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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-23

---Logopened Sun Mar 23 00:00:13 2008
---Daychanged Sun Mar 23 2008
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01:38<Eddi|zuHause2>haha, it's completely white outside ;)
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02:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12397 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1856]: enumify widget number for time tables. Patch by Phil Sophus.
03:34-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host220-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
03:34<Wolf01>hello
03:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12398 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange [FS#1770]: Move toolbar related code to it's own little neighbourhood. Based on a patch by Dominik.
03:35<@peter1138>Hee
03:38-!-planetmaker [~chatzilla@Fcf06.f.ppp-pool.de] has joined #openttd
03:40<Wolf01>OMG O_O http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764
03:44<mrfrenzy>hi wolf01
03:44<mrfrenzy>If you like it I suggest you do some encouraging in the thread
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03:45*Rubidium gives it a 10% chance to succeed (and that's probably even too optimistic)
03:46<Wolf01>that guy is a legend... if only he can finish all his good patches
03:47-!-Ammler [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-45-130.adslplus.ch] has joined #openttd
03:52<@peter1138>Hmm, proper snow :o
03:52-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
03:52<yorick>hello
03:55<Wolf01>hi
04:16-!-jez [andreis@87-194-212-214.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
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04:16<jez9999>@seen Bjarni
04:16<@DorpsGek>jez9999: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 11 hours, 28 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Bjarni> lol
04:16<yorick>hello
04:16<yorick>oh noes
04:25<jez9999>hmm
04:25<jez9999>what is the purpose of INVALID_STRING_ID?
04:25<yorick>being invalid
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04:26<jez9999>seems like it gets passed to things like ShowErrorMessage
04:26<yorick>all these things have an INVALID type, so they added one to STRING_ID aswell
04:27<jez9999>i cant seem to find a string in english.txt that matches up with it
04:27<jez9999>so im wondering what it prints out
04:27<yorick>nothing
04:30<yorick>or maybe it asserts
04:33<jez9999>hmm
04:33<jez9999>does seem to just cause a blank error
04:33<jez9999>curious
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06:29<yorick>!seen LordAzamath
06:29<yorick>@seen LordAzamath
06:29<@DorpsGek>yorick: LordAzamath was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 22 hours, 6 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <LordAzamath> (::)::(::)
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06:38<jez9999>hi
06:38<jez9999>i need to create a dynamic array for an OpenTTD patch i'm developing
06:38<jez9999>i'm going do be, during a loop, adding certain entries to it
06:38<jez9999>i'm not going to be able to know how many entries there will be, so i need to be able to keep adding to it dynamically
06:39<yorick>oh
06:39<jez9999>what's the standard way of doing this in Openttd?
06:39<jez9999>do we have some dynamic array class we use in C++? is there some example dynamic array code you can point me to?
06:39<yorick>using a c++ way
06:39<Maedhros>std::list, probably
06:39<jez9999>is that typically used in the openttd codebase?
06:39<jez9999>im wanting to stick to the openttd coding style
06:40<Tefad>http://adrinael.net/containerchoice.png
06:40<Maedhros>it's used in a few places, yes
06:40<Maedhros>but then so is malloc / realloc
06:41<jez9999>Tefad: hmm interesting
06:42<jez9999>i come out with vector or deque, for that
06:42<jez9999>i guess it might be easier to get help on list, tho
06:42<jez9999>more people are likely to use it
06:43<Tefad>list is a doubly linked array
06:43<Tefad>it's good for when you're processing arbitrary amounts of data
06:44<Tefad>say.. you query a database and you could have 5 results come back.. or 5000...
06:44<Tefad>list is good for that
06:44<jez9999>or... someone drags over a matrix of 4 squares... or 400
06:44<Tefad>perhaps..
06:45<Tefad>if you know the size of the area before you populate memory, you should use something like deque or vector
06:45<Rubidium>use a pool
06:45<jez9999>not really, because im not storing info on every square
06:45<jez9999>only squares that fulfil a certain criterion
06:46<jez9999>im building that store up as i go along
06:46<Rubidium>then you want a map of some sort and not a list/array/vector
06:47<jez9999>that assumes i need to find an element by key
06:47<jez9999>do i?
06:47<Rubidium>well, if you can't use a pool then yes
06:47<jez9999>why cant i use a pool?
06:48<Tefad>key or index?
06:48<Rubidium>you said "not really" after I said to use a pool
06:48<jez9999>i was responding to Tefad
06:48<jez9999><Tefad> if you know the size of the area before you populate memory,...
06:48<Tefad>if you're building something by hand and you don't know how many you're going to end up with, use list as intermediate
06:48<Tefad>then you can pass it as whatever you want
06:48<jez9999>i must confess ive never heard of a deque
06:48<jez9999>what is that?
06:49<Tefad>double ended queue
06:51<jez9999>might that be better than a list for this purpose
06:51<jez9999>i think in C#, the List<> basically is a deque
06:51<jez9999>in fact im not sure what the difference between a list and queue is; i always thought List preserved order too
06:51<Tefad>lists have great use of pointers
06:52<Tefad>deque/vector usually allocated contiguous memory
06:52<jez9999>ok i'll go for a std::list then
06:52<jez9999>next thing: in C#, i happily dont worry about this
06:52<Tefad>lists have more memory overhead
06:52<jez9999>in c++; do i need to worry about memory management when using std::list?
06:52<Tefad>vectors/deques suck when you keep growing your memory size.
06:52<jez9999>what's the process of using it
06:52<jez9999>yeah i'll use a list
06:52<Tefad>(lists allocate each element separately)
06:53<jez9999>what's the c++ overall process
06:53<Tefad>jez9999: you can use a list just like you would use a vector, it's transparent
06:53<jez9999>in C# it's basically new List<>... add stuff... then forget
06:53<Tefad>it's a basic container
06:53<jez9999>in c++ is there a destructor or something you must call?
06:54<Tefad>not unless you're doing fancy stuff
06:54<jez9999>fancy stuff?
06:54<jez9999>i always thought in C++ you had to manually dispose of objects to avoid mem leaks
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06:58<jez9999>anyone?
07:00<Maedhros>if you allocate them with new, then you have to delete them
07:01<Maedhros>in the case of things like containers, the memory they allocate will be freed when the container goes out of scope and the destructor is called
07:01-!-Keir [~blah@thespinneys.plus.com] has joined #openttd
07:04<Keir>hey
07:04<Keir>does anyone know where I can rent an openttd server from?
