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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-16

---Logopened Wed Apr 16 00:00:48 2008
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00:39<De_Ghosty>when i replace my duo with a quad
00:39<De_Ghosty>do i need to reinstall window?
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01:40<Gekz>bah, cant anyone help me lol
01:43<@Rubidium>does not work is quite ambiguous
01:44<@Rubidium>same as:
01:44<@Rubidium>crystal ball
01:44<@Rubidium>does not work
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01:59<Gekz>Rubidium: the question precedes the failing
01:59<Gekz>have a look
02:03<De_Ghosty>what do you want?
02:03<@peter1138>De_Ghosty: no, btw
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02:04<De_Ghosty>oh ok thx
02:04<De_Ghosty>cuz i was gonna give my sister the core 2 and me get new shiny quad :D
02:04<De_Ghosty>any rumor of a glimps of a price cut :D
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02:51*Sionide prods GoneWacko
02:53<extspotter>Can you help me with OTTD?
02:54<extspotter>When I try to add GRFs into the game, it freezes
02:54<Sionide>which grfs?
02:54<GoneWacko>Why hello there mister Simon
02:54<Sionide>what version of ottd?
02:54<extspotter>all fo the ones I downloaded, lol
02:55<extspotter>and UKRS extention
02:55<extspotter>PB viaduct
02:55<extspotter>generic trams
02:55<Sionide>extspotter, you might have downloaded a dodgy one or the download didn't work properly OR you're trying to add a GRF which conflicts with another...?
02:55<extspotter>uk trams
02:55<Sionide>GoneWacko, sup foo!
02:55<extspotter>hi wacko
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02:55<Sionide>extspotter, for example, i dunno if you can have uk trams AND generic trams.. there's only so much room in the GRF space, so to speak
02:56<Sionide>extspotter, best thing to do is to download the openttdcoop grfpack
02:56<Sionide>cos that's a whole group of GRFs including trams and stuff which is known to work
02:56<extspotter>do you have a link or is it just on grfcrawler or summat
02:56<Sionide>try that
02:56<GoneWacko>Oh not too much. I'm doing my internship in Finland and that's about it.
02:56<GoneWacko>How about your person?
02:56<extspotter>He is happy youre around :D
02:57<extspotter>In more ways than one :p
02:57<Sionide>extspotter, these GRFs are all in
02:57<Sionide>extspotter, this file->
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02:59<Sionide>remember to get rid of all the others first
02:59<Sionide>put them somewhere else
02:59<extspotter>what is in that file?
02:59<Sionide>GoneWacko, all is well.. just finishing my 3rd and final year project..
02:59<extspotter>from coop?
03:00<Sionide>extspotter, the zip file has all the GRFs in the table in the first link..
03:00<Sionide>a whole bunch
03:00<Sionide>all good ones
03:00<Sionide>known to work and not to conflict
03:00<extspotter>and just put the ones not in use into a different folder
03:00<Sionide>yeah out the way
03:01<GoneWacko>Awesome. I'm trying to get that same situation going for myself by telling some official-looking people in my school that one of the teachers made a boo-boo when assessing me (which is actually the case).
03:01<GoneWacko>Don't think it'll work though :p
03:01<extspotter>error reading the file
03:06<Eddi|zuHause2>"not to conflict" <- that comment is very misleading
03:06<Eddi|zuHause2>or just plainly wrong...
03:07<Sionide>is there stuff that conflicts in the coop package?
03:11<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, like there are multiple trainsets
03:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you can only ever use one trainset at each time
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03:14<extspotter>its ok
03:14<extspotter>I have delted all the others and redownloaded the UK set
03:14<extspotter>I am going to get the UK trams
03:17<extspotter>I dont think the trams and trains go together
03:18<extspotter>does that mean you can onle have 1 tranport set?
03:18<Eddi|zuHause2>one set of each kind
03:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. 1 trainset, 1 truckset, 1 tramset
03:19<extspotter>thats wierd
03:20<extspotter>because the trains and trams on mine were clashing
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03:22<extspotter>what is the best plane pack?
03:24<extspotter>AV8 or Planeset
03:27*Celestar sighs
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03:28<Celestar>Man at cafeteria wanting a sandwich. 1) Walks up to fridge, 2) opens it, 3) pulls out sandwich, 4) closes fridge. Elapsed time: 12 secnds
03:30<Celestar>Woman at cafeteria wanting a sandwich. 1) Walks up to fridge, 2) locates herself stragetically as to block the entire line, 3) opens fridge, 4) pulls out sandwich, 5) identifies sandwich, 6) gives a rating to sandwich, 7) repeats steps 4) to 6) for every sandwich in damn fridge, 8) gets sandwich with highest rating from now warm fridge, 9) closes fridge. Elapsed time: 4 minutes :<
03:31<Tefad>also bagging lunch prevents cafeteria woes
03:32<extspotter>You arent bitter...
03:32<Celestar>I just wanted a damn coke ;)
03:32<Celestar>extspotter: nah, I'm just having a good time :P
03:32<Tefad>: D
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05:29*Celestar wonders why "svn up" on the main repo takes 3 minutes on his box to complete :S
05:29<Celestar>stupid file server being slow again
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05:58<Roest>how does this registering nicks work again, havent used irc in ages
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06:01<Celestar>msg nickserv register
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06:27<Gekz>lol, in 1936 I have CHF 9,135,400
06:29<extspotter>I accidentally blew up my main station in OTTD online and can't build a new one (oops!)
06:29<Roest>guess you're screwed
06:31<extspotter>I quit it
06:32<extspotter>will probably rejoin it because I was doing good
06:32<extspotter>I had a load of EMUs and DMUs
06:34<Roest>remains the question why you cant rebuild it
06:34<extspotter>because the town didnt like me
06:34<extspotter>It was poor, so not good enough to build near it
06:34<extspotter>and I was debted to the hilt and hadn't got much money anyway
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06:52<Kloopy>I think the "build over an old station before it expires to ensure vehicles using it go back to the newly built station" algorthim needs some work.
06:53<Kloopy>I destroyed a City airport which was mid-city to build an International airport over it, but because the bigger airport didn't get build over the center tile (I presume that's what tracks it) it didn't take the old airports name and ID.
06:53<Kloopy>Would it be much work to look at the code and make a patch that says if the new station overlaps the old one in any tile, it picks up the old stations ID?
06:55<Yexo>Kloopy: it has to do with the distance between the labels IIRC
06:55<Yexo>easy to patch I think
06:56<Kloopy>Ah, ok. So just extend that "max distance to replace station" value.
06:56<Kloopy>It was slightly frustrating as I had something like 24 planes using the old airport.
06:56<Kloopy>On many routes, so it wasn't a quick update shared orders.
06:58<Ammller>Kloopy: good workaround is to place a railstation tile adjacent to the airport
06:59<Ammller>I woud never trust that remember former station
06:59<Kloopy>But to be honest, it should be seamless, the game just needs a little bit of tweaking so that my obvious airport replacement works without a workaround.
07:00<Kloopy>So that's an issue then isn't it... if the "remember former station" feature doesn't have players trust, it needs a touch of attention.
07:00<Ammller>it works fine if you combine the airport with rail or roadstations
07:01<Yexo>I also never use it, not because I don't trust it, but because there are too many things that can go wrong
07:01<Kloopy>That's all well and good but there -are- situations where it's not perfect.
07:01<Ammller>tell me?
07:01<Yexo>Imagine being distracted and thereby being too late to get the old stationid
07:02<Ammller>I meant Kloopy :-)I
07:02<Yexo>Kloopy: in town, just use an onroad roadstop, outsite of town, you have plenty of room
07:02<Yexo>I know, I was just typing slow
07:06<Kloopy>Ammller: as I said above, my airport replacement wasn't close enough to the old one to keep the stationid despite overlapping the old station tiles.
07:06<Kloopy>But slowness can be sorted, too.. keep the stationid for much longer that it currently is and open a window asking if you want to replace the station when you next build one close to it.
07:06<Kloopy>If you say "no" the stationid is removed straight away.
07:08<Kloopy>'Do you want to: Replace the old station "Funtingwood Airport" / Create a new station "Funtingwood Central"'
07:08<Kloopy>Anyhow, I'm going down to the beach to eat my lunch. *waves*
07:10<Roest>now i hate you
07:11<Yexo>Kloopy: The maximum distance is set in station_cmd.cpp, line 353
07:11<Yexo>currently the old station sign/id is only taken if it is less then 8 tiles away, diagonal tiles counting for 2
07:12<Yexo>so 4 tiles diagonally is too far way
07:12<Kloopy>It goes by center tile/label?
07:12<Yexo>no, by tile of station sign
07:12<Kloopy>Ok... which is no wonder, it's about 8 tiles to the middle of the Intercontinental airport! :P
07:13<Yexo>the distance between the old and new station label tile
07:13<Yexo>not the middle, but the tile the label is above
07:13<Yexo>the "upper" tile
07:14<Kloopy>Right. I'll load up my save game and have a look at the labels after lunch.
07:14<Kloopy>Thanks :)
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07:15<Yexo>changing DistanceManhattan to DistanceSquare and threshold to 64 problebly does a better job
07:27<Gekz>I want the passenger exchange patch updated to the current trunk :/
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07:27<Ammller>Gekz: whats that?
07:28<Ammller>Roest: I meant the assert on RV orders
07:29<Roest>oh, thought you were talking about my patch
07:29<Roest>was a bit confusing there
07:30<ln>a day-time Bjarni!
07:30<Gekz>Ammller: the passengers know what station they want to get off at
07:30<Ammller>Roest: the current CIV is quite useless
07:30<Gekz>Ammller: and they will swap trains to do it
07:31<dih>hello Bjarni :-)
07:31<Roest>yea i know, i tried it, got the assert and quit it
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07:31<Ammller>then say "Pass dest" instead of exchange ;-)
07:32<Roest>i guess i keep my own patch pack maintained, c&p is a must for me now
07:32<Roest>too bad frostregen doesnt want it to go in trunk
07:34<Ammller>using of c&p is more working ttd then playing
07:34<Roest>how so?
07:34<Ammller>isn't the idea of ttd to build tracks?
07:35<Roest>for me it's to build big networks, if i can get rid of repetive tasks it helps that
07:35<Ammller>peter1138: how do you call them? (Schienen)
07:36<@peter1138>there's more to ttd than building tracks ;p
07:36<Ammller>ah, ok :-)
07:36<Ammller>well, c&p does more too
07:36<Roest>besides i never remember the layouts of station exits and junctions
07:37<Ammller>because you use c&p :P
07:37<Ammller>I am lucky, I do not either, so I can try something new... everytime :-)
07:38<Roest>paxdest would be nice to have, it really added some depth but as long as it doesnt work in multiplayer its no option
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07:40<@peter1138>someone will do it right eventually
07:41<Forked>we should put an an endless amount of coding monkeys on it.. and hope they dont code shakespear (mistypes bound to be included here)
07:42<Ammller>peter1138: Its quite hard to patch svn with your engine patch
07:42<Ammller>copy of engine_type.h
07:42<@peter1138>do the svn cp first
07:43<planetmaker>noob question: what's the C&P patch about?
07:43<Ammller>whats the idea behind that?
07:43<@peter1138>planetmaker: it's about copying and pasting map areas
07:43<@peter1138>Ammller: hmm?
07:43<planetmaker>aye, thx.
07:44<Ammller>why don't you not just patch engine_type.h?
