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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-09

---Logopened Sun Mar 09 00:00:29 2008
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04:39<Wolf01>hello
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04:39<yorick>hello
04:40<Gonozal_VIII>nobody here
04:44<yorick>nope
04:45<Gekz>OH GOD A DOUBLE NEGATIVE
04:45<Gekz>2 - 3 = negative fnu
04:45<Gekz>fun
04:46<yorick>-1
04:46<Gekz>no kid.
04:46<yorick>-2?
04:47<Gekz>0 = -1
04:47<Gonozal_VIII>~0
04:48<Gonozal_VIII>or something like that^^
04:49<Gekz>lol
04:49<Gonozal_VIII>0 = -1 is obviously wrong^^
04:49<Gekz>no.
04:49<Gekz>the test was wrong
04:49<Gekz>:D
04:50<Gekz>they put the x's in the wrong place
04:50<Gekz>so I cancelled them out
04:50<Gonozal_VIII>0 = -1 is wrong becaus you can't call a variable "0" :-)
04:50<yorick>NULL
04:51<Gonozal_VIII>therefore you can't give that variable the value -1
04:51<yorick>-ONE
04:51<Gonozal_VIII>fyi, null is german for 0
04:52<Gonozal_VIII>that's where that comes from ;-)
04:53-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:53<yorick>hello Purno
04:53<Purno>ey
04:53<Gonozal_VIII>hi
04:56<yorick>I'm modifying the move patch so it it is desync-proof
05:00-!-yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
05:00<ln->Yorick|AFK: NO AWAY NICKS
05:01-!-Zuu [~leif@c-363c71d5.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
05:16-!-Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick
05:16<Yorick>ln- where exactly is that in the rules?
05:17<hylje>unwritten
05:17<hylje>common courtesy
05:17<ln->common sense
05:18<Yorick>*sheep* *baaah*
05:18<hylje>rams are awesomer than sheep
05:18<Yorick>more awesome*
05:19<hylje>nitpicking
05:19<Yorick>I do not believe in common sense
05:19<ln->Yorick: the IRC protocol has the away functionality, use that one.
05:20*Yorick ignores ln-
05:20<ln->Yorick: no one cares if you are AFK or eating or showering or sleeping or in the toilet. no need to publicly announce those.
05:21<Prof_Frink>And a good client will automagically mark you as away when you detach or lock its screen session
05:21<Yorick>automagically?!
05:21<Prof_Frink>yes.
05:22<Prof_Frink>Automatically, with magic.
05:22<Yorick>aha
05:23-!-reldred [~reldred@d58-104-48-175.dsl.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
05:24<ln->Yorick: you aren't really ignoring me, are you?
05:24<Yorick>ignoring who?
05:37<Gonozal_VIII>let's all ignore everybody, that will be fun :D
05:39<Gonozal_VIII>yay ignoring fungame
05:39<Yorick>yay
05:42*Gonozal_VIII has lots of fun
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06:08<Yorick>@base 16 10 0xFF
06:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: 255
06:08<Yorick>why does INVALID_PLAYER equal PLAYER_SPECTATOR?
06:08<Gonozal_VIII>you really needed dorpsgek for that?
06:08<Yorick>to check
06:09*Yorick isn't nfo coder
06:09<Gonozal_VIII>spectator can't own anything
06:09<Yorick>ok, using PLAYER_INVALID as NOT_BEING_MOVED value isn't gonna work that way
06:10<Yorick>but what should I use then?
06:12<Yorick>9?
06:12<Gonozal_VIII>not being moved?
06:12<Gonozal_VIII>negative stuff sucks
06:12<Gonozal_VIII>bad style :P
06:12<Yorick>you always need a default value...
06:13<ln->why?
06:13<Gonozal_VIII>default = the rest
06:14<Yorick>if a client is being moved, the server asks for a confirmation to the client, meanwhile, it stores the company in being_moved_to
06:14<Gonozal_VIII>then why would you need a not being moved thingy?
06:15<Yorick>because rule #1, never trust the client
06:15<Gonozal_VIII>every player that's not in being moved to doesn't get moved
06:15<Yorick>no, but he could send a false confirmation
06:15<Gonozal_VIII>then he will desync some time later
06:16<Yorick>no, if he sends a false confirmation, the server has to have a way to know if it has send a request to the client
06:16<Gonozal_VIII>huh?
06:19<Gonozal_VIII>in your system server saves player id, sends request to that player, gets confirmation, compares confirmation with stored player id and then moves... i see no need for any not being moved stuff ther
06:19<Gonozal_VIII>e
06:20<Gonozal_VIII>or did i misunderstand it?
06:21<Yorick>but if client sends confirmation without server sending request, server can't know it and tries to move client
06:21<Yorick>now I think of it, clients have no problem with being moved to spectator when false confirmation
06:22<Gonozal_VIII>why? it just has to look if the player id is the one it saved before
06:22<Yorick>yes
06:22<Yorick>but after that
06:22<Yorick>the client could send another confirmation
06:22<Gonozal_VIII>ah, spectators don't have an id
06:23<Gonozal_VIII>anyways... why should they confirm it?
06:23<Gonozal_VIII>they don't confirm a kick either^^
06:25<Yorick>no, but moving is different
06:25<Gonozal_VIII>why?
06:25<Yorick>if the client sends a command between the change on the server and the change on the client, the server thinks the client is cheating
06:25<Yorick>because it has a different playerid with the docommand
06:26-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]@ip52.cab21.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
06:26<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think that matters
06:27<Yorick>it does
06:27<Gonozal_VIII>that's some split seconds
06:27<Yorick>it does
06:27-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd
06:27<Yorick>in theory, it could let all other clients desync
06:27<Yorick>which is bad
06:27<Gonozal_VIII>if the client built something in that time it will just appear in the old company
06:27<LordAzamath>hloe
06:28<Yorick>no, Gonozal
06:28<Yorick>it won't
06:28<Yorick>because the server has checks to prevent clients from building in other companies
06:28<Yorick>and if a command gets executed on the client, but not on the server, you get different amounts of random usage
06:29<Gonozal_VIII>well... then don't build when you're moved
06:29-!-Brianetta [~brian@77-103-231-158.cable.ubr05.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
06:29<Yorick>moving can happan against will
06:29<Yorick>happen*
06:29<Gonozal_VIII>i think the chance is very low
06:30<Gonozal_VIII>and if it happens, the client desyncs and has to join again... not that much of a problem
06:30<Yorick>with slow connections...
06:30<Vikthor>Yorick: Can't you send info before you actually move that client?
06:30<Yorick>thats the way how I do it now
06:30<Gonozal_VIII>or pause the game
06:31<Yorick>Gonozal_VIII: but, if the server has already queued the commands, and then sends them to the clients, while they're invalid...
06:31<Yorick>all clients will refuse to execute that command while the server has already done it, which results in a desync for all clients
06:32<Gonozal_VIII>then drop queued commands of a client if you move it
06:32<Yorick>will result in that client desyncs
06:32<Vikthor>Gonozal_VIII: I am afraid that will affect Random
06:33<Gonozal_VIII>yes, but won't affect the others
06:33<Vikthor>Gonozal_VIII: But that's bad design
06:33<Yorick>keeping random things in mind is very difficult, because it's very...random
06:34<Gonozal_VIII>in what situations would you move clients around?
