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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-25

---Logopened Sun May 25 00:00:53 2008
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04:04<Robert-o># Appears as Monkey-b.
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05:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13240 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp train_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: More const-ness for GUI code.
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05:54<@Bjarni>damn you are slow today :P
05:55<Sacro>tis 11am
05:55<Sacro>this is early
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06:06<@Bjarni>hello Mchl
06:06<@Bjarni>Mchl: we have an issue with Sacro. He still considers this time of the day as morning
06:06<@peter1138>well it is
06:07<@Bjarni>maybe we should build a robot that invades his room at 8 O'clock and tell him that the sun is on the sky
06:10<Mchl>as long as it is his room and not mine, I'll go for it
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06:10<Mchl>we need special detector, to detect whose room it is
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06:11<@Bjarni>GPS is good enough
06:11<Mchl>and radio link to atomic clock, so that the robot knows what time it is exactly
06:11<@Bjarni>as it is accurate enough not to pick the wrong country
06:11<Mchl>(I just love overkill solutions)
06:12<@Bjarni>actually we should use as little hardware as possible
06:12<Mchl>minimalism is not fun :P
06:12<@Bjarni>reducing the amount of hardware that can fail will make it more reliable
06:13<@Bjarni>and we need to make it as reliable as possible to ensure that we reach the wanted result
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06:13<Mchl>and possibly make it cheaper, look better, weigh less... all that engineering talk...
06:14<@Bjarni>we need to make it as cheap as possible
06:14<@Bjarni>preferable built out of discarded hardware so it's for free
06:14<Mchl>ok... so what way of room-intrusion do you propose?
06:15<Mchl>door or window?
06:15<Mchl>now you're talking!
06:16<@Bjarni>the question is if we can get a drill that's big enough
06:16<@Bjarni>we should add a wire detector as well
06:16<Mchl>how about we use shaped explosive charges :D
06:16<@Bjarni>we need to take the fuse in the process
06:18<Mchl>what kind of building do you live in Sacro?
06:18<Mchl>is he around at all or still asleep?
06:18<Mchl>@seen Sacro
06:18<@DorpsGek>Mchl: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 23 minutes and 56 seconds ago: <Sacro> this is early
06:19<@Bjarni>it would be so like him to fall asleep again
06:19<@Bjarni>we can't aim this at a specific building
06:19<@Bjarni>he moves a lot
06:19<@Bjarni>maybe he fails to pay rent
06:20<Alberth>Track his mobile!
06:20<Mchl>and IP!
06:20<@Bjarni>for all we know it's dead due to unpaid bills
06:20<@Bjarni>we should control his computer
06:21<Mchl>let us plant a troian horse, that will emit high pitched sound from his PC, that our robot can aim for
06:21<@Bjarni>since he can't turn it off
06:21<@Bjarni>it would be against his beliefs
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07:16<dvdb>is it possible (with a grf or like that) to build parallel rail ways on roads?
07:17<dvdb>3min pleace
07:18<Rubidium>how standard... ``hello, this is my question but I've got no time to explain what I mean''
07:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13241 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify CmdDepotSellAllVehicles() a bit
07:19<Mchl>2 minutes... nice
07:20<dvdb>railways like tramways
07:20<Gekz>dvdb: not possible afaik
07:20<Gekz>I've never even seen that in real life
07:20<Mchl>there was a topic about it on forums
07:20<Mchl>with some real life pictures
07:21<Rubidium>it's not going to happen any time soon, if at all, though
07:21<Gekz>kinda renders the road pointless
07:21<dvdb>Gekz: in Chur (Switzerland) the Raethian Railways drive on roads.
07:21<hylje>medium rail
07:21<hylje>not quite trams but not quite heavy rail either
07:22<Gekz>dvdb: cool!
07:22<Gekz>got a photo?
07:22<Gekz>or can you find one?
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07:22<dvdb>and it is not a tram, it is a train.
07:23<Gekz>now I want to visit Switzerland even more
07:24<Gekz>dvdb: the road is wide though
07:24<Gekz>on openttd, it isnt
07:25<dvdb>other question: how can i change the speed of a train?
07:26<dvdb>is there a parameter in a file to change?
07:27<Alberth>dvdb: There are a few configure patches settings that affect train speed
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07:29<Alberth>Under the 'vehicles' tab, 'realistic acceleration', 'enable speed limit wagons', and 'weight multiplier for freight'
07:29<Alberth>Otherwise, you'll have to make a GRF file.
07:30<Alberth>(or find one with settings that you like :) )
07:31<Gekz>I just realilsed
07:31<Gekz>Australia is the 6th largest country in the world
07:32<Gekz>you can fit 186.35133 Switzerlands in Australia
07:33<Gekz>and they have about a third of our population lol
07:33<dvdb>Gekz: I just realised that Switzerland has the best railway system :P
07:33<dvdb> *nice*
07:38<dvdb>does anybody know something about newgrf files of swiss trains?
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07:48<Gekz>dvdb: look on the grfcrawler
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07:49<dvdb>:/ nothing :(
07:49<Gekz> isn't completely translated into english -_-
07:49<Gekz>dvdb: there isnt one
07:49<Gekz>it seems.
07:49<Gekz>make one :D
07:49<dvdb>the most of the german article is written by me. but my englisch is so bad :(
07:50<Gekz>Mein Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut.
07:50<murr4y>dodo von den bergen!
07:50<dvdb>yea! :-)
07:50<Gekz>I know my cases though
07:51<Gekz>I can read German
07:51<Gekz>with a dictionary.
07:51<Gekz>lol, Zug always makes me laugh
07:51<Gekz>Train, zug
07:53<dvdb>in switzerland there are a lot of mountains. and it costs a lot to make highspeed ways; so they built a tilting train which can drive fast in curves.
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07:54<dvdb>Gekz: if you want to voyage to switzerland you can call me. i can show you the whole swiss railway-world.
