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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-09

---Logopened Mon Jun 09 00:00:33 2008
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03:39<iAN_>good morning every single one
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04:32<dih>why on earth are people not capable of accepting the lead of the developers
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04:33<blathijs>dih: Referencing anything in particular?
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04:37<dih>i do not understand why players cannot accept the lead!
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04:40<blathijs>dih: But we wants so bad! :-p
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04:45<@peter1138>i'm not totally against the concept if it can be done properly
04:46<dih>peter1138: my point being, that users should follow the lead the developers lay down for the project!
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04:54<TiberiusTeng>or fork & branch & maintain & catching up ... the beauty of free software :p
04:54<TiberiusTeng>but merely version bumping those patches made me crazy
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04:56<planetmaker>^hehe :)
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04:59<TiberiusTeng>and I wish someday I'll clean OpenGL blitter enough to be considered merging into trunk ;-p
05:01<planetmaker>to me that sounds like a looooong path ahead of you
05:02<planetmaker>have strength and endurance :)
05:02<blathijs>TiberiusTeng: You should probably start by trying to isolate different parts of it
05:02<dih>then do it, but dont start whining around when it's not included!
05:02<@peter1138>one big problem with mine is the direct hooks in the sdl video driver
05:02<@peter1138>and the bugs :D
05:02<TiberiusTeng>blathijs, I'm planning to do that
05:02<blathijs>TiberiusTeng: eg, cleanups and small api changes that can be included independently
05:02<@peter1138>(world generation throws it)
05:02<TiberiusTeng>mine even takes small screenshot correctly (?)
05:03<TiberiusTeng>the problem is, OpenGL has to be initialized together with windowing system
05:03<TiberiusTeng>so I think I'll make win32gl driver + opengl blitter
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05:04<blathijs>TiberiusTeng: Is that different from other blitters? I guess that other blitters need to do some SDL setup as well?
05:05<blathijs>Or can they just do that after the sdl driver has set up other stuff?
05:05<TiberiusTeng>and I need some hooks from scriptcache, e.g. calling blitter to release encoded sprite, not freeing them itself
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05:05<TiberiusTeng>other (current) blitters just need a plain bitmap framebuffer, nothing more
05:06<TiberiusTeng>so I think they don't need special help from drivers, and can be used with any (current) driver
05:09<TiberiusTeng>on the other hand, if there's drivers for other platforms that do OpenGL initialization, then I think opengl blitter will happily work with them ...
05:10<TiberiusTeng>but honestly I haven't dig into the SDL + OpenGL threading problem that peter1138 encountered
05:11<blathijs>not dug into meaning you haven't encountered it, or haven't tried to solve it yet? :-)
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05:16<TiberiusTeng>I didn't encountered it ...
05:17<TiberiusTeng>because I didn't use SDL as display backend
05:17<TiberiusTeng>I'm modifying win32 driver, adding wgl calls to create OpenGL environment
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06:30<@Rubidium>trom te pom
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06:34<@peter1138>TiberiusTeng: it was nothing to do with sdl
06:36<TiberiusTeng>can you describe it in more detail? perhaps I'll stumble by it later ...
06:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Mi Lei Long Di Do Di Delü
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06:42<dih>lol @ Eddi
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06:49<Pikka>Belugas Belugas Belugas
06:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think he is awake yet
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06:50<Pikka>no.. but hopefully he'll notice when he is
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06:52<dih>Pikka: you little nagger :-P
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07:03<ln>was wird mit Lost passieren? imdb kennt nicht mehrere Episoden für Season 4.
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07:07<@Rubidium>writers strike...
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause2>they had to cut down the season from 16 to 14 episodes, but instead the two next seasons will be 17 instead of 16 episodes
07:10<ln>but the previous ones were like ~22..24 episodes?
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07:11<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, they agreed on a fixed number of episodes to plan a definite end
07:11<Eddi|zuHause2>and that agreement was 3 seasons à 16 episodes
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07:15<ln>hmm, so will there be what, 5 or 6 seasons total?
07:16<@Rubidium>rather at least that many
07:16<@Rubidium>they might make a new agreement when the old one has finished for more seasons
07:17<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think they will extend it
07:18-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No Lost talk
07:19*Rubidium wonders what happens when somebody who's Lost in the code comes in and asks questions...
