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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-09

---Logopened Fri May 09 00:00:04 2008
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01:08<Tefad>secondary industries would be factories, steel plants, etc.
01:19<hylje>secondaries produce no stuff on their own
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01:34<CoRnJuLiOx>so primary industries (coal, iron ore, etc) don't increase production over time?
01:41<Noldo>they do, but it's somewhat complicated
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02:07<CoRnJuLiOx>wow. coal is pretty damn profitable. set up a small route between a coal mine and a power plant, 2 trains with 8 cars and ordered to take full load at the mines nets a surprisingly large amount of money.
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03:00<blindcoder>CoRnJuLiOx: friend of mine has a farm with about 700 items of livestock a month, so they do grow just fine :)
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03:09<Cap_J_L_Picard>Roest: Morning
03:09<Cap_J_L_Picard>about time I got some sleep...
03:09<Tefad>i hate your handle btw
03:10<Tefad>i always get the picard song stuck in my head when i see it
03:10<Roest>dont hate the captain
03:10<Cap_J_L_Picard>Make it so.
03:11<Cap_J_L_Picard>He talks in one incredibly long sentence going from topic to topic, it's quite hypnotic.
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03:47<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13023 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Revert (r1444): Revert changes to multihead engine weight -- the original values were correct.
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03:52<Roest>took quite a while to realize that then
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03:54<@peter1138>@openttd commit 1444
03:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Commit by truelight :: r1444 /trunk (20 files in 2 dirs) (2005-01-09 14:45:19 UTC)
03:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: -Fix: fixed weight for double-head trains (and with that the acceleration)
03:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: (now maglev lvl4 can reach their top speed, and are faster than lvl3)
03:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: (Tnx to Darkvater :))
03:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: -Fix: Buy Vehicle GUI now shows HPs bigger than 32000 correctly
03:54<@peter1138>^ wrong way to fix acceleration
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03:55<Gekz>thats a massive revert
03:55<Roest>what he didn't tell, he also reverted all changes in between
03:56<Noldo>in one file?
03:56<Roest>shsh dont talk reason
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05:07<Ammler>Is there need of patching town names in OTTD anymore, or should we use NewGRFs for that anyway?
05:11<Eddi|zuHause2>you can use newgrfs
05:11<Eddi|zuHause2>there were some examples floating around somewhere
05:13<Ammler>well, I have made the GRF.
05:14<Ammler>ottd uses real names for swiss towns, so it was more the question, should I also make a patch for it
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05:15<Ammler>(minor changes)
05:20<Eddi|zuHause2>existing town name generators should not ever be changed, because it would break savegames
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05:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13024 /trunk/src/ (16 files): -Codechange: do not use WE_MOUSELOOP when WE_TICK suffices, rename WE_4 to something more descriptive and correct some (completely incorrect) comments.
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05:35<Ammler>I have another question releated to town names, why aren't those names not saved like you edit names in scenario editor? I thought, you need the grf only for generating.
05:36<@peter1138>you thought wrong
05:36<Eddi|zuHause2>no need to save them when you can regenerate them deterministically
05:36<Eddi|zuHause2>hysterically, there were only very few slots for custom saved strings
05:37<Ammler>but that has changed, before town names was introduces, hasn't?
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05:38<Eddi|zuHause2>what he said :p
05:39<Ammler>the limit for names is now almost unlimited, isn't? :-)
05:39<@peter1138>isn't *it*
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09:23<Bachy_>Are u guys (and Girls) a live .. or u just crashing :)
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09:36<Rubidium>think they're enjoying sunshine, vacation and more fun things
09:36<Bachy_>Sunshine ...
09:37<Bachy_>great .. I would love sunshine
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09:39<Bachy_>have any of your guys been playing around with the new grf pack NewCargo
09:40<Bachy_>There are some new industries there, fishning ground and brewery, but I cant seem to get it to work
09:40<Roest>more fun thing?
09:42<Rubidium>watching some series
09:43<@Belugas>working. really enjoyable activity
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09:43<Roest>which ones Rubidium?
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09:49<Roest>Teen mugged for copy of Grand Theft Auto IV. Attackers caught after their wanted level jumps to three stars
09:49<Yorick> doesn't work ;)
09:49<Yorick>yes, the new strings are nicely displayed, but the content isn't displayed anymore
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10:04<Rubidium>Yorick: it never properly worked as it's not finished
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11:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13025 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove the need for two WindowEvents.
