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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-30

---Logopened Sun Mar 30 00:00:11 2008
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01:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
01:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
01:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
01:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
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03:29<ln>dst
03:30<Eddi|zuHause3>where?
03:34<Eddi|zuHause3>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:DaylightSaving-World-Subdivisions.png <- this is interesting ;)
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03:45<Tefad>dst is sooo lame
03:45<Tefad>it makes absolutely no sense other than to be a mind game.
03:45<Tefad>why change the clock instead of your own hours of operation
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03:54<Alberth>Everybody would have to print new cards when their open/closed, you'd need to buy a new book with bus/train schedules, etc
03:54<Tefad>their what?
03:55<Alberth>I knew something was wrong with it, but couldn't figure it out, plz s/their/they are/
03:56*Tefad nods
03:56<Tefad>i think in the US, we're in DST more than standard time
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04:01<@Rubidium>Tefad: except in Arizona
04:01<Tefad>until recently in parts of indiana too eh?
04:01<Eddi|zuHause3>Rubidium: except the Navajo territority
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04:21<Eddi|zuHause3># Niemand, niemand kanns dir, kanns dir sagen, sagen
04:21<Eddi|zuHause3># Keiner, keiner kennt die Antwort, die Antwort
04:21<Eddi|zuHause3># Auf alle, alle deine deine Fragen, Fragen
04:21<Eddi|zuHause3># Du mußt, du mußt nur verstehen, verstehen
04:21<Eddi|zuHause3># Wir ernten, ernten was wir, was wir säen, säen
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04:39<Wolf01>hello
04:40<yorick>hello
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05:59<jez9999>i don't know if it's just a problem with my build, but is there a bug in recent builds whereby the water animations aren't working?
06:01<Wolf01>full animation disables?
06:01<Wolf01>*d
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06:04<dih>ladies
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06:19<yorick>hello dih
06:20<dih>hey
06:20<Eddi|zuHause3>jez9999: using 32bpp blitter without palette animation?
06:20<jez9999>how does that hapen?
06:20<jez9999>happen?
06:21<Eddi|zuHause3>there's a setting in the cfg
06:21<yorick>or have you disabled animation?
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06:22*dih has lamb and mint sauce and roast veggies
06:24<yorick>dih, TB still felt ill, so kicking me helped nothing :)
06:25<dih>he feels better today :-)
06:25<yorick>he does?
06:25<yorick>I haven't spoke to him
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06:50<jez9999>disbaled animation
06:50<jez9999>would that be somewhere in the patches list?
06:50<jez9999>or is it set at compile time?
06:54<@peter1138>it's on the 'spanner' menu
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06:58*dih found cathedral cheddar in germany
07:01<Patrick`>yeah, but it's such a dull cheese
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07:03<Eddi|zuHause3>what does cheddar have to do with germany?
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07:42<Volley>just found and tried the copy&paste patch for 0.6.0-rc1 ... coool stuff! doesn't handle signals 100% correctly, but still ...
07:43<mrfrenzy>it's really nice yes ;)
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07:50<jez9999>LOL
07:50<jez9999>'full animation' was unchecked
07:50<jez9999>why the heck do we have that option in such a prominent part of the GUI? It should be hidden somewhere so you dont accidentally uncheck it
07:51<@Rubidium>wasn't that said about 100 minutes ago?
07:51<Gekz>yes
07:51<Gekz>yes it was
07:51<Gekz>lol
07:51<Gekz>like 10 lines ago
07:51<Mirrakor>what happens if my vehicle gets to old?
07:51<Yexo>since when 1hour == 100 minutes?
07:51<Prof_Frink>Mirrakor: It breaks down a lot
07:52<Prof_Frink>If breakdowns are disabled, nothing.
07:52<@Rubidium>Yexo: since 13:51-12:00 => 1:51 => 111 minutes, so I just rounded it down.
07:53<Yexo>ok, I thought you were referring to his last line about it
07:53<Mirrakor>btw. I've got a a>b>c>depot>a>b>c>depot... circle, but my cars still break down frequently..
07:53<Yexo>[12:51] <jez9999> disbaled animation
07:53<Yexo>[12:51]<jez9999> would that be somewhere in the patches list?
07:53<Volley>we need to add to the irc guidelines not to round 111 minutes down to 100 minutes! this channel is about precision!
07:54<@Rubidium>Yexo: jez started about it at 11:59 and on 12:00 the answer was given, only jez found it out himself on 12:51
07:54<Yexo>13:51-12:51 = 1:00 (not 100min) :P but let's stop this now
07:54<Yexo>I know, sorry
07:56<Yexo>Mirrakor, are you're trains old?
07:56<Prof_Frink>New IRC rule: All timestamps should be seconds since the epoch.
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07:57<Mirrakor>yeah
07:57<Mirrakor>Yexo: nope, my busses
07:57<Mirrakor>train is getting old too
07:58<Yexo>Mirrakor: How old are your busses then? Because if they are too old servicing won't help much.
07:59<Mirrakor>Well.. the oldest one is 17(12)
07:59<Yexo>Just put it on autoreplace :P
07:59<Yexo>*autorenew
07:59<Mirrakor>how?
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08:00<Mirrakor>all back to the depot and replace?
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08:00<Yexo>open busses window (truck button in main menu)
08:00<Yexo>sorry, forget that
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08:00<Yexo>that's for autoreplace
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08:01<Yexo>open the patches window
08:01<Yexo>under vehicles
08:01<Yexo>activate "autorenew vehicle when it gets old"
08:01<Mirrakor>ok, will it also works afterwars?
08:02<Yexo>yep, I think so
08:02<Mirrakor>I mean now it's much older - will it still be renewed?
08:02<Yexo>every time it comes into a depot, it'll check if current age + autorenewtime (slider under that option) > max age
08:02<Alberth>Mirrakor: yes
08:02<Mirrakor>200,000 is way over my current finances..
08:03<Yexo>then lower that value :P
08:03<Mirrakor>I just did.. but with only 26k I could only afford two new busses.. :D
08:03<Mirrakor>I mean I just got myself out of a finance crises :D
08:03<Mirrakor>it's hill up from now :)
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08:05<Mirrakor>btw. I just noticed the bus coasts more now - how comes?
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08:05<Yexo>do you have inflation turned on?
08:05<Mirrakor>yes
08:05<Mirrakor>but will it even out somewhen?
08:05<Yexo>well, that the reason
08:05<Yexo>inflation will stop after 180 years IIRC
08:06<mrfrenzy>why is that?
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08:07<Yexo>because prices could go to high otherwise
08:07<@Rubidium>because the inflation on the income is less than the inflation on the prices
08:07<mrfrenzy>well income should ofcourse also increase
08:07<mrfrenzy>with our current monetary system I don't see a point when inflation will ever stop
08:08<mrfrenzy>this is a really interesting presentation: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
08:08<@Rubidium>with the current system you will after a few hundred years be unable to make a profit in any way
08:08<@Rubidium>if inflation would continue
08:09<Prof_Frink>Hmm, I know that's not true for ttdpatch
08:09-!-Mark is now known as M4rk
08:09<@Rubidium>are you 100% sure?
08:10<Prof_Frink>Well, my epic-overflows game would suggest so
08:10<@Rubidium>after how many years was that?
08:10<Prof_Frink>Many.
08:10<Prof_Frink>I left it on fastforward ovenight
08:11<@Rubidium>and the divergence was also in the earliest versions of OTTD
08:11<@Rubidium>and I don't think that ludde changed it back then
08:12<Prof_Frink>It's probably a saved-by-the-overflows situation then
08:12<Eddi|zuHause3><mrfrenzy> with our current monetary system I don't see a point when inflation will ever stop <- i can, 2^63-1
08:12<jez9999>strange; i actually have a computer player in this game that is turning a decent profit
08:13<Eddi|zuHause3>heretic! burn him!
08:13<Prof_Frink>He's a witch!
08:15<Mirrakor>what's a company building good for?