07:45<Ammller>planetmaker: the most famous and oldest "not going to trunk" patch :-)
07:47<planetmaker>oh, is it that kind? :) Would be handy at times... though I'm not sure how much I'd use it.
07:47<Roest>it's really hard to see why
07:47<@peter1138>Ammller: because pools go in _base
07:49<Ammller>planetmaker: read the blue text in the 1. post :-)
07:50<planetmaker>:D. Spoiling building style?
07:51<planetmaker>Certainly it might easily violate the "low terraform" rules...
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07:53<planetmaker>what's the actual problem with this patch, btw? Not network compatible? Or...?
07:54<@Rubidium>planetmaker: talking about copy/paste?
07:54<Roest>it certainly is network compatible, i use it on my own server
07:54<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes.
07:54<Gekz>its sad when you use TTD to test if someone is stupid or not
07:55<@Rubidium>1) contains bugs, 2) did not look maintainable when I last looked at it
07:55<planetmaker>^^ fair enough for a non inclusion, I guess :)
07:55<Ammller>the problem of the patch is, that it is client side only
07:56<Roest>so the functionality wouldn't keep it from going into trunk?
07:56<planetmaker>Why is that a problem?
07:56<Ammller>so you can patch your client with it and join a server without that patch
07:56<Ammller>after a talk with him about that, he added the blue text to his post
07:57<Roest>i don't see that as a problem, but then i never play ottd competitive
07:57<Gekz>oh noes ottd hax
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08:06<nicfer>too much people say 'go play simcity if you want to control a city' and they didn't take care that simcity is propietary
08:06<nicfer>and simcity is most boring that TT
08:06<Gekz>go hug it
08:06<nicfer>too hard
08:06<Gekz>stop complaining.
08:07<@Bjarni><ln> a day-time Bjarni! <-- I'm usually busy all day and that goes for right now as well
08:08<nicfer>what other bad thing about simcity 3000 is that citizens complain about everything
08:09<nicfer>the citizens want you to enable a law and after others tell you to remove it
08:10<Gekz>SimCity 3000 was crap.
08:10<nicfer>and simcity isn't multiplayer
08:11<Gekz>yes it is
08:11<Gekz>Simcity 2000 Network Edition
08:11<nicfer>I don't know it
08:11<Gekz>now you do
08:12<nicfer>how is the multiplayer gameplay?
08:12<nicfer>multiple players work on the same city?
08:13<Gekz>I cant remember
08:13<nicfer>each player controls it's own city in a neightbour (don't know exact world)?
08:13<Gekz>it was many years ago lol
08:13<Gekz>no it was the same map
08:13<Gekz>you had to purchase land to build on
08:13<@Bjarni>network sim city?
08:14<@Bjarni>can you export garbage to each other?
08:14<@Bjarni>and send all the garbage from a lot of towns to the same one
08:14<Gekz>no idea
08:14<@Bjarni>would be interesting
08:14<@Bjarni>sending all the garbage to the same location and producing all the power there as well
08:14<Roest>what's it about your interest in garbage
08:14<@Bjarni>with no people to complain
08:15<@Bjarni>Roest: I don't want it here... that's basically it :P
08:15<Roest>you're from naples by chance?
08:16<@Bjarni>but they don't want garbage either
08:16<@Bjarni>we should just stop producing garbage (or at least limit the amount of garbage)
08:16<Gekz>Bjarni: fix my patches!
08:17<@Bjarni>think about when you buy something... think about how much garbage the factories put around the actual thing when they ship it
08:17<Roest>fixing patches sucks
08:17<@Bjarni>when I purchased an USB hub then the box was like 10 times the size of the hub
08:17<@Bjarni>and it contained mainly air
08:18<Roest>lol should've seen the box my 8800gtx came in
08:18<Roest>that thing was a friggin suitcase
08:19<@Bjarni>Steve Jobs said at one time that they had engineers working on the packing for the iPods for environmental reasons. They cut the size in half while still containing the same stuff
08:19<@Bjarni>this means less fuel is used to transport them to the shops as they can have more in each vehicle
08:19<Roest>so why is it more fun to fiddle with the ottd code instead on working on the program for my thesis
08:19<@Bjarni>personally I think it's a nice way of saying "we figured out how to reduced shipping costs"
08:20<@Bjarni><Roest> so why is it more fun to fiddle with the ottd code instead on working on the program for my thesis <-- for the same reason as it's more fun to write this than to program the stuff that is due for Monday :P
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08:22<Roest>guess i really need to work now
08:22<@Bjarni>then I will not ask you about your thesis ;)
08:23<@Bjarni><Gekz> Bjarni: fix my patches! <-- err... patches?
08:23<Gekz>Bjarni: the patches I want to compile with trunk :P
08:23<Roest>lol it's still in the beginning
08:23<@Bjarni>and it will stay there if you stay in here
08:25<Roest>right now i have to write a viewer for MRI data, sounds simple but is so totally boring to setup all the widgets and stuff
08:26<@Bjarni>reminds me of when I should code my first GUI in C++ (which happened to use SDL)
08:26<teeg>Bjarni: Just to be sure I'm not stepping on any toes, the reason I picked that code as an example was that it was just the first quick "good" example I could find, and I'm well aware that this was written back in the C days. I wasn't quite aware of how long ago the migration to C++ was, but that's not a big issue.
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08:26<Denyerec>Hey chaps!
08:27<Denyerec>Got me a problem with train orders.... :)
08:27<Roest>those bastards trains wont follow your orders?
08:27<@Bjarni>we were a group of two people and the other one coded the GUI while I coded the FPGA and mcu. The hardware told the right stuff at the right time but we ended up not showing everything the hardware told about when we reached the deadline
08:27<Denyerec>Got a station by a Coal mine and an Oil Refinery, linked on a loop to an Oilfield and a Powerstation.
08:27<teeg>Denyerec: shoot one conductor and keep the other's family hostage. that'll get them to follow orders!
08:27<Denyerec>I had one train, with 4 coal cars and 4 oil cars. I wanted a coal dropoff and an oil pickup, but the transfer order kept picking up the dropped off coal!
08:28<Denyerec>Damn... Don't think I've found the button for that :S
08:28<@Bjarni>teeg = tgr ?
08:28<Denyerec>(Open TTD latest stable build)
08:28<teeg>Bjarni: yeah. tgr is apparently reserved on this network already
08:29<@Bjarni>oh I heard that one before :/
08:29<planetmaker> Denyerec: use a normal order without load, unload or anything...
08:29<Denyerec>just a go-to ?
08:29<Roest>denyerec: best way is to make a post and attach the savegame or at least screenshots
08:29<planetmaker>Denyerec: yes.
08:29<planetmaker>It won't use full load then, but it will deliver and pickup.
08:29<@Bjarni>well the main thing is that OO should be used when it makes sense. Rewriting working code for the cause of rewriting makes little sense
08:29<@peter1138>yeah, don't use transfer
08:30<Denyerec>Interesting. However then the train sprints off without fully loading.... guess I can't have my cake and eat it ;)
08:30<planetmaker>^^ :) Maybe it changed in the very latest nightly. Haven't tested it...
08:31<planetmaker>There were some very interesting changes on the load orders, though
08:31<teeg>Bjarni: I do see a lot of places where it would make sense though, and what you said at the end is precicely one of those cases. Or, not OO, but more how everything is structured now could be improved on in my opionion.
08:31<Yexo>Denyerec: start using a nighty and use the "Full load any" order
08:31<Yexo>in 0.6.0 full load should work though
08:31<@Bjarni>teeg: I thought like you did at one time. OO can solve a lot of problems but I quickly realised that OO is not a solution on it's own and it's not the best solution for everything
08:31<planetmaker>Yexo: but not, if you want to drop anything at the same station
08:32<teeg>Bjarni: it can be taken too far, I agree. I've seen that happen with, say, Mail::Box for perl, where everything IS an boject
08:32<Yexo>planetmaker: are you sure? I thought full load did unload first, but I'm not sure anymore
08:32<planetmaker>Yexo: I always thought it only loads. But to be sure I'd have to test, too
08:33<Denyerec>Transfer and Full Load seems to load up what it's unloading...
08:33<Yexo>going to test it right now :)
08:33<Denyerec>Unless I'm doing something wrong.
08:33<@peter1138>full load shouldn't stop it unloading, iirc
08:33<Yexo>Denyerec: I ment full load without transfer
08:33<@Bjarni>teeg: What I meant by the last two lines is: don't change for the purpose of changing something. Change something when you add new stuff and you can benefit from using objects and we already do that
08:34<planetmaker>I stand corrected, peter will know :)
08:34<Yexo>transfer means unload at station but don't deliver to industry, so the cargo will stay at the station for another (or the same) vehicle to pick up
08:34<teeg>Bjarni: a bit, yes, but there are still plenty of very global functions which I believe should be done in a different way.
08:34<Celestar>er ... it doesn't build :o
08:35<@Bjarni>Celestar: the trunk?
08:36<Celestar>yah .. /me goes finding out
08:37<@Bjarni>teeg: then give a good example of what you disagree with and how you would benefit from changing it (benefit as it will make your new feature much easier to write or similar)
08:37<Yexo>full load without transfer works, at least in the latest trunk
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08:39<Celestar>make[1]: chdir: No such file or directory
08:40<Gekz>[SRC] Linking openttd.exe
08:40<Gekz>/usr/lib/gcc/i586-mingw32msvc/4.2.1-sjlj/../../../../i586-mingw32msvc/lib/libmingwex.a(mingw_snprintf.o):(.text+0x1d00): multiple definition of `_snprintf'
08:40<Gekz>string.o:string.cpp:(.text+0x4a0): first defined here
08:40<Gekz>collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
08:40<Gekz>... that was more lines than it should have been, sorry >_>
08:41<Roest>erm trunk compiles
08:41<@peter1138>Celestar: run a ./configure?
08:41<Celestar>peter1138: did so
08:42<@peter1138>hmm, path with spaces?
08:42<teeg>Bjarni: it'd be difficult to give a good example offhand, but the example code I gave in that posting does show a bit of what I mean. It would just be a bit simpler to program all the surrounding code. I think the station could for example contain a CargoType object, and the train or whatever could contain a cargotype object (or some sort of cargo container), and you'd compare those. I haven't thought this through 100% yet, but that's the kind of chang
08:43<teeg>Bjarni: but to be honest, I'm getting the feeling that this would be a bit too much to get into trunk to start with, since it'd be a major overhaul for potentially little return to start with, so I do understand if you're all moderately negative to the idea.
08:45*Rubidium ponders why suddenly "everyone" starts lecturing us about not using OO when it could be used and such
08:45<Celestar>:[/nfs/home/fischer/coding/openttd/trunk]> pwd
08:46<Celestar>what the fuck?
08:46<SmatZ>Celestar: VMS?
08:47<planetmaker>trunk compiles here w/o complaining...
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08:48<@Bjarni>teeg: mainly the negative feedback is due to time/benefit factor from such a change. It's also likely that it would reduce speed and add bugs
08:49<nicfer>how comes that the executable installer is smaller than the zip equivalent
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08:49<@Bjarni>teeg: but when it appears to be a good idea we do add member functions and stuff like that and if you feel like we could benefit from it we would hear you out before you actually start
08:49<Celestar>SmatZ: NFS4
08:49<Gekz>trunk compiles for linux here
08:49<teeg>Bjarni: time/benefit I can agree with, speed I can also agree with to a certain extent, but my initial impression of the code itself was that it was now internally so complex that it might cause a few bugs on its own merit.