07:20<@peter1138>they'd be lost in the code, not Lost in the code
07:20<@Rubidium>Lost keys are an issue I've had to deal with a long time ago... quite annoying
07:21-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No TV progra
07:21<@Rubidium>hmm, must be too bored (never bored enough to ponder watching Lost though)
07:21-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No TV talk
07:21-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No TV talk
07:21<@peter1138>hm, lagged
07:22<ln>is TGV ok if TV is not?
07:23<Eddi|zuHause2>what TV? i thought this was broadcast over tha intartubes!
07:23-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No idiots
07:24<Eddi|zuHause2>no /topic talk! :p
07:24<ln>ur right
07:25<iAN_>aaaah!! that are subdomains
07:26<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah... * --> insert [item from list] for *
07:26<ln>peter1138: do you think always writing "ur" is the perfect solution for the confusion between "your" and "you're"?
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07:26-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*lanurm@*] by peter1138
07:26-!-ln was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [wtf?]
07:27-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*lanurm@*] by peter1138
07:27<Eddi|zuHause2>First Blood!
07:27<iAN_>which confusion?
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07:28<iAN_>In: Do you think always writing peapples is the perfect solution for the confusion between pears and apples?
07:28<ln>iAN_: please switch to another font.
07:28<Eddi|zuHause2>for highlighting it might be helpful to spell the name correctly
07:29<iAN_>I don't use any fonts
07:29<iAN_>I use regular IRC without any fonts
07:29<Eddi|zuHause2>whatever you use, it's the wrong one ;)
07:29<ln>iAN_: using some braille screen for blind people?
07:29<iAN_>bold italic underline is all I can use
07:30<Eddi|zuHause2>but you can't tell the difference between I and l
07:32<Ammler>has there something changed with server_advertise? (r13374)
07:33<iAN_>so, you meant you are ln not IN
07:45<Eddi|zuHause2>miniln ;)
07:52<Ammler>Now, I don't wonder anymore, why there are no newer nightly servers in the serverlist. ;-)
07:52<Gekz>I want to play ottd on a braille monitor
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07:57<iAN_>Ammler: why?
07:57<Ammler>because it doesn't work since some revs.
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07:58<iAN_>I have the feeling that the new grf parts don't display the correct used grfs too
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08:18<@Rubidium>booh.. slashdot's not working
08:18<@Rubidium>the world has ended...
08:19<@Rubidium>Ammler: advertising 'just' works ->
08:20<SpComb>someone broke slashdot :o
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08:27<Ammler>Rubidium: also with last nightly?
08:28<SmatZ>Ammler: it was fixed in r13433
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08:29<SmatZ>hmm commits are not displayed here
08:29<Ammler>sometimes CIA needs a day for it :-)
08:30<SmatZ>today's nightly should work
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08:55<Pikka>but still no belugas! :P
08:56<@peter1138>none at all
08:57<Pikka>it is a shame
08:57<Pikka>I wanted him to code another var for me
08:58<Pikka>a long date equivalent of B0 Date when industry was built in days since 1920
08:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13431 /branches/noai/src/ (console_cmds.cpp settings.cpp):
08:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: AIs in multiplayer is no longer an experimental thing
08:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: start_ai now reports nicer errors when it fails
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08:58<+glx>Pikka: wait a little :)
08:58<+glx>he should arrive soon
08:59*Pikka waits
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09:14<@Belugas>and indeed, here i am!
09:15<@Belugas>and i've spoken to the man already
09:15<@Belugas>the Pikka one
09:15<@Belugas>of course
09:15<@peter1138>pikka's a man?
09:15<@peter1138>i thought he was a coding drawing machine
09:16<Pikka>with a terrible cold
09:16<@Belugas>impressions can be deceiving :)
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09:27*ben_goodger gives pikka some ravioli
09:27<Pikka>and goodnight
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09:27<thejanitor>Hey my buildottd doesnt seem to be worker
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09:28<thejanitor>"index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection. "
09:29<thejanitor>and it just sits there with the bar scrolling
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>there should be an appropriate thread on the forums for bottd problems
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10:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13432 /branches/noai/src/players.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r13290: in case of a network-client, AI_StartNewAI() should never be called
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10:42<Amis>hi all
10:42<iAN_>Hi Amis
10:42<Amis>i have a quick question
10:42<Amis>what does Ctrl+G do?
10:43<@peter1138>giant screenshot
10:43<iAN_>it enables the grid in PaintShopPro V7.2
10:43<Amis>thats why my game stopped working and cpu was on 100%
10:43<Amis>than, how do i turn off grid?
