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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-06

---Logopened Sun Apr 06 00:00:45 2008
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03:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12586 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: do not access an order's refit variables directly.
03:13<Noldo>is there some kind of bounding box information available for a station?
03:16<@Rubidium>depots on the kind of bounding box
03:16<@Rubidium>in game tiles or visually
03:17<@Rubidium>must not be awake yet
03:17<Noldo>game tiles
03:18<@Rubidium>something with rect
03:19<Noldo>struct StationRect, thank you
03:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12587 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: unduplicate some code in the Unpack*Order functions and move the 'normal' case Pack/Unpack to Order.
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03:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12588 /trunk/src/ (18 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: do not access the destination of an order directly.
04:01<Eddi|zuHause2>rubidium is into orders today?
04:02<@Rubidium>nah, just breaking some patches ;)
04:06<Tefad>patches do things that aren't kosher?
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04:53<Wolf01>hey, something gone wrong with r12580... all my vehicles, trains, ships, aircrafts are stuck in a loop of "enter and exit the stations"
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04:56<Wolf01>mmm no, seem that ships are the only which still work
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05:00<Maedhros>Wolf01: that might be fixed in r12581
05:01<Wolf01>good to know :)
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05:50<larsemil>hey. Sdl is fun. why didnt anyone tell me
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07:38<jez>Just watched Total Recall for the first time, freaky
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause2>would you recall (:p) me what that movie was about?
07:48<Wolf01>schwarzenegger on mars
07:52<@peter1138>recall you? what language is that?
07:53<@peter1138>Wolf01: and a 3rd breast, or something
07:53<@peter1138>something about instant terraforming
07:56<Wolf01>like on ottd?
07:58<@peter1138>more so
07:59<Patrick`>oh crap ...
07:59<Patrick`>I was playing my ottd save last night when I was drunk
08:00<Patrick`>and I did ctrl-clone instead of clone to set up new train stations, so every time I made a new coal pickup I sent every single coal train there
08:02<Patrick`>basically, instead of passenger destinations we need something that emulates the end result but is programmatically simpler.
08:02<Patrick`>currently, if you have half a dozen towns in a line with a train station in each,you make more money passing one train between the two furthest stations and ignoring the ones inbetween. stopping at every single station is amusingly less profitable.
08:02<Patrick`>this needs to be reversed. passenger destinations is one way to do it
08:03<jez>yeah schwarzenegger on mars
08:03<jez>bit too much gratuitous violence, unfortunately
08:03<jez>think that detracted a bit from the storyline
08:03<jez>apart from that cool movie though
08:03<jez>and you dont know whether the whole thing was a memory implanted into him or not, they leave it in suspense
08:04<Patrick`>total recall = win
08:08<Eddi|zuHause2><peter1138> recall you? what language is that? <- it was not supposed to be correct... it was supposed to be "remind me" but with a play on words
08:10<Eddi|zuHause2>schwarzenegger movies have storylines?
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08:15<Wolf01>schwarzenegger movies can change between "nice family movie" to "true lies" in a bunch of seconds
08:16<jez>yeah true lies is ok up until they start doing off and shooting people
08:17<jez>then it descends into just another Rambo
08:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12589 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: GetLastError support for AIBridge.
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08:48<Ammler>how do I protect old revisions (0.5.3) from loading a GRF?
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause2>by checking the OTTD revision/version from the grf?
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08:51<Ammler>thats supported after 0.5.3 :-)
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08:52<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly, and what value does that return before that was introduced?
08:53<Ammler>hmm, since when is "Fatal Error" (stopping loading) impelmented?
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08:54<@Rubidium>Ammler: see extras/ottd_grf/split/openttd.nfo
08:55<Eddi|zuHause2>you do not necessarily need to generate an error to skip loading the file
08:56<@Rubidium>Ammler: extras as in svn://
08:56<Ammler>yep, I am there
08:57<Ammler>seems nice commented nfo :-)
08:57<Ammler>I have made a real town names grf with around 2k names and get some segmentations errors
08:58<Ammler>there is no size limit for sprites in nfo?
