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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-23

---Logopened Wed Apr 23 00:00:02 2008
00:00-!-Osai^zZz`off is now known as Osai
00:01<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause3 http://www.thenetdude.com/myttd/feeders.png refresh
00:02<mynetdude>the circled area I want to keep cleared at all times except when trains are entering/exiting otherwise if a train enters while two trains are at each of their own respective stations, neither can get out and would cause a gridlock/reversal
00:03<Eddi|zuHause3>then you want to have presignals
00:03<Eddi|zuHause3>but they won't work with combined stations
00:03<mynetdude>also... anytime trains enter not just the feeder track trains that have another destination end up waiting at the stations on the mainline until the feeder trains clear that signal block
00:04<Eddi|zuHause3>have a waiting area for each station separately
00:04<mynetdude>what do you mean combined?
00:04<mynetdude>oh I guess I could setup waiting areas respectively
00:05<mynetdude>thats easy to do
00:05<mynetdude>just junctioning the existing tracks on the left side of the screenie is a tad bit complex
00:06<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, effective junctions are very difficult
00:06<mynetdude>indeed
00:06<mynetdude>well I'll figure that out at some point
00:06<mynetdude>next question is... I installed some newGRFs after I had already stared playing that game... can I still use the new GRFs?
00:07<Eddi|zuHause3>look at my junction from before, you notice a lot of signals inbetween
00:07<Eddi|zuHause3>depends on the kind of newgrfs
00:07<Eddi|zuHause3>trainsets for example should rather be loaded before start
00:07<mynetdude>well have any idea which ones won't work?
00:08<Eddi|zuHause3>station sets can be changed as you wish
00:08<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause3 what about signals?
00:08<Eddi|zuHause3>signals are graphical only, these are generally safe
00:08<mynetdude>I got the US types and my current game still uses the older (IMHO better/visible ones)
00:09<mynetdude>well I wouldn't say older but I suppose brittish kinds... they are bigger it seems
00:09<Eddi|zuHause3>the ones in the picture are based on german signals
00:09<Eddi|zuHause3>although the ones from the DBSet look a little better from the back
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00:10<Eddi|zuHause3>british style signals are used when you have "drive on left" enabled
00:11<mynetdude>oh ok
00:11<mynetdude>the default ones is what I'm talking about for right side, so that would be the German style
00:11<Eddi|zuHause3>yes
00:11<mynetdude>in any case the default semophores are more visible ingame than the US types
00:12<mynetdude>I looked at your screenie more carefully and noticed your signal structure is a bit different than I would have anticipated
00:12<Eddi|zuHause3>my junction goes quite closely to the limits of presignals
00:12<mynetdude>for example mainline rightmost track going from bottom to top you have two semophores adjacent
00:12<Eddi|zuHause3>not all situations are handled correctly
00:13<mynetdude>ah
00:14<Eddi|zuHause3>the lower signal of the two you are referring to is the old start of the junction, i have rebuilt it a little, and left the signal ther
00:14<Eddi|zuHause3>e
00:15<mynetdude>oic
00:15<mynetdude>so new train sets will not be loaded for existing games?
00:16<Eddi|zuHause3>it'll most likely cause issues
00:16<mynetdude>:(
00:17<Eddi|zuHause3>i would advise to run a "resetengines" command from the ingame control
00:17<Eddi|zuHause3>and selling all existing trains
00:18<mynetdude>sell all existing first then reset?
00:20<Eddi|zuHause3>"resetengines" affects the properties of the engines available for building
00:20<mynetdude>oh ok
00:23<mynetdude>hey Eddi|zuHause3 is there a way to get ottd to change the default industry building type/look (I downloaded some industry buildings, but you can only add them by buying the industry)
00:24<Eddi|zuHause3>industries should _really_ be only changed for new games
00:25<Eddi|zuHause3>especially if they include new cargo types
00:25<Eddi|zuHause3>otherwise, you will not get paid anything for these cargos
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00:26<mynetdude>ah ok
00:26<mynetdude>well then I won't bother for now
00:26<mynetdude>but is there a process for changing/adding industries to be automatically built? some of them cost 1.4 million just to build
00:27<Eddi|zuHause3>industries appear randomly sometimes
00:27<Eddi|zuHause3>and if you add the grf before starting the game, the new industries will get created by the world generator
00:31<mynetdude>thats what I mean
00:32<mynetdude>but if I add the new GRF then play an existing game the world generator will add those new industries and those would be messed up?
00:32*mynetdude is just making sure I understand, this is a huge learning curve
00:32<mynetdude>so take all the time you need :) no rush
00:33*mynetdude likes your layout :)
00:33<Eddi|zuHause3>settings made outside of a game will not affect loading an old game
00:33<hylje>in most cases
00:34<Eddi|zuHause3>they will only affect creating a new game
00:34<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje: well, assuming he has no games prior to 0.5.0 ;)
00:34<mynetdude>I realize that, thats an ify... but what I am asking is will the new industries in the newGRFS cause any issues by the world creator?
00:34<mynetdude>oh nope no 0.5.0
00:35<mynetdude>this is fresh, but we're talking about a 060 game
00:35<Eddi|zuHause3>mynetdude: the world generator will know how to handle new industry types
00:38<mynetdude>in an existing game? Will I get paid for those?
00:38<mynetdude>ok now I have a signalling problem... trains are instantly turning around and are meeting up... so a gridlock essentially
00:39<Eddi|zuHause3>the world generator is never run for an existing game
00:40<mynetdude>oh, ok
00:40<mynetdude>so I will not get the new industries in the newGRFs for the existing game then
00:41<Eddi|zuHause3>just don't change industries during the game
00:45<mynetdude>oh ok
00:59<mynetdude>I'm starting to see the trains meet at signals head to head as if the train going one direction leaving the signal block didn't know a train was already on that track/block yet it could have selected a track to its right or left but didn't, any way to solve that?
01:01<Eddi|zuHause3>depending on setup, there are different ways to solve that
01:02<Eddi|zuHause3>one more complex than the other
01:02<Eddi|zuHause3>typically you avoid 2way signals as best as possible
01:03<Eddi|zuHause3>and then different combinations of presignals
01:06<mynetdude>well I wanted two ways on all 3 tracks which includes mainline and sidings on each side, however it seems that MOST of the time it automatically picks the rightmost/closest track that gets it around the one being used although the departing train has already left the station decides to pick the mainline when another train is about to stop I mean from an AI/computer standpoint it could have picked any of the other two tracks open
01:07<mynetdude>sure I could put one ways on the right and left forcing single direction on the siding but then that limits the flow of traffic and then forces trains to follow each other
01:09<mynetdude>the smoothest way is to have any two trains going either the same direction or opposite direction while a third train clears the station mainline or potentially another 3rd train also going the same direction as the two whichever is faster will get through first and it doesn't take long (faster than queing behind trains)
01:14<mynetdude>anyway
01:26<mynetdude>I'm using my first entry/exit signal... they don't work perfectly but they work
01:28<mynetdude>grr the exit signal is red even though a train has already cleared the next signal block
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01:33<mynetdude>bah nevermind
01:33<mynetdude>had an extra set of exit sigs
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04:23<Roest>morning
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06:40<odin>hey!
06:41<odin>i need some help, i have to know how to transfer some merchandise from a truck to a train station?
06:42<planetmaker>build them immediately adjacent so that it is one station
06:43<odin>thanks a lot!
06:43<odin>i'll try it now
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06:44<Noldo>and use unload or transfer order if the station won't accept it
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06:49<odin>It's good, station accept it
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07:28<Ammler>Hello, changing sonwline should also change houses with or without snow, this happen at least in TTDP, is that a bug in OTTD or a missing feature?
07:29<Noldo>what is the difference?
07:29<Ammler>which category in FS :-)
07:29<@peter1138>should work with a grf
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07:30<Ammler>peter1138: I am trying with NACity and trunk, will test it with 0.6.0
07:30<@peter1138>without a grf, snowy and non-snowy buildings are actually different IDs, iirc
07:31<Ammler>should TTRS support it?
07:31<@peter1138>no idea
07:32<Eddi|zuHause3>alpine supports it
07:33<Ammler>does someone know how to fast forward TTDP?
