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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-11

---Logopened Fri Apr 11 00:00:46 2008
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03:42<Alberth>Rubidium: Is the BaseWindow out the window, or are you still discussing it?
03:44<@Rubidium>it's just that we don't like lots of lines doing what a simple memset would be able to do
03:45<@Rubidium>doesn't mean that the idea isn't good
03:47<Alberth>when moving from struct to class, the logical next step is to initialize the class in its constructor. You will get those lines then anyway.
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03:49<Alberth>In addition, you can initialize data members to XXX_INVALID or NULL, which are not necessarily 0-bits
03:50<@Rubidium>if NULL isn't 0 then OTTD wouldn't even work on that platform
03:50<@Rubidium>and I don't think NULL != 0 happens on any 'recent' platform
03:51<@Rubidium>primarily because the linux kernel assumes NULL to be 0, which means it works on a vast number of platforms
03:52<Tefad>i think C++ requires the null pointer to be recognized as 0 anyway.
03:53<Tefad>the compiler should do tricks to find out context if 0 != null pointer.
03:53<Alberth>In the C++ language yes, in memory not necessarily
03:53<Tefad>see above.
03:54<Alberth>theoretically, address 0 in memory could be a legal address to put an object. In that case the c++ compiler would use a a different bit pattern to represent NULL pointer (which you'd still write as 0 or NULL in your program)
03:55<@Rubidium>though that doesn't happen on the platforms that OTTD supports.
03:56<Alberth>a different question, does c++ guarantee that you can safely memset an allocated object (ie in the middle of _windows)?
03:56<Alberth>Rubidium: I said *theoretically*
03:57<@Rubidium>memsetting an object with virtual functions fails, but there are tricks to solve that easily
03:58*Rubidium points to the pools
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04:03<@peter1138>hmm
04:03<Alberth>is it tasty?
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04:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12657 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: add 'FindClosestDepot' to the vehicle class.
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04:26<Alberth>Rubidium: I am getting quite confused now. You said that introducing the base class was a problem. Now you say that you don't like 20-30 lines var=0; can you define the problem more precisely please?
04:30<Alberth>can mem-pools handle different classes (of different size)?
04:31<@peter1138>no
04:31<blathijs>I have been working on new mem pools that can (ie, one mempool for each subclass)
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04:34<HMage>мямя. всем привет.
04:34<@peter1138>quiet
04:35<@Rubidium>Alberth: I didn't say that the base class is a problem; I just said that I didn't like the addition of that vast array of variables that is initialized to 0
04:36<@Rubidium>because 'tomorrow' someone adds a variable and that person forgets to explicitly zero it and we're going to have all kinds of funny bugs
04:37<Alberth>in that case, your message was slightly too cryptic for me.
04:38<Alberth>this can be solved by deriving from a mem-pool thus?
04:38<blathijs>Doesn't C++ provide some warning for unitialized variables?
04:39<@Rubidium>no, the mempool code shows you how you can do it with memset
04:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12658 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Codechange: unify a vast portion of the CmdSend<VehicleType>ToDepot commands.
04:41<Alberth>i have in my mind that c++ does initialize all data members (ie implicit mydata()) when you don't specify anything
04:42<Alberth>Rubidium: was your no for me or for blathijs?
04:42<blathijs>Alberth: for you
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04:49<Roujin>@revision
04:49<Alberth>would implementing a new operator with memset for Window be a solution?
04:49<Roujin>hmpf i always forget these bot commands ><
04:49<Alberth>Roujin: 12658
04:50<Roujin>wow, that's one clever bot ;) thanks :P
04:51<Alberth>well i do have the problem of ambigious interpretation :)
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04:57<Alberth>argh. no it isn't in the current setting :(
04:57<Roujin>what isn't in the current setting?
04:58<Alberth>(10:48:28 AM) Alberth: would implementing a new operator with memset for Window be a solution? <-- this
04:59<Alberth>it is only after eliminating _windows
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05:16<sulai>Hey guys =)
05:17<@Rubidium>Alberth: yes
05:17<@Rubidium>'lo sulai
05:17<sulai>I can't register to Flyspray... some errors are comming up. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=680872#p680872
05:18<sulai>Is this issue known?
05:19<@Rubidium>can you login with the username/password you entered?
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05:20<@Rubidium>if so, then it has been fixed a gazillion times (or so said the maintainer of flyspray)
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05:20<@peter1138>fixed just like WT2...
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05:22<sulai>Rubidium: no, I can't register as a new user
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05:24<@Rubidium>sulai: you should try pressing the lost password thingy
05:24*peter1138 tests
05:24<@Rubidium>seems the user has been made
05:24<@peter1138>works for me
05:24<@peter1138>leaving the jabber stuff blank
05:24<sulai>Rubidium: I am not yet registered to Flyspray at all
05:24<@peter1138>at least, the first part does
05:25<@Rubidium>sulai == Martin R......
05:25<@Rubidium>with some dots too few
05:25<sulai>hm ok I'll try =)
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05:25<@peter1138>yeah
05:26<@peter1138>you get the error when trying to register with an already existing username
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05:28<sulai>Rubidium: I tried the lost password thing, when I press "Send link", it says:
05:28<sulai>Notice: Undefined index: action in /www/openttd.org/bugs/scripts/modify.php on line 1797
05:28<sulai>Notice: Undefined index: action in /www/openttd.org/bugs/scripts/modify.php on line 2231
05:28<sulai>A message has been sent to your notification address. It contains a link that will take you to a page to complete this task.