10:44<Amis>the grid... the lines between the squares
10:44<@Belugas>you can't :)
10:44<Amis>i could turn it off before (long time ago)
10:44<@Belugas>the ground sprites are drawn with it
10:44<iAN_>I think I have "no grid" in my games too
10:44<@Belugas>you NEVER could do that before
10:44<Amis>i COULD
10:45<Amis>maybe that wasnt openttd
10:45<@Belugas>unless you had ground sprites withouth the lines
10:45<iAN_>Belugas: I don't see a "grid" in my games (?!)
10:45<@Belugas>that is the only way
10:45<Sacro>it's a newgrf
10:45<iAN_>ah! see
10:45*Belugas nodes at Sacro
10:45<Amis>to where it saved that "giant screenshot"?
10:45<+glx>put it in the [newgrf-static] section to use it online
10:46<+glx>Amis: same as other screenshots
10:46<+glx>where is openttd.cfg
10:46<Amis>than it didnt do any?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause2>or My Games\Openttd
10:46<+glx>not My Games ;)
10:46<+glx>My Docs
10:46<Eddi|zuHause2>whatever :p
10:47<Amis>holy lol
10:47<@peter1138>well it is giant
10:47<+glx>you have a big amount of ram or it's a small map
10:47<Amis>now i really now why cpu was on 100%
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10:48<Amis>any idea on with what i can open tha screenshot? :D
10:48<Amis>i mean
10:48<Amis>because of its size
10:48<Amis>not extension
10:48<+glx>good luck :)
10:49<Ammler>Amis: is it a PNG?
10:49<+glx>you may need to use an image splitter first
10:49<Eddi|zuHause2>most viewing programs tend to try to unpack the whole picture in memory
10:49<iAN_>whatfor did you make the screenshot?
10:49<Amis>does x64 version exist?
10:50<Amis>iAN_: for nothing, but i was curios what can handle this file size :)
10:50<iAN_>PaintShopPro can
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause2>an unpacked image of a 2048x2048 map is likely bigger than the RAM of most PCs
10:52<iAN_>thats why swap-space is for
10:52<Amis>hmmm photoshop could open it :)
10:52<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13435 /branches/noai/src/players.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r13432: still the statements were wrong ... 3rd time is the charm :)
10:52<blathijs>I think gimp handles large images as well
10:53<Eddi|zuHause2>iAN_: then there is still the address space barrier ;)
10:54<Eddi|zuHause2>CIA-3 is not very reliable today, it appears
10:54<iAN_>is there a difference between "build on slopes" and "build on steep slopes" ?
10:55<planetmaker>what's a steep slope?
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10:56<SmatZ>steep slopes are really steep
10:56<SmatZ>height difference between lowest and highest point is 2
10:57<SmatZ>foundation on it can't be flattening
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10:58<SmatZ>planetmaker:;a=blob_plain;f=docs/tileh.png;hb=HEAD tiles 23,27,29,30
11:00<planetmaker>ah, right. diagonal :)
11:00<iAN_>hrmm.. didn't that always work? to built on those slopes?
11:01<planetmaker>didn't think of those :) Thx.
11:01<SmatZ>in 0.4.8, you couldn't build on steep slopes
11:02<iAN_>I switched from ttdpatch to openttd with 0.6.*
11:03<planetmaker>TTDP != OTTD...
11:03-!-Amis [] has left #openttd []
11:04<SmatZ>!seen Amis
11:04<SmatZ>@seen Amis
11:04<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Amis was last seen in #openttd 11 minutes and 24 seconds ago: <Amis> hmmm photoshop could open it :)
11:04<iAN_>yes. _I_ know. Thats why I asked. I still try to figure out the "differences"
11:04<Eddi|zuHause2>enginepool :p
11:04<SmatZ>iAN_: may help you
11:06<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2, isn't that one a bug?
11:06<iAN_>ah. junction bridge heads is missing :-/
11:07<@Belugas>funny... been called the ultimate patch, once...
11:07<@Belugas>engine pool, that is...
11:08<iAN_>do I have to set train orders to "non stop" on a waypoint? or is that "non stop" irrelevant
11:08<SmatZ>engine pool is very fine
11:08<SmatZ>iAN_: it is irrelevant
11:08<@peter1138>is it even possible?
11:08<SmatZ>depends on your patch settings...
