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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-06

---Logopened Fri Jun 06 00:00:47 2008
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02:49<Pikka>anyone know offhand how often TTD/OTTD adds inflation?
02:53<@peter1138>monthly
02:53<Pikka>yar...
02:54*Pikka is looking at the inflation normalising thing, going to post an "official" suggestion on the forums.
02:55<@peter1138>mhmm
02:55<Pikka>it's a question of how low you can go before it all gets a bit silly...
02:55*peter1138 has a tiny so far that sets the initial costs to what it would be
02:55<@peter1138>yeah
02:56<@peter1138>*tiny patch
02:56<Pikka>that's pretty much all that is required though, is it not? setting the initial costs and payment rates?
03:00-!-mikl [~mikl@adsl.peytz.dk] has joined #openttd
03:00<Pikka>although I suppose.. hmm...
03:00*Pikka writes in the forum
03:01<@peter1138>could be a problem if it goes too low
03:01<Pikka>yes
03:01<Pikka>I had an idea that we could cap deflation at 1860 levels, and have no inflation before 1860.
03:02<Pikka>(1860 being the year when 20 1920 pounds, the lowest standard base cost, = 1 pound at 5% inflation)
03:10<Pikka>hmm... does it round costs up or does it just lose the decimals?
03:10<Pikka>20 pounds = 15 pounds on easy. :O
03:10*Pikka redoes calculations
03:10<@peter1138>heh
03:11<@peter1138>the normal inflation routing has a 'fraction' value
03:11*peter1138 ponders
03:11<Pikka>yes. but when it actually comes to charging you money, it just uses the non-fraction, right?
03:12<Pikka>so 99c = $0
03:12<@peter1138>yes
03:12<Pikka>so
03:12<Pikka>1866 is the year when $15 in 1920 > $1
03:13<@peter1138>it's not that accurate by the way
03:13<@peter1138>also depends on the inflation rate
03:15<Pikka>yeah, that's at 5%
03:15<Pikka>which is the maximum, yes?
03:15<@peter1138>4 is maximum
03:15<Pikka>oh
03:16<@peter1138>hmm, i need to adjust initial loan too
03:16<Pikka>1853 :O
03:16<Pikka>yeah. initial loans of < 100k would be good
03:18<Pikka>okay, at 4% 15 1920 pounds = 1.11 pounds in 1855. sounds okay.
03:18<@peter1138>float f = (float)price * pow(1 + (float)_economy.infl_amount / 100 / 12, 12 * (_cur_year - 1920));
03:19<Pikka>that looks a lot like the equation I'm using :)
03:19<@peter1138>evil floats!
03:19<Pikka>yes? :O
03:20<@peter1138>that's accurate, heh
03:20<@peter1138>but the running inflation is not
03:20<Pikka>that's no problem... ballpark is good enough :)
03:20<@peter1138>it's out by 1.1%
03:21<Pikka>why 1.1%?
03:22<@peter1138>it just is :)
03:22<@peter1138>65536 / 54 / 12, "obviously"
03:23<Pikka>heh :)
03:26<Pikka>do you think the idea of having no inflation before a particular year is feasable and/or sensible?
03:26<@peter1138>yeah
03:26<@peter1138>easy to do
03:26<@peter1138>we already have no inflation after a certain date
03:27<@peter1138>hmm
03:27<@peter1138>no we don't
03:27<@peter1138>we used to
03:27<@Rubidium>inflation currently stops after 150-ish game years
03:27<@peter1138>i think the long year change buggered that
03:27<@peter1138>it's still MAX_YEAR
03:27<@peter1138>which is 500,000
03:27<Pikka>lol
03:27<@peter1138>err + 0
03:28<@peter1138>oh
03:28<@peter1138>no it's not
03:28<@peter1138>there are two tests :o
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03:29<@Rubidium> if ((_cur_year - _settings_game.game_creation.starting_year) >= (ORIGINAL_MAX_YEAR - ORIGINAL_BASE_YEAR)) return;
03:29<@peter1138>stops after 170 years after game start
03:29<@peter1138>(or)
03:29<@peter1138>stops before 500000
03:29<@peter1138>if (_settings_game.economy.inflation && _cur_year < MAX_YEAR)
03:29<@peter1138>,...,...AddInflation();
03:30<@Rubidium>though it's 5 million years
03:31-!-GoneWacko [~gonewacko@adsl-58.36.Static.ssp.fi] has joined #openttd
03:31<Pikka>so if we're normalising inflation, may want to change that to 170 years after 1920? :)
03:34<TiberiusTeng>peter1138, thanks for your diff file, it really helps
03:35<TiberiusTeng>no I'm really playable in OpenGL, albeit with some glitches and performance issues
03:36<TiberiusTeng>glReadPixels/glDrawPixels and copying between back/fron buffers are really costly ...
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03:36<iAN_>good morning every single one!
03:37<Pikka>bonjour
03:39<Tefad>CA VA
03:40<Tefad>JE SUIS UNE VACHE MEEEUUUHHH
03:40<Pikka>him too
03:41*TiberiusTeng wonders if I should cleanup New Graphics first
03:43<TiberiusTeng>really wish to see that in trunk too, but the code's a mess I'd admit
03:44*LA advertises WWOTTDGD 2: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37878
03:46<@peter1138>Pikka: well, normalisation should be optional, along with things it changes.
03:46<@peter1138>i imagine the people who like to start in 2050 won't like it ;)
03:47<@peter1138>mind you they probably play with inflation off anyway
03:47<Eddi|zuHause2><Belugas> Eddi|zuHause3, the global variables that you mentionned is not exactly the same that mb was referring to ;) <- of course not, i tend to have a much more general view on things :p
03:47<Pikka>there are people who like to start in 2050?
03:48<@peter1138>somehow, yeah
03:48<iAN_>?!?
03:48<@peter1138>they like maglev only, heh
03:48<iAN_>what is maglevel?
03:49<LA>Magnetic Levitation :P
03:49<TiberiusTeng>oh, a naive question: OTTD won't stop players from continue playing after 2050/2090 in single player mode, right?