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>looks like an incomplete sentence to me
12:29<Sacro>too many commas
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>the commas are just fine ;)
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12:36<Maedhros>well, it only needs the comma after "accident" - the other two are superfluous
12:40<trd>Whatever "reall" means.
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>in german, you'd leave out the comma before "and" [because that's a weird special case], and you would probably set another comma before "who"
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if the "and" rule got changed in the latest reform
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and between "you know" and "you have" there must be another comma
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>after the other "know", too
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>general rule: between any two finite verb forms, there must be a comma
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>[except for the "and" special case]
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12:47<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think it's bad style to put a comma before and in English, but in this case it really doesn't seem necessary to me
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12:52<Sacro>eek, tv licencing peoples
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>"Mitnichten hat die Nase meiner Wirtin, deren Namen Eulalia, wie Sie die Güte, sich zu erinnern, hatten, lautet, geblutet, aber mich hatte morgens die Polizei, da ein Fahrrad, das ein Mann, der eine graue Jacke, die vielfach geflickt war, trug, fuhr, mit einem Auto, das auf der Strasse, die über die Geleise, die vom Bahnhof, der unmittelbar bei meiner Wohnung liegt, kommen, führt, entlangkam, zusammenstiess, gebeten, meine
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>Beobachtungen als Zeuge zu Protokoll zu geben."
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13:11<Roujin>hi there
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13:23<hylje>a kangaroo did it
13:24<ln>.jp is austrian and means prison.
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13:33<Roujin>devs: <-- dynamite tool unification part two. i think it can be included without any problems...
13:35<Roujin>I'm trying to break my terraforming patch into tiny parts for better chance of including :P
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14:02<SmatZ>Roujin: do you have your patch anywhere as whole?
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14:05<Wolf01>Roujin, about the terraforming patch, I meant I would like to be able to plane a part of the map, but keeping intact the terrain above/below the start tile level
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14:07<Wolf01>I offten want to plane some
14:07<Wolf01>mountains but keeping the coast line
14:12<Roujin>SmatZ: the last complete patch is found here: however, that is now again some revisions old, and I've got a newer version on my hard drive (only codewise improvements)
14:13<Roujin>Wolf01: in the scedit or in the game? I understand what you mean, but I really don't see the need for it :/
14:13<Wolf01>in the editor
14:13<SmatZ>Roujin: good idea, it is really long :)
14:13<Wolf01>eh, maybe you don't draw scenarios
14:14<Roujin>Wolf01: I agree, in the scedit it might be useful as a advanced tool - however as I said i wouldn't integrate it into the normal lower and raise with CTRL
14:15<Roujin>you could add it as new tools, only available in the editor (as you do with your patch)
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14:18<Roujin>SmatZ: yes, and I can logically split it up in different stuff.. this is a part of it that's just a fix.. i'd be glad if it would be included, so i can try to split off the next part and see if it's fine to include aswell ;)
14:19<Roujin>this is also a part split off from the whole patch, but it changes behavior, and I don't know how you devs are thinking about it
14:21<Roujin>it changes behavior of area raise and lower - right now they raise / lower the start tile of the dragged area by one and levels the rest to that level. --- My patch changes it to "look for the deepest pit / the highest peak in the area and raise/lower them by one"
14:22<Roujin>that's the way the big raise/lower tool works in the scenario editor
14:22<SmatZ>I like that drag&terraform for SE - but why do you change the functionality to "look for the deepest pit / the highest peak in the area and raise/lower them by one"
14:23<SmatZ>is it the way it is usually used?
14:23<Roujin>it is the way the big_raise/lower tool in scedit works...
14:24<Roujin>with big_raise/lower i mean if in the scedit you click this up_arrow to increase your terraforming selector to something up to 8*8 or so...
14:26<Roujin>and someone in my forum thread said that the area raise/lower is weird the way it is now and would be better if it were like the big raise/lower tools in the editor -- that's why I included this in my patch
14:26<Roujin>but if you decide that their behavior should stay as it is, I can scrap this part and split off the other parts of my patch...
14:28<SmatZ>I can't say
14:29<Roujin>well, there's also another thing, that's clearly not for me to decide: there's some comment in terraforming code if this big_terraform tool in the scedit should be removed some time, because we now have the levelling tool
14:31<Roujin>and since my patch, raise/lower can also be dragged (in scedit not yet in trunk!), which makes the big_raise/lower tools somehow redundant...
