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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-12

---Logopened Mon May 12 00:00:54 2008
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01:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13059 /3rdparty/squirrel/sqstdlib/sqstdstring.cpp: [Squirrel] -Codechange: silence warnings about not checked argument types for a few sprintf calls.
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03:09<cjk>I am seeing rdtsc() in the game's code, but is not that not-so-good when the TSC is not constant?
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03:13<Rubidium>the number of processor ticks is imo a better way to check how long a short piece of code takes than the number of seconds
03:13<Rubidium>it's after all only used for crude profiling-ish stuff
03:14<cjk>yes, but I was referring to a change in frequency with which the TSC increases
03:15<Rubidium>The instruction returns a 64-bit value in registers EDX:EAX that represents the count of ticks from processor reset.
03:15<Rubidium>so with the frequency change an operation starts taking more processor ticks?
03:16<Rubidium>(or less)
03:18<Tefad>TSC count is sometimes used for random number generation
03:18<Tefad>however on pentium 4s the result seems to always be even (or odd, i forget)
03:19<Rubidium>maybe every operation takes a multiple of 2 processor ticks?
03:19<Tefad>maybe on p4s
03:20<Tefad>it screwed with the guy that codes foobar2000
03:20<Tefad>: D
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03:20<Tefad>i don't think he had any netburst machines to test his code with, took a while to figure out why there was a bug in shuffle mode with some computers and not others
03:21<Tefad>common denominator was P4
03:21<Tefad>perhaps all netburst.. i forget
03:22<cjk>Rubidium: Well I am referring to constant_tsc in /proc/cpuinfo; on some CPUs, the TSC increases constantly even if the frequency changes - this is good use for timekeeping, but when the TSC changes with frequency, it is not that suitable. How does it affect openttd?
03:23<Rubidium>so constant_tsc is absolutely unuseable for the use of rdtsc in OpenTTD
03:24<Rubidium>as I said before, we use the op count to determine how long a certain function takes in crude profilings
03:24<cjk>ah so it's just for profiling, and not for timekeeping?
03:24<Rubidium>it's actually not even been used at the moment
03:25<Noldo>but it has no gameplay effect
03:25<Tefad>wouldn't the system clock be best for this
03:25<Rubidium>Tefad: for what?
03:25<Tefad>time keeping.....
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03:26<Rubidium>what do you think OTTD uses?
03:26<Tefad>no idea
03:26<Tefad>probably system clock eh?
03:26*Tefad clucks
03:26<Rubidium>something very similar yes
03:26<Tefad>(heh, i typoed, causing me to do that)
03:27<Rubidium>for sdl it's the OS clock (number of ms since 1970 % UINT32_MAX)
03:27<Rubidium>for windows it's the number of ms since boot
03:28<Rubidium>for the null video driver we don't need it (fast forwards always)
03:29<Rubidium>dedicated uses the same as sdl for unixes and same as windows for windowses
03:30<Rubidium>and for the cocoa driver I've got no idea
03:31<Rubidium>so now, what was the problem with rdtsc?
03:31<cjk>none, i just wondered
03:34<Rubidium>but you could've found out where rdtsc was used quite easy with a simple grep
03:34<Rubidium>which your system would most likely have installed
03:34<cjk>greps do not seem to work on the source very well :p
03:34<cjk>like, trying to get rid of all the "queried from x.x.x.x" messages
03:35<cjk>there's just a larger part of preprocessor magic (which is ungrepable by nature)
03:35<Rubidium>grep -R 'queried from' src <- how hard can it be?
03:36<cjk>yeah but what to actually _change_ without just ripping out the DEBUG() call
03:36<Rubidium>the debuglevel at which it prints?
03:36<cjk>in the end, I settled with removing level==0 from debug.h
03:37<cjk>anyway, in a different problem "min_players=0" on the console does not work (variable not found)
03:39<cjk>min_players from [network] from openttd.cfg
03:40<Rubidium>cjk: uses spaces
03:41<Rubidium>as stated in the help
03:41<Rubidium>min_players = 10 works
03:41<Rubidium>min_players 10 also
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03:43<cjk>argh.. space handling really needs to be improved (I tried "min_players=10")
03:43<Rubidium>the console sucks anyways
03:46<cjk>and the debug levels are inverted :(
03:46<Rubidium>in what sense?