03:49<LA>naiive indeed
03:49<@peter1138>no it won't
03:50<@peter1138>naïve, if you feel the need to correct incorrectly.
03:50<TiberiusTeng>if I want to play a 'model rail' then I'll cheat to 2050 in the beginning :p
03:50<LA>peter1138: I wasn't correcting
03:50<TiberiusTeng>sorry, actually I really don't know how to type that character
03:50<@peter1138>s/correct/spell/g then ;p
03:51<@peter1138>TiberiusTeng: not you :)
03:51<TiberiusTeng>;)
03:53<TiberiusTeng>ha, picked up OTTD again last week after I know it can load multiple GRF engine sets
03:53<TiberiusTeng>but I don't even started to play it
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03:54<TiberiusTeng>but instead drown into these codes and patches =)
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03:55<TiberiusTeng>for my opengl thing, profiler shows the load went into nvoglnt.dll
03:55<LA>peter1138: what exactly stops from using extended byte in cost factor? The nfo version could be bumped when all the changes about loading multiple sets get done.. I mean it's quite a big change
03:55<iAN_>It seems to me that this channel is full of coders and patchers and none actually is playing it except me
03:55<TiberiusTeng>maybe the driver decided to do it with software ... sigh :(
03:55<LA>iAN_: I'm playing.. sometimes
03:55<TiberiusTeng>seems it's a good chance to play with NVPerfKit
03:56<Pikka>I am outta here, anyway... later all
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03:57<iAN_>Who could explain to me or point me to an URL where in detail is explained how this f$*ng cargo rating is calculated?
03:57<LA>wait a moment
03:57<@Rubidium>wiki/Game Mechanics
03:57<@Rubidium>or something like that
03:57<iAN_>I thought I figured out how to increase it (large advertising) but in my new game it just sits at 66/67 percent
03:58<LA>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Game_mechanics
03:58<TiberiusTeng>keep your train wait for full loading in the station
03:58<iAN_>all trains are on full load
03:58<iAN_>even that "always" a train is there (two at station at any time, so one is loading at any time)
03:59<LA>and you have about 80% rating yes?
03:59<Eddi|zuHause2>iAN_: advertising is only temporary, it will slowly fall back to normal level
03:59<iAN_>66 to 67
03:59<Eddi|zuHause2>iAN_: a statue adds 10% permanently
04:00<LA>then your trains are old
04:00<iAN_>even with advertising I can't raise over 69
04:00<iAN_>I started a NEW GAME!
04:00<iAN_>I bet the trains are not too old!
04:00<LA>do'nt shout
04:00<iAN_>sorry
04:00<Eddi|zuHause2>you get bonus if the vehicle is <2 years old
04:01<Eddi|zuHause2>and advertising will only have an effect if you are within the town's local authority (you can view that with the ? tool)
04:02<iAN_>okay. thanks for the URL. older than two years at least subtracts no malus then
04:02<iAN_>I think my trains max speed is 80kph (hoppers can go 80 max, engine coulg go faster, but I assume 80 is used)
04:03<iAN_>80/4 = 20 points for speed.
04:03<iAN_>130 points because cargo is picked up at any time
04:03<iAN_>40 points because less than 40 cargo is waiting
04:04<Eddi|zuHause2>@calc 190/256
04:04<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: 0.7421875
04:04<iAN_>sums up to 190 points. divided by 256 = 74%
04:04<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe your estimation is a little off
04:05<iAN_>so.. If 75% are needed for a month to increase mining/production I have to find a way to "cheat" a bit
04:06<iAN_>I could built a statue in town (+10%)
04:06<Eddi|zuHause2>(Speed (km/h) - 85) / 4
04:06<iAN_>whoops..
04:06<Eddi|zuHause2>so you get 0 from that one
04:06<Eddi|zuHause2>@calc 170/256
04:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: 0.6640625
04:06<iAN_>see.. -> that are my 66/67 %
04:06<iAN_>:-(
04:06<Eddi|zuHause2>like i said, if you are in local authority zone, get a statue
04:07<iAN_>statue just helps in local authority zone(?)
04:07<iAN_>wiki does not have this requirement listed.
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04:07<Eddi|zuHause3>ups
04:08<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it might just be the nearest town, not sure
04:10<iAN_>whohoo!!! perfect.
04:11<iAN_>spend 300.000 into one statue
04:11<iAN_>all stations wnt up to 77%
04:11<iAN_>perfect!
04:11<iAN_>thanks a lot(!)
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04:17<dih>iAN_: why do you not read wiki.openttd.org?
04:17<dih>some people have actually gone to the strange extreeme to actually document some stuff there
04:17<@peter1138>it's not the easiest things to search in
04:18-!-mikl [~mikl@adsl.peytz.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:18<@peter1138>and it's tricky to search when you don't know what you should be searching for
04:19<dih>wiki.openttd.org -> Gameplay Manual
04:19<dih>uh - so hard
04:19<dih>uh - look! there is a menu on the right hand side of that page
04:20<dih>hmmm
04:20<dih>'more topics'?
04:20<@peter1138>don't argue with me
04:20<dih>wow! industries, towns, economy, TIPS....
04:20<dih>this is just so hard
04:21<dih>none of those topics say 'my industry is producing so little, what should i do'
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04:24<iAN_>dih: maybe those who have written down all those facts should have choosen other headlines.
04:25<LA>iAN_: Well.. Youmay fix it.. It's wiki
04:25<dih>iAN_: yes! all headlines around me are just BAD
04:25<iAN_>Its one side to work/dig into the code and write down the facts which are coded there. Its another when a "player" just wonders why the rating does not go over 66
04:26<dih>you know, if everything around me had a glitch, i'd start thinking if it was not me!
04:26<dih>iAN_: GAMEPLAY MANUAL
04:26<dih>not coders guide!
04:26<dih>not developers guide!