07:33<Roest>get a faster comp
07:34<Eddi|zuHause3>that won't work
07:36<Ammler>"q" and "e"
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07:38<Yexo>peter1138: can you have a look at http://www.student.tue.nl/t.i.marinussen/subsidy.txt
07:38<Ammler>peter1138: yes
07:38<Yexo>it's a patch for noai, but it needs some changes to economy.cpp
07:39<Ammler>default houses will be sonwi depended on what clima it has while building
07:39<Ammler>same in TTDP
07:39<Yexo>the question is now, are these ok or should the subsidies system be rewritten first
07:39<@peter1138>nice 404 page
07:40<Yexo>sorry, http://www.student.tue.nl/V/t.i.marinussen/subsidy.txt
07:40<@peter1138>ai? i don't touch ai
07:40<Yexo>it's not about ai, it's about the uint16 sid in economy.cpp
07:41<@peter1138>...
07:41<ln>404 with a redirect, what an oxymoron.
07:41<@peter1138>looks like a big patch about AI to me
07:41<@peter1138>ln: good isn't it
07:41<Yexo>http://www.student.tue.nl/V/t.i.marinussen/economy_cpp_diff.txt then
07:42<@peter1138>still has AI all over it
07:42<Yexo>to be precise those lines: for (uint sid = 0; sid < lengthof(_subsidies); sid++) {
07:43<@peter1138>you could just do s - _subsidies to get the index... if you really needed the index
07:43<@peter1138>can't s just be passed? heh
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07:44<Yexo>it can't
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause3>why not call it .diff when it's a diff?
07:49<Roest>it's a bit shy, so lets not call it that
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07:50<Yexo>because the webserver is badly configured, and it won't let you view a diff in your browser
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07:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12847 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Cleanup: Identing and variable scope
07:59<Progman>"fios" as in 'first in out second"? *g*
08:00<Eddi|zuHause3>"fuck i'm out [of] sourcefilenames"
08:01<@peter1138>*INDENTING* sigh
08:02<Noldo>peter1138: classic
08:03<Eddi|zuHause3>it's like the reverse of the mistake everybody else makes ;)
08:03<ln>peter1138: do you know of any VCS which has version control for commit messages?
08:04<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12848 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h misc_gui.cpp): -Cleanup/Codechange: Use correct variable types, don't prefix with _ for non-globals, and use implicit enum numbering.
08:04<Eddi|zuHause3>spring cleanup?
08:04<@peter1138>i was just looking in there for something else
08:05<@peter1138>and noticed it
08:05<@peter1138>"int mode" ... wtf is that...
08:05<@peter1138>"byte type" ...
08:05<ln>how about changing the globals prefix from _ to something sane in the whole project?
08:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12849 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/squirrel_export.sh: [NoAI] -Fix: when .hpp.sq doesn't exists, don't run diff (tnx to Yexo)
08:06<@peter1138>ln: cos every file would be changed ;)
08:06<ln>peter1138: is that a problem?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause3>it's the fun for patchers ;)
08:06<@peter1138>let's use __
08:06<ln>peter1138: i usually take svn update every few weeks, and seems like about half the files are changed every time anyway.
08:07<Eddi|zuHause3>half < all
08:07<ln>3 * half > all
08:07<Eddi|zuHause3>plus, you can "single step" through the updates and have only few files changed each time
08:08<ln>let's use g_ or Bjarni_ or $
08:08<Noldo>maybe few globals at the time
08:08<Eddi|zuHause3>$ is so basic-ish ;)
08:09<@peter1138>A$="HELLO WORLD"
08:09<@peter1138>PRINT A$
08:09<@peter1138>:o
08:10*Roest is scared by this talk
08:10*teeg starts talking in Perl
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, basic scares people
08:11<Eddi|zuHause3>some basic handbooks are on The Index in germany
08:14<Eddi|zuHause3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesprüfstelle_für_jugendgefährdende_Medien
08:16<Ammler>I am not able to swich off default houses, shouldn't that work with TTRS parameter 0?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause3>TTRS had parameters for snowline, default houses, roads and bridges, but i don't remember the order
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08:20<Ammler>its here: http://users.skynet.be/florisjan/ttd/ttrs.html#pd , but doesn't work
08:21<Ammler>well, it might also be possible that not every house has support for changing snowline?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause3>i haven't used TTRS extensively... the houses look ugly sometimes
08:22<Maedhros>Ammler: disabling the original houses works fine here. have you started a new game or added it to an existing one?
08:22<Maedhros>because it'll only affect new houses that get built, not existing houses
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08:23<Maedhros>houses don't have to have support for changing snowline, just the snowline in general
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08:28<Ammler>Maedhros: could it be possible, it disables only generating while playing
08:28<Ammler>but they are generated for start?
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08:30<Maedhros>no. house building at the start of the game and during the game use exactly the same mechanism
08:32<Ammler>hmm, yeah, I get also still new default buildings
08:32<Ammler>http://www.myimg.de/?img=PreeddownEndTransport1963270.png
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08:34<Eddi|zuHause3>you are doing it wrong :p
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08:37<Eddi|zuHause3>http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/04/06/funny-pictures-bbc-budget-gets-slashed/
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08:44<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: can you prepar a save with working snowline?
08:44<yorick>isn't it wrong using PlayTrainLeaveSound for setting an animation trigger?
08:44<@peter1138>no. shush.
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08:45<yorick>neva!
08:45<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: i have old alpine savegames here
08:45<yorick>I'm trying to fix that manual train leave doesn't trigger animation change bug thing
08:46<@peter1138>yorick: move it to Vehicle::LeaveStation?
08:46<@peter1138>that should always work
08:46<@peter1138>just needs an additional check for vehicle type
08:46<yorick>you're the dev here
08:47<@peter1138>you're the one trying to fix it
08:47<yorick>you're the one that caused it
08:47<yorick>and you're the one that's able to fix it sooner
08:47<Ammler>alpine seems to change default houses, that works as far as I know
08:47<@peter1138>nope, i'm not able to test anything
08:47<yorick>but you did remove your engine pool patch from the web
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08:50<Maedhros>Ammler: you can't change original houses, you can only override them with new houses that have the same graphics
08:50<Ammler>yeah, thats what alpine does, I assume
08:50<Maedhros>yup
08:52<@peter1138>yorick: as you can't be bothered, can you test http://fuzzle.org/o/leavetrigger.diff
08:54<yorick>IsTileType(this->tile, MP_STATION) <-- what do you think it should be loading at otherwise?
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09:00<Maedhros>a rail tile, if it was too long for the station and turned around before leaving
09:01<Maedhros>or a bridge, tunnel or possibly a road if it happens to be on a level crossing
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09:02<yorick>argh...darn features!
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09:05<yorick>hmm...I better supply the station instead of the tile :)
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09:06<@peter1138>it needs the same tile as it started out with, really
09:06<@peter1138>that is a platform trigger, iirc
09:07<yorick>ah well...I'll supply both tile and station
09:07<@peter1138>heh, technically it could also be a station tile of another station
09:08<yorick>}|
09:09<Maedhros>peter1138: i suppose you could also check v->last_station_visited to solve that one?
09:10<yorick>v->last_station_visited doesn't guarantee you have the station with animation?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd say just make sure the trigger is called for each vehicle in the consist
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3>both on entering as on exiting the station
09:12<Ammler>I assume, those houses aren't default, they are TTRS without nosnow support.
09:12<Maedhros>yorick: yes it does. it also means you can check that if the current tile is a station tile, it belongs to the right station
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09:13<yorick>what if 2 stations are placed next to eachother using ajacent stations?
09:13<yorick>tile belongs to other stations than where the train is loading at?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause3>if they are adjacent they are still different
09:13<yorick>(assuming it reversed someway; manual reverse?)
09:14<Eddi|zuHause3>that would be fixed by calling for each vehicle
09:14<Eddi|zuHause3>because after reversing, the train still occupies the same space
09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>meaning both the right and the "wrong" station
09:15<yorick>hmm...is current trunk known to fail compiling?
09:15<yorick>G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp: In function `char* FiosBrowseTo(const FiosItem*)':
09:15<yorick>G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp:156: error: duplicate case value
09:15<yorick>G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp:117: error: previously used here
09:15<Maedhros>apparently, though it's working fine here
09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>it's peter1138's fault ;)
09:16<@peter1138>gah
09:16<yorick>your fault!