06:34<Gonozal_VIII>without telling them first
06:34<Yorick>in situations where they sabotage companies
06:34<Yorick>cheat
06:34<Gonozal_VIII>and is it really that bad if they desync then?
06:34<Yorick>no, but it is if other clients will
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06:35<Gonozal_VIII>others won't, if you drop the commands of that client
06:35<Vikthor>Gonozal_VIII: But then there is now need for moving, you can kick him riht away
06:35<Yorick>that could affect random
06:36<Yorick>because, AFAIK, the commands are already executed on the server
06:36<Gonozal_VIII>the chance that he really sent something in those split seconds is very low imho
06:36<Yorick>it doesn't have to be split seconds
06:37<Yorick>if I was a sabotager that wanted to desync other clients while being moved, I would make auto-bribe-on-move
06:37<LordAzamath>is tyhere any special reason why in TTDP signals face the other way than in OpenTTD?
06:38<Yorick>because you can ajust it in ottd
06:38<Gonozal_VIII>how should he know when he will be moved? he only knows that after it happened
06:38<Gonozal_VIII>what do you mean face the other way la?
06:38<Yorick>Gonozal_VIII: just before the client is moved, he recieves a PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE
06:38<Yorick>for him to disable buttons asap
06:38<Vikthor>Yorick: Just send to the client "you are being moved", wait for him to acknowledge it, procces any commands you got meanwhile and the move him
06:39<Yorick>that is how I do it now
06:39<Vikthor>And where is the problem?
06:39<@peter1138>LordAzamath, 'face the other way'? What?
06:40<Yorick>with my new one, there isn't
06:40<LordAzamath>Gonozal_VIII, the signal which is faced to me is on the other side of rail in TTDP and OTTD
06:40<Yorick>with the old implementation, there is what I just described
06:40<Vikthor>aha
06:40<Gonozal_VIII>there's a signals on driver side patch setting
06:41<LordAzamath>ok.. didn't know :P
06:41<LordAzamath>and it's default in open?
06:41<@peter1138>Ah, 'face the other way' is not quite the same is 'on the opposite side'
06:41<LordAzamath>well.. peter1138 signals on one side of rail face the other side :P
06:42<LordAzamath>way**
06:42<SpComb>move who where? :o
06:42<@peter1138>Yes, that's not what you said originally ;)
06:42<LordAzamath>you there
06:42<@peter1138>The patch option defaults on.
06:42<@peter1138>And makes no difference if your drive-side is left.
06:42<@peter1138>As it should be.
06:43<Gonozal_VIII>should not
06:43<Yorick>now, there is a problem with my implementation
06:43<Prof_Frink>should too
06:43<@peter1138>Also, I've been robbed. My boss gave me his old wireless mouse but the scroll wheel doesn't work properly.
06:43<Gonozal_VIII>only crater people drive left
06:43<Prof_Frink>*greater
06:43<Gonozal_VIII>crater :P
06:43<Yorick>the problem is that clients can choose NOT to send a confirmation
06:43<Yorick>so they can't be moved
06:43<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: You are wrong.
06:44<Gonozal_VIII>yesyes, i know... some strange misleaded other people drive left too
06:44<Vikthor>Yorick: Then set some timeout, after which confirmation is implied
06:44<Prof_Frink>We are English, and therefore right about *everything*.
06:44<SpComb>peter1138: sue him
06:45<@peter1138>I shalL!
06:45<Vikthor>Prof_Frink: Would you care to prove it?
06:45<Prof_Frink>I don't need to.
06:45<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe setting up a road tranfer from a farm to the nearest station wasn't such a good idea.
06:46<@peter1138>The frequent loading has caused the farm's output to explode :o
06:48<Gonozal_VIII>strange, usually trucks have lower rating
06:48<Yorick>Vikthos: how do I set one?
06:49<Vikthor>honestly I do not know, I would have to take deeper look on the protocol
06:50<Yorick>I don't even think its possible
06:50<Yorick>without hacking into loops
06:52-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C979.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
07:05<LordAzamath>euck.. I hate when TTDPatch gives me crashes
07:05*LordAzamath stays to OpenTTD :P
07:08<@peter1138>with
07:09<@peter1138>Gonozal_VIII, it's a short run, so they're calling often. A train would sit there waiting a while for full-load.
07:09<Gonozal_VIII>rating goes up while loading too
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07:14<Forked>meep
07:14<Yorick>meep
07:15<Gonozal_VIII>you're meeping
07:18<SpComb>Bjarni!
07:18<Gonozal_VIII>there's no bjarni
07:19<SpComb>that's no reason not to.... Bjarni!
07:19<Gonozal_VIII>there is!
07:19<Yorick>Bjarni!
07:19<Gonozal_VIII>you're violating my copyright
07:20<SpComb>do you mean to say that "Bjarni!" constitutes a copyrightable work?
07:20<SpComb>it's more of a trademark, and afaik nobody has registered it
07:21*SpComb ponders doing so
07:24*peter1138 ponders banning it.
07:24<Yorick>peter1138!
07:24<@peter1138>Yes?
07:25<Yorick>please don't
07:25<Yorick>you coudl ban Gonozal_VIII with that
07:25<Gonozal_VIII>:P
07:25<Gonozal_VIII>it's my invention!
07:25<Yorick>havily used on #?
07:27<@peter1138>I
07:27<@peter1138>I'd only ban annoying people.
07:27<Yorick>am I annoying people
07:27<Yorick>?
07:29<Gonozal_VIII>only while you're here, the rest of the time you're ok :-)
07:30<Yorick>how do you know?
07:30<Gonozal_VIII>because nobody can see you then :-)
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08:14<Yorick>hmm...what shall I set as inactivity limit
08:14<Ammller>devs, I have an idea, how it would be possible to allow rivers.
08:15<Yorick>did you already check the lively rivers draft?
08:15<Ammller>Yorick: do you think that will be in 0.6?
08:16<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think there will be any new feature in 0.6
08:16<Ammller>well rivers is nre, its just buggy
08:16<Yorick>anyone has to make a patch for it first
08:17<Gonozal_VIII>not really buggy... just incomplete
08:17<Ammller>you could make it depense on town names
08:17<@peter1138>Ammller: bugs.openttd.org
08:17<Gonozal_VIII>town names? i don't understand what you mean
08:17<Ammller>if you choose "Swiss", its allowed to build rivers.
08:17<Yorick>:o?
08:17<Gonozal_VIII>wtf^^
08:18<Ammller>because reason, why they didn't inlcude it, is "unrealistic".
08:18<Ammller>in our country, its unrealistic to build canals
08:18<Gonozal_VIII>oh... i thought you were german
08:18<Yorick>and it isn't unrealistic to build rivers, you say?
08:19<Gonozal_VIII>sorry for that
08:19<Ammller>Gonozal_VIII: :)
08:21<SmatZ>[13:17:44] <Ammller> if you choose "Swiss", its allowed to build rivers. <- :-D
08:22<Ammller>hmm, maybe there are other countries?
08:23<Ammller>I know only Holland and German isn't.
08:26<Gonozal_VIII>a lot of rivers here were turned into canals to get more room...