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04:26<dih>what of the wiki pages have you read and _NOT_ understood
04:27<Pikka>!logs
04:27<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
04:27<iAN_>dih: as a "stupid user" I went to the search line, entered "station rating" and ended up on: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Economy1:Station_Rating
04:29<dih>if i search for 'station rating' i also get local authority, game mechanics, tips
04:29<dih>wow - not bad
04:29<dih>game mechanics!
04:29<LA>hmm.. stewed chicken is pretty good.. mmmmm
04:29<iAN_>game mechanics is point number 11. After 10 pages telling me nothing about station rating at all
04:30<dih>so you give up
04:30<dih>and you give up after entering ONE search term?
04:30<iAN_>yes. I did not intend to read more than the first 3 hits of that search result
04:30<dih>c'mon
04:30<Eddi|zuHause3>guess what, if you say "increase station rating", it's the top 3
04:30<dih>you cannot even call that searching
04:31<iAN_>which led to the fact that I found _this_ channel for further information
04:31<dih>lazy little git!
04:31<dih>:-P
04:32<dih>iAN_: at least now you know what you can do when you have another openttd issue!
04:32<iAN_>yep. Asking you seems a great way to get the needed help very quick
04:32<dih>iAN_: read through this http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Manual:Main_Page
04:33<dih>iAN_: i see now point in helping those who dont read readme's or any other provided documentation
04:33<dih>unless you can understand 'help me how to search the wiki' as help
04:33<dih>and if you consider 'the direct answer' rather than 'how to find the answer myself' help, then i pitty you!
04:35<TiberiusTeng>I just can't resist the tempt to modify gfx.cpp and spritecache.cpp ...
04:35<dih>iAN_: you have officially been RTFM'd
04:36<TiberiusTeng>(it's better for spritecache calling blitter to do some cleanup before they ditch the cached sprite)
04:37<TiberiusTeng>but ahhhh .... my notebook at school don't have GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two ... that really hurts.
04:39<iAN_>dih: How to find information about the trains of the "expansion" sets?
04:40<planetmaker>probably the readme which comes with them... or the related tt-forums thread(s)
04:40<Eddi|zuHause3>in that set's readme
04:40<planetmaker>or the author's website
04:41<dih>iAN_: have you ever had a goog look at what you use?
04:41<dih>what you download?
04:41<dih>the files that may be included?
04:41<dih>"oh - and 'readme.txt' is not for me! that's for developers!"
04:43-!-Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
04:44<dih>iAN_: and the openttdcoop grfpack includes readme files if the authors asked for them
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04:45<dih>and if they are not there, you could use google and search for the name of the grf?
04:45<dih>uh
04:45<dih>wow
04:45<dih>how does he come up with things like that!
04:46<dih>what do you do when you have issues with ms office?
04:46<iAN_>ok, readme found, read. no information about the prices available. How to get them?
04:46<dih>do you visit irc://irc.live.com/msoffice2003 ?
04:46<iAN_>I call Microsoft
04:46<dih>you twat! :-P
04:46<planetmaker>build a depot and look :) It depends upon difficulty setting
04:47<dih>iAN_: search the forums!
04:47<dih>search for the name of the grf (google)
04:47<planetmaker>^easiest is still a short test game with "vehicles don't expire" in the year 2050.
04:48<iAN_>"Somehow" my trains are unbelievabel expensive since I installed the new version and the "grf-pack". I assume that either "one of those hundret grfs" or a "patch-setting" made them expensive
04:48<dih>some grf's bump building cost
04:48<@Rubidium>dbsetxl?
04:48<dih>like pb_build
04:48<@Rubidium>lv4?
04:48<iAN_>dbsetXL + ECS expansion
04:48<dih>there you have it
04:49<iAN_>I'm using the #openttdcoop NewGrf Package - Version 7.0
04:49<dih>http://www.google.de/search?q=dbsetxl
04:49<planetmaker>dbsetXL has one of the most expensive engines
04:50<TiberiusTeng>that set have all the docs bundled -- inside each grf's directories.
04:50<dih>you probably also of deflation on, and have been playing for 200 years :-P
04:50<dih>google for 'dbsetxl' gives you at least 3 good hits!
04:50<dih>sorry
04:50<dih>the entire page has good hits!
04:51<@peter1138>"of deflation" ?
04:51<dih>*have :-P
04:51<dih>thanks peter1138
04:51<dih>wow - very bad typo
04:51<Eddi|zuHause3>there is no "deflation" setting
04:51<@peter1138>"deflation"?
04:51<dih>inflation :-P
04:51<dih>wow - does not even count as typo anymore ;-P
04:51<@peter1138>:)
04:51<Eddi|zuHause3>"deflation" is when you poke a hole in a tyre
04:52<@peter1138>or when you squash an iron
04:52<iAN_>ok. I'll stop now and go play outside. See you next week
04:52<dih>or when your spcial suite in hl has no power! :-P
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05:20<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13392 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_town.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: comment fix in AITown::GetLocation
05:21<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13393 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: return -1 (not 'false') on invalid industry with AIIndustry::NNNTransported()
05:21<Eddi|zuHause3>-1? hardcoded value?!?
05:23<@peter1138>-EINVALID_INDUSTRY
05:23<@peter1138>heh
05:23<dih>:-P
05:28<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13394 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make sure Doxygen gives a valid link for SorterType
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05:36<Eddi|zuHause3>back in 3 days... or something
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06:19<Neo_>plop
06:19*LA wonders if he should write a tutorial on how to make custom scenarios good, essy and fast...
06:20<LA>.. but that depends on if ppl actually know it already or not
06:20<LA>So how would you guys make interesting scenarios, if oyu need to make one?
06:21<Neo_>-_-
06:22<LA>_=_-_-_=_
06:22<LA>|=_-_=|
06:22<LA>=|< <--- a man
06:23<LA>=3< <--- a woman
06:25<Neo_>it should be cool if the 0.6.1 coming out on the iPhone
06:26<LA>wont be happening
06:26<LA>atleast officiallt
06:26<LA>t=y
06:27*planetmaker would appreciate: [12:19] * LA wonders if he should write a tutorial on how to make custom scenarios good, essy and fast...