05:29<Eddi|zuHause3>most likely these errors are meaningless
05:30<@Rubidium>stupid fracking flyspray
05:30<Eddi|zuHause3>if you get no email, the two most obvious reasons are wrong address
05:30<Eddi|zuHause3>or spam blocker
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05:32<@peter1138>somehow i doubt that every flyspray install has these problems
05:33<Eddi|zuHause3>must be the admin ;)
05:33<@peter1138>i wouldn't like to say
05:33<@Rubidium>most'll use MySQL instead of PostgreSQL
05:33<@peter1138>true
05:33<@peter1138>many idiots put up with mysql :(
05:42<sulai>Rubidium: there is no email in my inbox / junk mail folder... =(
05:43<@Rubidium>that sucks, cause then I can't help you and you have to contact MiHaMiX
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05:47<sulai>how to contact MiHaMiX?
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05:55<Alberth>sulai: maybe you should wait a while, and give the Internet a chance to transport the mail
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06:00<Roujin>nice Alberth
06:01<Roujin>(your patch)
06:01<@Rubidium>sulai: his contact info is on openttd's website, but do not expect a swift reply from him :(
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06:01<sulai>hm anyway, better late than never =)
06:02<sulai>thanks guys
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06:06<Roujin>Alberth: you could have the .diff create the new file too, so there'd be no need to copy stuff, no?
06:07<Roujin>but i reckon you've got a lot more experience with that stuff, so i better not advise you ^^
06:07<sulai>what is the patch about Alberth is working on?
06:08<Alberth>FS#1905
06:08<Roujin>making windows object oriented
06:09<Roujin>nothing fancy for users but i think devs will like it;)
06:09<Noldo>-fancy
06:09<Alberth>about 200K patches later, users will benefit :)
06:09<Alberth>s/K/KB/
06:10<Alberth>Roujin: "so there'd be no need to copy stuff": yes, but you loose history of the file if not copying with svn
06:12<Alberth>gtg, bye
06:13<sulai>I haven't been to ottd for a while... are you working on a conversion to C++ OO ?
06:13<sulai>hm well I like it too ;)
06:14<Alberth>yes, but no new functionality, just code refactoring
06:15<Alberth>(very much tempted to type ^D here to leave, but the program would understand that probably)
06:15<Noldo>features are overrated ;)
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06:43<SmatZ>Q: How long does compilation of 2.6 kernel take on a 200MHz PMMX? A: AGES!
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07:16<Volley>unless using distcc :)
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08:25<Sacro>hmm, shall i broadcast the lecture on teamspeak?
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09:11<Mirrakor>make it available as podcast ;)
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09:17<Ammler>We are currently playing a Stream only game (old area), but sometimes, it happens, you buy a new car or build a modern station. So I looked, if it's possible to set it over patches, but found only the constant MAX_YEAR, possible to replace that with a patch setting? (http://www.openttdcoop.org/ammler/max_year.diff)
09:20<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12659 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Cleanup: some style cleanups in vehicle.cpp.
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: you could do something with the daylength patch
09:33<Eddi|zuHause3>there was recently an update for really really high factors, which then displays the date in hours/minutes
09:33<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: my patch works
09:34<Ammler>I fear the balancing of daypatch...
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3>i was not questioning that
09:34<Ammler>the patch I posted uses the "old" max 2090) workaround :-)
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3>it just might be a more sensible solution than just cycling the same year over and over
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09:36<yeti_>hi :)
09:37<yeti_>does that new "plane speed factor" patch do what i think it does? i.e. 1/2 means plane speed is halved compared to what it was before (0.5.2) ?
09:37<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: I am not a coder, I can only change small peces of code :-)
09:37<Ammler>+i
09:37<+glx>yeti_: 1/4 == TTD speed, 1/1 == same as other vehicles
09:38<@Rubidium>so 1/2 means double the speed
09:38<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: the patch is there, just needs to be applied ;)
09:38<yeti_>so 1/4 for superfast planes then.. great
09:39<Eddi|zuHause3>no
09:39<Eddi|zuHause3>1/4 for original speed
09:39<Eddi|zuHause3>1/1 for fast speed
09:41<Roujin>nice work with the order buttons btw, Rubidium
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09:58<Ammler>transfer has changed with that GUI, so no transfer income anymore?
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09:58<@Belugas>has there EVER been ANY income with transfers????
09:59<Ammler>ah, I need to set no loading
10:00<Ammler>Belugas: the yellow part?
10:01<@Belugas>yes
10:01<@Belugas>it is not income
10:01<@Belugas>at all
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10:01<@Belugas>green is income
10:01<Ammler>yeah
10:02<Ammler>somehow I missed those, but it appears now
10:10<Mirrakor>I've a question, I've got three train stations: S1: accepts coal and passangers, S2: provides coal(is in the middle) and S3: accepts passengers. I've to two trains on the rail: Train one should move between S1 and S2 - and the other one moves between S2 and S3
10:10<Mirrakor>now I want that T1 unloads passengers to S2 and T1 to pick them up..
10:14<Eddi|zuHause3>use "unload" order
10:14<Mirrakor>but then T1 won't load coal (sorry - if I didn't mentioned that)
10:15<@Belugas>poor passengers... suffocating by the dust of coal been loaded/unloaded :(
10:15<Eddi|zuHause3>Mirrakor: in any case, transfering passengers will not work both ways
10:16<Mirrakor>good to know..