08:26*peter1138 still wonders what the bugs referred to are...
08:26<Gonozal_VIII>that you can't build rivers ingame
08:27<@peter1138>Well that's not a bug.
08:27<Gonozal_VIII>i think that's what he was talking about
08:28<Gonozal_VIII>btw ammler, how do you talk if you talk to germans?
08:29<Ammller>english or german, why?
08:29-!-thgergo [~Administr@dsl51B60E01.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:29<Ammller>same as you, I assume :-)
08:29<Gonozal_VIII>well... i guess they could understand 90% or something anyways... just leave out the weird words^^
08:30<Ammller>its not only words
08:31<Gonozal_VIII>what else?
08:31-!-thgergo [~Administr@dsl51B60E01.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd
08:32<Ammller>grammer, but mine isn't documented
08:32<Ammller>I guess, its only possible to lear züri-swiss-german
08:32<Ammller>learn
08:32<Gonozal_VIII>grammar isn't very important to understand the meaning
08:33<Ammller>well, maybe they just don't want understand us :-)
08:33<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
08:33<Yorick>its the difference between man eats dog and dog eats man!
08:33<Gonozal_VIII>it's funny to see swiss tv with german subtitles
08:34<Ammller>well for austria tis nearly able to understand swiss german
08:34<Ammller>at least for "Voralberg"
08:34<Gonozal_VIII>they talk almost the same in the western part
08:34<Gonozal_VIII>yes
08:35<@peter1138>"I helped my uncle Jack off the horse."
08:35<Ammller>you aren't from there, then?
08:35<Yorick>nah, not original, peter1138
08:36<Gonozal_VIII>nope, if you draw a rectangular box around austria, i would be almost exactly in the middle^^
08:36<Gekz>peter1138: you cant help but corrupt our minds
08:36<Gonozal_VIII>you shouldn't use uppercase there peter
08:37<Ammller>hehe Kitzbühl?
08:37<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm not really^^
08:37<Gonozal_VIII>maybe the box thingy is wrong... did never actually check that
08:38<Ammller>oh, I didn't either
08:38<Ammller>but we drove through there many times in past
08:38<Ammller>to go to Lainach (Mölltal)
08:39<Ammller>almost yearly
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08:44<Gonozal_VIII>checked the rectangle stuff now^^
08:44<Gonozal_VIII>the middle is in salzburg, so a little bit too far west
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08:44<Gonozal_VIII>and north
08:45<Gonozal_VIII>but not much :-)
08:45<Ammller>Austria is country of openttd INs :-P
08:46<Gonozal_VIII>it's not Gonozal_VIIIIN :P
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08:50<Ammller>well, we wait for RC to fix that river bug ;-)
08:50<Yorick>what river bug
08:51<Prof_Frink>*that* river bug.
08:51<Ammller>I am the onlyone, see it that way.
08:51<Ammller>so, I have no chance to have that fixed :-)
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>you have
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>write a patch
08:53<LordAzamath>:o
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>and while you're at it, write the whole lively river stuff ;-)
08:53<Ammller>well, it will not be commited before branch for 0.6 is made
08:53<Prof_Frink>Or, continually annoy peter1138 until it's done.
08:54<Gonozal_VIII>nooooo bad idea
08:54<Gonozal_VIII>that would delay 0.6
08:54<Prof_Frink>peter1138! NewRelease!
08:55<Gekz>SEX
08:55<Ammller>well, not sure what more annoying, asking for fixing a bug or for release :P
08:55<Prof_Frink>That's what she said.
08:55<Gonozal_VIII>yes, bug him about working faster on the release instead
08:55<Vikthor>Ammller: It's not bug it's lack of features
08:55<Ammller>Vikthor: well, its not lack, its too much feature :-)
08:56<Vikthor>Than you see, it's not a bug it's feature :D
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08:59<Forked>hmm
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08:59<Prof_Frink>Oh no, a Llobster!
09:00<Forked>just not used to having hilight triggered here..
09:01*peter1138 tescoinates
09:02<Prof_Frink>TESCO
09:08<Ammller>LordAzamath: did you get Feedback about opengfx from current ps game?
09:09<Yorick>oh noes
09:09<Yorick>a nobster
09:09<Yorick>lobster*
09:10<Yorick>that one should take m out of his quit message
09:10<Yorick>me
09:11<LordAzamath>Ammller, well.. One thing to the thread :P
09:11<LordAzamath>the snow
09:11<LordAzamath>and I don't remember the others :P
09:12<LordAzamath>is it possible to check vehicle speed with var2?
09:12<LordAzamath>actually, make decision based on speed
09:12<LordAzamath>vehicle speed*
09:13<@peter1138>Course it is
09:13<@peter1138>Assuming you mean varaction 2
09:13<LordAzamath>yes
09:14<LordAzamath>I didn't find it from vehicle info
09:14<@peter1138>property 0xB4
09:14<LordAzamath>argh
09:14*LordAzamath never looks to that table
09:15<Patrick`>hmmph
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11:11<dih>:-)
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11:13<Yorick>hello dih
11:13<dih>hi
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11:15<Yorick>I've worked out the PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ and PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE_OK things, only thing I need now is a timeout
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11:19<Yorick>I could for example check, if a DoCommand executing frame is higher than the time the PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ has been sent
11:19<Yorick>or a sync...
11:20<Vikthor>Can't you set the timeout for say 10 frames, or somthing like that?
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11:21<Yorick>if you tell me how
11:21<dih>Yorick: what do you do on the client
11:22<dih>send a PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE_OK right after it moved itself?
11:22<Yorick>yes
11:22<dih>nice
11:22<dih>so - what if i dont send that packet?
11:22<Yorick>..., only thing I need now is a timeout....
11:22<dih>what happens if i 'timeout'
11:23<Yorick>the move will be sent to the other clients and executed on the server
11:23<dih>after timeout?
11:23<Yorick>yes
11:23<dih>then set timeout to the amount of frames a client may be slow
11:24<Yorick>I do not even know how to set the timeout
11:24<Yorick>something with the frameloop
11:24<Yorick>probably ^^
11:27<Yorick>I'll find out ^^
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11:32<Yorick>pff...I need to know how to count from 1 to 10 in chinese before tomorrow
11:32<Gonozal_VIII>that's easy
11:32<Yorick>is it?
11:32<Gonozal_VIII>you start at the chinese 1 and stop at the chinese 10
11:32<Gonozal_VIII>:-)
11:33<Yorick>I need to know how to write and say all numbers in a range from 1 to 10
11:33<Gonozal_VIII>pff google it
11:33<SmatZ>yeah
11:33<Yorick>I have it in front of me
11:33<Gonozal_VIII>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals
11:33<Yorick>I only need to write them now
11:34<Yorick>? :o
11:35<Yorick>I can't copy them :(
11:35<Gonozal_VIII>there's even an animation how to draw it
11:36<Yorick>I know how to draw them, but remembering it is something totaly else when you're not chinese
11:38<Yorick>%E6%8D%8C :o
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11:49<dih>CS:S players here?
11:49<Gonozal_VIII>[16:46:44] <Gonozal_VIII> anyways, japanese is way cooler than chinese
11:49<Yorick>that is a dangerous question
11:50<Yorick>I now have a satanic version of me hunting me
11:50<Yorick>no its not, Gonozal_VIII
11:50<Gonozal_VIII>is too!
