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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-28

---Logopened Fri Mar 28 00:00:23 2008
---Daychanged Fri Mar 28 2008
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00:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12458 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h station_gui.cpp): -Codechange: split acquiring the sprite ID for cargos from the actual drawing of them.
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02:32<Eddi|zuHause3>"/usr/share/locale/klingon" <- wtf?
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03:30<@peter1138>pom te pom
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03:35<Celestar>morning
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03:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause3: ? :)
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03:39<Eddi|zuHause3>apparently, this is the only file in there: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 399 30. Dez 03:03 /usr/share/locale/klingon/LC_MESSAGES/avidemux.mo
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04:12<Celestar>peter1138: do you happen to have the newgrf-station-animation patch wif you?
04:14<Rubidium>isn't that on his 'o'?
04:20<Eddi|zuHause3>he said "at home" yesterday
04:22<Eddi|zuHause3>"statanim7.dif" <- looks like a severe typo ;)
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04:37<Celestar>why?
04:38<Celestar>hm .. AMD makes tri-cores, Intel annouces 6 core-cpus. what next? 7 cores? :P
04:39<@peter1138>bah, give me one fast core...
04:51<Forked>you're so old fashioned, peter ;)
04:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12459 /trunk/src/ (29 files): -Codechange: split news.h into news_type.h and news_func.h.
04:57<Celestar>oh, is Rubidium cleaning up the header mess?
04:58<@peter1138>has been for ages
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04:59<Celestar>I don't like that "for ages" part :P
05:01<Eddi|zuHause3>it will also go on f... mmpfffmfmpf...
05:03<Celestar>can we include a "chocobo" vehicle type in ottd?
05:04<Eddi|zuHause3>a what?
05:05<Celestar>Chocobo
05:05<Celestar>wiki it ;)
05:05<Eddi|zuHause3>oh... i should have thunk that :p
05:06<Celestar>they're versatile, fast, go on any terrian and comfortable
05:06<Celestar>:P
05:07<Eddi|zuHause3>and i can't get this compiler to work...
05:10<Eddi|zuHause3>where would i normally find stddef.h?
05:10<@peter1138>a chocobo from ffx2?
05:11<Celestar>peter1138: yeah :P
05:11<@peter1138>weirdo
05:11<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause3: in /usr/include/linux
05:13<Eddi|zuHause3>"/usr/include/stdio.h", line 34: catastrophic error: could not open source file "stddef.h"
05:13<Eddi|zuHause3> # include <stddef.h>
05:13<Celestar>wtf?
05:13<Celestar>what compiler is that?
05:14<Eddi|zuHause3>when i add --include_directory=/usr/include/linux, it complains about "size_t not defined"
05:14<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a compiler frontend that i should use for code analysis
05:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12460 /trunk/src/ (namegen.cpp namegen.h namegen_func.h strings.cpp): -Change: rename src/namegen.h to src/namegen_func.h so MSVC can have both files in it's treelist.
05:15<@peter1138>both?
05:16<Rubidium>there's a namegen.h in table/ too
05:16<Rubidium>you did know that, didn't you?
05:18<Celestar>are you telling me that MSVC cannot have two source files of the same name in two different directories?
05:18<@peter1138>Celestar, yes
05:18<Celestar>what an ultimately retarded "feature"
05:18<Rubidium>MSFTW!
05:19<@peter1138>how can i use the msvc project files without making changes?
05:19<Rubidium>you can't I reckon
05:19<@peter1138>i'd rather use SDL than bother with installing the direct x crap
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05:20<Eddi|zuHause3>i thought the directx crap was just used for music?
05:23<Ammler>@openttd ports
05:23<@DorpsGek>Ammler: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
05:24<@peter1138>Rubidium: i think it is possible
05:24<@peter1138>in configuration manager
05:24<@peter1138>instead of having "debug" and "release"
05:24<@peter1138>well
05:24<@peter1138>i added "debug (sdl)"
05:24<@peter1138>which has appropriate settings, heh
05:24<@peter1138># cos everybody knows
05:25<@peter1138># she's a femme fatale
05:25<@peter1138>BUILD SUCCEEDED :D
05:25<@peter1138>hmm
05:25<HMage>build success, more work less talk will commence then?
05:26<HMage>O
05:27<HMage>I'd rather use outdated directx (6.1) rather than 9.0
05:27<HMage>which is shipped with both msvc and mingw
05:27<Eddi|zuHause3>use dx10!!
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05:27<HMage>lol
05:27<HMage>whole openttd in pixel shaders!
05:28<HMage>no cpu, more gpu!
05:28<@peter1138>:o
05:28<HMage>the better gfx card you have, the smarter your trains move
05:29<@peter1138>:o
05:29<HMage>so a loser with 8600 will have less efficient network than one with 2x9800GTS
05:29<Eddi|zuHause3>Quad SLI :)
05:29<@peter1138>8600... is hardly slow...
05:29<HMage>and yay for physics! real-time-photorealistic train collisions!
05:30<HMage>peter1138: 8600 is the lowest that supports dx10
05:30<Eddi|zuHause3>the matrix cannot cope with explosions
05:30<@peter1138>8400/8500?
05:30<HMage>I didn't know they exist
05:30<Celestar>they do
05:30<HMage>ah, but can't see them here in moscow being sold anywhere
05:30<@peter1138>8600 is for normal people
05:30<HMage>8600gt is the lowest
05:31<@peter1138>8800/9800 are for fools with too much money
05:31<SpComb>the 9600 looked nice
05:31<@peter1138>256MB 8400GS - £18.99, heh
05:31<HMage>yeah, 9600 will provide a great performance boost for my openttd :D
05:31<@peter1138>1GB 9800 GX2 - £340
05:31<SpComb>lies
05:32<@peter1138>might with the opengl driver ;)
05:32<HMage>SpComb: that was sarcasm
05:32<SpComb>lies
05:32<HMage>I want pixel-accurate train collisions!
05:33*Celestar gives HMage a pixel-accurate fist-to-nost collision
05:33*Celestar ruls
05:33<Celestar>runs*
05:33<HMage>I want realistic train failures when they go out of track
05:33<@peter1138>transport empire will do all that and more!
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05:33*HMage doesn't have a dx10-compatible card so your fist dave through my unharmed nose
05:33<Celestar>peter1138: yeah, after NASA has put a man on Mars
05:33<HMage>dove*
05:33<@peter1138>on jupiter
05:34<HMage>on alpha centauri
05:34<Celestar>Vulcan!
05:34<HMage>yay
05:34<HMage>Live long and prosper!
05:34<HMage>build long trains and your transport company prospers!
05:34<HMage>(OpenTTD Vulcan edition)
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05:35*HMage runs around
05:35<Celestar>it would be illogical for the Vulcans to have a capitalistic systems
05:36<HMage>that's why it's a game
05:36<Celestar>:P
05:36<Celestar>openttd, socialist edition?
05:36<HMage>I suspect Feringhi would be most active openttd code contributors :)
05:36<Rubidium>:O with the destroy everything cheat disabled and only one player
05:37<Celestar>Rubidium: yeah :)
05:37<HMage>I hope I spelt them right
05:37-!-Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
05:37<HMage>actually no, socialst edition is when everyone can build
05:37<Eddi|zuHause3>probably not ;)
05:37<HMage>so you'll have every town's each own transport systems and you'll need to do a revolution with red army
05:37<HMage>so you can have it under your control
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05:38<HMage>OpenTTD Yuri's Revenge
05:38<Celestar>yeah, everyone can build but only one gets all the money. In US dollars :P
05:39<HMage>did anyone tried to calculate how many tiles would be needed to accomodate whole planet at realistic distances?
05:39<HMage>so you can have russia, usa, africa, london, etc
05:39<Celestar>HMage: openttd doesn't provide realistic distances
05:39<HMage>I know
05:40<HMage>at least with train speed wise
05:40<Eddi|zuHause3>in airport distances -- not much
05:40<Celestar>HMage: it's about 50 meters per tile for the detail, 500m for airports and 5km for distances between towns
05:40<Eddi|zuHause3>in train lengths -- very much
05:41<Celestar>assuming the earth is rectangular, that'd be about 8192x4096 tiles.
05:41<Eddi|zuHause3>*wääääh* this is so annoying...
05:41<HMage>I thought bigger
05:42<Celestar>HMage: in airport distaance 81920x40960 and in full detail 819200x409600
05:42<Celestar>so that'd be 3.3^11 tiles
05:42<HMage>819200x seems closer to reality, cause I asked this because I was wonder what if OpenTTD was MMO
05:42<Celestar>so that's around 1TB of main memory you need.
05:42-!-Zahl [~Zahl@p549F213C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
05:42<HMage>ahha
05:42<Celestar>hm..not enough
05:43<Celestar>rather 8TB or summin
05:43<Eddi|zuHause3>just make the swap big enough ;)
05:43<Forked>time to start swapping :p
05:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12461 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: add (quite) some missing headers to the MSVC project files.
05:43<Forked>using sold state disks..
05:43<HMage>how many bytes per tile is used?
05:44<Celestar>considering a normal desktop PC can run a 2k x 2k map normally...
05:44<Celestar>that'd be 16 million CPUs you'd need.
05:44<Rubidium>HMage: 9
05:44<HMage>is it compiler-dependent?
05:44<Celestar>16 million CPUs at only 1 Gigaflop is 16 Petaflops
05:45<Celestar>that's more than the top500 supercomputers have together. So: forget it ;)
05:45<HMage>Celestar: it's just one of those "what if" ponderings :)
05:45<Celestar>really? :P
05:45<HMage>yup
05:45<Celestar>HMage: no it should be 9 bytes/tile on (most) compilers
05:46<HMage>I see, how did you manage that? forced packing?
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05:48<Rubidium>HMage: but that excludes information needed for industries, towns, vehicles, players and all that stuff
05:48<HMage>I know I can rearrange, but still. my client_t struct is 496 bytes big on msvc and 476 on gcc4
05:48<Eddi|zuHause3>HMage: docs/landscape_grid.html
05:49<Eddi|zuHause3>and src/*_map.h
05:49<HMage>Eddi|zuHause3: it's just pondering, I don't want to dig myself into openttd internals that much, just wanted to ask from the devs that probably know this off their memory.
05:50<HMage>sorry, no offence. Didn't mean to.
05:50<keyweed>only 16 milion cpu's. i can donate three.
05:50<Celestar>HMage: it's two structs. One with 8 bytes and one with a single byte, so that we don't run into packing problems :)
05:51<HMage>I can donate one. Celeron 266 :D
05:51<HMage>Celestar: I see
05:51<Eddi|zuHause3>only 3 cpus? each modern car has magnitudes more than that
05:51<keyweed>see. now we only need 15 999 996
05:51<keyweed>what's a car?
05:51<HMage>keyweed: he means train car :)
05:51<keyweed>HMage: ah. a wagon
05:52<Celestar>A Chocobo whth wheels.