10:16<Mirrakor>hm..
10:16<@Belugas>you can't specify orders by cargo type (last time i check anyway)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause3>that might very well be the next commit ;)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause3>considering the "instability" of orders lately ;)
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10:17<Kloopy>How far out the back of a station will wagons get filled up?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause3>Mirrakor: the only solution would be the passenger destinations patch, then passengers will switch trains automatically
10:18<Eddi|zuHause3>Kloopy: the train always loads all wagons, but it'll be very slow
10:18<Kloopy>Ah, so it's the loading rate that's affected? Cool
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10:19<Mirrakor>Is the passenger destination patch in the regular patch settings?
10:20<Eddi|zuHause3>no, Mirrakor
10:20<Eddi|zuHause3>it's an inofficial development, you must patch the source code and compile
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10:21<Eddi|zuHause3>on windows xp you can do that with buildottd
10:21<yeti_>does the money you get for delivering cargo depend on point-to-point distance or on the number of track pieces travelled?
10:22<yeti_>i.e. if you're making large detourss, does that give extra money or not?
10:22<Eddi|zuHause3>yeti_: "air distance" between the station signs
10:22<yeti_>ok, thanks
10:22<Eddi|zuHause3>where "air" is "manhattan", i believe
10:22<Celestar>yeah, afaik it's manhattan distance
10:23<Celestar>geometric distance is expensive to calculate and would require fixed-point arithmetic (which is in branches/gamebalance/ but not in trunk/)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause3>which _someone_ abandoned ;)
10:24<@Rubidium>well, he wants to fly in 2013 ;)
10:24<@Rubidium>or rather he might want to fly
10:24<Celestar>(=
10:24<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause3: I didn't abandon it. I ran outta time in the past 6 months
10:24<Eddi|zuHause3>same in green...
10:25<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't have to justify ;)
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10:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12660 /trunk/src/ (42 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make the creation of depot order strings a little more modular (instead of causing a string explosion).
10:27<Celestar>well it appears that other things come first in the game
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10:49<@peter1138>heh
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11:09<Mirrakor>Which type of rail do you recommend?
11:09<ln>Schwebebahn.
11:09<Mirrakor>the magnet one?
11:10<Eddi|zuHause3>don't listen to him, he learned a new word yesterday ;)
11:10<Mirrakor>lol
11:10<Mirrakor>Magnet-Schwebebahn :)
11:10<Eddi|zuHause3>that is not what he meant ;)
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, maglev looks ugly
11:11<Eddi|zuHause3>i use the DBSetXL, where you can get away with conventional and electrified rail most of the times
11:12<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: objection -- i travelled on the Schwebebahn back in 1992, and I have known the word since then.
11:12<Eddi|zuHause3>there is a grf that replaces the maglev graphics with transrapid tracks, but the elevation is a visual "hack"
11:13<@peter1138>visual pig
11:14<Eddi|zuHause3>let's call it "illusion"
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11:16<Mirrakor>hm.. I'd have to start a new game to use the DBSetXL, right?
11:18<@peter1138>yes
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11:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12661 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: ability to send a vehicle (using default orders) to the nearest depot.
11:59<KingJ>Are there any plans to add filtering to the server browser? E.g only show full servers or servers of the same version etc
11:59<@Rubidium>if plans is suggestions, then yes
12:00<@Rubidium>if plans is somebody actively writing them at the moment, then no
12:00<KingJ>Okay, thanks. Would be a nice feature to have though
12:02<@peter1138>go for it then :)
12:03<KingJ>My coding abilities are, uh, nonexistant :P
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause3>makes them easy to improve ;)
12:16<HMage>everyone must know how to code? :D
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12:29<@Belugas>HMage, no, but it would greatly help in order to get a feature done... UNless it is such a wonderfull idea that one is inspired by it and codes it day and night :)
12:29<@Belugas>in the end, it all comes down to interest...
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12:57<HMage>ямям. всем пакета.
12:58<hylje>thank goodness for utf-8
12:59<ln>что єта за пакета?
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13:06<@Belugas>c'est comique, ln.. j'allais demander exactement la meme chose...
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13:35*hylje starts up the interpeter
13:37<Sacro>que?
13:39<Born_Acorn>The Interpeter?
13:39<Born_Acorn>Is that like some sort of international Peter1138?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>might be the next opponent of The Doctor ;)
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: ¿Qué?
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13:45<Ammler>how does ottd measure the length of trains?
13:46<Ammler>asking because of the ETD from USSet
13:47<Eddi|zuHause3>what is an ETD?
13:47<@peter1138>it doesn't measure them
13:47<Ammler>endian train device
13:47<@peter1138>End of Train Device
13:47<Ammler>or so, yes
13:47<hylje>caboose!
13:47<Ammler>peter1138: it does
13:48<Ammler>at least in depot, but is it now also too long for stations?
13:48<@peter1138>well it's supplied with the lengths and they're added up, heh
13:49<Eddi|zuHause3>the depot counts the total length of the train
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause3>the station loading ignores the last wagon if it does not take cargo
13:50<@peter1138>no it doesn't
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm pretty sure a recent commit said sat
13:50<hylje>i thought there was a patch earlier which made it so
13:50<Eddi|zuHause3>*that
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13:51<@peter1138>i made a patch for it, months ago
13:51<@peter1138>but no commit
13:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i am very sure i read that in a commit message
13:53<ln>what's the probability of Bjarni tonight? i'd say it's well below 50%.
