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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-25

---Logopened Fri Apr 25 00:00:26 2008
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02:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12891 /branches/0.6/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): [0.6] -Fix (r12868): breakdowns were broken and would cause vehicles to go slower than they should have been moving.
02:16<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12892 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix: too many items in the vehicle toolbars were greyed out.
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02:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12893 /branches/0.6/src/lang/ (20 files in 2 dirs):
02:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r12543, r12861):
02:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Language updates (r12543, r12861)
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03:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12894 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_subsidy.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r12885): Obiwan with months; months go from 1..12, so doing modulo 12 on that causes December to be invalid.
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03:43<Celestar>what the FUCK?
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03:43<Celestar>I guy just called me, trying to sell us [the department] a 16000-buck hardware firewall.
03:43*planetmaker wishes an especially good morning to Celestar...
03:44<Noldo>Celestar: I take it you didn't buy it
03:44<Celestar>because we're endangered since "Your computers broadcast IP addresses and our firewall prevents that"
03:44<planetmaker>What the crap is that^^ ?
03:44*Celestar wonders whether it is a prudent thing to purchase a firewall from someone who apparently knows less about IP network than a rhinozerus knows about tap-dancing
03:45<Noldo>Celestar: :)
03:45<Noldo>salesmen are often a bit lost
03:45<ln>maybe the router didn't support the IP protocol but something like NetBIOS only.
03:46*Celestar tries to imagine a world where every DHCP packet would be forwarded to every single machine on the damn planet
03:46<Yexo>massive ddos attack :P
03:47<@peter1138>mmm, mac address collisions
03:47<Celestar>more like dddddddddddos attack
03:47<Noldo>mmmmonster kill
03:48<Celestar>c-c-c-combo breaker
03:52<jengelh>m-m-m-m-multi kill
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04:13<Rubidium>a firewall that explicitly prevents the use of DHCP... how useful
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04:19<HMage>2e3000 people die in a f-f-f-f-fireball
04:21<Celestar>Rubidium: maybe it prevents broadcast packets to be routed :P
04:21<HMage>maybe it's a NAT :D
04:21<HMage>or not
04:21<Rubidium>Celestar: not if that quote it correct
04:21<HMage>NAT or not
04:22<HMage>NAT is not? not is NAT?
04:22<HMage>NAT is not NOD?
04:23<HMage>NOD not so NAT?
04:23*HMage sends SYN packets to everyone
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04:27*Gekz cries
04:28<Gekz>The SYN packets hurt my testes
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06:21<Celestar>why are people always complaining that I make too complicated sentenses in English? It's not even my native language ...
06:22<Rubidium>Celestar: known problem ;)
06:22<Celestar>my colleagues for example
06:22<Celestar>just because they don't understand the damn language properly in the first place :P
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07:17<Roest>is anyone getting a compiler warning in dbg_helpers or is that just a linux/gcc thing?
07:20<Progman>same here
07:22<Progman>amd64, too?
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07:24<Progman> ;)
07:25<Gekz>its another strike against the machine
07:25<Gekz>bail out!
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07:37<Roest>uff savegame is at 94 now?
07:38<Roest>dont mind me asking the obvious
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09:11<Ammler>Roest: is your patchpack "MP save"?
09:12<Ammler>ah, yes, safe of course
09:12<Ammler>CIV isn't :-(
09:13<Ammler>community integrated version
09:15<planetmaker>Ammler: what's going wrong with it? Didn't it work yesterday...?
09:15<Roest>i'm not 100% sure, the version without paxdet 'should' be
09:16<Roest>havent tested it tho
09:16<Roest>what's breaking it in the CIV?
09:17<Ammler>track sharing or daylength maybe?
09:17<Roest>peter1138: can you have a look at #1952, rubidium said that's your field of expertise
09:18<Ammler>truelights patch was safe, but they made something else
09:19<Roest>Ammler: i'm not happy with the current daylength patch either
09:19<Gekz>why would you want that
09:19<Ammler>why don't you want that?
09:20<Roest>Ammler: i'm doing a r12892 version of my pack right now, want me to leave daylength out?
09:20<Ammler>Roest: no, it was just a question
09:20<Ammler>if you say your pack is safe, so I know, its an other patch
09:21<Roest>since i'm not the author of these patches i can say for sure
09:21<Ammler>never played MP with it?
09:21<Roest>not the last version
09:22<Roest>i had a dedicated server running with the first two
09:22<Gekz>i ran with daylength on a dedicated server
09:22<Gekz>I had a lot of desyncs
09:22<Gekz>after about 2 decades
09:22<Ammler>how long is a decade?
09:23<Roest>10 years?
09:23<@peter1138>Roest: i prefer that version of the patch to the other one i saw
09:23<Gekz>Ammler: are you frence
09:23<Gekz>close enough
09:23<Roest>peter1138: i had some counseling from belugas
09:23<Gekz>i should have whois'd you
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09:24<Gekz>Du sprechen Deutsch oder Französisch?
09:24<@peter1138>Roest: i dislike it though :)
09:24<Ammler>so you mean 10 years?
09:24<Roest>umm why? :(
09:24<Gekz>2 decades = 20 years
09:24<Ammler>I have them about monthly
09:24<Ammler>with daylength 10
09:24<Gekz>I meant they started after 2 decades
09:24<Gekz>they were constant after that
09:27<@peter1138>Roest: because it sends a command for every scheme, which is bad
09:28<@peter1138>so i'm doing it server side ;)
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09:34<Gekz>peter1138: what, the daylength patch, serverside?
09:34<Gekz>Like i suggested last week and was told pfft
09:35<blindcoder>Hi all. I don't suppose there's an easy way to convert from electric to monorail trains like it is from steam/diesel to electric?
09:35<Yorick>(not yet)
09:35<@peter1138>Gekz: no
09:35<Yorick>someone was making a patch doing that
09:36<blindcoder>okay thanks, just thought I was too stupid to use the update trains screen
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09:36<Yorick>what update trains screen?!
09:37<Roest>wut wut wut
09:37<Yorick>autoreplace can't covert cross-railtype
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes it can, from standard rail to electrified rail
09:37<Yorick>electric & normal = same rail type
09:37<Yorick>at least its compatible enough
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>plus, that is just a one-line-change to enable all railtypes
09:38<Yorick>and then what?
09:38<Yorick>you can autoreplace, but good luck getting an electrical train into a monorail depot
09:38<Yorick>or getting a monorail train out of an electric depot
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>upgrading a depot with trains inside is aonother one-line-change
09:39<blindcoder>Yorick: what about converting the electric to a monorail depot?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>and then you click the "upgrade all trains here" button
09:40<Yorick>go making it, but then I don't understand why it took so long for ...
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>it does not take long, it is a design decision to not allow it
09:41<blindcoder>yeah, that's the way I'd do it. It sure beats building a new train, giving it the same orders/a shared order with the old one and doing that for 50+ trains :)
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>50? you have a small network :p
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, using a newgrf railset mostly eliminates this "upgrade" step anyway
09:42*blindcoder whistles innocently
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09:53<Roest>Ammler: i put a new version of the patchpack up, can you test it if it's multiplayer safe?
09:54<Roest>i also have a version without daylength
09:54<Yorick>currently testing CIV
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09:55<Roest>good thing i dont see you yorick
10:01<@peter1138>Roest: Does work?
10:03<Roest>compiling now
10:06<Roest>ah shit guess this wasn't a clean checkout, gimme another minute :)
10:09<Yorick> <-- does this one work?
10:15<Roest>peter1138: is it supposed to do something at ctrl-click?
10:16<Roest>if so, it's not working
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10:27<@peter1138>guess not :)
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10:41<Eddi|zuHause>is the 16th most common element
10:41<Roujin>thanks, eddipedia
10:41<Roujin>Rubidium [user]?
10:41<Yorick>Rubidium [element]
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10:42<Roujin>i understood eddipedia, but now i'm asking eddipedia about the user rubidium..
10:42<Roujin>ok now jokes aside
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10:43<Roujin>i found a bug that road tiles with road construction cannot be flooded by water
10:43<hylje>a level crossing?