09:04<@Rubidium>there shouldn't
09:05<@Rubidium>but if it segfaults, that's bad... maybe glx knows more
09:05<+glx>do you know where it segfault?
09:06<Ammler>glx: it segfaults at 0.5.3
09:06<Ammler>but hats not a problem, because that doesn't support New Names anyway
09:06<+glx>hmm does 0.5.3 support action F ?
09:06<Ammler>so I just looking to skip it :-)
09:07<Ammler>the nfo Rubidium pointed does help for that
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09:16<Ammler>seems to work fine now, thanks Rubidium. Now I am going to check it with current trunk.
09:17<Ammler>Is it wanted, that a Town Names GRF with same Name replaces the builtin Names?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause2>(Translation: i don't understand that question, can you rephrase that please?)
09:18<Ammler>I made a GRF "Swiss", that is already in the ottd source.
09:19<Ammler>but in the GUI list, you find only one Swiss and if you create a map with that, it takes the Names from GRF
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09:20<Ammler>Thats fine with me, but I am not sure, if that is wanted by the devs or just a lucky accident :-)
09:20<Eddi|zuHause2>it would be very confusing to have two "Swiss" entries
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09:26<@peter1138>maybe all GRF town names should be suffixed with (NewGRF) or similar)
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09:27<Ammler>peter1138: I like the idea with replacing
09:27<@peter1138>why did you bring it up then? :p
09:27<Ammler>you can disable the GRF if you want the original
09:28<Ammler>I didn't test, if that also has influence to the name in the CFG
09:30<Ammler>and if you haven't translated info a special language, you have still both
09:30<Ammler>(Swiss and Suiçe or whater ever)
09:31<Ammler>I saw, glx added (GRF) at his examples.
09:32<Forked>I really should learn to code.. but gta4 is out soon :\
09:32<Forked>oh I mean.. err.. meep meep
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09:33<Ammler>can I see somehow easy, how many towns are on a map (2048²)
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause2>new game, many towns, will show a counter xxx/yyyy generated
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09:45<jez>monday tomorrow
09:45<jez>weekend seems to have disappeared quickly again
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09:50<Mirrakor>like always
09:53<Alberth>Anybody else experiencing crashes with r12588?
09:55<SmatZ>Alberth: what kind of crashes?
09:55<Alberth>oldpool.h:125: T* OldMemoryPool<T>::Get(uint) const [with T = Station]: Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed.
09:55<Ammler>[15:39] <Eddi|zuHause2> new game, many towns, will show a counter xxx/yyyy generated <-- only if there are so many available
09:56<Eddi|zuHause2>what do you mean with "available"?
09:56<SmatZ>Alberth: yes
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09:56<SmatZ>seems to happen with AI
09:57<SmatZ>hmm no no no nothing
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09:57<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: if a grf has only about 100 Names but it likes to generate about 1000 Names, the GUI says 1000 Names generated
09:58<Ammler>but you only have those 100 Names
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>you can't easily calculate the number of possible combinations, because you cannot filter duplicates
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09:59<Ammler>I was just wondering, if there is possibility _after_ generating, how many towns are on the map
10:00<Eddi|zuHause2>it should be easy code wise, but the town list only shows the total population, afaik
10:00<@peter1138>count the list ;)
10:00<Ammler>I have the feeling, I don't get all my Names, something with the probablity is wrong...
10:01<Eddi|zuHause2>after you get close to saturation, the probability to find a new name is quite low
10:02<Ammler>then it will skipped not repeated?