07:55<Gekz>if you're still alive in 2 years, and I can get to switzerland, definitely
07:55<dvdb>Gekz: i'll stay in this irc channel two years long.
07:55<Gekz>haha ok
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08:46<fdr>Hello! Please, can somebody tell me how to open the "Local authority" window? I cannot find it... thanks!
08:46<+glx>click on town name
08:46<Gekz>thats a win.
08:47<fdr>*that* was easy :D
08:47<Splatman>I think I have a bug with VS handling of the autoreplace backup/restore code, I am usinga custom build with Tracksharing, PBS and copy paste, basicly when certian trains (only reproduced it with a tripple headed 32 long mail trian due to lack of testing) fail an autoreplace the restore seems to courput the Cargo packets data and will then produce invalid save games
08:47<Splatman>This doesn't hapend with BuildOTTD
08:48<+glx>try with a clean trunk
08:49<Splatman>I would but its a bugger to reproduce
08:49<+glx>it may be caused by one of the patches you applied
08:49<Splatman>Non of the patches touch the code
08:49<Splatman>for autoreplace and restore
08:50<+glx>but they can have out of bounds access and overwrite memory used by autoreplace
08:50<Splatman>Track sharing does change feeder_share in the cargo packet to an array
08:50<Splatman>The problem is I can't reliably reproduce it on the patch version
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08:52<Splatman>My fried thinks it because the Restor Vheicle function giving every vheicle in the train the same cargo list
08:52<Splatman>quote "yeah, it's definitely memcopying the list head pointer from the local list, which is destroyed and recreated each loop (and the c++ allocator gives it the same address)"
08:53<Splatman>and the thinks gcc uses a null pointer for an empty list
08:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13242 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove _opt_ptr.
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09:12<Splatman>amzingly it does it on trunk
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09:20<Splatman>Using UKRS and PB's Industries, if you send the train thats in the station to the depot the auto replace fails, from then on it only saves corrupt files
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09:26<frosch123>If it is unmodified trunk, post it at
09:51<frosch123>thanks Splatman
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09:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13243 /3rdparty/squirrel/ (10 files in 4 dirs):
09:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [Squirrel] -Update: updated Squirrel to 2.2.1
09:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [Squirrel] -Remove: removed .pdf files from Squirrel, as they give more conflicts then anything else
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10:38<Gekz>what the hell is squirrel?
10:39<Eddi|zuHause2>a small animal with a long furry tail
10:39<Forked>next question
10:39<Eddi|zuHause2>typically to be found in trees
10:40<@Bjarni>they are often gray, red and/or brown
10:42<@Bjarni>btw I did something yesterday
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10:43<@Bjarni>I played a tourist
10:43<@Bjarni> <--- and took this picture of the ferries between Denmark and Sweden
10:44<@Bjarni>aka the busiest ferry line in EU
10:44<Eddi|zuHause2>did you call yourself "twoflower"?
10:44<@Bjarni>why do you ask?
10:44<Prof_Frink>Did you have The Luggage?
10:44<@Bjarni>why do you have to ask? :)
10:47<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: why would I call myself anything like that???
10:47<Eddi|zuHause2>oh great... now you ruined it :p
10:49<Mchl>Description: A naive tourist wearing a wide grin
10:51<@Bjarni>not entirely like that
10:53<Prof_Frink>Bjarni needs to read more Pratchett.
10:53<Mchl>he does
10:54<Mchl>Bjarni: you'll like the concept of L-space, if you don't know it by now
10:54<Eddi|zuHause2>there's even a TV movie
10:55<@Bjarni>there is?
10:55<@Bjarni>I once saw a TV cartoon of Lord of the Rings
10:55<@Bjarni>it was crap
10:55<@Bjarni>and weird
10:55<@Bjarni>and I had problems even linking it to the book
10:56<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, the LotR cartoons were bad...
10:57<@Bjarni>I saw it before reading the book and I was told that LotR should be really good so I watched the whole thing
10:57<@Bjarni>when it ended I was thinking "I didn't understand shit about what happened"
10:58<@Bjarni>it was just a bunch of weird people saying weird stuff
10:58<@Bjarni>and out of nowhere it ended
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, imho the Hogfather film is better than The Colour of Magic film
10:58<@Bjarni>while they were entering some game (I later learned that it had to be Moria)
10:59<@Bjarni>I can't even write correctiong right >_<
10:59<@peter1138>give up
10:59*Bjarni shuts up
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11:02<@Bjarni>to avoid all the typos talking about fiction: what do you think about the picture?
11:02<@Bjarni>it's for real
11:03<Eddi|zuHause2>there was a picture? :p
11:04<@peter1138>it's a ferry race
11:04<@Bjarni><Bjarni> <--- and took this picture of the ferries between Denmark and Sweden
11:05<@Bjarni><peter1138> it's a ferry race <-- it would be a silly race as they aren't going in the same direction :P
11:06<murr4y>captain looks out
11:06<murr4y>"fuck we're going the wrong way"
11:07<@Bjarni>actually this is normal traffic
11:07<@Bjarni>the two ferry lines have a total of 5 ferries
11:07<Alberth>nah, turning point is just at the right of the picture, left-most ferry is quite far ahead :P
11:07<@Bjarni>going between the same two harbours
11:07<@Bjarni>the distance between them is 4 km
11:08<Mchl>5 ferries / 4km
11:09<Mchl>that's 1,2 ferry/km
11:09<@Bjarni>the surprising thing is that they can go back and forth in just an hour (including emptying and filling the ferry in both ends)
11:09<@Bjarni>so it's 5 ferries in each direction every hour
11:09<Mchl>1,25 :P
11:10<murr4y>are they usually full too?