08:49<Gekz>but not mingw
08:49<Celestar>Gekz: after rechanging the dir it worked
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08:50<teeg>Bjarni: yeah, I'm not writing any code yet, I'm just trying to test the water before I jump in
08:50<Gekz>Celestar: rechanging?
08:50<Celestar>NFS4 fuckup
08:50<Yexo>Gekz: about mingw, have you tried ./configure --without-libfreetype --without-libpng?
08:50<Yexo>that works for me on cygwin
08:51<planetmaker>lalala... network fun...
08:51<Gekz>Yexo: yes
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08:51<Gekz>Yexo: both
08:51<Gekz>Yexo: always both lol
08:52<Roest>so is the fact that my server doesnt appear on the master list still a bug or am i doing something wrong?
08:52-!-dR3x4cK [] has joined #openttd
08:53<Roest>advertising is on
08:53<Gekz>lol I used to run a server called Sexual Cookies
08:53<Gekz>I got random pings every 10 seconds
08:53<Gekz>it was you wasn it SmatZ
08:53<SmatZ>I guess so
08:54<Gekz>damn you
08:54<Gekz>beady eyes
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08:56<Roest>also is there a server switch to turn off the dbg messages for queries and newgrf queries or do i have to turn it off at compile
08:57<Celestar>Roest: -d
08:57<@peter1138>debug_level net=1, heh
08:57<@peter1138>or something
08:58<Ammller>but isn't default debug off already?
08:58<@peter1138>not for servers
08:59<teeg>Bjarni: but if I made a mini-fork (say OpenTTD++), did my thing and actually finished it (unlike all the other patch programmers who've vanished, which is stil to be proven...), would you take a look at it? You don't have to worry overly much for the next few months (it's almost summer, so it's time for me to get my trackdays on), but some day, if I were successfull.
08:59<teeg>that way I wouldn't be lecturing (I'm not lecturing, I'm inquiring so I can see what the general consensus is), and I'd have something concrete to present to everyone.
09:01<Celestar>methinks there's nothing wrong with making forks
09:01-!-Volley [~worf@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:02*Gekz fears the OpenTTDCity fork
09:02<teeg>OpenTTD Societies
09:02<Gekz>"Build a city, then transport things to it."
09:02<Ammller>teeg: there is a eyecandy patch
09:03<Ammller>maybe you could start with that?
09:03<SmatZ>yes, I was thinking about a better SimCity2000 :)
09:03<Ammller>I guess, its from Frostregen, too.
09:04<teeg>eyecandy patch?
09:04<Roest>mind to use simcity4 instead, there's so much user created content for that
09:05<Gekz>teeg: are you makign a SimCity-style OpenTTD fork?
09:05<Gekz>or planning to
09:06<Forked>fork this fork that :(
09:06<Gekz>Silence fool!
09:06<SmatZ>Roest: I like SC2000 the most
09:06<teeg>Gekz: nono, no such thing. I'm just trying to see if there aren't ways to improve the internal structure of openttd so the code itself would be easier. no openttd city, openttd societies or anything like that :P
09:07<Gekz>teeg: oh goody
09:07<Gekz>you just want to audit
09:07<Roest>it was very good i agree, but i got into sc4 then, it's pretty good with the rushhour expansion
09:07<Roest>i dowloaded over 1GB of stuff for it lol
09:08<teeg>Gekz: I was thinking more along the route of revamping than just mere auditing
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09:10<teeg>Personally, whenever I play openttd, I never go into micromanagement of cities, mostly since passengers and mail etc just isn't interesting to micromanage because they don't do destinations yet (except for paxdest, which appears to be getting overly complicated and resource hungry for its own good). It's just a virtual railroad which I try to tweak into performing better and better all the time. so no sim city delusions of grandeour here :P
09:10<@Belugas>[23:41] <DaleStan> Belugas: Yes, 15 bits. "D0XX" often means "D000..D3FF". <- thanks DaleStan. but... "
09:11<@Belugas>"often" ... dos it mean ALWAYS ?
09:11<Gekz>teeg: fix paxdest
09:11<Roest>rewrite paxdest
09:11<teeg>D0xx means D000..D3FF? wouldn't that mean Dxxx?
09:11<Roest>make it OO too
09:11<Gekz>why isnt OO used anyway
09:12<SmatZ>fo OO
09:13<SmatZ>OTTD was coded in C
09:13<Kloopy>Is the current incarnation of paxdest stopped development then?
09:13<Roest>question: when was the last time you've seen quinf on the forum
09:13<teeg>wasn't ottd coded in asm, then ported to C, and now in the process of being migrated to C++
09:14<Roest>it's like people still ask gonozal for an update
09:15<@Belugas>indeed teeg
09:15<@Belugas>but the migration is not a "DO IT NOW" stuff
09:15<@Belugas>when required
09:15<teeg>That'll take years :P
09:15<@Belugas>and not because-OO-rocks-and-nothing-should-be-done-otherwise
09:16<SmatZ>teeg: why should it be made "now"?
09:16<@Belugas>who cares how lng it's gonna take??
09:16<@Belugas>does the game still run? Does it still rocks?
09:16<@Belugas>that's the only importasnt thing
09:16<SmatZ>it rocks! :)
09:16<Roest>smatz is biased
09:17<SmatZ>sure I am
09:17<SmatZ>but not more than you are
09:17<SmatZ>I am sceptical
09:18<teeg>Yes, it does rock from a user perspective, but it could be better from a programmer perspective. And I am willing to at least give it a go with regards to trying to do it "now", just to see how much work it is, how much extra resources it'll use, and how much it'll be liked if I do finish it.
09:18<Roest>it's a lot of work btw
09:18<teeg>Unless of course that isn't something any of the developers is interested in seeing done.
09:18<teeg>Oh, I know it'll be a lot of work
09:18<teeg>I don't know how much, but I know it's a lot of work.
09:19<Gekz>I assume teeg doesnt have a lot of a life :P
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09:19<teeg>Make no mistake, I'm not under the impression it'll be a walk in the park :P
09:19<teeg>Gekz: as a matter of fact, you're right. :P
09:19*Gekz has a lot of life
09:19<Roest>life is overrated anyway
09:19<@Belugas>teeg, if it serves a REAL purpose other than just looking good, it's a waiste of time
09:20<@Belugas>changing for changing is futile
09:20<teeg>So basically, what you're saying is that you're not fond of the idea.
09:20<@Belugas>you have to have a benefit out of it
09:21<@Belugas>that's not what i say
09:21<@Belugas>i say that changing for changing is futile
09:21<teeg>But you're not over the moon about it either :P
09:21<@Belugas>i say that if your idea brings a bonus, it is worht checking
09:22<teeg>I agree. I'm not thinking about putting in all of this effort just for change's sake. I'm too lazy for that. I'm thinking of putting in this effort because I think it WILL bring a bonus. I'm thinking it'll be a programmer time bonus first and foremost, possibly with a bit of a performance impact, but I won't know exactly how much until it's implemented.
09:24<@Belugas>it sounds as if you do not have a plan, nor that you know what awaits you...
09:26<@Belugas>in fact, you kinda remind me of that tgr guy on the forums
09:26<teeg>Um. I am that guy.
09:26<@Belugas>though so...
09:26<@Belugas>welcome to IRC
09:26<@Belugas>by the way
09:26<teeg>heh. thanks. 'tis a bit chilly. :P
09:27-!-Forked [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:27<Kloopy>haha. "You remind me of that really annoying guy who knows nothing on the forums.... *tumbleweed*"
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09:30<Gekz>The silence is awesome
09:30<Gekz>I can taste the awkwardness.
09:32<@Belugas>yeeg: well... it is a bit expected, don't you think? you come on the forums, claiming high and loud that our code is rubbish and that you're going to change it all in OO, just becuase it is the best thing to do, without even knowing all the ins and outs of it. I mean... it is a bit irritating, don't you think?
09:32<@Belugas>There are initiatives that are welcome, becuase they serve a purpose
09:34<teeg>Belugas: I'm not claiming it's rubbish. And after seeing how many of the way the other small patches were welcome, I'm not surprised. Which is why I'm that much more determined to see if it can't be done even better than they are now. I am only trying to _help_ in my own way here.
09:34<@Belugas>no clear purpose nor gain (apart beauty of code) has been etablished by you. Nor did you produced anything yet that would confirm that you are indeed a good coder who would be able to bring more to the game
09:35<@Belugas>There are lots of reasons (and mostly each patch is a case for itself) why a patch can be accepted or refused.
09:35<Roest>i'm a terrible coder, my code is rubbish and my dragndrop land purchase was rejected :(
09:36<@Belugas>I know you want to help, teeg. But it doe snot mean we should embrace arms wide open anything anyhow.
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09:36<Gekz>if passenger routes was implemented into trunk it would make building passenger lines much more exciting
09:36<@Belugas>Roest, it's not the code, it's the feature ;)
09:36<@Belugas>anywa... enough talking, i'
09:36<@Belugas>ve got
09:36<@Belugas>tio work@work
09:37<Gekz>type better
09:37<Roest>i'm still not really satisfied by the reasoning why the feature is unwanted, even if we turn it off in multiplayer
09:38<Gekz>why do you need to purchase land in vast amounts?
09:39<Roest>i tend to develop towns and block the land where i want stations and airports
09:39<teeg>Belugas: not saying that either. I'm all for scepticism, and I'm not expecting any positive feedback until I do actually have something to show for it. But in the meantime I'll stfu since this apparently isn't going to be a very productive thing to discuss until I've done it.
09:40*peter1138 is all for teeg doing whatever he wants
09:40<Roest>mostly i reserve the 9x11 tiles for the largest airport
09:40<@peter1138>none of us is a c++ developer
09:40<@peter1138>c++ programmer, i should say
09:41<Gekz>c++ hippie*
09:42<Roest>i'm a z80 assembler hippie
09:43<larsemil>qbasic? :D
09:43<Gekz>I use z/OS!
09:46<Celestar>peter1138: I'm begging to get one due to a work project \o/
09:46<Celestar>but slowly
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09:49<@Bjarni>teeg: making a fork is likely not the way to go. It would be better to have a dialogue about what you want to do (like writing a little about what to change and why) and then if we like the idea we can figure out a plan on how to actually do it
09:51<Kloopy>Roest: Why was drag and drop purchasing declined?
09:51<Roest>since the possible harm you can do in multiplay i guess
09:51<Roest>buying large areas around industries and block other players
09:51<@Bjarni>and by actually doing it I mean like figuring out what steps to take and do it step by step rather than making a huge patch because huge patches are known to fail for countless reasons. Not even developers with commit access likes to make too big patches for a single commit because they tend to conflict with the trunk and so on
09:51<Kloopy>But you can do harm in do many other ways, like building rail to block competitors... The idea is that by doign that sort of thing you get kicked/banned from the server.
09:52<Roest>damn bjarni i already had a name for the fork, like ooottd or o3ttd
09:52<Kloopy>ooottd lol
09:53<teeg>Bjarni: Agreed. and too big a patch would piss off other patch programmers as well. In short (as I said earlier), I'll shut up and create something I can present, instead of just a lot of hot air about nothing.
09:54<Noldo>teeg: If you like global varible hunting I can join you
09:54<@Bjarni>Roest: while OOOTTD would be an interesting name I care more for the contents and if I think that it wouldn't work well for some reason I feel like I should at least tell how I feel about it
09:54<@Bjarni>but an interesting name indeed
09:55<teeg>"ooooh ttd!"