08:16<Yexo>nothing
08:16<@Rubidium>it creates passengers
08:16<Yexo>it'll grow bigger once you company grows
08:16<Mirrakor>I see I've just a small farm house at the moment..
08:20<Mirrakor>I've three bus stations in a city - two with about 1000 passengers waiting, and one with only about 15
08:20<Mirrakor>Does it make sense that _all_ my busses circle between those three or should I just focus on the big ones?
08:20<Mirrakor>will I provide the third area with more passengers if I let them unload the passangers there?
08:21<Yexo>you should focus more on the bigger ones
08:21<Patrick`>nope.
08:21<Mirrakor>1000 passengers means I can build a lot of busses.. or am I wrong?
08:22<mrfrenzy>yes
08:22<mrfrenzy>but would make more sense with a train to another town
08:22<hylje>trams fuck yeah
08:22<Gekz>trams are terrible
08:23<Gekz>I can never see them put into a stable release
08:23<hylje>with timetables so they wont clog up
08:23<dih>lol
08:24<Eddi|zuHause3>trams are much better, because they won't go haywire just because the city extended the road behind the last stop
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08:24<Mirrakor>I'm getting rich - gnahhahahaha, the money flows in :D
08:25<Eddi|zuHause3>but trams usually don't make sense without passenger destinations
08:25<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause3: they suck in multiplayer
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08:25<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause3: and if the ai ever learns to use them
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08:28<Mirrakor>well.. building up a railway network coast me a lot of money yesterday..
08:28<Mirrakor>what's better, building a long railway to another _big_ city or is a smaller big -> small city connection better?
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08:29<Prof_Frink>big-big will get you meny quicker
08:29<Prof_Frink>big-small will eventually give you two big cities, one of which has a staion right at the centre.
08:30<Eddi|zuHause3>industry-industry usually gives you a great deal of money to build your empire on
08:30<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause3: You mean coalmine-powerstation
08:30<Eddi|zuHause3>typically a coal-power line that you forget about for the rest of the game
08:31<Mirrakor>okay.. then I'll try both - yesterday I really screwed up, building a train network, would you recommend two termus(?) train stations with two rails going to the other station?
08:32<Eddi|zuHause3>i usually concipate my stations as drive-through, even if i only connect one side at the moment
08:32<Mirrakor>how do you do that?
08:32<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald Transport, 12. Mai 1939.png
08:32<Eddi|zuHause3>hm...
08:32<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
08:32*Prof_Frink hands Eddi|zuHause3 sone %20
08:33<Mirrakor>ouch
08:33<Eddi|zuHause3>too little, too late ;)
08:33<Alberth>They're called RoRo stations
08:33<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause3: the missing %20 are no problem for me :)
08:33<Mirrakor>yeah, I know roll in, roll out - but that seems like a complexe station there..
08:34<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause3, Do you have realistic acceleration on or off in that game?
08:35<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- earlier version of the station
08:35<Eddi|zuHause3>Yexo: always on
08:36<Alberth>Mirrakor: 2nd picture at http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Railway_stations
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08:36<Patrick`>I've had an idea for a roro station
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08:36<Alberth>although I don't understand why the entrance side has double signal
08:36<Patrick`>the exit loop is a tunnel that goes underneath the same platform the train entered
08:36<Patrick`>thus, you don't need complex turning loops
08:37<Patrick`>just linears to clear the platform asap and then you know you won't have a chaser
08:37<Mirrakor>http://img-up.net/?up=Openttd27CrEmU.png could you recommend something.. ?
08:38<Patrick`>Mirrakor: hmm
08:38<Eddi|zuHause3>Alberth: it's an urban myth that you need 2-way signals to give trains a choice where to go
08:38<Eddi|zuHause3>it's an ancient ttdp hack
08:38<ln>btw, why is "xyztown Transport" translatable?
08:38<ln>+ *not*
08:38<Patrick`>Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but it's so ingrained now :)
08:38<Patrick`>I don't even think to distinguish
08:38<Patrick`>plus it means you can convert a thingy (?) to a roro easily
08:39<Eddi|zuHause3>Patrick`: typical problem with tunnels is long signal distance
08:40<Patrick`>Eddi|zuHause3: yes, but if it's the exit to a roro you know you don't have a chaser
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08:40<Alberth>Mirrakor: What do you need recommendations about?
08:40<Patrick`>I've usually just been doing sharp turns and then lead the exit track down one side of the platform
08:40<Patrick`>but if space is tight ...
08:40<Eddi|zuHause3>but i don't usually use Ro-Ro stations
08:40<Patrick`>yeah, me neither unless the load is really high
08:41<Mirrakor>Alberth: a train network setup
08:41<Prof_Frink>http://alanblanchflower.co.uk/images/stations.png are my standard terminus/roro stations
08:41<Mirrakor>hm.. but I think I've to go in about 10 minutes..
08:42<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: i wonder that, too... in TTO it was translated
08:43<Alberth>For a train network with passengers, try the 2 big cities
08:43<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%201.%20Jul%201981.png
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08:44<Mirrakor>Alberth: and Ro-Ro-Stations or the other kind?
08:44<Prof_Frink>Start with termini.
08:45<Mirrakor>http://alanblanchflower.co.uk/images/stations.png the termini station here's a good configuration for my city?
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause3>wait, i have one of those, too
08:46<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png
08:46<Prof_Frink>It's a nice simple option, minimal footprint, easily expandable
08:47<Alberth>For passengers, RoRo if you have room (you will get a busy station!)
08:47<Prof_Frink>Of course, the real fun isn't in the the station, it's in the interchange
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08:48<Mirrakor>I've to go now sorry, but I'll be back later and then we'll try to figure it out.. :D (signals will by funny... :D )
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08:48<Alberth>Mirrakor: ok, bye
08:49<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd suggest any beginner to try to start with the (YAPP) 'Advanced Signals'
08:51<Eddi|zuHause3>oh, and you haven't seen stations until you have seen this one
08:52<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2020.%20Okt%201947.png
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08:54<DaleStan><Eddi|zuHause3> it's an ancient ttdp hack <-- No, it's an ancient ttd hack.
08:55<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, possibly
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, it's not in ottd since OPF is not available anymore
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08:56<Patrick`>trains just look so much nicer than monorail or maglev
08:57<Patrick`>and you can get away with a lot more elegant track layout because you're not such a slave to RA
08:57<Eddi|zuHause3>i usually build my curves like this: \ _ _ _ /
08:58<Eddi|zuHause3>RA lets you go 130 through those
08:59<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png
09:00<Eddi|zuHause3>advanced hill climbing
09:01<Eddi|zuHause3>occasionally i miss turning tunnels...
09:02<Eddi|zuHause3>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Johannes%20Transporte,%204.%20Sep%201925.png
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09:05<ln>where the hell are screenshots saved into?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause3>~/.openttd
09:06<ln>thanks.
09:06<ln>should i express my opinion about the sensibility of that location?
09:06<Eddi|zuHause3>yes. please.
09:07<Prof_Frink>ln: Or use ksnaphot and save the cropped images directly... anywhere
09:08<ln>why on earth are they saved into such totally wrong, hidden place?
09:08<Prof_Frink>Where should they be saved then?
09:09<ln>current dir, or ~/Desktop, or ~
09:09<@Rubidium>current dir might not be writable, ~ and ~/Desktop aren't quite the place where I'd like my screenshots dumped
09:09<@Rubidium>but you can have it in the current dir *when* you have openttd.cfg also in that directory
09:10<Patrick`>Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but if I spend 2n tiles on each stretch it's fine
09:10<ln>~/Desktop/OpenTTD Screenshots
09:10<Prof_Frink>ln: Ewwwwwwwwwwwww
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>nothing whatsoever should be saved on ~/Desktop
09:11<@Rubidium>ln: I wouldn't be able to find them there; primarily because my window manager has no concept of 'desktop' where files can be dumped
09:11<Patrick`>I guess you use a lot of train carts
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>i hate that firefox does that by default
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>and doesn't even let me choose to change it
09:11<ln>Rubidium: nonetheless, ~/.openttd is still wrong.