11:10*Bjarni notes not to buy a Mchl robot
11:10<@Bjarni>murr4y: not always completely full but full enough to justify so many ferries
11:11<Mchl>I truncated result if division, then decided I needed more precision :P
11:11<@Bjarni>3 ferries has 3 car decks and 2 have 2. This means a total of 13 car decks each way every hour
11:12<@Bjarni>and they operate around the clock
11:12<Mchl>why not build a bridge?
11:12<@Bjarni>(I don't think all ferries are active during the night though)
11:12<@Bjarni><Mchl> why not build a bridge? <-- now you left the world of sanity and entered the political one
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11:12<@Bjarni>I guess that's enough answer for that question :P
11:12<murr4y>is there taxfree on the boat+
11:13<@Bjarni>and a really efficient one too
11:13<@Bjarni>since everybody who wants to buy something in it can do so in the 20 minute ride
11:14<murr4y>i bet it's not very expensive to cross either
11:14<murr4y>at least it's not from norway to sweden, about 100 NOK
11:14<murr4y>for a car
11:15<@Bjarni>so basically I can go to Sweden, shop tax free, buy gadgets/ethernet stuff/whatever in a nice shop 100 meters from the ferry landing and then go back again for the same price and time as it takes to go to Copenhagen
11:15<@Bjarni>it's faster to go to Sweden
11:15<murr4y>nice :p
11:16<Mchl>ah! joys of living near the border
11:16<@Bjarni><Mchl> why not build a bridge? <-- actually I think the real reason is that if there should be a bridge then the politicians wanted it to be built in Copenhagen. Now they built one in Copenhagen and everybody claimed the ferries to be dead
11:16<@Bjarni>and the ferries hardly lost any passengers
11:17<Mchl>did you take picture in Denmark, or in Sweden?
11:17<@Bjarni>the bridge on the other hand lack the traffic they expected
11:18<@Bjarni>one reason is that if you come from south or west of Copenhagen then the bridge is 50 km longer and 30% more expensive
11:18<@Bjarni>and no taxfree
11:18<Rubidium>isn't the bridge on the south side of Copenhagen?
11:18<@Bjarni>it's in the eastern end
11:19<@Bjarni>next to the airport
11:22<@peter1138>so you were there
11:24<@Bjarni> <-- here you can see the bridge and the ferry line
11:25<@Bjarni>one issue is that to get anywhere except the very southern part of Sweden then you have to go to E4 or E6 and hence very close to the ferry on the Swedish side
11:25<@Bjarni>making the bridge a detour
11:25<@Bjarni>of 50 km
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11:26<@Bjarni>now they are talking about building a bridge from Denmark to Germany
11:26<@Bjarni>I don't think it will happen
11:27<@Bjarni>Germany says it's ok as long as Denmark is paying
11:27<Mchl>what's Peberholm?
11:27<@Bjarni>Sweden wants it but will not pay since it will not reach Sweden (it will affect travelling time between Sweden and Europe)
11:28<@Bjarni>Some Danish politicians wants it but the main drive in the political force was the transport minister who was replaced not long ago
11:28<@Bjarni>the population don't want to pay the price
11:28<Rubidium>Bjarni: but.. there is already a bridge from Germany to Denmark
11:29<@Bjarni>not from Rødby
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11:29<Rubidium>you didn't say that!
11:29<@Bjarni>I presume that there is some short one in southern Jutland
11:30<Rubidium>,8.962859&spn=0.005713,0.006545&z=17 <- there
11:30<@Bjarni><Mchl> what's Peberholm? <-- a 4 km long artificial island created to allow the bridge to be as short as possible (which is in this case shrinked down to 8 km)
11:31<Rubidium>Peberholm is made because some people were sissies
11:32<Rubidium>building a bridge is cheaper than making an artificial island
11:32<Mchl>well... someone got paid to build this island
11:32<Mchl>and he was no sissy at all
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11:33<@Bjarni>,11.298791&spn=0.005713,0.006545&z=11 <-- here is where they want to build a bridge
11:33<@Bjarni>the funny thing is that there is no bridge from Peberholm to Denmark
11:33<@Bjarni>there is a tunnel
11:34<@Bjarni>I never understood why they wanted a tunnel/bridge combo
11:34<Rubidium>because of beforementioned sissies
11:34<@Bjarni>political decision
11:34<@Bjarni>just like the bridge on Storebælt
11:34<Rubidium>because "a plane might prematurely stop flying during the approach"
11:35<@Bjarni>to prevent blocking waterflow some politicians wanted a tunnel instead
11:35<@Bjarni>so because trains are more environmental friendly they ended up making a tunnel for the trains and a bridge for the cars
11:36<Rubidium>trains need more expensive bridges
11:36<@Bjarni>but the reason was not money but the environment
11:37<@Bjarni>they fucked up one thing regarding that bridge
11:37<@Bjarni>you could any kind of bike on the ferries but the bridge is for cars only
11:38<@Bjarni>then people could put the bikes on the train instead
11:38<@Bjarni>nobody thought about the railroad restrictions regarding bikes
11:38<@Bjarni>only normal bikes with no bags or anything
11:38<@Bjarni>meaning if you pack your tent and stuff on your bike you were screwed
11:38<@Bjarni>while the ferries accepted that
11:39<@peter1138>hmm, alsa switched from HG to GIT
11:39<@peter1138>i wonder why
11:39<@Bjarni>me too
11:39<@Bjarni>I never got git to work
11:39<@Bjarni>but HG works just fine
11:39<@Bjarni>compiled and installed in first try and never gave any problems
11:40<Rubidium>peter1138: GIT<->GIT probably works better than HG<->GIT
11:43<pasky>curious, did you have any particular problems with git?