09:55<Tefad>is there yet a complete redistributable graphics pack?
09:56<Gekz>is there an incomplete one?
09:56<Tefad>is there an effort to have one?
09:56<Roest>so ttd being on several abandon ware sites is illegal?
09:56<Tefad>if so, would it ever be included with ottd
09:56<Tefad>Roest: to use ottd i think you need to have a license for ttd
09:56<Tefad>due to graphics
09:57<@peter1138>Roest: of course it is
09:57<hylje>one could always run a parallel branch of ottd which boasts redistributable gfx and sound
09:57<Tefad>abandonware in general is illegal
09:57<Gekz>replace the sounds with your voice
09:57<Tefad>unless copyright holder gives free license to works.
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09:58<@Bjarni>teeg, Noldo: about global variable hunting. You should be aware that some of them are global to be compatible with load/save so a plan for making one non-global would likely benefit from starting to figure out how it would still work with load/save
09:58<Tefad>have we even figured out who owns ttd rights yet?
09:58<hylje>that parallel branch would be fairly simple to maintain, even, just pull the changesets once in a while from hg/git
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09:59<teeg>Bjarni: I was thinking about that on my way to work today actually, that's a good point I hadn't thought of.
10:00<@Bjarni>the same goes for stuff in openttd.cfg
10:01<@Bjarni>just killing the global var and add accessors when it's used isn't that tricky. It's when it comes to config file and savegames it becomes tricky
10:01<Mwa>Is it just me, or do the last few mac os x nightly builds not work?
10:01<@Bjarni>if simple accessors would have done the trick then we would likely have dealt with this ourselves ages ago
10:01<hylje>but you haven't, because you're incompetent
10:02<Noldo>there might be ones similar to expence type thing
10:02<Mwa>16/04/2008 14:56:21[104] ([0x0-0x6a06a].org.openttd.openttd[696]) posix_spawnp("/Users/lexi/Downloads/OTTD-macosx-intel-nightly-r12705/", ...): Bad executable (or shared library)
10:02<teeg>My initial idea for solving that would be to make the objects themselves serialize themselves or something. I'm not sure yet, but I'll make damned sure I take that into account, because I assume it won't just be with config files and savegames, but also multiplayer
10:03<@Bjarni>Mwa: there is a known issue with Intel 10.5 and the nightly build. Try the PPC built instead and pray that rosetta will emulate it correctly. Alternatively you can compile yourself
10:04<@Bjarni>as luck would happen somebody updated the wiki page an hour ago on how to compile on mac when using 10.5
10:05<Mwa>Wouldn't it be a case of just downloading the svn and typing ./configure;make?
10:05<@Bjarni>Mwa: be aware that Rosetta isn't known to deal well with OpenTTD and even if it acts nicely it will still be slower
10:05<hylje>you need the dependencies
10:05-!-nicfer [~chatzilla@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:06<hylje>for instance, a compiler
10:06<Mwa>Of course I have one of those
10:06<@Bjarni>Mwa: more or less yes. Somebody claimed that Apple included svn in 10.5 by default so you don't need to think about dependencies. I can't verify that though
10:06<teeg>Mwa: if you do ./configure;make it'll run make irregardless of whether or not configure succeeded. :P
10:06<hylje>development headers for the libs ottd happens to use as well
10:07<@Bjarni><hylje> for instance, a compiler <-- according to the wiki page you just install Xcode and then dependancies like "a compiler" will be installed
10:07<@Bjarni>and I can verify that one (otherwise I wouldn't have written it like that)
10:07<Mwa>Oh that reminds me, it was bugging me about some updates yesterday
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10:08<@Bjarni>I don't know anything about 10.5 or Xcode 3 updates as I'm still in the 10.4 era
10:09<@peter1138>bjarni's in the dark ages
10:09<@Bjarni>basically I use 3rd party software that claims not to work with 10.5. They are working on an update though
10:09<Gekz>Bjarni: what softs?
10:10<Roest>ewww mac
10:10<@Bjarni>but... I still don't see why I should update. I have yet to see an improvement (for me) that will make it worth the money
10:10<hylje>Roest: take your arrogance elsewhere
10:10<@Bjarni>Gekz: it has to do with the TV tuner
10:10<@Bjarni>Roest: as well as your ignorance
10:10<Gekz>I hate Mac OS X
10:11<Gekz>I can't stand it
10:11<Gekz>the whole .app thing drives me mad
10:11<Mwa>Bjarni, it's damn good. Quicklook is wonderful for one
10:11-!-Gekz was kicked from #openttd by Bjarni [I will help you to follow the requests we just wrote]
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10:11<Gekz>excuse me?
10:11<Roest>whats left if you get rid of ignorance and arrogance
10:12<@Bjarni>Gekz: take your arrogance and ignorance elsewhere ;)
10:12<Roest>need a word with *ance please
10:12<Gekz>Bjarni: its not ignorance or arrogance
10:12<Gekz>I've been using Mac OS X for the past 10 weeks
10:12<Gekz>and I cant stand it
10:12<Gekz>I'm sorry that you cant handle personal opinion
10:12<@Bjarni>I thought you were just acting silly
10:13<@Bjarni>usually when people gives an outburst like that then they never used mac at all
10:13<hylje>if you were a reasonable person, you'd have based your opinion on something other than "I CANT FUCKING STAND IT"
10:13<Gekz>I dont have opinions based on nothing.
10:13<Gekz>I like to test things before making outrageous comments
10:13<Mwa>.app bundles are cool. What's wrong with 'em? What I dislike is the way that all an application's data is flicked about throught the whole ~/Library/ folder instead of being in hidden folders in the home
10:13<Gekz>BUT, I do like macfuse :P
10:13<Gekz>I dont like how the system is hidden in Finder
10:13<Gekz>hidden from* Finder
10:14<Mwa>Who uses the finder?
10:14<@Bjarni>users who knows too little to mess with the system
10:14<Gekz>yes, and I have to help them constantly
10:14<@Bjarni>if you know enough to mess with the system then you don't mind the terminal
10:14<Gekz>I had to learn to use Mac OS X to help my software design teacher
10:14<Gekz>I used the terminal the whole time
10:14<@Bjarni>I mean you have to use sudo anyway
10:15<Gekz>but I dont understand WHY finder hides the system
10:15<Gekz>it boggles me
10:15<Gekz>theres probably an option to unhide that
10:15<Mwa>Because the stuff it hides, no normal user ever needs to see
10:15<Gekz>but never looked
10:15<@Bjarni>I think it's to protect users from breaking their system
10:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12734 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a big byte array for StringSpriteToDraw.
10:15<Mwa>What's a normal person to do with /bin for instance?
10:15-!-Ammller [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
10:15<Mwa>"A bin? I'll chuck my unwanted files in it!"
10:16<@Bjarni><Mwa> .app bundles are cool. What's wrong with 'em? <-- we didn't get an answer on that one
10:16<@Bjarni>Mwa: :D
10:16<Mwa>or indeed "A bin? That means I can delete it to save space!"
10:16<Gekz>Mwa: why would the user have write access
10:17<Mwa>Who knows
10:17<@Bjarni>reminds me of a guy I once knew. He found a file inside the windows dir (in win95) and he didn't know what it was supposed to do so he decided that it wasn't important and deleted it to gain free space
10:17<@Bjarni>then he couldn't boot anymore
10:17<Mwa>In any case, there is a directive that enables you to see all the hidden files
10:17<teeg>boot.ini isn't in the windows dir
10:17<teeg>it's on C:\
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10:18<Noldo>there is propably more than one files that could have been it
10:18<Gekz>I dont use win95
10:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12735 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for TileSpriteToDraw.
10:18<Gekz>Bjarni: is it possible to execute an .app from the console?
10:18<teeg>Gekz: it's valid for all versions of windows from 95 and up I believe. it's on my xp system anyways. but this is just being pedantic, sorry. :P
10:18<Gekz>teeg: I dont use Windows.
10:18<Gekz>at all.
10:19<teeg>old mac or *nix then?
10:19<Mwa>defaults write AppleShowAllFiles -bool TRUE
10:19<@Bjarni><Gekz> Bjarni: is it possible to execute an .app from the console? <-- yes... naturally it is
10:19<Mwa>Gekz, thar
10:19<Gekz>Bjarni: how
10:19<Mwa>And for the console, you can either use Open -a Application
10:19<Mwa>or cd /Applications
10:19<@Bjarni>the binary file is in *.app/Contents/MacOS/(filename)
10:19<Gekz>lol how intuitive
10:20<teeg>used to be a debian person myself (got debian on this box), but moved over to kubuntu for the desktop since it's a bit more up to date (but buggier) than debian.
10:20<Gekz>never knew that Bjarni
10:20<@Bjarni>usually bundle applications aren't intended for CLI usage
10:20<Gekz>I like to do a lot of work from the console though
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10:20<Gekz>this is why mac os x isnt for me
10:20*hylje believes there's a helper app that launches .apps
10:20*Gekz is a power-abuser
10:20<Mwa>Yes, it's open
10:20<Mwa>open -a Application
10:21<Mwa>Also works for other files
10:21<Gekz>I also don't like the proprietary-ness of macs
10:21<Gekz>I dont like purchasing apps -_-
10:21<@Bjarni><Gekz> never knew that Bjarni <-- I had to figure it out because Xcode makes the bundle just nicely but I wanted to do so from the makefile so basically it makes everything in the bundle manually
10:21<Gekz>I dont like pirating things either
10:21<@Bjarni>setting up all the dirs and settings files inside the bundle
10:21<Gekz>I had to install macports
10:21<Gekz>and it had a random error
10:22<Gekz>we couldnt work it out
10:22<Gekz>ran it from the console
10:22<Gekz>turns out it was trying to update through a proxy
10:22<Gekz>with no info about it
10:22<@Bjarni>heh... Didn't know open
10:22<@Bjarni>nice to know
10:22<Mwa>very useful little tool
10:22<Mwa>you can use open -e file to make it open in textedit
10:23<Mwa>I'm going to go shopping now. See you in a bit
10:23<Gekz>I just like having a package manager
10:23<Gekz>a central control point for packages
10:24<Gekz>without me having to drag things around
10:24<@Bjarni>there is nothing that prevents you from using OpenTTD as a CLI app only
10:25<@Bjarni>when you compile it you end up with a binary that acts like the linux binary when it comes to file search and so on. The only difference is that it can be aware of the fact that it ends up in a bundle and can add search paths based on that
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10:27<Mwa>As I pass the computer searching for my coat, I will point out here that app bundles eliminate the need for folders, as you can put everything inside them.
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10:28<@Bjarni>updating OpenTTD is just drag-n-drop the bundle as all the needed files (lang files, grf files..) are placed inside the bundle
10:29<Gekz>I like my directory structure
10:29<@Bjarni>updating couldn't be easier
10:29<Gekz>yes, but its space-mongering
10:29<Gekz>doesnt that mean everything is statically-compiled?