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14:01<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r12662 /trunk/src/airport.h: -Codechange: Comment-code style application
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14:05<Roujin>holy sh!t, there's a thunderstorm outside oO
14:06<Roujin>all day long it was really nice weather and now it's like the world is ending...
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>"nice weather"? in which world do you live in?
14:07-!-dR3x4cK [~Miranda@p5499F0C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>it is cold, it is cloudy, it is on the edge of raining...
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>not exactly my definition of "nice"
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14:11<Roujin>probably in a world with better weather than yours :P (at least before it went bad)
14:12<Digitalfox>Roujin in Portugal we had rain, storms and even tornados all this week
14:12<Digitalfox>I had a tornado 20KM from where I live
14:12<Digitalfox>between F1 and F2
14:13<Digitalfox>Reaaly close where my father is building a new house
14:13<Digitalfox>And in Portugal in this part of year it should be sun all day with temperatures between 20 - 30ºC and now it's 11ºC
14:15-!-Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
14:15<Digitalfox>http://diario.iol.pt/artmedia.html?id=938048&pagina_actual=1&tipo=1
14:15<Digitalfox>some pictures
14:16<Roujin>ooh... well i guess i shouldn't complain about a little thunderstorm then
14:16<Eddi|zuHause3>i remember when we went to portugal (algarve) around february, we were bathing in the sea and the locals couldn't understand why we would bath in such a cold (water temperature was something like 15°C)
14:16<Digitalfox>like this :(
14:16<Digitalfox>http://diario.iol.pt/artmedia.html?id=938048&div_id=0&tipo=1&mul_id=10018518&pagina_actual=2
14:17<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 well we have a pretty much normal temperature betwwen 25 and 35ºC all year so 15ºC is low for us :)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but it is totally acceptable for germans, where the sea temperature rarely even reaches that kind of values ;)
14:19<Digitalfox>Look at this http://diario.iol.pt/artmedia.html?id=938048&div_id=0&tipo=1&mul_id=10018521&pagina_actual=2 metal is all fuc* up
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>i witnessed a tornado from my window a few years ago
14:20<@peter1138>"whhops"
14:20<Digitalfox>I just hope we don't have a F4 or F5 or portugal will bow up.. We just don't are prepared for tornados.. Like USA where they almost know when they will happen and where :\
14:21<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 what scale was it?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>something very weak, don't remember
14:22<Eddi|zuHause3>http://saevert.de/040612schochwitz.htm
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>a few days later there was a tornado that destroyed half a village somewhere near here
14:24<Digitalfox>Our forecast weather guys say that Portugal will have more tornado's in the next years since our weather is all fuc* up.. We will became like a desert cold at night and hot in the day.. + Tornados ...
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14:28<yeti_>what am i doing wrong if the "transfer and leave empty" cimmand does not work? i'm trying to drop off oil at a station, but every now and then the delivering train will pick up oil even if it has orders to be left empty
14:29<@Rubidium>what version?
14:29<yeti_>0.6.0 stable release
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14:29<@Rubidium>then I've got no idea
14:30<@peter1138>could have just ended up there by accident on another order
14:30<Eddi|zuHause3>"12.06.2004 Seeburg Sachsen-Anhalt F0 (2x)"
14:31<Eddi|zuHause3>"23.06.2004 Micheln Sachsen-Anhalt (6 Verletzte) F3"
14:32<yeti_>http://yeti.yefx.org/Sladwood1980.sav - the trains dropping off oil at Fennford West occassionally do it - not everytime, but sometimes
14:35<yeti_>ah, seems i was missing an outbound track
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14:36<Wolf01>hello
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14:47<Patrick`>yeti_: yeah, if they cycle back through the station as a waypoint, they'll stop and load cargo
14:48<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.naturgewalten.de/841123zoellnitz.htm
14:49<hylje>whats the point
14:50<Eddi|zuHause3>it has rails and wagons
14:51<hylje>oh
14:58<Patrick`>wow, a page in a language I don't read, about derilict buildings
14:58<Patrick`>great!
15:00<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.wetterzentrale.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/wzarchive2003_2.pl?noframes%3bread=339356 <- result of an F4 tornado in germany
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15:01<hylje>ME CEDES-BENZ
15:01<Patrick`>wow, even the tornado is efficient in germany
15:02<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.saevert.de/bilder/tornados/19680710pforzheimkarte.jpg <- route of the tornado
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15:11<ln>http://ircpics.com/img.php?id=12796
15:11<Eddi|zuHause3>hehe ;)
15:11<hylje>instant godwin
15:12<Eddi|zuHause3>but afaik the assignment of the olympic games was long before the nazis took power
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15:14<Diadem>Hey guys
15:14<Diadem>How is the maximum number of passengers per month determined?
15:14<Diadem>from a town
15:14<Diadem>Is there a factor of reputation, or nearly trees?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>each house has a number of passengers
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>they get added up
15:14<Diadem>My maximum passengers per month dropped from 300 to 200 while the town grew...