11:44<@Bjarni>it failed to compile/work
11:44<+glx>it doesn't work on windows
11:44<pasky>peter1138: probably has something to do with the change of maintainer too
11:44<@Bjarni>but I can't remember any specific reason
11:44<pasky>there's a windows version (msysgit) but I'm not sure how much beta it still is
11:44<pasky>but on unix i heard only rarely about problems with getting git to work
11:45<@Bjarni>maybe it will just work out of the box if I get the net source
11:45<@Bjarni>or try to get it to work
11:46<@Bjarni>I was more or less like "it failed... let's try HG instead"
11:46<pasky>yeah, i can see that :)
11:47<@Bjarni>HG worked and since I only needed one of them...
11:48<@Bjarni>for all I know reading the whole readme might tell me to install some lib or something :P
11:48<@Bjarni>none of them are in fink though :/
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11:49<@Bjarni>it's unstable
11:49<@Bjarni>Package git-
11:49<@Bjarni>Description: Stupid content tracker (
11:51<pasky>humble software ;)
11:51<@Bjarni>HG needs OSX 10.4+ while git needs 10.3+
11:51<pasky>and you're using 10.2? :)
11:52<@Bjarni>I wonder what would happen with HG on 10.3
11:52<@Bjarni>maybe the package maintainer just didn't test it
11:52<@Bjarni><pasky> and you're using 10.2? :) <-- I have a computer that can't boot anything never than 10.2
11:52<@Bjarni>and one that can't boot anything older than 10.4
11:52<@Bjarni>10.3... I miss you :~(
11:53<@peter1138>and a pc will still run DOS
11:53<@peter1138>that's how great OS X is, clearly
11:54<@Bjarni>I started wondering about the quality of OSX when I realised how 10.5 works
11:54<@Bjarni>or at least the backwards compatibility in it
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>what does port 110 do?
11:57<@Bjarni>it allows TCP traffic
11:57<@Bjarni>at least if you open it
11:57<@Bjarni>pop3 110/tcp Post Office Protocol - Version 3
11:57<@Bjarni>lost by a sec
11:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13244 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix: allow only one town directory window to be opened
11:59<Eddi|zuHause2>then 554 is some kind of radio streaming i assume
11:59<@Bjarni>rtsp 554/tcp Real Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP)
11:59<@Bjarni>look it up yourself
11:59<@Bjarni>I just gave you the link ;)
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that file is still downloading
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>330kb of 738kb
12:00<@Bjarni>your browser should support search so you just search for the port number and you have it in no time
12:00<@Bjarni>it showed up here more or less instantly
12:00<Eddi|zuHause2>it says 8kb/s
12:02<@peter1138>don't you have /etc/services?
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12:12<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13245 /trunk/src/ (misc/smallvec.h vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h vehicle_type.h): -Codechange: Use SmallVectors for generating vehicle lists, simplifying calling code somewhat.
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12:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13246 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r13245): incorrect parameters to memcpy
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12:29<Digitalfox>I'm doing a little web site for an exam, and I need some help.. I have to design a Web page with HTML+ CSS.. Now after I have done it ( used a tutorial that says it's XHTML ), I see that I have the option to insert in Index.htm " Document Type Definition ".. Do I need it for a HTML + CSS page?
12:29<Digitalfox>The exam says I just need to create a HTML + CSS page no mention on XHTML
12:30<Digitalfox>Is it important ?
12:30<Mchl>you should add it
12:30<Mchl>page will work without it, but it is better to add it
12:31<Digitalfox>But Mchl the exam just mentions HTML + CSS, by using XHTML am I failing?
12:31<Mchl>certainly not
12:31<@peter1138>use an HTML DTD
12:31<Digitalfox>So can I assume that by using CSS I need to have XHTML?
12:32<@peter1138>or if you did an XHTML page, use an XHTML DTD
12:32<Mchl>no, you can use CSS with HTML
12:32<Mchl>but from examiners point of view, there should be no diffirence between XHTML and HTML
12:32<Digitalfox>So what is the diference by using extensible version?
12:32<Mchl>it'smore trendy :_
12:33<@Bjarni>I once told about solving an electronic issue with a solution about how to produce the hardware in a specific way. The point in this is that at that time I had to study for another year before I could select to learn about this stuff and it's not even mandatory
12:33<Digitalfox>I'll post it here in a while, it's very simple, really.. But I had to start like this :)
12:33<@Bjarni>I got a pretty good grade :)
12:33<Mchl>actually, HTML started as a language that would describe both what's on the page, and how's it presented to the end user
12:34<Mchl>this approach leaded to many problems
12:34<Mchl>so wise people in W3C decided to split the two functions
12:35<Mchl>you should use XHTML to describe what's on the page
12:35<Mchl>and CSS to tell browser, how it should look like
12:36<Mchl>(I am sure I did some serious ommisions in this story, but in basic terms it goes something like that)
12:37<@Bjarni>I don't think I ever did something like that with programming though
12:41<Digitalfox>Well it's very basic.. But if someone could tell me if the basics are right, I would be very appreciated :);10347453;/fileinfo.html
12:43<Digitalfox>Mchl could you have a look please?
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12:44<Digitalfox>This is only until a sample in HTML
12:44<Digitalfox>*until now
12:44<Digitalfox>Now I will introduce some more pages and use CSS
12:45<Mchl>i am taking a look right now
12:45<Mchl>i'll show you something
12:45<Digitalfox>I just want to know if structure in HTML is in a neat way with line breaks and indents, I mean is ok like this?
12:46<Mchl>this is a site that'll validate your markup
12:46<Mchl>i.e. check for errors
12:46<Mchl>you have to add Doctype section though, so it could work
12:46<Mchl>as for indents, they're not really important
12:47<Mchl>they're only useful for browsingcode
12:47<Digitalfox>Mchl in what you have seen is it XHTML ot HTML?
12:47<Mchl>could be both
12:47<Mchl>as long as you dont add Doctype, there's no diffirence
12:48<Mchl>(with such simple markup that is)
12:49<Mchl>ok... one error
12:49<Mchl>you can't hace <center> inside <p></p>
12:49<Mchl>can't have
12:50<Digitalfox>So should be <center><p></p></center> ?