10:43<Roujin>made a quick check in code and now it can be flooded, but the effectvehicle (the bulldozer) will stay
10:44<Roujin>no hylje, normal road that has a road construction going on (you know, the stuff you can fund in the town authority window..)
10:46<Roujin>digging a bit in the newly by rubidium arranged effectvehicle.*, it seems there's no way to prematurely kill (or even get access to) an effectvehicle
10:48<Roujin>they are just created, a pointer is returned, but at least in case of the road construction bulldozer, it's thrown away.
10:48<Roujin>and the effectvehicle just deletes itself once its animation cycle has ended.
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>can't you find vehicles by tile?
10:50<Roujin>...i wonder if the roads with road construction cannot be flooded by design - since the bulldozer on water looks even weirder than the non flooded tile
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10:51<dragonhorseboy>peter1138 figured out any progress on your ukrs+ukrsi server and class 91's or no new news yet?
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10:55<Roest>blah you can only attach 3 files to a post :/
10:55<Yorick>it's strange: dt-stop with normal road under it: normal dt stop, dt-stop with tram rails under it: tram stop! dt-stop with both: tram stop and road stop!
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>make two posts :p
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Yorick: what is strange about this?
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>it is very common that trams and busses stop at the same place
10:58<Yorick> amsterdam, they're definatly called different
11:01<Roest>too many drug addicts in amsterdam
11:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r12895 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt icelandic.txt): -Fix: restored Icelandic plural form and removed cases from Brazilian Portuguese (again)
11:05<Yorick>restore it in webtranslator
11:06<Yorick>everytime it gets updated, the bug appears again
11:06<+glx>wt2 is broken for that
11:06<@peter1138>webtranslator is supposed to treat svn as canon
11:06<Yorick>wt3 should arrise?
11:07<+glx>and I noticed the icelandic error recently (it's from r12543)
11:07<Yorick>@openttd commit 12543
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Commit by miham :: r12543 /trunk/src/lang (14 files) (2008-04-03 07:20:32 UTC)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-04-03 08:42:55
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: brazilian_portuguese - 18 fixed by fukumori (18)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: bulgarian - 17 fixed by thetitan (17)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: catalan - 11 fixed by arnaullv (11)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: dutch - 19 fixed by habell (19)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: french - 11 fixed by glx (11)
11:07<@DorpsGek>Yorick: hungarian - 5 fixed by miham (5)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: icelandic - 24 fixed, 2 changed by scrooge (26)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: italian - 11 fixed, 1 changed by lorenzodv (12)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: korean - 17 fixed, 3 changed by leejaeuk5 (20)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: slovak - 18 fixed by lengyel (18)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: slovenian - 19 fixed by Necrolyte (19)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: swedish - 33 fixed by daishan (33)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: turkish - 18 fixed by jnmbk (18)
11:08<@DorpsGek>Yorick: ukrainian - 17 fixed by mad (17)
11:08<dragonhorseboy>*smacks a spammer*
11:08<Roujin>don't get DorpsGek kicked for spamming, yorick :P
11:08<Yorick>get him a limit
11:08<dragonhorseboy>so peter did you see my question to you a while ago? ;)
11:09<Yorick>seen * also makes a nice one
11:09<dragonhorseboy>ok just checking ^-^
11:09<@peter1138>i already said the other day
11:09<Yorick>if you're pressing @more 50 times again
11:09<dragonhorseboy>and what about -today-? ;)
11:09<@peter1138>it'll be sorted in the next release
11:10<dragonhorseboy>ah ok
11:10<dragonhorseboy>so the game is basically frozen for now till 0.6.0 is updated?
11:11<Celestar>dragonhorseboy: ?
11:11<Roest>that's the answer we got when asking if yapp goes in anytime soom
11:11<@Belugas>0.6 is on a branch of its own now
11:11<@Belugas>it does not need to have trunk frozen
11:11<Roest>belugas can we get diagonal roads please
11:11<@Belugas>ho... will i do it?
11:11<+glx>Roest: code it
11:11<@Belugas>where is tat kick function again???
11:12<@peter1138>dragonhorseboy: well i can unpause it but it'll desync
11:12<@peter1138>maybe start a new game again
11:12<@Belugas>Roest, that SirXavius can just blabla and die
11:12<dragonhorseboy>peter...ah ok...well at least it was a nice game while it lasted
11:13<Yorick>should be possible to clone/share orders with list entries
11:13<dragonhorseboy>peter..hopefully the next one would be a bit more fun with having to start with only steam or early electrics rather than having almost all modern engines present ;)
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11:13<@peter1138>errr... it started in 1921...
11:14<Roest>belugas that's like the guy that keeps asking if i can add engine pool to the patchpack, everytime he sees a new file in peters dir
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11:15<dragonhorseboy>peter..well I mean..I came in like in a bit after 2000
11:15<dragonhorseboy>thats what I mean ^-^
11:21<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12896 /branches/noai/ (75 files in 9 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12824:r12895.
11:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12897 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: some coding style in station_cmd.cpp.
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11:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12898 /trunk/src/unmovable_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: coding style in unmovable_cmd.cpp.
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11:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12899 /branches/noai/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
11:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AIEventCompany(New|Merger|InTrouble|Bankrupt) (Yexo)
11:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: don't export constructor for AIEventTypes, as you shouldn't do it via SQ
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11:34<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12900 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12899: a cosmic ray hit my HD and removed a ';'.. now that sucks!
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11:51<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12901 /branches/noai/ (11 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AITown.IsWithinTownRadius, AIStation.IsWithinTownRadius and AITile.GetOwner (Yexo)
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11:57<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12902 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix r12901 [API CHANGE]: renamed IsWithinTownRadius to IsWithinTownInfluence, as that reflects the meaning much better
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12:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12903 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12899: wrong doxygen param-name comment
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12:34<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r12904 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt openttd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#1953]: remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash
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12:34*Belugas just noticed Roujin's forum signature :) funny
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12:40<Roujin>yeah when i read those two lines, it made my day :D
12:41<Roujin>[18:40] <HMage> мямя?
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>he always leaves these cryptic messages, nobody ever figured out what they mean
12:44<NukeBuster>It's a quest ;-)
12:45<SmatZ>doesn't he always say the same?
12:46<NukeBuster>perhaps it's an SOS?
12:47<SmatZ>that would be sad
12:51<Rubidium>it's more a request to get kicked
12:55<Gekz>мямя = myamya
12:55<Gekz>ie, means nothing
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12:59<Roujin>I have spotted something wasting cpu..
13:00<Celestar>it's called ntoskrnl.exe
13:00<Roujin>ha ha.. no seriously
13:00<Roujin>tiles with x=255 and/or y=255 are being flooded every tileloop
13:01<Roujin>or, more generally the fake tile row at the lower end of the map
13:01<Celestar>the shadow cells ...
13:02<Roujin>yeah, if that's the correct name for them..
13:03<Roujin>i guess it's because the tiletype is checked to be not MP_WATER
13:04<Roujin>i'll add a check for MP_VOID
13:06*Rubidium wonders how you can determine whether it's wasting CPU when you haven't profiled with and without that extra check
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13:08<Roujin>well, i can tell it's wasting CPU
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13:08<Roujin>i cannot tell if it's wasting a significant amount, that is...
13:09<Roujin>i can tell it's not of any sense to call DoFloodTile on those tiles
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13:10<Roujin>i can tell that it's not of any sense to check for vehicles being on those tiles to see if they are going to be destroyed by the flood...
13:10<Rubidium>and the overhead of doing the branch 2047x2047 times extra?
13:10<Rubidium>the extra 'if'
13:10<Rubidium>that costs CPU too
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13:12<Rubidium>I've seen more 'obvious optimisations' that have backfired pretty hard
13:13<Roujin>there's already a check for MP_WATER..
13:13<Rubidium>and the other check is then immediatelly free?
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13:14<Roujin>ok, you've got a point there. I shouldn't assume without any testing that including a check there would make things better.
13:17<Roujin>it seems that for water tiles it was better to check for them. the comment says /* do not try to flood water tiles - increases performance a lot */
13:18<yorick>yeah...from 60% to 30%
13:18<yorick>on an empty map
13:18<Roujin>well on an empty map, that changes flooding of all tiles every tileloop to none.