11:50<Gonozal_VIII>all those anime are in japanese!
11:50<Yorick>true
11:51<Yorick>Chinese don't make stupid anime
11:51<Gonozal_VIII>stupid :O
11:51<SmatZ>chinese make fine cloathes
11:51<Yorick>ok, say some anime that is not stupid
11:52<Gonozal_VIII>megami-sama :D
11:52-!-fjb [~frank@p5485BE2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:52<dih>stupid
11:52<fjb>Hello
11:52<fjb>!logs
11:52<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
11:52<dih>:-)
11:53<Gonozal_VIII>naaaaaah belldandy ftw!
11:54<fjb><sing> I like chinese, they only grow up to your knees </sing>
11:55<Yorick>true
11:55<Patrick`>mmm
11:55<Yorick>the longest people on earth compared to the shortest :)
11:55<Yorick>its like a sea of black hair
11:57<fjb>Hm, the train reversing (push / pull service) has a big design flaw. :-(
12:04<+glx>fjb: it is newgrf dependant
12:04<Ammller>hoja, does that already work in ottd?
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12:05<fjb>Has the grf the ability to reverse the whole train? I thought it can only exchange the sprites of the first and last vehicle in a train.
12:05<fjb>Ammller: It does.
12:05<Yorick>:o
12:05<Yorick>since?
12:05<Ammller>so you have a "hacked" canadian set?
12:05<fjb>No.
12:05<Ammller>or is there an other set?
12:06<fjb>Yes.
12:06<+glx>the grf can do that if it tests the right things
12:06<Yorick>since?
12:06<Ammller>fjb: and which one :-)
12:06<+glx>Yorick: since var FE bit 8 is implemented
12:06<fjb>The UKRS exchanges first and last vehicle and turns that vehicles around.
12:06<Yorick>oh, that one
12:07<fjb>But the wagons beside the first and the last in the train still reverse.
12:09<fjb>A push/pull train entering a terminal station with the locomotive first leaves it with the locomotive last and the driving wagon first. But the other wagons in the train still behave like the not push pull trains. At least that is the behavioour of UKRS.
12:11<fjb>Put a wagon with a different color in the train, not as the first or last wagon, but also not as the middle of the train, so that the train looks asymetrical. You see that onle locomotive and driving wagon exchange places.
12:12<fjb>A different colored wagon in the last part of the train jumps to the first part of the train then.
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12:14<fjb>Can the GRF fix that? Or is that a flaw of the of the var FE bit 8 specification?
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12:26<Eddi|zuHause>it should be done totally different
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>most natural way would be a negative speed...
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the game urgently needs to get rid of the concept of a "front engine"
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "front" and an "engine", they don't need to coincide
12:31<+glx><fjb> Can the GRF fix that? Or is that a flaw of the of the var FE bit 8 specification? <-- a grf can fix it I think, like it does for the first and last
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it is horribly complicated
12:32<+glx>lot of action 2 :)
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>the purpose of a grf is for the designer not to need to know about the implementation... this feature totally fails that design principle
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12:36<Ammller>fjb: maybe you should "hack" canada train set and look how it works on openttd
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>what the grf feature really needs is a flag "this vehicle can be at the front of a train" and "this vehicle has speed limit X when driving forwards, and Y when driving backwards"
12:38<Ammller>"this vehicle can be at the front of a train" <-- is that needed?
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you cannot drive a train backwards unless it has a steering wagon at the other end
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>the next natural extension would be a flag "this engine has shunting ability" [removing the requirement of the steering engine, but possibly reduced speed and different signalling rules]
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13:03<Slowpoke>if I play whith some ECS-VEctor-grfs, what trainset is best to use? (eg. for transporting automobiles etc.)
13:03<LordAzamath>DBset with ECS extension I guess
13:04<Patrick`>yo
13:04<Patrick`>any cheese monkeys here?
13:04<Slowpoke>okay thanks
13:04<Patrick`>it seems like the most european of my channels
13:04<Patrick`>vivre la vie francais, "live the french life". I know what it literally means, but is it a phrase that means something else?
13:06<LordAzamath>hmm.. Is there any special reason why the original terrain generator gives exactly one half of map above snowline and the other half below? (diagonally.. snow line height set to 7)
13:07<LordAzamath>I know that it uses that method in sub-tropical to make a desert/river/rainforest area..
13:07<LordAzamath>but why in arctic?
13:07<Yorick>because exactly half of the map is above 7?
13:07<Yorick>because arctic is set to mountainious?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>LordAzamath: forests may only appear above snow line, this method was used to ensure that there was significant area of snow
13:09<LordAzamath>hmm..
13:09<LordAzamath>it looks reallly weird
13:09<LordAzamath>I set it to 13 now
13:09<Yorick>that's why we have terragenisis?
13:09<Patrick`>it's over 9000!
13:09*LordAzamath wanted original :P
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>LordAzamath: it is inherited from the original game
13:10<Patrick`>mmm, francais
13:10<LordAzamath>k
13:10<LordAzamath>in that case I didn't want original :P
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>so if you want a real reason (instead of my, let's call it "edjucated guess"), you have to ask chris sawyer
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13:15<LordAzamath>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah.. Perhaps he can submit a fix to it.. //ironic
13:16<Patrick`>does the man himself actually know we exist?
13:16<Patrick`>... does he idle on IRC?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>i am pretty certain he does
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>if by "we" you mean "the openttd project"
13:17<LordAzamath>Patrick`: I'm pretty sure he knows approximatly how many people exist, so maybe he doesn't know you to exist.. But some of us for certain
13:18<LordAzamath>sry for too much TTDP activity, but I'm not in a mood for compiling today :P.. And I didn't get answer from #tycoon
13:19<LordAzamath>> what is the switch in ttdpatchw.cfg to allow building on steep slopes?
13:19<Yorick>building_on_slopes?
13:19<Yorick>but is it possible?
13:19<Yorick>ctrl-f trpe slopes
13:19<LordAzamath>I thought so..
13:20<LordAzamath>autoslope
13:20<LordAzamath>buildonslope
13:20<LordAzamath>but neither of the allows to build on steep slopes..
13:20<Yorick>who said anything about steep?
13:21<Yorick>dih: I'm wondering, where should I store the temporary moving data?
13:22<fjb>Ammller: Sorry, I was away from the computer. The licence of the Canadian Set explicitly forbids hacking the set.
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13:24<fjb>Slowpoke: DBset + ECS extension has some disadvatages. UKRS has better ECS compatibility, so does the Serbian Set.
13:26*hylje thinks fjb is a slowpoke :-)
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13:26<LordAzamath>slow...poke indeed
13:27*fjb wasn't at the computer the last hour and is still catching up the channel.
13:27<hylje>hence
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13:32<Yorick>"if (!ci->being_moved) return; /* The client was never about to be moved;client is a cheetah; so ignore him */"
13:35<Ammller>fjb: well, hacking and distribut
13:36<Ammller>but you need just to remove the action which does make error because of openttd and use it for yourself
13:36<Ammller>dalestand self mentioned somethng like that
13:37<Ammller>you can hack everything as long ans noeone else does catch you ;-)
13:38<Yorick>experience?
