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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-07

---Logopened Sat Jun 07 00:00:23 2008
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01:51<Touqen>None soap, RADIO!
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03:02<TiberiusTeng>I find it very challenging to record palette-animated sprites for redraw in OpenGL blitter :p
03:02*TiberiusTeng keep thinking
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04:39*dih has a server side patch to mute clients :-D
04:40<dih>just needs a little refining
04:40<dih>so i can specify if all, private, team, or public are muted :-P
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04:46<Ammler>Pikka: did you remove a grf on a running game?
04:46<Pikka>nope Ammler
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05:10<Kiloman>I got that same error a bunch on my Mac
05:10<Kiloman>seemed to go away if I turned off all the news
05:11<Kiloman>I also occasionally saw news items pop up with nothing in them except a little label that said Undefined or something like that
05:15<Kiloman>It would happen within a minute or two of playing, I'd be glad to grab a dump or something if I knew how
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05:22<Pikka>yeah, I saw one of those too Kiloman... a report with text in it
05:23<Ailure>I seen the string "Shops and offices" coming up on newspaper if you make subsidaries really high
05:23<Ailure>It's kind of amusing and noncensical, and I have a savegame where that still happens
05:24<Ailure>wasn't a serious game
05:26<Ailure>If you manually set the subsider multiplier to a really high value (1000x)
05:26<Ailure>the string "Shops and offices" appears with a small font in the newspaper.
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05:27<Ailure>instead of subsidary related announcments
05:29<dih>grep the lang files
05:29<dih>find the string
05:29<dih>grep the source for that sting
05:29<dih>then you know what changes it
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05:39<Alberth>it may also be that an incorrect offset relative to some base-string is used, and "shops and offices" just happens to be at that offset
05:40<Kiloman>yeah I would be on an overflow somewhere
05:41<Ailure>Either way, it dosen't come up in normal gameplay
05:41<Kiloman>what's it take to get a dump file on crashes?
05:42<Prof_Frink>Alberth: No, it's the new way of counting. "double, treble, quadruple, shops and offices"
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05:44<Alberth>Kiloman: ./configure --enable-debug ; make ; cd bin ; ./openttd ; <make it crash>
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05:45<Alberth>oh, and you need to set ulimit (ulimit -c). Type 'ulimit -a' to show all settings
05:46<Kiloman>are the nightlies built with debugging enabled or would I have to build my own?
05:47<Kiloman>also, I saw crash.txt mentioned in a few places, what is the deal with that?
05:47<Kiloman>obviously something separate from the core file
05:47<Alberth>no idea, try it (set ulimit -c unlimited, and see what happens when it crashes)
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05:48<Alberth>don't know about crash.txt, where can I find one?
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05:51<Kiloman>maybe it's not relevant any more
05:52<Kiloman>or maybe it's a windows thing, I dunno
05:54<Alberth>Looks like a windows thingie, google also seems to point in that direction
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06:37<planetmaker>is there a way to add a patch setting and not break savegame compatibility?
06:38<planetmaker> <-- If it matters: that's what I'd like to change. Restricting terraform to 1 tile
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06:43<Wolf01>planetmaker, yes, why not? if you don't save anything *new* on the map it should be ok, like copy&paste
06:44<planetmaker>the problem I have is adding it to the usual settings struct changes the savgame compatibility
06:45<planetmaker>it is not a client only patch, therefor needs network com
06:45<Kiloman> just out of curiosity, why would you want to do that? slow people down in multiplayer?
06:45<planetmaker>Kiloman: yes. avoid exessive tf, e.g. easy flattening to sealevel
06:45<planetmaker>a scenario usually comes with a certain landscape for a reason
06:46<planetmaker>it's not a huge slowdown though, IMO. Consider it a difficulty setting :)
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07:06<Wolf01>ehm... why not simply disable the level land button in mp?
07:07<planetmaker>Wolf01: I don't want to completely disable terraform
07:07<Wolf01>no, level land only!
07:07<Wolf01>raise and lower should work
07:07<planetmaker>Otherwise it gets really tricky to build tunnels
07:07<Wolf01>but 1 tile
07:07<planetmaker>Hm... might be an option.
07:08<Wolf01>the only problem: roujin patch which allow to drag the raise and lower land tools
07:08<planetmaker>but the lower or rise land tool allow cascading, if you e.g. increase the height of a mountain the whole side of the mountain
07:08<planetmaker>is increased
07:09<planetmaker>The point is: I like Roujins extensions, but they can be dangerous on multiplayer servers
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07:10<Wolf01>all dragging tools, station too, should be disallowed on mp, you can build stations with the h/w size buttons
07:11<Repentinus>Is there any optional functions than these listed on to give extra information when registrering your AI?
07:11<planetmaker>even so: disabling that should be a patch setting, too :)
07:11<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: *All* dragging tools? Even straight rails?