13:19<Roujin>correction, to x+y
13:19<Roujin>the void tiles
13:19<yorick>@calc 2048*2048*4
13:19<@DorpsGek>yorick: 16777216
13:19-!-yorick is now known as FalseBrain
13:19<hylje>7nick FileNotFoundBrain
13:20-!-FalseBrain is now known as Yorick
13:22<Roujin>evidently, x+y DoFloodTile() saved per TileLoop cycle is nowhere as much as x*y. But the overhead by the if-clause is only created for tiles that actually should be flooded.
13:23<@Belugas>heheh too bad i do not have the possibility to "freeze" a nick :)
13:24<Roujin>how many tiles are there actually to be flooded in an average game? i dare to say less than x+y (the void border)
13:24<@Belugas>blocks a user to change his nick
13:24<Fingon>there's a channel function so you can't change your nick while you are in that channel
13:24<Yorick>mode +m does the trick
13:24*Belugas checks
13:24<Fingon>i don't think it's +m :p
13:24<Yorick>you on #openttd.notice?
13:24<Yorick>then you can't change nick
13:25<Yorick>[19:25] #openttd.notice You may not change nickname while banned or moderated on a channel (+b/+q/+m)
13:25*Yorick hopes he didn't bring good ideas with that +b/+q
13:26<@Belugas>no, but your FalseBrain would have been cool if it was kept as such for ever ^_^
13:27<Yorick>you could register and link it
13:27-!-Yorick is now known as questionmark
13:27<questionmark>I have this one
13:27-!-questionmark is now known as Yorick
13:29<dih>hey oh so lovely openttd devs
13:29<dih>would you be very very kind to #openttdcoop?
13:30<dih>we were wondering if you would let us use your maillist :-)
13:30<Roujin>hmm, docks are also constantly flooded every TileLoop
13:30<dih>or if it's possible we can use our own domain
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause> <Roujin> how many tiles are there actually to be flooded in an average game? <- about 90% of the map as soon as someone vandalises it
13:33<Roujin>no, only the border of the area
13:34<Roujin>and only for as long as everything is flooded
13:34<Roujin>during this time, there actually is an amount of tiles that should actually be flooded, starting from max 2*(x+y) and constantly decreasing
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13:35<Roujin>whereas the void tiles exist ALWAYS, during all games they are constantly being flooded
13:36<Roujin>i think the overhead of one if-clause for the validly flooded tiles is small enough if that if-clause prevents a heap of functions to be called for the (x+y) void tiles
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't "think", proove
13:38<Roujin>i don't know how to profile something like this
13:38<@Belugas>Roujin, it might be interesting to have some profiling here
13:38<Roujin>i can only do the maths..
13:39<Fingon>run a game at speedup for say 120 seconds (no ai), check what date you are at. Then apply your patch, and run again and check again
13:40<Roujin>no seriously.. i've never done something like this before. I have a windows machine which i assume is not exactly the optimum for programming stuff (i use msys and mingw to have access to stuff like make)
13:40<Fingon>if date is higher, patch makes it better
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13:40<Roujin>wasn't there a command line option i read shortly ago that makes a two week benchmark or something?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>"Der Stürmer Mladen Petric der Borrussia Dortmund wurde observiert, nachdem am Telefon die verdächtige Phrase "Bin Mladen" gefallen war." <- that is so evil :p
13:41<Yexo>you can try make run-prof
13:41<Yexo>don't know if/how it works though, as I can't run openttd from cygwin
13:43<Roujin>okay, i found it again: these were the instructions given to a user to compare to different versions.. time ./openttd -c path_to_config -v null:ticks=1000 -m null -s null -g path_to_savegame
13:43<Roujin>that was for osx though
13:44<@Belugas>you should ask Rubidium or SmatZ, they do both some profiling
13:44*Belugas thinks there might be a need for a wiki entry on profiling...
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13:47<Roujin>ooh, i think i can work with these instructions...
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13:49<Roujin>ha! i've got proof
13:49<Roujin>and it saves about 10% even!
13:49<mynetdude>if I have newgrfs installed and a friend and I want to play multiplayer, can he still play without installing the newgrfs?
13:49<Yexo>mynetdude: he'll need to have the exact same grf's
13:49<Roujin>real 0m2.266s
13:49<Roujin>user 0m0.031s
13:49<Roujin>sys 0m0.000s
13:49<Yorick>as the server
13:49<Roujin>real 0m2.078s
13:49<Roujin>user 0m0.031s
13:49<Roujin>sys 0m0.000s
13:50<mynetdude>ah so it won't even let him connect without it :(
13:50<mynetdude>guess I'll just remove them so he can play
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>errr... "real" is irrelevant
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>"user" is the relevant number
13:51<Roujin>ok, 10% is misleading because it was a pretty much empty savegame where nothing is happening
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>"real" is affected by other processes running on your computer
13:51<Roujin>so, in a game stuffed with trains and stuff it will of course not save 10%
13:51<Yorick>is that time util also there for windows?
13:52<Yexo>Yorick: it is available under cygwin
13:52<Yorick>ah, I just got it
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13:53<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
13:53<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 26 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin: did you listen to anything i said?
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13:55<Roujin>i just now read it... sorry...
13:55<Roujin>well then i have to increase the number of ticks before i can get numbers big enough to notice any change i guess
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>that is a trivial adjustment, really ;)
13:57<Roujin>can you tell me more about the three values there and why user is the important oneß
13:57<Yexo>real is the time spend as you could have measured with a stopwatch
13:57<Yexo>sys is the time spend in the os
13:58<Yexo>and user is the time the cpu spend running your program
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>if real >> user+sys, it it means you have lots of stuff running in parallel
13:59-!-planetmaker is now known as pm|away
14:00<Roujin>i see. well i said before i have no clue about profiling :> thanks for helping me and not laughing at me for being a n00b btw
14:00<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: not perse, as time the program spends waiting for io is also in real iirc
14:00<@Belugas>Roujin, someone who tries and makes efforts is not one to laugh at
14:01<Roujin>now why is it that user time is still the same when putting 100.000 instead of 1000 ticks in the benchmark?
14:01<Yexo>does openttd run fast forward?
14:01<SmatZ>Roujin: is the game paused?
14:01<SmatZ>and the numbe rhas no effect for 0.5
14:02<Roujin>eh? its a command line option.. no real game is run, it's just a benchmark in the background
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>seems to have no effect in fairly recent trunk either
14:02<Roujin>and i'm running trunk of.. yesterday for that matter
14:03<SmatZ>Roujin: when the game is paused, it won't benchmark anything
14:03<SmatZ>it will run 1000 "ticks" of nothing
14:03<SmatZ>as far as I know
14:03<Roujin>smatz: ah i understand, you mean the savegame
14:03<Roujin>i'll go check
14:03<Roujin>no, it's not in paused mode
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, paused, that might be a reason
14:04<Roujin>it's a freshly generated map though, without anything running
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>the CPU usage of ECS is insane
14:06<Yorick>what rev?
14:06<@Belugas>always been, and should remain the same, Eddi|zuHause
14:07<@Belugas>unless george finds less cpu intensive tests
14:07<Roujin>now that is weird
14:07<Yorick>wouldn't some xml-based savegame format suit better?
14:07<@Belugas>ho i feel a kick!!!
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>xml is the worst format for data storage ever...
14:08<Roujin>i added some random vehicles now and tested again for 1000, 10000 and 100000 ticks
14:08<Lakie>Its quite wasteful size wise.
14:08<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: I disagree.
14:08<Yorick>json? ini?
14:08<Lakie>However its easily phrased.