15:15<Eddi|zuHause3>towns may replace buildings with "less efficient" ones
15:16<Diadem>Nah I don't think it changed *that* much. It's a drop from 300 to 200.. that's big
15:16<Diadem>How do you see the # of passengers per building, by the way?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>in the code
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>src/tables/*.h
15:17<Diadem>Is it related to the 4/8 passengers, 6/8 passengers etc that buildings have?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>not directly
15:18<Diadem>ok
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15:51<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 one of my friends recently was on Germany and he told me that tornado's in Germany where getting worse and worse every year.. True?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause3>not necessarily
15:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know real statistics
15:52<Digitalfox>But you have a lot don't you every year?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>i wouldn't call it "a lot"
15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>the statistics i have seen have something around 50 per year
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>most of them harmless
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>tornados existed since the beginning of time, i have not heard of a significant increase in either strength or number
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15:59<@peter1138>i dunno, telstar was quite a popular hit from the tornados in the 60s
16:00<jjr>Hi, what conditions affect train speed, apart from track shape?
16:01<KingJ>Wagon speed limits, Slopes
16:02<jjr>When I began to build longer trains, they ran only at 88 km/h, even if the engine max speed was greater (US ans Canadian tran set)
16:03<Eddi|zuHause3>max speed results from the equation "driving force == resisance force"
16:03<Eddi|zuHause3>jjr: that is most likely the wagon speed limit
16:04<jjr>thx, i thought the engines weren't powerful enough
16:05<Eddi|zuHause3>lack of power usually results in different max speeds with full and empty trains
16:05<+glx>max speed is not affected by power, but acceleration is
16:06<jjr>I'll check out
16:07<Eddi|zuHause3>glx: it is, but most of the times other limitations yield lower max speeds
16:07<jjr>is that 88 km/h speed usual for freight trains (specifically coal) ?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause3>@calc 88/1.6
16:07<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause3: 55
16:08<Eddi|zuHause3>jjr: yes, in the DBSet speed limit for freight trains is 80km/h [120 km/h for the later wagons]
16:09<Eddi|zuHause3>jjr: it will tell you the speedlimit of the wagon when you click on the wagon in the depot
16:10<+glx>in ukrs coal wagon are slower
16:10<jjr>Eddi : OK thx
16:10<KingJ>I personally just disable wagon speed limits. Screws up my network
16:11<jjr>so basically buying faster engines is waste of money...
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause3>exactly, buy more powerful engines instead
16:13<+glx>fast engines are usually designed for passenger trains
16:13<@peter1138>the speed limit of wagons is show in the purchase list
16:13<@Belugas>+n
16:13<@Belugas>;)
16:14<KingJ>Are there any good guides for building 2-rail (as in two tracks for each direction) networks which trains will switch between the two to avoid slow trains?
16:14<jjr>peter1138 i know this... but didn't knew that wagons also have max speed
16:14<+glx>KingJ: needs PBS
16:15<Eddi|zuHause3>PS: driving force is P/v, where P is the power and v is the current speed, and wind resistance is rho/2*c*A*v^2 where rho is the air density, c is a viscosity constant, A is the front area
16:15<Eddi|zuHause3>KingJ: realistically, slow trains switch lines, because fast trains would have to slow down to switch lines
16:16<KingJ>Yeah
16:16<KingJ>Might just have to isolate my freight and passenger lines then
16:17<Eddi|zuHause3>and to really solve fast/slow issues, you'd have to use proper scheduling
16:17<KingJ>The timetabling interface?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm afraid that one is not powerful enough yet
16:18<Eddi|zuHause3>or needs really extreme micromanagement to work properly
16:19<KingJ>Currently, I try to fit everything on one network, freight, passengers the lot. Which means you will always get a slow freight train jam everything up
16:19<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, that's why you would schedule the freight trains to leave a big gap before an express passenger train would be leaving the station
16:20<Eddi|zuHause3>realistically, freight trains are standing most of the time
16:20<KingJ>Yeah :/
16:21<KingJ>Or have some sort of pause segment, where the train will stop for say 10 or so days to let the others go
16:21<Eddi|zuHause3>which is one of the reasons why a lot of freight movement turned to roads
16:21<KingJ>Actually, I can do that now...
16:21<jjr>thx for advice for now, I just need to think few things out now
16:22<KingJ>Just been on the openttd coop server though, and their network, wow :P
16:22<Eddi|zuHause3>i find their networks ugly
16:22<Eddi|zuHause3>impressive, maybe, but definitely ugly
16:22<KingJ>Ugly, but the amount of traffic they carry...
16:23<KingJ>Real world networks ofen are not pretty either
16:23<jjr>yes, those are megalomaniacal...
16:23<jjr>... the coop ones
16:24<@Belugas>proof that TTD is not a representation/simulation of real world/life!
16:24*Belugas hides
16:25<KingJ>"TTD: The Sims"? :P
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16:27<@Belugas>NEVAR!
16:31<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: btw, did you know that the olympic torch run was invented for the olymic games 1936 in berlin?
16:32-!-divo [~asd@x1-6-00-18-39-d3-e9-f6.k899.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:33<KingJ>and went from Greece to Germany only as opposed to all over the world :)
16:33<ln>i didn't, though someone mentioned that just a moment ago #elsewhere.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>KingJ: and was already accompanied by protesters along the whole path ;)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>KingJ: the "all over the world" thing was only a very recent development, afaik
16:36<KingJ>Yeah, and it's mostly airmiles as opposed to actually walking/running it
16:38<ln>i suppose 1936 was also the last olympics where the reich participated in?
16:38<KingJ>Only time olympics didn't occour was during the world wars AFAIK
16:38<Eddi|zuHause3>there were no olympic games 1940 and 1944
16:39<ln>indeed
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>and i'm not sure about 1948
16:39<ln>wasn't that london?