07:11<planetmaker>It's indeed no problem to make the patch I mentioned above without any introduction of settings.
07:12<SpComb>and require the user to count to ten after building each piece of track
07:12<planetmaker>but I like it to be a bit user friendly and give an admin possibility to change it ingame via rcon
07:12<Prof_Frink>SpComb: Or, with the -xkcd branch, answer a maths question
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07:44<Wolf01>Prof_Frink, yeah, back to lay down diagonal tracks with 12312312 clicks :P
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07:52<nick>how can i force the server to restart with a scenario at the end of time
07:52<nick>im using -g switch but it restarts with a random map
07:53<nick>also, how can i modifty the tcl autopilot script to work, as now the config file is in a seperate dir to openttd
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07:58<Repentinus>Is there any good example of AI?
07:58<Repentinus>For understanding basics
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08:58<TiberiusTeng>the stupidest thing I did today
08:58<TiberiusTeng>linear-interpolating color indexes ...
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09:28<nick>whats the best value to have autosave set at ?
09:29<nick>for a dedicated server
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09:37<Sacro>nick: yes is a good option
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09:56<SprudL>I have a complaint... ottd is addictive :)
09:59<ooo4tom>why is this a complaint ?
09:59<ooo4tom>i /nick Tom0004
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10:00<+glx>TiberiusTeng: 404
10:00<TiberiusTeng> oops, this one.
10:00<+glx>pink is gone
10:01<TiberiusTeng>yep, palette remap is done.
10:01<TiberiusTeng>and palette animation is partly done ... I just don't have a good way to redraw only those animated sprites.
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10:04<@peter1138>does it include the nasty jpeg artefacts? :p
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10:05<+glx>indeed png would be more accurate
10:09<TiberiusTeng>wait a sec.
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10:10<TiberiusTeng>this->ResetPalette(); MarkWholeScreenDirty(); DrawDirtyBlocks();
10:10<Proof>I'm new to TTD, how long can you play it for? over 2000?
10:11<TiberiusTeng>I know it's not healthy, but even though gfx layer didn't call DrawSprite()s for me
10:11<+glx>there's no limit Proof
10:12<TiberiusTeng>and since I don't have a way to know how viewports moved, I can't track sprites for redraw either. that makes me headache ...
10:12<TiberiusTeng>but at least it's really playable (and fast) now ;)
10:14<Ailure>B[15:56] <SprudL> I have a complaint... ottd is addictive :)
10:14<Ailure>[15:59] <ooo4tom> why is this a complaint ?
10:14<Ailure>Sounds like we need to have openTTD anomymous
10:15<nick>whats a good autosave setting for a dedicated multiplayer ?
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10:18<nick>does anyone know much about autopilot and could guide me ?
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10:36<dih>trallalla & tüdeldü
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11:31<nick>can anyone give me some help or advice with my dedicated server ?
11:34<Noldo>it's somewhat hard to know without knowing the problem
11:35<nick>i just want to know whats the best to set sync and autosave to ?
11:35<nick>or if there is an example of a good config file for a dedicated server
11:37<planetmaker>nick: the config is up to your taste.
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12:03<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13398 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AISign::GetOwner (on request by Finaldeath)
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12:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13399 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_tile.cpp ai_tile.hpp ai_tile.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AITile::IsWithinTownInfluence (on request by Finaldeath)
12:13<fjb>What is the status of YAPP? I'm getting tired of patching...
12:15<+glx>still WIP AFAIK
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12:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: miham * r13400 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
12:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-06-07 18:14:28
12:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: korean - 8 fixed, 16 changed by leejaeuk5 (24)
12:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: romanian - 5 fixed, 185 changed by CrystyB (190)
12:15<CIA-3>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changed by Smoky555 (1)
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12:16<fjb>Hm, I can't play without it anymore.
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12:24<Proof>what do you suggest, should I start with a scenario, if yes, wich? Or a normal game. I'm still a newbie
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12:27<dih>Proof: how do you usually start games?
12:28<dih>afaik there is a button: new game
12:28<dih>read the wiki (
12:28<dih>esp. the gamer manual
12:28<dih>there is no 'how do i start a game'
12:29<dih>if you have questions about specific settings, ask :-P
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12:34<Proof>I was just thinking what's best for beginners?
12:34<Proof>suppose I'll jsut start a new game
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12:53<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
12:53<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 37 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Prof_Frink Prof_Frink Prof_Frink
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14:08<dih>SmatZ: CongratZ
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15:41<jorisslob>Is there a special channel for then NoAI build?
15:42<planetmaker>or not that I know
15:42<Ammler>jorisslob: it is: .noai
15:43<Ammler>but I dunno, if it is public
15:43<Mchl>iti s
15:43<Mchl>it is
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16:20<gilbo>is this openttd?