10:02<Ammler>I thought it tries an other time
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10:03<Eddi|zuHause2>you pull from the urn with putting back (in case you have multiple parts, the same part may be used again to form another combination)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause2>if you hit a combination that forms a duplicate, you throw it away and try again
10:03<Eddi|zuHause2>but you stop after a few tries
10:04<Eddi|zuHause2>within these tries, you might not find that last possible unused combination
10:04<Ammler>that must be my problem...
10:04<Eddi|zuHause2>so it will not appear in the game
10:04<Ammler>I have NO combinations
10:04<Ammler>only a list with real names
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>you have combinations with 1 element each
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>but the game is probably not optimised for this
10:05<Ammler>so you need about 20k possibilities to reach 1k Names
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>no... definitely not...
10:07<Eddi|zuHause2>mathmatical experiment
10:07<Eddi|zuHause2>say you have a list of 1000 names
10:07<Eddi|zuHause2>and try to generate 100 towns, and get a combination once for each town
10:07<Eddi|zuHause2>first town is 0% chance to hit an existing name
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>second town is 0.1% for an existing name
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>third town is 0.2% for an existing name
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>sum up these probabilities, and you'll get an expected value for the number of "missed out" towns
10:08<Ammler>then I have to adjust probablity better, I feat :/
10:10<Eddi|zuHause2>assume this probably rises linearly with the number of towns you generated, then the sum will rise with the square of that number
10:11<Eddi|zuHause2>so the closer you get to the maximum number of names, it gets almost impossible to find a new name
10:12<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12590 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_airport.cpp ai_bridge.cpp ai_company.cpp ai_error.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: EnforcePrecondition macro to make code much better readable.
10:12<Eddi|zuHause2>but 0/1000+1/1000+2/1000+...+100/1000=5050/1000, so of the first 100 towns, roughly 5 towns don't get a new name
10:12<Eddi|zuHause2>so you end up with 95 towns
10:13<Eddi|zuHause2>example clear?
10:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: I guess so...
10:14<Ammler>I set the probablity to the well known towns to high, so they was choosen too much
10:14<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, my example was assuming even distribution
10:15<Eddi|zuHause2>the more you divert from that, the less towns you end up with
10:15<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: it tries a few times per 'town' in generated towns
10:16<@Rubidium>with different location and name iirc
10:16<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, i said that, i just simplified it for the example
10:17<Ammler>Rubidium: I had some strange results at the beginning as I set the range of probablity to 32bits, most time only one town was generated
10:18<Ammler>OzTransLtd said something simular for CaNames
10:18<Ammler>now, I summarized all town probablity and use only the needed probablity bits, seems to work
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10:20<Ammler>OzTrans coded canames for both plattforms splitted, he didn't use intermediate sprites.
10:27<Alberth>SmatZ: I think I got the problem. In aircraft_cmd.cpp, near line 709: v->current_order.GetDestination()=65535
10:28<Alberth>looks a bit too suspicious :)
10:28<SmatZ>65535 is 0xFFFF, that is INVALID_ORDER
10:28<SmatZ>or something INVALID :)
10:29<SmatZ>Rubidium did changes there today, he will know how to fix it :)
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10:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12591 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_type.h): -Codechange: move CommandCost accessors to header file, 8kB of binary size saved
10:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12592 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12580): aircraft's go-to-depot handling is a mess, which assumes destination to be a station even when it did not set a destination yet.
11:09<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12593 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: hide Order's flags in most of the code.
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11:43<Alberth>(10:59:33 AM) Maedhros: Wolf01: that might be fixed in r12581 <--- in r12593, it is not solved.
11:44<Alberth>The crash on GetDestination() is solved though. Tnx Rubidium
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12:25<Mark>is it not kind of weird owned-land-signs of competitors can be bridged?
12:25<Mark>hmm channel seems pretty in-active
12:37*edeca wakes up
12:37<edeca>Well.. they own the square, not the sky too! :)
12:43<Forked>meep meep..
12:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12594 /trunk/src/ (driver.cpp driver.h): -Codechange: move large functions from driver.h to driver.cpp to reduce binary size and compile time
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13:08<amix>ok. want to report a quiting bug in the morphos version of openttd.