03:46<Rubidium>0 no debugging, 9 lots of debugging
03:46<cjk>hm, then -d net=x is screwed up; because "queried from" is tagged with level 2, but both -d net=1 and -d net=3 let it appear
03:47<cjk>(command line option from )
03:47<Rubidium>because dedicated overrides the debuglevel
03:47<cjk>I did not specify -D
03:47<cjk>does it figure out by looking at $DISPLAY?
03:49<@peter1138>if you compiled with video drivers, it will fail to start if they can't be used
03:50<@peter1138>if no drivers were compiled, it will always be dedicated
03:50<cjk>There is no page titled "config file". You can create this page.
03:50<cjk>so now I've got to find out what variable in openttd.cfg makes it a dedicated
03:51*cjk sighs
03:51<@peter1138>there is no setting in openttd.cfg to make it dedicated
03:52<cjk>yes, self-compiled, but how would it know in advance whether I wanted a dedicated one or the GUI
03:52<Rubidium>because you failed to install libsdl-dev
03:52<Rubidium>and configure said that
03:52<cjk>that's nasty
03:53<cjk>now I see... if I start /usr/bin/openttd instead, I get the GUI in aalib...
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03:55<@peter1138>yes, when you run configure it tells you
03:55<@peter1138>but i guess most people ignore that
03:55<cjk>then don't call it configure and don't make its output look like configure :)
03:56<@peter1138>uh huh
03:56<cjk>ok, makes sense. openttd -D for the gui version..
03:56<cjk>or highlight it at least
03:56<cjk>I just compiled from source because I wanted to change something to suit my needs, but I could have also used a precompiled openttd..
03:57<Rubidium>well, you could've read readme.txt...
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03:57<cjk>see, most people don't even do that
03:57<GoneWacko>Can someone go to my house and wait for my UPS package to arrive?
03:57<cjk>on Mondays?
03:58<GoneWacko>If the online tracking thingie is to be believed, yes.
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04:41<Alberth>Station and vehicle windows disappear, seemingly on a bankrupcy (news window?)
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04:45<Alberth>Euh, sorry, I was bankrupt :(
04:47<Gekz>Alberth: you frenchman!
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04:47<Gekz>Alberth: you said Euh
04:47<Gekz>that's french
04:48<Alberth>ah, well, I am not French afaik
04:48<cjk>mais tu semble qu'un
04:49<Tefad>je suis une vache
04:49<Alberth>and my French is more than non-eixstent
04:49<Tefad>ta mere est aussi
04:49<cjk>Solve[x > nonexistant, x]
04:49<cjk>Result: x ~ existant
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04:49<Eddi|zuHause>did you mean "mais-tu"? being an inversion and all
04:50<cjk>mais is not a verb!
04:50<cjk>ouais quoi
04:50<Tefad>c'est pas
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm baad at french ;)
04:50<cjk>mais is food in german :)
04:50<Alberth>Gekz: Solve[x > terrible, x] plz
04:51<cjk>Alberth: OutOfBoundsError.
04:51<Gekz>Alberth: what?
04:51<Tefad>j'ai plus dongs
04:51<Tefad>plus les dongs
04:51<Gekz>you suck Tefad
04:52<Tefad>pas mal
04:52<Gekz>you suck dongs
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04:52<Alberth>Gekz: If more than non-existant ~ existant, then i'd like to know what's more than terrible :)
04:52<Tefad>PENIS-URMOM ok?
04:52<cjk>"what's more than nothing? \"something\". So more than non-existant is existant"
04:53<cjk>nom de dieu de saloperie de connard!
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>anglais, s'il vous plaît
04:55<Tefad>je suis un anglophone
04:56<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: non
04:56<Tefad>ouais anglais, n'est pas?
04:56<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: Deutsch bitte.
05:00<cjk>Die Engländer!
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06:53<cjk>openttd needs a better way to detect version mismatches
06:53<SmatZ>how do you mean?
06:53<cjk>the curent method of comparing strings (?) is horrible.
06:54<SmatZ>it is not
06:54<cjk>I can't join a server running svn-r13032 because uh... configure decided my revision is "g92385022"
06:54<cjk>though it's - code-wise - r13032 too
06:54<SmatZ>use svn then
06:54<cjk>svn sucks
06:54<Noldo>use --revision
06:54<cjk>well anyway
06:54<SmatZ>then don't bitch about it
06:54<cjk>that's why I said it should not use a string comparison for version checking
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>./configure --version=rXXXX?