06:27<LA>planetmaker: That also depends if the scenario I made was good...
06:28<planetmaker>hehe :) We will know much better after the event :)
06:28<planetmaker>but I like it.
06:28<LA>:)
06:28<LA>then I'll write how exactly I made it
06:29<Neo_>zodttd.com arent doing many updates for Open TTD on the iphone
06:29<planetmaker>make it a blog post, or a wiki entry
06:29<planetmaker>:)
06:33<LA>blog post to....
06:33<LA>where
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06:37<dih>laurel and stanley!
06:38<Neo_>: /
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06:54<Neo_>a bit desert here -_-
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07:05<planetmaker>LA: there: http://www.openttdcoop.org/blog/
07:06<LA>heh
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07:44<LA>wooh
07:44<LA>done
07:45<SpComb>what done?
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07:48<LA>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=37882 is done
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09:37<Mark17>hello, wouldnt it be great if people can go from city a to city b while stopping at city c (to transfer) and to build airports the way you need/want it? simutrans has this (but in most other parts openttd is really better)
09:39<dih>then play simutrans if you miss that feature
09:39<dih>define: build airports the way you need/want
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09:39<Mark17>more locations for airplanes to stop
09:40<Mark17>more runways
09:40<Mark17>currently 4 runways max if i am correct
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09:42<Mark17>dih: only transfering goods/people different (more like it is going in the reality) should be great if you ask me. for other parts openttd is way better
09:42<+glx>not possible because airports use a finite state machine
09:43-!-nick [nick@cpc3-nthc5-0-0-cust580.nrth.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
09:43<nick>hello
09:43<dih>was there not once an approach to make custom built airfields, glx?
09:43<Sacro>zomng di
09:43<nick>can anyone give me a small amount of assistance?
09:43<Sacro>nick: yes
09:43<dih>thought i saw something similar in the forms
09:43<Sacro>there you go
09:43<dih>could be wrong though
09:43<nick>pm, or in main chat?
09:43<+glx>dih: there's newgrf_ports, but FSM will be still present (in newgrf)
09:44<dih>nick: here
09:44<Sacro>nick: main is easier
09:44<nick>ok
09:44<dih>glx: FSM?
09:44<nick>well i have installed openttd on a linux vps i have
09:44<+glx>finite state machine
09:44<nick>copied all the required files
09:44<dih>ah!
09:44<nick>and have run the server with the -D switch
09:44<nick>but i cant find openttd.cfg
09:45<nick>its not in /usr/share/games/openttd/
09:45<+glx>~/.openttd/
09:45<dih>nick you did not read the readme file, did you!
09:45<nick>and even after copying my cfg from my windows computer to the vps
09:45<Sacro>glx: you win!
09:45<nick>it runs but still doesnt use my cfg, i can tell as it isnt binding the ip address
09:45<dih>how many ip's do you have on the vps?
09:46<nick>just the one i beleive
09:46<dih>then you dont want to bind to an ip!
09:46<nick>i know
09:46<nick>i will remove
09:46<nick>but i just want it to load my cfg
09:46<dih>read the readme please
09:46<dih>then the wiki
09:46<nick>i have done
09:46<dih>if it's not taking the cfg file in ~/.openttd
09:46<nick>yes?
09:47<dih>you can afaik specify one with -c <path/to/config/file.cfg>
09:47<nick>ah ok
09:47<dih>as normal with linux
09:47<dih>linux command line options
09:47<nick>openttd -D -c /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd.cfg
09:47<dih>there is a --help
09:47<nick>will that work
09:47<dih>nick
09:47<Sacro>i doubt that
09:47<dih>try it and tell me
09:47<Sacro>the devs are usually drunk
09:47-!-Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you asked for it]
09:47<Mark17>different airport design is impossible if i understand it corectly, but transfering goods/passengers might be possible however i think (because in reality this is also done really often. like i want to go from amsterdam to new york (i can transfer at london for a cheaper/faster flight))
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09:48<dih>and why dont you move your config to ~/.openttd/ ?
09:48<Sacro>:o
09:48<dih>Mark17: just play the game!
09:48<dih>transfer is possible
09:48<LA>Mark17: hmm.. do you want passenger destinations?
09:48<+glx>Mark17: it's possible, but only for one way routes
09:48<dih>passenger destinations afaik did not make it to trunk
09:49<LA>ye, but there is apatch for it :)
09:49<dih>dont make it more complicated for his poor brain LA
09:49<dih>he just had to sort the config file thing
09:49<dih>after _not_ reading the readme file!
09:49<LA>dih, mark17 and nick are not the same persons
09:49<LA>;P
09:50<dih>oh shoot!
09:50<dih>i hate this day!
09:50<dih>;-)
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09:51<Mark17>i just thought maybe it is a nice option for the future (if not available now with a patch), so you can move people using a bus connection in the city and trains or airplanes for the longer distances
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09:52<Mark17>just like it is in reality when you want to use the public transport
09:52<+glx>you can but only in one way
09:52<Mark17>glx: i know, but i want to know if 2-way is possible somehow or maybe an idea for the future
09:53<+glx>not yet, maybe one day if someone code the feature
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09:54<Mark17>i will start looking in the code soon and when i have a working solution i will make the code public, is that a problem?
09:54<nick>dih: the -c worked :)
09:54<nick>many thanks
09:54<LA>mark17, to make thigns too complicated for you, look at tt-forums, openttd development, passenger destinations patch
09:56<dih>nick
09:56<dih>move your config file to ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
09:56<dih>then you dont need the -c option!
09:56<dih>as stated in the README file
09:56<nick>ah ok
09:56<nick>silly me
09:56<dih>yes
09:56<dih>we have been saying that a few times in the last 50 rows! :-P
09:57<LA>hmm silly he yes?
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09:57<Sacro>http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/TankGSTVwallpapert.JPG <3 dutch camoflauge
09:58<LA>roffel
09:58<Mark17>LA: thanks
09:58<LA>that was what you were looking for?