13:08<amix>***Unfreed signals 00800000!
13:08<@Rubidium>tokai ^
13:09<amix>he claims its not on his side ;p
13:10<@Rubidium>he's the only one that might be able to fix it because he has a) knowledge of MorphOS and b) MorphOS (or so I hope)
13:11<amix>I know
13:12<amix>but he says its got to do with openttd, not the morphos version as ive understood it
13:13<@Rubidium>if it is OpenTTD you should be able to reproduce it on non-MorphOS
13:14<@Rubidium>as long as I do not hear about the same bug from someone running non-MorphOS, the only assumption I can make is that it has be something MorphOS specific
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13:15<@Rubidium>ah, it seems like it's something with SDL
13:22<edeca>Argh, why doesn't a station near a power station accept oil (newgrf with ECS)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause2>ECS does not make all power plants accept oil
13:24<amix>Rubidium: SDL?
13:25<@Rubidium>the library used for graphics stuff
13:26<amix>SDL for morphos or all?
13:27<@Rubidium>only MorphOS
13:27<edeca>Eddi|zuHause2: Ar, annoying. It has a queue space for it, that's all
13:27<@Rubidium>or it isn't as chatty with other versions
13:29<@Rubidium>amix: anyhow, exiting an application means: OS please clean up my mess because you know what I took *and* because you have to do it in case other applications do not clean up everything
13:30<@Rubidium>closing everything 'nicely' from OpenTTD would cause the closing of OpenTTD take a bit longer and then the OS has to recheck everything anyways
13:30<amix>there isnt any freeze
13:30<amix>just that tokai dosent like bugs i guess
13:32<@Rubidium>the support for MorphOS at the moment is so messy that it's not even likely that there'll be a 0.7.0 version for MorphOS, unless MorphOS releases a newer compiler and such.
13:33<@Rubidium>(read: quite horrible hacks are currently done to make MorphOS create a working binary, but that's likely not enough to get 0.7.0 running based on what might go into 0.7.0)
13:33<edeca>ECS definitely make the game harder :)
13:34<amix>my morphos desktop
13:34<amix>using it everyday
13:35<edeca>I can usually break even in a few years and make millions.. ECS I am running at about 2:1 profit:cost
13:35<amix>Rubidium: new graphics stuff into 0.7.0 ?
13:36<@Rubidium>amix: no, just code cleanups (use of templates that gcc 2.95 doesn't understand)
13:36<@Rubidium>and NoAI is a nice example of that
13:36<@Rubidium>won't compile with gcc 2.95
13:37<edeca>That's a very old GCC though :)
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13:37<@Rubidium>well, that's the whole problems with MorphOS
13:39<amix>what version of gcc does openttd need?
13:39<@Rubidium>for NoAI I guess 3.3+
13:40<amix>i dont know what morphos 2.0 will support
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13:42<amix>Rubidium: without sounding as a morphos fanboy or anything like that. to be honest, ive never experienced better gameplay on other oses. morphos version seems to be the most stable version ive tried of winxp, osx and morphos.
13:46<Sacro>do i need a ppc for morphos?
13:46<amix>Efika or Pegasos, PegasosII
13:47<amix>later on maybe ppc macs
13:47<amix>but this is something tokai knows more about
13:47<amix>as he is a morphos developer
13:48<@Rubidium>there hasn't even been any MorphOS related chatter on the gcc website for more than 3.5 years
13:49<@Rubidium>so not quite encouraging for a gcc >= 3 for MorphOS
13:50<@Rubidium>and the MorphOS website(s) aren't exactly user friendly
13:50<amix>there is all
13:50<amix>morphos people kinda keep things silent i guess
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13:54<@Rubidium>amix: that site sucks; there are exactly 0 projects, a forum with three posts in the last 2 years, there is exactly 1 development tool (sounds a little scarce), the 'library' has a 50% chance of showing empty 'categories' and the other 50% has 1-3 posts from before october 2003
13:56<amix>and you have
13:56<amix>which is one of worlds biggest file archives
13:57<@Rubidium>wow... signs of a gcc 4
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13:59<amix>Rubidium: when mos2.0 releases. people will come back to the platform
13:59<amix>it will be active again
13:59<@Bjarni>wtf is mos2.0?