14:32<Roujin>but as I said that's not for me to decide...
14:34<Roujin>SmatZ: if I split off drag_area raise/lower for scedit without the change of functionality, it will get a bit confusing... if i set the size to 4x4 and click an area, it will behave differently than if i set it to size 1 and drag&drop the area of 4x4
14:35<@Belugas>i want diagonal selection tool...
14:37<Roujin>Okay, belugas prefers diagonal over drag&draw. :P one part of my patch stroke out.
14:37*planetmaker would like to see that, too :)
14:37<@Belugas>did i said that Roujin???
14:38<Roujin>they kind of conflict with each other though... since we have only CTRL as a valid modifier key iirc?
14:39<Roujin>or do you want to introduce ALT? :P
14:39<Rubidium>ALT would kinda fail as modifier key
14:39<@Belugas>did i even said that Roujin???
14:40<Rubidium>ALT+drag means drag the complete window in quite a lot of X's window managers
14:43<Roujin>no you didn't say that, sorry
14:47<Roujin>i'm just drawing my own conclusions. sorry if I'm annoying anyone
14:50<@Belugas>no you don't
14:50<@Belugas>just that the conclusions are a bit premature :)
15:16<Roujin>[jump to something totally different] german government sucks >< they are making new laws against so called "killer games" :-o
15:18<Roujin>instead of searching the cause of some freaks going berserk at the parents / social surrounding they are blaming the video game industry
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15:20<Phantasm>Roujin: There actually is a correlation there.
15:21<Phantasm>Though, the correlation is negative. :)
15:21<Wolf01>in Italy we are on the shit, 2 times
15:21<Wolf01>clowns at govern :|
15:23<Roujin>Phantasm: there are different theories about that. I don't know which one is true (numbers can be faked so easily :/), but in ANY case, they are making it hard for _adults_ to get their hands on such games, which in my opinion is breaking a basic right
15:23<Wolf01>I'm going out, bye
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15:24<Alberth>Roujin: Just a matter of economics. Giving additional rules to an industry is cheap. Finding the bad kids is expensive.
15:25<Rubidium>with banning bad games you'll cause the games to be baught (copied) more than when it would not be banned
15:26<Roujin>yes, and that's what's making me furious.. the bad part is that the old people who have no idea about computer games are all buying it from the politicians ><
15:26<Roujin>they say like "great that they are doing something now against this evil" or something
15:30<Alberth>There are quite more severe problems in that area, like reduced privacy just about everywhere, all in the name of fighting terrorism, or commercial exploitation.
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15:38<Alberth>Is there a function available to clip a value between a lower and an upper bound?
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15:49<Eddi|zuHause><Roujin> and someone in my forum thread said that the area raise/lower is weird the way it is now and would be better if it were like the big raise/lower tools in the editor -- that's why I included this in my patch <-- i agree to that
15:51<@peter1138>i don't
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>i hated the way the drag&drop lower/raise works since the beginning
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>especially that the "raise" tool also lowers terrain and vice versa
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>it makes them practically useless for me
15:53<@Belugas>how so?
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>because when i want to raise the bottom of a valley, i want the surrounding mountains to keep intact
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>but mountains are practically never rectangularly set up around the valley
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>so when i want to cover the valley with one drag, i always have mountains also selected, which then get screwed up
15:55<Sacro>"So Large??? Oh s*** you're an genious."
15:57<@Belugas>you are strange, Eddi|zuHause
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i am strange, i don't want to flatten the entire map!!!
15:57<SmatZ>I like that raise+level feature ....
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16:12<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, are you using a flame trower to light up a cigaret (give that you would evenutally be a smoker) ?
16:12<@Belugas>of course
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause>er... what?
16:12<@Belugas>than, raising the bottom of a valley may require something else thatn drag-select ;)
16:13<@Belugas>flame thrower == drag select
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>apart from not being a smoker
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>the analogy is flawed
16:14<@Belugas>flawless, yo mean ;)
16:14<@Belugas>for delicate operations, use delicate tools
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>like, nobody lights a match [= single raise/lower] anymore to light a cigarette, everybody uses a lighter [= drag and drop area]
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>flamethrower = dragging all over the map
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>raising a medium valley is not a "delicate" operation
16:17<@Belugas>flame thrower == nuclear bomb
16:18<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Nuculer
16:18<@Belugas>atomic bomb == dragging all over the map
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16:19<Prof_Frink>Belugas: H-bomb == dragging from N corner to a convenient viewport showing S corner
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16:23<Lakie>Surely that wouldn't work as you can't remove some of the tile classes from the terrain in normal gameplay?