06:55<Rubidium>cjk: then use what else?
06:55<cjk>a number that is dependent on the actual binary interface, not the program's version
06:55<cjk>much like .so files in /usr/lib
06:55<Noldo>there is such number?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, how do you define what the "interface" is?
06:55<Rubidium>so we are going to update that for *every* codechange?
06:56<cjk>Eddi|zuHause: just look at ELF
06:56<cjk>or rather, the info page entry for libtool about binary numbering
06:56<Rubidium>cause when the interface doesn't change a codechange can still cause desyncs
06:56<cjk>i can paste it to a bin if you like
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>cjk: for network play, every client has to have the exact same codebase, not the same interface
06:56<cjk>I have to object :)
06:57<Noldo>cjk sounds like the young me
06:57<cjk>For example I changed the industries table and people are successfully connecting with 0.6.0
06:57<cjk>it's not the "exact" code base, just an approximation
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>every operation in a network game must yield the exact same result
06:58<cjk>but production rates are specified by the map, so I guess that is safe
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>there are some parts that are multiplayer agnostic, like stuff that is GUI-only
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>or stuff that happens before game creation
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>but those are very limited
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06:59<cjk>explains why I could not limit the destruction field (landscape.cpp ClearArea)
06:59<cjk>Rubidium: it does not change the interface per se, but if it is not synchronized, it can lead to problems
07:00<Noldo>should it bump version?
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>[newgrf-static] section is multiplayer-agnostic
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>it is restricted to grfs that basically only do sprite replacement
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>like catenary, or trees
07:01<Rubidium>cjk: so you want us to manually update some number for like 80% of the commits?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>stuff that has no gameplay value
07:02<cjk>well I am sure you can automate that :p
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>it gets automatically generated from ;)
07:02<cjk>svn/git hook, but I guess that closes the loop of going back to using the rev number
07:03<SmatZ>maybe if git/hg could update some number somewhere to svn revision while updating...
07:03<Rubidium>cjk: problem with git is that it is (for me) almost impossible to tell whether a git checkout is not tainted by a non-trunk-commit to it
07:03<cjk>git log
07:03<Rubidium>or do you want a script to go over 10000+ commits each compile cycle?
07:04<cjk>why, you just have to check if the top commit is a trunk or not
07:04<Rubidium>no, because then there could be other commits with changes that are not in trunk in that repository
07:04<SmatZ>sorry, I don't know git...
07:05<Rubidium>that would make it at least XXXXM
07:05<cjk>something along the lines of if `git-rev-parse HEAD` != `git-merge-base trunk/master HEAD`
07:07<cjk>if [ `git-rev-parse HEAD` == `git-merge-base trunk HEAD` ]; then echo I am an official revision; fi;
07:10<Rubidium>argh... git is slooooow
07:10<cjk>but downloading revisions with svn is slower
07:11<Rubidium>hg's faster
07:11<cjk>hg is in python, it can't be
07:12<Alberth>cjk: only if you have a really fast FS and a slow CPU
07:13<Rubidium>hg clone takes... 30 secs, git clone 5-ish minutes
07:13<cjk>depends on what you clone and from what server
07:14<Rubidium> vs. git://
07:14<Gekz>git ftw
07:14<cjk>Receiving objects: 100% (38825/38825), 17.93 MiB | 6155 KiB/s, done.
07:14<Alberth>Almost all VCS operations have bottle-neck in IO and not in CPU. It really doesn't matter where you program it in.
07:15<cjk>real 0m27.275s
07:15<cjk>see, my clone was even faster than your hg.
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07:15<Alberth>you should look at wall-clock time, not CPU seconds
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07:15<cjk>this *is* the wall clock time.
07:16*Alberth bonks head on table
07:16<cjk>CPU time was ~20s
07:16<cjk>user 0m18.181s
07:16<cjk>sys 0m2.948s
07:16<Alberth>sorry for the confusion
07:18<buffoon>hi! since the update to 0.6.0 (tried also 0.6.1 RC1) i have several sync errors causing disconnections with my friend. It is a Debian Linux and a Windows XP System (tried launching the server on both, normally on the debian machine). I didn't find anything on the BTS so i do you have some suggestions?
07:18<cjk>perhaps git just takes longer because the compression is more efficient
07:22<cjk>there it is
07:24<@peter1138>buffoon: yeah, wait for RC2
07:24<buffoon>peter1138: ah, ok... are there bugfixes planned?