13:59<@peter1138>morphos is dead
13:59<amix>as it is now, its pretty community driven more or less
13:59<@Bjarni>ahh MorphOS
13:59<amix>Bjarni: ;)
13:59<@Bjarni>in order to at least have a chance it has to have a fully working GCC 4
14:00<@Bjarni>otherwise porting is too hard
14:00<@Rubidium>Bjarni: why do you promise that it is portable?
14:00<@Bjarni>and then the platform will lack apps
14:00<@Bjarni>Rubidium: I don't
14:01<@Rubidium>porting is too hard != porting is impossible
14:01<@Bjarni>oh right
14:01<@Bjarni>I stand corrected
14:02<Patrick`>I thought openttd was already on morphos
14:03<@Rubidium>Patrick`: it is, but it's a hack to get it working
14:03<Patrick`>since the switch to c++ or always?
14:03<@Rubidium>and with the current state of affairs their ancient compiler won't handle NoAI
14:04<Patrick`>would it be hard to write python bindings for noAI?
14:04<@Rubidium>hacks are since C++ (IIRC)
14:04<Patrick`>I know that's totally retarded because python's so slow
14:04<Patrick`>but it would be nice to hack about a bit
14:04<@Rubidium>Patrick`: I've got no idea
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16:56<Wolf01> God's playing OTTD?
16:58<thgergo>what the hell is that?
17:00<@Rubidium>a sink hole
17:00<@Rubidium>probably due to a leaking sewer pipe
17:00<Sacro>bloody hell
17:01<Wolf01>I have one of these under my house, tomorrow I might not me here O_O
17:01<@Rubidium> <- more pictures (of another sinkhole)
17:01<Sacro>Wolf01: meh, you'll be fine
17:03<Wolf01>think about how much time you take to dig that hole with ordinary machinery... just forget a leak and the water does it for you :P
17:04<Wolf01>and now... they'll fill it?
17:05<Digitalfox>How can a Hole of that size happen without people noticing it days before? Like little holes, any shaking, etc.. ?? :\
17:05<Digitalfox>And where does the land go?
17:06<Wolf01>the water digs out the land, transform it to sand and carry it to the sea
17:06<Digitalfox>It's amazing the size of it, I can't even see the end of it :|
17:06<Wolf01>or in Australia
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17:07<Digitalfox>But wolf01 are there any river below that hole?
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17:07<Digitalfox>It's just so many land it has to take :\
17:07<Wolf01>maybe not, as Rubidium said is enough a leak on a pipe... larger is the pipe, quick is the work of the water
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17:09<@peter1138>hmm, that's big
17:09<@Rubidium>Digitalfox: it just takes very long before the hole is so big that the ground above the hole is so weak that it collapse. In that long period a lot of soil can be moved by a leaking sewer pipe.
17:11<Wolf01>"very long", not so many years, if the rock is weak, the water consume it quickly enough to have such hole in 10 years
17:13<Digitalfox>And when a hole of that size appears can it be filled with land?
17:13<Digitalfox>I mean just land?
17:15<Wolf01>maybe... but I won't build anything over it
17:17<Wolf01>(I think they used to fill it with asbest, plutonium, scrap cars, dead livestock and desaparecidos)
17:17<sHELL>oh... big holes
17:18<sHELL>kinda suprising it does not cave in or something
17:19<@peter1138>well it has...
17:19<sHELL>yes.. but the surounding area
17:19<sHELL>I mean, cave in any further
17:24<Wolf01>doesn't that is enough?