07:06<jez9999>i'll rent you one
07:06<jez9999>$100/mo
07:06<Keir>ooo
07:06<Keir>ah
07:06<jez9999>:-)
07:06<Keir>i'm sure i can find one cheaper :P
07:06<jez9999>$50/mo
07:06<Keir>$25 and u got a deal :P
07:07<jez9999>paypal's fees will be that much :-)
07:07<jez9999>god i hate paypal
07:07<Keir>lol no they wont
07:07<jez9999>what do you want it for anyway
07:07<Keir>umm
07:07<Keir>to host an openttd server with :)
07:08<jez9999>i know but do you have a bunch of people who definitely wanna play on it?
07:08<jez9999>or are you gonna put it online and hope for the best? :-)
07:08<Keir>well there's me and a mate who play regularaly and other than that, to hope for the best :)
07:09<jez9999>hmm
07:09<jez9999>i wonder whether anyone's gotten the openttd server working on CentOS...
07:09<mrfrenzy>why should it not
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07:11<jez9999>there's no downloadable RPM build of openttd
07:11<jez9999>:-(
07:11<jez9999>just a horrid .deb
07:11-!-Keir [~blah@thespinneys.plus.com] has joined #openttd
07:11<Keir>i hate irc
07:11<Keir>so can u rent one?
07:11<jez9999>im just investigating, Keir
07:11<Keir>ah ok thnx
07:11<jez9999>i'll need to install it on CentOS
07:11<jez9999>wonder if anyone's done it
07:12<jez9999>what version of the server do you want
07:12<Keir>0.6.0 beta 5 preferably
07:12<jez9999>hmm that'll need compiling
07:12<jez9999>hmmm
07:12<mrfrenzy>jez9999: just compile it, it's a breeze
07:12<jez9999>on 'doze, i had to download tons of stuff to compile it :-)
07:12<Rubidium>jez9999: that's because nobody ever has been bothered enough to make rpms
07:12<jez9999>not sure about ni
07:12<jez9999>nix
07:13<mrfrenzy>atleast on debian you would only need to install the build-essential package and you have all tools needed to build it
07:15<Maedhros>Keir: i'm sure you could get a good deal from orudge (zernebok.com) :)
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07:18<yorick>keir: you know about FREE server hosting services, myottd.net?
07:19<Keir>nope? lol
07:20<yorick>now you do :-)
07:20<Keir>the site doesnt load lol
07:20<Keir>oh wait it does
07:20<yorick>but it's laggy
07:20<yorick>its the same server where the ottd runs upon
07:20<jez9999>does it let you run whatever build you want?
07:20<yorick>dunno
07:22<Keir>it doesnt have beta5 :(
07:22<yorick>hmm...jez is very cheap aswell :)
07:49-!-pm_away is now known as planetmaker
07:51<jez9999>weird
07:51<jez9999>my server is online
07:51<jez9999>i can connect to it via telnet
07:51<jez9999>yet openttd just says 'SEVRER OFFLINE', seems to make no attempt to connect when i add it
07:52<yorick>firewall?
07:53<jez9999>i enabled it, and can connect to other servers
07:56<jez9999>i dont get it
07:56<jez9999>it's made apparently no attempt to connect to it
07:56<jez9999>the server is accepting connections just fine
07:56<jez9999>does my server need to be in the list that openTTD gets its "Find servers" from before it will connect to a server?
07:58<yorick>no
07:58<yorick>only when server_advertise is on
08:05<jez9999>according to Wireshark, it's not even sending out a UDP packet!
08:05<jez9999>when i click on refresh server
08:05<jez9999>i wonder if that whole 'add server' functionality is kaput
08:09<yorick>maybe company_info is done using a tcp packet?
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08:25<jez9999>how often is the master server list refreshed
08:25<jez9999>for openttd?
08:26-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host61-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
08:28<Rubidium>in what sense?
08:29<Rubidium>new servers: immediatelly, servers going away that notify the ms: immediatelly, servers going away without telling it: within 5 minutes, updating the game stats: every 5 minutes.
08:29-!-Osai is now known as Osai`off
08:29<Rubidium>client rerequesting the server list: whenever the user clicks the button (or opens the window)
08:48*yorick wants to see extra flags so he can go on with flags in client list
08:48<yorick>:)
08:52-!-Osai`off is now known as Osai
09:00<yorick>I would say that [FS# 1868] is a feature request instead of a bug
09:07<yorick>Jez9999: was it you that was working on the train-tracktype-upgrade?
09:08<yorick>I said something like it was already done, didn't I?
09:08<yorick>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1859 <-- there is your proof
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09:13<yorick>the difficulty options window lacks a close button
09:16<Volley>i just tested "Timetable based separation patch" ( needed some manual merging with my YAPP patched version), played around, had fun, but basically i think all this seperation stuff could go way more easily... shouldn't a "wait until full loaded or other train of shared order list arrives"- option in the train orders do?
09:17<+glx>yorick: there's a cancel button
09:17<yorick>which isn't on the top left, while I like buttons to be on the top left
09:17<yorick>its just...consistency that's missing
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09:18<+glx>there was a close button, but it has been removed because it confused many players
09:18<yorick>every other window has a close button
09:18-!-Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-185-94.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
09:18<+glx>no you have an explicit apply or dismiss
09:19<yorick>then remove the cancel button and readd the close button
09:20<yorick>even confirmation windows have a close button ;)
09:21-!-Scotch [~Scotch@d83-182-168-42.cust.tele2.be] has joined #openttd
09:21<yorick>don't you have an explicit apply or dismiss on confirmation windows?
09:24-!-LordAzamath [~questionm@ip52.cab21.ltln.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
09:25<yorick>LordAzamath! You've returned!
09:25<LordAzamath>almost
09:25*yorick goes celebrating and dancing
09:25<LordAzamath>ALMOST
09:26*yorick presses pause button for music
09:26<yorick>how do you mean, 'almost'?
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10:38<Pinchiukas>I tell a truck to go to a lorry station near a sawmill that produces goods, load up some boxes, go to a town and unload them, but it doesn't get any money for that, what gives?
10:39<yorick>have you set overload?
10:39<yorick>err...transfer*
10:39<yorick>darn translations
10:39<Pinchiukas>set what?
10:40<yorick>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Orders
10:45<shodan>Pinchiukas: easiest thing is not to set 'unload'
10:47<Pinchiukas>ok now everything seems fine, but there is a bunch of goods standing in the station
10:48<yorick>which means your station didn't accept goods
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11:03<Pinchiukas>yorick: why?
11:04<Maedhros>because you don't have any houses near the station that accept goods
11:09-!-Zavior [~zavior@d195-237-7-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:09<Pinchiukas>ok, why would the local authority not allow me to build a bus station or a lorry station?
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11:15<yorick>hmm....we need official openttd MP servers!