16:23<Lakie>Like the transmitters.
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>the point i am making, for any possible purpose that i could use a drag and drop tool, the current implementation is totally useless
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and that a little modification could solve that
16:25<Lakie>I suppose it could, but then again isn't that what the level tool is for?
16:25<Lakie>Oh, I see that would level mountains too.
16:27<Lakie>From what I understand, if you were to use the raise tool over a large space ovf varying hieghts, one would expect all the selected terrain to be raised by one. (Logic only, not the actual reality, as I've not tried it).
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>there are different opinions about that
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>basically there are 4 options
16:28<Lakie>Indeed there are.
16:29<Lakie>I understand that people may want it to only raise the 'lowest' level.
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16:29<Lakie>However, it currently acts as the leveling tool, and I feel that is incorrect for the role.
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>1) the current implementation is that it raises the start tile, and then levels to that level (also lowering mountains)
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>2) my favourite would be to raise the start tile, and then levels to that level if below that level (keeping intact mountains)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>3) like the area raise tool in the scenario editor only raise the lowest level by one
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>4) your suggestion to keep the shape of the landscape, only make each tile one level higher
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>lower land tool analogous
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16:33<@peter1138>i thought you meant like the scenario editor's size gumpf
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i could live with that, too, because it also keeps intact mountains, you just need to drag over the same area multiple times possibly
16:36<Lakie>Check if everything is selected at this height, if not, raise other tiles to this height otherwise raise all by 1, is the logic for that tool, or something very similar. (Again might be different in OpenTTD)
16:37<Lakie>Nope, it does the raise lowest by one concept
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Lakie: the fixed area raise tool in the scenario editor does that, but not dragging the single raise tool
17:05<Lakie>I know
17:05<Lakie>I ws wondering if its possible to have the drag tool call that function and if it was re-usable to such a purpose
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i have never actually used the scenario editor in TTD, only in TTO
17:06<Lakie>But meh, I'm sure someone else would have a better idea.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Lakie: that's what roujins patch does, unify the level tools, so you can exchange the functionality
17:07<Lakie>Then that sounds about right
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>the question is, is the functionality change wanted, and in which way change it
17:08<Lakie>Should hav figured someone would have already done it, heh, so used to TTdpatch were its a write it yourself job.
17:12<[1]Roujin>Lakie: it is impossible to reuse the function the scedit uses with its BIG tools, because that is one big ugly hack basically
17:13<Lakie>Fair enough.
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>arghh... you have the wrong colour :p
17:14<[1]Roujin>in my patch i wrote a new command function for raising and lowering areas with the behavior the scedit tools have, then have the scedit tools use my new function instead of their old hacky code
17:15<Lakie>The other logical alternative would be to write a function which takes a start pointer and a size, and have the scenerio editor call that.
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17:17<Lakie>Fair enough, Roujin, sounds like how I would have done it to be honest.
17:18<Lakie>So whats the major issue, Eddi?
17:19<[1]Roujin>the major issue (if i may answer instead) seems to be that people have different views of which behavior is the best
17:20<[1]Roujin>so, i'm taking that part of my patch out for now..
17:20<[1]Roujin>and try getting the other stuff in trunk ;)
17:21<Lakie>That is true, and unfortunately, there is no real solution, however I dislike it currently just using level area, as I feel that is not correct, especially as it has its own button.
17:21<[1]Roujin>i can still have the functionality change of area raise/lower as a standalone patch for people who like that behavior better..
17:22<[1]Roujin>maybe some time in future there will be a proper way of having multiple tools/behaviors at once in the game and freely select between them, with an all-new GUI of some sorts..
17:24<Lakie>Well, writing a whole new gui for it sounds rather painful, and again I don't agree with it just calling another tools code, but I'm not an OpenTTD dev, so my opinion doesn't count for much.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, adding buttons to the landscaping toolbar should not be the hardest job :p
17:26<[1]Roujin>you could split it up in three commands, "CmdRaiseByOneAndLevel", "CmdLowerByOneAndLevel", "CmdLevel" - but why do that if those three will be mostly doing the same thing, and instead one can have a command that raises by x and then levels, where x is set to -1, 0 or 1 for whatever we need?