09:16<yorick>r12848
09:16<@peter1138>it's a windows issues, so fuck off :)_
09:17<Gekz>:o
09:17<Gekz>peter1138: no u
09:17<hylje>YES U
09:17<perkrith>NO U
09:17<yorick>openttd should compile under windows!
09:17<Gekz>NO U
09:17<yorick>stfu!
09:17-!-perkrith is now known as rebry
09:17<Gekz>everything should compile under windows (sic)
09:17<hylje>what an insightful argument we had here
09:18<Gekz>crosscompile for windows using linux
09:18<Gekz>the perfect fucking waste of linux
09:18<yorick>I'm using mingw
09:18<hylje>it avoids the need for actual windows development machines
09:18<yorick>compile farm!
09:18<Gekz>lol
09:18<Rubidium>yorick: is *does* compile under Windows *if* you have set up the environment correctly
09:18<Gekz>I love esperanto
09:19<Gekz>have a Ĝ!
09:19<yorick>Rubidium: it *did* compile *before* 12847
09:20<Rubidium>it still will if you set up the environment correctly
09:20<yorick>blame kaan! he set up my enviroment
09:20<Gekz>Blame jewsus
09:20<Gekz>and the narrivity
09:21<yorick>and what *should* I *change*?
09:21<Yexo>Rubidium: are you sure? looking at the code it just is a duplicate case value
09:21<Rubidium>Yexo: yes, I'm sure
09:21<Yexo>#elif defined(WIN32) || defined(__OS2__)
09:21<Yexo> case FIOS_TYPE_DRIVE: sprintf(path, "%c:" PATHSEP, item->title[0]); break;
09:21<Yexo>#endif
09:21<Yexo>and later case FIOS_TYPE_DRIVE:
09:21<Rubidium>you just need a cross compiler that compiles for unix on windows and it'll compile happily
09:21<+glx>lol
09:22<SpComb>Fiber Optic Service!
09:22*yorick goes with Yexo
09:23<Gekz>Rubidium: lol
09:23<Gekz>pass the buck and a half
09:23<yorick>sprintf, gah
09:24<+glx>you are very slow to fix things :)
09:24<yorick>you effectively disabled all win32 and OS2 users at one revision
09:24<yorick>I can't test things
09:24<+glx>it took me 2 minutes to have a compilable trunk
09:24<cjk>well, to promote linux.
09:24<Yexo>http://www.student.tue.nl/V/t.i.marinussen/fiosdiff.txt fixes compiling on cygwin
09:24<yorick>404 won't fix anything
09:25<Yexo>yorick: try a refresh?
09:25<yorick>ah
09:26<yorick>will also work for mingw
09:26*Maedhros feels he should point out at this point that trunk is never *guaranteed* to compile perfectly
09:26<yorick>thank you :)
09:27<yorick>Maedhros is right, but this looks deliberate :p
09:27<Gekz>it was.
09:27<Gekz>and you know it
09:27<Gekz>BUT
09:27<Gekz>cut the bitching
09:27<Gekz>and fix it
09:27<Gekz>lol
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09:36<yorick>http://pastebin.com/d317e23b3 <-- there :)
09:36<yorick>tested and working
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09:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r12850 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r12848): compilation was broken for some platforms
09:37<yorick>thank you for that fios fix
09:37<+glx>have fun with the conflict ;)
09:38<yorick>what conflict?
09:38<+glx>my fix is not the Yexo's one :)
09:39<yorick>argh!
09:40<Yexo>glx: it looks the same, but what conflict?
09:40<yorick>peter1138: http://pastebin.com/d317e23b3
09:41<+glx>I changed stuff around #if defined ... #endif
09:42<Yexo>so did I, only you removed FIOS_TYPE_INVALID completely
09:42<Yexo>anyway, what matters is that is compiles again
09:42<+glx>no FIOS_TYPE_INVALID is still present
09:43<Yexo>I see, sorry, it is indeed quite different
09:44<Yexo>I used svn diff -r 12850 instead of svn diff -r 12849:12850
09:45<SmatZ>Yexo: you can use svn diff -c 12850 instead
09:46<Yexo>and learned something again :)
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09:53<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... i need real presignals on top of yapp
09:53<@peter1138>why?
09:53-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Enzulks!]
09:53<Eddi|zuHause3>for the feeling ;)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it would have 2 semantics: 1) when a train approaches a presignal, try to reserve a track from the next mainsignal (end of reserved track)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause3>2) if that fails, slow down while you approach the red mainsignal
09:56<Eddi|zuHause3>presignals are not safe waiting points
09:57<Eddi|zuHause3>in a next step, these could be used to enforce breaking distance
09:57<@peter1138>so basically it tries an early reservation?
09:57<Eddi|zuHause3>braking
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, a presignal indicates the state of the next mainsignal, so at this point it must be clear if that mainsignal is going to be passed (i.e. reserved)
09:58<Roest>Put it up for internet advertisement. Don't forget to open your ports too! ---- What are ports?
09:59<Eddi|zuHause3>@openttd ports
09:59<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause3: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
09:59<Fingon>ports are like stations but for boats
09:59<Roest>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37264
10:01<Eddi|zuHause3>ports are what opens an internet service to the public, typically, all ports are closed by default by the firewall and/or router
10:03<@Belugas>Fingon, it is called harbour, not port. In french, indeed it is "port", but not in english (or my dictionnary is wrong, which it can be)
10:04<Eddi|zuHause3>"port" as in "seaport" and "airport"
10:04<Maedhros>or the Port of Dover
10:05<Maedhros>they're different things really - a harbour is an area of calm water, while a port is where the ship loads
10:05*Belugas throws his dict. in basket
10:05<Maedhros>hehe
10:05<Fingon>lol
10:07<Eddi|zuHause3>dict.leo.org translates both "port" and "harbour" with "Hafen"
10:07<Eddi|zuHause3>while "port" has a lot of other meanings
10:07<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause3: "port" is a "Hafen"
10:08*Maedhros may be wrong, but that's the way i've always thought of them ;)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause3>well, seafaring nations may have a more differentiated view on that ;)
10:09<Celestar>well, port is more used in the US, while the UK prefers harour, right?
10:09<Maedhros>come to think of it, a port probably is a harbour, but a harbour (e.g. a natural one) may not be a port
10:10<@Belugas>... me and my stupid comments...
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>well, english has lots of objects which have both a french-derived and a german-derived name
10:11<Maedhros>Celestar: i dunno, really. we tend to use port and dock interchangably
10:11<Eddi|zuHause3>harbour could be related to german "Herberge"
10:12<Maedhros>... except for things like the docks in London which are not in harbours since they're on the river Thames
10:12<Maedhros>Belugas: no, this is really interesting to think about, actually :-D
10:13<@Belugas>ha...
10:13<@Belugas>ok then, enjoy :)
10:18<@Belugas>so docks is just the facility where boats are boarding?
10:19<@Belugas>-is+are
10:19<@Belugas>-y+ies
10:19<Celestar>Belugas: try again
10:19<Celestar>:P
10:19<@Belugas>-old keyboard+new keyboard
10:19<Sacro>Celestar: there's a difference between a port and a habour
10:19<Sacro>and a dock :p
10:19<Celestar>Sacro: yeah. which once again proves that english teachers have no clue
10:19<+glx>and a marina?
10:20<Sacro>right
10:20<Sacro>a harbour tends to be the walled off bit surrounding and protecting the port
10:20<Fingon>and a haven
10:20<Sacro>a marina tends to be pleasurecraft (teehee)
10:20<Sacro>rather than commercial stuff
10:21<Fingon>don't forget an anchorage
10:21<Celestar>a Haven is Heaven spelt wrongly :P
10:21<Sacro>Fingon: wtf
10:21<@Belugas>or a nice girl serving drinks in light clothings
10:21<@Belugas>(marina...)
10:21*Sacro siughs
10:21<Fingon>lol Belugas
10:21<Sacro>a port tends to be just the bit where the boats load/unload
10:21<Sacro>such as Dover, Hull :p
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... not-signalling a station is very unnatural
10:32<@peter1138>indeed
10:33<Yorick>what error does bottd on vista give?