05:52<HMage>the one you put coal in, fr example :)
05:52<HMage>Toyota Coal Wagon
05:52<HMage>sounds delicious
05:52<keyweed>yeah. i was getting worried. people are trying to convince me the world should be full of weird small personal transport system
05:52<keyweed>bit like busses, only there hardly fit people in there.
05:53<keyweed>silly people. you'd need to cover the earth in asfalt for that to work.
05:53*HMage prefers horses to cars
05:53<HMage>horses even have their own coal generator :D
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05:53<Celestar>keyweed: yeah, I use one of the things daily :)
05:55<keyweed>Celestar: i don't. i find it hard to read in them and i can't afford to waste my transportation time watching the road
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05:55<Celestar>yeah I know that problem, but there's no way around it.
05:56<Celestar>plus reading requires a seat. I only have that in personal vehicles ;(
05:56<keyweed>but well. seriously. most countries don't have very efficient public transport.
05:56<keyweed>reading doesn't require a seat :P
05:56<Celestar>for me it does.
05:56<Rubidium>why would you read in the train when you can watch television?
05:56<Celestar>you can? on a subway ?
05:57<keyweed>what would i watch?
05:57<larsemil>cause reading a book is better
05:57<Eddi|zuHause3>why would you watch television if you have the internets?
05:57<keyweed>most tv is just plainly annoying
05:57<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: too much Colbert for you!
05:58<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... actually i don't watch that...
05:59<HMage>I want pixel-shader explosions in OpenTTD!
05:59<HMage>With poker, with blackjack and hookers.
05:59*keyweed hands HMage a C manual
05:59<keyweed>good luck
05:59<[1]Roujin>morning
05:59*Rubidium wonders how much pixel shaders HMage is willing to sacrifice for that
06:00*[1]Roujin fell asleep at the computer yesterday -_-
06:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i sacrifice two pixel shaders to summon a vertex shader
06:00<Rubidium>and I'm also wondering how to explode the pixel shader
06:01<HMage>Rubidium: with blackjack, with poker
06:01<HMage>and hookers
06:01<Eddi|zuHause3>then i tap two white gpus to attack HMage with my vertex shader
06:01<Celestar>Rubidium: buy a GF9800 and rip the heat sink off?
06:01*keyweed ties a certain politician to a train track and tries to focus on work
06:01*[1]Roujin is still too tired to succesfully resist laughing. damnit you guys ^_^
06:01<Rubidium>but then it explodes before it can pass the POST
06:02<Celestar>keyweed: is that politician by chance a president?
06:02<keyweed>Celestar: no, and he'll never be that. it's a certain white haired dutch idiot
06:03<Celestar>oh :)
06:03*Celestar gets himself some food
06:03*HMage goes to get himself some hookers
06:08<Celestar>ROFL
06:08<Celestar>for the dutch:
06:08<Celestar>http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fotos/foto-shows/bild_des_monats/mpsfshw_show_503880_13999.hbs
06:08<[1]Roujin>may i redirect your guys' mental capacity (at least of those who haven't left for food or hookers) from telling jokes to telling me if and where I can find something like game_ticks in the ottd code?
06:09<Rubidium>date*
06:09<[1]Roujin>i'll look into that, thanks
06:10<Celestar>[1]Roujin: the video drivers might be helpful as well
06:10*HMage would use search in files, but he doesn't have source code handy... and he's already in his pyjamas...
06:10<keyweed>Celestar: hehe
06:12<[1]Roujin>celestar: yes, i've grepped for that, and just found some weird stuff in weird video files i don't understand :P
06:12<Celestar>like what?
06:13<[1]Roujin>oh no it was GetTick i've grepped for
06:13<Celestar>the video drivers run the main loop
06:13<HMage>[1]Roujin: I don't know how openttd works, so it's just a wild guess: game_ticks get updated only when video driver is capable of drawing a new frame
06:13<keyweed>i don't even own a mobile home, am i really dutch?
06:13<[1]Roujin>src/video/cocoa/event.mm <-- I don't even have a clue what mm is
06:14<Celestar>isn't that C# or something?
06:14<Rubidium>objC++
06:14<Celestar>er Obj-C++ sorry
06:14<Celestar>you on a Mac?
06:15*HMage gets some more hookers
06:15<[1]Roujin>Rubidium: so date is basically an int32 thats holding the ticks?
06:15<Celestar>http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2007/10/7R5zU5kO5JSjok_450x300.jpg
06:15<Rubidium>nope
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06:15<Rubidium>Date holds the days
06:15<Rubidium>but (src/)date* has some stuff about ticks
06:16<[1]Roujin>celestar: no, winXP using msys/minGW for coding stuff
06:16<Celestar>[1]Roujin: cocao is mac stuff
06:16<Celestar>[1]Roujin: have a look at win32_v.cpp
06:16<Celestar>MainLoop
06:18<Celestar>http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2007/10/2I4iJ1ktBc415I_450x300.jpg <= MUUHAHA
06:20<Celestar>what the fuck? http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2007/07/HBVDhKsS_450x300.jpg
06:21<Rubidium>cash cow!
06:23<Zuu>Celestar: At least you are allowed to do a u-turn :)
06:24<Celestar>Zuu: you may also take off vertically and dig into the ground?
06:24<Zuu>Hmm, or maybe not. if the third is "no u-turn".
06:24<Zuu>Celestar: Yea, or why not build a wormwhole.
06:25<[1]Roujin>do i get it right that GetTickCount() is a function provided by the OS?
06:25<Celestar>Boooooze: http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2008/02/HBbS8wu1_450x300.jpg
06:25<HMage>yup, by win32, and it's slow
06:25<HMage>my last reply was for [1]Roujin
06:26<[1]Roujin>hmm then that's not exactly what i was looking for oO .. but i think i found what i need --> VARDEF uint16 _tick_counter;
06:27<HMage>[1]Roujin: would you tell us what you are looking for? current date in gametime? (11th Apr 2010)
06:27<Zuu>Celestar: Some friends at aoeu.info gave away a 3 meter tall beer to a guy also from aoeu.info on his 18 year birthday.
06:28<Celestar>Now THIS is snafu'ed: http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2008/01/1BNOTsBSTq1qvs_450x300.jpg
06:28<[1]Roujin>nope, some raw value i can drive traffic lights transitions from without using a weird combination of TileLoop and AnimatedTiles as it is now
06:28<Rubidium>GetTickCount is not safe for that
06:29<[1]Roujin>yes, i won't use that. I'll use _tick_counter methinks
06:30<Rubidium>goes from 0 to 73 (or something else when you modified it)
06:30<[1]Roujin>i think you're confusing it with _date_fract
06:30<Rubidium>hmm, could be
06:31<[1]Roujin>_tick_counter only has ++'es in the IncreaseDate function so i guess it will overflow at 655xx what's it
06:31<Rubidium>ah, that looks safeist
06:31<[1]Roujin>2^16
06:31<Rubidium>ah, that looks safeish
06:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12462 /branches/noai/ (173 files in 20 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12304:12461.
06:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12463 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: silence another gcc-4.3 warning.
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07:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12464 /trunk/src/ (ottdres.rc.in resource.h): -Change: remove an include that doesn't define anything anyway.
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07:46<@peter1138>blah de blah
07:48<Volley>maybe a stupid question, but is 0.6.0-rc1 mislabeld? i just downloaded the source (to patch YAPP into it), built a debian package, and it has version "0.7~svn" now...
07:50<Rubidium>yup, looks like the debian package file is a little messed up
07:51<Rubidium>just remove the top few lines and it should be ok
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12465 /branches/0.6/os/debian/changelog: [0.6] -Fix: for the 0.6.x releases we shouldn't say we're 0.7.0~svn.
07:52<Rubidium>but then again, if you patch YAPP into it it isn't 0.6.0-RC1 anymore either
07:52<Volley>true :)
07:56<Volley>editing debian/openttd/DEBIAN/control and debian/files should do ... sigh, i really need to learn some basics about how to build debian packages and what i can do with the package management
07:59<[1]Roujin>oO
08:00<[1]Roujin>my openttd just started in a 100x50 pixels window oO
08:00<[1]Roujin>ok, seems i messed something up
08:01<SmatZ>you can resize the window :)
08:01<[1]Roujin>yeap did that
08:01<[1]Roujin>then clicked on configure patches and it crashed...
08:01<SmatZ>:-x
08:01<[1]Roujin>seems it doesn't like savegame version 1001 after all....
08:02<SmatZ>:)
08:02<[1]Roujin>or.. maybe i've messed up somewhere else '-_-
08:02<[1]Roujin>gnarf
08:03<Volley>accidentially copied your openttd config from your mobilephone or so? :)
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08:08<[1]Roujin>appearently the savegame version being 1001 was indeed the fault...
08:09<[1]Roujin>i thought it was uint16 - shouldn't it be able to cope with numbers up to 65535 then?
08:19<Phantasm^>http://armorgames.com/play/1043/the-worlds-hardest-game
08:22<Volley>Rubidium: aargh - now i get it: the version number used for packaging is parsed from the changelog ...
08:25<@peter1138>worlds hardest game was the sentinel, with no instructions
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08:26<Volley>depends on what you call "game" ... some consider gcc as their favourite game ...
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08:34<[1]Roujin>well it's not really that hard.. at least i've completed 8/30 of it now so i guess it's an overstatement :O
08:34<[1]Roujin>bored now... back to coding
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08:36<Volley>see - games like gcc have way more depth :)
08:37<SpComb>hmm
08:38<SpComb>pfft, what did you expect from a game called "The World's Hardest Game?"
08:39<SpComb>I suspect N's a lot harder than that game
08:39<SpComb>or at least has a lot more potential to be a lot harder
08:40<SpComb>same kind of game, though
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08:47<[1]Roujin>dang... now i succeeded in driving the traffic lights off the game ticks instead of storing their state in the map array, but they aren't refreshed properly...
08:48<[1]Roujin>i guess i cannot iterate over the whole map and mark each tile with a traffic light dirty every tick ><
08:48<[1]Roujin>or every 256th tick even
08:49<Rubidium>just let them change their state on each tileloop tick
08:51<[1]Roujin>thing is, tileloop isn't fast enough for yellow states
08:51<Rubidium>I thought that goes every 256 ticks
08:53<Rubidium>the only trick you could try is marking it animated and when that 'triggers' turn it to red and remove the animation
08:53<[1]Roujin>i've done that with my current version...
08:54<[1]Roujin>ooh... wait a second
08:54<[1]Roujin>i could just add all traffic light tiles to the animated tile list
08:55<[1]Roujin>that way it won't have to iterate over the whole map, just go through the list. I guess that's acceptable performance wise
08:58<[1]Roujin>once it works as expected, they will need only one bit in the map array (are there trafficlights? yes/no)
08:59<Ammler>I tried to apply a patch (distant-join-station) to current trunk, one Hunk failed: http://paste.openttd.org/1538
09:03<Ammler>with current trunk snippet: http://paste.openttd.org/1539
09:04<Ammler>failed it, because there is one new key after since patch?