09:12<Prof_Frink>save to ~/.openttd/screenshots, then ln can symlink that to wherever he likes
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, i wanted to suggest that, too :)
09:13<@Rubidium>ln: ./configure --personal-dir="~/Desktop"
09:13<Prof_Frink>Hmm, symlink down a kio/fuse tunnel to my ftp
09:13<@Rubidium>there... all you shit will be put on the desktop
09:14<ln>Rubidium: but i don't want all the shit there, only screenshots.
09:14<@Rubidium>then mv ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg .
09:15<ln>but i'm wrong of course.
09:15<@Rubidium>assuming you're in the directory where the ottd binary is
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09:37<Ridayah>Well hmm.
09:38<Ridayah>I have my openttd.cfg with lan_internet 1 and server_advertise = false, but it still seems to be querying the master server? Linux dedicated from console.
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09:38<Ridayah>Did I just miss a note where it'd connect anyways, or is that unwanted behavior?
09:49<Ridayah>If it queries the master-server anyways I'll just ignore it, but with server_advertise = false it should not query it correct?
09:50<@Rubidium>1) did you start the server with advertising the last 30 or so minute?
09:50<@Rubidium>2) where does it exactly send the packets to?
09:50<@Rubidium>3) what protocol and port are the packets sent to?
09:52<Ridayah>1) No, but it had been running for a while so that might be it. 2) master.openttd.org and other IP's which I assume are those querying the master server. 3) udp, port 3678
09:53<Ridayah>If it needs to sit a while, I'll let it be then before restarting the server and see if that helps. Thanks.
09:53<@Rubidium>where is the openttd.cfg you've edited?
09:53<@Rubidium>have you edited it while the server was running?
09:53<@Rubidium>(where as in: in your home directory, in the directory where the ottd binary is, etc)
09:54<Ridayah>it's at /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd.cfg and no, I always stop the server before making edits. ;)
09:54<@Rubidium>is there an openttd.cfg in ~/.openttd/ or $DIR_WHERE_THE_OPENTTD_BINARY_IS ?
09:55<Ridayah>Nope, the only openttd.cfg is the one in the above directory!
09:56<@Rubidium>udp to other IPs?
09:56<Ridayah>Yeah; like requests for NewGRF listing and such, which I'm figuring is a result of being listed on the master server.
09:56<@Rubidium>but does the server receive those or send those?
09:57<@Rubidium>oh, and what version are you using?
09:58<Ridayah>recieved I'm fairly positive, and version 0.6.0-RC1. Went with that instead of a nightly since it's a server to play with my girlfriend, ha
09:59<@Rubidium>well, could also be a client trying to get the server list because that shows the same packets
09:59<Ridayah>And yes, all the IPs and requests for the newgrfs and such are "queried from"
09:59<@Rubidium>anyhow, is it shown on servers.openttd.org ?
10:00<Ridayah>nope, not seeing it listed on there but the server's been down about 20 minutes or so now while I figure this out.
10:00<@Rubidium>turn it on and when it does not show on servers.openttd.org within a minute it must've been something else
10:00<Ridayah>however, it -is- listed as being currently offline. I'll check it.
10:01*Ridayah starts up the server.
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10:03<Ridayah>well on startup it is NOT saying queries to master server, but there's still the udp recieved from (random IPs)
10:03<Ridayah>Still listed as offline on the server list.
10:03<@Rubidium>then it's not advertised anymore
10:04<Ridayah>Well then, guess the queries are a part of it. Thanks a ton. :)
10:04<@Rubidium>the only thing that could cause those packets is someone who has a wrongly configured network that clicked on show network games and it's still trying to find your server
10:04<mrfrenzy>there might be lots of users who has your server cached in their list
10:04<Ridayah>So that should fade out after time then?
10:05<Ridayah>well, I'll give it a few days and see, regardless. Again, my thanks, very much!
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10:33<bowman>is there a patch setting that will prevent industries from going out of business?
10:34<Yexo>no
10:35<mrfrenzy>hey bowman
10:35<bowman>mhm
10:35<bowman>hey
10:35<mrfrenzy>are you bowman from efnet?
10:35<bowman>yep
10:35<mrfrenzy>long time no seen :P
10:36<bowman>not that long hehe
10:36<mrfrenzy>there is a patch to do it I believe
10:37<bowman>I'd want them to decline as usual when unserviced (with smooth economy) but stop short of disappearing completely :)
10:37<ln>aargh, "patch setting"
10:37<ln>someone please rename it.
10:38<yorick>get us a suitable name
10:38<mrfrenzy>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34310&hilit=industry+closing
10:39<ln>yorick: additional setting
10:39<yorick>how would that translate?
10:40<yorick>patch settings are basically settings from patches that once got into trunk
10:40<ln>no, they aren't
10:41<yorick>after that, dev's began misusing them
10:42<ln>yorick: http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
10:42<ln>yorick: do you have evidence?
10:42<yorick>no
10:44<Prof_Frink>ln: No, just "Settings", and merge game options/difficulty settings into the one dialogue.
10:44<ln>yorick: so you just came up with that kind of a story?
10:45<ln>Prof_Frink: also acceptable.
10:46<Alberth>If you want to keep them seperate, "advanced settings" would also be an option
10:48<ln>Alberth: many of them aren't particularly advanced, but very useful for anyone.
10:48<dih>@seen Bjarni
10:48<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 40 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Bjarni> so it's imaginary funny
10:50<Alberth>So merging all settings together would be preferable? Fine by me too...
10:51<Patrick`>hahaha
10:51<Patrick`>there's a pig latin lenguage setting
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10:53<bowman>hehe
10:55<Patrick`>it won't compile - my fault or a broken repo?
10:55<@Rubidium>``one setting to rule them all''
10:55<Patrick`>it's been a looong time since I compiled ottd
10:57<Prof_Frink>I have a crontab that compiles it daily
10:58<Patrick`>yeah, I was just being a nub
10:58<Patrick`>recyclig a very old repo
10:58<Patrick`>some sort of cruft or permissions problem
10:58<Patrick`>I just want to make myself a map that's the same area as a 2k*2k but only 128 wide
10:59<Patrick`>or even 64 if it'll fit
11:00<Prof_Frink>That's a tad nuts
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11:01<Patrick`>think of the cargo payments :)
11:01<Patrick`>cba for now
11:01<Sacro>OH PLEASE WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CARGO PAYMENTS
11:01<Patrick`>I used to build with cygwin, did the png issue ever get fixed?
11:01<Patrick`>I know it wasn't our fault blah blah
11:01<Sacro>oh yes... i don't have perl in irssi ><
11:01<Yexo>I still can't compile with png under cygwin
11:02<Yexo>but that could also be my fault
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11:04<Patrick`>Yexo: no, it's a cygwin issue that's so obscure nobody will fix it
11:05<Yexo>ok, than I won't try to fix it either :P
11:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12484 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: add missing headers to the MSVC project files.
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11:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12485 /branches/0.6/config.lib: [0.6] -Backport: from trunk (r12483, disabling of stripping for betas and RCs).
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12:27<Mirrakor>there's no currency translation, isn't there?
12:29<SmatZ>you can define your own currencies
12:33<Eddi|zuHause3>currency names are translated
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause3>src/lang/german.txt:910:STR_CURR_DEM :Deutsche Mark (DEM)
12:36<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause3: Have you ever read file metadata in Delphi? My searching on the net does not give much help.
12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i have not worked with delphi in years...
12:37<Zuu>Okay.
12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>and when i did, i usually made console applications (pascal style)
12:38<SmatZ>Belugas does a lot in delphi...
12:38<Zuu>I'm not so used to doing win-API things, but I gues I have do dig into something like that if I want to get it work.
12:39<Zuu>SmatZ: Okay, I'll ask him when he is around then.
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12:40<Patrick`>WIN
12:41<Zuu>reading OpentTTD version from openttd.exe have it's benefits as you get branch name three too. Though perhaps the same information should be available elsewhere too as metadata is only available on NTFS as far as I've understood.