16:39<KingJ>Yeah
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know
16:39<ln>or how should i know, i don't care about sports.
16:39<KingJ>Google knew :P
16:40<ln>1952 helsinki
16:40<Eddi|zuHause3>london must still have been heavily damaged from the war back then
16:40<KingJ>Germany and Japan where banned from 1948 olympics heh
16:40<Eddi|zuHause3>technically, there was not really a german state at that time
16:41<KingJ>Well, what resembled Germany and Japan anyway
16:43<ln>and innsbruck had olympics twice in the 1970s.
16:45-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41673.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, london was originally assigned for the olympic games 1944, and tokio 1940
16:50<ln>and helsinki probably 1948
16:51<ln>did tokio get to have its games at all?
16:51<@Bjarni>I think so
16:51<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, in the 60s or so
16:51<Eddi|zuHause3>1964
16:52<@Bjarni>I was thinking of 64 too
16:52<Eddi|zuHause3>they gave up the 1940 games because of the war with china, before the 2nd world war started
16:52<@Bjarni>but I'm not sure
16:52-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@users113.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd
16:52<Eddi|zuHause3>1940 games then went to helsinki
16:52-!-Mirrakor [~linuser@p57B2E427.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:53<@Bjarni>btw it's spelled Tokyo
16:53<Eddi|zuHause3>not in german
16:53<ln>seems like the windmills in denmark are spinning tonight.
16:54<@Bjarni>surprisingly they are only producing 757 MW right now
16:54<@Bjarni>I would expect more
16:54<@Bjarni>o_O
16:54<@Bjarni>it says 3 m/s
16:54<@Bjarni>now there is for sure a huge difference in wind speed in the country
16:55<@Bjarni>whatever
16:55<@Bjarni>ahh now I know why
16:55<@Bjarni>the wind is from an unusual direction
16:56<ln>let's re-paste for Bjarni!: 22:10 < ln> http://ircpics.com/img.php?id=12796
16:56<@Bjarni>meaning that the windmills are not in the wind right now
16:56<@Bjarni>as the land brakes the wind before it arrives
16:56<@Bjarni>how about 1936? :)
16:57<@Bjarni>I think it was in Munich
16:57<@Bjarni>maybe I should look this up
16:57<Eddi|zuHause3>no, 1972 was munich
16:57<Eddi|zuHause3>1936 was berlin
16:58<@Bjarni>right
16:58<Eddi|zuHause3>munich was with the hostage thing
16:59<@Bjarni>I know
17:00<@Bjarni>according to wikipedia the 1940 winter games were in Garmisch-Partenkirchen
17:00<@Bjarni>where is the picture from?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause3>no, that was 1936
17:01<@Bjarni>yes but it says 1940 too
17:01<Eddi|zuHause3>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympische_Winterspiele_1936
17:01<@Bjarni>) Sapporo→
17:01<@Bjarni>St Moritz→
17:01<@Bjarni>Garmisch-Partenkirchen
17:02<@Bjarni>looks like the wars made it tricky to find anywhere to host the games
17:02<Eddi|zuHause3>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympische_Winterspiele_1940
17:03-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03<@Bjarni>heh
17:03-!-De_Ghosty [~s@CPE0050ba8caf2c-CM0011aec4b06a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
17:03<@Bjarni>maybe we should correct the English page telling that it was cancelled :)
17:04<@Bjarni>lol
17:04<@Bjarni>if you click on some small link you are taken to a page telling that it was cancelled
17:04<@Bjarni>but it looks like they held it when you look at the main overview
17:04<@Bjarni>now that's clever design :P
17:05<Eddi|zuHause3>which page are you viewing?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_Winter_Olympics definitely says they were cancelled
17:06<@Bjarni>that's where the link goes
17:07<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_games <-- this is the overview
17:08<Eddi|zuHause3>see the little (4) next to the numbers?
17:09<@Bjarni>yes
17:09<Eddi|zuHause3>it leads to a footnote saying "cancelled because of WWII"
17:10<ln>i noticed Denmark has never held the olympics.
17:10<@Bjarni>yeah but the arrows gives a different impression and the note is not on the screen at the same time as the 1940 line (unless you have a huge monitor)
17:11<Eddi|zuHause3>but they are in italics
17:11-!-SpComb^ is now known as SpComb
17:11<@Bjarni>ln: some bonehead politicians wants to make it their work to get the games to Denmark in 2016
17:11<@Bjarni>which I consider to be a big mistake
17:12<ln>Winter or summer games?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause3>they tried to get 2012 games to Leipzig, but that failed
17:12*SpComb organizes the 2016 Olympic games in Bjarni's backyard
17:12<@Bjarni>I don't think it's big enough
17:12<@Bjarni>sorry
17:12<SpComb>you'd be surprised
17:13<@Bjarni>the problem is that the capacity for everything (hotels, public transportation, arenas...) is of a size so there will be no room for the local population
17:14<@Bjarni>and that's with the really expensive expansion plan (expansion for the olympics only)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause3>that was one of the main concerns against leipzig, too
17:14<@Bjarni>and then we will be stuck with expensive and totally oversized sports buildings afterwards
17:14<SpComb>in china they'll just ship some city's population out to the countryside for a month and be done with it
17:15<@Bjarni>here we would have to move 20% of the country's population
17:15<@Bjarni>I don't think that will happen
17:15<@Bjarni>besides where should they go?