10:29<Mwa>I will also point out that in the windows version of the nightly builds, the new train orders interface is very confusing. (Also, not just a drag and drop if you installed the original ttd grf files inside the app bundle)
10:29<@Bjarni>it will not have to be statically linked to work with a bundle
10:30<@Bjarni>in fact Apple recommends that people link dynamically
10:30<Gekz>Mwa: the one with the Load, Full Load, Full Load Any or No Load
10:30<Gekz>it made me cry
10:30<Gekz>then I got over it
10:30<Gekz>and quite enjoy it
10:30<@Bjarni>but I decided on linking statically because otherwise too many people would ditch the game because they couldn't figure out how to install libpng
10:30<Gekz>could do with some tweaking though
10:30<Mwa>when I click 'unload', it displays 'unload and take cargo'
10:30<Mwa>this seems wrong to my mind
10:31<Gekz>thats what I thought also
10:31<Gekz>"Unload without prejudice"
10:31<Gekz>that would look so awesome
10:31<Mwa>Especially as this then causes all my goods stations to fill with passengers if one of the trains isn't refitted to contain goods
10:32<Yexo>that's why normally you don't want to use unload
10:32<Gekz>unload is for transfers
10:32<Yexo>as goods will unload anyway if they accept it
10:32<@Bjarni>we could add an AI to figure out if the cargo should be loaded or unloaded and then you wouldn't need to consider this
10:32<Mwa>the wiki said to use unload
10:32<Gekz>like when you have an airport in the wrong place
10:32<Yexo>Mwa: what page?
10:32<Gekz>Bjarni: do it!
10:32<@Bjarni>and based on how well the AI works in general in the game it wouldn't be that tricky to meet such a standard
10:33<Mwa>Yexo, the tutorial did when I read it
10:33<Mwa>that was a couple of months ago though
10:33<Gekz>Bjarni: doesnt the default AI work quite well except for their building algorithms?
10:33<Gekz>the random lines of doom
10:33<Mwa>Gekz, it doesn't do much else other than build
10:33<Gekz>and the terraforming craptasm.
10:33<Gekz>Mwa: it can work out how to get one thing from one place to another
10:33<Gekz>without style.
10:34<Mwa>Gekz, no it can't
10:34<Gekz>yes it can!
10:34<Yexo>the tutorials says: "Unload ...Any cargo accepted by that station will be handled as usual, i.e. you will be paid. Any cargo not accepted by the station will be unloaded anyway and left for another vehicle to pick up...."
10:34<@Bjarni>the AI always uses the newest available engine buildable in the depot and once the line is active it never looks at it again
10:34<Mwa>I often see tracks spiraling forwards and backwards as it builds and deletes while hopelessly trying to get somewhere that I could get to with a single bridge
10:34<@Bjarni>I'm not sure I would consider that to be a good AI
10:34<Gekz>thats not what I meant lol
10:35<Mwa>but anyway, I'm actually leaving now
10:35<Mwa>bye :p
10:35<Gekz>I meant its algorithm for deciding where to build two stations
10:35<@Bjarni>but the night is young
10:35<Gekz>and how to manage the train One Time Only (tm)
10:35<Mwa>I do rather need to go shopping
10:35<Mwa>also it's only 3pm
10:35<@Bjarni>don't want to starve I see
10:35<Eddi|zuHause2><Ammller> planetmaker: the most famous and oldest "not going to trunk" patch :-) <- i thought subsidiaries patch is older than c&p
10:36<Roest>wow someone is reading irc logs
10:36<@Bjarni><Gekz> I meant its algorithm for deciding where to build two stations <-- I have seen two airports that were closer to each other than one of them were from the town it were supposed to service
10:36*planetmaker does that from time to time, too...
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it could have been something important there...
10:37<@Bjarni>on IRC???
10:37<Gekz>Bjarni: I said train!
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>but it's only crap about OO and MacOS
10:37<Ammler>is subsidiaries still maintained?
10:37<@Bjarni>Gekz is talking crap about Mac o_O
10:37<Gekz>Mac makes its own crap
10:37<Gekz>it costs the monies!
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: i kinda doubt it, but i haven't checked...
10:38<Gekz>plus I love my xfce
10:38<Roest>i thought you can talk crap about mac
10:38<Tefad>mac what's that
10:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i assume it died with the C++ port
10:38*Bjarni wonders what computer crap looks like
10:38<Tefad>hey conky : D
10:38<Gekz>that is my desktop lol
10:38<Ammler>I guess, there is something new bases on truelights sharing patch for wwottdgd
10:38-!-GoneWacko [] has quit [Quit: You will never be the man your mother was!]
10:39<Tefad>Gekz: still running xandros?
10:39<Gekz>Tefad: rofl no
10:39<@Bjarni><Tefad> mac what's that <-- that's some hardware that can run OSX
10:39<Gekz>Bjarni: my dell can run Mac OS X
10:39<Tefad>neat, i've seen non mac hardware that runs OS X
10:39<Gekz>doesnt mean its worth it
10:39<@Bjarni>Tefad: OSX is the OS you have on the old computer in the corner
10:39<planetmaker>^^ and linux and windows, and... too :)
10:39<Tefad>yeah i had 10.3 on one of my powersurges
10:40<Gekz>planetmaker: not AIX
10:40<@Bjarni><Gekz> Bjarni: my dell can run Mac OS X <-- not according to the EULA
10:40<Gekz>Bjarni: read the EULA again
10:40<Tefad>but 3GB isn't enough to do anything with
10:40<Gekz>it says Apple-labelled
10:40<Gekz>I can get a Dymo labeller
10:40<Gekz>and write Apple on it
10:40<planetmaker>Gekz: sure? Haven't given it a shot in a VM, but...
10:40<Gekz>planetmaker: I'
10:40<Gekz>m sure.
10:40<Gekz>it will not run.
10:40<Tefad>there's a new apple clone maker now
10:41<planetmaker>but not 100% cloned.
10:41<Tefad>emulates EFI or something
10:41<Gekz>how second-rate
10:41<Ammler>if a "patcher" is bored, I would like to see that patch on current trunk: ;-)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: afaik subsidiaries had big problems with multiplayer, and it was considered wrong by design, so pretty early it was decided that it's not going to trunk
10:41<@Bjarni> <-- this one can run OSX as well and that's not a mac either
10:42<Gekz>Bjarni: my eee can run Mac OS X
10:42<Gekz>Asus EeePC
10:42<Tefad>Gekz: really?
10:42<Roest>ammler i think that thing died because it didnt support these ultra low resolution nobody uses
10:42<Gekz>yes, really.
10:43<Tefad>700MHz of screaming agony.
10:43<planetmaker>The NewGRF-GUI would be indeed a "nice-to-have" feature.
10:43<Roest>and yes i'd like that one too
10:43<Gekz>Tefad: it doesnt run too bad actually
10:43<Tefad>Bjarni: that's what i was talking about
10:43<Ammler>oh, don't get me wrong, I do not want it IN trunk, only compatible for trunk
10:44<Gekz>no, go for trunk
10:44<Gekz>it needs an update
10:44<Gekz>and that kicks ass.
10:44<Roest>and diff 11499 means it's a nightmare to bring it to current trunk
10:44<Gekz>it doesnt look like it would be that complex.
10:44<Ammler>there is a solution how to handle small res.
10:44<Roest>go for it then gekz
10:44<Ammler>(just use old GUI for them ;-)
10:45<Gekz>how would it not fit on 640x480?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause2>there are solutions < 640x480
10:48<Gekz>they dont count
10:48<Gekz>people dont use them
10:48<Gekz>and never have!
10:48<@Bjarni>some handheld devices use 320x240
10:48<Eddi|zuHause2>civ 1 ran on 320x200
10:49<Roest>it's all nice and fancy, but seriously, who plays on these handheld devices
10:50<Celestar>most games before like 1994 ran around 320x200 or 320x240
10:50<Ammler>hmm, why not
10:50<Celestar>CIV1 had some 640x240 mode iirc
10:51<Eddi|zuHause2>never seen that...
10:51<Celestar>maybe I'm mistaken
10:51<Eddi|zuHause2>it had different modes for amount of colours, though
10:51<Celestar>possible that 640x240 only worked on 16 colors
10:51<Celestar>likely because it was written for 256kb vram or something
10:51<Gekz>but why should we have to give up nice things for the poor people
10:52*Celestar computes
10:52<SmatZ>games from 80's-90's supported many video adapters - Tandy, Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA :)
10:52<Gekz>and afaik, ports to handhelds are not part of the main project that is OpenTTD
10:52<Celestar>Gekz: because I didn't have a color monitor
10:52<Gekz>Celestar: I didnt have a colour monitor until 1998
10:52<planetmaker>hm... any chance to solve the resolution problem with a simple if... else clause?
10:52<Ammler>Roest: <-- this guy for example :-)
10:52<Celestar>planetmaker: what resolution problem are we talking about?
10:53<Eddi|zuHause2>320x200x256 or 640x480x16 were 256kB i believe
10:53<SmatZ>320x200x256 fits in 64kB
10:53<@peter1138>civ was 320x200 only
10:53<Gekz>if they're real men they'd configure their newgrfs in the config
10:53<Eddi|zuHause2>there was also a 640x400 mode for some devices
10:53<Gekz>no gui for them
10:53<planetmaker>Celestar: people here said that the NewGRF-GUI would have problems with small resolutions (of the screen)
10:53<Gekz>also, I've played OpenTTD on a Palm TX
10:54<Gekz>I do not recommend it
10:54<Roest>i guess playing wihtout a mouse is just painful
10:54<planetmaker>Celestar: it may, as it has a pretty wide window. But for "normal" PCs no problem, only for handhelds and such
10:54<Eddi|zuHause2>i played TTO without mouse a lot of times
10:54<Ammler>Roest: with a pen
10:55<Celestar>I see
10:55<Eddi|zuHause2>TTD(win) lost the ability to move the pointer with alt+←↓→↑
10:55<Gekz>playing Baldurs Gate on a nokia
10:55<Gekz>I want to do that!
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10:56<Gekz>Baldurs Gate 2 on a nokia
10:57<Eddi|zuHause2>i want that feature back, but nobody listens to me anyway
10:57<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: lol.
10:57<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: flyspray feature request!
10:57-!-Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
10:58<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: I bet the time setting patch would have been useful back then :P
10:58<Gekz>at the moment, it takes an hour for a year to pass
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>what time setting patch?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean daylength?
10:58<Gekz>I'm only at 1937 and I have $10,000,000 lol
10:58-!-Purno [] has joined #openttd
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>not necessarily...
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>F1 key is very popular ;)
10:59<Gekz>pause ftw.
11:01<Gekz>I dont believe I havent started more games at 19301
11:01<Gekz>you have one bus, no other vehicles, and a few trains
11:01<Gekz>its awesome
11:01<Gekz>lol, and if you have the PlaneSetw.grf, you have the Zeppelin
11:02<Eddi|zuHause2>i always start 1920
11:02<Eddi|zuHause2>or 1923 if i get tired of using BR 92
11:03<Gekz>you're insane :P
11:03<Eddi|zuHause2>why? that's the intended way to use the set
11:03<Gekz>I know
11:04<Gekz>but still
11:04<Eddi|zuHause2>plus, you have the Ford Model T ;)
11:04<hylje>how so
11:04<hylje>choo choo
11:04<Eddi|zuHause2>and a tram, depending on which set you use
11:04<Gekz>Ford Model T?
11:05<Gekz>what set is that
11:05<@peter1138>yeah, starting in 1920 is the only way to play properly
11:05<Denyerec>I have been starting in 1940
11:06<Denyerec>now I hear 1920 is the way to go? Ye gads!