13:39<Ammller>buh, no, I am a user :)
13:39<Ammller>"only"
13:42<Yorick>I still don't get, you have a nice and shiny client_lang, next to fill it with NETLANG_ANY for every client :(
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13:45<@peter1138>16:36 Eddi|zuHause> yes, you cannot drive a train backwards unless it has a steering wagon at the other end
13:45<@peter1138>Trains need *steering*?
13:46<fjb>I could hack it, but I think even hacking without distribution is explicitly forbidden.
13:47<Yorick>nope
13:47<fjb>And why should I use a set when the creator doesn't want me to use it? There are many other nice sets around.
13:48*fjb has seen trains getting pushed with out a steering wagon.
13:48<Yorick>what is the problem with keeping STATUS_INACTIVE sometimes?
13:51<fjb>Ammller: Modifications to code (NFO) is not permitted.
13:52<@peter1138>You can modify OpenTTD though...
13:54<fjb>Hm, modify OpenTTD to disguise as TTDP? :-)
13:54<Ammller>fjb: should I do it for you?
13:55<fjb>Ammller: No, I respect the authors wish and don't want to play that set.
13:55<Ammller>ah, was a joke
13:55<Ammller>would be too complicated for me anyway
13:56<fjb>I don't think is would be that coplicated. You only have to do advanced pattern matching. The way I'm patching OpenTTD without understanding the source code. :-)
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13:58<Ammller>yeah, Dalestan already explained it at the canada set
13:58<Ammller>thread
13:59<Yorick>dih: could you give me some help?
14:01<Yorick>[19:00] <@dih> !password <-- I take that as a no :)
14:01<dih>what you need?
14:01<Yorick>I wonder: 1.where I should store the moving timeout
14:01<Yorick>2.how much it should be
14:02<Yorick>_frame_counter + NetworkCalculateLag(NetworkFindClientStateFromIndex(client_index)) is not enough, I think
14:02<dih>Yorick: cannot help you there
14:02<Yorick>:(
14:03<Yorick>I'll make it "lag * 3"
14:04*LordAzamath does some homework now.. cu
14:04<Yorick>cu
14:04<Yorick>have fun :p
14:08<fjb>Can anybody invent drive through railway depots, please?
14:09<Tefad>i really like the pocket universe in depots
14:10<Tefad>where'd those to 100 car trains go? ohhh they're both in this depot
14:10<Prof_Frink>Someone should make a GRF where the depots are blue
14:10<Prof_Frink>With a light on top
14:10<Prof_Frink>And "POLICE CALL BOX" on the side
14:10<Tefad>also i meant to type two.
14:10<LordAzamath>Prof_Frink: Gimme graphics :P
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14:11<LordAzamath>ooh.. I had to do homework :O
14:11<LordAzamath>Bjarni!
14:11<fjb>That is kind of a problem actually. I have a depot which likes to "eat" trains. Trains arriving at the depot are keeping the others trains from leaving that depot.
14:11<Yorick>bjarni!
14:13<@Bjarni>anybody in here admitting to being Swedish?
14:13<dih>hey there
14:15<Sacro>Bjarni!
14:15<@Bjarni>...
14:15<Sacro>i was swedish yesterday
14:15<@Bjarni>do you admit to being Swedish?
14:15<Sacro>http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd/view/2008-03-08~221#goto
14:15<Sacro>Ja
14:16<@Bjarni>fint... jeg skal bruge en svensk telefonbog. Har du et link?
14:17-!-Jortuny [~octernion@rrdhcp62-139.redrover.cornell.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:17<Yorick>:)
14:17<Yorick>the move patch timeout finally works
14:17<@peter1138>Sacrø
14:17<@Bjarni>no reply...
14:20<@Bjarni>dammit
14:20<@Bjarni>one of the rare occasions where I need this channel to give some info then nobody can say anything useful :(
14:23<Yorick>http://electricpotential.net/ircstats/openttd2.html <-- :O at quote #8 for dutch people
14:25<LordAzamath>haha Yorick You are the last there :P
14:25<@Bjarni>it would appear that I'm talking about a picture of a steam locomotive
14:25<Yorick>at least I'm in there
14:26<Yorick>to* ^^
14:27<LordAzamath>Yorick: I'm in there too... In the next table :P
14:28<guru3>well i'll be
14:28<guru3>people do check those pages
14:29<Yorick>some
14:29<Yorick>!stats
14:29<Yorick>no stats
14:29<@peter1138>Bjarni, sorry, we're OpenTTD players, not steam buffs...
14:29<+glx>@stats
14:29<@DorpsGek>glx: I have 6 registered users with 6 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
14:29<Yorick>make stats appear there, and all will visit that page
14:29<Yorick>@channel stats
14:29<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Error: 'supybot.stats' is not a valid configuration variable.
14:30<Yorick>@config search stats
14:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: supybot.plugins.ChannelStats, supybot.plugins.ChannelStats.public, supybot.plugins.ChannelStats.selfStats, supybot.plugins.ChannelStats.smileys, and supybot.plugins.ChannelStats.frowns
14:30<@Bjarni>peter1138: there is a fair chance that I'm replying to a picture somebody else posted
14:30<Roujin>lol, "patch" is place 10 on most used words ^^
14:30<Yorick>@config plugins.ChannelStats
14:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: True
14:31<LordAzamath>Roujin: Look at the persons who used that word :P
14:31<Yorick>poor I :(
14:31<LordAzamath>glx, dih, ammler..... those words*
14:31<dih>wtf?
14:31<LordAzamath>sorry for highlightnign
14:32<Yorick>dih: while you're here, the timeout works :)
14:32<dih>^^
14:32<dih>good
14:32<Yorick>I'll upload a screen
14:32<Yorick>http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=geennaam2jan1960nm9.png
14:33<@Bjarni>moving on when it gets a timeout?
14:34<@Bjarni>isn't that usually a "don't do this"?
14:34<Yorick>no
14:34<Yorick>because clients could then block moving
14:35<@Bjarni>what is it that timesout?
14:37<Yorick>the patch sends a PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ to the client, client moves self, sends PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE_OK, server moves client for every other client
14:37<Yorick>but, if client ignore PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ, client fails to be moved
14:37<SmatZ>Yorick: why do you need to confirm it by client?
14:38<Yorick>because otherwise clients could desync
14:38<SmatZ>are you sure about it?
14:38<Yorick>long story, d1h knows how to explain :)
14:38<@Bjarni>then wouldn't you have the desync issue on timeout?
14:39<Yorick>yes
14:39<dih>lol - this is cute
14:39<@Bjarni>cute?
14:39<Yorick>have to run for dinner now
14:39<Yorick>cya :)
14:39<@peter1138>So they can desync or they can desync? Hmm
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14:40<dih>no
14:40<dih>his idea was that a client gets a move request
14:40<dih>and the server a move confirmation
14:40<dih>so that there is time to process any docommands in between
14:40<dih>(which i am not sure is a good idea)
14:41<dih>move is move - if client likes it or not
14:41<dih>just that if the server does a move, and the client a docommand
14:41<dih>before the client was updated
14:41<dih>-> out
14:42<dih>kick for invalid packet :-P
14:42<@Bjarni>wouldn't it be better to make the server make a command telling the clients to move the client at tick X?