09:59<Mark17>probably yes la
09:59<LA>k
09:59<Mark17>Sacro: we dont use that one in iraq ;)
09:59<dih>Sacro: hide :-P
10:00<nick>dih: there is no such openttd directory in ~
10:01<LA>nick /home/nickorwhateverusernameyouvegot/.openttd
10:01<Mark17>nick: look for .openttd
10:01<+glx>.openttd
10:01<Mark17>or create it
10:01<LA>it's HIDDEN'
10:01<+glx>it's a hidden dir
10:01<Mark17>ls -all
10:01<LA>glx, I just said that
10:01<+glx>like most config dir in home
10:02*LA wonders why nick uses Console for file managing
10:02<Vikthor>Sacro: That's nothing, see this http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Lesany_military_muzeum_4101.JPG
10:02<Sacro>hmmm
10:02<dih>LA: he said it's a vps!
10:03<+glx>Vikthor: at least it's ok for snow
10:03<LA>virtual private server ?
10:03<Mark17>LA: i guess
10:03<dih>Vikthor: the orange one is better :-P
10:03<Mark17>and only commandline access
10:03<Vikthor>glx, that's not white, that's pink :D
10:03<LA>nick, try 'cd .openttd' then...
10:04<dih>glx: the tank is also good for pig wars!
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10:05<dih>nick: ls does not show . directories!
10:05<dih>you need ls -a
10:05<dih>and if you started openttd before
10:05<dih>it will have created the folder already
10:06<nick>spot on guys
10:06<nick>got it
10:06<nick>many thanks
10:06<dih>read the README file!
10:06<nick>what is the absolute path to that file then
10:06<dih>~/openttd/openttd.cfg
10:06<dih>where ~ = your home directory
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10:07<Sacro>~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
10:07<Sacro>surely
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10:08<dih>Sacro: ah - yeah :-P
10:08<dih>lol
10:08<@Rubidium>http://hg.openttd.org:8000/branches/0.6.hg/raw-file/553fe7b5c5e0/readme.txt <- that's absolute and should work
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10:19<nick>how do you enable trams ?
10:22<@peter1138>you need a tramset, enabled via the newgrf window. i think 0.6.x include one.
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10:32<dih>0.6.x. included a newgrf window or tramset
10:32<dih>i thought no tramsets were included with openttd
10:32<@peter1138>grvts?
10:33<nick>there is a tramset included
10:33<nick>how do i enable it in linux ?
10:33<@peter1138>i dunno, i've never installed it :)
10:33<nick>ah ok
10:33<+glx>you enable it like other grfs
10:33<nick>one thing that upsets me about openttd :(
10:33<nick>when you build roads(and tramways)
10:33<nick>and you just want a bend, but you end up with crossroads going no where
10:34<@peter1138>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Newgrf < "Activating NewGRFs"
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10:34<@peter1138>well you can remove the bits of road you don't want
10:34<@peter1138>(using the bulldozer, shortcut 'r')
10:34<@peter1138>(or hold ctrl)
10:35<planetmaker>nick: I cannot follow you. I can build the tram ways as I desire - though of course sometimes I just click at the wrong place
10:35<nick>:)
10:35<nick>do you guys have an official OpenTTD server ?
10:36<+glx>no
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10:38<@Belugas>well... if you consider the machine hosting all the x.openttd.org an official server, then yes :)
10:38<dih>hehe
10:38<@Belugas>but somehow, i doubt it is it what you you meant :P
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10:59<nick>has anyone got experience using the tram set
10:59<Gekz>Naysayer be I.
11:02<@Belugas>nick, are you asking that because you have a problem? or just out of curiosity?
11:02<@Belugas>i have to confess i tried it once or twice, to get the feeling of it
11:04<@peter1138>confessions of a dev!
11:04<Touqen>But he didn't inhale.
11:05<@Belugas>oh yeah, i did, and more than once !
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11:07<@peter1138>:D
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11:07<Touqen>Scandalous!
11:08<Mark17>what do i wrong? i have the latest nightly build (downloaded 30 min. ago) and i try to patch it with a patch for new passenger destinations
11:08<Mark17>but it is missing a lot off the files
11:08<Mark17>i did download the source
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11:09<Touqen>the patches are old.
11:09<Touqen>A LOT has changed since that patch was written.
11:10<Gekz>and it was never updated due to fail
11:11<Mark17>:S
11:11<Touqen>You need to use the version of ottd that the patch was written for.
11:13<Mark17>well the patch is a year old and i cannot find a nightly build that is so old (only in 2008)
11:13<@Belugas>nightly???
11:13<@Belugas>you need the sources, not a compiled version
11:14<Touqen>Mark17: Use BuildOTTD
11:14<@Belugas>the patch will be used to chane the sources of the official version, than, you will need to compile it
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11:14<+glx>http://archive.openttd.org/ <-- all pre 2008 nightly sources
11:14<@Belugas>i THINK we should not use the word patch EVER when we speak about diffs...
11:15<Mark17>Belugas: the nightly sources is what i did take
11:15<+glx>but it's better to use svn if you can
11:15<Mark17>i did also test 2 .patch files
11:15<@Belugas>haaa.... well... don't
11:15<@Belugas>indeed, as glx pointed out
11:16<Mark17>it requires a password if i want to login to the svn server, but i will try to find it there
11:16<+glx>no
11:16<+glx>checkout is public
11:16<+glx>commits are "private"
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11:18<@Belugas>lucky for us...
11:29<TiberiusTeng>hope I can finish OpenGL palette lookup/animation tonight
11:29<TiberiusTeng>(23:30 here in Taiwan)
11:29<+glx>take the time you need
11:30<TiberiusTeng>it suddenly makes 32bpp use 5% cpu, rock solid at 60fps
11:30<+glx>that's a good start
11:30<@peter1138>but the game runs at 33 fps ;)
11:30<@Belugas>you are anmating rocks??