09:05<[1]Roujin>well, just add the line from trunk (OSK = on screen keyboard), then the one from the patch...
09:06<[1]Roujin>you get conflicts easily when adding stuff at the same place
09:06<[1]Roujin>i also get that when adding two patches that both add a (or several) patch options
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09:08<@peter1138>Not that hard to resolve...
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09:10<[1]Roujin>of course.. just add one after the other
09:11<Ammler>yep, thanks, was just wondering, if there is something else
09:12<Ammler>why can't patch not apply such diff?
09:13<@peter1138>because it doesn't know what should happen
09:16<[1]Roujin>there might be cases where one thing must go before the other, and how should it know which one goes first?
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09:20<Ammler>well, and how should I know that?
09:20<karen44st>hiya
09:21<keyweed>hi karen
09:21<karen44st>how are you
09:21<Ammler>before or after "WC_OSK"?
09:21<@peter1138>it doesn't matter
09:22<keyweed>karen44st: i'm good. how's you?
09:23<karen44st>im fine thanx
09:24<karen44st>were you from
09:25<@peter1138>toyland
09:25<karen44st>weres that
09:25<@peter1138>on the right
09:25<@Belugas>besides the desert tropical island :)
09:25<karen44st>ohhhhh nice
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09:34<pax```>hi does 'presignals' feature require anything other than openttd itself? I can't find it in game
09:36-!-|Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@77.60.199.139] has joined #openttd
09:36<@peter1138>nope
09:36<@peter1138>ctrl-click on signals or use the signal gui to use them
09:37<Trond>talking about signal gui... wouldnt ON be a better default ^^
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09:38<@Belugas>denied!
09:38<@peter1138>no
09:38<Trond>ouch
09:38<@peter1138>because it sucks
09:38<Trond>rly?
09:38<@Belugas>and it's buggy, but strangely, no users reported it...
09:38<@Belugas>like... HOooo!!! In TRUNK, QUICK
09:38<@Belugas>but once on trunk,
09:38<@Belugas>no one care
09:38<@Belugas>+s
09:39<@Belugas>users...
09:39<@Belugas>prrrrrrrt!
09:39<Trond>works fine for me... I use it all the time...
09:39<@Belugas>then, you are not using it in a way that it shows ther bugs, or you do not notice them :P
09:39<Trond>I must be doing it right then :P
09:40<Trond>only signal bug I've seen is that sometimes a signal doesnt work as intended and I have to remove and add it again for it to work...
09:45<@Belugas>heheh
09:45<@Belugas>that's not it :)
09:45<@peter1138>its coding style sucks too
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09:48<@Belugas>yup. But if coding style was considered a bug, there would be a lot of patches considered t be buggy as hell
09:48<@Belugas>ho wait..
09:48<@Belugas>it'sa already the case ^_^
09:48<@Belugas>hello glx :)
09:48<Phantasm^>Belugas: Is the bug about too few industry after long time on big maps (and too many on small maps) fixed?
09:49<+glx>it's not a bug, it's a newgrf feature :)
09:49<@Belugas>have you written a patch Phantasm^?
09:49<@Belugas>have you checked the logs?
09:49<Phantasm^>glx: I wouldn't say so.
09:49<Phantasm^>Belugas: No and no. I have no idea where such logs are even. I once tried to find them with no success.
09:50<@Belugas>such an implacable argument...
09:50<DaleStan>Phantasm^: svn.openttd.org
09:50<+glx>or hg. or git.
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09:52<Phantasm^>God damn I hate wordpad over and over again.
09:52<Gekz>lol
09:52<Gekz>get a real OS
09:52<Phantasm^>There is no fucking easy way to drag and drop staff in there so I could read it.
09:52-!-pax``` [~pax@89.1.41.198.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:52<Gekz>like... BeOS
09:52<Gekz>or OpenVMS
09:52<Phantasm^>It just puts a nice box that opens on notepad that doesn't support linux type row changes..
09:52<@Belugas>get a life, Gekz
09:52<@Belugas>any OS is good, as long as you know how to deal with it
09:54<Phantasm^>The svn fails.. It won't show full changelog anywhere and the download only shows changelog of those beta releases and not svn..
09:54<Phantasm^>How do I see *FULL* changelog no matter how big it is?
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09:56<Gekz>Belugas: not true
09:56<Gekz>CP/M sucked ass
09:56<@Belugas>is it still in use? No? so moot!!!
09:56<@Belugas>moooooooooooooooooot
09:56<+glx>I have it on my cpc
09:56<Phantasm^>Gekz: Btw, NT kernel (any version, not sure about newest due to vista drm shit) is far superior to Linux.
09:57<Phantasm^>It is what is on top of it that makes the bad stuff on windows.
09:57<Gekz>Phantasm^: and that reason is?
09:57<@Belugas>ho boy... /me goes work@work
09:57<keyweed>Gekz: magic
09:57<Phantasm^>Gekz: Go study it and you'll see. ;P
09:57<Gekz>Phantasm^: I already know, I'm wondering if you do.
09:58<keyweed>but Phantasm^ could be right, hard to tell if you haven't read the source.
09:58<Phantasm^>Gekz: They are on a whole different level. And yes, I don't know much about how they differ, but I have heard from my friends (who know their stuff so I can trust them being correct on it).
09:58<Phantasm^>keyweed: There are ways even without the source.
09:58<keyweed>my colleagues, who modify kernels themselves, dissagree with Phantasm^
09:59<keyweed>but "i heard that an expert told me that" is quite a moot argument.
09:59<Gekz>Phantasm^: care to elaborate on those ways
09:59<Gekz>it amuses me when people have an argument with no primary sources.
10:00<Phantasm^>Gekz: Well, I'm not that much interested in that to take the time to learn the differences myself.
10:00<keyweed>good and bad is usually a feeling people have somewhere in there belly.
10:00<Gekz>Phantasm^: then dont take part in the argument.
10:00<keyweed>making a list of provable good and bad features, characteristics or functionality is too much work
10:00<Phantasm^>Gekz: You said me get a real OS and I replied.
10:01<keyweed>"passion rules reason"
10:01<Gekz>you ranted abuot the kernel
10:01<Gekz>lol
10:01<Gekz>OS != kernel
10:01<Gekz>it's a collective of crap
10:01<keyweed>Phantasm^: your defending something without proof, arguments or examples.
10:01<Phantasm^>keyweed: So? :)
10:01<keyweed>you were told something and accpet it as truth
10:01<Gekz>Someone on the internet is _WRONG_
10:02<Phantasm^>keyweed: If that one person tells me something, I accept it as trust quite easily. ;P
10:02<keyweed>nations burned because people just assumed things they were told were true
10:02<Phantasm^>The source matters a lot on how I accept things without proof.
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10:02<Gekz>Phantasm^: American!
10:03<keyweed>very very few things are absolutely true. as for the OS crussades, almost nothing your are told is true :)
10:03<keyweed>*crusades
10:03<Gekz>keyweed: kernel debuggers make the linux kernel panic
10:03<Gekz>thats true
10:03<Gekz>:)
10:03<keyweed>could be, too lazy to try and reproduce it :P
10:03<Phantasm^>keyweed: This is nothing about OS crusades.
10:03<keyweed>Phantasm^: no, but the windows kernel is superior. "just because"
10:03<Phantasm^>And the person I heard those things from does not take any part in OS crusades either.
10:04<keyweed>and "my friend is more reliable then your friend"
10:04<Phantasm^>keyweed: Yes, just because. ;P
10:04<Phantasm^>I never asked you to believe it. I just stated something without proving it. I replied when asked why I stated that.
10:04<Phantasm^>Not to prove it, just to answer to the question.
10:05<Gekz>!
10:05<Gekz>!!
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10:07<Phantasm^>And as you are so much about proving things, prove me Linux is better than say NT 5.2 kernel.
10:08<Gekz>one word: GPL
10:08<Gekz>lol
10:08<Gekz>one acronym*
10:08<Phantasm^>License doesn't prove anything.
10:08<Gekz>... it proves a lot
10:08<Phantasm^>Not in this case.
10:08<Gekz>lol, wtf.
10:08<Gekz>if you say so
10:08<Gekz>I'm not caring to argue
10:08<Phantasm^>I make you a GPL hello world and it is better than NT 5.2 kernel because it is GPL?
10:08<Gekz>I didnt even say Linux
10:09<Gekz>hello world isnt a gpl''d kernel
10:09<keyweed>i don't have to prove anything. not that i could, i'm not a kernel developer
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10:09<Gekz>I said BeOS or OpenVMS
10:09<Gekz>lol
10:09<keyweed>but a) i just don't trust code i can't read b) i want my OS to be supplied with a lot of love and political corectness
10:09<Phantasm^>Gekz: Yes it isn't. But just because something is GPL doesn't make it a better kernel than closed source one.
10:09<Gekz>better is contextual
10:10<Gekz>and very opinion based
10:10<Gekz>and its a freaking kernel
10:10<keyweed>Phantasm^: closed source makes the quality of somethin indeterminable.
10:10<Gekz>it doesnt matter how good the kernl is if the software sucks a giant cock
10:10<Phantasm^>Ok, let's define better in mathematical sense so that closed or open source do not matter at all in it.
10:10<keyweed>the entire windows kernel could be full of goto's and void loops, we'd never know
10:10<Phantasm^>keyweed: You can reverse engineer it and you can test the output without looking into the source.
10:11<keyweed>and microsoft products are never suplied with any love. they just take your money and stop caring about you
10:11<keyweed>Phantasm^: that's illegal
10:11<Phantasm^>It doesn't matter how it is done, as long as it does what it is supposed to, is fast, stable and secure.
10:11<keyweed>Phantasm^: read the eula
10:11<Gekz>while (true) { putc "L"; putc "O"; putc "L"; putc(\n"
10:11<Gekz>bah
10:11<Phantasm^>keyweed: And I care because?
10:11<Gekz>ctrl j = \n
10:11<Gekz>how annoying
10:11<Gekz>but you get the picture
10:11<Phantasm^>Eula have no meaning in here.
10:11<keyweed>Phantasm^: apparently you don;t care.
10:11<ben_goodger>(¡!¡!)⁷²
10:11<ben_goodger>windows is, currently, better at low-latency usage such as video. beyond that, I cannot conceive any advantage
10:11<Phantasm^>Nothing stated in eula have any legal value here.
10:11<ben_goodger>Phantasm^: a GPL'd hello world is more useful in many fields than the NT 5.2 kernel, because we can see how it works
10:12<ben_goodger>Phantasm^: you can't define it that way. the ability of other people to see how something works is a large factor in its goodness
10:12<ben_goodger>keyweed: you can bet your lower back it's full of gotos
10:12<Gekz>Phantasm^: not true
10:12<keyweed>you'r making usless statements in void context and don't care.
10:12<ben_goodger>well, it's certainly not secure...
10:12<Gekz>Phantasm^: it _is_ a license agreement
10:12<Gekz>one that allows you to get a refund
10:12<Phantasm^>Gekz: And has no legal value here.