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10:34<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know anyone who has vista
10:35<@peter1138>i do
10:35<@peter1138>but i've not tried bottd
10:36<Yorick>xD
10:36<Yorick>combination of you two?
10:36<cjk>bottd?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think there is anything to combine
10:36<Yorick>buildopenttd
10:37<Yorick>I've submitted a vista fix recently, and I'm curious whether it actually works or not
10:38<Yorick>msys appeared to have a problem with reserving memory on vista, and also on every system I visit :p, but rebasing msys-1.0.dll worked for me
10:41<Yorick>winavr also had a problem with vista
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10:42<Eddi|zuHause3>vista has a problem with vista
10:42<Yorick>ah, norman antivirus is a problem for winxp with msys
10:42<Gekz>norman
10:42<Gekz>lol
10:43<Yorick>disabling defender under vista might also fix the bottd problem there, but a rebased msys-1.0.dll is more durable
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10:45<Yorick>kapersky also makes it fail, list is growing
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10:51<Yorick>pff...should I make a new flyspray item for an already fixed bug which isn't included?
10:52<Rubidium>what bug?
10:53<Rubidium>and when was it fixed?
10:53<Yorick>the manual train skip order doesn't stop station animation?
10:53<Yorick>which gets fixed by http://pastebin.com/d317e23b3
10:55<Eddi|zuHause3>Yorick: you can also add patches to flyspray
10:55*Yorick knows
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10:56<Gekz>http://qdb.us/159565
11:08<@Belugas>Should?? or DOES?
11:09<Yorick>as far as I checked, it does
11:09<Yorick>but feel free
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause3>why does openttd use 6% CPU when it is paused and minimised?
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11:16<+glx>redraws?
11:16<Maedhros>Eddi|zuHause3: drawing, possibly (it doesn't know whether the window is minimised or not)
11:16<planetmaker>But it knows pause mode?
11:16<Maedhros>well, yes
11:17<Maedhros>but that's a function of the game. minimising the window is a function of the window manager
11:17<@peter1138>it shouldn't have anything to redraw
11:17<@peter1138>nothing should be marked dirty
11:17<@peter1138>palette animation on?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause3>might be
11:17<@peter1138>that would do it
11:18<Eddi|zuHause3>unpausing causes a lot of swapping...
11:18<Gekz>o.o
11:18<Eddi|zuHause3>animation appears to be off
11:18<Yorick>palette animation when paused?
11:20<@peter1138>shut up
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>unpaused uses 80% even though the map is almost empty (due to a previous survey i assume this is due to ECS)
11:20<@peter1138>you'll ruin my theories
11:20<@peter1138>in what version?
11:21<Yorick>what os?
11:21<@peter1138>r12844 might be of interest...
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>older than that
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>but with a few patches
11:21<Yorick>that's the station animation not every frame check?
11:21<@peter1138>no
11:23<Maedhros>i'm off. see you later
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause3>what kind of functions are called when paused?
11:23<Roujin>g'day
11:23<Gekz>no Roujin
11:23<Gekz>you do not say that
11:23<Eddi|zuHause3>it should only be interface functions (mouse updates, keyboard presses)
11:23<Gekz>you are not australian
11:23<Yorick>of, industry
11:23<Gekz>-_-!
11:24<Yorick>and if build while pause, also command ticks?
11:24<Roujin>i say what i feel like saying :P
11:24<Gekz>Roujin: its like me saying moin
11:24<Gekz>its not right
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11:24<Yorick>you could check, eddi, somewhere at openttd.cpp
11:24<Eddi|zuHause3>Yorick: more likely in the video driver
11:25<Yorick>the functions that are called, I mean
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i'll check around a little later
11:26<Roujin>Eddi: GameLoop() in openttd.cpp
11:26<Roujin>StateGameLoop() is called inside of GameLoop()
11:26-!-odin [~odin@crous-heliotropes-214-229.u-strasbg.fr] has joined #openttd
11:26<Roujin>StateGameLoop() returns if paused
11:27<Roujin>so basically the stuff in GameLoop is called while paused, and the stuff in StateGameLoop isn't
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11:33<Sacro>orudge: put your purple banana away
11:33-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
11:33<Yorick>I'm fixing FS#1890
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11:37<mynetdude>I had so much fun yesterday after all the help you guys gave me, and I've even learned how to use presigs with entry/exit for dual two platformed stations thanks all... you mind if I ask more....
11:37<Yorick>nope
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11:37<mynetdude>:P Yorick
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11:37<dragonhorseboy>heh :)
11:37<Rubidium>you already did ask something more...
11:37<mynetdude>oh duy
11:38<mynetdude>*duh
11:38*mynetdude needs a new yardstick for self
11:38<Gekz>yardstick!
11:38*Gekz throws chopsticks
11:38<dragonhorseboy>gekz :p
11:38<Gekz>dragonhorseboy: why are you .. oh
11:38<Gekz>you are canadian
11:38<mynetdude>well some teachers use it to get classroom attentention by cracking it on a student's desk
11:38<Gekz>thats haxing
11:38*Yorick needs to slap normal virus control for detecting a virus in openttd.exe which I just created myself
11:39<mynetdude>nope
11:40<mynetdude>well anyway I converted conventional rail to electric and I've got an odd issue... all the signals worked fine before conversion and even after the conversion they still worked until trains started showing up causing one of the trains to bounce back and forth
11:40<dragonhorseboy>yorick and why are you making a virus? :p
11:40<Yorick>I'm not, I'm just trying to compile
11:40<Yorick>and it fails
11:40<Rubidium>mynetdude: sounds like you missed a piece
11:40<Yorick>because norman removes my files before it manages to strip
11:41<Roest>maybe some tile didnt get converted
11:41<mynetdude>hmm how can I check?
11:41<Rubidium>by converting it again?
11:41<Gekz>Yorick: solution, use a real OS
11:41<Gekz>fscking
11:41<Roest>just take the conversion tool and dragndrop over that area
11:41<mynetdude>the tracks ARE open so it should go right through
11:41<mynetdude>I'll try again, but pretty sure its already covered
11:42<Roest>or take a steam or diesel engine and see if it drives through
11:42<Yorick>msys could be compiling a virus into it
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11:44<mynetdude>ok why the hell does the game randomly make certain track tiles disappear?
11:44<Roest>lol
11:44<mynetdude>I've noticed every now and then I have to reconnect track sections and that explains why some of my trains are lost
11:44<Gekz>lol
11:44<Gekz>mynetdude: you have disasters on
11:44<mynetdude>is that supposed to happen?
11:44*dragonhorseboy thinks mynet is making no sense
11:44<Roest>your evil twin with the bulldoze tool
11:44<dragonhorseboy>:p
11:45<mynetdude>oh... damn thats dumb
11:45<Gekz>and the ufo is blowing them up
11:45<Gekz>the ufo is gay
11:45<mynetdude>I like disasters... but I'd like to know about it
11:45<mynetdude>thanks... :P
11:45<dragonhorseboy>mynet ever heard of a thing called "news" .. quit disabling it
11:45<mynetdude>too bad I can't turn it off for the game...
11:45<dragonhorseboy>:p
11:45<mynetdude>dragonhorseboy I get that, but not for the tracks
11:45<dragonhorseboy>mynet...then you don't have it on
11:45<mynetdude>just for the trucks and industries that blow up
11:46<Gekz>mynetdude: disasters are only the UFO afaik
11:46<Gekz>oh
11:46<Gekz>and the industries
11:46-!-Cap_J_L_Picard [~ewanm89@s15236362.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:46<dragonhorseboy>because the disaster news DOES tell you when the coal mine blew out or a ufo crashed
11:46<dragonhorseboy>simple as it ;)
11:46<mynetdude>dragonhorseboy yes it does, but it doesn't tell you when your piece of track isn't connected anymore
11:46<dragonhorseboy>mynet...because you're supposed to look at the news when it pop up?
11:47<Gekz>klol
11:47<Yorick>argh...norman virus control finds a virus in lastest trunk
11:48<dragonhorseboy>yorick..does it actually even triggers fdisk or griffin av at all?