14:08<Prof_Frink>.bmp images of punched cards
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>let me rephrase that
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>xml is the worst format for data storage ever being publicly hyped
14:09<@Belugas>indeed... only a hype
14:09<Roujin>1000 ticks gives real: 1.266 secs, user: 0.015 secs -- 10000 gives real: 3.860 secs, user: 0.030 secs -- 100000 gives real: 33.266 secs, user: 0.015 secs
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>these numbers look totally weird
14:10<@Belugas>good for computer to computer data exchange, even more cross platform. but as data definition? yurk
14:10<Yexo>Roujin: when running under windows, the timer is not that precise, so 0.015 and 0.030 can both be approx 0.22 or something
14:10<Yorick>the current binary format isn't too well either
14:10<Roujin>am i doing something wrong, or does mingw something wrong or where's the fault :/
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14:11<Yorick>try to rung again
14:11<@Belugas>it is perfect for our use, Yorick
14:11<Yexo>try running it again with a 2048x2048 map
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14:11<Yorick>unless you'd want to edit a savegame
14:11<Roujin>but i mean, if real increases that much, shouldn't user also increase? oO
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>probably it can't get these numbers properly in windows
14:11<Yexo>Roujin: not if the game is not running in fast forward
14:11<@Belugas>[14:10] <Yorick> unless you'd want to edit a savegame <-- muwhahahaha!!!!
14:12<@Belugas>"please, mister dev, can you fix my savegame? I've fooled around and now it does not work anymore"
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14:12*Yorick unstucks belugas again
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14:14*Yorick tries to unstuck belugas again
14:14*Yorick uses hammer
14:14-!-Yorick was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [A kick works better than a hammer!]
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14:15*Yorick takes the kick from belugas and tries to unstuck him with it
14:15*Yorick kicks belugas, *ah finally*
14:16<Roujin>Yexo: well, I *assume* it runs in fast forward because it's a benchmark?
14:16<Yexo>if it runs for 33 seconds, you can check taskmgr during that time
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14:17<Yexo>I also assumed it would do that, but better check then assume
14:17<dih>yorick: you know it's kinda funny - all who are ops in #openttd #openttd.noai (other unmentioned chennels you have been), #openttdcoop #openttdfairplay have at least kicked you once
14:18<Yorick>not all ops in #openttdcoop
14:18<Yorick>-wait: why are you counting that?-
14:19<Roujin>well i come to the conclusion that for some matter this profiling tool is broken and does not display the right value for user for me
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>your operating system is broken
14:20<dih>Yorick: put it this way, the only channel you have never been kicked from is the one you and your bot cuddle in
14:20<Patrick`_>it's called a circlejerk?
14:20<Yorick>yes I have
14:20<@Belugas>false, dih. He nver was kicked from #openttd.notice
14:20<Yorick>by LordAzamath :p
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin: alternative approach, make sure nothing else is running, and take a series of statistics of the "real" times
14:22<@Belugas>Roujin, it's that or there may be more magic to cast before using it. Unfortunately, profiling is not my stuff, to be honest
14:22<Roujin>eddi: i'm pretty sure i can't archieve this
14:22<Roujin>there is always some system stuff running
14:23<Roujin>which i shouldn't just kill
14:24<dih>Belugas: is that channel moderated?
14:24<@Belugas>and no one but Trurbrain and his bot can speak on it!
14:25<Roujin>now what i could do is add the one line patch to flyspray and ask that someone who is able to do it please profile it
14:25<Roujin>actually it's just a side effect from the bug i actually wanted to fix, and now i'm stuck on this ><
14:26<dih>Belugas: it is moderated (has the +m flag)
14:26<dih>that means only op and voice can talk!
14:26<Roujin>i actually added a debug message every time the function for checking if a vehicle would be flooded is called
14:26<Roujin>and then i wondered why it already pops a heap of messages every tileloop in the main menu
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>text output kills any kind of information in performance measurement
14:27<Roujin>resulting in my find that every tileloop the void tiles at the lower end are flooded
14:28*Belugas kinda remember some TICK TOCK stuff in regards of profiling or such
14:28<Roujin>eddi: i know, for profiling i reverted my changes first and only added the if-check
14:30<Yorick>any opinions about fs 1940?
14:30<Rubidium>Roujin, about profiling: you need to do several runs (at least 5) to get something statistically comparable
14:31<Yexo>Yorick: difficult one, since it might be possible that an oil rig is also serviced by a train station
14:32<Roujin>Rubidium: someone told me that the "real" value is not important but the "user" value
14:32<Roujin>but the "user" value is always 0.015 or something, really low for me :/
14:32<Roujin>no matter btw if I let the benchmark run 1000, 10000 or 100000 ticks, it's the same.
14:33<Rubidium>which would mean that user isn't what you need to be looking at
14:33<SmatZ>maybe it has problems loading the game or it is paused or so
14:33<Yorick>if you would allow things to be transfered to the station, everyone could go & use the oil
14:34<Rubidium>still... the binary must be doing something
14:34<Rubidium>and 1000 ticks doing nothing
14:34<Rubidium>either takes no time at all, or 30000 ms, (30 seconds)
14:34<SmatZ>if the game is paused, it does nothing 1000 times :)
14:34<Roujin>SmatZ: i checked, the savegame was not paused..
14:34<Yexo>Roujin: did you check cpu usage during your test?
14:35<Roujin>Yexo: no...
14:35<Yexo>few % cpu usage and approx 30sec run time would indicate real is also not the time you need to look at
14:36<Roujin>Rubidium: would you kill me if I post that patch on flyspray (it's a one-liner) and ask you to profile it? I can't get it right it seems x_x
14:37<Yorick>I wouldn't
14:37<Yorick>as I can't
14:37<Rubidium>./configure --enable-profiling
14:37<Rubidium>make run-prof
14:38<Rubidium>maybe even make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null"
14:40<Roujin>what should I start it with once it's done compiling?
14:40<Yexo>make run-prof starts it for you
14:40<Rubidium>make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null"
14:42<Roujin>and after it's done, should i run it again some more times, to get more data?
14:42<Rubidium>yup, that's the best way to do it
14:42<Rubidium>but it'll will create a lot of data
14:44<Roujin>whoops, it couldn't load the save game.. maybe due to some newgrfs that were in it. i'll try again with the 2048^2 i created without newgrfs
14:45<Patrick`_>benchmark without grfs, they might be shoddily-written
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14:49<Roujin>do i have to write the savegame in ' ' or something?
14:50<Rubidium>if there are no spaces in the path
14:50<Rubidium>then you don't need it
14:50<Rubidium>however, it needs to be relative to the bin/ directory
14:50<Roujin>that seems to have done the trick
14:52<Roujin>can i dump the output to a file somehow?
14:52<Yorick>> ...
14:52<Yorick>time ./openttd.exe <ARGUMENTS> > profilelog
14:53<Rubidium>Yorick: time doesn't profile!
14:53<Yorick>then what does
14:53<Rubidium>the binary + gprof
14:53<Yorick>> timelog
14:54<Roujin>i got it
14:54<Roujin>i used the line you gave me before, rubidium, followed by > dump.txt
14:54<Roujin>it really does output a whole lot of data O_O
14:56<Roujin>so, i'll do this again 4 more times, and then 5 times with the clean build? (i currently have the change done on the source)
14:56<Yorick>you mean make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null > dump.txt ?
14:57<Rubidium>Yorick: yes, but with the required closure of the string
14:59<Roujin>Rubidium: that sure outputs a lot of data, it's too massive for me to see the relevant part oO
14:59*Rubidium recommends "Reading gprof output for dummies"
15:00<Rubidium>‘‘gprof: A Call Graph Execution Profiler’’, by Graham, S.L., Kessler, P.B., McKusick, M.K.; Proceedings of the SIGPLAN ’82 Symposium on Compiler Construction, SIGPLAN Notices, Vol. 17, No. 6, pp. 120-126, June 1982.
15:03<Rubidium>dih: you missed a part
15:03<Rubidium>‘‘gprof: A Call Graph Execution Profiler’’, by Graham, S.L., Kessler, P.B., McKusick, M.K.; Proceedings of the SIGPLAN ’82 Symposium on Compiler Construction, SIGPLAN Notices, Vol. 17, No. 6, pp. 120-126, June 1982.
15:03<Rubidium>or... is my irc client acting up again?
15:03<Yexo>it is
15:03<Rubidium>or screen
15:04<Yorick>gmon.out: No such file or directory <-- only thing I get
15:04<Yexo>you're repeating yourself now
15:04<dih>this is #openttd
15:04<dih>the only thing i remember where i highlighted you was about the maillist...
15:04<dih>did i miss a part there?