17:16<@Bjarni><ln> Winter or summer games? <-- we don't get snow every year so take a guess ;)
17:16<@Bjarni>besides even with snow we lack the hills needed for the winter games
17:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12663 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp timetable_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: move the definition from 'order_d' to a more appropriate place and do not misuse it for the time table GUI.
17:19<ln>so does finland, but still some bonehead has suggested applying for winter games to be held in Lahti.
17:20<@Bjarni>:)
17:21<@Bjarni>why not host the winter games in Alaska?
17:21<@Bjarni>I think they got enough snow
17:21<ln>and hint: Lahti is quite much in the south, no guarantee of sufficient snow.
17:29<Diadem>what do you need snow for anyway?
17:29<Diadem>Only interesting sport during winter games is skating :)
17:34<ln>not even that
17:34<Eddi|zuHause3>"Man konnte die italienische Nationalhymne nicht finden und spielte stattdessen das Lied ’O sole mio." <- haha ;)
17:37<@Bjarni>lol
17:37<@Bjarni>where and when did that happen? :)
17:37<Eddi|zuHause3>if you ever trust belgian orchestras [Antwerpen 1920]
17:38<KingJ>One can the Italian National Amthem not find and play <cant translate rest> ?
17:38<@Bjarni>to be honest I never considered the idea of trusting or distrusting Belgian orchestras
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>"the rest" is the name of the song
17:38<Eddi|zuHause3>o sole mio, very famous italian song
17:39<@Bjarni>KingJ: "O sole mio" is the song that you most likely heard or read about
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>it is sung by pretty much every gondola driver in venice
17:39<Eddi|zuHause3>at least in the cliche ;)
17:39<@Bjarni>like the "crew" in Gondolas in Venice. They tend to sing it all the time (at least in cartoons)
17:40<@Bjarni>...
17:40<KingJ>I sort of know it, but not. Just the cartoon version :)
17:40<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: I said the same thing as you but I took it to the level of the reader to ensure understanding of the concept ;)
17:41<@Bjarni>at least they did play something Italian
17:42<@Bjarni>considering when it happened I'm not surprised that it could happen
17:43<@Bjarni>and it's a bit funny
17:43<@Bjarni>if it happened today it would be lack of leadership and an insult (like saying "we didn't think you could win anything so we didn't bother")
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>something similar happened during the opening of the Nordsee-Ostsee-Kanal, when the ship from turkey sailed by, they did not know the turkish national anthem, so they played a song that had "something to do with turkey"
17:43<@Bjarni>which one?
17:44<@Bjarni>Nordsee-Ostsee-Kanal <-- you mean the one near Kiel?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause3>it is said that this was the origin of the phrase "etwas türken" [meaning to fake something]
17:44<@Bjarni>:D
17:45<@Bjarni>and it can be right
17:45<Eddi|zuHause3>if by "near" you mean "in the northern part of germany", then yes ;)
17:45<@Bjarni>I think it's the one we call "Kieler-kanalen" (without the -)
17:46<@Bjarni>and it was originally built by the Danish king and then Prussia stole it in 1864
17:46<@Bjarni>we got some of the land back in 1920 but not everything
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>"Der Nord-Ostsee-Kanal (NOK, engl. Kiel Canal)"
17:47<@Bjarni>partly because some Danish politician didn't want it back so he helped Germany setting up the election zones in favour of Germany (don't ask me why he didn't want this land)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>"[...] wurde 1895 als Kaiser-Wilhelm-Kanal eröffnet und trug diesen Namen bis 1948."
17:48<@Bjarni>doesn't look like we are talking about the same thing
17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>"Die Endpunkte befinden sich in Brunsbüttel an der Elbe und in Kiel"
17:49<Eddi|zuHause3>"Der direkte Vorläufer des Nord-Ostsee-Kanals war der Eiderkanal, den der dänische König Christian VII. von 1777 bis 1784 errichten ließ."
17:51*Tefad looks at topic
17:51*Tefad shrugs
17:51<Eddi|zuHause3>just don't tell ln ;)
17:52<ln>it's all ok when it's between quotes.
17:53<Diadem>ln is an interesting nickname. Where did you get it from?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>it's derived from ln- ;)
17:54-!-thgergo [~Administr@dsl51B7883F.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:54<@Bjarni>"Kanalen er verdens mest benyttede kunstige kanal." (the canal is the most used artificial canal in the world) <--- do you trust that one?
17:54<@Bjarni>how about artificial canals like Panama and Suez?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause3>depends on what you count
17:54<@Bjarni>swimming humans
17:54<Eddi|zuHause3>number of ships... panama and suez probably do not have many small ships
17:55<Eddi|zuHause3>but rather few huge ones
17:55<@Bjarni>Panama has a surprisingly high number of small ships
17:56<@Bjarni>Excluding sporting boats and other small boats, an average of 118 ships per day used the canal in 2007 <-- o_O
17:57<@Bjarni>ok that's pretty high
18:01<Eddi|zuHause3>what i always find interesting is that i can understand a lot of dutch, but almost no danish when i read it [i have learned neither language]
18:01<Diadem>Interesting, I can almost read Danish, while never having learned it
18:01<yeti_>Eddi|zuHause3: try understanding dutch when someone speaks it though... nearly impossible
18:02<@Bjarni>I can read both those languages
18:02<Diadem>(And I can read German, but I learned that)
18:02*Diadem dutch
18:02<@Bjarni>but I only received education in one of them (and I was able to handle a conversation even before getting the education)
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>yeti_: but you can say the same about austrians and bavarians ;)
18:03<@Bjarni><yeti_> Eddi|zuHause3: try understanding dutch when someone speaks it though... nearly impossible <-- yeah.... it's like they speak and write two different languages
18:03<yeti_>Eddi|zuHause3: i'm biased on that one though, my dad is swiss and i have austrian friends...