14:42<dih>would be better yes
14:42<dih>but docommands address companies, not clients
14:44<ln->Bjarni!!
14:44<LordAzamath>ln-: You are VERY late...
14:45<ln->LordAzamath: i know, i was watching a documentary of the Wright brothers
14:45<LordAzamath>those guys who made the plane?
14:45<fjb>Bye
14:46-!-fjb [~frank@p5485BE2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:46<LordAzamath>cu
14:46<ln->the ones
14:47-!-dih [~dihedral@dslb-088-066-150-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:47<ln->now watching: Eesti Televisioon
14:47<LordAzamath>ln-: What comes there?
14:48<ln->some show that looks exactly like the finnish Uutisvuoto.
14:48*LordAzamath checks www.kava.ee
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14:49<LordAzamath>oo.. teletaip :P
14:49-!-Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-124-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
14:51<LordAzamath>generally, I don't watch ETV...
14:51<LordAzamath>only some cultural programs mostly
14:51<LordAzamath>are there
14:51<ln->generally, I don't either, because generally it's not visible.
14:52<LordAzamath>hehe
14:52<LordAzamath>it has the srrongest signal in Estonia though
14:52<ln->it's on cable here
14:52<LordAzamath>so I guess parts of Finland can reach it
14:53<LordAzamath>k
14:55<LordAzamath>mai gaawd... /me has yet to have completed some homework..
14:55<LordAzamath>and I totally forgot it
14:55<LordAzamath>now
14:55<LordAzamath>:(
14:56<LordAzamath>one A4 page full of some russian text to retell :o
14:56*Slowpoke has to write a poem :(
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14:57<LordAzamath> /me would usually laugh over Slowpoke but won't do it today, because shares the same fate of awful homework
14:57<LordAzamath>:O
14:57<Slowpoke>do I have to do something special to get the serbian trainset?
14:57<LordAzamath>yea..
14:57<LordAzamath>download it, install it..
14:57<Roujin>yes, stand on your head and sing a lullaby
14:58<LordAzamath>lullaby lullaboo lull... Ouch.. I fell
14:58<Slowpoke>I ment something special compared to other grfs
14:58<Roujin>shush LA, don't make fun of people by telling them nonsensical instructions >:(
14:58<Slowpoke>since it shows a empty warning all the time
14:59<LordAzamath>shush Roujin, don't give them right instructions
14:59<LordAzamath>x(
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15:00*Slowpoke tried that stand-on-head-thing but failed, now uses UKRS
15:01<LordAzamath>You have to have a full triangle between your hands, shoulders and head...
15:01<LordAzamath>It's way easier to stand on head that way;P
15:01<ln->märtsi pommittamisest 64 aastat, hmm
15:01<LordAzamath>true
15:01<LordAzamath>one t though
15:02<LordAzamath>:P
15:05<ln->eesti geoloogiakeskuse geoloog
15:05<LordAzamath>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23546098/
15:05<LordAzamath>:O
15:06<LordAzamath>ln-: ?
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15:06<ln->watching news
15:06<Gonozal_VIII>nope
15:06<ln->yes
15:06<Gonozal_VIII>am not!
15:06<ln->objection!
15:07<ln->am yes
15:07<Prof_Frink>overruled!
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>hehe
15:07<LordAzamath>:O
15:07<LordAzamath>how come you are not invited?
15:08<LordAzamath>now better
15:08<Patrick`>ln is argentinian?
15:08<LordAzamath>yes
15:08<LordAzamath>aren't you?
15:08<LordAzamath>:)
15:08<Gonozal_VIII>northern part
15:08<ln->saksa soturit
15:09<ln->sounds funny
15:09<LordAzamath>sõdurid not soturit
15:09<LordAzamath>or sõdurit.. depends on context
15:09<Gonozal_VIII>Saksan sotureita: Hermann Göring
15:09<Patrick`>mmm, prawns
15:09<Gonozal_VIII>huh
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15:37<Yorick>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1363#comment3626
15:37<Yorick>now let the comments arrive!
15:38<Yorick>dev's seem to have a highlight on "dev's" :)
15:39<Gonozal_VIII>gepauzeerd^^ what a strange word
15:39*Sacro slaps Yorick for apostrophe abuse
15:39<Yorick>grr
15:41<Yorick>translation fo' paused
15:41<@peter1138>Quite.
15:41*Vikthor slaps Sacro for slap abuse
15:41<Sacro>:(
15:41<Yorick>Quite what?
15:42<@peter1138>Apostrophe abuse.
15:42<Sacro>A BUG A BUG A BUG
15:43<Sacro>peter1138: can you check your pbs server
15:43<Sacro>0x97B3 onwards is a tram route
15:43<Yorick>you all seem to notice my apotsroph abuse, but not my patch:(
15:43<Sacro>but nobody owns it
15:44*peter1138 moves to other machine...
15:44<Sacro>i must have gone bankrupt, but my tramlines still exist
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15:44<@peter1138>Yarly, this one.
15:44<Sacro>can other companies use them?
15:44<Sacro>i must admit
15:44<Sacro>Hull still has 100 year old tram tracks from years gone by
15:45<Sacro>but they did remove the catenary ;)
15:46*Yorick needs attention
15:46-!-Haxonic [~octernion@hermes.mae.cornell.edu] has joined #openttd
15:46<@peter1138>Hmm.
15:47<Yorick>I am not entirely sure about "generic action chat message"
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15:49<@peter1138>Sacro, they can be shared, apparently.
15:53-!-UFO64 [~UFO64@cpe-24-31-128-172.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
15:53<Sacro>peter1138: really? :o
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16:11<@peter1138>Hmm
16:12<Yorick>.
16:12-!-caladan [~caladan@161-bem-18.acn.waw.pl] has joined #openttd
16:12<@Bjarni>good point
16:15<Yorick>Bjarni: can't you take a look at it, and include it, crediting dih and me?
16:15<ln->Bjarni: what about this one: ·
16:15<Yorick>'!
16:15<Yorick>.·'!
16:15<@Bjarni>take a look at what?
16:15<@Bjarni>your '?
16:15<Yorick>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1363#comment3626
16:16<Yorick>.·'/.·'/'·.\'·.\'·.
16:17<@Bjarni>are you making a parody of perl or something?
16:17<Yorick>uh?
16:17<Prof_Frink>parody?
16:17<Yorick>perl?
16:19<Yorick>why?
16:19<@Bjarni>one-word-sentences?
16:19<Yorick>where?
16:19<@Bjarni>here
16:20<Yorick>where-here?
16:20<Prof_Frink>ban?
16:20<@Bjarni>ok
16:21<Prof_Frink>bugger.
16:21<Yorick>no
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16:32<ln->i'm sensing a local maximum point in the quality of discussion.
16:33<hylje>you imply you can derive the discussion
16:34<@Bjarni>discussion?
16:34<@Bjarni>where?
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16:56<Wolf01>'night
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17:21<Chrill>Hey! I've got a simple question. What font is it in the OpenTTD main screen? ( http://www.holarse-linuxgaming.de/h2006/space/Transport%20Tycoon/Transport-Tycoon_2.jpeg ) / Is it downloable anywhere? :)
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17:22<+glx>Chrill: they are sprites
17:22<Chrill>Ah, okay. Thanks :)
17:25<@peter1138>Hmm, an old shot that still says that long title...