17:24<Wolf01>it is enough big
17:25<Wolf01>or big enough
17:26<sHELL>hmmm gues the earth is a bit diffrent then what I am used to
17:26<sHELL>earth... ground
17:26<sHELL>ah yeah
17:27<sHELL>here its always sand... if there would be a hole in my hometown, the entire town would disapear because verything would cave in until its leveld
17:27<sHELL>bed time
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17:28<Wolf01>ok, seem that I can't put two words together in italian too
17:28<Wolf01>bed time for me too
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17:30<Sacro>4. spelen. geen crack nodig. <- thoughts?
17:33<@Rubidium>should I express them directly?
17:34<Sacro>Rubidium: why not
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17:34<Sacro>i think it says "4. play. no crack needed."
17:34<Sacro>but i'm not sure
17:34<Mark>Sacro: youre right
17:36<@Rubidium>another of Sacro's suggestive sentences...
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17:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12595 /trunk/src/ (order_base.h order_cmd.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Codechange: hide Order's flags in the last few cases.
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>"4. spielen, kein crack nötig." ... it's not THAT hard to translate...
18:08<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: well i was fine up until nötig
18:08<Sacro>could mean anything D:
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18:14<ln>where is this world going if a second generation fascist cannot have a nazi-themed orgy without losing his job?
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18:32<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12596 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: show what cargos a station could be supplied with. Patch by Roujin.
18:33<Patrick`>ooh, shiny
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18:52<Zuu>Nice to see that patch hit trunk :)
18:52<Osai>?dih noch wach?
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19:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12597 /branches/noai/ (133 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12501:12596.
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19:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12598 /branches/ (MiniIN/ cargo-packets/ coopetition/ map/ mempool/): [Several] -Remove some obsolete and (thus) stale branches.
19:43<SmatZ>RIP MiniIN :-(
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19:46<Ammler>RIP coopetition :-)
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19:49<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12599 /trunk/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: force AllocateSafeRaw() to be linked to simplify compiler's decisions about inlining
19:50<SmatZ>Ammler: what was the meaning of coopetition?
19:51<SmatZ>to include some patches for openttdcoop?
19:53<Ammler>competition in teams
19:54<SmatZ> I do not see any commited changes
19:54<Ammler>I guess, there is only the branch
19:54<Ammler>Truelight had some patches
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>ln: next thing you start talking about second generation pedophiles or something... you definitely deserve a big slap for this
19:57<Ammler>SmatZ: the date of creating the branch was almost same as death of it
19:57<Ammler>but the idea is still cool :-)
19:58<Ammler>some guys also programmed a ladder system
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21:03<THM-SFG>does someone know how i could plant specific industries randomly? e.g. i want to place oil & cole indutries only at places i choose, but farms and wood industries should be placed all over the map at random. any ideas?
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21:08<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: why? not every country is like germany
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22:38<AllAboard>Hello I am having a problem with the OS X version of OpenTTD. I have searched through the forum's and wiki but cannot seem to find anything. My problem is simple: I have no vehicles listed, I cannot build any vehicles or depots. I have all the correct files, do I need to configure it somewhere? Many thanks!
22:42<+glx>check the date
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22:43<Tefad>yeah, try starting in 1935 or so
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22:44<De_Ghosty>what u mean
22:44<De_Ghosty>i though trains were invented in 1600
22:44<De_Ghosty>and cars invented in the 1200
22:45<Tefad>De_Ghosty: not in game.
22:49<AllAboard>Ok, will do.
22:52<AllAboard>Cool, I have trucks in 1938. The train construction is still grey/blocked... do I have to wait for it to develop?
22:59<Tefad>AllAboard: something like that
22:59<Tefad>depends on vehicle set too
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23:00<+glx>check on the wiki, all appearance dates are there
23:01<+glx>and that depends on climate too
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 07 00:00:25 2008