11:09<SmatZ>if "TTDPatch compatible non-stop" is set
11:09<SmatZ>then it doesn't matter
11:09<SmatZ>if not, then non-stop is non-stop at intermediate stations
11:09<SmatZ>peter1138: I think so
11:09<@peter1138>oh, of course
11:09<SmatZ>with old order system ;)
11:11<iAN_>where can I read more about "enginepool"?
11:12<@peter1138>canset thread :D
11:13<iAN_>search on "enginepool" shows Showing below 0 results starting with #1.
11:13<SmatZ>iAN_: search at tt-forums
11:13<frosch123>iAN_: Too make it short: If you are a TTD player it is the best feature ever. If you are a newgrf artist, it is the worst bug ever :)
11:18<Sacro>heh, someone used i'd've on the forums
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11:22<@peter1138>i'd've thought that's fairly common
11:23<Sacro>i'd'ven't thought it possible to abuse apostraphes like that
11:24<@peter1138>that's just silly
11:24<SmatZ>yours''d ?
11:24<@peter1138>i'd've is at least in common usage
11:25<Sacro>yes and so is n't
11:25<Sacro>haven't :P
11:25<iAN_>I read a lot about "engine pool" and threads about it, but to be honest, I didn't understand much+
11:26<@peter1138>"n't" isn't, on its own
11:26<@peter1138>iAN_: i wouldn't worry, it's not particularly interesting
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11:27<@Belugas>iAN_, simple. BEFORE, there was a limited number of grf engines (read types of) that could be add/replaced to the game. The engine pool multiplied that minimum by a lot.
11:27*TiberiusTeng always wondered how much disk space has
11:27<@peter1138>not enough
11:28<Sacro>is it on newyoda?
11:29<Sacro>/dev/hdv1 172G 94G 79G 55% /
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause2>you have too many hard drives ;)
11:35<@Belugas>all my harddrives combined are equalling his smaller one :(
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i found that any new harddrive i bought was at least twice as big as the previous one
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>my first harddrive was 80MB
11:36<Eddi|zuHause2>my newest one is 1TB
11:37<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause2: I'm doing that for the last three (320GB / 160GB / 80GB)
11:37<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause2: The other two before that were also 80GB, but I found them too loud :-)
11:37<Eddi|zuHause2>the biggest step was from 2GB to 40GB
11:38*blathijs did 800MB / 4GB / 20GB / 80GB / 80GB / 80 GB / 160GB / 320GB I think :-)
11:38<blathijs>and 80GB / 160GB for my notebook
11:38<blathijs>oh well, off for shopping
11:38<Sacro>my current pc has 500/500/500/80
11:39<Sacro>with 160 on iPod
11:39<Sacro>100 on laptop
11:39*SmatZ 120MB 500MB 3GB 20GB (1GB notebook) ... later I don't know
11:39<TiberiusTeng>damn, once I was thinking 32bit for 4GB addressing space is way too large
11:39<SmatZ>20 years ago, it was
11:40<SmatZ>with 100MB HDD and 4MB RAM
11:40<Sacro>i had 0 hard drive
11:40<Roest>damn rich kid with 4 MB RAM
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11:40<Sacro>512k chip ram
11:40<planetmaker>my first pc had a whopping 20MB HD - and I think something like 2MB of ram...
11:40<Sacro>and 512k slow ram
11:40<planetmaker>286 - those were the times :P
11:40<+glx>EDO ?
11:41<Sacro>me? no, this is before EDO :p
11:41<TiberiusTeng>386DX-33 with 4MB RAM
11:41<SmatZ>I doubt EDO for 286 ;-)
11:41<TiberiusTeng>and that was the PC I played TTO ...
11:41<planetmaker>Dunno actually. :)
11:41<@Belugas>8086, 640k, 20mb, 5 1/4 floppy, green screen
11:41<SmatZ>EDOs came with later 486's (I think)
11:41<@Belugas>woooo... that was awesome!
11:41<planetmaker>wouldn't want OTTD on that... :)
11:41<+glx>I still have a cpc6128
11:42<fjb>I'm starting to feel old now.
11:42<frosch123>Belugas: really 8086 oO, or 8088?
11:42<@Belugas>too long ago, can't remember ;)
11:43<TiberiusTeng>I just remember that 'ridge'-looking TT interface ...
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11:43<TiberiusTeng>and the lack of presignals
11:43<frosch123>I still have such a machine the cellar. Long time it was the only machine to play certain games, until I discovered dosbox ...