11:17-!-Zaviori [~zavior@d195-237-7-167.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
11:19<Pinchiukas>yep
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11:29<lestat_spanish>hi all
11:29<lestat_spanish>hola a todos
11:30<yorick>and now you appear here?
11:30<yorick>yes, people can remove parts that connect stations to make them appear joined afterwards
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11:31<yorick>btw, this channel is english only
11:31<ln>yes, and may i also say that this channel is ENGLISH ONLY
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11:32<RichK67>hi
11:33<yorick>hello RichK
11:33<yorick>I've looked at the bits for houses
11:34<RichK67>i would guess i could steal bit 15 of m2... since i cant see there being > 32768 towns
11:34<yorick>@calc 2048*2048/32768
11:34<@DorpsGek>yorick: 128
11:34<yorick>@calc 2048*2048
11:34<@DorpsGek>yorick: 4194304
11:34<yorick>ah yeah, it would probably fit
11:35<yorick>lets see, m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated
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11:35<RichK67>but ill do whatever Rubidium suggests, since otherwise ill get complaints - heck, i get them anyway
11:35<Eddi|zuHause2><yorick> @calc 2048*2048/32768 <- what exactly should this calculation yield? "average 'square tiles' per town"?
11:35<yorick>if not activated, m7 bits 7..4 are free
11:36<RichK67>cant assume its not activated
11:36<yorick>probably
11:36<yorick>m6 bit 2 is free if newhouses is activated
11:36<yorick>you only need one?
11:37<RichK67>yup, and m6 bit 2 would be very nice (its the one im using elsewhere)
11:37<RichK67>if newhouse.... bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3
11:37<RichK67>m6 bit 2 used
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11:38<yorick>you could use 2 different bits?
11:38<lestat_spanish>
11:38<lestat_spanish>As a question can I do to have two separate stations late the same station?
11:38<RichK67>yeah - id just switch which bit to look at based on tile type
11:38<yorick>lestat_spanish: I already answered it to you
11:39<RichK67>slightly ugly, but my philosophy is prove it works first, then make it pretty
11:39<yorick>but, can't you switch between m6 bit 2 if newhouses is activated and m7 bit 4 if not?
11:40<RichK67>m6 bit 2 is *used* when newhouses in use
11:40<lestat_spanish>
11:40<lestat_spanish>Forgiveness was in the bathroom and was not English
11:40<lestat_spanish>I am using the translator google
11:40<yorick>ah, ignored that lestat guy, now, m6 bit 2 is not, landscape.html says
11:41<yorick>m6 :* If newhouses is activated
11:41<yorick> o bits 7..3 : Current animation frame
11:41<yorick> o bit 2 : free
11:41<RichK67>not in the docs im looking at... (ex-trunk)
11:41<yorick>you might want to try trunk
11:42<lestat_spanish>~yorick~ Do not be so wrong
11:42<RichK67>just synced to trunk... here is the quote:
11:42<RichK67>m6 :
11:42<RichK67>
11:42<RichK67> * If newhouses is activated
11:42<RichK67> o bits 7..2 : Current animation frame (bits 5..0); bit 6 in m3
11:42<RichK67> * Standard behaviour
11:43<RichK67> o bits 7..2 : lift position (for houses type 04 and 05)
11:43<RichK67> * bits 1..0 : tropic zone specifier
11:43<lestat_spanish>It does good
11:43<yorick>wait-yes-animation frames got extended
11:43<lestat_spanish>Someone throws a game?
11:44<yorick>@openttd commit 12347
11:44<@DorpsGek>yorick: Commit by frosch :: r12347 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2008-03-06 14:21:10 UTC)
11:44<@DorpsGek>yorick: -Feature(ette): Increase house animation frame number from 32 to 128.
11:45<yorick>grr
11:48<yorick>which basically means nothing is free when newhouses are enabled
11:48<RichK67>yup, although i am sure that m2 bit 15 wont exactly be missed for a very very long time
11:49<yorick>but it is possible to build that many towns on a 2048 map
11:50<yorick>and what if it will go being missed?
11:50<RichK67>possible, but highly improbable... as you showed, you would have to have only 128 tiles per town ie 16x8 max. call it 11 squared: minimum separation is more than that
11:51<lestat_spanish>87.223.193.135
11:51<RichK67>and that assumes no space lost to edge tiles, etc
11:51<lestat_spanish>Someone throws a game?
11:51<yorick>hmm...yes
11:52<yorick>and with the extra large maps patch?
11:52<yorick>**future**
11:52<RichK67>doesnt increase the surface area beyond 2kx2k
11:52<yorick>I think it does
11:53<yorick>it makes 4096*4096 possible
11:54<RichK67>there are two versions. One with "reasonable" limits (max 8192 map, max 4 Mi tiles (2^22)) that aims for trunk
11:55<yorick>and that makes 8192x8192 possible
11:55<RichK67>no - work it out
11:55<yorick>weren't you saying something about thinking about future?
11:55<RichK67>2^22 = 2048x2048
11:55<RichK67>yeah
11:55<RichK67>i know
11:55<yorick>be carefull
11:55<RichK67>its obviously not an adequate solution
11:57<Wolf01>hi RichK67, I noticed the screens of your new work, really nice, congratulations, I hope you'll finish it :D
11:57<RichK67>its an experiment - it might not fly
11:58-!-|Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@e28236.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
11:58<RichK67>but it does look seriously cool though ;) :)
11:58<RichK67>just breaks a lot of things ;)
11:58<yorick>m3 bits 5432 seem exploitable
11:58<lestat_spanish>bye
11:58<yorick>bye
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11:59<RichK67>once a house is complete, m3 is fully used for date of build
11:59<RichK67>bah
11:59<RichK67>m5
12:00<yorick>I don't know how, but landscape #2 says "bit is accessed, but does not really have a meaning (e.g. owner of clear land is always OWNER_NONE)"
12:00<RichK67>m3 bit 5 : bit 6 of current animation frame (see m6)
12:00<RichK67>m3 bits 4..0 : triggers activated (newhouses)
12:00<yorick>maybe the triggers could be compressed?
12:01<yorick>I don't know though
12:03<yorick>you could decrease animation counter to 49
12:04<RichK67>i would rather add m8, than damage someone else's developments
12:06<yorick>then m8 would be a bool?
12:06<RichK67>nah add a full byte, and then i would probably relocate all snow/desert related bits into it, so m8 represents all climate related info
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12:07<yorick>how does ttdpatch cope with extra bits needed?
12:07<RichK67>this is not for patch... and wont work on it
12:07<yorick>that's right, but I'm just curious
12:08<RichK67>afaik, patch cannot load any OTTD game, so it cant handle what we have already
12:09<yorick>no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it, also by extending the map array someway?