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13:00<Ammller>Zuu: over the console: openttd.exe -h
13:00<Ammller>1. row
13:01<Zuu>Ammller: Thanks, didn't even though about executing openttd and ask it :)
13:02<Mirrakor>SmatZ: No I mean something like 1€ => 1,95DM or something like this
13:02<Mirrakor>you know, there are those currencys where you've to spend a million to buy a bottle of water
13:02<Patrick`>the exchange rates are built in
13:02<Patrick`>I remember in ttd, there were 2 pounds for a dollar
13:03<Mirrakor>cool :)
13:03<Zuu>Though it shows in a msg-box here, and if I'm not wrong it is not possible to rederict the output to stdout.
13:03<Patrick`>those were the days
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause3>new internets work
13:04<Eddi|zuHause3>not faster, but more beautiful ;)
13:04<Zuu>Can internet be beautiful? Content can for sure, but internet itself?
13:05<Eddi|zuHause3>they can! i just told you!
13:09<Prof_Frink>Patrick`: Umm, no.
13:09<Patrick`>the exchange rates *were* built in
13:09<Prof_Frink>Two dollars to the pound
13:09<Patrick`>oops
13:09<Patrick`>yes, dur, I fail
13:11<Ammller>[19:03] <Zuu> Though it shows in a msg-box here, and if I'm not wrong it is not possible to rederict the output to stdout. <-- quite ugly, is that windows or openttd?
13:12<Mirrakor>btw. is there something like a right-side-traffic for trains?
13:12<Zuu>openttd I think, since it is possible to write windows applications that uses stdout, the problem is that most windows-users don't know how to use the console, so I guess openttd have decided to use msg-boxes instead of stdout.
13:13<Ammller>i call them over console, so it should output there
13:13<Ammller>Mirrakor:
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13:13<Ammller>it takes the side from road traffic also for trains, iirc
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13:14<Mirrakor>doesn't it just take it the way the signals go?
13:14<Mirrakor>(btw. can I rotate the view?)
13:14<Ammller>nope, its not 3d
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, no
13:14<Mirrakor>:)
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>but the road side defines on which side of the tracks the signals go
13:15<+glx><Ammller> i call them over console, so it should output there <-- only if openttd is "converted" to be a console app
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>typically, the signals stand on the outside of a doubletrack
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13:16<Zuu>Ammller: So do I, used console2+cygwin+zsh, but using standard windows terminal gives the same msg-dialgo. Though I don't know any way for the program to detect if it is run by a terminal or by somone double clicking on it. :(
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13:17<Ammller>glx: is there a option you can give to reach output to console?
13:18<+glx>not without converting it
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13:18<Ammller>converting means compiling it in an other way?
13:18<+glx>with -d it outputs in the console, but as it is a window app, it opens its own console
13:19<+glx>converting means changing a byte in the exe
13:19<+glx>using http://devs.openttd.org/~glx/convert.zip
13:19<bowman>not an ideal way to read the version info from the exe in any case :)
13:21<Mirrakor>the DS Port is really funny
13:21<Ammller>maybe something with md5sums?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause3>grep the readme ;)
13:23<dih>hehe
13:24<bowman>I think its pretty much plain text, within the resource section of the exe
13:24<Zuu>glx: Do you know of a good way to obtain branch information which is found in file metadata of openttd.exe on NTFS filesystems other than reading the metadata from NTFS? If you grep openttd.exe for noai you'll get a match on noai-branch and you could grep for all branch tags to see which branch it is if any. But that seams a bit hacky :)
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13:25<+glx>Zuu: you can get the version with windows API
13:26<Zuu>glx: Ok, I'll probably have to dig into that. hehe
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13:35<Mirrakor>someone remember the picture of my city from later this midday?
13:37<@peter1138>Remember from later?
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12486 /trunk/src/ottdres.rc.in: -Fix: the copyright date wasn't set correctly in ottdres.rc.
13:38<Mirrakor>ups, s/later/earlier
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>no. we have neither logs nor long term memory ;)
13:39<Mirrakor>would you recommend a terminus with two rails or a terminus with four rails? (or should I buy the land and use it for later - if needed)
13:40<Mirrakor> http://img-up.net/?up=Openttd27CrEmU.png
13:40<@peter1138>hmm
13:40<@peter1138>that will get big
13:40<@peter1138>so at least 4
13:41<Sacro>i want underground stations :(
13:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i want, too
13:41<Mirrakor>rather more? I just even the land at the right side to build something
13:41<Eddi|zuHause3>blame smatz ;)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>4 is usually enough for a terminus
13:42<Mirrakor>is that a bad idea or is it ok?
13:42<@Rubidium>hmm... Sacro's the new Born_Acorn?
13:42<Sacro>Rubidium! undergroundstations!
13:43<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause3: can I build a train under the sea?
13:43<Eddi|zuHause3>no
13:43<Sacro>under the sea...
13:43<Sacro>under the sea...
13:43*Sacro whistles
13:43<Mirrakor>*gg*
13:44<Mirrakor>And what would be a good size for the lenght?
13:45<Mirrakor>(I can transport passengers, mail and probably a bit later items too..)
13:45<Alberth>With such a city, longer is better
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13:47<Mirrakor>yeah, but got a recommendation how long?
13:47<Patrick`>leave yourself space
13:47<Alberth>I always do 5 long stations
13:47<Sacro>Alberth: longer is always better
13:47<Patrick`>I standardise on four because it makes RA less of a pain
13:48<@Rubidium>Sacro: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=73009 <- underground station!
13:48<Alberth>Hmm, can you build a station of 30+ tiles?
13:48<Sacro>Rubidium: pfft, it's on legs
13:48*Sacro can see the pixels
13:49<Patrick`>Sacro: shopped?
13:49<Sacro>Rubidium: it'd be nice if you could build it with only a 2x4 surface usage
13:49<Sacro>and not need to damage the whole city
13:49*Sacro smells gass
13:49*Sacro goes to investigate
13:50<Mirrakor>Patrick`: RA?
13:50<Patrick`>realistic acceleration
13:51<Mirrakor>ah, it's turned off by default isn't it? (would you suggest to activate it? )
13:51<Patrick`>yes, because unless I've been under a rock for years (which I have), slope climbing utterly mauls your train speed
13:51<Mirrakor>ok, now I've 4 rails :D I bundle them to 2 (one for each direction, right? )
13:52<Alberth>sounds like a good plan
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13:53<murr4y>hi guise :D
13:54<Mirrakor>how much time do you usually spend with building up a railway network? Do you just build it and connect it, or do you do some further planning?
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13:55<Mirrakor> http://img-up.net/?up=Openttd27CrEmU.png (same old picture) - would you build a bridge over the see to connect the two big cities, or rather not?
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13:55<Alberth>I like to do it after getting into trouble, others plan very far ahead. Just do what you like best
13:56<@peter1138>i'd go around it
13:56<mrfrenzy>if you are going to connect the cities, building a bridge would be the way to go imo
13:56<mrfrenzy>you don't get paid for the extra distance of going around
13:56<Mirrakor>hm.. :D but a bridge coasts money, doesn't it?
13:56<mrfrenzy>indeed
13:56<Mirrakor>much money? :D
13:57<mrfrenzy>that is only when you have ridiculous amounts of money and want to make everything effective
13:57<Alberth>if your station is at the 'bottom', go around, else buy a bridge
13:57<mrfrenzy>it will be much cheaper to go around
13:57<Alberth>try making a bridge, you'll get a window with a bridge type adn cost
13:57<Mirrakor>then I think I'll go around.. this way I could build up some Ro-Ro-Stations at the right bottom cities
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13:58<Mirrakor>Well.. about ~100k
13:59<Alberth>if you have speed limits switched on, also note the speed limit of the bridge
13:59<Mirrakor>yeah, I just saw them
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14:08<Patrick`>bridges can only take one train anyway
14:08<Mirrakor>I'm going around ;)
14:09<Mirrakor>http://alanblanchflower.co.uk/images/stations.png The upper station the lowest rail, is it possible for the train here, to get on the left main-rail?