10:12<Gekz>I think that's legally abiding
10:12<Gekz>yes it does
10:12<Gekz>the EU supports abusing it like nothign I've ever seen
10:12<Phantasm^>In Finland EULA is not legally binding.
10:12<keyweed>Phantasm lives in china?
10:12<ben_goodger>Gekz: to be fair, the limit to which a contract can impede one's rights under copyright law is variable and, in developed countries, nil
10:13<Gekz>the Apple licence is terrible
10:13<Gekz>and I'm going to sleep
10:13<Gekz>1am ist nicht sehr gut.
10:13<Gekz>Nacht.
10:13<Phantasm^>Ok, for companies EULA might affect, but for customers EULA is not legally binding in Finland.
10:14<ln>Gekz: English only.
10:14<ben_goodger>ln: is it not perfectly obvious what that means?
10:14<ben_goodger>bonan nokton, Gekz
10:15*keyweed makes a note never to hire Phantasm^
10:15<ln>ben_goodger: sure, i can speak german.
10:15<ben_goodger>ah yes.
10:15<ben_goodger>well, it's obvious to me also ^_^
10:16<ben_goodger>can we use constructs <span xml:lang="en">like this</span> ? :)
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10:22-!-Osai`off is now known as Osai
10:24<ben_goodger>incidentally, I have just installed linux 2.6.24. initial investigation indicates vastly improved latency
10:25-!-Dominik [~Dominik@dslb-084-063-004-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
10:29<keyweed>'improved latency' .. is that good?
10:32<ben_goodger>yeah
10:32<ben_goodger>it's more responsive, video plays better
10:32<ben_goodger>low-latency applications [video players, gui renderers] need a small amount of processor time, but they need it ten minutes ago. high-latency applications [http servers] need a lot of time, but they aren't fussed about when they get it
10:32-!-mikl [~mikl@0x5733cec6.boanxx22.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Peer Gynt]
10:33<ben_goodger>previous kernels were apparently biased towards the high-latency stuff, which made linux feel slower and less responsive than windows
10:34<ben_goodger>2.6.23 and upward aren't
10:34<ben_goodger>now when the memory manager is fixed, firefox will work properly ^_^
10:35<Eddi|zuHause3>> uname -r
10:35<Eddi|zuHause3>2.6.22.17-0.1-default
10:35<Eddi|zuHause3>you recommend updating then?
10:36<ben_goodger>yeah...
10:37<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... what makes the HD usage grow by 200MB within 3 hours of abcence
10:37<ben_goodger>log spew?
10:37<HMage>coffee spew?
10:37<ben_goodger>torrents?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause3>/home partition, torrents go on another partition
10:38<DaleStan><Phantasm^> How do I see *FULL* changelog no matter how big it is? <-- Easy: "svn log svn://svn.openttd.org" And be prepared for a multiple megabytes of output.
10:38<ben_goodger>ah
10:38<ben_goodger>hm
10:39<Eddi|zuHause3>is there a command that lists all files modified in the last x hours?
10:40<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: filesystem-specific...
10:41-!-dR3x4cK [~Miranda@129.187.61.232] has joined #openttd
10:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i mean like "find /home <how to check for modification time>"
10:41<@peter1138>Hmm, so...
10:41<@peter1138>-newer
10:42<Phantasm^>DaleStan: I don't have svn myself, so ...
10:42<Eddi|zuHause3>-ctime N
10:43<DaleStan>Phantasm^: And whose fault is that?
10:44<Phantasm^>DaleStan: It is svn's fault that user can't get full changelog without having some program himself.
10:44-!-Phantasm^ is now known as Phantasm
10:44-!-Dominik [~Dominik@dslb-084-063-004-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:45<DaleStan>And it's K&R's fault that user can't get a executable without both a compiler and a linker?
10:45<Phantasm>Or fault of the one who configured it. Not sure if svn allows it.
10:45<Phantasm>...
10:45<Eddi|zuHause3>it's IRC's fault that you need a client to access it
10:46<Eddi|zuHause3>it's the internets' fault that you need a browser to view it
10:46<Phantasm>The problem here is: It is too damn hard to get a full changelog out of OTTD.
10:46<DaleStan>It's Microsoft's fault you need a program to read word documents?
10:46<HMage>it's your fault that you need a key to open the door
10:46<ben_goodger>Phantasm^: install it then..?
10:46<ben_goodger>Phantasm: bollocks
10:46<ben_goodger>DaleStan: actually, that last one's correct
10:46<Phantasm>ben_goodger: The thing is I don't want to.
10:46<+glx>Phantasm: the log is available on http
10:46<DaleStan>And who's fault is *that*?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a matter of three clicks to install tortoise svn
10:46<Phantasm>glx: Url?
10:47<HMage>Phantasm: well, you can get full changelog from nightly downloads :D
10:47<DaleStan>svn.openttd.org, I expect.
10:47<+glx>svn.openttd.org or hg.openttd.org or git.openttd.org
10:47<@Belugas>don;t give him, he did n';t said "please"
10:47<Eddi|zuHause3>DaleStan: whose
10:47<DaleStan>... right. I got it right the first time, at least.
10:47<Phantasm>I once searched for it from OTTD's site and didn't find it. And I have twice asked for it but have never been given a way to find full changelog of svn.
10:47<DaleStan>Easy: "svn log svn://svn.openttd.org" And be prepared for a multiple megabytes of output.
10:48<Phantasm>glx: First one of those at least doesn't give full changelog. You only get small pieces of it.
10:48<ben_goodger>DaleStan: he doesn't want to install svn, therefore he shouldn't have to and it's svn's fault it's not an http server
10:48<+glx>then you don't know how to click on links
10:48<hylje>you can access svn through http
10:48<Phantasm>glx: zip link doesn't give it.
10:49<Phantasm>I did download it and I did only find changelog of beta releases (ie. it didn't contain changes after latest beta).
10:49<+glx>read it online
10:49<Phantasm>I want it full and not some 30 entries at a time.
10:49<+glx>http://hg.openttd.org:8000/svn/trunk.hg/shortlog
10:49<Phantasm>I want to be able to do *SEARCH* on the full log.
10:49<hylje>well use svn/hg/git log then
10:50<Eddi|zuHause3>tortoise has that
10:50<Phantasm>And my own way of searching and not some builtin search there prolly is on top right.
10:50<HMage>hylje: he wants to get a cookie without opening the jar
10:50<+glx>and there's a textbox for searching
10:50<+glx>you type the text you search for and press enter
10:51<Phantasm>glx: I want to use my own search and not the builtin search. Thus I want the full changelog.
10:51<hylje>then use svn log
10:51<Phantasm>And I don't want to be forced to install svn to get it.
10:51<ben_goodger>Phantasm: your own way of searching? do you want the browser to perform a search based on interpretive dance?
10:51<hylje>there is no other way
10:51<Eddi|zuHause3>that'd be a cool feature for once ;)
10:51*ben_goodger wiggles hands, hoping for the wikipedia article on "laziness"... nope, didn't work.
10:51<Phantasm>To start with: Getting full changelog is too hard.
10:51<@Belugas>http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/patches/GimmeMore.jpg
10:51<ben_goodger>Belugas: indeed ^_^
10:52<Eddi|zuHause3>getting the full changelog is trivially easy
10:52<+glx>I usually do svn log | grep "what I want" | less
10:52<+glx>works well
10:52<HMage>glx: probably there's a problem with using command line tools
10:52<@Belugas>hey... a little knowledge and effort is required...
10:52<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: but you have to install a client to use this protocol! it's too hard!
10:52<Eddi|zuHause3>svn log | grep "what I want" | more
10:52<HMage>svn log | grep "what I don't want" | less
10:53<hylje>HMage: grep -i
10:53<Eddi|zuHause3>forgot -v
10:53<+glx>I prefer less (can go up and down)
10:53-!-Dominik [~Dominik@dslb-084-063-024-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
10:53<DaleStan>I remember once being told that "less is more".
10:53<Eddi|zuHause3>glx: yes, but i don't want less [usually] ;=
10:53<ben_goodger>Phantasm: you have reached the point where we cannot mock you more effectively than you are mocking yourself
10:53<HMage>lulz
10:54<HMage>that's the first time I used that word
10:54<hylje>epic lulz!!!
10:55<HMage>I plead the fifth! I want access to everything without any effort right now!
10:55<hylje>and with the exact tool i'm proficient with
10:56<Eddi|zuHause3>HMage: "the fifth [ammendment]" is the one with the right to remain silent [and that silence not be used against you]
10:56<HMage>there's good things there, though, Phantasm, you can use command-line svn client which doesn't require any installation
10:57<HMage>but unfortunately you need to know how to use command line
10:58<Eddi|zuHause3>5020486 .beagle/Indexes/FileSystemIndex/PrimaryIndex <- wtf?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause3>what do i need beagle for anyway?
10:58<@peter1138>searching :D
10:59<Eddi|zuHause3>i know what's on my HD ;)
11:00<hylje>now you don't have to
11:01<HMage>I don't know what's in my body, event. Why would I need to know what's in my PC? :D
11:06<Volley>HMage: ... maybe nature should have provided the sourcecode to your DNA ... so you could check ... and update yourself ...
11:07<Volley>... or is DNA the sourcecode? if so, then it's badly documented!
11:08<Eddi|zuHause3>by the GPL definition "source code" is the represantation of the program that you prefer to make modifications to
11:09-!-Slowpoke [~Lobster@dslb-088-073-211-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
11:15<Ammler>Now, since 0.6 has its own branch, can we apply Roujin's patch for ingame rivers to trunk? http://www.openttdcoop.org/ammler/ingame_rivers/ingame_rivers_v2.diff
11:16<ben_goodger>rivers?
11:17<Ammler>else, at least remove the client hack prevention...
11:17<ben_goodger>Volley, Eddi|zuHause3: the DNA is, technically, the source code. unfortunately, the source is mostly comment lines filled with random bits and undocumented code. each program also demands its own build environment
11:18<ben_goodger>*undocumented classes
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>20080328 13:00:57.7747 32144 IndexH WARN EX: Caught exception trying to execute Beagle.IndexHelper.RemoteIndexerExecutor. Sending error response
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>20080328 13:00:57.7747 32144 IndexH WARN EX: System.IO.IOException: Disk full.
11:21<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: hurrah
11:22-!-GoneWacko [~gonewacko@adsl-58.36.Static.ssp.fi] has quit [Quit: You just lost the game]
11:23<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: delete ~/.beagle and remove beagled, beagled-helper, beagle-search, best from your startup list
11:23<ben_goodger>or just uninstall beagle..
11:26<@Belugas>funny... been signing in english for the last quarter. Just signing sounds, not caring about the meaning... and the meaning i've just discovered by reading the words
11:26-!-nicfer [~chatzilla@168.226.106.223] has joined #openttd
11:26<@Belugas>i'm nuts
11:27<ben_goodger>?!