12:10<RichK67>no idea... ive never really paid much/any attention to their internals. its enough hassle trying to cope with the mess of newgrf
12:11<Eddi|zuHause2>my "educated guess" is that [savegame wise] new data is stored in new chunks, to keep upwards compatibility for old versions that cannot understand this chunk
12:12<yorick>I guess adding m8 would solve most of the problems RickK has
12:13<Eddi|zuHause2>what are you trying to do anyway?
12:13<yorick>then relocate density, ground type in it
12:13<yorick>he's finding a free bit for houses
12:13<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, i figured that, but why?
12:14<yorick>to have tropical, arctic, temperate in one map
12:14<RichK67>yeah - as i say, there is climate info splattered all over the place - eg. snow is m4 bit 3..0=C in rails, m5 bit 4..2=4 in clear, m3 bit 7 in roads, etc
12:14<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: i have a prototype working, but houses are a pain, as they use all bits
12:14<yorick>we could have snow-aware default towns aswell
12:15<RichK67>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764
12:15<yorick>and m6 bits 1..0
12:16<yorick>I would say: go for m8!
12:17<RichK67>my experiment expands the tropiczone to m6 0..2, where 0=temperate, 1=arctic, 3=toyland, 4=tropic normal, 5=tropic desert, 6=tropic rain
12:17<Eddi|zuHause2>http://gonozalviii.go.funpic.de/openttd/terrain.png <- have you considered these?
12:18<yorick>do you need 3 bits for that?
12:18<RichK67>that looks nice
12:19-!-Maedhros [~jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:19<RichK67>its an experiment - i needed a way to store more climate info, and we already had 4 states available using the common-to-all tropiczone, so i just added one bit and redefined it
12:20<RichK67>m8 would be nice, and using that 8 bit version would be cool
12:20<RichK67>i could then make old and new entirely switchable: use old settings, or use m8
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not sure what a switch like this should achieve
12:23<yorick>I'm going for m8
12:24<RichK67>keeping some people happy? one side effect of the all-climate terrain is that some newgrfs that are climate dependant will get broken by it, as the TTDP newgrf wont be able to query the new climate settings correctly
12:24<yorick>we could extend to toyland aswell
12:24<yorick>hmm
12:24<yorick>OpenGFX does so
12:24<RichK67>yeah, i noticed that - have climate as 0..2, with 4=toyland
12:25<RichK67>opengfx does sprite replacement globally, i have to keep all graphics in memory at the same time
12:25<yorick>grf's should be able to define 2 versions of the snow sprite: one to be used for temperate, other one for arctic snow
12:25<RichK67>its already got temperate snow working
12:26<Eddi|zuHause2>apo'strophe's 'should not be abu'sed
12:26<yorick>I'm used to it
12:26<RichK67>pedants untie
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>it has nothing to do with "pedants"... it's occasionally a big problem for non-native speakers to do on-the-fly error-compensation
12:27<yorick>another problem: what industries should go where? what cargo should towns accept? which vehicles could be used where?
12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: all newgrf
12:29<yorick>should water & food be available anywhere? or only to be built at depots in tropic or arctic zone?
12:29<RichK67>yup, my current compromise is that you get the buildings and industries of whatever is the "base" climate you select - so you either get a temperate/arctic/tropic industry set.... or, someone nice could actually produce an all-climates-industries newgrf :)
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: the default climates should not be changed, only the possibility of a combination opened
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12:30<yorick>that 2 answers can't really be combined ^^
12:30<yorick>one is talking about base climate, other about "mixed" climate
12:30<RichK67>i did once ask in the TTDP forum, but they werent too receptive to something that would only work in OTTD
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>hihi ;)
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12:31<RichK67>the "base" climate is the one you select when you generate.... it then creates the world with that climate's attributes, but with the map painted in the other climates' terrain as appropriate
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12:32<RichK67>its just an experiment, so anything is up for change though
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12:32<RichK67>my preference would be to have all climates available, all houses of all climate available, all industries, etc... but one step at a time
12:33<RichK67>and then, once it is working, you can always restrict the map back to one climate if desired
12:34<RichK67>ie. the current climate selections are a subset of the whole world climate
12:35<yorick>and how are maps supposed to be generated?
12:35<yorick>what zone should go where?
12:35<yorick>north-to-south?
12:36<RichK67>have you looked at my screenshots?
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: those are map generator options, they should all be user-adjustable
12:37<yorick>the North pole is arctic, Northen hemisphere is temperate, the southern one is desert, and the south pole is a secret toyland pinguing utopia?
12:37<RichK67>ive generated the climate zones using the perlin random noise algorithms, but done in large swathes, rather than the finer terrain detail
12:37<RichK67>no toyland in the auto generator
12:37<yorick>hehe
12:38<Eddi|zuHause2>civ has a lot of generators for climate zones
12:38<RichK67>its more a concept of concentric rings - it doesnt make sense to have arctic next to tropic without some temperate inbetween, so thats what ive created
12:38<RichK67>but look at the screens
12:38<yorick>I did
12:40<RichK67>ok, ill just generate another random one, and post it
12:42<RichK67>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=88309
12:43<yorick>hmm
12:43<yorick>snow agains tropical
12:43<RichK67>snow in temperate against tropical ... a problem not yet resolved
12:43<RichK67>its not arctic snow
12:44<yorick>like desert against temperate
12:44<RichK67>yup, there are missing "transitions"
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12:44<RichK67>NB as i said earlier, its experimental (grrr... why do ppl expect completeness on prototypes!)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>i see no real problem with snow in tropical (assuming you get transition graphics at a later point)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe with different snow lines (-1 for arctic, +1 for tropic)
12:45<yorick>think real
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12:46<RichK67>already have that changing snowline - snowline in temperate is +1 relative to arctic
12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i noticed ;)
12:46<RichK67>yorick: my kilamanjaro has permanent icecap on the equator - its tropical
12:46<RichK67>mt not my
12:49<yorick>there is a tropical thing inbetween desert and rainforest, isn't there?
12:49<RichK67>personally, i would like to have arctic deserts (eg. Gobi), temperate deserts (Asian steppe in summer)
12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: that is calculated on-the-fly
12:49<RichK67>yes, TROPIC_NORMAL - ie grass
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>(if you mean the grass-desert transition)
12:50<yorick>yes
12:50<RichK67>grass-desert transition is only 1 tile of "mixed"
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: well, with 3 bits you have 8 terrain types at your disposal ;)
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12:51<RichK67>LA!
12:52<yorick>for a momen
12:52<yorick>t
12:52<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: also allow for newgrfs to specify what terrain number should mean something
12:52<yorick>he's taking a break
12:52<LordAzamath>a break.. gotchya
12:52<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: ? sorry what do you mean?