11:48<dragonhorseboy>if not then I think 'norman virus control' whatever it is is crap
11:48<dragonhorseboy>;)
11:48*dragonhorseboy hehs
11:50<Yorick>I'm can't change it :(
11:51<Yorick>I*
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11:53<Tefad>OF-THE-U-S-S-EN-TER-PRISE
11:53<Tefad>make it so m-m-m-make it so
11:53<dragonhorseboy>tefad...you're weird
11:53<dragonhorseboy>:p
11:53<Yorick>any online virus scanners known?
11:53<Tefad>you know not of the picard song?!?!
11:54<Tefad>online virus scanners.. didn't those die off?
11:54<Roest>captain jean luc picard!!!!
11:54<Roest>http://youtube.com/watch?v=IURfntimnlA
11:54<Yorick>I know one, but forgot its url
11:54<mynetdude>dang almost 1.5M by 1975 in my game
11:54<Tefad>at least i'm not the only crazy one here.
11:54<Yorick>Roest, you're blind! don't tell me your computer describes movie
11:54<Roest>adavanced technology
11:54<mynetdude>Tefad, you a trekkie?
11:54<Roest>-a
11:55<Tefad>http://youtube.com/watch?v=ddEIICbllAI
11:55<Tefad>not really, but i like to watch it
11:55<Tefad>i don't know much trivia ; )
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11:56<mynetdude>Tefad, if you're not a trekkie yet then check out iftcommand.com you never know hanging out with a bunch of trekkies might make you look weirder... already does to me :)
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11:56<Tefad>ehh i don't do well on social sites : )
11:56<Tefad>i prefer realtime, such as IRC
11:56<@peter1138>patrick stewart rocks
11:57<Yorick>"Trojan found: Tibs.gen199"
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12:00<Tefad>posted wrong video before : ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=X6oUz1v17Uo
12:01<Yorick>omg...I'm blessed with the only virus scanner which reports a virus inside openttd
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12:02<Tefad>nice
12:03<Yorick>it doesn't in older revisions, but if a nightly will come out which also reports a virus...
12:03<Yorick>*booooom* no popularity anymore
12:03*Yorick fantasy has
12:03<mynetdude>Tefad its not just a social site, its a in your face in person (no not really in your face) but its like a "club" if you want to call it that... but anyway :) I do like real time, IRC
12:03<Tefad>uhm ok..
12:04<Tefad>i'll stick to watching random ST episodes during the summer with my friend
12:04<mynetdude>:D that works
12:04<Tefad>so far we've tackled TNG and VOY
12:04<Tefad>this summer is DS9
12:04<mynetdude>VOY is ok, TNG is the best
12:04<Tefad>yeah can't go wrong with TNG
12:04<mynetdude>some of DS9s aren't so bad though
12:04<Tefad>eventually i'd like to watch TOS and ENT
12:04<mynetdude>its the newer ones ugh...
12:05<Tefad>DS9 is like a soap opera in space i hear
12:05<mynetdude>I think its ENT I don't like... never heard of TOS
12:05<Tefad>TOS.. the original series fool
12:05<Tefad>learn your trekese
12:05<mynetdude>Tefad yeah I guess DS9 is like soap opera but there are some good episodes not many
12:06<Tefad>i think the episodes with the ship are good, eh?
12:06<mynetdude>Tefad, yeah I know it, fool is my middle name.. I do learn I don't watch ST all the time but knowing what series are what is not hard to learn and I'll get it
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12:06<mynetdude>Tefad I don't remember much of DS9
12:07<Tefad>k, i've only watched a couple of episodes when i was little
12:07<Tefad>it turned me off of star trek : (
12:07<Tefad>i didn't even know voyager existed!
12:07<Tefad>until my friend was like "want to watch star trek voyager" i'm like.. "is that some new movie i don't know about?"
12:07<Tefad>then he's all LOL n00b.
12:08<Tefad></netspeak>
12:08<mynetdude>yeah thats understandable as seeing how poorly they did DS9 (IMHO), like you said you can't go wrong with TNG, Voyager isn't that bad and for the most part I'd watch most of it. I can't wait for the new ST movie at the end of 2008 though :)
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12:19<Yorick>there, another bug fixed :)
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12:21<Roujin>eh..
12:22<Roujin>i needed to read the first sentence like 5 times to understand it oO
12:22<Yorick>what sentence?
12:23<Roujin>on bugspray
12:23<Roujin>flyspray
12:23<Roujin>quote
12:23<Roujin>When clicking to a helicopter that includes orders to any type of heliport to copy them as orders of an airplane all orders are copied including those of goto a heliport.
12:23<Yorick>heh
12:23-!-Yorick [~Yorick@82-171-194-232.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: enzulks!]
12:23<Phantasm>Nothing hard in that sentence. ;P
12:24<Roujin>as soon as i read to the end, i forgot what it said at the beginning though
12:24-!-XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:24<Phantasm>Improve your 'whatever it is called in engligh' type of memory to handle longer sentences easier.
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12:25<Roujin>I'd rather report to yorick that his sentence is buggy
12:25<Phantasm>It is not buggy.
12:25<Roest>depending on his reading speed, it's the short term or long term memory
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12:26<Phantasm>Roest: It is short term no matter the reading speed really.
12:26<Roujin>why? it's the way to go, you know? hey you, xy has a bug, fix it! :P
12:26<Roest>if he reads really slow?
12:26<Phantasm>Even so.
12:26<Phantasm>It is one sentence
12:26<Roest>i mean really slow
12:26<Phantasm>Doesn't matter.. The case is under 'work', so it is short term memory.
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12:32<@peter1138>yes, that's a very poor sentence
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12:56<odin>hey
12:57<odin>i have a little problem, there is a subvention for transport of persons between two towns, but i've allready made it, how does it works?
12:58-!-elmex [~elmex@e180066052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
12:59<Roujin>odin: i think that happens if your service is not very good..
12:59<Roujin>anyways, gotta go.. cu later
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13:03<odin>ok
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13:08<Wolf01>hello
13:10<mynetdude>hello :)
13:10<mynetdude>does anybody here play Auran Trainz 2006/2004 as well as OTTD?
13:11<mynetdude>or MSTS for that matter?
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13:43<planetmaker>http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graphicsproblemvz3.png <-- the news window looks ugly when the message is too long....
13:44<planetmaker>is that known (I guess) or new? Revision 12805
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13:55<Kloopy>There isn't a way to upgrade trains from Electric to Maglev is there? I have to send all the trains to an Electric depot, sell them, and re-create them in a Maglev depot?
13:55<planetmaker>only way ^^
13:55<Kloopy>That's really annoying with 150 trains on a network I want to upgrade.
13:55<Kloopy>Each with different orders, etc.
13:56<cjk>there is "upgrade rail"
13:56<hylje>you can copy the orders
13:56<cjk>though if it's also for trains dunno
13:56<Kloopy>I don't think it is, cjk.
13:56<Kloopy>hylje, that's still really slow for 150 trains. ;)
13:57<hylje>suck it up, rail upgrades aren't getting easier without much work
13:58<Kloopy>I guess it could work if you allowed a feature to replace Electric with Maglev engines and wagons... then if you use the convert rail tool on a depot, it will do all those train replacements. If you don't have enough replacements setup, the tool won't change the depot from Electric to Maglev.
13:58<yorick>patch is/was being worked upon
13:59<Kloopy>Oh really? I hadn't heard about that one before.
13:59<planetmaker>^^ But I don't really see the point. Has to be left some work :P
13:59<Kloopy>The work is setting up the 150 train network to begin with. :P
13:59<Kloopy>Re-doing all that work because time has passed and you want to upgrade the train network is frustsrating. :)
14:00<yorick>bugfixing isn't quite motivating if the fixed don't make it to trunk *general message, feel offended at will*
14:01<Roest>yorick: life sucks
14:02<Roest>so i just started a game but didnt feel motivated to play and left immediatly
14:04<Wolf01>Roest, not life, only Italy
14:05<Roest>hmm who's from italy
14:05<Wolf01>I don't know, I know only that they are submerged by shit
14:05<Roest>lol
14:09<mynetdude>hah
14:10<mynetdude>yeah going from conventional rail to electric is no easy feat either
14:10<Roest>why not? that's really easy
14:10<mynetdude>you can't put diesel/steam in electric depots :(
14:10<Roest>that's new to me
14:10<mynetdude>well why not? you can't upgrade the locos
14:10<Roest>try again
14:11<mynetdude>um, well when I look in the depot where the elec trains come out of I noticed there are diesel trains available, but if you look in the diesel depot you don't see elec trains
14:11<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r12851 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/viewport.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Slight mis-sync disabled colouring of selection tiles for seaplane airports.