11:31<TiberiusTeng>maybe I did something wrong while flipping buffer, or maybe that's Fraps went crazy, who knows ;)
11:31<@peter1138>i noticed it was hugely fast on the normal zoom
11:31<TiberiusTeng>http://sbt.idv.tw/temp/080606-ottdgl3.jpg
11:31<@peter1138>but incredibly slow when zoomed out
11:31<@peter1138>but i'm not exactly experienced in opengl
11:32<@peter1138>(no shit, says anyone looking at my old patch)
11:32<TiberiusTeng>here's where I am, notice that text isn't paletted (yet).
11:32<+glx>the pink text reminds me peter1138's version
11:33<TiberiusTeng>http://sbt.idv.tw/temp/080606-ottdgl4.jpg
11:33<TiberiusTeng>where zoomed out the world
11:33<TiberiusTeng>ha
11:34<@peter1138>heh
11:34<@peter1138>i blame all those floats i used to crop sprites
11:35<@peter1138>have you encountered the thread problem, or are you doing things totally different to my patch?
11:35<TiberiusTeng>no, not actually
11:36<TiberiusTeng>the structure we used are almost the same, though I'd like to do some extra work on textures
11:36<TiberiusTeng>and utilize pixel buffers to improve mem<->card efficiency
11:36<TiberiusTeng>(looks not really need it though)
11:36<TiberiusTeng>I'm working with wiggle (Windows GL)
11:37<TiberiusTeng>and it even preserves framebuffer for me (i.e. I don't need to redraw overwritten places myself)
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11:38<@peter1138>yeah
11:38<@peter1138>that was the issue i had
11:38<@peter1138>and didn't bother looking into, heh
11:39<TiberiusTeng>and we both didn't scale the texture size to power of to
11:39<TiberiusTeng>two
11:39<TiberiusTeng>which means only GeForce 6100+ and Radeon 9550+ can run it ;)
11:40<TiberiusTeng>(and Intel 915+)
11:40<@peter1138>hmm
11:40<@peter1138>my gf4mx ran it okay
11:42<TiberiusTeng>maybe it didn't claim that extension with opengl but silently supported it (ARB_texture_non_power_of_two)
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11:44<TiberiusTeng>anyway, 8-bit palette texture and fragment shaders seems like mutually-exclusive functions, in my lists I don't see a card supporting them both
11:44<TiberiusTeng>which means a large compatibility problem, dammit ..
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11:51<stillunknown>You can always cheat and use a palette lookup texture, although i'm not sure how expensive that would be.
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11:53<TiberiusTeng>it would be very expensive on my card
11:54<TiberiusTeng>changing palette means: redraw the bitmap, and re-upload that texture into card
11:55<TiberiusTeng>paletted texture isn't supported on my card, but I can use fragment shader to emulate it, and yes, that's what I'm trying now ...
11:56<@peter1138>oh, are they removing 8bpp textures now? fucking card manufacturers...
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11:56<stillunknown>8 bit textures still exist, but i doubt paletted textures ever existed.
11:58<TiberiusTeng>yes, they exists ...
11:58<TiberiusTeng>http://www.nvidia.com/dev_content/nvopenglspecs/GL_EXT_paletted_texture.txt
11:59<+glx>not supported on mine
11:59<TiberiusTeng>FX5200's the last card from NV support it
11:59<TiberiusTeng>ATI never supported it
12:01<stillunknown>Nothing a fragment shader can't solve.
12:03<Ammler>peter1138: your answer yesterday to my question about the override was just "DEAD". :-) Does that mean, you don't like to include more sets there?
12:04<@peter1138>you didn't read the GRF IDs
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12:06<stillunknown>TiberiusTeng: Just create a 256x1 texture and use that as lookup table from a fragment shader, but i guess you were already doing that?
12:06<TiberiusTeng>yeah! XD
12:08<@peter1138>:o
12:08<@peter1138>evil :)
12:08<stillunknown>It's a very common technique.
12:11<stillunknown>Like when you want YUV to RGB conversion (and not rely on fixed conversion values).
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12:13<@peter1138>mmhmm
12:13<Ammler>peter1138: ok, I get you now. :-)
12:14<Ammler>but what do you prefer, getting a patch for it or keep it away?
12:14<Ammler>It's afiak the only missing combination
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12:28<@peter1138>Ammler: well if you can convince the author of the modification grf to include it, that would be better
12:29<Ammler>is there a special syntax if the source grf is the grf with that sprite?
12:30<@peter1138>no
12:30<@peter1138>works the same way
12:32<Ammler>hmm, usset is gpl, iirc
12:32<Ammler>I could add that sprite self, then.
12:32<Ammler>just need to post it in the forums :-)
12:33<@Belugas>???
12:33<@Belugas>don't you think we don't have enough problems already????
12:33<Ammler>hmm?
12:34<@Belugas>you want to modify the usset yourself???
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12:34<Ammler>only the ecs-adapter
12:34<Ammler>(adding a sprite)
12:34<@Belugas>who wrote that adapter?
12:34-!-birdspider [~birdspide@chello062178009208.4.11.tuwien.teleweb.at] has joined #openttd
12:34<Ammler>DEAD
12:34<@Belugas>who is DEAD?
12:35<Ammler>his nick is DEAD
12:35<Sacro>RIP :(
12:35<@Belugas>ok, have you consulted him?
12:35<Sacro>or his next of kin
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12:38<Ammler>Belugas: I can make a grf addon, if you do not like it, I was just asking which way you like most...
12:39<@Belugas>i have some reserve about modifying someone else's work withouth his consent and redistribute it afterward for sure...
12:39<Ammler>we will include a info.grf in the next GRFPack anyway, so I can add it there...
12:41<stillunknown>Belugas: if the license allows it
12:41<Ammler>USSet is the only official GPL GRF I know... :-)
12:42<Ammler>but also without sources...
12:42<@Belugas>still... asking is way more polite. I know. I had to deal with it while i was doing my ttrs version before newhouse...
12:43<@Belugas>so even if it says GO AHEAD, i am not convinced it should be butchered
12:43<stillunknown>Would you do that for every piece of software you ever touched (and changed)?