14:09<+glx>Zuu: http://paste.openttd.org/1619
14:09<Prof_Frink>Mirrakor: You're quite right, there's a bit missing there
14:10<Mirrakor>the middle pice?
14:10<Mirrakor>s/pice/piece
14:10<Prof_Frink>The two blocks in the middle should have every piece of track possible on them.
14:11<Mirrakor>thanks Prof_Frink(isn't that the mavin guy from the simpsons..? ) :)
14:12<Prof_Frink>Aye
14:12<Zuu>glx: Thanks. The updater is in delphi, but if I dot't get it to work in delphi, manking an extranal c/cpp program for getting version info is not impossible. But I've found some interesting things on the net that I'm trying out.
14:12<+glx>Zuu: delphi can use windows API
14:13<+glx>maybe it have builtins function for that too
14:14<Mirrakor>nooo - I built it in the wrong city :D
14:14<Mirrakor>now I've got two 4x5 train stations in one city..
14:14<Zuu>No built in function what I'm aware of. being quite old I'm not surprised if WinAPI is the only way.
14:15<Zuu>I've seen some examples that uses som OLE-thing, but that example was uncomplete. :/
14:15<Zuu>some*
14:15<Alberth>That will also work, except you get paid (much) less
14:16<Mirrakor>I'll show you a picture.. I just hope I saved it..
14:18<Mirrakor>http://img-up.net/?up=Openttd322i5y7.jpg I guess I should keep the upper one.. since it's nearer(?) to the center and the railway network get's shorter..
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14:21<Prof_Frink>The NE one may have issues if you're using realistic acceleration
14:21<Prof_Frink>(Also, ewww, .jpg)
14:21<Alberth>The center is where the city name is displayed. I would have put the upper station just south of the cursor.
14:21<@peter1138>hmm
14:21<@peter1138>i woul...
14:22<@peter1138>yes, exactly that ;)
14:22<Mirrakor>is png really an advantage here? (I've been told it's most powerful for shematic graphics, for fotos/realistic pictures it's way bigger than jpeg..)
14:22<Alberth>Good point Prof_Frink, the bottom one is much better in that respect.
14:22<@peter1138>this is not a photo or a realistic picture
14:22<Prof_Frink>Mirrakor: openttd is not photorealistic.
14:23<Mirrakor>sure, but it has many different colors in one inch
14:23<Prof_Frink>(yet)
14:23<Prof_Frink>No, only 256
14:23<Mirrakor>(yet) *gg*
14:24<Maedhros>and since jpg is lossy you lose some of the details, and some of the colours that should be different start looking the same
14:24<Mirrakor>sure, but is it important to keep all color informations for such a picture?
14:24<Maedhros>the bars on entrance / combo presignals look pretty much the same in jpgs
14:24<Maedhros>so, yes :p
14:25<Mirrakor>true, yes
14:25<Prof_Frink>plus, just hit ctrl-s to get a nicey .png
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14:26<Mirrakor>okay - I've an old savegame :)
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14:27<Mirrakor>I'll now build it directy under the city label, should the rails point Southeast or
14:27<Mirrakor>north east
14:27<Prof_Frink>SE gives more opportunity to ease the slope
14:27<Prof_Frink>Depends where you want to go.
14:28<Mirrakor>East :D
14:31<Alberth>Have to go make myself some food, night
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14:33<Mirrakor>is this correct connected so far? http://img-up.net/?up=Openttd4UNtB1lh.png
14:34<Mirrakor>I think the diagonal rail between the lowest two is wrong
14:34<Patrick`>finally, something I was bitching about for years
14:34<Patrick`>a free sound prject
14:34<Patrick`>so we can finally get a working game into distros
14:35<Patrick`>Mirrakor: no
14:35<Patrick`>the third platform can't have a signal in front of it
14:35<Patrick`>so a train htere will block the whole grid
14:36<Mirrakor>so I should make a straight one in front of it
14:36<Patrick`>yeah
14:36<Patrick`>trains go really slowly when partially inside a platform so you want a few tiles as breathing space
14:37<Mirrakor>hm.. true.. but then my station should point SE
14:39<Patrick`>whatever fits
14:39<Patrick`>you can always optimise later
14:41<Mirrakor>is there a way to make trees invisible?
14:42<@peter1138>yes
14:42<Mirrakor>how?
14:44<Patrick`>where's the code for the new game gui kept? I messed with it once, can't remember what the file is
14:45<Patrick`>genworld_gui
14:47<Zuu>glx: I've succesfully adopted your code for Delphi so now I get the version string. Thanks. :)
14:47<Patrick`>bah, too confusing
14:47<Zuu>The Delphi-code if anyone cares: http://paste.openttd.org/1622 :p
14:47<@peter1138>Mirrakor: it's a patch option for the transparency setting
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14:50<Mirrakor>why is "use better loading" disabled?
14:50<@peter1138>it's not better, it's different
14:52<Mirrakor>it's translated as improved :)
14:52<@peter1138>yes
14:52<Mirrakor>btw. is there some kind of read me for all those patch settings?
14:54<SmatZ>Mirrakor: http://wiki.openttd.org
14:54<Patrick`>where is it that the map size dropdown is coded?
14:54<Patrick`>I mena, the limit
14:55<Patrick`>ah, thee already exists a patch for what I want to do
14:55<Patrick`>1048576*64
14:56<Patrick`>BWAHAHAH
14:56<@peter1138>heh
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15:05<xyz>hi
15:05<Mirrakor>hi
15:06<xyz>is there a way to find out the name of the server you are connected to?
15:06<xyz>in case the connection is lost to know what to search fore
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause3>lsof?
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15:26<Patrick`>I think this patch is a little excessive
15:27<Patrick`>it took me literally one and a half minutes to scroll from one end of the map to the other
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15:29<mrfrenzy>lol
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15:35<Patrick`>so far the train has been on the rails for 4 years
15:35-!-Arie^ [~asdfsadf@villabadmuts.adsl.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd
15:35<Patrick`>definitely excessive
15:36<Prof_Frink>Aaaand the power station has closed
15:36<@peter1138>hehe
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15:38<Patrick`>fucker, it did
15:38<Prof_Frink>People are so predictable
15:39<Prof_Frink>It's always a coal mine - power station run
15:39<Patrick`>it's the starting out winner
15:39<Patrick`>plus you need power for other things
15:39<@peter1138>power stations don't close...
15:40<@peter1138>or something
15:40<Mirrakor>I can't change the Train design during a running game - right?
15:40<Patrick`>I was putting it on for comic effect
15:41<@peter1138>:)
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15:45<Mirrakor>would you build a train depot for every major trainstation or just one in the whole network?
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause3>i place depots very sparsely, but i also turn off breakdowns and servicing
15:48<Zuu>I have them in network, but make sure they are at least 18 tiles away from junction if possible as that prevents trains from taking the wrong way in junctions just to get to the depot.
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15:49<Zuu>And usually I use so called service stations, where the depot is placed off-track so that the train don't slow down on the main-track.
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15:51<Wolf01>'night
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15:52<Zuu>If the network don't have too high load I usually give main-track priority over the train that comes from the service station.
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15:59<Mirrakor>Is there a way for me to see how many passengers would use the train? (Or is it directly related to the number of citizens?)
16:00<Patrick`>for a city that size, the answer is "more than you can handle"
16:01<Mirrakor>no, just a general question - my father is asking :D
16:01<hylje>Mirrakor: each building "produces" passengers -- the more and bigger buildings, the more users
16:01<Prof_Frink>Mirrakor: It's a positive feedback loop
16:01<Mirrakor>(he's a commuter and I think he's interested in such stuff (especially with an old vehicle skin :D ) )
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16:02<Prof_Frink>The more passengers you transport, the more the town will generate, so the more passengers it will produce
16:02<Prof_Frink>s/generate/grow/
16:03<Patrick`>aah cool
16:04<Mirrakor>how can I build a tunnel?