12:53<LordAzamath>RichK67: Did you get help from Zephyris?
12:53<yorick>bare rocks, do they exist?
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12:53<yorick>rocks have no density? ok, thanks
12:53<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: i mean for newgrfs to redefine terrain types
12:53<Eddi|zuHause2>to mean something other than desert, for example
12:53<Eddi|zuHause2>like swampland or something
12:54<DaleStan><yorick> no, I mean, I guess ttdpatch needs map array bits aswell someway, how do they do it <-- We allocate the various new arrays (L6, L7, L8) at runtime, if the config calls for it. And then use some magic I don't quite understand so all accesses to them are as fast and as efficient as if they were compile-time allocated.
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12:54<yorick>:D
12:55*LordAzamath got confuzzad
12:55<yorick>you have 8 arrays aswell?
12:55<RichK67>LA: check out the screenies :) Zephyris came up trumps http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764
12:57<DaleStan>Yep. L8 doesn't do much yet, though.
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: we only have two arrays
12:57<Eddi|zuHause2>the names m1..m7 are hysterical
12:57<yorick>6 and 7 added
12:57<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: this will probably not allow newgrfs to redefine anything terrain wise, as they are all geared to overwriting the core terrain graphics, not staying separately resident at the same time
12:58<LordAzamath>aaaaa...
12:58<LordAzamath>RichK67: Any full zoom screenies?
12:58<LordAzamath>I'm interested in transition sprites :P
12:58<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: i know, i mean the far future...
12:58<RichK67>yeah, but they dont show much
12:58<Eddi|zuHause2>once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away...
12:59<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: i would have to trap the attempted relocation, and then map over my load of the newterrain sprites
13:00<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: well, the main idea is to have anything you design now already as newgrf, to not have to add a second logic for newgrf terrains
13:01<Eddi|zuHause2>a newgrf would then provide a number of available terrains, terrain graphics for each terrain number, transition graphics, and maybe a few flags how the terrain should behave (do towns need food? water? etc.)
13:01<RichK67>no go. it will NOT be newgrf... it is and will be a specially prepared (and thus logically organised) sprite set... i need a strict, and predictable sprite order. newgrf does not provide that
13:03<LordAzamath>cu someday
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause2>why sprite order? you have n terrain sprites, and n/2*(n-1) transition sprites [nxn-triangular matrix]
13:05<Eddi|zuHause2>then some house magic to figure out the proper ground sprite for each house type, and wether it is allowed on this terrain (e.g. swampland might not support skyscrapers)
13:05<yorick>http://pastebin.com/m1614d48
13:06<RichK67>because normally tropical or arctic sprites are loaded in over the temperate tiles. i need to keep all 3 sets active at the same time. to ensure that i can do a simple relocation, i can just multiply the climate 0,1,2,3 by the number of sprites in the set... i dont have to go hunting through the mishmash of newgrf junk to find what i need
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't see the problem with that, you can still address the terrain sprites by the terrain index
13:08<yorick>it even allows for another rough/rocks ground thing
13:09<Eddi|zuHause2>what i am trying to say, is, if you design such a complex feature, make it as flexible as you can
13:09<RichK67>my point is that my design *is* simple... its newgrf that is the complicated, and not very useful thing here
13:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't see the advantage of hardcoding sprite numbers into the algorithm
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13:10<RichK67>and i cant wait for the whines from the TTDP side of "this doesnt work with my XYZ newgrf" ... tough, sometimes for progress, the old things must be sacrificed
13:11<RichK67>ok, Eddi|zuHause2, off you go and code your version then... the terrain sprites are hardcoded currently... so nothing changes
13:12<Eddi|zuHause2>solution to that is very simple: only add new terrain types if a newgrf specifies them, if someone wants to add a no-terrain-type-aware grf in the intended way, he can limit it to the climate it was designed for
13:12<RichK67>just take 1 look at sprites.h to see all the current hardcodign
13:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think i will do any kind of coding like that ;)
13:12<RichK67>getting other people's hypothetical newgrfs working is the lowest of priorities
13:12*yorick feels like not getting payed attention to
13:13<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: it doesn't have to be a priority. if the design is "right", it will "just work"
13:14<Eddi|zuHause2>i just want to point your attention to the fact that people WILL request this at some point
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13:15<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: noted. and known prior. personally i dont believe in overcomplicating designs just to try to prevent something becoming obsolete
13:16<RichK67>the simple approach here is to say... create an entirely new terrain system first... then worry about how old features can interface with it
13:16<Eddi|zuHause2>the transition: have only default climates -> allow all climates on the same map -> allow to chose to not have all but only few climates -> allow to add my own climate ... is not that far fetched
13:16<RichK67>yorick: nice m8 idea... copied to my notes, thanks
13:16<Eddi|zuHause2>i am not talking about old features... i am talking about next generation features
13:16<yorick>:)
13:17<RichK67>supporting old newgrfs that dont understand the new terrain system is not next gen
13:18<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but creating own terrain types is
13:18<Eddi|zuHause2>and creating new newgrfs that understand the new terrain system
13:19<yorick>newgrfs are further down the implementation list
13:20<RichK67>well, that should actually already work... the new terrain graphics are loaded as ordinary sprites below the newgrf boundary, so you should be able to do normal replacements of them.... adding attributes i dont know - eg. your swamp under skyscraper thing... that may be a loooong way down the list
13:20<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, i am thinking at least 3 steps in advance ;)
13:21<Eddi|zuHause2>i occasionally have problems with people not able to follow me ;)
13:21<RichK67>but the (my) core terrain graphics will not be loaded as newgrf... i need to be 100% sure where they are to make display of them predictable - that is how the existing system works
13:21<Eddi|zuHause2>but what is the problem with a "dynamic" lookup table?
13:21<yorick>waaay down the list
13:22<RichK67>for the moment it overcomplicates it when there is currently no need/demand
13:22<Eddi|zuHause2>well, when you touch the code anyway, you can "do it right"
13:22<yorick>one has to have a base to build upon
13:23<Eddi|zuHause2>instead of leaving it like it is, and when later dynamicising(?) the code, you maybe miss a few instances
13:23<RichK67>i dislike this "do it right"... the only thing "right" at the mo, is anything that works
13:23<yorick>Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about that waay down the list dynamic stuff :)
13:23<Eddi|zuHause2>well, yes, the first prototype is always to find out "how to _not_ do it"
13:23<RichK67>who is to say what is "right" anyway?