15:05<Rubidium>dih: you always miss stuff ;)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>like an "edral" in the nick :p
15:05<Rubidium>Yorick: you didn't compile with profiling enabled
15:07-!-pm|away is now known as planetmaker
15:08<Roujin>hmm. seems the differences between each run are quite big
15:09<Roujin>do i have to run it 100 times and compute the average to have numbers i can actually work with?
15:09<Roujin>I'm afraid 5 times doesn't really make a cut..
15:09<+glx>Roujin: if you want a good test use pile transport final from openttdcoop
15:10<Patrick`_>mmm, piles
15:10<+glx>around 1000 trains
15:10<Rubidium>Roujin: just show the profiles
15:11<+glx>every little improvement is visible with pile transport ;)
15:11<Rubidium>and yes, they'll always differ, but that's because of how profiling works
15:12<dih>thanks Rubid <-- just to prove a point ^^
15:13<Roujin>hmm if i'm reading the right stuff, it was no good idea after all since the mean time increased with my change.. then again i don't really know how to read it, so i'll shove it into the pastebin and you can make your own picture of it
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15:14<dih>Rubidium: what do you think of the mailing list question?
15:14<Rubidium>I'm not the mailinglist guy
15:14<dih>who would i have to ask?
15:14<+glx>ask TB
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15:21<Roujin>has pastebin got a limit?
15:23<Yorick>15.69 0.24 0.24 1020325 0.00 0.00 <-- guess the function - part 2
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15:25<Rubidium>too much newgrfs ;)
15:25<Yorick>should blame coop pack
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15:25<Rubidium>I always remove the symlink to the newgrfs from ~/.openttd/data/
15:26<Yorick>why did it run chatmsg_dailyloop?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause> 22.12 4.53 4.53 31890679 0.00 0.00 Resolve(SpriteGroup const*, ResolverObject*)
15:27<Prof_Frink>@seen Bjarni
15:27<@DorpsGek>Prof_Frink: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, and 0 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
15:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12905 /branches/0.6/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
15:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk r12904, r12876:
15:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash [FS#1953] (r12904)
15:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Fix: GCC on FreeBSD does not support -dumpmachine causing configure to fail. Use g++ instead [FS#1928] (r12876)
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>where did the "0 minutes" go?
15:28<Yorick>0 seconds ago :o
15:29<Yorick>@seen Bjarni
15:29<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 29 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
15:29<Tefad>0 minutes into the future
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15:29<Yorick>that timing was great :)
15:29<Prof_Frink>I almost missed it
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>why do "Save_MAP*()" get called 3 times each?
15:34<Yorick>but I can't know
15:35<@Belugas>because it is stuttering?
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15:47<Ammler>is that already in FS as feature request?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>i am not sure if i like that request
15:49<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you know, what I like?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>is that a trick question?
15:50<Ammler>no :-)
15:50<Ammler>just because you don't like it
15:50<Ammler>I asked about the preview images
15:52<Ammler>you woudn't need to click through all
15:56<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 2 autosaves?
15:56<Rubidium>rather 3 ;)
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>within 1000 ticks?
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15:57<dragonhorseboy>any of you ever play maps where there's pretty much no freights at all?
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15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i play mostly passenger games
15:58<Fingon>no freights = no industries ?
15:58<dragonhorseboy>eddi heh so you'll like a multiplayer map that has industries set to zero and a grf that almost only has express trains alone?
16:00*dragonhorseboy is just wondering
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't like multiplayer maps
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16:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: likes to play with the AI. :-)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. sure. :p
16:13<dragonhorseboy>ammler....bah :p
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>you just forgot a word :p
16:13<dragonhorseboy>how about you ammler? express-only or nah?
16:14<Ammler>I play OTTD only in MP
16:15<@Belugas>playing OTTD? sooo passé..
16:15<Fingon>i just let the AI play :)
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16:15<Ammler>yeah, I am looking forward to see AI against AI playing
16:15<Ammler>well, then we have maybe more clients as server :-)
16:16<dragonhorseboy>ammler...hmm so you'll like to play a map with no freights at all if we wanted to? :p
16:16<dragonhorseboy>(just asking)
16:17<Fingon>dragonhorseboy : is my plane ai invited? :p
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16:18<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: "nah"
16:19<Ammler>I have enough OTTD for today
16:19<Ammler>was at #coop
16:19<Ammler> ^open
16:21<dragonhorseboy> planes unless you want to use russiaplanes grf sorry ;)
16:21<dragonhorseboy>ammler...well what if it was another time tho?
16:22<Ammler>I prefer coopish games
16:22<Ammler>I am too lazy to build everything alone
16:22<dragonhorseboy>ammler...heh well quick question
16:22<dragonhorseboy>do you mean two players in one company or two companies that can share resources together (including rail traffic)? ;)
16:25<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: don't you know #openttdcoop?
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16:26<dragonhorseboy> you like the former then I presume?
16:27<Ammler>doesn't really matter
16:27<Ammler>the problem is if you join a MP server (not from coop or Brianetta), you should stay there
16:28<Ammler>else your company is gone next day
16:28<Ammler>I like to play same map around a week or so
16:28<Ammler>just 1-2 hours per day
16:29<dragonhorseboy>I still remember playing two cooperative play maps some time ago while I was still able to find some people willing to download the mini-in folder ^-^
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i've been known playing the same savegame for months
16:34<Fingon>an average game for me lasts 10 minutes, speed mode
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16:38<dragonhorseboy>eddi heh :p
16:39<@peter1138>Fetched 10.6MB in 12s (842kB/s)
16:39<ln>oh, what's wrong with your connection?
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16:58<Roest>made any planets lately?
16:59<ln>who, slartibartfast?
16:59<Roest>slartibartfast just made norway
17:00<Rubidium>no, that one to replace the one that needed to be demolisched for the highway
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17:00<Roest>or did he made the whole thing and the price was just for norway
17:00<Prof_Frink>Roest: Well, not just Norway
17:00<Prof_Frink>He just liked doing crinkly coastlines
17:01*Roest goes off reading it again
17:01<Roest>i was always bad about remembering details from books i read
17:02-!-planetmaker [] has joined #openttd
17:02<Roest>is it against the good spirit to tell someone on the forum he's getting annoying?
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17:03<@Belugas>Roest, there are so many people on the forums who are sooooo stupid....
17:04<@Belugas>so, by all means, by my guest >:)
17:04<@Belugas>and me, meanwhile, i'm going home
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17:07<Prof_Frink>Belugas: s/forums/internets/
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, especially people who call themselves "prof"
17:15-!-Roest is now known as Prof_Roest
17:18*Prof_Roest is bored
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17:51<Roest>yexo bad example hehe
17:52<Yexo>damn, you're right
17:52<Roest>you can get rid of all one way signals there
17:52<Yexo>I'll post an explanation then :)
17:52<Roest>besides the signals that lead away are place wrong too
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17:53<Roest>you place signals where you want trains to wait, so leave space that trains can clear the junctions
17:53<Yexo>you mean they should be further away from the junction?
17:54<Roest>also about one way, read michis post at the end of the first page of this thread
17:54<Yexo>I know, but I want trains to leave as soon as possible, so i allow them to wait on the junction, because it's impossible to block other trains except those leaving the same way
17:54<Roest>yea but pbs does that anyway
17:55<Roest>you should turn on show reserved tracks, that shows how it does it
17:56<Roest>that's the beautiful thing about this patch, you only need one signal type, if you dont completely fuck it up
17:57<Yexo>Roest> yea but pbs does that anyway <-- I know, but if I place the signal right after the junction the trains can with a smaller gap
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18:42<mynetdude>do trains your layout get lost often?
18:43<mynetdude>and I noticed the game ends in 2051, and I have noticed others have taken their game all the way to 2069 is there a way to keep going beyond 2069 or 2051 for that matter :XD?
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18:59<Yexo>mynetdude: just don't stop playing when you get your score
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19:03<mynetdude>oh you mean it will let me continue on? :D
19:03<mynetdude>at 2051 it scores me?