11:29-!-divo [~asd@x1-6-00-18-39-d3-e9-f6.k899.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
11:30<@peter1138>Ammler: "remove the client hack prevention" ???
11:33<ln>takes 31.6 seconds to compile ottd trunk. is that a good result?
11:33<Phantasm>Ok, here is some reading for you.. Read it and answer the following questions without any mocking.. OTTD website directs bug reports to forum or IRC. Say, a user finds a bug and want to help the development by reporting the bug to IRC as it is more interactive than forum. Now, the user comes to IRC and states the bug here. Then a surprice surprice he is told 'make a patch'. But let's assume the user is a windows user who isn't willing to or doesn't know how ...
11:33<@peter1138>Yeah, debug or release?
11:33<Phantasm>... to make the patch. Then let's assume someone in here takes a note of the bug so it might be fixed some day. Of course no-one can really give any approximation on when the bug will be fixed. So, the user wants to check at times if there has been any progress on the bug, and comes here asking about it only to get people to say 'check the changelog' and then the user goes look for changelog and can't find it. He then asks here and is told 'dl some svn prog ...
11:33<Phantasm>... and type this command'.. So, the questions.. 1) How much effort should it take for a user to report a bug? 2) How do you think users feel about reporting bugs when they are told 'go fix it yourself' ? 3) How much effor should it take for the user to be able to check if the bug has been fixed? 4) With all this lack of userfriendly and mocking attitude, do you think the user ever comes to report another bug he may find? 5) Do you want that only developers ...
11:33<Phantasm>... ever report bugs and you always treat all bug reporters as such? Don't you think it is valuable for the development of the game to get to know about the bugs?
11:33<ln>Phantasm: pastebin.
11:34<Eddi|zuHause3>paste.openttd.org
11:34<Phantasm>I can't get it into pastebin any easier than you do.
11:34<ln>peter1138: whatever a pure ./configure without parameters produces.
11:34<@peter1138>hmm, what system? :o
11:34<ln>peter1138: my 1-day old Core2Quad 2.4 GHz
11:34<@peter1138>ahhhhhh
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11:35<@peter1138>with the appropriate make -j whatever, i take it
11:35<Phantasm>I would like one OP to answer those questions. Currently peter1138 and Belugas seem to be around.
11:35<ln>yeah, -j8
11:35<Eddi|zuHause3>congratulations, Phantasm has earned the top spot of the brand new /ignore list, he gets a fine *plonk* medal for remembering
11:35<@peter1138>takes 1 minute on my athlon X2 5600
11:35<@peter1138>which is 2.8 GHz
11:36<@peter1138>Phantasm: what the hell are you actually talking abourt?
11:36<@peter1138>-r
11:36-!-Volley [~worf@84.119.67.68] has quit []
11:37<Ammler>peter1138: if you would change that part: http://paste.openttd.org/1555
11:37<@peter1138>Ammler... no
11:37<Ammler>then it would be possible with pachted clients to build rivers
11:37<Phantasm>peter1138: I reported a bug some months ago in here. Belugas was around at the time and after describing it to him, he did agree it is a bug. After that I have now been trying to get some information on if there is any progress and mocking is all I get.
11:37<@peter1138>what's the FS# of the bug?
11:38-!-ben_goodger_ [~ben@host81-153-29-28.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:38<ln>Phantasm: do you have a patch that fixes the bug?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause3>bugs go to bugs.openttd.org, and you automatically get an email if a bug you reported got fixed
11:38<Ammler>[16:37] <peter1138> Ammler... no <-- ??
11:38<Phantasm>peter1138: Belugas never told me.
11:39<@peter1138>so you didn't actually report it
11:39<@peter1138>so how are we supposed to know
11:39<Phantasm>I reported the bug here in IRC as http://www.openttd.org/contact.php stated to.
11:39<Phantasm>"Individual developers are reachable at the following addresses. Note these are not meant if you have a question about a feature, bug or want something implemented. You should direct these questions to the forums or in our IRC channel."
11:39<ben_goodger_>Phantasm: that says "questions about bugs", not "reporting bugs"
11:39<@peter1138>Links
11:39<@peter1138>bugs.openttd.org: Flyspray bug-tracker / task manager
11:40<@peter1138>if you didn't report it there, then do so.
11:40<Phantasm>ben_goodger_: Well, whatever. Finding the bug tracker from that website is a pain anyway.
11:40<@peter1138>it's on the site
11:40<@peter1138>it's in the topic
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11:41<Zuu>" 3) How much effor should it take for the user to be able to check if the bug has been fixed?" <-- read the changelog when you upgrade. If you use windows there are tools that extract the new entries in the changelog when you update.
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11:44<ben_goodger>Phantasm: I hope you become less lazy by the time you're old enough to get a job. telling an employer "the keyboard is too hard to type with, so it's your fault I'm not doing my reports" isn't going to be a very good career move
11:45<ben_goodger>I can imagine you driving: "why should I put it into drive? it should work out what direction I want to go by myself."
11:46<@Belugas>even if i agree the situation is a bit ironic, i think enough nails have been planted on pha
11:46<@Belugas>Phantasm 's head, already
11:46<ben_goodger>very well
11:46<@Belugas>and i sincerely do hope he has the message now :)
11:47<ben_goodger>doubt it. I've been saying it for about half an hour
11:48-!-Morloth [~bram.ridd@83.80.64.130] has quit [Quit: Awaaaay!!]
11:48<Phantasm>http://hack.fi/~ghost/bug_report.log <-- There is irclog of the day. By quick clance it goes at least to about 20:30.
11:50-!-Dominik [~Dominik@dslb-084-063-089-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
11:51<ben_goodger>...
11:51<Phantasm>Anyway, at this point I have totally given my hope on the whole OTTD project. The bug is descriped in there so do as you please with it. The initial bug description might be a bit hard to interpret, but reading the whole log will at least get the bug out of that as that at least Belugas seemed to have understood it by that time. I don't give a fuck what you do about it nor do I give a fuck about OTTD at all anymore.
11:52<@peter1138>Cool
11:52<Phantasm>All I'm saying that if it is this hard for a user to report a bug so it gets properly handled, don't expect any user to do so, at least after first attempt.
11:52*keyweed starts crying
11:52<Eddi|zuHause3>yay, he finally reverted to insults ;)
11:52<@peter1138>Cos we don't give a fuck about you
11:52<@Belugas>@openttd bugs
11:52<@DorpsGek>Belugas: Open Bugs: 23; Not assigned: 18; Closed this week: 11; Opened this week: 12
11:52*ben_goodger hums a certain biblical tune beginning with "H"
11:52<@Belugas>strange... 23 bugs...
11:52<@Belugas>really hard to reach indeed
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11:57<ben_goodger>against all probability, I'm now interested to know what the actual bug was
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12:03<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not even a bug, he's whining that his industries close faster than he can service them
12:04<ben_goodger>hm
12:05<@Belugas>basically, i think it is related to the big maps. New industries are created at the same rate on small map as on big maps
12:05<ben_goodger>ah
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12:06<ben_goodger>and they close at a given rate also, I suppose.
12:06<@Belugas>no
12:06<@Belugas>they close only if they are not served, or not well enough, or if production decreases to nothing
12:06<ben_goodger>well, yes
12:06<Eddi|zuHause3>closing is on a per-industry rate, opening is on a per-map rate
12:07<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause3: indeed
12:07<Eddi|zuHause3>so they naturally diverge on bigger maps
12:07<@Belugas>but random creation is happening only once a month, and only 3% of chances, no matter what the map size is
12:07-!-Volley [~worf@84.119.67.68] has joined #openttd
12:07<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, it's a feature request at best
12:08<Eddi|zuHause3>should go into "game balancing"
12:08<ben_goodger>so a map that starts with 1000 industries will close n% and open n per year, which could mean closing 50 and opening five, while a map that starts with 100 industries will close 5 and open five
12:08<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, something like that
12:08<ben_goodger>right.
12:08<@Belugas>yup
12:09<@Belugas>that's how i read it
12:09<@Belugas>technically, it is not a bug
12:09<@Belugas>as the system doe snot change
12:09<ben_goodger>that sounds like a bug to me, albeit a one-liner and the most minor of minor bugs
12:09<@Belugas>i am more viewing it as game balancing
12:10<@Belugas>that might not be as simple as that. the one liner in question may be a bit more
12:10<ben_goodger>hmm
12:10<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a design issue, not a one-liner
12:11<ben_goodger>changing from 3% to (3%/1000 tiles) shouldn't be too difficult
12:11<@Belugas>design issue? not sure
12:11<ben_goodger>it's probably a lot more complex in c, though.
12:11<@Belugas>ben_goodger, you got it wrong
12:11<Eddi|zuHause3>the "industry density" in the difficulty option should not only define the initial industry spread
12:11<Eddi|zuHause3>but also balance the "fix point" reached by industry opening and closing
12:12<@Belugas>if you increase the percentage credited for industry creation, you reduce the possibility of random productin change
12:12<Eddi|zuHause3>where this "fix point" may vary with the connectivity of the player's network
12:12<@Belugas>wrong again Eddi|zuHause3. closing value doe snot exists, therefore cannot be conputed
12:13<ben_goodger>mmm
12:13<Eddi|zuHause3>it's all random chances, the "value" might not exist, but the stochastic calculation can be made
12:14<ben_goodger>so the rate of opening industries needs to be linked to the existing industry density
12:14*Belugas googles the whole sentence ;)
12:14-!-Singaporekid [~notme@cm210.epsilon123.maxonline.com.sg] has quit []
12:15<ben_goodger>such that the industry density is "topped up" shortly after an undersupplied industry closes
12:15-!-pm|work is now known as planetmaker
12:15<@Belugas>i disagree totally
12:15-!-planetmaker is now known as pm|work
12:15<ben_goodger>:(
12:15<@Belugas>never it has been said that the nunmber of industries should remain constant
12:16<ben_goodger>well, the industry density is chosen by the player, is it not?
12:16<@Belugas>nor that the industry density is linked to appearance eiother
12:16<@Belugas>yes, ben_goodger, but only for stating a game
12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>no, but they will, when the chance to open and the chance to close get roughly equal
12:16<@Belugas>not during a game
12:16-!-welterde [welterde@gandalf.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a dynamic balance
12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>the chance to open is constant
12:17<@Belugas>it is constant indeed
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>the chance to close drops when the number of industries drops
12:17<ben_goodger>if it does not remain constant, then either the map will become grossly overpopulated with industries, or the map will become empty save for those industries the player is already serving, at which point the game becomes pointless
12:17<@Belugas>not at all
12:17<@Belugas>hem.. not at all directed to Eddi|zuHause3
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12:17<ben_goodger>evidently
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>because "global close" = "number of industries" * "local close probability"
12:18<hylje>can one multiply strings with each other
12:18<@Belugas>nope. global close = service and decrease
12:18<Eddi|zuHause3>like ben_goodger, with 1000 industries, on average 50 close, with 100, on average 5 close [numbers are made up]
12:18<ben_goodger>hurrah, I'm helping
12:18<ben_goodger>hylje: ...no...