13:23<yorick>thank you ;)
13:25<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: well, probably not me, i just give opinions that you should already have considered yourself
13:25<RichK67>its proof of concept, so it can be a bit of a dogs breakfast... .so far ive proved you can create a terrain that zones nicely, and all the graphics can be displayed at the same time
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13:25<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: yes, but at some point, you have to step out of the prototype phase
13:26<yorick>which is not now
13:26<Eddi|zuHause2>at that point, you should be certain what is "right", not start to think about what is "right"
13:27<yorick>Eddi: do you have any coding experience? If not: then shut up about what is "right" :)
13:27<RichK67>newgrf is always an irritating issue, and i have little truck with newgrf coders who whine that their precious newgrf is broken by a new development... dont whine, update it ;)
13:27<yorick>Thank you ;).
13:27<jez>anyone know when Bjrani might be on?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause2>the prototype phase is about getting "all" ways, and separating out the ones that are "wrong"...
13:27<jez>Bjarni
13:27<yorick>bjarni! where?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause2>all that is left must be "right"
13:27<yorick>@seen Bjarni
13:27<@DorpsGek>yorick: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Bjarni> lol
13:27<Eddi|zuHause2>jez: he's probably on some kind of holidays
13:28<Eddi|zuHause2>considering it's easter and stuff ;)
13:28<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: if it was up to me, i would scrap the whole terrain system and start afresh; but i want some life, and have better things to do
13:28<jez>hm
13:28<jez>also my openttd server has been set up
13:28<RichK67>apart from that, it would break everything
13:28<jez>but it isnt appearing in the openttd servers list (even tho it is set to advertise)
13:28<jez>any ideas why?
13:29<yorick>forwarded ports?
13:29<yorick>firewall?
13:29<jez>?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>RichK67: it's always an option when doing rewrites:
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>screw the old system at first
13:29<yorick>provider disables server-ing?
13:29<jez>it doesnt seem to be outputting any errors about advertising
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>and then reimplement the old system on top of the new system
13:29<yorick>no, thats right
13:29<jez>i have my own dedicated server
13:29<Ammler>is there somewhere a howto for hacking the save?
13:29<yorick>it doesn't
13:29<yorick>forwarded ports?
13:29<jez>and you can connet to and play on it
13:29<yorick>yes
13:29<RichK67>Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, i dont believe anything is sacrosanct
13:29<Ammler>for fixing industry bugs
13:29<yorick>there is
13:30<yorick>but not for ottd
13:30<jez>who administers the master openttd server list?
13:30<yorick>ottd saves are compressed and such
13:30<yorick>TrueBrain
13:30<yorick>and he isn't here
13:30<Eddi|zuHause2>jez: then you did forward TCP, but not UDP
13:30<jez>im not forwarding anything
13:30<jez>why would i be forwarding
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13:31<Ammler>yorick: well, uncompressing would be easy
13:31<Ammler>how about the other things?
13:31<Eddi|zuHause2>"forward" meaning "open the firewall port, an make sure the packet arrives at the destination"
13:31<jez>ok
13:31<jez>i opened up all UDP ports for egress
13:31<jez>hence you can connect to and play on the server
13:31<RichK67>ok - im off.... cya
13:31<yorick>and forwarded at router?
13:32<jez>why wouldnt the router forward it?
13:32<yorick>maybe only locals can play when not forwarded
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause2>jez: UDP is not used for the game
13:32<Eddi|zuHause2>only for advertising
13:32<yorick>because it's incoming, not outgoing
13:32<jez>i have no reason to believe the router wouldnt be forwarding my udp packets
13:32<jez>although im not sure it's possible to be sure either way
13:33<yorick>if you haven't set it so, it doesn't
13:33<jez>im not in control of the router upstream
13:33<yorick>no, but your home network?
13:33-!-|Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@e28236.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
13:33<jez>i have a dedicated server, hosted in a professional dataserver. it runs CentOS.
13:33<yorick>oh
13:34<yorick>have you forwarded 3979 to that pc?
13:34<jez>forwarded?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause2>jez: if playing is possible, but advertising not, then the problem MUST be UDP
13:35<jez>mmm
13:35<jez>how can i debug the problem tho
13:35<yorick>forward UPD
13:35<yorick>port 3978?
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause2>@openttd ports
13:35<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
13:36<Ammler>a dedicated server should have its own ip, so no forwarding needed, I assume
13:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but still the firewall must be set up properly
13:36<Ammler>but you might open the firewall of the server itself
13:37<Ammler>I would disable the firewall for testing...
13:38-!-raimar3 [~hawk@p5489E4FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:38<jez>3978? hmm
13:38<yorick>..and get the virusses in
13:40-!-Zahl [~Zahl@p549F3361.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
13:42<jez>i had only opened 3979 for ingress UDP
13:42<jez>i'll try also opening 3978
13:44-!-raimar2 [~hawk@p5489F264.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>PS: yorick: i'm not saying "i have 50 years of coding experience", but there are a few fundamental ground rules that i had quite some success with
13:46<jez>i get:
13:46<jez>dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
13:46<jez>dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
13:46<jez>am i supposed to see something like 'got response from master server;?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause2>like: if a feature takes more than 5 lines, maybe you should spend more time on infrastructure instead
13:47<Eddi|zuHause2>a well designed infrastructure allowes a lot of features with little effort
13:48<Eddi|zuHause2>jez: i can only say what i said before, your UDP port is not open
13:50<jez>but what am i meant to see as output from openttd?
13:51<yorick>exactly that, only "Recieved confirmation from master server", I think
13:53<jez>weird
13:53<+glx>[udp] advertising on master server successful
13:53<jez>even when i disable my firewall i dont get that
13:54<jez>just repeatedly
13:54<jez>dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
13:54<jez>dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
13:54<+glx>then it can't reach master server
13:54<jez>ah
13:54<jez>it works when i try as root
13:54<jez>so why when im logged in as a user doesnt it
13:55<+glx>your user doesn't have rights to go outside maybe
13:55<jez>elinks www.google.com works
13:56<+glx>www.google.com doesn't use UDP
13:56<+glx>it uses TCP
13:56<jez>i cant think what would be stopping the user's account receiving udp
13:56<jez>iptables is ampty
13:56<jez>empty
13:56<+glx>it's not receiving, it's sending
13:57<jez>sending then
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14:08<Pinchiukas>so what makes a bus service profitable?
14:09<Pinchiukas>I've joined a server, blew all my money on an incomplete railway, managed to build two stations in a town and a bus, and it's not profitable! :(
14:12<yorick>oh
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15:23<@peter1138>Busy
15:24<ln>Bjarni!