12:50<Mchl>that's better
12:51<Mchl>the best would be to use CSS for that
12:51<Digitalfox>I guess when do the CSS part most of it has to be removed tehn..
12:51<Digitalfox>But its good to start by trying to do everything in HTML and the migrate what it needs to CSS right?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause2>if you know you're going to use two languages, you might as well take a few seconds to think and then take the best of both languages
12:53<Digitalfox>you are right Eddi|zuHause2 but I'm leraning HTML and then I'l go to CSS :)
13:04<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13247 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Codechange: small amount of coding style for settings.cpp.
13:10<+glx>isn't <center> usage deprecated?
13:11<SmatZ>I think it isn't in XHTML
13:11<SmatZ>or so
13:11<SmatZ>I may be awfuly wrong
13:12<Mchl>i think it is in XHTML 1.0 Strict
13:13<Mchl>but for HTML 4.01 Transitional it's fine
13:13<Eddi|zuHause2>yay for "standards" :p
13:14<bowman>transitional isn't fine! strict or bust :)
13:15<Mchl>it's fine for school exam...
13:15<bowman>there should be nothing in the markup itself that specifies anything about visual layout
13:16<Mchl>agreed on that
13:16<bowman>learning the old tagsoup mess will just propagate bad habits
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13:20<Mchl>we may lower that risk, by telling him from the beginning he should not use them for anything alse than his very first page ;)
13:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13248 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Use VehicleList for depot GUI.
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13:26<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13249 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2039]: make industry sorting by transported percentage more consistent
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13:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13250 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Use VehicleList in SendAllVehiclesToDepot()
13:41<dvdb>question: are there plans to realize diagonal bridges/tunnels?
13:41<Mchl>AFAIK none
13:43<Mchl>but I might not have the altest info ;)
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14:00<@Bjarni>it's getting warmer
14:00<@Bjarni>like something is burning
14:00<@peter1138>so you've fixed them then?
14:00<@Bjarni>fixed what?
14:00<@Bjarni>the heater?
14:00<@Bjarni>I guess so because it's working perfectly
14:01<@peter1138>those bugs :)
14:01<@Bjarni>didn't have time
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause2><dvdb> question: are there plans to realize diagonal bridges/tunnels? <- what qualifies as "plan"?
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14:20<@Bjarni>it means: is there any chance that somebody will try to implement it within 20 years
14:20<@Bjarni>so the answer is yes
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14:21<@Bjarni>if plans means that one of the current coders will implement it within a week then... fat chance
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14:46<xahodo>I've got a problem with the new orders gui (yes, I know... it's there for a while already, but I tried to get used to it before coming here).
14:49<xahodo>Can't all those drop-down lists be made into buttons, which cycle through all of their available options? That would make it a lot more useful imho.
14:53<Eddi|zuHause2># U i vethed na i onnad.
14:53<Eddi|zuHause2># Si boe u-dhanna.
14:53<Eddi|zuHause2># Ae u-esteli, esteliach nad.
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause2>how do you mean buttons?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause2>sometimes i wish they would just keep the last selection
14:54<xahodo>Well, instead of drop-down lists, just normal buttons.
14:54<xahodo>Like buttons which you can click and then the next option appears.
14:54<Eddi|zuHause2>what would that achieve?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause2>except from not knowing all the options?
14:55<xahodo>Ease of use, drop-down menus are tedious to use.
14:57<xahodo>perhaps a compromise then: the drop-down menu still appears, but you could click the button to cycle through the options, instead of being forced to move the mouse over the option you want and /then/ clicking it.
14:57<xahodo>Or how about a patch-setting, allowing you to choose between the two (or maybe 3)?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause2>that is surely the way to go!! :p
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15:01<Prof_Frink>We should fork openttd-kde, with options for *everything*
15:02<Prof_Frink>gopenttd having one button, marked "build network"
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause2># estelio han, estelio veleth
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15:05<Digitalfox>does it make any sense making CCS use the white clour for background when it's the default one in html?
15:05<@peter1138>white background is not the default
15:05<@peter1138>many sites assume it is, but it's not
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>"default" is "whatever the browser is set to"
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>and to reprise the above discussion... konqeror :p
15:06<Digitalfox>but peter when we create a html file, it always uses white, so what you are saying is that happen just because the browser uses white by default but can be change by the user?
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15:06<Digitalfox>ok thank you :)
15:07<Digitalfox>so i'll always use css in every page for background :)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i hate sites forcing anything which they might as well let the user decide
15:09<Rubidium>like fontsizes in pixels or points
15:09<Eddi|zuHause2>like if i have a desktop theme using dark background and light text, having webpages with the opposite is really bad
15:09<@peter1138>but worse is only specifying foreground and not background
15:10<Eddi|zuHause2>or width of 640 pixels... resulting of only a small stripe being used
15:11<Rubidium>or forcing a width more than 920 pixels
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>or forcing a width - period
15:13<Digitalfox>but I should always define the width and height of a picture right? Like for example I have a photo 752*384, I should say the size so the browser when having a slow load of the picture already puts the page at it's size.. I hope I make sence..
15:13<Eddi|zuHause2>or worse: forcing frame sizes in pixels, relying on a specific font in a specific size to fit into them
15:14<Eddi|zuHause2>and any person using a different font/size is hopelessly screwed
15:14<@peter1138>"everyone uses 96dpi!"
15:17<Digitalfox>Another noob question about css ( sorry guys I'm reading a tutorial and testing stuff, but have doubts ), should I always define font clors even if I just want the text in black?
15:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13251 /trunk/src/ (80 files in 7 dirs):
15:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: rename _patches to _settings as that is more logic.
15:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: move all Settings into substructs of _settings in a way that they are logically grouped.
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>didn't we just say: never specify colours unless you really have to?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>like: you have a background picture and want to have the text visible on it
15:18<Digitalfox>but Eddi|zuHause2 I thought the same applied like the background where the default could be modified..