16:04<Prof_Frink>With the tunnel tool.
16:04<hylje>using the tunnel button in construction
16:04<hylje>hotkey t
16:04<Mirrakor>uh, that's a good idea
16:05<hylje>note that you can't tunnel canals nor airports
16:05<hylje>despite there being an alleged underground airport in north korea
16:05<Mirrakor>lol? how does it work?
16:06<hylje>runway in a tunnel, hole in the ceiling
16:06<Mirrakor>outch.. has to have skilled pilotes..
16:06<jez9999>wow, a father who plays OpenTTD?
16:06<Mirrakor>can I build signals underground? and can I join different rails in a tunnel?
16:06<hylje>no
16:06<hylje>not yet
16:06<jez9999>that would be cool :-)
16:07<hylje>maybe in the far, far future
16:07<hylje>where grass is greener
16:07<Mirrakor>jez9999: not yet, but he looks interested - even though I guess he think it's to complicated :/
16:08<jez9999>lol
16:08<Mirrakor>btw. how expensive is such a tunnel? (if the height difference is only a few tiles - would it be cheaper to just even them?)
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16:20<Mirrakor>oh my god - this whole railway network coasts more than I expected :D
16:20<Mirrakor>who can I blame? :D
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16:23<hylje>Mirrakor: coincidentally railways are the most profitable because they scale best
16:24<Mirrakor>hehe
16:25<Mirrakor>Maybe someone heard the news that the Transrapid project suddenly coasted two billion(was it?) more than expected and therefore got cancled :D
16:25<hylje>yes
16:26<@peter1138>s/coasted/cost/
16:28<@Bjarni> <Mirrakor> who can I blame? :D <-- whenever we search for someone to blame we usually end up thinking about Sacro :P
16:28<Sacro>breasts?
16:28<Prof_Frink>where?
16:28<@Bjarni>that's another keyword for thinking about Sacro
16:28<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: on the lesbians
16:29<Prof_Frink>Mmmmmmmm, lessibans.
16:29<@Bjarni>err...
16:29-!-Arie- [asdfsadf@villabadmuts.adsl.utwente.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29<Axamentia>lebanons?
16:29<@Bjarni>mentioning breasts in this channel makes people think of Sacro.... wtf
16:29<@Bjarni>Sacro: you molested this channel :(
16:29<@Bjarni>broke the sanity in it completely
16:29<Prof_Frink>Sacro: #tycoon is thataway <--
16:30<@Bjarni>actually it's that way -->
16:30<ln>Bjarni!
16:30<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Actually, they're in the same place, temporally separated.
16:31<Prof_Frink>But #tycoon is 2 and #openttd is 3
16:32<@Bjarni>what is #1 then?
16:32<Sacro>me!
16:32<@Bjarni>Sacro: I didn't ask you
16:32<Prof_Frink>1 is the server messages
16:42<ln>back from the cinema [x]
16:42<@peter1138>what did you watch, lost?
16:42<jez9999>hey Bjarni
16:42<ln>Die Fälscher.
16:42<jez9999>get anywhere with the ability to estimate autoreplace cost?
16:43<ln>not lost.
16:46<@Bjarni>jez9999: I coded it
16:47<@Bjarni>but I didn't commit it
16:47<jez9999>ah
16:47<@Bjarni>something is odd about it
16:47<@Bjarni>I expected it to always just tell me the costs but it's not entirely stable and I need to figure out why
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16:49<jez9999>o
16:49<jez9999>ok
16:49<@Bjarni>I mean it should work with shift+click in the GUI
16:49<@Bjarni>sometimes it works and sometimes the popup window is completely blank
16:50<jez9999>i should be able to say:
16:50<jez9999> CommandCost depotcost = DoCommand(ddata.tile, VEH_TRAIN, p2, DC_QUERY_COST, CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE);
16:50<jez9999> assert(!CmdFailed(depotcost));
16:50<jez9999>if it's blank is the command failing or succeeding?
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16:50<@peter1138>assert? :o
16:51<jez9999>even with the current code, i upgraded a massive network to monorail, then to maglev, in a game i played today
16:51<jez9999>it was cool :-)
16:51<jez9999>would have taken hours by hand
16:51<@Bjarni>I wondered about that assert as well
16:51<jez9999>it worked pretty well, if i hadnt put it there i might not have noticed the problem :-)
16:51<jez9999>it should never fail if there is a depot with trains in should it?
16:51<@Bjarni>also why p2?
16:51<@Bjarni>I think you should hardcode that value to 1, not p2
16:52<jez9999>only because you hadn't got round to #defining that yet
16:52<jez9999>1 is nondescriptive, i have a comment near where i define p2
16:52<@Bjarni>maybe p2 isn't the best name for it though but ok
16:53<@Bjarni>as long as it will not look like that when the diff is done
16:53<jez9999>probably autoreplace_func.h should have a #define for that bit
16:53<jez9999>then i can 'or' it in
16:53<ln>"The Counterfeiters is the true story of the largest counterfeiting operation in history, set up by the Nazis in 1936."
16:54<@Bjarni>?
16:54<@Bjarni>who said that?
16:54<@Bjarni>is it a reliable source?
16:54<ln>summary of the movie i watched.
16:54<ln>it's from the internet, it is reliable.
16:54<jez9999>The Internet said that?
16:55<@Bjarni>I once found a technical description on the internet that can be proven to be wrong
16:55<jez9999>Bjarni: so when this cost estimate is fixed the only remaining issue (that i can remember) is NewGRF complaining about upgrades
16:55<@Bjarni>it was just some guy trying to deal with engineering issues without understanding them
16:56<jez9999>i was hoping you'd find a way to magically make it easy for me to deal with that :-)
16:56<jez9999>i was playing on openttdcoop's server today and see what you mean about maglev sets that only allow passengers
16:56<@Bjarni>I know how to deal with that
16:56<jez9999>what does my patch need to do?
16:56<@Bjarni>but the solution isn't compatible with the structure of autoreplace
16:56<jez9999>hmm
16:56<jez9999>what will it currently do?
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16:57<@Bjarni>right now it replace a train unit by unit from the start
16:57<@Bjarni>say you have A-B-C
16:57<@Bjarni>you replace A to D
16:57<@Bjarni>then it moves B-C to D so you get D-B-C
16:57<jez9999>right
16:58<@Bjarni>this is a problem if D and B can't connect due to NewGRF overwrite rules
16:58<jez9999>but presumably the command will just fail
16:58<@Bjarni>and they need to connect before moving on to replacing B to something that can connect to D
16:58<jez9999>i guess it's too late and will have f*cked up the train though :-)
16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12487 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/squirrel_export.awk: [NoAI] -Fix: the export script didn't properly determine the parameters of some functions.
16:59<jez9999>the desirable behaviour is to fail the upgrade
16:59<jez9999>and leave the train alone
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16:59<jez9999>maybe an error m,sg
17:00<jez9999>"use a newgrf set that lets you use whatever cargo you like, idiot"
17:00<@Bjarni>actually the desirable solution is to walk through the train and replace from the rear and connecting as it moves toward the front
17:01<@Bjarni>then it will replace A-B-C to D, E and F (not connected) and then place E in front of F and then D in front of E (making D-E-F)
17:01<@Bjarni>that way D and B will not need to be connected
17:01<jez9999>erm
17:01<ln>considering that B-C are Bjarni's initials, i'm not sure i want to know what D-B-C indicates.
17:01<jez9999>wouldnt that break the newgrf rules tho?
17:01<@Bjarni>...
17:01<ln>jez9999: http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
17:02<@Bjarni><jez9999> wouldnt that break the newgrf rules tho? <-- which rule?
17:02<jez9999>ln: quick typing no time for stuff like caps grammar speling punctuation and stuff
17:02<jez9999>Bjarni: if newgrf doesnt want D to connect to B, the command *should* fail, right?
17:02<@Bjarni>no
17:02<jez9999>D might be a maglev vehicle and B is an old livestock wagon, the newgrf set doesnt have a livestock wagon
17:03<jez9999>(for maglev)
17:03<ln>jez9999: why not leave out all 'a's, sves time too.