18:05<Eddi|zuHause3>luxemburgian is funny, you understand three sentences, and then it's totally ununderstandable for another two sentences
18:06<yeti_>Eddi|zuHause3: they have their own language?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
18:06<yeti_>i thought they spoke flemish and/or french?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause3>but they have french as office-language, and pretty much all of them speak 3 languages (french, german and luxemburgian)
18:07<yeti_>ahh interesting, didn't know that
18:07<@Bjarni>it's not like languages are that tricky
18:07<Sacro>Anyone wanna talk on skype?
18:07<Sacro>Bjarni: get skype!
18:07<@Bjarni>not with you
18:07-!-lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
18:07<Sacro>ohnoes
18:07<lolman>ohyeses
18:07<@Bjarni>I have skype
18:07<Sacro>Bjarni: joooooooooooin us
18:08<@Bjarni>if the account is still valid
18:08<@Bjarni>I once used it to call Australia
18:08<Eddi|zuHause3>"Die luxemburgische Sprache oder kurz Luxemburgisch (Eigenbezeichnung Lëtzebuergesch) ist eine westgermanische Sprachvarietät, die zum moselfränkischen Dialektkontinuum gehört. Luxemburgisch ist linguistisch daher ein hochdeutscher Dialekt"
18:08<@Bjarni>cheaper than a normal phone
18:08-!-Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
18:08<Sacro>Bjarni: joooooooooooooooooin us
18:08<@Bjarni>no
18:09<@Bjarni>if I do then you will start a porn movie or something
18:09<@Bjarni>to make funny noises in my speakers
18:09<Tefad>*uNF* *uNF*
18:10<@Bjarni>for all we know Sacro could be a collector of videos of people in pain
18:10<@Bjarni>and I don't want to listen to that either
18:11<@Bjarni>look
18:11<@Bjarni>Sacro aren't going to deny
18:12<Sacro>Bjarni: we're not gonna do that
18:12<@Bjarni>maybe I should just kick him for his weird ideas
18:12<@Bjarni>but he might enjoy that so I will not do it
18:12<@Bjarni>Sacro: who are "we"?
18:12<@Bjarni>you and you and you?
18:12<Sacro>Bjarni: me, lolman and welshdragon
18:13<@Bjarni>and why should I talk to you guys?
18:14<@Bjarni>I thought so
18:15<Sacro>because we love you
18:16<@Bjarni>that's a reason for you to want to talk to me
18:16<@Bjarni>not a reason for me to talk to you
18:16<@Bjarni>so I will repeat my question
18:16<@Bjarni>and why should I talk to you guys?
18:17<Sacro>pfft
18:17<Sacro>cos we wanna talk to some foreigners
18:18<@Bjarni>you are still seeing it from your point of view
18:18<@Bjarni>why would I talk to you? :)
18:18<Sacro>because you want to humour me
18:18<@Bjarni>no I don't
18:19<@Bjarni>you are from Hull after all
18:19<@Bjarni>humouring you is done horizontally
18:21<@Bjarni>again he ain't denying
18:24<Sacro>you can do me horizontally if you want
18:24-!-bowman^2 is now known as bowman
18:24<Sacro>i won't complain
18:24<@Bjarni>no way
18:25<@Bjarni>rumours has it that you have an STD
18:25<@Bjarni>that get people committed
18:27-!-NukeBuster|laptop [~opera@a62-251-21-79.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
18:29<ln>how to count timezone offset with DST using C?
18:30<@Bjarni>look for some library
18:30<Wolf01>'night
18:30-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@87.4.236.30] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:31<@Bjarni>or you will have to work for a while to get it right if it has to work everywhere
18:31-!-Mirrakor [~linuser@p57B2E427.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:31<ln>yes, it's not as trivial as one would think.
18:32-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1BB0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:37<Sacro>Bjarni: i don't have any stds
18:37<Sacro>i've only got 2 people commited
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18:41<@Bjarni>2?
18:41<@Bjarni>who were the other one?
18:42<Sacro>my next door neighbour
18:42<@Bjarni>...
18:42<@Bjarni>how did that happen?
18:42<@Bjarni>then again it's Hull after all
18:44<Sacro>heeh
18:44<Sacro>he was old
18:44<Sacro>and senile
18:44<Sacro>i sent him to a better place
18:45<@Bjarni>the cemetery?
18:48<Sacro>nah
18:53<ln>would this fail? http://uselesscode.net/patch/timezone-offset-dst.diff
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18:55<Eddi|zuHause3>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Rendsburg-map.png <- you don't see that kind of loop construction very often in flat areas ;)
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19:08<Ammller>Eddi|zuHause3: what it that good for?
19:08<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammller: crossing a canal at large height
19:08<yeti_>Ammller: the bridge is too high for the train to descend to the station directly
19:08<Eddi|zuHause3>http://www.move-team-ev.de/artikel/rendsburg.html
19:10<Ammller>nice
19:11<Eddi|zuHause3>funny is also the ferry that does not touch water ;)
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 12 00:00:40 2008