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19:04<Yexo>at 2051 you get your score, but you can play on as long as you want
19:04<Yexo>there is even some ttdpatch savegame around in 9000 or something
19:04<mynetdude>Yexo awesome :D wished they had some perks for going beyond the score date
19:05<SmatZ>no, sorry :)
19:05<mynetdude>ah maybe someone will patch that in someday if they are up to it
19:05<ben_goodger>my strategem is to put the date back every couple of years so that it stays permanently in 2012
19:05<Tefad>OVER 9000
19:06<mynetdude>why 2012?
19:06<Tefad>that's when the mayans say the world ends ; )
19:06<ben_goodger>the grfs I'm using have niceness in that year
19:06<mynetdude>oh lol
19:06<Tefad>coincidence? i think not.
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19:08<mynetdude>sorry off topic, but if the mayans think the world ends in 2012, we are not far from it... shouldn't mankind already be doing something to prepare for it? Or are they just going to live on until we go "boom"? assuming that is what happens
19:09<teeg>Oh, I think Bush is trying to prepare us just fine
19:09<teeg>him and al gore
19:09<teeg>with all the "oooo we're all gonna die due to GLOBAL WARMING"
19:09<ben_goodger>I think it was a flood as opposed to a "boom"
19:09<teeg>and "you're ALL TERRORISTS thwwwphphphphp"
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>if i had an euro for each time somebody has told me the world would end... :p
19:09<Yexo>well, if the worlds ends, there's not much we can do anyway
19:09<Yexo>if there was, the world wouldn't end :P
19:10<mynetdude>good point
19:10<Prof_Frink>If I had a pound for every time the world ended, I'd have... £2.50
19:10<teeg>Yexo: well, if the world was going to end, and we all knew it, I'm sure there'd be a bit more fucking going on
19:10<ben_goodger>since there is not much evidence that the previous three or four mayan apocalypses happened, I doubt we have anything to worry about on 2012-12-26
19:10<mynetdude>its not within human powers/ability to stop it anyhow
19:11<Eddi|zuHause2>the only non-human end of the world is when the sun goes nova, which is like a couple of years away still...
19:11<Yexo>teeg: true, but if we were *sure* it was going to end, we couldn't stop it, else we wouldn't be sure
19:11<ben_goodger>of course it is, we just have to revert to a neolithic society in order to stop the nasty carbon
19:12<Yexo>enough offtopic for me now
19:12<mynetdude>ben_goodger thats alittle hard to do.. humans would not wand to devolve back to that
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>ben_goodger: good luck feeding 6 milliard people with a neolithic society ;)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>there's not much about "want" ;)
19:13<mynetdude>OTOH Eddi|zuHause2 made a good point that I didn't think about... but just try getting from San Francisco to New York in a few hours for a business conference you have to get to without jets
19:13<teeg>I'm sure we could live without returning to a neolithic society, but it would probably involve quite a drastic change in population numbers
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19:14<teeg>as in returning from 6-8 billion people to around 1-2 or so I guess. but good luck in achieving that.
19:14<stillunk1own>Some big change has to happen within the next few decades.
19:14<mynetdude>I don't see how the population would need to change, just things would need to be done differently
19:14<ben_goodger>er, that's "billion"
19:14<ben_goodger>6.5 billion, in fact
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>go learn real numbering systems :p 1 milliard = 1000 million, 1 billion = 1000 milliard
19:15<mynetdude>hmm anyway about ottd... is there a patch to allow you to make your existing map bigger?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>mynetdude: no chance
19:16<stillunk1own>Eddi|zuHause2: It depends on language/country.
19:16<ben_goodger>go unlearn nineteenth-century numbering systems. the post-horse-and-cart world uses the short scale
19:16<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, in every country except the USA, and the half-stupid british are successively adopting that...
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>nobody in germany uses "short scale"... germans don't even have a name for that
19:17<ben_goodger>no, the USA has always used the short scale. only quite old british people use the long scale, as we abandoned it in 1974
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>that is exactly what i said...
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19:19<Eddi|zuHause2>but that still makes 3/4 of the world not use the "short scale"
19:19<ben_goodger>let's all just use standard form, shall we?
19:20<ben_goodger>world population = 6.5 E 9
19:20<mynetdude>ben_goodger I agree, that'd be nice
19:20<Zuu>how about inventing a new stupid system that is neutral ;)
19:20<Sacro>ben_goodger: 6.5G ?
19:20<Prof_Frink>Sacro: No, we'll end up with people talking Gibi'rish
19:21<ben_goodger>Sacro: I've only seen that notation in command-line hard disk partitioners
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>"standard" ... i've not had such a good laugh in a long time :p
19:21<Sacro>ben_goodger: i use it a fair bit
19:21<stillunk1own>I don't think a prefix works without attaching it to something.
19:21<Sacro>tis shorter than *10^9
19:21<ben_goodger>in english, we call it standard form. synonyms include scientific notation (used by non-scientists who don't know what it's for)
19:22<mynetdude>so Eddi|zuHause2 why is it not possible to expand an existing map?
19:22<mynetdude>or connect two or more existing maps together
19:22<Zuu>mynetdude: Because it is a lot of work.
19:22<mynetdude>I suppose
19:23<Eddi|zuHause2>mynetdude: there's a row of "invisible" tiles at the border of the map, you can neither expand nor join these in any way
19:23<teeg>mynetdude: it could probably be done, but it would be a lot of work, and it might not even end up pretty
19:23<mynetdude>well the largest map you can even create is 2048x2048 anyhow
19:23<Zuu>It has recently been up for discussion on tt-forums I think.
19:23<Zuu>recently as in the last month or two :)
19:23<mynetdude>not too concerned about prettyness... but if you start off small and decide you like what you've done you'd like to expand on it
19:24<mynetdude>then again you can just start a new/bigger map
19:24<teeg>there's something to be said for having proper ambitions :P
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>it is not feasible in any way
19:24<Prof_Frink>Why not just write the numbers out in full?
19:24<mynetdude>Prof_Frink what do you mean?
19:24<Prof_Frink>It's not like there are numbers above 45,000,000,000
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>let's use the babylonic number system
19:24<mynetdude>oh thats old
19:25<mynetdude>but I do agree... we should standardize numbering systems globally... makes things easier to understand/comprehend and less need for conversion
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>because of that system we count time and angles in groups of 60
19:25<mynetdude>this world needs better/more standardization :P
19:25<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2 like the sundial?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>standardiSation ;)
19:26<mynetdude>uh its standardization for you in the USA
19:26<mynetdude>you UK english spell it with an S
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm speaking a foreign language ;)
19:27<mynetdude>well the thing is not that there is anything wrong with spelling it standardiSation vs Standardization...
19:27<Sacro>standardisation if you please
19:27<Sacro>mynetdude: English please
19:27<mynetdude>but I wonder which is most correct... well standardization is english c'mon now
19:27<Eddi|zuHause2>see... you people cannot even standardise your own language, how do you want to standardise "the world"...
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>well... except by invading them...
19:28<mynetdude>the thing I DO like about the UK english is colour it is spelled as it sounds, I don't know why US english decided to eliminate certain vowels
19:28<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2, I AGREE, but I didnt' say the US should do the standards...
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>well, when germany makes standards, you don't accept them anyway...
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>(-> A4 paper)
19:29<mynetdude>whose idea was A4?
19:29<mynetdude>We use A4, we call it legal size
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>germans introduced it
19:29<mynetdude>I see
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>no "legal" is not the same as A4
19:29<Prof_Frink>Neither is "letter"
19:29<mynetdude>how so? I thought we had our own equiv to A4 that being "legal"?
19:30<mynetdude>well I know A4 is not letter
19:30<Prof_Frink>And *everything* *always* wants to print on "letter"
19:30<mynetdude>see thats just the thing, I don't understand why we the whole world including the US can't just agree whether its their idea or ours
19:31<mynetdude>Prof_Frink well in theory you could delete those size presets and create your own as long as you know the paper size you can set the print boundaries and then the margins all you want
19:31<stillunk1own>mynetdude: The differences between us and uk come from the fact that someone in the us tried to eliminate quite a few french and latin influences.