12:18<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje: yes.
12:19<@Belugas>they do close for reasons, not out of probabilty
12:19<ben_goodger>hylje: though you can multiply strings by integers, it doesn't make sense to multiply characters
12:19<@Belugas>and the creation is totally random
12:19<ben_goodger>Belugas: you need to have precisely one industry opening for every one that closes, otherwise the map becomes overpopulated or empty [as I said]
12:19<Eddi|zuHause3>Belugas: yes, the reason is unserviced-ness, but still then there is a probability
12:20<@Belugas>ben_goodger, not at all. stupid assumption, sorry to say
12:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: do you know, whats happen with MB?
12:20<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause3, totally agrreing
12:20<ben_goodger>why would it not do that?
12:20<Eddi|zuHause3>also, there is economy-stability setting, which opens another probability for closing of serviced industries
12:20<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: what should i know?
12:20<@Belugas>because there is no link and there will ne ver be between closing and opening
12:21<ben_goodger>I'm saying what it _should_ do
12:21<Ammler>www.ttdpatch.de isn't available anymore
12:21<@Belugas>there never was ther notion that industries should remian constant on the map
12:21<@Belugas>it should not, as it doe snot make sens
12:21<ben_goodger>if industries open continually the map will become overpopulated. if unserved industries close without opening new ones, the map will become empty save for those that are already served
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12:21<@Belugas>industries do close even if they are served
12:22<Ammler>he is absent around 2 months now and you are also a german guy, so maybe you know something more :-)
12:22<ben_goodger>in that case it'll become even emptier
12:22<@Belugas>plus, trhe industry that might be created once an month is not even garanteed to be created
12:22<Eddi|zuHause3>Belugas: what i am saying is, this probability can be made adjustable, depending how the player behaves (like if unserviced industries can "expect" the player to in the future connect this industry)
12:23<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause3, that is one option, but i have to admit i'm not too fund of it
12:23<@Belugas>i'd rather not "Guess"
12:23*ben_goodger goes for dinner
12:24<@Belugas>the way i see it would be to only loop a x number of times the lines 2219 to 2225 in industry_cmd.cpp
12:24<@Belugas>like if the map is 2 times bigger then 256*256, loop 2 times
12:25<Eddi|zuHause3>you mean increase the chance of creation
12:25<@Belugas>no
12:25<@Belugas>if yu increase the chance, you decrease the random production chances
12:25<Eddi|zuHause3>maybe i talk too mathematically ;)
12:25<@Belugas>so you are thus debalancing the game
12:26<@Belugas>and me too code wise :D
12:26<Eddi|zuHause3>if you throw the dice twice, you get twice the chance to have a 6
12:26<Eddi|zuHause3>while the chance to get a 6 with one throw does not change
12:26<@Belugas>true
12:27<@Belugas>that is whyt i want to loop instrad of increasing the chance
12:27<Eddi|zuHause3>so on average you get twice the amount of industries
12:27<@Belugas>yup
12:27<@Belugas>that's the idea
12:28<@Belugas>i'm just not sure if it's a good solution at all
12:28<@Belugas>but it's the only one i see so far
12:28<@Belugas>and... let say that i have another project going on
12:28<Eddi|zuHause3>so, the "fix point", when the creation chance and the closing chance is equal, is twice as high as well
12:28<Eddi|zuHause3>this immediately raises two questions
12:29<@Belugas>hu???
12:29<@Belugas>the closing part of the monthly loop will not change
12:29<Eddi|zuHause3>when is the map "twice as big"? (2*256)x(256) or (2*256)x(2*256)?
12:29<@Belugas>when the NUMBER of tiles doubles
12:30<Eddi|zuHause3>that is not necessarily what the user wants
12:30<@Belugas>so more 2*(256*256)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause3>some people want bigger maps to have more space inbetween
12:30<Eddi|zuHause3>in this case the second one would be more appropriate
12:31<Eddi|zuHause3>second question: should this random chance be affected by the difficulty setting?
12:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12466 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h order.h order_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: move DestinationID to a more logical location.
12:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12467 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move DepotID to a more logical location.
12:33<@Belugas>2 times was an example, Eddi|zuHause3 and no, the random is not going to be affected
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12468 /trunk/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move some type related stuff from station.h (and openttd.h) to station_type.h.
12:33<Eddi|zuHause3>i would say it makes sense to do so
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12:34<Phantasm>Wow, someone actually read the bug (or whatever one calls it) report from the log url. I still have a feeling that no-one will add a bug report to flyspray and it is forgotten when the conversation ends.
12:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12469 /trunk/ (11 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split type related stuff from group.h (and openttd.h) to group_type.h.
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12:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12470 /trunk/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split order related types from order.h (and openttd.h) to order_type.h.
12:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12471 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h signs.h): -Codechange: move SignID to a more logical location.
12:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12472 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h texteff.hpp vehicle_func.h vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: remove unneeded declaration of ViewPort and DrawPixelInfo.
12:39-!-anhedral is now known as dih
12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12473 /trunk/src/ (engine.h openttd.h): -Codechange: move EngineList to a more logical location.
12:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12474 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split type related stuff from waypoints from waypoint.h (and openttd.h) to waypoint_type.h.
12:43<Eddi|zuHause3>Multikill!
12:44<Eddi|zuHause3>Ownage!
12:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12475 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp order_type.h): -Codechange: cleanup coding style in news_gui.cpp.
12:49-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*ghost@hack.fi] by peter1138
12:49-!-Phantasm was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [foad]
12:49-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*ghost@hack.fi] by peter1138
12:51<Volley>Eddi|zuHause3: hmm - seems you need a patch that plays the old unreal tournament "Multikill", "Killing Spree", ... sounds when you let some trains or road vehicles crash into each other ...
12:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i was talking about the commits
12:52<hylje>that could be good
12:52<Volley>oh ... ok :)
12:55<Sacro>FIRST BLOOD
12:55<@peter1138>HEAD SHOT
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>you killed him!
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>you bastard!
12:57<hylje>M-M-MONSTER KILL
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13:05<Sacro>A man walks into a pet shop, puts a bomb on the counter and says, "You've got one minute to get out of here before the place blows!"
13:05<Sacro>A Tortoise in the back shouts, "You bastard"
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13:08<Digitalfox>lol
13:09<Sacro>pffft
13:09<Sacro>ricer :p
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13:13<Sacro>lo bob27
13:13<bob27>hi
13:17<Sacro>has anybody noticed http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Image:Benstemperatepack.png ?
13:17<bob27>ouch
13:18<bob27>the gaphics look good, not the design
13:18<hylje>how realistic
13:19<Ammler>hoizontal track isn't nice
13:20<bob27>oh, i was talking about what it looks like
13:22<ben_goodger>looks good
13:24<bob27>yes, i think it looks good too , just look at the symbol it makes.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Germany_1933.svg
13:25<ben_goodger>a pleasing geometric shape
13:26<bob27>.....................................................
13:26<ben_goodger>well, it is
13:26<bob27>not what it represents :(
13:26<ben_goodger>it turns 90 degrees to the right every few tiles
13:27<ben_goodger>if it turns to the left instead, it's perfectly harmless, to the extent that a road pattern is harmful
13:27<bob27>i guess you're right, never mind :)
13:28<ben_goodger>and if you make it turn 0.1 degree every 0.1 tiles, it's a spiral. geometry is fun :)
13:29<bob27>no it isn't! the geometery book I had said "for the enjoyment and challenge" I can tell you, that class is not enjoyable!
13:29<ben_goodger>heh
13:29<ben_goodger>I haven't done any such thing yet, we're only up to computer science ^_^
13:29<ben_goodger>hurrah for the first-fit decreasing algorithm! XD
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13:34<Sacro>http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/53465/1200582535/mapbig.gif
13:37<Prof_Frink>Sacro: That hurts my brain
13:37-!-[1]Roujin [~Roujin@mnch-4d043db1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 481 seconds]
13:38<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_symbol#Swastika
13:38<Sacro>Prof_Frink: it hurts more that some stations are right
13:38<Sacro>Euston i belive is correct
13:38<Prof_Frink>Aye, 'tis
13:38<Sacro>and is farringdon?
13:39<Sacro>or maybe barbican
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: there's two paddingtons
13:40<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: so there is
13:40-!-raimar2 [~hawk@p5489FE1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:41<Sacro>one must be northbound and one southbound
13:41<Prof_Frink>Lots of the stations are right.
13:41<Sacro>barens court is
13:42<Sacro>i think blackfriers and mansion hosue are too
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>what's the sense of the victoria line when it does not pass victoria?
13:43<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause3: Umm...
13:43<Prof_Frink>Sacro: While you're in that corner, Temple.
13:43-!-anhedral is now known as dih
13:43<dih>there is no spoon
13:44<Prof_Frink>Yes there is.
13:44<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: why not
13:44<Sacro>there was 2 Victorias
13:45<Eddi|zuHause3>?
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13:52*Prof_Frink banishes Sacro to Terminal 5
13:52<Prof_Frink>(why aren't you in t'other channel?)
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13:57<Digitalfox>Sacro in that map where is Big Ben?
13:57<Sacro>Digitalfox: god knows
13:57<Sacro>Prof_Frink: personal reasons
13:58<Digitalfox>found it westminster
14:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12476 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split type engine related types from engine.h (and openttd.h) to engine_type.h.
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14:06<dih>Rubidium has been busy today :-P
14:08<Digitalfox>dih let the man have his fun :)
14:08-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-28.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
14:08<dih>let me have mine!
14:09<dih>nofair
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14:09<Digitalfox>Want my fun? Convertiing 60GB of 291 files from ogm to avi x264...
14:11<bob27>lol
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14:12<Wolf01>hello
14:12<Prof_Frink>Digitalfox: Surely that's just `for i in *; do mencoder blahblahblah $i; done` and go to bed
14:12<Digitalfox>no, one by hand in command line with ogmdemuxer
14:13<Digitalfox>every ogm has 2 audio tracks so i have to manually select the one i want to pass for avi
14:14<ln>i'm pretty sure an avi can contain multiple audio tracks too.
14:14<Digitalfox>There's just no good tools for ogm.. Must tools have been abandoned.. But i love this TV Show so...
14:14<Digitalfox>avidemux crashes when opeing this files..
14:14<bob27>still it must be fun :P
14:14<Digitalfox>virtualdub + mod don'tt open.. etc...
14:14-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-28.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
14:14<bob27>oh jeez
14:15<+glx>ffmpeg can do that too
14:15<Eddi|zuHause3>you're making things more difficult than they have to be
14:15<bob27>manual labor is good
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14:16<Digitalfox>So let me explain again.. I have 291 files in OGM format with dual sound ( Jap and English ) and separated sub *.ssa.. And i want to creat Avi with codec x264 files with just jap sound and with the sub already encoded in it.. Any automatic tool for that?
14:17<Digitalfox>Because the most popular ones don't open or crash
14:19<ben_goodger>ffmpeg is your man
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14:19<ben_goodger>...most likely.