16:21<Sacro>#openttd :)
16:21<planetmaker>what do you think, gilbo, #openttd stands for?
16:21<gilbo>lol, I am new to mIRC
16:21<gilbo>I just though I might be in limbo or something
16:21<Sacro>hey, planetmaker, what's with the extra commas?
16:22<planetmaker>hu? That's how I learnt it at school :)
16:22<planetmaker>maybe it's wrong in English, though
16:22<gilbo>can't believe there are so many ttd fans
16:23<TiberiusTeng>silverx xchat is better under windows IMHO
16:23<TiberiusTeng>and yeah, world wide OTTD ! XD
16:23*TiberiusTeng still hacking OpenGL ... now on FreeType
16:25<hylje>TiberiusTeng: out of curiosity, are you painting ottd on a gl surface or actually doing stuff on a fine-grained way?
16:25<hylje>in a fine-grained way*
16:25<TiberiusTeng>it can't be fine-grained ;)
16:25<TiberiusTeng>provided that ottd's upper structure not changed
16:25<hylje>that distinction could be made
16:25<TiberiusTeng>painting ottd on a gl surface, yes ...
16:26<TiberiusTeng>all sprites as individual textures, basically a Blitter_GL::Draw() call draws a billboard with sprite texture on it
16:26<TiberiusTeng>and using fragment shaders to do palette lookup, palette animation, alpha blending ...
16:27<hylje>oooh, alpha blending!
16:27<TiberiusTeng>so the most heavy part of blitting work has moved to video card, IMO ...
16:28<TiberiusTeng>but provided that blitter won't know how sprite moves, how window moves etc, I can't track/optimize those redraw actions.
16:29<TiberiusTeng>just blindly do what gfx.cpp tells me to do :p
16:30<TiberiusTeng>but I think it really need some texture atlas work, since 10000s textures looks scary on gDEBugger ;)
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16:37<TiberiusTeng>when you zoom all the way out and right-dragging, you'll feel a obvious delay
16:37<TiberiusTeng>even under 8bpp-optimized blitter
16:37<TiberiusTeng>unfortunately, it's not blitter's fault ... OpenGL do the same
16:38<TiberiusTeng>(the good news is OpenGL blitter will do 32bpp with animation as fast as 8bpp-optimized ;)
16:42<TiberiusTeng>start tracing code from ViewportDrawChk() and look what it do to the huge map, calling draw_tile_proc()'s, Z-sorting all vehicles/buildings ...
16:43<TiberiusTeng>OpenGL blitter can't/won't cure these things, as long as we need other blitters
16:45<frosch123>I guess, when zoomed out, spritesorting is a big task (O(n^2)), though you can hardly see what it sorts.
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16:45<Sacro>I can't get gilbo to download the list of servers from the masterserver, any ideas on how to debug?
16:45<Sacro>using 0.6.1, installer , XP
16:46<gilbo>I am on a lan, so getting internet access from another computer
16:46<gilbo>but never had any problems with other games
16:46<gilbo>tried deactivating my firewall with no effect
16:47<planetmaker>there shouldn't be need for that normally.
16:47<TiberiusTeng>I haven't dig into spritesorting part so I don't have a definitive answer ...
16:47<TiberiusTeng>and my profiling tools isn't working correctly :<
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16:48<frosch123>TiberiusTeng: Just comment it out, it should not matter anyway when zoomed out :p
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16:48<TiberiusTeng>that isn't a healthy solution! :p
16:48<TiberiusTeng>and we still need it to sort sprites while closeup
16:49<TiberiusTeng>in a sense, I'm making OTTD gfx subsystem using OpenGL as a dumb (but damn fast) bit-blitter
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16:51<nick>when a dedicated server gets to the end date and its starts a new game, will it restart the scenario thats being played if the -g switch is used to run the server
16:52<TiberiusTeng>using the graphics card as a hardware blitter, via OpenGL, to be precise
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16:53<frosch123>using nvidia extensions I guess
16:53<TiberiusTeng>actually no
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16:56<TiberiusTeng>let's see ... I used ARB_texture_non_power_of_two (lazy), ARB_fragment_program, ARB_multitexture
16:56<@peter1138>simple texture blitting doesn't need nvidia extensions :)
16:56<nick>can anyone answer my quesiton?
16:56<nick> when a dedicated server gets to the end date and its starts a new game, will it restart the scenario thats being played if the -g switch is used to run the server
16:57<frosch123>TiberiusTeng: Aren't the usual interger texture nvidia extensions?