11:44-!-planetmaker is now known as planetmaker|away
11:45<TiberiusTeng>a Core 2 Duo didn't make OTTD much different ... at least when not compiling it
11:46<SmatZ>TTO had nicer windows
11:46<SmatZ>but I miss oneway signals there
11:46<SmatZ>and dragging
11:48<TiberiusTeng>TTDPatch & OpenTTD is just too good to be true ... (well, they're true now ;) thanks all contributors)
11:54-!-blaab [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:54<TiberiusTeng>oh, a question, how to 'display' uploaded picture attachment in the forum post? just can't find that syntax :Q
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11:55<SmatZ>TiberiusTeng: only small pictures are displayed
11:55<SmatZ>or if there is any other way, I don't know
11:56<TiberiusTeng>so there's a resolution limit? how large is it?
11:56<SmatZ>I don't know
11:57<TiberiusTeng>hmm ... that's fine, just curious ...
12:01<Ammler>TiberiusTeng: afaik, the limit is "just" a defined as constant, you can rise it wilth changing the source.
12:02<TiberiusTeng>no, I want to show some pictures in forum ;)
12:03<Ammler>oh, lol
12:05<@Belugas>Ammler, which limit were youthining of?
12:05<Ammler>resolution of ottd :-)
12:06<Ammler>someone needed once a bigger size for his double screen.
12:06<@Belugas>as far as i know, resolution is not hardocoded
12:06<@Belugas>ho... size...
12:06<@Belugas>do you have a dual screen?
12:07<+glx>there's no limit IIRC
12:07<@Belugas>indeed, there is none, now...
12:07-!-iAN_ [~UNIX@] has quit [Quit: Oops. Connection lost.]
12:07<+glx>but nobody noticed it ;)
12:09<Ammler>it was 3 months ago
12:09<TiberiusTeng>hmm ... dual screen OTTD ?
12:09<TiberiusTeng>maybe a dual window (?) OTTD then maximize it on both screens
12:11<Ammler>no idea, don't have that big size :-)
12:11<Ammler>it was a forum thread.
12:11<Roest>we knew you have a small one
12:12<dih>always the 11 year olds have to come along with such lines
12:12<dih>and dont realize they are talking to people 2x or 3x their age!
12:12*Roest yawns
12:12<@Belugas>pipi caca proot
12:12<@Belugas>agheu agheu!
12:13<Roest>who pissed in your coffee
12:13<@Belugas>blebleble - arheuu
12:14<TiberiusTeng>sometimes I miss that doublesize mode ...
12:15<@Belugas>what??? you have your tooth brush on your work station???
12:15<TiberiusTeng>oh, nevermind :p
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12:17<TiberiusTeng>I think it's easy to do a 'free-zooming' feature with OpenGL ... but there's at least two problems on my mind
12:17<TiberiusTeng>1. original pixel fonts looks sucks when zoomed
12:17<TiberiusTeng>2. it's difficult to do it entirely on driver side, without help of blitter side
12:17<@peter1138>the sprite edges look dodgy when not at exactly 1:1
12:18<Eddi|zuHause2>there are typically two problems with increased zoom: 1) the base graphics need to be available in higher resolution, 2) the vehicles "jump" several pixels on each tick
12:19<TiberiusTeng>I won't touch this feature, at least not now
12:19<TiberiusTeng>now trying to optimize palette access ...
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12:21<TiberiusTeng>string colormap's fixed, fine; GRF palettes are fixed, fine; but the rotating palette animation need some clever trick ...
12:21<TiberiusTeng>now I'm making & uploading palette on each BM_COLOUR_REMAP draw request, which is a little slow ...
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>32bpp animated must have some tricks regarding that also
12:22<TiberiusTeng>but I really don't understand, just 256 * 3 bytes of texture to graphics card, maybe it's the card's pipeline flushing that makes it slow
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12:23<Sacro>could you not use models instead of sprites?
12:24<hylje>that'd involve, say, building models
12:24<TiberiusTeng>Eddi|zuHause2, it just directly look the remap palette, without any need of translation & transfering.
12:24<hylje>it'd be mucho nice to have them exist side by side
12:24<hylje>but i'm happy with sprites
12:24<Sacro>hylje: yes, but a fair few 32bpp sprites where made in blender anyway
12:25<TiberiusTeng>they need to render to PNG before appearing in OTTD for now
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12:26<TiberiusTeng>hmm. are there regular 32bpp-sprites users here?