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>when mplayer can play it, mencoder can transform it
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14:20<Eddi|zuHause3>although i use avidemux for my conversion purposes
14:20<Digitalfox>Well what i'm doing is using OGMdemuxer to separate the OGM in 3 files.. The video and the 2 tracks.. Then i use avidemux and chose the video file and the track i want.. I also add the ssa sub and convert to a AVI file..
14:20<Sacro>ffmpeg, mencoder, vlc?
14:20<Sacro>cat?
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14:21<Digitalfox>It's working just takes time.. :(
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>you can call avidemux with parameters from the command line
14:21<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 avidemux crashes when opening any of this OGM files
14:22<Eddi|zuHause3>so?
14:22<Digitalfox>so if it crashes how can i use avidemux?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>forget it...
14:23<Digitalfox>But thanks for the help guys :)
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14:39<fjb>Hello
14:41<bob27>hi
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14:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12477 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1883]: timetable times for aircraft were always doubled.
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14:56*fjb hides from the secret CIA planes.
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15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12478 /branches/0.6/ (11 files in 8 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (12477, 12453, 12448, 12443, 12439, 12417):
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Timetable times for aircraft were always doubled [FS#1883] (r12477)
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove broken endian-dependent code and unnecessary rgb to bgr swapping [FS#1880] (r12453)
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: Unify RPM spec files (r12448)
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Add: OpenTTD's version to the config file to 'ease' getting the correct version on bugreports (r12443)
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not 'disable' the drawing of autorail overlays when the tile is 'error'-marked (red pulsating selection) [FS#1871] (r12439)
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15:17<bob27>ooo thanks!
15:17*Rubidium thinks he's missing something
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15:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12479 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1723]: Simplify the method used to resize the industry view window. The window is now shown the correct size so the resize button is also removed.
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15:58<jez9999>hello
16:09<ln>you again
16:10<@peter1138>INTERGALACTIC
16:11<fjb>Spaceports?
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16:14<@peter1138>PLANETARY
16:14<@Belugas>naaa.. Beasty Boys
16:15<bob27>Another Dimension
16:16<jez9999>Is there a way to automatically group vehicles whose orders are shared?
16:16<@peter1138>Only by using the item in the 'manage' menu
16:16<jez9999>that's not automatic
16:17<Rubidium>why would you need to do it automatically?
16:17<@peter1138>that's why i said 'only', heh
16:17<jez9999>so you can quickly view groups of trains with shared orders without going to the trouble of manually grouping them?
16:18<jez9999>actually it might be useful to identify whether you forgot to share one or two trains' orders, as they would be ungrouped
16:20<@Belugas>Button [Play it For Me, I am an AI]
16:22<jez9999>heh
16:22<jez9999>well i always hear arguments against convenience like that
16:22<jez9999>i guess i just like to create tidy, smart networks quickly
16:22<jez9999>any help tools i can get are good
16:25*Belugas thinks the fun is to actually use the system, and not see it doing stuff on itself.
16:26<@Belugas>granted, trains are fun watching,
16:26<@Belugas>but tracks layout are even more fun to do
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16:26<@Belugas>i guess it's just a personnal preference///
16:28<Eddi|zuHause3>ANNIHILATION!
16:32<Sacro>TOTAL?
16:33*peter1138 Phuns
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16:36<@peter1138>ARGH
16:36<@peter1138>HICCOUGHS
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16:52<dih>lol @ http://electricpotential.net/ircstats/openttd2.html
16:52-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41673.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:52-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:52<dih>Is debian__ stupid or just asking too many questions
16:52<dih>Bjarni!
16:53<dih>:-)
16:53<jez9999>you could argue that shared orders are 'cheating' or taking too much work away
16:53<dih>?
16:53<Rubidium>dih: you once said that you wanted much questions
16:53-!-Slowpoke [~Slowpoke@dslb-088-073-211-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
16:53<dih>did i?
16:54<@Bjarni>didn't you?
16:54-!-lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
16:54<dih>i at least dont recall that
16:54<ln>Bjarni!
16:54-!-Slowpoke [~Slowpoke@dslb-088-073-211-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit []
16:54<dih>ln: you're late
16:54<ln>dih: no, Bjarni was early.
16:54<dih>lol
16:54-!-Slowpoke [~Slowpoke@dslb-088-073-211-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
16:55<dih>chuck norris (while fishing) "i have no idea who your father is, but as long as i am fishing here, you aint gonna work on the water!"
16:55<dih>*walk
16:55<henkie>jez9999, you could, but i would not agree
16:55<jez9999>nor would i
16:56<henkie>must fun of openttd is just watching your trains move
16:56<jez9999>but belugas et al seem to think that unless you're actually sitting in that train driving it, you're not playing properly because it's too easy
16:56<jez9999>Bjarni: thanks for the extra code
16:56<jez9999>fixed many of the problems; there is still one significant issue
16:56<@peter1138>yeah, there's a patch for that
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16:57<henkie>more advanced rules would be nice
16:58<henkie>like when to stop at a station, or maybe more advanced signals
16:58*dih rules
16:58<dih>i think that is pretty advanced
16:58<henkie>:)
16:58<henkie>or maybe i am just using my signals wrong
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16:58<henkie>still not 100% clear when to use what kind of signal
16:59<@Bjarni><jez9999> fixed many of the problems; there is still one significant issue <-- usually such a statement is followed by an explanation of the issue
16:59<Eddi|zuHause3>try yapp, henkie
16:59<@Bjarni>right now I have no idea of what your problem is
16:59<@Bjarni>jez9999: what is your problem? :)
17:00<jez9999>Bjarni: when you're calling CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE without DC_EXEC as a flag, with an all-or-nothing flag, and you don't have the money to upgrade the trains, the command fails. it needs to always succeed and return the predicted cost, no matter how much cash you have.
17:00<henkie>Eddi|zuHause3, what do you mean?
17:00<henkie>yet another .... ?
17:00<@Bjarni>hmm
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>yapp is an improved PBS signal patch
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>most of the time you need only one signal type
17:01<@Bjarni>I will have to think about that one but I'm not sure if it's possible
17:01<@Bjarni>jez9999: but why do you want to know the price of a task that fails? :)
17:01<jez9999>someone shift-ctrl-drags; only depots with trains in are selected
17:02<jez9999>i want to return the predicted cost of upgrading all depots, no matter how much cash they have
17:02<@Bjarni>I will look into it
17:02<@Bjarni>when I get time :p
17:02<jez9999>cheers
17:02<jez9999>at the moment, if your command fails, i add £100 million onto the cost :-)
17:03<henkie>may i suggest something else? for every ctrl-command or crtl-shift-command to create an extra button in the GUI, so ppl know the feature exists?
17:04<jez9999>yeah, when i go away and come back to playing OpenTTD i ALWAYS forget about ctrl-click to share orders
17:04<jez9999>without fail
17:04*fjb suggest to implement shunting, so people can play Towers of Hanoy with trains.
17:05<henkie>shortcuts are really nice, but they shouldnt be the only way to access it
17:05<jez9999>i think im going to implement an auto-group-vehicles-with-shared-options patch
17:05<jez9999>:-)
17:05<henkie>just my 2,5 cents
17:05<henkie>or just upgrade the in-game help
17:05<Rubidium>henkie: any idea how much buttons that would yield?
17:06<henkie>Rubidium, maybe some modifier which acts like a ctrl or shift?
17:06<henkie>like the remove-button
17:06<henkie>which is also accessible with the ctrl (which i only found out most recently)
17:07<Rubidium>but not always :(
17:08<henkie>true
17:08-!-Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:08*fjb ctrl-clicks jez9999. Indeed it doesn't always work.
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17:09<henkie>for example the ctrl-drag signals auto-complete a whole lot of rail, i bet not everybody is even aware of it
17:10<henkie>auto-completes
17:10<jez9999>it does?
17:10<jez9999>heh
17:10<henkie>it does :)
17:10<jez9999>maybe a 'shortcut keys' button somewhere prominent that pops up a dialog of ctrl keys
17:10*Rubidium wonders whether a multipage tooltip for the signal thingy is what people want
17:11<Slowpoke>there is a wiki page for those shortcuts
17:11<mrfrenzy>I want it to not default to semaphores
17:11<mrfrenzy>I hate em
17:11<jez9999>ive never really understood why you have electric AND semaphore signals.
17:11*fjb juggest a RTFM tooltip.
17:11<jez9999>shouldnt that be a newGRF thing?
17:11<henkie>Rubidium, that's not what i said :)
17:12<henkie>just some hint the option is available
17:12<Slowpoke>mrfrenzy, you can set the year when semaphores disapper in patch-settings to something like 1900 so they won't bother you anymore I think
17:12<henkie>but anyway, it is just a suggestion
17:12<jez9999>Slowpoke: great idea :-)
17:12<jez9999>i'll do that
17:12<Rubidium>maybe it's better to state where the CTRL/SHIFT have no function
17:12<Rubidium>and that's probably only the pause button
17:13<jez9999>Slowpoke: well i see an 'automatically build semaphores before' option
17:13<jez9999>but not a 'get rid of the damn things'
17:13<jez9999>thing is, they have a literally identical function to electric signals, so i don't see the point in using different graphics
17:14<henkie>jez9999, some ppl like the retro feeling :)
17:14<jez9999>then they can install a 'retro' newGRF
17:14<jez9999>but the default only signals should be electric, semaphores seem like an anomoly as you're trying to minimize the cruft in the truk
17:14<jez9999>trunk
17:15<@peter1138>who is?
17:16<Slowpoke>so if you set the "automatically build before"-year to something like 1900 they don't shou up anyways aren't they?
17:16<henkie>jez9999, just adjust the year until they are built
17:16<henkie>no harm
17:16<jez9999>henkie: yeah but you can still accidentally build em with ctrl
17:16<henkie>+as default
17:16<jez9999>which is irritating :-)
17:17<mrfrenzy>I guess if you have a mao that's before electricity got introduced, you'd want semaphores
17:18<henkie>jez9999, true, but lets face it, they are not really THAT annoying :)
17:18<mrfrenzy>they are
17:18<henkie>at least i know the feature is there :)
17:18<mrfrenzy>ugly
17:18*fjb thinks that the default electric signals are really ugly.
17:19<henkie>fjb, yeah, and to tiny
17:19<henkie>one ting Locomotion did better
17:19<henkie>too
17:20<henkie>whole week of work fried my brain
17:20<henkie>the arrows on the rail track where helpful
17:20<henkie>were*
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17:23<jez9999>henkie: erm, i just ctrl-clicked some signals and dragged; it doesnt auto-build the track
17:24<henkie>jez9999, no, but it auto builds the signals on the track
17:25<jez9999>erm
17:25<jez9999>you dont need to hold ctrl for that
17:25<henkie>jez9999, ?