17:26<@Bjarni>and no mentioning of the version either
17:26-!-Diabolic-Angel [~dia@xdsl-84-44-233-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>aaaaargh... jpeg!!
17:28-!-Roujin [~Roujin@mnch-4d042d73.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...]
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17:33<Chrill>Bjarni and peter1138, i just googled xD
17:34<@Bjarni>should that make it better?
17:34-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F548E3.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:36<ln->mr. zuHause is right, jpeg is not for screenshots!
17:37<Sacro>nor is your mum
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17:38<Patrick`>custom font
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17:57<Chrill>Bjarni, it doesn't make it better, it just makes it easier to blame Sacro for something he never actually did
17:59<Sacro>?
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>why would you go through all that trouble when you could just blame sacro for anything he did
18:00<Sacro>:(
18:01<@Bjarni>Chrill: why would you blame Sacro for that jpg?
18:01<@Bjarni>for once I actually side with Sacro
18:01<@Bjarni>your statement makes no sense
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18:01<@Bjarni>if we blame Sacro for something then it should make sense to blame Sacro
18:05<Chrill>Bjarni, check out the bug report I just.. reported.. in the bugs..
18:05<Chrill>thing..
18:06<Chrill>I can recreate that without even having to think, really
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18:11<+glx>Chrill: please provide the crash.dmp too
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18:14<SmatZ>ah, Chrill is here
18:14<SmatZ>:-x
18:14<Chrill>the crash.dmp is auto-generated, yes?
18:14<+glx>yes
18:15<Chrill>kk, one sec
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18:17<ln->http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1093/28820nn9.jpg
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18:22<Chrill>There we go, glx
18:23<SmatZ>hmm it can have something to do with your custom title screen
18:23<SmatZ>btw, pngs are way better than jpgs
18:23<+glx>what's wrong with ctrl-s?
18:24<Chrill>SmatZ, the pic quality is due to me shrinking it, not due to jpg use
18:24<SmatZ>doesn't work in title screen
18:24<Chrill>and yes, that
18:24<@Bjarni>goodnight
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18:24<SmatZ>and it is still 1,2MB in size :)
18:24<Chrill>buttcrap
18:24<+glx>open console and type "screenshot no_con" IIRC
18:24<Chrill>i mean.. oh
18:24<Chrill>Well I was not aware of that, sorry. Let me try and recreate it without the title screen
18:25<Chrill>Can i simply remove opntitle.dat?
18:25<SmatZ>you can (but backup your current file :)
18:25<Chrill>Hm... I think I encountered another problem
18:25<Chrill>Or rather
18:25<Chrill>the bug being something else than reported
18:26<Chrill>Someone get an opntitle.dat using NewGRFs.. Then open the NewGRF list, anywhere, in title screen too.. When closing, it will crash
18:26<Chrill>as it would (in older versions) simply remove all GRFs from the title screen
18:26<+glx>known, don't use newgrfs in intro
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18:31<+glx>and your bug is related to that
18:32<Chrill>Yeah, exactly
18:32<+glx>when you close the window, the current (as in the one in your cfg) grf list is restored
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18:34<Chrill>yeah, and that's where the crash occurs now (did not in pre-0.6.0)
18:34<+glx>pre-0.6.0 didn't have action F support
18:34<Chrill>not that I know what Action F is but you're the expert, im just the player :P
18:34<+glx>and action F support needs loading grfs in intro
18:35<+glx>action F is townname
18:35<Chrill>ooh
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but there should be a newgrf sandbox for the title screen game...
18:36<Eddi|zuHause2>or the main menu
18:38<Chrill>Crash is not occuring when using an opntitle.dat without NewGRFs :P
18:40<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: very hard to do as grfs are loaded globally
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, the game could use a general overhaul of global variables... [i.e. pass references instead]
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>with that, you could quite easily generate a new "game environment"
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>without destroying the existing one
18:49<Eddi|zuHause2>it would also remove the need of some... "hacks"... (like the existance of "_patches" and "_patches_newgame")
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>you could instead have "running_game.patches", "new_game.patches" and "title_game.patches"
18:51<@peter1138>instead of two, have three!
18:51<@peter1138>no need for title_game
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>no, they could be the same, just called differently
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>that's the fun with passing references, you can call them differently in each function
18:52*SmatZ references -> pointers :)
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>"pointers" [in the C++ sense] are just an implementation of "references" [in the abstract sense]
18:54<SmatZ>how do you call "void f(int &x)" then?
18:55<Eddi|zuHause2>"references in the C++ sense?"
18:55<Eddi|zuHause2>[as opposed to the abstract concept]
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18:56<SmatZ>that's not really practical :-x
18:56<Eddi|zuHause2>the only difference is that one makes it possible to get low-level access to the representation of the reference [which might not be a good idea in all cases]
18:57<@peter1138>Neither is passing pointers around everywhere.
18:59<Eddi|zuHause2>i just wanted to say that global variables are bad... not that the other ways would be better in all cases
19:00<Eddi|zuHause2>and that having references to an environment would make it quite trivial to create sandbox environments
19:02<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: I do not agree with you, but you are free to try to rewrite OTTD to use references / pointers instead of global variables ... then we can measure the speed of program and the code readability
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19:11<Chrill>Well im off
19:11<Chrill>cya lot, thanks for the help with finding the problem, glx
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19:50<Dr_Jekyll>hi...
19:51<Dr_Jekyll>i'm a bit confused
19:51<Dr_Jekyll>i was searchin the forum for a while but i can't find a answer for my question
19:51<+glx>just ask here
19:52<Dr_Jekyll>is there a "set up daylength option" for the current beta 0.6.0b5?
19:53<+glx>no
19:53<+glx>you need to apply a patch and compile
19:53<Dr_Jekyll>hm...grml...my coding knowldge is as worst as my english
19:54<Dr_Jekyll>but there is a posibility to get this option back, do i understand right?
19:56<+glx>this option never been in openttd
19:56<Eddi|zuHause2>Dr_Jekyll: there is a custom build of Gonozal_VIII, including this patch
19:59<Dr_Jekyll>hm not in openttd? i'm not sure which version it was i just remember that an option like this "exists"
19:59<+glx>miniin had it IIRC
20:00<+glx>and it is in other integrated builds
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20:04<Dr_Jekyll>ok thx...then i have to take an other version than 0.6.0beta5...
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20:12<wleader>I've got what is probably a dumb question. I've been searching tt-forums and googling for a while and I figure I must not know what terms I should be using in my search...
20:14-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-108-75.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
20:14<wleader>Anyway, I'm trying to figure out how to make the build name a value of my choice. Example, If I download the trunk source code and build it, It says it is OpenTTD r12350M, but if I download a tag and build that it says OpenTTD 0.6.0-beta5.
20:14<wleader>There must be some automatic method by which this is done, because I am sure its not set with each commit. I'm wondering how to manipulate that.
20:22<Eddi|zuHause2>revision numbers are taken from the svn checkouts (needs svn command line tools), releases should automatically make that setting
20:22<Eddi|zuHause2>although i never built a release before...
20:23<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, ./configure --help
20:24<wleader>except that I am using windows....