15:24<ln>is not here
15:24<hylje>clever, ln
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15:44<Pinchiukas>ah, so openttd is something like dopewars :)
15:47-!-Zaviori [~zavior@d195-237-7-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
15:50<Pinchiukas>that's boring :(
15:52<Pinchiukas>what's the point in playing it anyway :(
15:52<@peter1138>Hmm?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause2>what's the point in playing? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%1939.png
15:54-!-Zavior [~zavior@d195-237-7-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55<mrfrenzy>that url is really fucked up eddi|zuhause2
15:55<Eddi|zuHause2>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
15:55<hylje>300 Multiple Choices
15:55<Eddi|zuHause2>typo
15:55<mrfrenzy>that's better
15:56<Pinchiukas>Eddi|zuHause2: well playing should be fun
15:56<Eddi|zuHause2>it is
15:56<Eddi|zuHause2>big time
15:56<Pinchiukas>not for me :/
15:57<Pinchiukas>and you pretty much have to wait until the round ends and the server restarts to be able to win
15:58<Eddi|zuHause2>you win in the end, what should be the problem with that?
15:59<jez>Pinchiukas: that's why NoAI will be so good once it's finished and some good AIs are made. ;-)
15:59<Pinchiukas>what's NoAI?
15:59-!-Zaviori [~zavior@d195-237-7-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:00<Eddi|zuHause2>AI is a computer player
16:00<Eddi|zuHause2>they are really bad, so NoAI is a rewrite of the AI
16:00<Pinchiukas>yeah, I noticed they do some weird shit
16:01<Eddi|zuHause2>it's called NoAI because the first step of implementing a new AI is ripping out all evidence that there ever an AI existed
16:02<jez>what will be cool is we can have an aggressive ai
16:02<jez>and their president photo can be some guy with sunglasses
16:02<jez>then a tentative AI
16:02<jez>and their photo can be some woman looking timid
16:02<jez>haha
16:04<Pinchiukas>well basically openttd sucks cause the time is limited, I'd like the game to continue until there is no place to build anything or something like that
16:05<@peter1138>Time is limited??
16:05<+glx>you can play for as long as you want
16:06<Pinchiukas>well the server restarts
16:06<Pinchiukas>doesn't it? :)
16:06<+glx>that's a server setting
16:06<+glx>it can be changed by server admin
16:07<Pinchiukas>so you can play until the year 9000?
16:07-!-Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
16:07<+glx>~2000000
16:07<+glx>year is an int32 value
16:08<Pinchiukas>but with years some technical achievements show up, right?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause2>only if you have designed some, default vehicles stop changing after 2050
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17:13<henkie>is there a way to automatic remove the "void order"?
17:18<planetmaker>hi
17:18<planetmaker>Does anyone know how I can easily tell a savegame or scenario tell to use a certain config file?
17:18<planetmaker>e.g. replace the existing configuration which comes with it?
17:19<Rubidium>you can't
17:19<planetmaker>That's sad to hear :(. So I've to activate all grf by hand?
17:19<+glx>modifying grfs in an existing game can lead to crashs
17:20<Ammler>planetmaker: there is patch
17:20<jez9999>what port(s) does openttd use when it's acting as a server
17:21<jez9999>all ports, all protocols; a list
17:21<+glx>@openttd ports
17:21<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
17:21<+glx>that's all
17:21<Ammler>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35001&hilit=newgrf+window
17:21<Ammler>that should make it easier
17:21<planetmaker>glx: I don't plan to modify a running game. I've created a map and want to change before start
17:22<jez9999>so it DEFINITELY doesnt use any ports under 1024?
17:22<jez9999>because when i run it as a user, it cant seem to advertise to the master server
17:22<jez9999>im stumped by this
17:22<planetmaker>Ammler: right. That looks nice :). I hope for that to make it into trunk
17:22<jez9999>it's ok as root but buggered as user
17:22<Ammler>planetmaker: can't you build it self?
17:23<Rubidium>jez9999: *unless* you for the port to be different in the config files...
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause2><planetmaker> glx: I don't plan to modify a running game. I've created a map and want to change before start <- that may still cause trouble, especially with newindustries there have been problems
17:29<jez9999>Rubidium: netstat says it is binding UDP port 3979
17:29<jez9999>:-s
17:29<jez9999>altho not 2978
17:29<jez9999>3978
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not recieve on 3978, why should it bind that port?
17:30<Ammler>hmm, newgrf GUI is too old for current trunk
17:31<jez9999>ok
17:31<jez9999>but it has bound udp port 3979
17:31<jez9999>so why the heck isnt it working?
17:31<jez9999>:-(
17:31<jez9999>i just get
17:31<jez9999>dbg: [net] [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
17:31<jez9999>dbg: [net] [udp] advertising to master server
17:31<jez9999>would it give me an error if it couldnt send?
17:31<jez9999>can i assume that it's failing to receive, not send?
17:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12399 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix: some old DOS savegame didn't load properly due to 'garbage' that was sprinkled in some places.
17:33-!-lolman [~John@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:34<jez9999>why do we use UDP, anyway/
17:34<jez9999>wouldnt tcp be better? udp seems to cause problems
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17:37<Rubidium>something with windows servers not being able to handle lots of tcp connections...
17:38<Rubidium>and udp being far more efficient resource wise for the masterserver than tcp
17:38<jez9999>who really knows about networking stuff in the openttd team?
17:38<jez9999>i need a word with them
17:38<jez9999>someone needs to help me diagnose the problem
17:40<+glx>and udp is the best thing for master server communication
17:41<jez9999>not when linux boxes have problems allowing users to access udp!
17:41<jez9999>it's uttely useless then
17:41<+glx>others have no problem with that
17:42<Rubidium>well... if users are not allowed to have udp connections then your system is totally and utterly screwed
17:43<Rubidium>9
17:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12400 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/completeness.sh: [NoAI] -Fix: reduce the number of false positives in the regression test completeness check script.
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17:53<Wolf01>hmhmhmhmmh somebody changed the main toolbar? seem that I'm unable to see competitors company info (the dropdown menu doesn't appear)
17:53-!-Lillefix [~Hakon@062016172110.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #openttd
17:53<Lillefix>Hello
17:54<Lillefix>I was just wondering, do you have any solutions with the nightly-troubles that comes with leopard?
17:55<jez9999>argh
17:55<jez9999>now i cant even advertise successfully to the master server as root
17:56<Lillefix>No solutions for leopard and nightly?
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17:59<Digitalfox>Lillefix could you mention the problems you have with leopard?
17:59<Lillefix>Certainly...
18:00-!-nicfer [~nicfer@cm187107.red91-117.mundo-r.com] has joined #openttd
18:00<Lillefix>Firefly mentions that the X11 that comes with Leopard is broken
18:00<Lillefix>The app just won`t open
18:00-!-helb [~helb@62.240.176.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:00<+glx>Lillefix: many options :) use the ppc version, or compile it yourself
18:00-!-helb [~helb@62.240.176.23] has joined #openttd
18:00<Lillefix>trying to compile now...