14:11<mynetdude>but then again... some trains are still better off running on diesel for cost savings
14:12<Roest>you can upgrade the old depots to electric by using the upgrade tool, same way as for tracks
14:12<mynetdude>so is there an upgrade/replace tool or do you have to buy the train and manually add its orders?
14:12<mynetdude>oh, ok... well that makes a lot of sense and would be easier to have one depot instead of two
14:18<Roest>any dev lurking?
14:18<Roest>http://pastebin.com/d3975a989
14:19-!-sickie88 is now known as SickieAway
14:19<Roest>that lets you ctrl click in the color selection so that it sets all primary or secondary colors
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14:35<mynetdude>how does autoreplace trains in depot work? I click on it but nothing happens
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14:47<cjk>“but nothing ever happens” // “and I wonder”
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14:47<SmatZ>yorick: still it is not coding style compliant, there should be curly brackets if the statement after 'if' is on the next line
14:47<SmatZ>I think :)
14:47<SmatZ>and a comment for CheckAircraftCanUseStationsInOrder() would be good, too :)
14:48<Roest>nice i think i've seen this guy http://zensiert.to/media/1/20080421-stereo_pictures_005.gif
14:51<yorick>order_cmd.cpp ine 451 should be changed to: if (v->type == VEH_SHIP && IsHumanPlayer(v->owner) && _patches.pathfinder_for_ships > VPF_OPF) {
14:51<yorick>line*
14:51<mynetdude>cjk you probably wonder as much as I do, I wonder if the help files will tell me how to autoreplace? :P
14:52<yorick>if (v->type == VEH_SHIP && IsHumanPlayer(v->owner) && _patches.pathfinder_for_ships < VPF_NPF) { I mean :oops:
14:52<yorick>I came across it while patching, but I couldn't be bothered too much
14:53<Roest>mynetdude: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Autoreplace
14:54<SmatZ>yorick: this way YAPF will work not so slowly
14:54<cjk>in soviet russia, you get autoreplaced.
14:54<SmatZ>so the current code is good
14:55<yorick>"hah, cjk, in soviet russia, you get happened!"
14:55<yorick>and npf will also work not so slowly?
14:55<cjk>heh
14:56<SmatZ>I suppose, yes
14:56<yorick>but npf is excluded from the check?
14:57<SmatZ>it is
14:57*yorick is waiting for "<peter1138> shush, you'll break my theories!"
14:57*hylje slushes yorick
14:57-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl] by peter1138
14:57-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [shush, you'll break my theories]
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14:58-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl] by peter1138
14:58<Prof_Frink>peter1138! NewBannage!
14:58<cjk>...+q
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14:59<yorick>cjk, hah, in soviet russia, you get +q'ed!
14:59<cjk>I know they'd question you.
15:00<cjk>yorick: actually no, that would be china, not russia.
15:00<yorick>Prof_Frink! StopHidingUnderStoneWhileI'mHere!
15:00<cjk>or rather "rather china than russia"
15:00<yorick>shush! I'm learning chinese!
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15:01<yorick>why does npf work better in this case(for ships)?
15:02<yorick>better than yapf :o
15:02<cjk>i'd say because on sea, you are not bound as much
15:04<yorick>ah well...it's easy enough to overcome that check by removing orders
15:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12852 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: do not try to draw rail catenary above non-rail station tiles
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15:08<Roujin>moin
15:08<Roujin>better, gekz? :P
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15:13<Roest>moin
15:14<sulai>hi Roest, I set eclipse up to compile ottd
15:14<sulai>without sound and music, because of problems with directX
15:14<yorick>eclipse to compile openttd
15:15<yorick>what operating system?
15:15<sulai>but it works nice.. even debugging is working
15:15<yorick>windows, I assume?
15:15<sulai>win32XP
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15:15<sulai>Bjarni isn't here, is he?
15:15<yorick>nope
15:16<sulai>hm...
15:16<yorick>why?
15:16<sulai>It's about http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1308
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15:17<Roest>blah windows
15:18<Roest>i wish there was a way to import project settings from a makefile
15:18<sulai>I would like to see "shared orders" and "same station" vehicle lists treated as groups
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15:18<sulai>If so, you just add features to groups, not to all separate vehicle lists that are in the game
15:19<sulai>Roest: me too... Was a hard time to get it to where it is now
15:20<sulai>With mingw everything was so simple ;)
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3> <Roujin> as soon as i read to the end, i forgot what it said at the beginning though <- how would you get through any german sentence that way?
15:21<ln>I chave eine question.
15:21<sulai>What do you think about treating "shared orders vehicle lists" and "using the same station vehicle lists" just as another type of groups?
15:21<yorick>ln, english only!!!@#%$#%$#!!
15:21<yorick>Roest, try msys and mingw
15:22<@peter1138>i think you ought to profile it, heh
15:22<Roest>yorick: for what?
15:23<ln>When someone goes buy a car in Germany, how does one pay for it?
15:23<sulai>Roest: I set up eclipse as a front end for mingw gcc and mingw dbg
15:23<sulai>ln: euro
15:23<Roest>under windows a sane person would use vs
15:23<Roujin>Eddi: geez, i was just ranting about that sentence being utterly complicated
15:24<ln>sulai: Insufficient information.
15:24<sulai>Roest: did you name me insane? ;)
15:24<ln>Let's say a car costs 20,000 euros. In what format does the buyer give the money to the seller (which we can assume to be a company)?
15:25<Wolf01>ln: cheque
15:25<planetmaker>ln: cash or electronically
15:25<sulai>bank transfer
15:25<ln>Wolf01: you are not from germany.
15:26<planetmaker>or you buy it via credit in a monthly fashion
15:27<ln>ok. i just have the impression that cash is the thing in Germany, and bank transfers not so much, as far as car sales go.
15:27<Roest>uh
15:27<Eddi|zuHause3>Roujin: what i mean, that would be one of the easier sentences in german ;)
15:28<ln>if the buyer is a foreigner, does that complicate things?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: typically, germans pay larger sums per "electronic cash" card (superceded by the "Maestro" system now)
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15:29<Roest>probably not if you have some kind of trailer to transport it away, if you want to drive your new car away, i guess it's getting problematic
15:29<sulai>hey Bjarni =)
15:29<yorick>Bjarni!
15:29<sulai>just waited for you ;)
15:29<yorick>(bjarni time!!)
15:29<sulai>hehe
15:29<@Bjarni>surprisingly I was just reading what sulai wrote about groups
15:29<sulai>^^
15:29<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: which basically means the shop owner gets permission to withdraw the money from your bank account
15:30<sulai>What do you think about it?
15:30<@Bjarni>it could be worth looking into
15:30<sulai>yep, I think it would have some benefits
15:30<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: interesting, i though Germany is 20 years behind all other countries with card payments.
15:31<@Bjarni>clearly it has benefits. I'm wondering if some sideeffects could show up
15:31<Eddi|zuHause3>credit cards are less common in germany
15:31<@Bjarni>like slowdowns
15:31<@Bjarni>and people wondering why some vehicles all of a sudden jumped from one group to another one
15:32<sulai>Bjarni: did you have a look at that wiki page? I planned to put groups into containers called "categories"
15:32<Eddi|zuHause3>like a "create group from this list" button
15:33<sulai>Through categories, groups like we know from 0.6.0 could be conserved, and shared orders / same station categories could be handled independent
15:33<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: over here, there is a national card system (called simply "bank card"), and with such a card, one can pay virtually anywhere. and this has been the situation since the 80's.
15:33<sulai>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/User:Sulai/new_feature_concepts/FlexibleVehicleList
15:33<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: and it's a rare exception if some small place doesn't happen to accept this bank card.
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15:34<sulai>have a look at the dia show on the wiki page ;)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause3>small shops in villages often don't accept such a card here
15:34<Eddi|zuHause3>and the '80s are a completely different topic ;)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause3>you didn't actually buy cars in the '80s ;)
15:35<@Bjarni>sulai: what if a train has orders to go to two different stations and the user wants to make a group of the vehicles for each station?