20:24<wleader>configure don't like me.
20:25<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a rev.cpp.in from which rev.cpp gets generated
20:25<Eddi|zuHause2>which then gets the revision string
20:26<Rubidium>just diff a release
20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>@openttd commit 11089
20:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: Commit by rubidium :: r11089 /trunk (15 files in 4 dirs) (2007-09-12 07:11:48 UTC)
20:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: -Codechange: add revision detection to MSVC.
20:26<wleader>ah, now that I can work with.
20:27<Rubidium>although that's only for releases and not for svn versions
20:28<Rubidium>for the other I'm too far from the source code to actually check right now
20:28<wleader>At the very least I know now where to look.
20:29<Rubidium>well, it's not the right way for non-releases
20:30<Rubidium>tinkering with rev.cpp.in (and ottdres.rc.in) is I guess
20:30<+glx>wleader: just edit rev.cpp.in and add something like "-wleader" at the end of the revision string
20:30<wleader>I'm testing modifications to rev.cpp.in right now.
20:32<Tekky>Can I apply a patch file to the trunk with GNU patch? I seem to be only able to patch individual files with GNU patch.
20:32<Eddi|zuHause2>patch -p0 -i <diff-file>
20:32<Tekky>thx :)
20:32<Eddi|zuHause2>or -p1 when it's a git-diff
20:33<+glx>or cd src && patch ... if the patch author diffed the wrong dir :)
20:34<Tekky>should the directory "trunk" be part of the directory tree used by the diff file?
20:36<Tekky>ah, trunk/src should be the root of the directory structure used by the diff?
20:36<+glx>trunk should be the root
20:38<Tekky>ah, thx
20:40*SmatZ is confused... can gethostbyname() ever return an IPv6 address? I can't find any documentation stating that, but even ping (from 2007) assumes it will return only IPv4 address... thanks if anyone has experience :)
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20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a feeling that you are the closest to an ipv6 expert we
20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>have
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20:44<SmatZ>ok, thanks :)
20:44<SmatZ>I think Sacro was writing an IPv6 masterserver patch...
20:44<Sacro>was he?
20:44<SmatZ>wasn't he?
20:45<Sacro>i think SmatZ needs to use moar tab
20:45<SmatZ>!logs
20:45<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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20:50<Tekky>damn, I get an assertion error when trying to use GNU Patch 2.5.9 with Win32 :(
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20:52<Tekky>is there maybe a better port of GNU Patch for Windows? I am using this one: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/patch.htm
20:52<+glx>it should work
20:53<Tekky>ah, it gives the following note: On MS-Windows, the patchfile must be a text file, i.e. CR-LF must be used as line endings. A file with LF may give the error: "Assertion failed, hunk, file patch.c, line 343," unless the option '--binary' is given.
20:53<SmatZ>:-)
20:53<Tekky>I wouldn't say it was ported properly if it cannot handle unix-style line endings.....
20:54<+glx>yeah silly port :)
20:54<Eddi|zuHause2>unix2dos <diff-file> | patch -p0
20:54<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i guess unix2dos doesn
20:54<Eddi|zuHause2>'t output to console
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20:58<Tekky>hmmmm, is there maybe some other good patch program for Windows?
20:59<+glx>I use msys
20:59<Sacro>gnuwin32
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21:00<wleader>I'm pretty fond of Tortoise SVN's built in patch tools.
21:00<Tekky>Sacro: that is what I just used and it produced this assertion error becasuse it cannot handle unix-style line endings.
21:00<Tekky>becasuse = because
21:01<Tekky>I have heard that Tortoise SVN's patch tools were broken, that's why I don't want to use them :)
21:01<+glx>http://glx.dnsalias.net:8080/openttd/patch.exe.zip <-- try this one
21:02<+glx>it's the msys one
21:02<Tekky>thx glx
21:02<wleader>'broken', or 'works differently than expected'?
21:02<+glx>broken as it doesn't understand all patches formats
21:03<Tekky>I think there were incompatibility issues with other patch tools and Tortoise SVN patch
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21:06<Tekky>I think I will install the entire msys :)
21:07<Tekky>sounds interesting :)
21:08<SmatZ>how do you compile on windows? do you have to install cygwin?
21:08<SmatZ>or are there different ways :)
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21:13<Tekky>I don't think OpenTTD works in the cygwin UNIX emulation environment. Instead, it works with MinGW or Microsoft Visual Studio C++.
21:13<wleader>Personally I like using MSVC++ Express. See: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_Express
21:14<SmatZ>interesting, thanks
21:14<Tekky>wleader: I use Visual C++ too, but I'm also very impressed with MinGW :)
21:14<wleader>alright, Its sleepy time. Goodnight all.
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21:17<fjb>Hello
21:18<SmatZ>hello fjb
21:21<Tekky>lol, msys only offers bzip2 to be downloaded in the bzip2 format. So you must already have bzip2 installed in order to install bzip2?
21:22<Sacro>Tekky: indeed
21:23<SmatZ>yeah :) like when I wanted to download dmg extractor, that was in dmg format :)
21:23<SmatZ>dmg2iso I think
21:23<SmatZ>Tekky: do you want me to send you some files?
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21:24<Tekky>SmatZ: no thanks, I am still deciding what programs I want to use.
21:25<fjb>Any good os ships with preinstalled bzip2. :-)
21:27<Tekky>how can I apply a patch with the official SVN client?
21:27<Tekky>fjb: Hehe, yes, I should maybe also change to using linux :)
21:27<Tekky>is KDE or GNOME better?
21:27*fjb didn't mean Linux...
21:28<Tekky>fjb: MacOS?
21:28*fjb prefers KDE, but that is a matter of personal taste.
21:28<fjb>Almost but nor really MacOS. But MacOS got some parts of that OS.
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22:00<SmatZ>night
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22:13<Tekky>glx: Thanks, with msys, patch worked perfectly!
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23:05<Tekky>Hmmmm, I got OpenTTD now to compile properly with Visual C++ Express 2008, but openttd.exe does not run properly without giving an error message at startup. If I use the pre-compiled openttd.exe in the same directory, however, it works perfectly. So something seems wrong with the compiled OpenTTD.exe. Was anyone else able to compile recently with Visual Studio 2008?
23:06<+glx>what error?
23:06<Sacro>glx: that's no fun
23:06<Sacro>you shoudl try and debug it first
23:08<Tekky>just a moment, I am testing a later build of OpenTTD, maybe it will work.
23:10<Tekky>strange, this later build seems to work, I am trying to get michi_cc's YAPP PBS patch to compile under Visual C++.
23:10<Tekky>which directories do I have to copy to my OpenTTD directory?
23:10<Tekky>openttd.exe must be copied and all directories under bin? Anything else?
23:11<+glx>just move openttd.exe from objs/win32/(release|debug) to bin
23:12<+glx>and run it from there
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23:16<Tekky>hmmmm, it seems that r12187, which is used by michi_cc's PBS patch, gives me an error message on startup if compiled on windows. However, the latest SVN revision seems to work.
23:18<Tekky>so it seems I must either use MinGW or must adapt michi_cc's PBS patch to work with the latest revision......
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23:21<Tekky>I think I will go for the first solution :)
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 10 00:00:16 2008