11:06<Eddi|zuHause2>DBSet engines get expensive if you start in later stages
11:06<Gekz>UK Bus Set
11:06<frosch123><Eddi|zuHause2> or 1923 if i get tired of using BR 92 <- yes, that is why I always start in 1923 :p
11:06<SmatZ>and with breakdowns
11:06<Eddi|zuHause2>frosch123: yes, there is too little choice in 1920
11:06<@peter1138>half the game is missed if you start in 1940 ;)
11:06<Gekz>breakdowns suck
11:06<Gekz>someone should rewrite it
11:06<Gekz>to be more realistic
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11:07<Gekz>give me a reason why it just sounded like it exploded
11:07<Gekz>and stopped in the middle of nowhere
11:07<SmatZ>it happens
11:07-!-[1]Mark is now known as Mark
11:09<SmatZ>ask mr. Sawyer
11:09<Gekz>gimme his number
11:09<SmatZ> I guess
11:09-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
11:10<Eddi|zuHause2>unreliability should change some properties of the engines, like maintenance costs *2, or max speed -20km/h
11:11<SmatZ>I think newgrf can do that
11:11<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: how many seasons of House M.D. have you watched?
11:11<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: zip, null, nada
11:12<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: ok, i recommend starting with season 1 episode 1.
11:12<Digitalfox_Home>Eddi|zuHause2 don't know what you are losing :)
11:12<Gekz>you cant lose what you dont have
11:12<Gekz>and I hate House.
11:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i missed the start in germany, haven't got around to catch up after that
11:13<ln>lucky you, you get to watch it with original voices then.
11:13<Digitalfox_Home>Gekz say you hate House again and I will press the little button on my red phone saying Nuclear missile launch =0
11:14<Gekz>House is shithouse.
11:14<Digitalfox_Home>ok, missile away.. Wait a couple of hours but don't home.. Don't want it to miss =0
11:14<Digitalfox_Home>*don't go away from home
11:16<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: what i always wondered, in the german version of scrubs (around season 6, maybe 5) there is a line like "Ich bin Doktor House ... -meister"... i have no idea how that would work in english
11:16<Eddi|zuHause2>[said by the maintenance guy]
11:17<Eddi|zuHause2>[who is called "Hausmeister" in german]
11:17<Denyerec>House rocks.
11:17<Denyerec>As does a series called The Wire.
11:18<Denyerec>which sadly has made every other TV show look like utter, overacted, poorly produced shit.
11:18<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: "House... -keeper" maybe?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: i take it you don't watch scrubs ;)
11:18<Denyerec>You guys prefer to build a T-shaped mainline, circumnavigate the map, or go for a + shaped mainline ?
11:19<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: nope, never even heard about it before. :)
11:19<Eddi|zuHause2>it's totally genious... even in the german translation ;)
11:21<@Bjarni>there is a genius German translation?
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: a lot of german translations are good if you don't compare them to the original
11:21<@Bjarni>I like the condition :D
11:22<Eddi|zuHause2>so a translation of a comedy series is good, if you laugh your ass off anyway
11:22<@Bjarni>good point
11:22<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause2: no it's not as good as the German translation, he just says I'm a doctor or something like that if I remember it correct
11:23<@Bjarni>btw speaking of Germany... Angela Merkel were on TV
11:23<@Bjarni>apparently she got boobs
11:23<Mirrakor>angela merkel and her breast... *shrughs*
11:24<@Bjarni>I was not too happy about her before this incident
11:24-!-[1]Mark [] has joined #openttd
11:24<@Bjarni>now she is history in my opinion
11:24<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: Star Trek: First Contact was so well dubbed in Polish that i couldn't help laughing my ass of even though i don't understand Polish.
11:25*hylje doesnt think star trek is comedy gold to begin with
11:25<@Bjarni>read the first half of that line and though "What? He knows Polish?"
11:26<Eddi|zuHause2>star trek 4 and 6 are quite comically
11:27<SmatZ>yeah :) "Computer, hello, computer" :)
11:27<SmatZ>"Use the mouse..."
11:28<Eddi|zuHause2>"these were not his knees" ;)
11:28<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: original voices can be heard from the background, one single male voice speaks everyone's lines, including females'.
11:28<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: yes, i know how polish translations work ;)
11:29<ln>yeah, so, try to listen to such without laughing.
11:29<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause2: In the english version he just says: "Dr. Jan-Itor" (Janitor engl. Hausmeister), he refered to himself as "Dr. Jan Itor" a few times
11:29<Eddi|zuHause2>it's even funnier when they speak german in the background ;)
11:29<@Bjarni>at one time somebody read about a new addition to MacOS (pre OSX days) and he wrote an Email about how great it would be to get it. He thought it was something from the future and wrote "Star Trek anyone?". Somebody replied with "did they finally add a mic to the mouse?"
11:29-!-Mark [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:30-!-[1]Mark is now known as Mark
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11:31<@Bjarni>how can it be funnier when they speak German?
11:31<DaleStan><Belugas> "often" ... dos it mean ALWAYS ? <-- The Text ID range is always D000..D3FF. Some TTDPatch callback handlers only accept 8-bit returns, but this is, IMO, only for hysterical raisins.
11:31<DaleStan><teeg> D0xx means D000..D3FF? wouldn't that mean Dxxx? <-- No. There are 5 different ranges in Dxxx. D000..D3FF is NFO-writable, D400..D7FF is NFO-read-only, D800..DBFF is read-only in Patch code and undefined in NFO, DC00..DCFF is completely different NFO-writable range, and DD00..DFFF is undefined everywhere.
11:31<@Bjarni>hi Roujin
11:31<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: (very) rarely they add jokes when there weren't any in the original
11:33<Eddi|zuHause2>these NFO conversations are fun, one sentence every 12 hours ;)
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11:38<@Bjarni>in one of the first Tintin movies they changed what they said in the Danish translation. They added parodies of famous Danes and wordplays and stuff like that
11:38<@Bjarni>now I really wonder what they actually said in the original
11:39<Mwa>I return!
11:40<@Bjarni>they did make a great deal out of it and used some of the most famous movie actors to add the voices. The sports broadcast on a radio were spoken by a real (and most likely most famous ever) sports reporter
11:40<@Bjarni>you don't see such a collection of people adding voices for a cartoon today
11:41<@Bjarni>Mwa: let me guess... you got run over and then you were raised by a necromancer so you could state that you returned, right?
11:41<SmatZ>maybe they are not allowed to change text in translation that much
11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: they often do that kind of stuff for the simpsons here
11:41<hylje>localized jokes are ok
11:41<hylje>so are localized wordplays
11:43<@Bjarni>I read that Monsters Inc had an interesting German translation. The Yeti spoke Austrian and said that he would rather have gone to his relatives in the Alps than to the Himalayas
11:43<@Bjarni>maybe this is a reference on how Austrians behave or looks or something xD
11:43<hylje>in before shitstorm
11:43<Mwa>Bjarni, no. I did buy a potted plant though.
11:45<Mwa>Oh, and I had a thought for openttd: You should be able to fund new towns like you can with industries
11:45<@Bjarni>I like a certain part of the Danish subtitles on "'Allo 'Allo". There were a play on words in English and word by word translation wouldn't work. They figured out how to rephrase it to keep the context and the play on words
11:45<@Bjarni>now that was rather impressive
11:45<Kloopy>Mwa doesn't read the forums. ;)
11:45<@Belugas>thanks DaleStan. "Some TTDPatch callback handlers only accept 8-bit returns, but this is, IMO, only for hysterical raisins." Identifying those who are 15bits aware precisely can be a bitchy task, i would assume. The callbacks wiki page lacks that information, from waht i've read so far
11:45<Mwa>There are forums?
11:46<@Bjarni>he asked where the forums are, not where the thread about that topic is
11:46<@Bjarni>you replied incorrectly :P
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>typically, around 50% of the word plays or references get lost in a translation from english to german
11:47<Kloopy>If you want to be pedantic, Bjarni, he didn't ask where the forums are, he just asked if there were any. :P
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i remember an NCIS episode, where they tried to translate chat acronyms like "LMAO"
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>you could immediately tell that it was a total failure
11:47<@Bjarni>you are right
11:48<@Bjarni>Mwa: yes there are forums on the internet :P
11:48<@Bjarni>he didn't ask where either
11:48<@Bjarni>Mwa: yes there are forums :P
11:48<Eddi|zuHause2>the forum romanum for example...
11:48<Kloopy>But it shows how clever and helpful we are because we did our best to work out what he REALLY meant to ask!
11:49<Eddi|zuHause2>in the middle of rome, like the name suggests
11:49<Mwa>I went and looked on for 'forums' when you said about them. :p
11:49<Mwa>I doubt I would have found that topic though. Thans.
11:50<Kloopy>I find that if there's a feature I really want it's either in the "Suggestions" forum or someone has already done some work and I can find it on the "Development" forum.
11:50<@Bjarni>the forums are a great resource for ideas and info about the game
11:50<@Bjarni>however you should watch your steps as you might be attacked by ignorance and stupidity
11:51<@Bjarni>it's the internet after all
11:51<Eddi|zuHause2>Mwa: should work
11:51<Eddi|zuHause2>or forum.*
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11:55<Kloopy>If the person with responsibility for DNS on the domain wanted to do that, there's no reason to not implement both URLs.
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>that's most likely truebrain
11:56<Kloopy>I realise this might be a really naughty questions considering the channel we're in. But I know a fair few people who love to play OpenTTD but none that play TTDPatch. What's different about Patch and why are there two competing games that could surely combine resources and implement more features?
11:57<Ammler>Kloopy: they already do -> NewGRFs
11:57<DaleStan>Kloopy: Language, and development goals. At least.
11:57<Kloopy>Of course NewGRFs, but there's so much more to it than that.
11:57<Eddi|zuHause2>Kloopy: hysterically, TTDP was first, so it has got a head start on the amount of features
11:57<@Belugas>that conversation is not going to happen. Don't want to hrea a war in here...
11:57<@Bjarni>the forum users declared war on us o_O
11:57<Kloopy>I don't meant to start a war, Belugas.
11:57<@Belugas>that's a topic VERY prone to a war
11:57<Kloopy>Hmm, ok. :)
11:57<@Bjarni>Maybe a good idea to create a subforum in which posters can warship the devs? <--- this is what somebody wrote and he gained support in no time
11:58*Kloopy throws petals over everyone to make them smile.
11:58<DaleStan>Well, "didn't mean to" doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.
11:58<Mwa>what, "Why don't we comebine forces so everyone can be happy" is fighting talk? ;O
11:59<DaleStan>Because it's been said umpteen times before, and everyone except the person asking the question this time knows it's completely impossible.
12:00<Mwa>Fair enough
12:00<@peter1138>personally i consider people like dalestan helping out here as 'combining resources' ...
12:01<@peter1138>just a bug report even, heh
12:01<Kloopy>I just didn't/don't quite understand why there are two separate and very similar community driven and voluntary based coding groups.
12:01<@Belugas>and we favor collaboration a lot more than confrontation, or competition for what's worth
12:01<Kloopy>peter, he's just stealing your ideas. ;) :P
12:02<@peter1138>rubbish, i have no original ideas
12:02<Mwa>Also according to their site ttdp hasn't updated in a year
12:02<Kloopy>I was just reading that too.
12:02<@peter1138>it's not true :)
12:02<@Belugas>nightlies are done
12:03<DaleStan>It was last updated approximately 12 hour ago.
12:03<Ammler>there aren't many ASM coder left ;-)
12:03<Kloopy>Just no "official" releases?
12:03<Mwa>It was? Well, 24 hours ago it said it was last updated in 2007
12:03<Kloopy>Mwa, it's a nightlies style update.