15:35<ln>let's say "since end of 80's".
15:35<Eddi|zuHause3>your parents applied for one at birth, so that you could get one for your 18th birthday
15:36<@Bjarni>and sets replace orders for it for both groups and it's not the same it's being replaced to
15:36<@Bjarni>then what?
15:36<sulai>Bjarni: groups in the categories "shared orders" and "same station" are fully computer generated, the user can't change the trains in that groups
15:36<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: cool. but well, i doubt minors were allowed to drive anyway. :)
15:36<Eddi|zuHause3>that's not the point ;)
15:36<Eddi|zuHause3>the point is that it took 18 years from the order to the delivery
15:36<@Bjarni>sulai: yeah but what if those two groups have replace commands that aren't compatible and somehow a vehicle can end up in both?
15:37<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: was it the 18 years old model then, or a newer one?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>the model was practically unchanged for a very long time
15:37<ln>ah, that's practical.
15:38<sulai>Bjarni: the replace order needs to be changed slightly: If you give a replace command on a group, all replace commands of the vehicles in that group is overwritten
15:38<sulai>From the wiki:
15:38<Rubidium>slight changes to replace orders are... uhm... impossible
15:38<sulai> * If you give the replace command to a group,
15:38<sulai> * the "protect from autoreplace" button will be deactivated for that group.
15:38<sulai> * overwrite the vehicle's current autoreplace assignment, except those being protected by some other group
15:39<Rubidium>it means vast changes and enormous chances of trouble
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15:40<@Bjarni>also you haven't told what happens if the autogenerated groups includes a vehicle in more than one group
15:40<Roest>it goes poof
15:40<@Bjarni>because right now we can't handle a vehicle being in more than one group
15:41<sulai>Yes... but this is why there are "categories". The "group" category behaves like groups behave now: one vehicle for one group.... the "shared orders" is also one-to-one.... the "same station" is one-vehicle-can-be-in-many-groups
15:42<sulai>if you click on the dropdown entry, you activate another category and only the groups of that category are listed in the vehicle window
15:42<sulai>so, if you have the "groups" category clicked, everything is like we have it now
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15:43<dragonhorseboy>hey
15:43<sulai>if you click the "shared orders" category, you get a list of groups which reflect the current groups of trains which share the same orders
15:43<sulai>...and so on ;)
15:44<sulai>if you have one train in many groups and you apply commands on the same train in another group, the old command is overwritten
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15:44<@Bjarni>this sounds confusing by design
15:45<yorick>I noticed, the spinner widget thingy in the cheat gui that allows you to change date, isn't affected by fs 1404, while it is actually the only thing where you would want such behavior :(
15:45<sulai>hm it maybe is...
15:45<sulai>basic idea was to handle all vehicle lists as groups, to have a common basis
15:46*dragonhorseboy pokes peter1138 to see why the server always fail after barely a game day :p
15:46<@peter1138>i already said, we're investigating
15:46<yorick>rubidium is more of the networking person
15:46<@Bjarni>sulai: to be honest I don't think this idea will work as you expect
15:47<dragonhorseboy>sulai..heh on my own maps (although I sometimes do do this in openttd-online too) I often have the trains and most stations named to my own purpose like eg 'welshtown coal train #1' or 'welshtown coal mine' ^-^
15:47<@Bjarni>even if it's coded like you tell it should be
15:47<@Bjarni>also it's mighty hard to code
15:47<dragonhorseboy>peter....ah ok because it was fun yesterday night and now I noticed its still there but I can't even play .. strange isn't it?
15:47<@Bjarni>and sounds like it will use a whole lot of resources
15:47<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12853 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp rail.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: catenary on tunnel entrances and middle bridge pieces was drawn twice in some cases
15:48<Rubidium> 68.51 126.21 126.21 59341 0.00 0.00 <which mystery function is this?>
15:48<yorick>:D engineloop()?
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15:49<sulai>Hm I think it doesn't take more resources than it does right now... because the vehicle lists are generated right now, too
15:50<@peter1138>for gui purposes, yes
15:51<@peter1138>not for 'checking if any vehicle needs to go to a depot this tick
15:51<@peter1138>'
15:51<sulai>the shared orders vehicle list does already exist in the game... also the same station vehicle list... vehicles don't change the group if the player doesn't do any action
15:51<@Bjarni>autoreplace happens in the background and doesn't generate the station lists or anything like that
15:52<sulai>could you give me a quick introduction to how auto replace happens in the code ;)
15:52<Roest>unvail the mysteries of autoreplace
15:52<sulai>is there some sort of assignment like "train 1 is replaced by SH30"?
15:52<@Bjarni>I think I will limit it to how it figure out what to replace to
15:53<@Bjarni>not how it actually does the replace once it figured out what to replace to
15:53<@Bjarni>one sec
15:53<sulai>ok =)
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15:55<@Bjarni>basically it calls EngineReplacementForPlayer(), which is turn calls EngineReplacement()
15:56<@Bjarni>EngineReplacement() is placed in engine.cpp (like 498 if you have to know)
15:56<sulai>ok... just running eclipse ;)
15:57<@Bjarni>here it loops through all the replace orders for the player in question and stops at one with the correct engine (from type) and group. If it fails to find anything then it runs through all of them again and checks if there is something for the all group
15:57<@Bjarni>hmm
15:58<@Bjarni>maybe speed could be improved here
15:58<sulai>this is what happens in EngineReplacement() ?
15:58<@Bjarni>basically yes
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16:01<sulai>This function is called as soon as the player's vehicle enters the depot?
16:01<@Bjarni>yes
16:01<sulai>"EngineID" identifies the vehicle or just the vehicle type?
16:02<@peter1138>engine type
16:02<sulai>ok...
16:06<@Bjarni>it works on engine types only. The info regarding the vehicle itself is not available here. It only forwards the engine type and group
16:07<sulai>if you apply "replace" on a group like we have in 060, the replace command only applies to that group. Doesn't it?
16:07<@Bjarni>well at least that's the idea
16:08<sulai>say you have 2 user made groups... both contain 3 engines of kirby paul.... you cick on one of them do the replace command (say to SH30).. only the trains of that group will be replaced
16:08<sulai>the code doesn't look like that but I think I have tested that some time ago
16:09<@Bjarni>if (er->from == engine && er->group_id == group) return er; <--- er->from = kirby, engine = kirby er->group_id = 1, group = 1
16:10<@Bjarni>if the vehicle is in group 2 this if doesn't fire
16:11<@Bjarni>meaning it keeps on looking for a replace command for a kirby in group 2
16:13<sulai>Hm.. so replace doesn't work on groups, does it?
16:13<@Bjarni>...
16:14<sulai>well would be nice if it did ^^
16:14<@Bjarni>check line 479
16:14<@Bjarni>it compares group number
16:14<@Bjarni>meaning it wants the group to be the same
16:14<@Bjarni>if it's not the same it will keep on looking for a replace order that has the correct group number
16:15<@Bjarni>I see no reason why this shouldn't work
16:18<Wolf01>'night
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16:19<sulai>hm ok...
16:19<sulai>I'lll just browse the code a little...
16:20<@Bjarni>knowing the current code is always a good place to start
16:21<dih>me!
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16:21<@Bjarni>if you get ideas without looking at the code they can sometimes be great (not limited by thinking about design) but usually it's discarded for being too much work because too much has to change
16:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12854 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Codechange: make drawing of rail catenary a bit faster
16:23<hylje>optimization
16:23<Roest>procrastination
16:23<dragonhorseboy>heh
16:24<dragonhorseboy>hylje+roest...I've been looking at the ttdp source for my current version and a bit of the svn .. still trying to figure out about poking around with it myself to see if I come up with anything interesting or not perhaps heh
16:24<dragonhorseboy>^-^
16:25<Roest>why you telling that to me?
16:25<DaleStan>I'm more wondering why he's mentioning it here. Patch devs are much easier to find in #tycoon.
16:27<sulai>Bjarni: I think the "handle shared orders and same station as groups" lacks in correct defined autoreplace behavior. Resources are not the problem I think...
16:28<sulai>But it's quite a lot of work because the "one train - one group" concept is embedded very deep
16:30<@Bjarni>say a vehicle enters a depot and you need to check is there is a replace order for it based on station/orders/group/global... how would you do it?