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12:43<Ammler>well, I guess, we should wait with asking until the whole engine_pool discussing is further...
12:43<@Belugas>1) i never changed any piece of software
12:43<@Belugas>2) all the binaries that I took stuff from was under permission
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12:44<@Belugas>3) all the code that i took and incorporate was known from the author
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12:45<stillunknown>Just obey license, and send stuff upstream if you want to be kind.
12:48<Ammler>peter1138: possible nforenum doesn't know Properity 11?
12:48<Ammler>-i
12:49-!-sickie88 [~sickie@BSN-250-61-220.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #openttd
12:49<Ammler>(using svn r1910)
12:50<frosch123>grf2html doesn't know either :(
12:50<Ammler>:-)
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12:50<DaleStan>Ammler: Because it ... wasn't properly specced, and I didn't notice the update.
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12:58<lvip>I just started openttd, and all I get is debug information.
12:59<lvip>No window or anything.
13:00<+glx>compiled yourself?
13:00<lvip>Yes.
13:00<+glx>o linux?
13:00<+glx>*on
13:00<lvip>Indeed.
13:00<+glx>without sdl-dev
13:00<lvip>:S
13:01<DaleStan>peter1138: What range of IDs is valid for feature 08 prop 11? (NFORenum objects violently if I don't tell it.)
13:01<lvip>Thanks.
13:01<Ammler>lvip: check the messages from ./configure and you will find some "not found" or similar.
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13:02<Ammler>did someone already play USSet and ECS?
13:02<Ammler>(together)
13:06<+glx>DaleStan: ID is ignored
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13:07<Ammler>ottd grf handling should be like 0.6.1 with engine_pool off?
13:10<Ammler>DaleStan: the example from openttd.grf: http://paste.openttd.org/13845
13:10<+glx>that wasn't his question ;)
13:11<+glx>and trunk has some more newgrf stuff
13:12<Ammler>glx: nvm, the usset ecs adapter doesn't work with trunk
13:12<DaleStan>And you didn't really answer my question either, glx. I wanted two numbers, not "ignored". I can't tell NFORenum "ignored".
13:13<Ammler>the example has 0 :-)
13:13<+glx>hmm we can force it to be 0
13:13<frosch123>no, the example has 0 to 3
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13:14<@peter1138>0 to 255 are valid
13:14<frosch123>"ignored" means 0 to 65535
13:14<@peter1138>(i.e. any byte value)
13:14<frosch123>(extended byte)
13:14<@peter1138>oh
13:14<@peter1138>then 0..65535 then :)
13:14<frosch123>:)
13:14<+glx>better use always 0 then
13:15<+glx>even if it has no meaning
13:15<@peter1138>no because then you need to write the action each time
13:15<@peter1138>18:09 Ammler> glx: nvm, the usset ecs adapter doesn't work with trunk
13:15<@peter1138>^ should do with multiple engine sets disabled
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13:16<Ammler>peter1138: just compared with 0.6.1, it works there
13:16<Wolf01>hello
13:19<Ammler>peter1138: I will update svn and try again
13:19<@peter1138>well did you read what i wrote?
13:19<DaleStan>Everyone OK with me coding NFORenum to allow any number of IDs, provided <first-id> is zero?
13:20<@peter1138>doesn't even matter what first id is
13:20<@peter1138>but zero is fine
13:21<Ammler>ah, I thought, that's something like a counter
13:21<Ammler>so it could also be 0 for both?
13:24<DaleStan>And that's how you add a new property for feature 08.
13:24<Ammler>lol, I see only one ID anyway in the example, can't read your syntax
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13:26<DaleStan>Becasue it's so obvious which changes do what, isn't it? :p (Coding Style and I have come to an agreement. It dies all on its own, and I don't get prosecuted for murder.)
13:28<Ammler>openttd: /home/marcel/bin/ottd/trunk/src/gamelog.cpp:505: void GamelogGRFCompatible(const GRFIdentifier*): Assertion `_gamelog_action_type == GLAT_LOAD' failed.
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13:29<+glx>that's SmatZ stuff
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13:30*TiberiusTeng pushing my friend to draw a Taiwan Set
13:32<TiberiusTeng>has anyone thought of writing a high-level language/compiler for the NFO thing? :p
13:32*Belugas looks at the implicity of the actions 7/9/d variables implicitely chaining and wonders if it's what Dalestan is talking about, or even remotely related
13:32<TiberiusTeng>counting every command length by hand is a little crazy IMO ...
13:33<DaleStan>TiberiusTeng: That's why I made NFORenum. Because I got very exceedingly tired of doing exactly that.
13:33<+glx>Ammler: and I think it's a bug
13:33<@Belugas>TiberiusTeng, that is what nforenum is for...
13:34<Ammler>http://img7.myimg.de/ecsaddon50f19.png
13:34<DaleStan>Also, I then made GRFCodec encode properly regardless of the specified length. (Complain, yes, but still encode properly.)
13:34<TiberiusTeng>yeah, it looks great, but it still reads/writes a pretty low level language
13:34<@Belugas>Ammler, 404
13:34<+glx>same here
13:35<Ammler>hmm
13:36<DaleStan><TiberiusTeng> has anyone thought of writing a high-level language/compiler for the NFO thing? <-- Yes, anyone has. In fact, just about everyone has. It just always turns out to be way too much work.
13:36<TiberiusTeng>:p
13:37<+glx>once you understand the nfo struct, it's easy to code
13:39<TiberiusTeng>what's the strange thing like \7GG mean? in 23 * 9 07 88 04 \7GG 44 4D 04 04 01 (from planeset)
13:39<+glx>it's explained in the wiki :)
13:40<+glx>09,...\7GG,...GRF ID is or will be active (variable 88 only)
13:40<TiberiusTeng>ah, escaping sequence, found it
13:40<+glx>and it's easier to remember these codes than the value they represent
13:41<Ammler>other source: http://picasaweb.google.com/mgmuer/UntitledAlbum :-)
13:42<@Belugas>mmh... big noise oustide the office... F1 circus has started, so it seems
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13:58<TiberiusTeng>I have a question about 32bpp PNG sprites
13:58<TiberiusTeng>looks like it got a base sprite (RGBA), and a mask (only M)
13:59<TiberiusTeng>and the mask can/should be treated with good-old GRF palettes?