18:01<Lillefix>I can`t use the ppc version on my macbook...?
18:01<Patrick`>nope.
18:01<Patrick`>well, it would run through rosetta I guess
18:01-!-dR3x4cK [~Miranda@p5B11C656.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
18:01<Patrick`>I don't actually know the answer to your question, please ignore me
18:02<Lillefix>Yeah, but rosetta is such an hassle
18:02<Patrick`>there should be universal binaries
18:03<henkie>will there also be newmusic? to complement the newgrfs?
18:03<+glx>Patrick`: hard to do when not on a mac
18:03<henkie>will be hard to replace the awesome midi's
18:05<jez9999>im not too fond of those new graphics
18:05<jez9999>the hi-res ones
18:06<jez9999>frankly, unless you want to zoom in to 1000% i see no point in them, and they're not as cute as the normal ttd ones
18:07<Patrick`>well, the new ones are Free To Redistribute
18:07<Patrick`>so with a full set plus free sounds we can finally get a working standalone downloadable product
18:08<Patrick`>and not something nichely-legal like freedoom or UQM
18:12<jez9999>how can i get really verbose debug output from the openttd linux commandline server?
18:12<jez9999>i need network info
18:12<jez9999>like if calls are failing
18:12<henkie>can i still register my server even when it is behind nat?
18:13<+glx>henkie: yes if ports are forwarded
18:13<henkie>it now shows as offline
18:13<henkie>glx, only 3978?
18:13<henkie>tcp / udp
18:13<+glx>3979 udp/tcp
18:14<jez9999>DAMNit
18:14<jez9999>i cannot figure this out
18:14<jez9999>even with debuglevel set to 9
18:14<+glx>3978 is the port used to contact master server
18:14<jez9999>it just says that it's advertising to master server, and nothing more
18:14-!-thgerg1 [~Administr@dsl5402B358.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd
18:15<henkie>glx, yes my bad, i have the right ports forwarded
18:15<jez9999>the openttd daemon needs more useful output
18:15<henkie>and i can join from an external location
18:15-!-XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
18:15<jez9999>that's the other problem with udp. you can't easily diagnose the problem
18:15<henkie>still it shows as offline
18:15<jez9999>i mean it just fires off a packet and that's it
18:15<jez9999>how am i meant to diagnose why it isnt working?
18:16<henkie>does it also ping my connection? cause that could be disabled
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18:17<Lillefix>excuse me, but where do I find the config-file in which I am supposed to set the font?
18:18<henkie>i am btw 130.89.163.214 in the server list
18:22<+glx>Lillefix: do see questionmarks in intro ?
18:22<+glx>*you
18:22<Lillefix>yep
18:23<Lillefix>seems like I am missing openttdw.grf
18:23<+glx>version detection failed
18:23<Lillefix>yes
18:23<Lillefix>What did I do wrong?
18:24<+glx>latest nightly or pre-r12396 ?
18:24<Lillefix>pre.. it is 12368
18:24<Lillefix>planned to play online
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18:25<+glx>ok so you need to do ./configure --revision=r12368
18:26<Lillefix>trying as we speak
18:28<henkie>ah, must be because i am behind the same NAT
18:28<henkie>is there a mechanism to transfer the newgrf from the server to the clients?
18:29<+glx>no, and there will never
18:29<henkie>cause of possible copyright or virii?
18:29<+glx>copyrights
18:29<henkie>k, fair enough
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18:33<DaleStan>Newgrf virus shouldn't be possible. Doesn't mean "isn't", of course, but TTDPatch, at least, never uses stack buffers for newgrf data, and all code is before the buffer, so any overflow won't hit code either.
18:36-!-Sacro` is now known as Sacro
18:36<henkie>it's kinda troublesome to find the right mix of newgrf for me :)
18:38<Lillefix>glx: Thanks, I got it now
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18:43<cyber>whats openttd ?
18:43<Sacro>whats cyber?
18:46<cyber>well i can tell sacro is the nick of an imbecil ...
18:46<+glx>lol
18:48<Sacro>imbecile
18:48<henkie>snap!
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18:52*Lillefix snaps to!
18:55<cyber>do i need the tt original files to play ?
18:57<Sacro>yep
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18:58<+glx>ttd not tt
18:58<henkie>is the game still for sale btw?
18:59<valhallasw>transport tycoon deluxe? no
18:59<lolman>eBay would be best bet for getting a copy of TTD, I would assume
19:00<Sacro>or the other Bay
19:00<lolman>Or that, yes
19:00<henkie>p* ? :)
19:00<lolman>That's of questioned legality though
19:00<Sacro>henkie: yarr
19:01<henkie>:P
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19:03<Wolf01>'night
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19:04<henkie>btw, what can i do with the "timetable" feature? or is it just for stats?
19:04<+glx>you can use it to force your trains to wait at stations without using "full load"
19:06<henkie>ah i see, but when it states a train is "late", that's just for my info?
19:06<henkie>*info for me
19:06<+glx>yes
19:06<henkie>getting late i see
19:06<henkie>k, tnx
19:06<+glx>but that be caused by a traffic jam
19:07<+glx>may
19:07<henkie>yeah, the bad kind of jam :)
19:07<cyber>i hate transport just because theres no sea faring
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19:07<cyber>its all about trains
19:08<henkie>then may i suggest another game :)
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19:08<henkie>trains kinda rule
19:08<henkie>planes are way to easy
19:08<cyber>but you cant beat a ship
19:09<henkie>busses are ok, when you have like 2 dollar
19:09<henkie>ships dont run on track, so i dont really dig them
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19:10<cyber>well that the fun thing about ships and that they carry lots of goods
19:11<Born_Acorn>Ships aren't fun! They're serious pieces of maritime equipment!
19:11<henkie>yeah, but placing signs and all is fun
19:11<cyber>im no expert but i think boats and trains are the best energy efficients transport means
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19:13<cyber>mainly for heavy loads
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20:29<Ammller>heya
20:29<Ammller>did something change with the clientlist?
20:30<Ammller>its not accessable like it was in past with current nightly
20:30-!-planetmaker_ [~chatzilla@Fcfeb.f.ppp-pool.de] has joined #openttd
20:31<Ammller>(click on company icon..)
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20:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12401 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix (r9754): when loading TTD savegame some data were lost (profits, ...) due to a 'reallocation' for vehicle type conversion. The conversion is now done before loading the vehicle chunk.
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22:26<nicfer>today I started a rv-only game
22:26<nicfer>now I have 298 vehicles
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 24 00:00:00 2008