12:03<@peter1138>code update, not release
12:04<Ammler>DaleStan: the new Transparent GUI looks a little bit confusing
12:04<Kloopy>Not an offical version numbered release, just a general, "we've added this code and compiled it for you, aren't we nice2.
12:04-!-Mwa [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:04<Kloopy>Bye. :(
12:04<Kloopy>Someone upset Mwa? :P
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12:04<Mwa>That was the wrong application, whoops.
12:05<Kloopy>lol :P
12:05<DaleStan>Wally was suggesting that I only use the obviously three-state buttons when transparent or invisible is selected. I haven't done that yet, though.
12:06<Ammler>well the one from OTTD isn't that better
12:08<Roujin>well for three states it's hard to find a solution which is _not_ confusing i guess
12:08<Roujin>maybe drop downs...
12:08<Eddi|zuHause2>assembler is not compiled. it is assembled
12:09<Ammler>4 states, locking
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12:10<Roujin>if you count that, it's 6 states
12:10<Ammler>does it need to show all possible states everytime?
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12:11<Roujin>because locking is a boolean option individual from the other, tri-state option
12:13<Roest>ammler there you go
12:13<Ammler>newgrf qui?
12:14<Roest>it's dirty but seem to work
12:14<ln>does "thirty pieces of silver" automatically mean something to some of you?
12:15<Roest>in a rpg sense? like from 50 games or so
12:15<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: i only know "pieces of eight"
12:15<Ammler>Roest: it works as a client side only patch, doesn't?
12:16<ln>in a biblical sense (which i know after i googled it).
12:16<Roest>i think so
12:16<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: then it has to do with judas
12:16<ln>but was said in a non-biblical context.
12:17<ln>yeah, judas it is, but at least i never remember hearing pieces of silver stressed in those stories.
12:17<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i heard of it, but i neither know wether 30 was the exact number nor would i automatically place this in biblical context
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12:20<Ammler>Roest: works, nice done, thank you :-)
12:22<Ammler>hmm, one little glitch: not possible to rise size horizontally.
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12:23<Roest>yea i see that now, probably because windows flags changed a bit since he wrote it
12:23<Roest>or i have no clue
12:24<Ammler>I guess, I should be able to find the size in the code, so I can change that self...
12:25<Roest>it's in line 524 in newgrf_gui.cpp
12:26<Roest>still can't see why it's not resizable in that direction
12:30<Roujin>i'd like to know the opinion of openttd devs regarding my menu jumping patch. dalestan argued in my thread that it's wrong to use signs for something like that. I think it's okay to do so, for some reasons I also wrote in my thread. Now, what do you think about it? (Belugas, Bjarni, peter1138, Rubidium)
12:31<Yexo>Roest: all your widget definitions have RESIZE_TO, which means move down, RESIZE_NONE -> stay, or RESIZE_BOTTOM -> make vertical bigger
12:31<Denyerec>Tell you what, on my screen OTTD sometimes feels like an eye test
12:32<Yexo>there are no widgets that are horizontal resizeable
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12:32<Roest>yea i'm checking something, he had the title at resize_none
12:34<Ammler>Roujin: in the meantime: I like that patch very much, did you read my question in your thread about?
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12:35<Ammler>it would be cool to have a button, sighting or something like that which you can click and the client jumps from one sign to the next...
12:35<Ammler>like you do with title
12:36<Ammler>sometimes I use follow train for simulating that :-)
12:37<Zuu>Someone on mac that can help out checking the keycode of the '+' key (not the one on the numpad but the other one). As help the keycode that OpenTTD uses for minus is 0x1B or 27 in decimal.
12:38<Zuu>One way to get it is possible to run synergy in debug level 1 and read it from its debug window.
12:40<Roujin>Ammler: I've read that, but in normal games, i think signs won't exactly be placed in a manner that such a sightseeing mode would make sense..
12:42<Ammler>it would fit #openttdcoop style :-)
12:42<Ammler>we tend to sign interesting things
12:42<Roujin>for example take any openttdcoop game ;) it will stay on the voting board for an eternity ;)
12:42<Roujin>yes, but signs are also used for communication there..
12:42<Zuu>Some filter would perhaps be usable.
12:43<Ammler>a customizeable filter should it be then
12:43<Ammler>I would filter to have a space or a "!" in front for coop games
12:44<Ammler>Roujin: other thing is also the possibility to move the start menu...
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12:45<Roujin>to be honest i don't want to go down into the string system and make a filter.. especially a configurable one O_O sorry..
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12:53<Roujin>Ammler: If you want to do something like this on a openttdcoop game, you could make it yourself by making a start sign: ##sightseeing _start and then ##sightseeing 01 to xx then ##sightseeing end. Then use the "cycle through signs" feature to make the tour.
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12:57<Ammler>Roujin: the "cycle through signs" feature could also be runnes ingame, you mean?
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12:58<Mwa>Is there a list of good NewGRFs to install?
12:59<@Belugas>you should check on forums, that question has been asked a lot
12:59<@Belugas>and it's all dependant toyour style
12:59*Mwa goes to have a look
13:02<Zuu>I wonders if macintosh differs between keypad plus and normal plus as I've failed to find any documentation that gives any keycode on the normal plus key.
13:02<Mwa>I can find out for you, if I can remember the program that shows keycodes
13:03<Zuu>There are many.
13:03<Zuu>synergy can do it.
13:03<Zuu>Google gave me a program that looked like some shareware stuff.
13:04<Mwa>I did have one at one point
13:05<Zuu>I've found this one:
13:06<Zuu>Synergy is an open source program to share keyboard between computers that can be used too, if you rather want to trust an open source program.
13:06<Mwa>There is
13:06<Mwa>Keys: ?+
13:06<Mwa>Key Code: 24 / 0x18
13:06<Mwa>Keys: ?+
13:06<Mwa>Key Code: 24 / 0x18
13:06<Patrick`_>macs are full of shareware for some reason
13:06<Zuu>what do you get on the - key?
13:06<Mwa>Keys: +
13:06<Mwa>Key Code: 69 / 0x45
13:06<Patrick`_>it's like mac programmers are too good
13:07<Mwa>First one is the keyboard, second is the keypad
13:07<Zuu>Mwa: openttd have 0x1B on the '-' key, can you confirm that?
13:08<Mwa> - as in -_ or the keypad?
13:08<Zuu>not on the keypad
13:09<Zuu>the -_ key
13:09<Mwa>27 / 0x1b
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13:09<Zuu>the ?+ is the non-keypad + key right?
13:09<Mwa>The ? displays as the shift symbol here
13:10<Zuu>Nice, then I hope there is not much more to fix on the zoom with +-key patch.
13:10<Mwa>The keypad - is 78 / 0x4e
13:11<Wolf01>Rubidium, yes, you can close the flyspray tast about the transparency features
13:11<Zuu>same as in openttd. Though the patch is about the non keypad +-key.
13:12<Zuu>Which currently is not implemented in neither driver.
13:12<Zuu>any driver*
13:15<Zuu>Mwa: In OpenTTD, zooming in with the +? key should work currently. Am I correct?
13:15<Zuu>(statement based on code)
13:15<Mwa>I'll just boot it
13:15<Denyerec>is there a Stabel v Nightly comparison document anywhere?
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13:15<Zuu>Mwa: Ok, thanks
13:16<Mwa>It also zooms with =
13:16<Zuu>yes, as they share the same keycode :)
13:16<Mwa>This is in 6.0, I haven't finished getting around to compiling the svn
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13:17<Zuu>0.6 is probably recent enough.
13:26<Zuu>Hmm, you don't want to have two diferent WKC_ codes that gives the same keycode on one platform (MAC), on the other hand currently on windows the +-key can not be used as the = key to zoom in. So we have a conflict here.
13:26<Zuu>Either we on driver level emulates = as + on windows and linux or we have to be aware that WKC_PLUS and WKC_EQUALS coresponds to the same keycode on one platform.
13:26<Zuu>Correction: emulate + as =
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13:48<Mwa>Does it matter if you apply a patch to a newer revision than it says it's for?
13:49<Patrick`_>if the patch applies successfully, try it and see
13:49<SmatZ>if it applies, then there is a chance it will work
13:49<Roujin>Mwa: how many revisions apart?
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14:02<Roest>roujin, whats the benefit of the traffic lights patch other than eyecandy?
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14:09<Roujin>hm, if you enable the setting that towns build their own traffic lights, you can see it as a new challenge in gameplay. towns will have traffic lights (if someone funds road construction or you use it together with my random road construction patch), so you'll try to route your trucks around towns and not through them..
14:10<Roujin>it does not improve speed of road traffic in any way, that's true - at least i haven't found any situation where it would.
14:11<Roujin>since road vehicles don't have to wait at junctions like it is in real life, and they can go through each other and so on...
14:11<Roest>i see thanks
14:11<Roest>so someone still uses trucks?
14:13<Fingon>busses mostly, to make towns grow
14:13<@Belugas>I do
14:13<@Belugas>for the little time that i test stuffs
14:14<ben_goodger>I do when I cannot be bothered to make a double-station train
14:14<planetmaker>Roest: trucks are nice for short-distance delivery
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14:16<extspotter>if anyone wants to join a game !UKRS is the one Im in
14:17<extspotter>its in 2001 at the moment
14:17<Roest>does it mean you are not using the UKRS?
14:19<Roujin>noooo, the world will end
14:19<Roujin>compile farm did not succeed as usually :O
14:21<@Belugas>that's only MorphOS
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14:22<Roujin>yes, but!!! isn't morphOS like the most important OS out there?
14:22<@Belugas>it is?
14:23<Roujin>no, only joking..
14:23<Zuu>hmm, how ugly is it to call a function on a case: -line, which takes the switch-var as argument? I guess that is pretty ugly, but usefull in some cases. (example:
14:23<@Belugas>anyne on Morphos who can fix it?
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14:23<Roujin>well i'm going away now anyways, so you won't be bothered with my weird humor :P
14:24<Roujin>see you :)
14:24<Wolf01>bye :)
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14:26<SmatZ>Zuu: is it a C code?
14:26<Zuu>SmatZ: C++
14:26<SmatZ>and well, I think it is ugly :)
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14:26<SmatZ>you are missing some ';' and keywords
14:27<Fingon>it looks original but i'm still trying to figure out what it does exactly :P
14:28<Zuu>SmatZ: I don't see any missing ;.. but I might be ;-blind :p
14:28<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12736 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: a (small) touch of coding style in viewport.cpp.
14:29<Zuu>Fingon: It removes the modifier bits before it compares the pressed key with a specific key-code. So that it does not matter if shift, alt, or any other modifier key is down. OpenTTD have many dublicate checks for with or without shift-key, and have completely missed the alt-key in many cases.
14:30<Mwa>Does svn update warn with conflicts?
14:30<SmatZ>Zuu: does it compile?
14:30<Zuu>SmatZ: I have not tried to do so :)
14:32<@Belugas>"return (plain_pressed_key == key_to_checkfor) ? pressed_key : INVALID_KEY;"
14:33<Fingon>"return (pressed_key & !MODIFIER_BITS == key_to_checkfor) ? pressed_key : INVALID_KEY;"
14:33<@Belugas>MSVC might not like it
14:33<Fingon>because of no () ?
14:34<@Belugas>Mwa : U = updated, G = merged, C = conflits
14:35<DaleStan>And !MODIFIER_BITS is just all-around bad. Are you quite sure you didn't mean ~MODIFIER_BITS?