17:25<henkie>i think so
17:26<jez9999>nope
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17:26<jez9999>you just click on an existing signal, and drag along the track
17:27<Rubidium>jez9999: now, on a empty bit of track, click an existing signal, press ctrl and drag one tile into the direction you want it to go to
17:27<henkie>jez9999, i think you misunderstand me, ctrl-drag a signal is way better :)
17:27<jez9999>hmm
17:27<jez9999>how do u make desert towns grow?
17:27<Rubidium>oh noes... it goes around corners
17:27<jez9999>im feeding this one's water tower
17:27<Rubidium>food + water
17:27<jez9999>food, huh? hmm
17:27<jez9999>damn those people need everything
17:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12480 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Change: enable and show asserts in crash.log for MSVC releases by default
17:28<henkie>one more suggestion, regarding the distribution of newgrf files in a multiplayer game. Have the creators of the newgrf register it with the master server, which sets a "allowed to distribute flag", and have it automaticly transferred
17:30<+glx>henkie: already suggested, it's still won't happen
17:30<henkie>dont know how feasible this is
17:30<Rubidium>most newgrf authors do not bother about OpenTTD
17:30<dih>henkie: check the openttdcoop grfpack :-)
17:30<Rubidium>therefor they do not bother about registering
17:30<henkie>glx, well i had to try :)
17:30<Rubidium>therefor only a few percent of the GRFs could possibly be autodownloaded
17:30<dih>we bother about openttd and we bother about newgrf's
17:31<Rubidium>which makes the feature as useless as the current system of not downloading
17:31<Rubidium>furthermore the downloading would make the masterserver more complete and more prone to errors
17:31<dih>and we are working towards certain goals (such as updating grf's)
17:31<Rubidium>s/complete/complex/
17:31<dih>Rubidium: downloading from the master server?
17:32<dih>why would you do that?
17:32<Rubidium>that's what henkie proposes
17:32<dih>oh
17:32<dih>hehe
17:32<henkie>Rubidium, no i didnt
17:32-!-Sacro` is now known as Sacro
17:32<henkie>but i understand
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17:32<henkie>just send the hash to the server
17:33<dih>henkie
17:33<henkie>but if it was already proposed and shot down, i understand :)
17:33<Rubidium>henkie: if the masterserver wouldn't distribute it, then there is absolutely no reason to 'register' the newgrfs to the masterserver
17:33<dih>let the ottd server have a config option, whith a web address where grf's can be found that are currently in use
17:34<dih>i.e. the same way shoot 'em ups specify a web url for downloading maps :-)
17:34<dih>and use wget :-P
17:34<henkie>Rubidium, sure it would, but i dont wanna chase ghosts and drop the subject now
17:34<Ammler>dih: don't forget to implement the readme viewer :P
17:34<dih>hehe
17:34<henkie>dih, would also be fine by me
17:34<dih>you dont need to 'view' the readme
17:35<dih>you must just download the readme with the grf
17:35<dih>as openttd can handle tar's
17:35<dih>you can download a bundle and be happy :-)
17:35<dih>henkie: probably every month?
17:36<henkie>dih, i am not following?
17:36<dih>that this 'feature' is 'proposed' :-P
17:37<henkie>dih, hehe, sorry about that :)
17:37<dih>no need to appologize to me :-P
17:37<dih>i aint a dev :-D
17:37<henkie>:)
17:37<dih>i dont have to listen to it that often :-P
17:37<henkie>dont wanna sound ingrateful, still the best game around for me now
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17:38<henkie>for something that was originally created +10 years ago, is kinda cool :)
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17:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12481 /branches/0.6/projects/ (4 files): [0.6] -Backport r12480 from trunk (default enabling of assertions).
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17:46<Wolf01>michi_cc, I have a savegame where appear the "train is lost message" each time a train parts from a station, but it is made with yapp version 4
17:49<dih>Rubidium: something that just crossed my mind
17:49<jez9999>ctrl-clicking the signals goes around track corners?
17:49<jez9999>cant seem to get that to work at all...
17:49<dih>servers that have the generation seed stored in the config file will as a first game always use that seed
17:49<dih>which basically means you serve the same map at the restart start of the server
17:49<Wolf01>jez9999, ctrl+drag
17:50<jez9999>tried it
17:50<jez9999>just builds two-way regular signals along the track
17:50<Wolf01>you should drag an existent signal
17:51<Wolf01>first place the one way in the right direction, then drag
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17:52<dih>Rubidium: what i want to say is - not forcing the generation seed to be present in the config file would be a nice thing, but if present use it!
17:52<dih>or have a generation seed command line parameter
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17:53<jez9999>Wolf01: yeah, that works.... without ctrl
17:53*Rubidium proposes the command line parameter
17:53<Rubidium>and... it's implemented
17:54<Wolf01>and with ctrl it fills the entire track until the next signal/junction, so all the bends in the interval should be signalled
17:55<dih>oh - sinse when?
17:55<dih>i must have missed it
17:55<dih>thanks :-P
17:55-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F55ECB.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:55<Rubidium>r5946-ish
17:55<dih>gnah :-P
17:56<dih>ok - then on the note of useing the config reload option :-D
17:56<dih>if the seed is in the file....
17:56*dih expects to be slapped :-P
17:57*Wolf01 slaps dih with an:
17:57<Wolf01>/¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯\
17:57<dih>LOL
17:57<Wolf01>asiastar!
17:57<dih>i assume you had that in your clipboard just waiting for the opportune moment ^^
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17:58<Wolf01>I filled my irc contextual menu with these nice things
17:58<ln>hmm, what was the key for underlining?
17:58<+glx>you're silly ;)
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17:58<Wolf01>ctrtl+u
17:58<dih>i dont have that key
17:58<dih>ctrtl
17:59<Wolf01>lol
17:59<jez9999>ohh i see about the ctrl-click signal thing
17:59<jez9999>heh
17:59<jez9999>did not know thatr
18:00<fjb>dih: Use the Störung key.
18:01*dih has neither umlaut keys nor the 'Störung key' - thankfully he can copy & paste
18:01<Wolf01>ok, the copy key without c :P
18:02<Wolf01>(not the "opy")
18:02<dih>lol
18:02<dih>opy... um
18:03<Wolf01>do you have the "any" key?
18:03<@Bjarni>I lack that one
18:04<dih>i have an apple key :-P
18:04<Wolf01>I have it and the "Panic" key too :D
18:04<@Bjarni>I better call some hotline and ask what I can use instead
18:04<dih>and if i press the apple key + v it still does not paste text as it should in openttd
18:04<fjb>Don't panic!
18:05<@Bjarni>at one time a professor told at a lecture that a professor had a red panic button on his computer and when he made a loop that wouldn't break then he could press it like crazy
18:05<dih>lol
18:05-!-Forked [~kjetil@bruker.adsl.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:05*dih pokes Bjarni with the os x command+v bug in openttd
18:05<@Bjarni>the computer wouldn't know this as the button wasn't connected but it would appear that you should feel a whole lot better if you press it when you lose control
18:06<Wolf01>use autohotkey and bind an unused key to ctrl+break :P
18:06<Wolf01>like the ' key
18:06<Wolf01>or the shift key
18:06<dih>how about ctrtl+u ?
18:06-!-Slowpoke [~Slowpoke@dslb-088-073-211-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:06<Wolf01>that was a typo
18:06<Wolf01>:P
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18:07<dih>whats your point?
18:07<dih>:-P
18:07<Wolf01>this .
18:07<dih>.
18:07<dih>mine is nicer
18:07<Wolf01>.
18:07<dih>still - mine owns brains and looks :-D
18:07<Wolf01>·
18:08<@Bjarni>good point
18:08<ln>test
18:08<ln>damn
18:08<dih>mach mal nen punkt
18:09<ln>test2
18:09<dih>lol
18:09<dih>ctrtl key not found?
18:09<+glx>works for me
18:10<ln>ah, now i found it.
18:10<+glx>bold underlined
18:11<dih>
18:11<Wolf01>italic doesn't work, ctrl+i is a tab
18:11<+glx>ctrl-i is icon for me
18:11<dih> try ctrtl+i
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18:11<+glx>cafe
18:12<dih>heh
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18:15<dih>
18:17<ln>a realistic Pendolino® train: /¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯\_|===¯¯=|
18:17<dih>realistic...!
18:17<Sacro>ln: err...
18:18<+glx>looks like asiastar :)
18:19<@Bjarni>looks like a 6 unit emu being pulled by a diesel (due to lack of catenary)
18:19<Sacro>finland finland finland
18:19<ln>Bjarni: correct!
18:20<@Bjarni>I know stuff like that
18:20<Sacro>yes
18:20<@Bjarni>at one time I got a phonecall because I had to guess what train was at a particular station at that time
18:21<@Bjarni>then I made a statement about an emu that didn't work with the voltage in the catenary at that station and the guy went "damn you guessed it"
18:21-!-thgergo [~Administr@dsl51B65D2C.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:21<@Bjarni>turned out that it was a brand new emu on the way from the factory and it was pulled by a diesel
18:25<Wolf01>'night
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18:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r12482 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
18:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: [build train] we don't need to have a depot in order to just check the price of a rail vehicle so don't check for compatible rails on the tile either
18:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: also wagons will only need tracks they can drive on in order to be build so there is no reason to check for power in the depot
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19:30<jez9999>so, i'm supplying both water and food to a desert town...
19:30<jez9999>it isn't growing, not even by 1 population.
19:30<jez9999>is there a reason for this?@
19:31<ln>maybe it's a boring place to live?
19:32<ln>in
19:33<jez9999>lol
19:33<jez9999>hmm, EVERY town should expand if you give it food and water.
19:33<@Bjarni>maybe it's too hot
19:33<jez9999>i went to loads of effort to setup that too
19:33<jez9999>even funded a £1 million food processing plant
19:33<ln>fund a new casino.
19:34<@Bjarni>then you need some indians for it though
19:34<jez9999>does it have something to do ith their rating of you?
19:34<jez9999>if they rate you as excellent or something they're more likely to expand?
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19:56<ln>kevin johnson
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23:18<Dr_Jekyll>hi...i've tried to compile the source of chrisin with buildottd within paxdest but it gave me an error "...is a copy for an other URL..." someone an ieda for me?
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23:53<DaleStan>Dr_Jekyll: BOTTD only builds trunk, plus at most one patch.
23:53<DaleStan>If you want something else, you have to use a real compiler.
23:53<Dr_Jekyll>i thought something like this
23:55<Dr_Jekyll>but in the forum i've read in the thread of gonozal's patchpack "r12180 built with BuildOTTD"
23:56<Dr_Jekyll>isn't there a posibility to add the paxdest to the source of chrisin without coding (compiling) skills?
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23:57<Dr_Jekyll>DaleStan real compiler...cygwin? is this a compiler?
23:59<DaleStan>Cygwin, MinGW, MSVC. All work on Windows. (Actually "real compiling system" is more like it. And for that, MSVC fails, as it doesn't have diff or patch.)
23:59<DaleStan>But TortoiseSVN usually makes up for MSVC's failings.
---Logclosed Sat Mar 29 00:00:05 2008