16:58<TiberiusTeng>I think it became an ARB extension ;)
16:58<TiberiusTeng>and it's easy solvable, I said I'm just being lazy
16:59<TiberiusTeng>after I fixed the texture size thing, it'll run on many old cards (and my notebook, Intel 855GME)
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17:00<TiberiusTeng>but doing color-remapping and palette animation will become very difficult (eh, just forget it)
17:01<frosch123>palette animation is not important, but company colors are used by a lot :)
17:02<gilbo>anybody got any suggestions, I can't get multiplayer to work
17:03<nick>whats wrong
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17:03<gilbo>when I click on find server nothing comes up on the list
17:03<TiberiusTeng>yeah ... so you need a Radeon 9550 / Geforce 6100 / Intel 915G to 'enjoy' my opengl blitter, at least for now ;)
17:04<gilbo>its not my firewall cause I disabled that and restarted the game
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17:04<planetmaker>gilbo: have you selected internet?
17:04<TiberiusTeng>texture size thing is easy, but rebuilding the texture with new palettes off card is very slow
17:05<planetmaker>and you clicked the button "search servers"?
17:05<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
17:05<planetmaker>^^you need those ports forwarded
17:05<gilbo>'find servers'
17:06<planetmaker>find servers. yes (I don't use English :) )
17:06<gilbo>do I need to go do something to the other computer in my house that hosts the internet?
17:06<Sacro>planetmaker: no you don't
17:06<planetmaker>probably enable port forwarding there of the aforementioned ports
17:06<Sacro>that won't help
17:06<Sacro>unless he's running a server
17:06<Sacro>which he isn't
17:07<planetmaker>hm. ok.
17:08<gilbo>do you think the computer hosting the internet could be blocking these ports?
17:08<gilbo>causing this computer not to get send the information?
17:09<planetmaker>dunno. never had that problem. Improbable, I'd say
17:09<planetmaker>err. unlikely
17:11<gilbo>should I try a different version of openttd?
17:11<gilbo>what version are you all using?
17:12<Sacro>i have lots of versions
17:13<planetmaker>gilbo: I'm playing on #openttdcoop and use those versions, currently the nightly r13374.
17:13<planetmaker>but I've others as well, currently hacking r13400
17:13<gilbo>I'm trying the latest version from
17:14<gilbo>I'll maybe try reinstalling with 6.0
17:14<planetmaker>that won't be the problem IMO.
17:14<gilbo>maybe a restart?
17:17<gilbo>could this be my solution?
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17:18<Sacro>gilbo: i doubt it
17:20<gilbo>me gonna do a reset, try once more and then give up
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17:20<gilbo>I might try tomorrow on the other computer and see if it makes any difference
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17:25*TiberiusTeng use depth buffer as color-index buffer, thanks michi_cc ;)
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17:39<gilbo>anybody know a working host I can try joining?
17:41<+glx>there are many on
17:42<gilbo>tried some of them but looks like they aren't working for me
17:42<gilbo>they are all comign up 'server offline'
17:44<+glx>then something is blocking in the way
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17:44<+glx>querying servers is done via UDP
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17:50<gilbo>I have found the problem!!
17:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13401 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: note that Money in AIs is always represented in Pounds (requested by Finaldeath)
17:50<gilbo>if I unload internet shield on both computers, it works
17:50<gilbo>looks like the internet shield is causing the problem
17:51<gilbo>how do I configure it now
17:53<gilbo>anybody had experience with the settings of f-secure for openttd?
17:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13402 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_marine.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: note that WaterDepots are 1x2 in size (which might suprise people)
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18:09<nick>when a game restarts, do it restart with the scenario loaded or a random map
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18:14<nick>sacro: when a multiplayer game restarts, do it restart with the scenario loaded or a random map
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18:23<Sacro>nick: depends on the server settings
18:25<nick>how do i set it to restart and load a scenario when it reaches the end date ?
18:27<Sacro>i dunno :\
18:27<Sacro>i don't run a server
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18:28<gilbo>how do you communicate with the players in opentd multiplayer?
18:30<Sacro>press t to talk
18:30<Sacro>or use skype
18:30<Sacro>or shout loudly out the window
18:30<Sacro>or write them a letter
18:30<nick>racing pigeon
18:31<gilbo>I am now in, wooo
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18:31<gilbo>damn internet firewall
18:38<+glx>just press enter
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18:57<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13403 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: wrapper to read the game settings directly without *any* promises on the results being stable in the future when OpenTTD changes the semantics.
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19:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13404 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: AITile::IsBuildable no longer returns 'true' on road, but only on a halve piece of road (as that is auto-removed). This should make this function return less 'true', and more sane results :)
19:06<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13405 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix (r13403): forgot project files
19:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13406 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
19:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: renamed CompanyIndex to CompanyID and AICompany::ResolveCompanyIndex() to AICompany::ResolveCompanyID(), to be more consistant with the rest of the API
19:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: INVALID_COMPANY now has value -1, to be more consistant with the rest of the API
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19:30<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13407 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AICompany::IsMine() to ease up owner-checks (no, not the ones to cash in money)
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 08 00:00:58 2008