15:18<Digitalfox>if choosed in browser
15:19<Prof_Frink>Yes. So if you set the background, set the foreground.
15:20<Digitalfox>Haven't got the foreground in tutorial :p
15:20<Eddi|zuHause2>foreground == text colour
15:21<@peter1138>if you haven't set either colour, then fine
15:21<Prof_Frink>^ what he said.
15:21<@peter1138>if the user has stupid defaults, that's their problem
15:21<Digitalfox>well I defined the background in white
15:21<Digitalfox>since it would look bad in other color
15:21<@peter1138>then define the text colour
15:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13252 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when converting orders from older savegames, set 'Unload and leave empty' for 'Unload' orders
15:29<Eddi|zuHause2>a while ago i made a test run with KDE 4, and tried a dark desktop scheme, because it is better for the eyes
15:30<Eddi|zuHause2>but web pages with white background screw that up
15:30<Eddi|zuHause2>it really hurts when you open a browser, and suddenly the whole screen is bright
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15:38<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13253 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: simplify conversion of old orders a bit
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16:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13254 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: waypoint orders could have invalid flags set after conversion
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16:12<Digitalfox>but Eddi|zuHause2 well for what I'm starting to understand if I don't define a background color users can have also a bad experience..
16:13<Digitalfox>It's like a trade off option..
16:16<@peter1138>i think you fail to understand. it is pretty simple.
16:17<@peter1138>the validator checks it too
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16:36<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause2: this is why i set my brightness to something dumb
16:37<Tefad>then counter with a hardware gamma if i have it
16:38<Tefad>it's like screwing with the contrast but you don't lose as much information
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17:07<Digitalfox>Well I think now I just have to edit the other pages..;10350520;/fileinfo.html Still a lot of things i guess i should done better but..
17:08<Ammler>is it possible to "auto"-replace mail waggons with pass waggons?
17:09<Ammler>thank :-)
17:10<Rubidium>FOR_ALL_VEHICLES(v) if (v->cargo_type = CT_MAIL) v->cargo_type = CT_PASS;
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17:11<Rubidium>probaly fails horribly with newgrfs
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17:12<Ammler>you can't do such things with console
17:12<Ammler>you would need a debugger, I guess
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17:13<@peter1138>i doubt a debugger would do that
17:13<Rubidium>more than likely that the debugger can't do it that efficiently either
17:16*Touqen pokes people randomly.
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17:16<Tefad>divo didn't like it either it seems.
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17:16<pasky>certainly if you keep the single equal sign in the condition at least
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17:21<Rubidium>pasky: it'd still make all mail wagons passenger wagons
17:21<Touqen>As well as every other vehicle.
17:21<Touqen>So it's "right" but not "correct".
17:21<pasky>isn't that what ammler wanted?
17:22<Sacro>Mchl: i live in a house
17:22<dih>in a flat in a house
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17:23<Touqen>down by the river
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17:27<@Bjarni>dih: thanks
17:28<Touqen>You should totally rip out squirrel and replace the NoAI programming language with scheme.
17:31<Touqen>(car 'woot')
17:33<Touqen>Hmm.. that's wrong :/
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17:39<Sacro>Four of the five crew members were slightly injured during the accident which fortunately left the 747 in good shape, despite having split in two
17:42<@Bjarni>I wouldn't trust a plane split in two to be in good shape
17:42<Sacro>Bjarni: meh, it'll buff right out
17:42<@Bjarni>but whoever wrote that should feel free to try to fly with that thing
17:43<@Bjarni>as long as he will be in safe distance from me
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17:43<Touqen>Bjarni: You'd be surprised much a plane can be fixed right up in a jiffy.
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17:45<Touqen>Damned fingers dropping words on me again.
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>you can counter that by packing additional words for safetx
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18:22<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Gaffer tape the two ends together, it'll be fine.
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18:24<Touqen>100 mph tape :D
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18:30<Mido>does anybody know how the custom music thing in the jukebox works?
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18:31<Arie->just say yes and then be silent ;)
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18:31<Arie->you answered his question
18:31<Prof_Frink>Arie-: Sacro is not in that group.
18:32<Prof_Frink>Sacro is not in the group of knowing anything.
18:32<Rubidium>he could still answer a question by saying something random
18:32<Sacro>he asked if "anybody knew"
18:32<Mido>alright, let me refine my question. can anybody EXPLAIN the custom music feature.
18:32<Sacro>and yes, someone does
18:32<Sacro>Mido: yes
18:32<Mido>and DO so.
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18:44<Mchl>goodnight all
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause2>the key to solving a problem is to ask the right question
18:51<Touqen>The great Eddi-san has spoken.
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>and by induction you get: the solution of a problem is a series of right questions
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>Touqen: actually, G. Cantor said that [in a slight variation]
18:53<Touqen>I see.
18:53-!-glx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>and my school was named after that person...
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>which might or might not be just a coincidence :p
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19:01<Mido>and still nobody has told me how to use custom music -_-
19:01<Touqen>Apparently you haven't yet hit the series of right questions.
19:02<Mido>Oh but I have.
19:02<Mido>i refined my question several times
19:02<Mido>the most recent edition of the question is
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2>apparently not, you would have your answer if that was the case
19:03<Mido>Mido> alright, let me refine my question. can anybody EXPLAIN the custom music feature.
19:03<Mido>Mido> and DO so.
19:03<+glx>in music gui?
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19:03<Mido>The jukebox
19:04<+glx>it's just to allow you to make your own playlist with ttd music
19:04<+glx>like the 3 predifined styles
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19:07<Mido>......thats incredibly pointless....the game only comes with 20 or so songs
19:07<+glx>it was nice in 1995
19:07<Mido>most of which are under a minute long
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19:07<Mido>not to mention how annoying the music gets after hearing it hundreds of times
19:08<Mido>anyways...there must be some way to get the game to play music from a folder
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. start winamp, add music, press play, minimise to tray :p
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19:13<Mido>yeah i know but it would be useful if you could configure the in game jukebox to play it so you dont have to minimize the game every time you want to change to a specific song
19:14<Touqen>Why play in fullscreen?