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14:00<+glx>TiberiusTeng: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/SpriteLoader
14:00<TiberiusTeng>ahh, thanks. another stupid question :'(
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14:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13395 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
14:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: Rename AIOrder::GetNumberOfORders to AIOrder::GetOrderCount
14:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: Rename AITown::GetNumHouses to AITown::GetHouseCount
14:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Note: this to be more uniform with the naming of the other Count() functions
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15:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13396 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Fix (r13375): assertion failing when changing grfs in game (compatible grfs)
15:27<+glx>Ammler: should be ok now ;)
15:27<Ammler>glx: assert or the usset?
15:28<+glx>assert
15:28<Ammler>SmatZ: fixed :-P
15:28<+glx>it happened when you 'changed' the grf in a running game I guess
15:28<Ammler>I removed the override grf
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16:13<Tom0004>boo
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16:17<Wolf01>'night
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17:45<+glx>dih: don't lie on the forum
17:45<Sacro>dih: don't like on your stomach in water
17:45<Sacro>*lie
17:46<dih>glx: ?
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17:47<+glx>the connection is active when the password box is open
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17:48<dih>glx: yes, but at that time, the server already has details to the player
17:48<dih>not?
17:48<+glx>no
17:49<dih>ops
17:49<dih>but then i should not be able to send chat, or can i
17:49<+glx>it's a "bug"
17:49<dih>nice!
17:50<@Rubidium>just one that has been there for like 4 years
17:50<dih>i updated the post on the forums
17:50<dih>yes, but there was no need to fix it ;-)
17:50<dih>there was no abuse of it
17:50<+glx>but don't give too much details
17:50<dih>glx: i gave none!
17:51<dih>Edit: i posted false info, sorry for that!
17:51<@Rubidium>he virtually removed his post
17:51<dih>i will link him to my logs, as i googled for one of the terms, the only hit i got was the same thing happening on one of my old servers
17:51<dih>http://openttd.dihedral.de/irc-logs/?ch=%23openttdFairPlay&d=2008-01-19#75962
17:52<dih>that was jan 19th 2008
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17:53<+glx>looks like the same spam
17:53<dih>yep
17:53<dih>would 2 checks not be sufficient?
17:53<dih>1. when chat is sent, does the server have a populated ci
17:54<+glx>ci is populated
17:54<dih>2. when the nick is empty, close the connection
17:54<+glx>nick is not empty
17:54<dih>then there should be a nick
17:54<dih>at least when the chat is transmitted
17:54<+glx>it just miss a status check
17:54<dih>ah
17:55<dih>easier ;-)
17:55<+glx>Rubidium: maybe we should ask coop guys to test your diff intensively
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18:35<dih>hehe
18:35*dih has a mute clients patch :-P
18:35<dih>server side :-D
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19:07<Mido>hey guys, are there any north american servers that anyone can think of? or...basically anything that would get minimal lag from canada.
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20:06<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r13397 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: Do not crash when resolving vehicle sprite groups with zero sprites.
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22:53<Sacro>ben_goodger: are you a mod for openttd graphics?
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23:16<Dr_Link>I have the PocketPC version of OpenTTD working, but I need to get scrolling working for the north and south portions of the screen for the edge scrolling plugin. I assume that's in openttd.cfg, but where is openttd.cfg? How do I change this?
23:17<+glx>we don't make this version
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23:19<Dr_Link>... it appears to be a simple touchscreen port of OpenTTD.
23:19<Dr_Link>how would I do this on the desktop version?
23:19<Dr_Link>right clicking is not an option, obviously.
23:19<bpZero>ah, what is?
23:19<Dr_Link>the pocketpc version
23:19<Dr_Link>or, the palm pilot version for those who prefer those.
23:20<bpZero>where is this?
23:20<bpZero>http://www.esoftinteractive.com/openttd.html ?
23:21<@Belugas>from what i've heard, it's not a 'simple' port...
23:21<Dr_Link>bpZero, yes, that's where I got it from.
23:21<Dr_Link>Belugas, what do you mean?
23:22<@Belugas>to answer your question, the openttd.cfg file should be on the same directory as the program itself, or on the My Document fodler, on a Windows installation
23:22<@Belugas>a simple port means there is not mocu required to do to port it
23:22<Dr_Link>ah.
23:22<@Belugas>in this case, there has been (from memory) quite a few changes
23:22<Dr_Link>well, I suspected some modification under the thood.
23:22<@Belugas>therfor...
23:22<Dr_Link>*hood
23:22<Dr_Link>in the backend
23:22<@Belugas>indeed
23:22<Dr_Link>etc.
23:23<Dr_Link>Well, Windows Mobile 6 by default doesn't show the extensions, but I see a file labeled "openttd" with no icon, just the default. I suspect this file. Ack, now I need to bluetooth into my device and change this around.
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23:24<+glx>this setting is available in GUI I think
23:24<bpZero>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr2suOBGuS0&feature=related
23:24<Dr_Link>not when your resolution is 320 by 240 and you can't see the whole window
23:24<Dr_Link>that's one major flaw.
23:25<+glx>yes that's a problem because the game is designed for 640*480
23:26<+glx>though many windows have reworked to make them usable on lower res, but patches settings is not one of them
23:26<Dr_Link>yeah.
23:26<Dr_Link>ah well, time to bluetooth.
23:26<Dr_Link>not a problem, I like bluetooth, it's very fun to use for a nerd like me
23:27<+glx>and I need some sleep :)
23:27<+glx>good night
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23:28<Pikka>!logs
23:28<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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23:48<Dr_Link>So, what in openttd.cfg would I change to allow verticle scrolling?
23:56<Dr_Link>vertical, excuse me
---Logclosed Sat Jun 07 00:00:23 2008