19:31<mynetdude>I've had to do that for paper you wouldn't normally print on and I just took the measurements and input it into the software and the printer sees that data
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>as you can see, letter is slightly shorter, and legal slightly longer than A4, and both are slightly wider
19:32<mynetdude>stillunk1own, well I think they did eliminate a lot of latin AFAIK from what I understand the latin language is no longer used except in the scientific communities pretty much
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>A0 is defined as 1m² with a ratio of 1:sqrt(2)
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19:34<Eddi|zuHause2>A1 is A0 folded to half, with the same ratio
19:34<Eddi|zuHause2>A2 is A1 folded to half
19:34<Eddi|zuHause2>and so on
19:34<stillunk1own>mynetdude: The significance in science is not that big anymore, but the difference in spelling happened a long time after latin became a "dead" language.
19:36<mynetdude>stillunk1own ah lots have changed since I was taught why we say "homio sapiens" (or however you spell it) the biology teacher explained that Homio Sapiens is the latin way of saying Human.
19:36<mynetdude>I didn't know there were spelling variations and based on what I knew or didn't know it seemed like thats what it was
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, it is Homo Sapiens Sapiens
19:37<mynetdude>ah ok so I had it spelled wrong, my bad :(
19:37<Sacro>mynetdude: not sure about you but i'd prnounce it "culer"
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>and "Human" is derived from that
19:37<mynetdude>Culer? thats how you pronounced Homo Sapiens?
19:37<Sacro>no, Colour
19:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd pronounce it "Kalor" ;)
19:38<mynetdude>oh, you mean the colour was not pronounced "color" for you?
19:38<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: That's bottled gas
19:38<mynetdude>ah see over here most pronounce it as it is... color
19:38<Sacro>Prof_Frink: that's what i was thinking
19:38<Zuu>Why not go all way as Norway and spell things just as they sound. And have funny names for things by the way. :)
19:39<mynetdude>Zuu such as?
19:39<Prof_Frink>Zuu: Eh, if you want to say things as they's spelled, and not worry about word order or capitalisation, go back to Latin.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not sure i get the "bottled glass" reference
19:39<mynetdude>this is really interesting :) I don't mean to be ignorant... but really this is all interesting some of it I had forgotten about
19:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i love capitalisation ;)
19:40<Zuu>mynetdude: example of what?
19:40<mynetdude>but anyway... the city names in ottd what are they based from?
19:40<mynetdude>Zuu words in norway as they sound?
19:40<mynetdude>I know you can get a newgrf to change city names
19:41<Zuu>ock (and)
19:41<mynetdude>ock is for and?
19:41<Zuu>J where you pronounce J and not G as in Swedish.
19:41<Zuu>mynetdude: Yes
19:42<Zuu>Swedes spell it och.
19:42<mynetdude>that sounds like you're about to say octopus
19:42<ben_goodger>Prof_Frink: I don't think the concept of capital and miniscule letters actually occurred during the development of latin
19:42<mynetdude>ock/och that's easy enough
19:42<ben_goodger>scots spell it och also
19:42<ben_goodger>though it means "oh", as in "oh yes", there, I think
19:43<mynetdude>thats another confusing thing about language... you can have the same word mean so many things in various countries
19:43<Eddi|zuHause2>when someone around here says "ooch" he means "auch" [meaning "also"]
19:43-!-planetmaker is now known as pm|away
19:43<Eddi|zuHause2>but i suppose nobody of you can pronounce that correctly ;)
19:44<stillunk1own>It's not that hard.
19:44<mynetdude>anybody see my screenie of my map?
19:44<mynetdude>and I noticed you can play on heightmaps... what is that?
19:44<Eddi|zuHause2>heightmaps means you generate a map from a picture
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>especially useful for real world maps
19:45<mynetdude>what kind of picture?
19:45<mynetdude>is there any place specific I can get blank heightmaps?
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>one with either 16 colo[u]rs or a greyscale
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>there are probably lots in the forums
19:46<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2 you don't have to be so silly to type color or colour, I am perfectly ok with either :D
19:46<Zuu>I think there is even a HOWTO for that in the forums.
19:46<mynetdude>cool will look around
19:50<mynetdude>is 12904 the latest nightly?
19:50-!-sickie88 [~sickie@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:50*mynetdude wants to see if there is something different in the nightly
19:51<Eddi|zuHause2>@openttd commit
19:51<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: Commit by rubidium :: r12905 /branches/0.6 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2008-04-25 19:27:27 UTC)
19:51<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: [0.6] -Backport from trunk r12904, r12876:
19:51<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: - Fix: Remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash [FS#1953] (r12904)
19:51<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: - Fix: GCC on FreeBSD does not support -dumpmachine causing configure to fail. Use g++ instead [FS#1928] (r12876)
19:52<Eddi|zuHause2>with all the backporting, there is probably not too much new right now
19:52<mynetdude>ah I see 12905 is the latest... but it doesn't show that on the site yet
19:52<Zuu>mynetdude: You can look in the file changes.log if you have downloaded it.
19:52<mynetdude>sorry, backporting means?
19:52<mynetdude>Zuu oh ok I'm downloading it now
19:53<Eddi|zuHause2>porting from the current development branch [trunk] to the previous release branch [0.6], to prepare a bugfix release
19:53<Zuu> is also useful to follow the changes in trunk.
19:53-!-Osai^zZz is now known as Osai^zZz`off
19:54<mynetdude>ah I just saw the shortlog
19:54<mynetdude>the latest 12904 will not save trams
19:55<Eddi|zuHause2>you read it wrong
19:55<SmatZ>it would be pretty useless :)
19:55<SmatZ>it will remove trams from savegames saved with OTTD versions that didn't support trams
19:55<Eddi|zuHause2>but you don't have old savegames, so it does not affect you
19:57<Eddi|zuHause2>mynetdude: the most important ones from user point of view are the commits tagged "-Feature:"
19:58<mynetdude>oh sorry I am new to the dev stuff
19:58<SmatZ>but sometimes an interesting change/feature is hidden in a decent message ;)
19:58<mynetdude>ah ok so it removes the trams on older savegames because the older saves would not support it anyhow
19:59<mynetdude>ah ok SmatZ you're the one who fixed the tram from older savegames :D
19:59<SmatZ>yes :)
19:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, on very old savegames, trams would have behaved like busses, so when loading them now they would end up without rails
20:00<Eddi|zuHause2>which would be... bad...
20:00<SmatZ>and FS#1953 means it was a flyspray task with number 1953 -
20:01<mynetdude>ah I'm only interested in features you guys are working on, not so much of the dev itself
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20:03<SmatZ>finding and fixing bugs is fun :)
20:03<Zuu>mynetdude: If you are on Windows you can use an updater to always get the latest nightly when you play. (For Linux Ammler have created a bash script available at the openttdcoop blog)
20:03<mynetdude>Zuu I have the stable release, I'll keep that, as I am not sure if I play multiplayer if the versions have to be the same
20:04<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, versions have to match exactly
20:05<mynetdude>thought so
20:05<Zuu>servers that uses nightlies are more rare that stable servers but they exist.
20:05<Eddi|zuHause2>most significant changes between stable and nightly are the improved orders and station animation
20:05<mynetdude>hmm can't get the updater, sharespace has stopped allowing downloads due to the uploader's limit
20:06<mynetdude>improved orders... stations... say no more
20:06<Zuu>mynetdude: The linked page have two updaters, the second one should work.
20:06<ln>it seems has some weird definition for "everything".
20:07<mynetdude>Zuu ok I'll look, I only use windows for now
20:07<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2, I assume the station animation is for custom newgrfs that include animated stations
20:07<mynetdude>I mean the station animation improvement... that is
20:08<Zuu>Having made the second one myself I though it would be fair to include not only my program but other exsisting too on the wiki. Someone independent have to decide what to do about the updater by desalotor.
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20:09<mynetdude>omg I found one of the hidden features
20:10-!-stillunk1own [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:10<mynetdude>not only can you make trees invisible... you can make them disappear completely
20:10<mynetdude>the same for anything else you can make invisible
20:10<mynetdude>now that is RAD!!!