19:14<Eddi|zuHause2>why would you do that?
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>real operating systems can display non-fullscreen-applications without exiting full screen
19:16*Sacro huggles QNX
19:16*Sacro also huggles Bjarni
19:17*Touqen pokes indiscriminately.
19:19-!-elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:20<dih>i want a hug tooo
19:20*Touqen gropes dih
19:21<Touqen>There, you go.
19:21<dih>i dont even know that word
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19:21*dih visits
19:22*Bjarni stabs Sacro
19:22<@Bjarni>it was in self defence
19:22<@Bjarni>he wanted to rape me >_<
19:22<Sacro>Bjarni: i didn't want to
19:22<Sacro>the gnomes told me to
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19:23*dih corrects the url to
19:24*Bjarni notes that Sacro listens to his parents
19:24<Sacro>these farts are tocix
19:24<dih>Touqen: you nasty little pervert
19:24<dih>i asked for a hug - not some other kind of game of yours...
19:25<@Bjarni>dih: you ask people on the internet to get close to you
19:25<@Bjarni>you should have expected this to happen
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>what a perfect world it would be if everybody got what he asked for...
19:25*dih slaps Eddi
19:26<dih>you never aksed for it, but still got it ^^
19:26<ben_goodger>dih: if you're looking up "grope" you will be unpleasantly surprised
19:26<ben_goodger>not really
19:26<@Bjarni>Sacro keeps on asking for boobs
19:26<ben_goodger>that wouldn't work, in any case.
19:26<@Bjarni>but I don't think he needs to invest in a bra just yet
19:27<dih>Bjarni: Sacro would, of course he would - be the only pair he'd ever get ^^
19:27<@Bjarni>he actually claims to have fucked his friend's ex girlfriend o_O
19:28<ben_goodger>some people would be wishing "الله ، يرجى تدمير اسرائيل" and others would be wishing "I'd quite like everyone to live happily with each other" and those two are mutually exclusive
19:28<@Bjarni>we can only imagine why she ended up in a mental hospital
19:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have these characters...
19:28<@Bjarni>lucky you
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19:29<dih>Eddi: i assume you have other characters then?
19:29<dih>you scizo
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>we are not schitzophrenic!!
19:29<@Bjarni>it would appear that it's Arabic and calling god (Allah?) to destroy Israel
19:30<@Bjarni>but the real question is... where did ben_goodger get that quote from?
19:30<Sacro> NSFW XD
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>who works on a sunday night?
19:31<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause2: arabic for "god, please destroy israel", according to google translate
19:31<ben_goodger>evidently the destruction of the jews is incompatible with global harmony
19:31<@Bjarni>but working as a student gives me a very forgiving boss when it comes to clicking links
19:31<ben_goodger>Bjarni: google translate's statistical translation system is very, very, _very_ good
19:31<ben_goodger>Sacro: fake
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19:32<Sacro>ben_goodger: nah, got to be real
19:32<Sacro>look at the roundness
19:32<Sacro>the glisten
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't have any spare bandwidth
19:32<Sacro>then you are missing out
19:32<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: with your bandwidth then you shouldn't waste any of it on Sacro links
19:33<@Bjarni>specially not after somebody declares it fake
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>i was not going to ;)
19:33<ben_goodger>I mean the inflation. it's blatantly done with a pump of some sort. also, it wouldn't make that noise
19:33<@Bjarni><ben_goodger> Bjarni: google translate's statistical translation system is very, very, _very_ good <-- I have seen google translate create some wtf translations
19:34<ben_goodger>Bjarni: it was only introduced in the last few months afaik
19:34<@Bjarni>like when it claimed that the "ink band" from the typewriter were used to build a snowplow
19:34<ben_goodger>it does funny things with german sometimes
19:35<ben_goodger>it's quite poor at russian also; but it will learn as it gets more and more suggestions to
19:35<ben_goodger>play with
19:35<ben_goodger>bayes' formula is like that ^^
19:35<@Bjarni>it was supposed to be some sort of rotating metal spikes
19:36<@Bjarni>I wonder what will happen if we give feedback on how it could be translated and we write weird stuff
19:36<@Bjarni>would it fuck up the translator or do they filter out stuff
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2>it will first fuck up the translator, and then they improve the filters
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>it was like this with the search engine, too
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause2>first people started to put senseless words into pages, so they would show up on top of the results
19:38<Eddi|zuHause2>and then they improved the weighting algorithm
19:38<@Belugas>Mido, the game, as it is, does not allow any kinf of music addition. When I want to listen to music, most of the time, i juist put winamp on random. Works fine.
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19:39<@Bjarni>Even today's most sophisticated software, however, doesn't approach the fluency of a native speaker or possess the skill of a professional translator. <-- I disagree. Sometimes google translate can be just as good as real translators
19:40<@Bjarni>but maybe that tells something about the quality of some professional translators :P
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19:41<ben_goodger>I think it won't have that much of an effect
19:41<@Bjarni>I have actually seen somebody linking to an official translation, the original text and as a comment to those links he said that he hoped they used a computer to translate because if a person did that translation then they hired the wrong guy
19:41<Eddi|zuHause2>typical problems of translators are hidden connotations of words, or names that are not identified as such, because they look like normal words
19:43<@Bjarni>I have actually seen google translate identify names of people and translate accordingly (unlike babelfish that created wtf stuff of the same string)
19:43<Rubidium>Google is inconsequent with translations
19:44<Rubidium>in the same sentence it can translate a person's name in two different ways
19:45<@Bjarni>just found something that can mess up google translate
19:46<@Bjarni>and I think it's unfixable :P
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19:46<@Bjarni>ゆき太郎 (translate this from Japanese to English). It will identify it as the name of a person and write "Taro Yuki" which is correct
19:47<@Bjarni>however if it's the name of a robot then the correct translation would be "Yukitaro"
19:47<@Bjarni>but it's written in the same way in Japanese
19:47<Rubidium>got to love context, right?