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>buffoon: most known bugs are already fixed in trunk/nightlies, they need backporting to 0.6 and then a release of RC2
07:26<buffoon>ah ok, sounds nice
07:27<buffoon>thx to all developers of openttd btw... Great Job ;)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can try running a nightly server, but there are new features which might decrease stability
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07:31<@peter1138>but hydrairc's crap
07:32<buffoon>Hmm, I prefer to wait for RC2 then.
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07:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, new features are usually totally awesome ;)
07:44<Noldo>just because they are new
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, how many statistics about introducing old features have you studied?
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08:13<cjk>is there a way to define waypoints for trams?
08:15<SmatZ>build a drive-thru station, set order "Go via"
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09:51<@Belugas>[08:11] <cjk> is there a way to define waypoints for trams? <-- i read "farms" for a second...
09:56<Lakie>But trams doesn't look like farms... and would a farm need a waypoint? -_-
09:56<@Belugas>thus me standing there and scratching head...
09:56<@Belugas>i though like...
09:57<@Belugas>maybe he wants to use the farm as a waypoint?
09:57<@Belugas>or somthing...
09:57<@Belugas>never mind
09:57<@Belugas>not enough coffee yet in system
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10:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13060 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp settings.cpp): -Codechange: update build industry window when raw_industry_construction setting is modified
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13:07<Ammler>Wouldn't it make sense to include ottd_grf to trunk/src and to make it on compiling like the language files?
13:08<Ammler>hmm, I guess, nforenum and grfcodec would be the problem... :-/
13:19<nicfer>anyone from here knows action 52?
13:19<Rubidium>are there already that many?
13:20<Ammler>no :-), nicfer, you do not mean NewGRF Actions?
13:21<nicfer>action 52, oh well, it's for creating a graphic set with atari 2600 quality
13:22<nicfer>well, it was a joke, action 52 is actually a horrendous collection of crappy games that you never forget from the moment you play it
13:29<Roujin>okay it's holiday AND the nice devs are busy with window OO'ifying, so I won't nag about saying something about my drag&draw patch...
13:29<Roujin>*trying to use reverse psychology*
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13:38<Roujin>hi there bjarni
13:39<@Bjarni>hello Roujin
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13:53<@Belugas>new Nine Inch Nail ALBUM!!!
13:53<@Belugas>The Slip
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13:53<Chicago_Rail_Authority><---- clicks...
13:56<Prof_Frink>[18:56:07] <--- clocks
13:56<Chicago_Rail_Authority>clicks again?
13:56*Belugas opens da zip
13:58<Chicago_Rail_Authority>* kicks his lousy Comcast connection
13:58*Belugas drags in WinAmp and byebye Queensrych
13:58<Chicago_Rail_Authority>stupid IRC q -- how do you do the blue text with the "*" ?
13:59*Prof_Frink wonders what you mean
13:59<Chicago_Rail_Authority>exactly that
13:59*peter1138 doesn't know
13:59<Prof_Frink>It's all /me /me /me , isn't it.
14:00<Chicago_Rail_Authority>pretty much
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14:15*Chicago_Rail_Authority Finally gets the "it's all about /me" joke from earlier...
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14:15*Chicago_Rail_Authority ....mumble...
14:28*Belugas likes Head Down
14:30<ln>привет, волф01
14:34<@Bjarni>ln: I know it's the language you use to pick up women but there aren't any women here
14:34<@Bjarni>Sacro: false alarm
14:35<@Bjarni>it was a statement that they aren't here
14:35<@Bjarni>last time I saw a woman on IRC it turned out to be a guy
14:35<@Bjarni>but I guess that is to be expected
14:36<@Belugas>ln is in a linguistic identity crisis
14:39<Sacro>@seen Karen_
14:39<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Karen_ was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Karen_> jawohl!
14:40<@Bjarni><Belugas> ln is in a linguistic identity crisis <-- he should talk about it in #someonewhocares
14:40<@Belugas>i've heard that the named Karen_ entity can be found on #openttd.riddle
14:40<@Belugas>or soemting
14:40<@Belugas>agreed Bjarni
14:40<Eddi|zuHause><Belugas> ln is in a linguistic identity crisis <- you mean лн ;)
14:41<@Belugas>if you wish, Eddi|zuHause :)
14:41<@Belugas>hooo.... Corona Radiata seems promising :D
14:45<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> <Belugas> ln is in a linguistic identity crisis <- you mean лн ;) <-- if we start to define terms for him then this one could do as well: 言語能力のアイデンティティクライシス
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>"Die Fähigkeit zur Nutzung der Sprache Identitätskrise" <- that does not make too much sense...