16:31<@Bjarni>without using more resources?
16:33<sulai>Hm... simple idea (which needs a lot of code change propably): save the "replace command" per-vehicle
16:33<sulai>the "send to depot" or the "send for servicing" is also saved per-vehicle
16:33<sulai>why should the replace command work in another way?
16:34<sulai>it makes the whole thing way more consistent: a command on a group means to give per-vehicle commands on all vehicles in that group
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16:40<sulai>well was just an idea ;)
16:40<sulai>maybe it's too hard to implement
16:42<dragonhorseboy>peter I'm still wondering -- how can one type of rail locomotive upset a server's connection at random anyhow? :/
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16:52<+glx>dragonhorseboy: you know which engine breaks everything?
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16:53<dragonhorseboy>glx...peter said its the class 91's
16:53<dragonhorseboy>^-^
16:54<@peter1138>how? newgrf
16:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12855 /trunk/src/ (11 files): -Codechange: do not use autoptr's for testing whether certain objects can be build, but check it directly in the pool so we do not have to call destructors in the testing phase. Stations still use the autoptr though.
16:57<dragonhorseboy>well afk for a while
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16:58<sulai>Bjarni: can't find any function which calls EngineReplacementForPlayer() ?
16:59<sulai>oh it's there... don't bother ;)
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17:07<sulai>hm... the autoreplace gui is not designed to work as a per-vehicle command =/
17:10<@peter1138>nope
17:11<Roest>peter
17:13<sulai>Hm... ok I think I have enough of groups for now... Bjarni I hope I didn't stress your nerves too much ;)
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17:14<@Bjarni>something got on my nerves
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17:14<@Bjarni>but not groups and not you
17:15<sulai>hehe nice to hear that! cya later guys
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>nooo he's killing my patch :(
17:49<Rubidium>I always am ;)
17:50-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
17:51<mynetdude>haha
17:52<Patrick`_>im in ur repo killin ur patch
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>you were not ;)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>smatz was :p
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>he changed elrail.cpp :p
17:52<mynetdude>seems like everyone is out to get Eddi|zuHause3's patch
17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>Patrick`_: it's not funny without an appropriate picture
17:54<SmatZ>:)
17:54<SmatZ>and I will continue if peter1138 allows
17:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12856 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Taking r12377 further, ensure that prop 25 is set for all vehicles in the consist before other properties.
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause3>@openttd commit 12377
18:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause3: Commit by glx :: r12377 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2008-03-17 21:49:14 UTC)
18:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause3: -Fix [FS#1854]: set cached value for vehicle property 25 before other cached values
18:08<+glx>Eddi|zuHause3: yes I did not move it up enough ;)
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18:09<@peter1138>it did fix 1854 though :)
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18:16<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12857 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#1948]: remove the last uses of AutoPtr in the station code.
18:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12858 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Add: small piece of code that can help hunting desyncs. Has to be enabled by --enable-desync-debug=1 though.
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause3>what exactly is an autoptr anyway?
18:19<Rubidium>it calls the destructor of some object when it goes out of scope
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18:40<mynetdude>hey does anybody have a patch to override town authority build prevention?
18:41<Tefad>patch.. isn't there a cheat
18:41<mynetdude>I need to make my stations longer, but they won't permit
18:41<+glx>plant trees
18:41<mynetdude>whatever, cheat works
18:41<SmatZ>bribe
18:41<mynetdude>which works better? bribery or trees?
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18:41<SmatZ>depends how much trees you can plant
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18:41<mynetdude>and trees don't always work
18:42<SmatZ>if you can remove all trees and replant them to have good reputation
18:42<mynetdude>well there's gotta be a bettery way around this, this is silly
18:42<SmatZ>then it is good
18:42<SmatZ>or have good rating at stations in the town
18:42<mynetdude>how can I find out about rep rating?
18:42<SmatZ>it will increase your reputation, too
18:47<mynetdude>what will? stations?
18:47<mynetdude>how can I check my rating with the town?
18:48<SmatZ>mynetdude: click on the town sign
18:49<SmatZ>and then on Local authotity
18:50<mynetdude>ah ok didn't notice that before
18:50<mynetdude>well my rating sucks
18:50<SmatZ>hehe
18:50<mynetdude>but I can't improve it without improving rail service
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18:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12859 /trunk/src/ (town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix: make the town rating tests use less memory and much quicker; from 13% to unnoticable in the profile in games with lots of towns and lots of very active AIs.
18:56<Sacro>Anyone here understand set thoery?
18:57<Rubidium>'here' as in 'comes regularly here', then yes
18:57<mynetdude>well I guess I won't be upgrading in Linntown for awhile :(
19:03<Zuu>Sacro: what is it in set theroy you are into? (I'm probably not much of help, only have basic set knowledge from the mathematics of civil enginering)
19:03<Sacro>Is S surjective or bijective?
19:03<Sacro>err
19:03<Sacro>S = {(1,hi),(1,lo),(-1,lo)} <- is it surjective / injective, both or neither, I don't think it's a function, hence neither
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19:03<Zuu>not something I'm familar with.
19:04<ooo4tom>whats that then /
19:05<Rubidium>it's about can just map X to Y and can you map Y to X unambiguously
19:06<Zuu>ok
19:06<Rubidium>as some X (1) can result in multiple different Y (hi, lo) it's not *jective (don't know which one is which)
19:06<Rubidium>same that lo maps to 1 and -1
19:07<Sacro>Rubidium: so it's not a function
19:08<Rubidium>doesn't necessarily need to be a function
19:08<Rubidium>anyhow, IANAM
19:09<Sacro>it does
19:09<Sacro>it can't be *jective unless it's a function
19:09<Rubidium>a mapping is (imo) a function
19:10<Sacro>but a mapping can only go from 1 object
19:10<Sacro>whereas 1 maps to more than 1
19:11<Sacro>1 maps to high and low
19:11<Sacro>and thus stops it being a function
19:15<Yexo>no, a mapping can be from multiple objects to multiple objects
19:16<Yexo>the example you give above is not surjective, since 1 maps to both hi and lo, and also not injective, since both 1 and -1 map to lo
19:16<Zuu>Goodnight, got to have some sleep and continue with the queueing theory stuff I'm studying atm. :)
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19:17<Fingon>bijective?
19:17<Yexo>no, it's bijective iff it's both surjective and injective
19:21<Sacro>Yexo: no, those terms only apply to functions
19:21<Sacro>not mappings
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19:24<Yexo>Sacro: I quote from A friendly introduction to analysis: "A function f, often called a mapping,..."
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19:25<Yexo>but you're right I messed *jective up
19:26<Yexo>they can't be applied here, since the example he gave is not a function/mapping, since there are two different points with the same first coordinate
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20:22<snerfu>hi, I am pretty new to ttd, is there a way to disable the computer player from building stuff, while I test things to see how they work? it like quickly builds all kinds of roads that makes it hard for me to build tracks around.
20:24<Tefad>best is not to play with AI at all.
20:27<+glx>difficulty settings, set oppenents to 0
20:27<snerfu>Thanks.
20:28<+glx>you can also block them in patches settings, competitors
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20:40<snerfu>ah, thats much better
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21:06<snerfu>hmm i cant quite figure out what to send the goods truck to, the wiki says the town, but I cant click on anything when doing a goto.
21:07<snerfu>none of the stations in town accept goods.
21:08<@Belugas>they will eventually
21:08<SmatZ>bye Belugas
21:08<snerfu>ahh ok
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21:15<@Belugas>bye?
21:15<@Belugas>ho...
21:15<@Belugas>yeah...
21:15<@Belugas>good night to you too, even if youcan't see it :)
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21:29<dragonhorseboy>hey
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21:48<snerfu>hmm still nothing accepts goods or water
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22:08<mynetdude>snerfu you still here?
22:09<mynetdude>well here or not, to get the trucks/towns to accept goods you need to put your truck station close enough to the center of town (when you select the stop/station type look at the bottom and it will tell you what it will accept in that coverage area.
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22:16<snerfu>ok thanks
22:16<snerfu>yeah still here
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22:26<mynetdude>cool :) I'm not quite as new, I've played ttd but the older versions but I am new to all the advanced stuff
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 24 00:00:47 2008