17:29<Lakie>Because that may not have the desired effect especially if you are trying to follow the editors current behaviour of only raising the lowest tiles selected?
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17:29<Lakie>Or only lowering the heights
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17:30<[1]Roujin>err.. in my patch, where it raises only the lowest / lowers only the highest, they have gotten an own command
17:31<[1]Roujin>only in trunk, where they are _not_ like the scedit tools, but rather like the level tool (only with +1 or -1), they use the same Command as levelling
17:33<Lakie>Ah, yes sorry.
17:33<Lakie>In my opinion following the editors methods would be more understandable that just levelling if its a drag...
17:34<Lakie>I just see it as redudant because there is already a tool to do that. :)
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17:41<[1]Roujin>though it would need a quite high amount of clicks (first raise, then select level tool and level the area starting with the raised edge)
17:44<Lakie>True, I guess it'd have to be an extra two buttons. Heh.
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's what shortcuts are for :p
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18:10<[1]Roujin>another thing i've never understood while messing with terraform stuff is..
18:10<[1]Roujin>.. why the heck is there an exploding sound for the level tool instead of the crrrrrp sound?
18:11<[1]Roujin>i THINK i know why, but that means they have done it to solve a problem in a very very hacky way :P
18:11<SmatZ>I think you are wrong
18:12<[1]Roujin>then do enlighten me, please
18:12<[1]Roujin>why does levelling make "boom"? :D
18:13<SmatZ> case DDSP_LEVEL_AREA:
18:13<SmatZ> DoCommandP(end_tile, start_tile, 0, CcPlaySound10, CMD_LEVEL_LAND);
18:13<SmatZ>CcPlaySound10 = BOOM
18:13<[1]Roujin>yes, i know that line of code
18:13<SmatZ>replace it with CcTerraform
18:13<[1]Roujin>i didn't mean "why IS it like that", but "why did they code it like that"?
18:14<[1]Roujin>i know i know
18:14<SmatZ>it should do the "crunch" sound then
18:14<[1]Roujin>that causes problems though
18:14<[1]Roujin>side effects
18:14<SmatZ>I don't know why it is done this way
18:14<SmatZ>eg. I don't see any "hacky" way there
18:14<[1]Roujin>you see, CcTerraform does not only play a sound
18:15<[1]Roujin>it also displays a red highlighted tile if it did not succeed
18:16<[1]Roujin>and the levelling command does not have an error message...
18:16<[1]Roujin>because of its nature of being able to _partly_ succeed and _partly_ fail
18:16<SmatZ>raise + level can succeed only "partly"
18:17<SmatZ>but well, in the time "level land" was introduced, the code was very different
18:17<SmatZ>you can have a look 10000 revisions back if you want :)
18:17<SmatZ>hmm even r1 had level land
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>there are pre-r1 packs out there somewhere
18:19<[1]Roujin>ok, let's not argue about that :P but from a non-codewise point of view, why would levelling make the dynamite sound instead of the terraforming sound?
18:19<[1]Roujin>i mean, i don't see any explosions when using the level tool
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i never noticed that discrepancy before someone told me
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>but i do find it weird now
18:21<Lakie>Feel free to fix it if you like.
18:22<Lakie>From a logic point of standing a partical complete should probably still show which tiles failed?
18:23<Lakie>view, shouldn't *
18:23<[1]Roujin>oh, tileS are not possible to highlight with the current system anyways, only one tile...
18:23<Lakie>Ah, fair enough
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18:31*Sacro wants to test some patches
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>no! don't cut yourself!
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18:48<Sacro>where has the total tree transparency gone?
18:52<[1]Roujin>it's now in the transparency gui
18:53<[1]Roujin>there you can set up invisibility of ALL the things you can make transparent now
18:53<[1]Roujin>and with CTRL-click lock certain options you don't want to change when pressing 'x'
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19:14<Sacro> [1]Roujin it sucks
19:20<[1]Roujin>if you dislike it, go join this guy in his thread:
19:22<Sacro>that i shall
19:23<Sacro>can't be bothered now
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19:31<[1]Roujin>please do explain how fully customizable and lockable transparency options "suck" compared to some hacky hack hacked into the old transparency option using a patch switch
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23:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13026 /trunk/src/ (airport_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Codechange[FS#1999]: Further Dynamite Tool Unification.(Roujin)
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---Logclosed Sat May 10 00:00:41 2008