14:48<@Belugas>The Four of Us are Dying : MESMERIZING!
14:49<Eddi|zuHause># Yes, yes, yaw, yaw! I'm a hell of a man!
14:49<Eddi|zuHause># I'm walkin', walkin' down the street and hear you, hear you saying: "Damn!
14:49<Eddi|zuHause># I wanna, I wanna be like Smudo, too,
14:49<Eddi|zuHause># makin', makin' rap records, saying, saying 'Fuck you'!"
14:50<@Bjarni>thinking about it I guess the sentence should actually be: アイデンティティクライシスの言語能力
14:50<@Bjarni>not that it would matter to most of you :P
14:51<Sacro>i see a person running
14:51<Sacro>possibly on fire
14:51<Sacro>into a building?
14:51<Wolf01>sacro goes hunting
14:51<@Bjarni>Sacro hunts free BBQ
14:52<Wolf01>karen isn't a she :D
14:52<@Bjarni>are you sure?
14:52<@Belugas>why do you say so?
14:52<@Bjarni>did you try the test from Crocodile Dundee?
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14:54<@Bjarni>no answer...
14:55<@Bjarni>looks like he did
14:55<@Bjarni>and something happened afterwards
14:55<@Bjarni>Wolf01: are you able to walk again?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>(such a great song)
14:56<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: isn't that an off topic youtube link?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>no, it is on topic
14:56<Sacro> <- and i'm addicted to that song
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i have talked about the song above, and bjarni talked about women that are not women
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's double-topic ;)
14:57<@Bjarni>which means it overflows and makes it very off topic :P
15:00<Eddi|zuHause> <- man, that was a long time ago...
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>(same band, different decade)
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's basically the song they got famous with
15:01<@Bjarni>Sacro: does that video reflect your view on Germans?
15:01<@Belugas>ho... dancing monkeys...
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15:02<Eddi|zuHause>they have a trabbi in the video ;)
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>those are antique by now :p
15:02<Sacro>Bjarni: no, tis just a catchy tune
15:04<@Bjarni> <-- this is actually some German singing that's worth listening to (unlike your links :P )
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>damn, i don't have enough bandwidth for that much youtube...
15:05<@Bjarni>you pay for each MB?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>that is hardly a german that sings there :p
15:06<@Bjarni>it's a computer
15:06<Sacro>damn alarm
15:06<@Bjarni>it's voice synth generated
15:06<@Bjarni>and it's better to listen to than your links :P
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>actually, the "queen of the night" should represent a really mad woman bitching around :p
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15:09<Sacro> one, two, three, swanky swanky pigs
15:12<@Bjarni>can you guys explain the election in Serbia. The pro EU guys got 123 seats while the nationalists got 127 seats yet the pro EU guys have been declared the winner
15:12<Eddi|zuHause> <Bjarni> you pay for each MB? <- no, that would be a traffic limit... i just have really low bandwidth (low enough that i can't watch youtube videos in "real time")
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15:13<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: they got that from the election in Kongo ;)
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15:14<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even know there was an election in serbia
15:14*Sacro has an election
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you do, but please spare us the details :p
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15:16<@Bjarni>Sacro: we don't want to hear the result of your "use right or left hand" election
15:17<SmatZ>election :)
15:17<@Bjarni>how can you have that election at all? I mean all the voters would show up after the time you need your result
15:18<@Bjarni>now I think I know how they declared the winner in Serbia
15:19<@Bjarni>it would appear that election observers look at who has the largest party rather than who has 50+% of the votes
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15:20<@Bjarni>that would work in USA and other countries with only two parties
15:20<@Bjarni>but not here
15:20<Prof_Frink>Now there's a good idea
15:20<Prof_Frink>Have elections based on which party can throw the best one.
15:23<@Bjarni>according to EU the goal is to gain as much power to EU as possible
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20:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13062 /trunk/src/transparency_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make a class of the TransparencyToolbar.
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20:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13063 /trunk/src/transparency_gui.cpp: -Fix(13062): Removal of old handler was not followed by removal in descriptor
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---Logclosed Tue May 13 00:00:54 2008