17:03<jez9999>greed
17:03<@Bjarni>say you have a DMU made out of two units (A1-A2) and you replace it to a DMU made out of two units (B1-B2). Input is A1-A2 (valid) and output is B1-B2 (also valid)
17:04<@Bjarni>then it should be a valid replacement
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17:05<jez9999>... but that's a diesel to a diesel
17:05-!-Slowpoke [~Slowpoke@dslb-088-073-206-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
17:05<jez9999>i'm thinking of a diesel to a maglev
17:05<@Bjarni>makes no difference
17:06<jez9999>i'm obviously misunderstanding here
17:06<@Bjarni>the point is that right now it fails if B1 and A2 can't connect
17:06<@peter1138>crossed wires
17:06<@peter1138>bjarni's talking about something different
17:06<@Bjarni>yes and no
17:06<@Bjarni>I'm talking about cases in general where the new and old types can't connect
17:07<ln>http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/metro/GPO/gpotrain.jpg
17:07<@Bjarni>if it fails for diesel to diesel it will for sure fail diesel to maglev as well
17:07<Sacro>3heh
17:07<Sacro>mount pleasent
17:07<jez9999>are DMUs the one with two engines?
17:07<jez9999>*ones
17:08<Prof_Frink>Not necessarily
17:08<@Bjarni>DMU means "Diesel Multiple Unit" and is basically one or more similar units with engines and passenger capacity
17:08<Prof_Frink>the HST has two engines, but is not a DMU
17:09<jez9999>oh they can hold cargo
17:09<@Bjarni>real DMUs can't so there are likely some newGRF ones that can't
17:09<@Bjarni>unless you count bikes and stuff as cargo
17:10<@peter1138>so the point is
17:10<@peter1138>moot
17:10<jez9999>my patch currently finds a compatible engine by looking for any engine of the new railtype
17:11<jez9999>hmm
17:11<@peter1138>and when it doesn't find appropriate wagons, it fails
17:11<@peter1138>as that's all it can do
17:11<@Bjarni>the point is if you have train A consisting of A1-A2 (type doesn't matter) and it's replaced to type B (B1-B2) and type A and B can't connect then we have a problem because autoreplace currently tries to connect B1 to A2 (this is the general description of what I tried to say before)
17:12<@Bjarni>so if A is diesel and B is maglev then we have your case
17:12<@Bjarni>if A is diesel and B is diesel then we have the issue that is known in the trunk
17:13<jez9999>i didnt know there were those kinds of rules
17:13<jez9999>something saying a particular model cant tow another particular wagon?
17:14<@Bjarni>yes
17:14<@Bjarni>or rather
17:14<@Bjarni>it has a list telling what it can connect to (like only it's own kind)
17:14<jez9999>no fun playing like that ;-)
17:15<jez9999>so the maglev-class engine would have a list of other maglev-class engines
17:15<jez9999>in a similar manner?
17:16<@Bjarni>I can't answer that
17:16<@Bjarni>presume that there is
17:16<@Bjarni>because the newGRF codec allows it
17:16<@Bjarni>and whatever code we code should work with all grf files
17:16<@Bjarni>also the future ones
17:17<@Bjarni>so even if there aren't any now there might be one in a month
17:17<@peter1138>simple, the upgrade fails, who cares
17:17<@Bjarni>jez9999, I presume
17:18<@Bjarni>and I know what he is thinking right now :P
17:18<@Bjarni>"SHIT!"
17:18<jez9999>huh?
17:18<@peter1138>mostly i think 'wtf is bjarni on'
17:18<jez9999>the grf set i was playing with today, there is a maglev train and just a passenger and mail wagon
17:19<jez9999>so there's no way it can possibly allow other cargoes
17:19<jez9999>(unless it allows connections from wagons of other track types which the default set funnily does)
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17:21<@Bjarni>peter1138: remember what happened to the last guy who talked about drugs in here?
17:21*Sacro gurles in the corner
17:22<@Bjarni>it wasn't you :P
17:22<@Bjarni>it's the perm banned guy
17:22<Sacro>questionmark?
17:22<@Bjarni>no
17:22<@Bjarni>...
17:23<Sacro>oh unhappyface:(
17:23<@Bjarni>it's the guy who have been perm banned for months and was in the list last time I checked
17:23-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:23<Prof_Frink>the only person in /BANS is questionmark
17:23<@Bjarni>now who did he drug to remove his ban?
17:23-!-jez9999 is now known as questionmark
17:23<questionmark>lala
17:23-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
17:23-!-questionmark is now known as jez9999
17:23<jez9999>did you see that?
17:23<jez9999>(my text(
17:24<Prof_Frink>...yes
17:24<jez9999>hmm i thought the ban should've stopped it
17:24<Mirrakor>jez9999: it's not the nick which is banned - it's the hostmask
17:24<Prof_Frink>#openttd: ban questionmark!*@* [by cation.oftc.net, 2292990 secs ago]
17:24<jez9999>looks like the nick to me
17:24<Prof_Frink>That looks like a nickban to me
17:24<Mirrakor>or to be more percicely it's the ident - isn't it?
17:25<Mirrakor>btw. any recommendations on how to join those tracks?
17:25<jez9999>nick!ident@host
17:26<Mirrakor>you're right, yes
17:26<Prof_Frink>jez9999: Very interesting.
17:26<Prof_Frink>The nick questionmark *is* banned from joining the channel
17:26-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*scenery@*.bethere.co.uk] by Bjarni
17:26<Eddi|zuHause3><ln> "The Counterfeiters is the true story of the largest counterfeiting operation in history, set up by the Nazis in 1936." <- it won an oscar and stuff, but is it actually good?
17:26<@Bjarni>looks like he wanted to try to be banned :P
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17:27-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*scenery@*.bethere.co.uk] by Bjarni
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17:27<jez>different ident
17:27<jez>:-)
17:27-!-jez is now known as jez9999
17:27<@Bjarni>hehe
17:27<@Bjarni>[23:27:09] <-- jez9999 has quit ()
17:27<@Bjarni>[23:27:12] --- Bjarni removes ban on *!*scenery@*.bethere.co.uk
17:27<@Bjarni>[23:27:13] --> jez (doronic@87-194-212-214.bethere.co.uk) has joined #openttd
17:27<jez9999>Bjarni: im still not quite seeing how your proposed second method of autoreplacement will work
17:28<jez9999>it starts from the right?
17:28<@Bjarni>it starts from the left and builds the new vehicles and when it reaches the end then it moves backwards and connects all the new vehicles
17:28<@Bjarni>well
17:28<@Bjarni>that is when I have coded what I'm planning to code
17:29<jez9999>so ABC becomes ABCDEF becomes DEF?
17:29<@Bjarni>no
17:29<Prof_Frink>ABC becomes D E F becomes DEF
17:29<@peter1138>still nothing to do with not having suitable wagons available
17:29<jez9999>no, but to do with newgrf rules
17:29<Sacro>ABC
17:29<@Bjarni>ABC becomes D BC, D E C, D E F, D EF, DEF
17:29<Sacro>easy as 123
17:30<jez9999>what if it builds D E F, then discovers it cant join something?
17:30<@Bjarni>then it reverts :)
17:30<jez9999>ah, i was waiting for something like that
17:30<jez9999>it has to hold the old train setup in mem
17:30<@Bjarni>using some code that I have already written but can't test until I have written something that calls it
17:31<jez9999>so what i currently do is CommandCost realcost = DoCommand(ddata.tile, VEH_TRAIN, p2, DC_EXEC, CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE);
17:31<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause3: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813547/trailers-screenplay-E34801-310 trailer looks interesting
17:31<jez9999>presumably the new method can fail the command if the replacement is invalid, and realcost will be a failed command
17:31<@Bjarni><jez9999> it has to hold the old train setup in mem <-- that's basically the idea. It takes a snapshot of the train so it knows what to revert to
17:31<jez9999>so i can just check for failure there?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause3>Mirrakor: that was not the question
17:32<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause3: can't tell you, didn't saw it
17:32<jez9999>also CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE will have to remember all the trains in the depot and revert if one replacement fails
17:32<jez9999>(when the all-or-nothing bit is set)
17:32<@Bjarni>Mirrakor: did anybody saw it?
