it now
19:04<Forked>Irssi 0.8.11 (20070425) - http://irssi.org
19:04<Forked>someone tell me whats wrong with it :\
19:04<+glx>[19:47:29] <Zr40> apparently, *@ip-address got parsed as *@*
19:05<Forked>ah
19:05-!-Leviath [~Thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:05<+glx>everybody get banned
19:05<Forked>ah. thanks :)
19:05<SpComb>"24h" instead of "+24h" caused it to parse "*@ip-address" as "*@*"
19:05<Forked>heheh
19:07<SpComb>20:26:09 < weasel> LarstiQ: I told operserv to "akill add 24h <mask> <reason>" when I should have said "akill add +24h <mask> <reason>"
19:07<SpComb>20:26:31 < weasel> LarstiQ: operserv turned it into kline *@*, for some bizarre reason
19:10<Forked>that is slightly entertaining :) I wish efnet had tools that messed up like that
19:18<Phantasm>There are 2 things I generally hate in all open source games made based on some existing propietary game.. First is also common in all open source games... Instead of taking a point that multiple users could agree with and benefit from, it very often goes into 'do it yourself'. The point could at least be written somewhere for someone to look about it when there is time and willingness for someone to do something about it. It doesn't matter if the point ...
19:18<Phantasm>... might not be very crusial. The second point is about the way to improve the old game.. Some very arbitraty things are decided to be fixed as they are even if there were significant problems with them. Sure if the feeling of the original game is wanted to be kept, there are some things that should remain very similar to the original, but that is no excuse to fix arbitraty things as such... Of course it could also be argued that there is no reason to keep ...
19:18<Phantasm>... to the original game. Why keep the original if it could be improved? What benefit does it give to keep original design if there are significant improvements possible to be made? Not sure if that came out like I think of it, but anyway the main point is that most non-devs will never turn into devs, so if they want to contribute some ideas they should be more appreciated instead of resulting into the 'code it yourself' which more than likely causes ...
19:18<Phantasm>... future ideas to be lost as the user doesn't feel like telling about them. Even if the idea is such that as itself it might not be something useful, it might be some other developers than the one(s) the user is talking with might think of something derived from it. As in, the team of devs is very limited and thus there won't be endless amount of ideas to improve the game and as such the ideas the users can give should be utilized to the best within ...
19:18<Phantasm>... reason. Typically this isn't the case however and only very significant problems will be addressed from the users unless the dev being talked to is able to directly think something about it.
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>wtf is that wall of text
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>i'm not going to read all that, nono
19:22<Phantasm>Long rant? ;P
19:23<Patrick`>hahahahahahahaa
19:23<Patrick`>this is fucking hilarious
19:23<Patrick`>people on the internet have this mental disorder where they eloquently type pages of queen's english
19:23<Patrick`>to defend the fact that your shitty bug-exploit won't be codified and made easier for YOU to gain an advantage with
19:24<Patrick`>and somehow spin this into a vast self-delusion about the state of the industry
19:24<Phantasm>I'm not talking about the buy/sell train thing.
19:24<Patrick`>you actually are though
19:24<Phantasm>This got nothing to do with it in fact.
19:24<Patrick`>you gave up on that, then SUDDENLY and for a completely unrelated reason, started talking about how OSS devs don't listen to users
19:25<Patrick`>whatver, I'm outta here
19:25<Phantasm>The ranting came up from the point 'we will not modify the original train designs no matter what' and it is a long lasting thing I have noticed and just ranted it out.
19:26<fjb>Hm, when you don't like opensource games, why do you play them at all? The people are developing them for fun in their free time. Payed developers do it for money, so you can tell them what to develop.
19:26-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:26<Phantasm>fjb: I'm not saying I don't like open source games. I'm saying there are problems with them, as are in all games. It is just there is always room for improvement in the way games are made.
19:26<Patrick`>nope.
19:26<Patrick`>you're wrong.
19:27<Gekz>loool.
19:27<Patrick`>UT3 is the most perfect game that will ever exist and it was developed in the most efficient way possible.
19:27<Gekz>o.o
19:27<Gekz>you can't be serious
19:27<Gekz>lol
19:27<Patrick`>every single erg of effort and artwork is fully utilised in the finished product, and it was coded by one guy.
19:27<Phantasm>Patrick`: Whatever you say.
19:28<Patrick`>wait, no, I'm thinking of ANY OPEN SOURCE GAME
19:28<Gekz>Patrick`: why are you crying
19:28<fjb>There is at least one engine for the old infocom adventures. The game engine does interpret the adveture, it does not change it because somebody things the store told in that advanture should change. It is the same with the original vehicles set in OpenTTD. That set data gets interpreted, but not changed.
19:29<Patrick`>Gekz: someone on the internet is WRONG!
19:29<Gekz>Patrick`: holy creeping jesus, then ban yourself indefinitely!
19:30<fjb>And when you start to make switches to change one vehicle set, you cal also make switches for every vehicle set out there. One switch for every thing in every set that somebody wants to change. Why having loadable sets at all ten? Just include every possible vehicle in the world into the game.
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19:49<fjb>FreeBSD 7.0 got released.
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20:07<Tefad>woo!!!
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>no wooing allowed here!
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20:08<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: duck my sick?
20:08<Tefad>; )
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>poor duck, take it to a vet
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20:32<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm strange
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20:34<Gonozal_VIII>_tick_counter is set to 0 in initializegame... and increased every tick... it's only 16 bit.. so it's overflowing all the time?
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20:39<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 01 00:00:00 2008