19:47<@Bjarni>so I have no idea on how to tell the translator what to write XD
19:48<@Bjarni><Rubidium> got to love context, right? <-- yeah but how would you tell google translate the context?
19:48<Eddi|zuHause2>just try to translate "Zug" from german to english :p
19:49<@Bjarni>I excepted that ;)
19:49<Eddi|zuHause2>but does it know the other 20 meanings?
19:49<@Bjarni>expected >_<
19:49<Sacro>it means trainn
19:50<Sacro>or isn't that bahn
19:50<Sacro>like u-bah and bahnplatz
19:50<Eddi|zuHause2>from "motorbike with a trailer" over "wind in a room" to "town in switzerland"?
19:50<@Bjarni>Sacro: is train and railroad the same word?
19:50<Sacro>Bjarni: well yes
19:50<Sacro>we use train station and raliway station interchangebly
19:51<@Bjarni>can you always replace train with railroad and vice versa in all sentences?
19:51<Eddi|zuHause2>"Das Meerschweinchen hat Zug abbekommen" does not mean "the guinea-pig was overrund by a train"
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19:52<@Bjarni>it means
19:52<@Bjarni>The guinea pig train has abbekommen"
19:52<@Bjarni>what is that newline doing there?
19:52<Sacro>Bjarni: pissing you off
19:52<@Bjarni>google added a newline o_O
19:52<Sacro>and wasting SpComb's server space
19:52<Eddi|zuHause2>argh fucking google stroke again... the dropdown buttons do not work in konqueror
19:53<@Bjarni>try firefox
19:53<@Bjarni>if you have the bandwidth to download it
19:53<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah... but i hate firefox
19:53<Eddi|zuHause2>i have it installed
19:54<Eddi|zuHause2>for really desperate times
19:54<Eddi|zuHause2>like when i want something from sourceforge
19:54<@Bjarni>maybe you should try it when konquror fails
19:54<@Bjarni>and no Sacro, I don't mean "failse" :P
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19:55<Eddi|zuHause2>but really, how bad is google translator if it cannot get the meaning of such a simple word like "abbekommen"?
19:56<@Bjarni>at least it says beta
19:56<+glx>like all other google services ;)
19:56<Eddi|zuHause2>isn't google synonym for "eternally beta"?
19:57<@Bjarni>but you who is presumed to be the best one of us as German should tell them how to translate this line
19:57<@Bjarni>and you have done a good deed
19:58<@Bjarni>that page appears to know something google didn't
19:59<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it's not a computer generated translation :p
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19:59<Eddi|zuHause2>oh, and for the record:
19:59<@Bjarni>that page reminds me... some installer for a commercial game could make two installs... it could make Deutsch" and "Englisch"
20:00<Sacro>damn germans
20:00<@Bjarni>and then you see this you start to wonder about the quality of the translation of this game that was developed in Germany
20:01<dih>my grandparents live in richmond
20:01<@Bjarni>Hitler won the battle of Britain?
20:01<@Bjarni>dih: I think there is a problem with your translator
20:01<@Bjarni>it looks like you ended up saying something off topic
20:02<Sacro>no, it is regarding my link i think
20:02<dih>so right back at ya!
20:02<Eddi|zuHause2>"Für Öffnung sehen Zeiten Plakat, zu reisen Planer." <- precious ;)
20:02<Sacro>Prof_Frink: MORGENBURG HALBMOND!
20:02<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: what does it meeeeeeeean D:
20:02<@Bjarni>dih: <-- are you in this one?
20:03<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: it is totally rubbish...
20:03<@Bjarni>as usual
20:03<Sacro>For opening times see poster, to travel planner
20:03<Sacro>that makes sense
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20:04<Sacro>ooh tasty
20:04*Sacro noms on daspork
20:05<Sacro>damnit, i want sausages now
20:05<dih>sie ze träfl pläna
20:05<@Bjarni> <-- haha... they are all great and on topic (except for the last one)
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20:07<@Bjarni>I was just attacked
20:07<@Bjarni>by sleepiness
20:07<@Bjarni>gotta go to bed before I can't anymore
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20:08<daspork>So, Ive been playing ottd for a while, I was wondering if there is a winning strategy for city growth?
20:09<Sacro>yes there is
20:09<daspork>do tell, or point me to a resource if you could.
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it's a secret
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>or alternatively, place 5 bus stations and let the busses circle
20:11<Sacro>i might use that german map for the tt-meet
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you'll get hopelessly lost :p
20:12<daspork>while playing I thought I noticed a trend for them to grow when i fed them goods, but now im not sure :)
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you are not sure ;)
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20:13<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: no, i know most of the translations
20:13<Eddi|zuHause2>no really, it does not matter what you transport, only how many stations you service
20:13<daspork>cool, thanks
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause2>oh, and arctic towns may need food, and desert towns food and water
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20:31<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13256 /trunk/src/ (12 files):
20:31<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: merge the OPTS and PATS chuncks.
20:31<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: split the diff_custom variable.
20:31<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Feature: allow changing some of the diff_custom variables via the console in network games.
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20:49<Touqen>nice... I killed intellisense :/
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21:05<Mido>anybody up for some multiplayer?
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21:37<Touqen>I've got alcohol. Anyone care to guess what?
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21:56<Touqen>Anyone of you UKers want to mail me some prawn flavoured crips?
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22:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13257 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix(r13226): Typo has found its way on the code... Thanks cirdan
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---Logclosed Mon May 26 00:00:38 2008