17:32<@Bjarni>did they cut it in half? :p
17:32<Mirrakor>jez9999: yes it starts from the right - splitt off (2 and 2) and then join again later 4 rails again
17:33<Eddi|zuHause3>a propos saw... which part is current meanwhile?
17:33<@Bjarni>jez9999: no, the plan is that such issues should be discovered before DC_EXEC is set
17:33<jez9999>ah, that's why you questioned assert(!CmdFailed(depotcost));
17:33<jez9999>i see
17:33<@peter1138>pom te pom
17:33<jez9999>you cant get a cost if you can't replace
17:34<@Bjarni>right now I'm talking about how I want it to work, not how it works right now
17:34<@Bjarni>there is a big difference
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17:34<jez9999>yeah
17:35<jez9999>im also seeing why people were saying this should have a GUI
17:35<@Bjarni>the problem with this planned change is that I planned it in 2007 and it's still not done :(
17:35<jez9999>if you have weird rules saying you can only use certain wagons with certain engines, taking the first available may well fail and be useless
17:35<jez9999>ah :-\
17:35<jez9999>but now you have such a good motivation
17:35<jez9999>:-)
17:35-!-Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-177-200.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:35<@Bjarni>it's not lack of motivation
17:36<@Bjarni>it's lack of time
17:36-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-28.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
17:36<@Bjarni>in fact I should finish up preparing for tomorrow
17:36<@Bjarni>bye
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17:38<Mirrakor>http://alanblanchflower.co.uk/images/stations.png the lights in front of the upper station are exit signs, right? but what are the signs in the middle? (also upper station)
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17:43<MG>Anyone seen this issue: In multiplayer new players can build airpoets but not train stations??
17:44<mrfrenzy>wrong grfs probably
17:44<MG>no grfs loaded
17:45<@Rubidium>mrfrenzy: only when it's a pre-0.5.0 server, so *very* unlikely
17:45<MG>no this is RC1
17:45<@Rubidium>what version is it?
17:45<MG>RC1
17:46<@Rubidium>most likely is that somebody played with the settings for the amount of vehicles
17:46<MG>I'll check BRB
17:46<@Rubidium>what's the error when building the train stations?
17:47<Mirrakor>how can I set/change the direction of a signal?
17:47<@Rubidium>Mirrakor: click
17:47<MG>nope, maxes are 500, 500, 200, 300....only about 40 vehicles total in the games
17:47<MG>The error is simply "cannot build station here"
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17:48<MG>but I can place an airport
17:48<@Rubidium>MG: could you be more precise with the error message, because that's not an existing error message
17:49<MG>this is my server BTW and others are having the same issue
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17:49<MG>That is the error message verbatum....honest....
17:49<Axamentia>Is it due to number of aiports in cities MG?
17:50<MG>have a look....the server is Ilse of discovery and just join MG transport...
17:51<MG>the problem is placing stations anywhere on the map...
17:51<@Rubidium>MG: does "Can't build railway station here..." sound familiar?
17:52<MG>That's it.....
17:52<MG>Rub
17:52<MG>??
17:53<Sacro>Rubidium: "Unable to comply, building in progress"
17:54<MG>Nope, just the first one....
17:54<MG>Can't build railway station
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17:56<Prof_Frink>MG: How many other stations are there in this town?
17:56<MG>it's the whole map...and there are only 3 other players with small networks
17:57-!-dR3x4cK [~Miranda@p5499E9DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:58<MG>have a look....the server is Ilse of discovery and just join MG transport...
17:58<Mirrakor>which are the most important signals? and which signals do I've to place in front and after a fork?
17:58<Mirrakor>(two way railway system)
17:59<mrfrenzy>you need to read the signal guide on wiki mirrakor
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17:59<Mirrakor>I did - but I'm not much smarter :D
17:59<Mirrakor>there seems to be so many different signals :D
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18:00<Yexo>MG, I just joined your company, and I can build railway stations as normal
18:00<mrfrenzy>you have regular signals, and you have presignals
18:00<jez9999>there are 3 types of presignal
18:00<jez9999>entry, exit, and combo
18:00<mrfrenzy>presignals are three parts, entry, exit and combo
18:00<mrfrenzy>I'll let jez9999 talk so I can sleep ;)
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18:00<jez9999>no no you talk
18:00<jez9999>i wasnt going any firther
18:00<Mirrakor>yes, I got those I think I can even handle a normal train station - but path crossing?
18:00<jez9999>:-)
18:01<Mirrakor>how do I avoid that two trains will crash? :D
18:01<Yexo>Mirrakor, just use normal signals
18:01<jez9999>two trains will NEVER crash unless you make one of them ignore a signal
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18:01<mrfrenzy>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Guides:Presignals
18:01<Yexo>that is, unless you want to priorize one line above the other
18:01<MG>OK, WTF...I still can't and I have other players who can'either...tr right by dontfingley or any other city in the middle of the main landmass
18:02<Yexo>See, there is "dutfingley central" now
18:02<Mirrakor>Yexo: so the normal signals are enough? (I placed them all along the line)
18:02<Yexo>yep
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18:03<@Rubidium>:O my train's even making a (small) profit
18:03<MG>Ok, I can't explain this, I still can't build... others can't either...I have reset several companies too and unjoined and rejoined this company...
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18:04<MG>I see that...I'm still locked up though....
18:04<Yexo>MG: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Guides:Presignals is very usefull
18:04<MG>I'm no the signal guy LOL
18:06<Mirrakor>hm, does the combo signal reach to the next signal or is it limited somehow? (i.e. 10 tiles?)
18:06<MG>Well, I'm going to restart the server... I can't think what else to do...I'll have to see if this happens again. It's the first time I've had ANY problems with multiplayer...
18:07<MG>Thanks for the input guys and keep your ears open to see if anyone else has this issue...Cheers! :D
18:07<Yexo>it's not limited
18:08-!-jp [~Miranda@dslb-088-067-237-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: jp]
18:09<MG>It's my client, not the server,....
18:11<Mirrakor>woooh - the signals work - awsome! :D
18:12<MG>Verified, I restarted my client and it's fine now.... one for the books...
18:12<MG>Later guys and thanks as always
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18:16<Mirrakor>there's a city which won't let me build a bus stop - what can I do and why is this?
18:17<@Rubidium>tsss... and now he's destroying his company that's making quite a lot of money
18:17<mrfrenzy>you need to increase the rating
18:17<mrfrenzy>buy having frequent visits to your current staions
18:17<mrfrenzy>or building trees
18:17<mrfrenzy>the important part is *not* to demolish trees
18:17<mrfrenzy>you can also bribe em
18:18<Mirrakor>I build a tunnel - could that be why?
18:19<Mirrakor>can I see my rating somewhere btw?
18:19<mrfrenzy>click the town name
18:19<jez9999>Mirrakor: have you actually visited openttd.org?
18:20<Mirrakor>jez9999: yes
18:20<jez9999>or did you just come on this computer and find 'Openttd'?
18:21<Mirrakor>no jez9999 I visited openttd.org and I even read quite a few wiki pages - (also the tutorial of course) - but as you see the game can be really complexe
18:22<@Rubidium>Mirrakor: want to know something complex? Try YAPF :)
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18:23<Mirrakor>that was one of the path finding things - right?
18:23<@Rubidium>yes
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18:45<Mirrakor>yeah I'm starting to like my railway system :D
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19:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12488 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split order.h into order_base.h and order_func.h.
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20:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12489 /trunk/src/ (54 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: split station.h into station_base.h and station_func.h.
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20:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12490 /trunk/src/ (47 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: rename engine.h to engine_func.h and remove unneeded inclusions of engine.h and/or replace them with engine_type.h.
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 31 00:00:31 2008