20:10*SmatZ is pleased to hear that
20:11*mynetdude hopes to see that in some 060 update
20:11<Zuu>not a hidden feature I would say. :)
20:11<mynetdude>well lolz its only hidden to me, cuz I am just exploring
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20:11<mynetdude>SmatZ you make that? :D
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>no, none of the "Feature" commits get in a 0.6 update
20:11<SmatZ>yes :)
20:11<mynetdude>cool... keep up the good work opensource pwns
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>only "Fix" ones
20:12<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2 ah so you saying a new update/version would have to be made for feature commits?
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>features go into 0.7
20:12<mynetdude>neat... how often do new versions get put out? I guess that varies?
20:13<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd not expect 0.7 before next year
20:13<mynetdude>I'm guessing it takes a very long time to compile a new version?
20:13<mynetdude>at least a stable one...
20:13<Zuu>mynetdude: And when you get bored by the nightlies (which is hard as fast as they evolve) you can try BuiltOTTD (found in development sections of tt-forums) If you are lucky it works and you can compile your own builds of any revision and of the branches that compile in windows easily.
20:14<SmatZ>minute or two, depends on your hardware
20:14<Eddi|zuHause2>compile? about 4 minutes here ;)
20:14<SmatZ>or 4 :)
20:14<mynetdude>SmatZ, I noticed the invisibility/extended invis works to varying degrees, some make it completely disappear other just only remove the "shadow"
20:14<SmatZ>mynetdude: invisibility should make that shadow disappear
20:14<mynetdude>so why do they only do stable releases once a year?
20:15<mynetdude>it doesn't not on the city/town buildings
20:15<mynetdude>it does for the industries, infact it makes their whole structure disappear as well
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>there is more to a release than compiling
20:15<SmatZ>mynetdude: it should, maybe it is hard to see, but it works this way
20:15<Zuu>bugfixing for example
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>if you just want compiling, there are the nightlies
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>they get compiled every night
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>where "night" is 20:00 CET
20:16<mynetdude>SmatZ well first you click on the button you want to make invisible... trees for example
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning 6 hours ago
20:16<mynetdude>the first button makes the trees physical features disappear, but the shadows remain, the 2nd button makes them disappear altogether
20:16<SmatZ>mynetdude: yes
20:17<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause2, I see
20:17<SmatZ>if you have only the second button active, everything is drawn solid
20:17<mynetdude>SmatZ what I am saying is it is the same for industries as well however town buildings don't completely disappear as they should
20:17<mynetdude>SmatZ yeah I noticed having the 2nd button only active does not have any effect it seems
20:18<SmatZ>mynetdude: it works the same way as transparency, even if houses are transparent there are visible ground sprites
20:18<Eddi|zuHause2>yes it does, it decides what happens when you press the "X" key
20:18<SmatZ>with shadow above
20:18<SmatZ>it depeds how the GRF is done
20:19<SmatZ>if there is a ground sprite with any special color / image
20:19<SmatZ>or not
20:19<mynetdude>SmatZ, well in the stable build, you press the invis you see the ground sprites and the translucent shadow
20:20<SmatZ>for industries, there is no special sprite in some cases, so it looks as if there was grass
20:20<mynetdude>however I noticed in your feature, certain objects completely disappear, as in no sprites appear, industries leave no sprites when you activate the 2nd button which is not the case for town buildings
20:20<mynetdude>oh ok thats my point
20:20<SmatZ>mynetdude: can you post a screenshot?
20:21<SmatZ>mynetdude: look at steel mill or iron ore mine
20:21<SmatZ>they have ground sprites
20:21<SmatZ>but forest, powerplant, ... have only grass as ground sprites
20:21<SmatZ>when you turn on transparency
20:21<SmatZ>you will see grass with shadow
20:22<SmatZ>when you turn on invisibility, the shadow disappears
20:22<mynetdude>hmm subsequent screenshot saving does not work in the game
20:22<SmatZ>how so
20:23<mynetdude>the game is paused or is in the same month/year I do two screenshots in a row, basically it overwrites
20:23<SmatZ>no, it shouldn't
20:23<Eddi|zuHause2>it should call them #1 #2 and stuff
20:23<SmatZ>it shoud create "name data.png" and "name date #1.png"
20:24<mynetdude>ah nevermind, I wasn't paying attention
20:24<Zuu>Bed for me, good night all
20:25<mynetdude>thanks Zuu
20:26<SmatZ>mynetdude: it should work this way
20:27<mynetdude>oh ok so it was intended to work that way
20:28<mynetdude>actually having certain sprites there would be a plus, just removing the opaque shadow would be best
20:28<mynetdude>rather than removing the sprite entirely
20:28<mynetdude>however I presume there is not much in the way of control over that
20:32-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:32*mynetdude is looking for zuu's updater don't see it in that thread
20:34<mynetdude>awesome on the new goto order stuff
20:34<SmatZ>yes :)
20:35<mynetdude>"conditional order jump" that sounds neat
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20:36<mynetdude>hmm not sure I understand how conditional order jump works...
20:40<mynetdude>does anybody use the feature "purchase land for later use"? If so, it would be nice to do an area select of more than one tile, right now you can only click on a single tile at a time
20:40<SmatZ>mynetdude: suggested many times
20:40<SmatZ>but it would be too easy to block other players in multiplayer
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20:48<mynetdude>SmatZ, hmm well then maybe disable it for MP only?
20:48<mynetdude>if that is even possible???
20:48<SmatZ>mynetdude: it would be possible
20:48<mynetdude>I know the pause/speed-accel buttons are disabled for all players except the host
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20:50<mynetdude>because in single player, being able to select multiple tiles for property buys is worth it and kind of pointless for doing single click however Single click tile purchasing is painful if you are wanting to do a large area even in multiplayer but I can understand that it could even block other players... either I would disable it in multiplayer to only use single click or make it so they can only have a % of purchased/unused land
20:53<mynetdude>I'll bbl
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22:58<mynetdude>can I play 060 games in nightly versions? or play nightly vers games in 060?
23:01<mynetdude>:( there ought to be a converter
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23:05<Sacro>mynetdude: yes, no
23:05<Sacro>yes, maybe
23:05<mynetdude>well conversion would be difficult
23:05<Sacro>i'm not sure if there's been a savegame bump
23:06<mynetdude>hmm, but I know you can play older savegames in newer stable versions AFAIK
23:06-!-elmex [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:06<mynetdude>the thing is if you use a feature that doesn't exist in a stable version and try to play it there you might have some problems
23:07-!-elmex_ is now known as elmex
23:09<mynetdude>sarco do you do any coding... I can't remember...
23:11-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: night all.]
23:18<Sacro>mynetdude: use tab to autocomplete my nick
23:18<Sacro>and yes i do
23:20<mynetdude>Sacro, I usually do use tab :)
23:20*mynetdude needs to get a script that highlights my name
23:20<Sacro>i thought mIRC did it
23:21<mynetdude>I guess it does, I just don't know how or at least it can be done by a script
23:21<mynetdude>its not automatic AFAIK you have to set it in the options
23:24<Sacro>i use x-chat or irssi
23:25<mynetdude>ah you're on linux
23:25<mynetdude>what kind of stuff do you like coding for ottd/ttdpatch?
23:25<mynetdude>lots of coders in here :)
23:25<Sacro>i just mess around with openttd
23:25<Sacro>i'm not always on linux
23:25<Sacro>i just have a bouncer
23:26<mynetdude>ah ok
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23:53<Sacro> <- Isn't that in breach of the licence?
23:53<Sacro>he has no fucking idea about the game
23:53<Sacro>"OpenTTD, the Open stands for Open-Source"
23:53<Sacro>"TTD stands for Tycoon something something"
23:54<Sacro>"It's basically just an open source version of what looks to be simcity"
23:54<Sacro>it looks nothing like simcity
23:55<mynetdude>kinda looks like SimCity 2000 though
23:55<mynetdude>but even SC2k had better graphics, actually SC2.0 looked more like TTD
23:55<Sacro>mynetdude: it looks nothing like simcity
23:55<Sacro>i played both
23:56<mynetdude>let me go find the original simcity (pre 2000)
23:56<mynetdude>I know you can play it on the simcity website
23:56<Sacro>also, TTD doesn't stand for anything
23:56<Sacro>well, not in OpenTTD
---Logclosed Sat Apr 26 00:00:49 2008