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14:45<Zuu>DaleStan: I meant the not MODIFIER_BITS. Though I'm not used to bit the bit operators. So yes after checking up bit operators, it should possible be ~ instead of !
14:46<Zuu>Hmm, and I think I have to forget the whole idea as g++ does not seam to like the idea of a function call in a case-statement :(
14:47<Fingon>just make two switches, 1 switching on the original key_pressed value and one on the modified
14:47<@Rubidium>Zuu: function calls in switches happen quite often in openttd, so I suppose g++ supports them
14:48<DaleStan>! is logical; it turns "false" into "true" and all other values into "false". ~ is bit-wise; it inverts every bit.
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14:48<@Rubidium>or maybe it could be that debian uses a special build that supports calling functions from switches
14:48<Zuu>Rubidium: from switch (...) or from case: ... ?
14:49<DaleStan>I am unaware of any place where a function call isn't valid, unless it demands a compile-time constant.
14:49<@Rubidium>on both places where you have placed dots, assuming there's something before the colon
14:50<Fingon>i think he means case function(): instead of case 4 :
14:50<Zuu>my bad, case ... : it should be.
14:50<Zuu>Fingon: Yes.
14:50<@peter1138>ah, you can't d that
14:51<Zuu>Okay, as g++ just told me. :)
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14:54<@Rubidium>but it isn't specifically g++ that doesn't support it, it is (AFAIK) not part of the C++ specifications
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14:55<Fingon>idd, switches need constants so they can be compiled as a lookup table for speed
14:55<Zuu>yea. I've never seen it, and I just though it could be usefull in some key-related situations. But I've now found out it is not supported by C++. :)
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14:55<Zuu>And even if it would be allowed by C++ I would doubt it would be accepted into trunk because of the uglyness.
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14:56<Zuu>I mean if changing a switch-case to ifs is to ugly, then this would be just as ugly if not more.
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14:57<@Belugas>[14:53] <@Rubidium> but it isn't specifically g++ that doesn't support it, it is (AFAIK) not part of the C++ specifications <-- nor is it in Delphi either
14:58<SmatZ>I think Basic supports that
15:01<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12737 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Replace vector with a cut down class to allocate space as necessary. This avoids copying data around for vector's push_back() function.
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause2>let's rewrite all switches with "proper" virtual function calls ;)
15:09<@Bjarni>interesting idea
15:09<@Bjarni>but would it make sense to do so?
15:10<@Rubidium>yay... creating an object for *every* typed character
15:10<ln>of course not, it wasn't that way in the original game.
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15:11<Mwa>latest svn has visual glitches in 10.5
15:11<@Rubidium>well, show me an OpenTTD without visual glitches
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15:12<@peter1138>'latest' is not a version ;)
15:16<Zuu>I've brough the WKC_PLUS patch up to date and added support for Windows and MacOSX, but there is a major problem: WKC_PLUS and WKC_EQUALS equals to the same keycode on MacOSX, which could lead to future problems if someone is not aware of it.
15:17<Zuu>Another approach could be to make win32 and sdl driver send WKC_EQUALS when the non numpad '+' is pressed, to make it concistent over all platforms.
15:17<Zuu>Some input on prefered way is welcome.
15:18<@Bjarni><Mwa> latest svn has visual glitches in 10.5 <-- do you mean the head revision of OpenTTD or svn itself :p
15:19<@Bjarni>also telling what glitches would also help
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15:23<Mwa>Oh, parts of the track and train were flickering in and out of view. I'm not entirely sure what revision it was. I just used svn checkout
15:24<@Bjarni>I haven't seen that issue before
15:24<@Bjarni>or rather: I have never seen it
15:24<yorick>revision is in titlebar then
15:24<@Bjarni>and in the about window
15:25<Mwa>Uh, I removed it and backdated
15:26<@Bjarni>then we will not hear you whine anymore :P
15:27<@Bjarni>anyway I'm out of here
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15:28<Mwa>I was just pointing it out. By the way, what's enhanced_tunnel and why can I find nothing about it other than things that support it?
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15:28<yorick>oh noes
15:28<Mwa>well, NewGRFs that support it
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15:34<Zuu>Mwa: If I'm not mistaken enchanced_tunnel is a feature in TTDPatch that allow you to build track on tunnel entrances.
15:35<DaleStan>Mwa: Because you're not looking on the TTDPatch wiki.
15:36<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12738 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix (r12736): some sprites could be left unsorted
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16:01<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12739 /trunk/src/ (misc/smallvec.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for ParentSpriteToDraw.
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16:27<governor>How do i create planes>
16:28<@Rubidium>in a hangar?
16:28<governor>Do i need to build a hangar?
16:28<@Rubidium>or using a text editor, a proper drawing program and grfcodec
16:28<governor>I'm new to ttd
16:29<@Rubidium>governor: no, but if you want to build planes then you should build a hangar (though hangars are part of airports)
16:29<governor>In my airport construction dealy all i see are airports :[
16:29<@Rubidium>hangars are part of airports
16:30<@Rubidium>as in: if you build an airport, you get a hangar (or more) for free, except for some heli stuff
16:30<governor>when i was clicking it, it appeared on the far right side
16:30<governor>I couldnt see the new airplane button because the thing was way off
16:31<Roest>governor: this is a good resource
16:31<governor>yeah, i looked there for airports
16:31<governor>but like I am saying now, the new airplane button and stuff was hiding
16:32<Roest>those pesky little buggers always hiding
16:34<governor>are the bakewell lucketts supposed be to DC-9s and stuff?
16:35<Roest>you should get a newgrf with planes to get some realistic names
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16:37<Roest>is there a way to link two settings? like if i have a min and a max value and i want that min value always <= max
16:38<governor>i'm not the guy to ask
16:38<Roest>or can a user set any value there and i have to test for that later
16:38<Roest>i'm not asking you :)
16:38<@Rubidium>with a callback you can do that
16:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12740 /trunk/src/ (misc/smallvec.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for ChildScreenSpriteToDraw.
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16:42<Ammler>is there a new feature in trunk to set company pw automatically?
16:43<SmatZ>isn't it in 0.6?
16:43*SmatZ checks
16:43<Ammler>ah, I tested default company pw
16:43<Ammler>SmatZ: is ok
16:43<Ammler>my fault
16:43<SmatZ>ok :)
16:44<Ammler>it would be nice to set company pw over rcon
16:45<Ammler>but I guess, not possible anymore, because of the hash
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17:06<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12741 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: do not allocate the viewport drawer each time on the stack, but only once and reuse this.
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17:10<Nite>did anyone check brienettas server
17:10<Nite>it never syncs
17:11<Nite>you get dropped out imideatly after youlogged on.
17:11<Nite>not even time to make savegame.
17:11<Nite>since days
17:14<Nite>well ... cya
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17:22<dih>anybody here familiar with jsp?
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17:53<Roest>current savegame is still 93 right?
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18:00<+glx>Roest: yes
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18:12<Roest>is anyone using the modern tram set?
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18:16<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r12742 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (35 files in 6 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12673:12705.
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18:34<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r12743 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (36 files in 7 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12705:12741.
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20:38<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12744 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (38 files): [NoAI] -Fix: added a comment to all .hpp.sq that those files are autogenerated, and shouldn't be manually altered
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20:44<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12745 /trunk/src/ (20 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: a bit of naming conventions, introduce Is*DepotTile()
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21:40<Gekz>my train esploded
21:41<Gekz>due to "flooding"
21:41<Gekz>and then it sunk
21:41<Gekz>and I said "George, wtf."
21:48<@Belugas>what's the bad part? that you said George? or that your train exploded? or that it flooded or that it sunk?
21:49<@Belugas>saying George wtf is pretty bad indeed
21:58<governor>especially if you don't know a George...
22:03<@Belugas>but we all do know a George :)
22:05<Digitalfox_Home>hum.. George Bush? =0
22:10<Lakie>I think he means the newGrf authoer George.
22:11<Digitalfox_Home>Lakie I know ;), I was just joking with Belugas =0
22:11<Lakie>Wow, loads of warnings
22:12<Lakie>Mostly 'warning C4800: 'TileIndex' : forcing value to bool 'true' or 'false' (performance warning)'
22:12<@Belugas>Why the hell are you all still up???
22:12<Lakie>Was playing ut3
22:12<@Belugas>if only i coiuld be a student again...
22:13<@Belugas>i'm working at home and debugging ottd
22:13<@Belugas>fun fun fun
22:13<Lakie>Hmmm... 39 warnings
22:14<Lakie>Digitalfox_Home: which OS do you use?
22:14<Digitalfox_Home>Windows XP, Vista, Server 2008
22:15<Digitalfox_Home>And Fedora
22:15<Lakie>On Vista does my icon work ok?
22:15<Lakie>And on XP?
22:16<Digitalfox_Home>didn't test it there
22:16-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
22:16<Lakie>Hmm... should work as its just an extended icon
22:16<Lakie>form of the icon*
22:16<Digitalfox_Home>I agree
22:16*Lakie pokes Belugas.
22:17*Lakie likes his large icons.
22:17<Lakie>My usb pen has a cat with a fishing rod attached to it witha fish on the end
22:18<governor>Are the NDS binaries something that should not be talked about?
22:18<@Belugas>oh... icon...
22:18<@Belugas>oh fuck...
22:22<governor>I finally understand signals :)
22:28<Lakie>Don't worry too much about it Belugas, like I said its a cosmetic thing
22:28<Lakie>Worry about the code first. :(
22:28<Lakie>:) *
22:28<@Belugas>yeah, but i promised...
22:28<@Belugas>and wow!
22:28<@Belugas>200 k????
22:28-!-mindlesstux [~mindlesst@2001:470:88e0:53a:250:2cff:fe07:ff2c] has joined #openttd
22:28<Lakie>It is quite large, you do know having 256x256x32bit takes up quite some space!
22:29<Lakie>Well, actually it has 3 formats more, 96, 128 and 256
22:29*Lakie could do the maths
22:32<Lakie>39,814 + (3 headers) 3 * 16 + (96px) 36,864 + (128px) 65536 + (256px) 262,144=404406
22:33<Lakie>Expect... it doesn't add up to that for some reason
22:33<Lakie>adds upto halve
22:33<@Belugas>only two icons on there... is it normal?
22:34<Lakie>icons are basically stored as bitmaps
22:34<@Belugas>-IS + ARE
22:35<Lakie>Link, Belugas?
22:35*Lakie runs it through icongrabber
22:35<Lakie>Something I wrote which can break an icon file down
22:35<@Belugas>his quarry...
22:35<@Belugas>i can't make it built
22:36<@Belugas>i 've been fighting that beast for a while now
22:36<@Belugas>that and stupid work@work stuff
22:36<Lakie>Gah, why can't I make the figures add upto what it is, everything I work out tells me it should be larger
22:38<@Belugas>i give up
22:38<@Belugas>i'll go to sleep
22:38<@Belugas>too tired
22:38<@Belugas>see you tomorrow
22:38*Belugas is now gone
22:40<Lakie>This is really odd, the 256 icon itself should be larger than 200k and yet it fits happily with the rest under 200k
22:41*Lakie gives up
22:44<Lakie>Odd, its havle the size it should be so I'm happy
22:44<Lakie>(and it all works, so meh)
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23:24<governor>Is there a way to disable autosave?
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23:31<governor>Nevermind, I found it
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 17 00:00:40 2008