12:28<fjb>Apropos palette, why does OpenTTD not change over to the windws palette entirely? The grfs from the dos version of the game could be converted at startup. The game knows if the grfs from the original game are the dos or windows versions.
12:30<@peter1138>it has been considered
12:30<@peter1138>as in thought about
12:30<@peter1138>just nobody ever bothered actually doing it
12:30<frosch123>though you would also have to convert recolor sprites
12:30<TiberiusTeng>ahh! I could write palette rotating logic in shaders!!
12:31<Ammler>it would "fix" the problem for MP games.
12:31<frosch123>and figure out if there are evil grf coders, modifying recolorsprites by action6...
12:32<fjb>Hm, only the grfs from the original game would have to be modified, and they have no advanced features.
12:33<fjb>And all other grfs would have to be the windows version.
12:40<TiberiusTeng>DoPaletteAnimations have too many arithmetic magics ... ~_~
12:43<SpComb>so who's going to prove that OpenTTD's signalling system is turing-complete?
12:43<SpComb>implement a brainfuck interpreter using it
12:45<fjb>Is it?
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12:53<@peter1138>fjb: it's not a language, so...
12:55<SpComb>bit of a bad term
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12:58<Noldo>SpComb: costruct this:
13:03<@Belugas>design me a new interface for the show next week...
13:03<@Belugas>yeah right...
13:04<@Belugas>my boss
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13:23<HenkdeVries>hey all
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13:31<HenkdeVries>heh how do you guys make such huge junctions :P mine always result in chaos
13:31<Prof_Frink>HenkdeVries: Chaos is fun.
13:32<Prof_Frink>Just know what you have to link, then run tracks wherever they'll fit.
13:32<HenkdeVries>True.. But not when trying to build a massive railway
13:33<HenkdeVries>Ah well until I finally understand how it all works, I'll stick to copying the ones on the wiki :)
13:33<Prof_Frink>No, it doesn't start that way
13:33<Prof_Frink>It starts as two tracks joining, which is easy.
13:33<HenkdeVries>Yeah, it is
13:33<Prof_Frink>It turns into utter chaos as you have more and more coal mines delivering to one power station
13:34<HenkdeVries>Lol, also true
13:34<Prof_Frink>The only thing I specifically try to do is have merges as late as possible, and splits as early as possible.
13:34<HenkdeVries>Still, I'm having problems even with the easiest junctions
13:35<@peter1138>split before merge
13:35<@peter1138>helps flow tremendously
13:35<Prof_Frink>And generally, more parallel tracks == more capacity
13:35<@peter1138>so that's clover leafs out
13:36<Prof_Frink>It's all about the Whirlpool for a 4-way interchange
13:36*fjb always builds only simple junctions.
13:41-!-Amis [] has joined #openttd
13:44<fjb>Complicated things confuse me. I'm building simple things like this:
13:50<fjb>And here ist a small sawmill station:
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13:53<TiberiusTeng>peter1138, could you describe the OpenGL threading problem you encountered before?
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14:04<Amis>I have a question.
14:04<Amis>Why i can't rename he bouys?
14:04<hylje>they don't belong to you
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14:11<@Belugas>normal. I'm sure it's waht you were going to say ;)
14:14<HenkdeVries>lol why would you want to rename bouys?
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14:17<fjb>Same reason why you remane waypoints.
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14:24<@Belugas>when they belong to you, cool, no problem...
14:24<frosch123>one could argue, that everyone should be allowed to rename them...
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14:27<SmatZ>or that buoys should have owner
14:29<frosch123>Well the original AI never built ships. So orginally buoys always belonged to the human player. I.e. the whole multiplayer stuff is flawed and should be reverted :p
14:30<SmatZ>I think TTO wasn't planned with AI originally
14:30<SmatZ>so it shouldn't be the reason
14:30<SmatZ>but I am not really sure
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14:41<HenkdeVries>Airplanes ruin the whole game in multiplayer
14:41<planetmaker>then switch them off
14:42<planetmaker>(or ask the admin to do so or start next game w/o)
14:43<SmatZ>or change planespeed
14:43<SmatZ>or use planeset that changes prices according to planespeed
14:43<SmatZ>it's your fault you don't know how to play with planes
14:45<HenkdeVries>Lol now it's my fault :P
14:45<HenkdeVries>Admin won't restart the whole game for me
14:45<@Belugas>well... there are plenty of ways to control the planes.
14:45<HenkdeVries>and I can host but no-one sees me for some reason
14:45<SmatZ>then go to another server
14:45<HenkdeVries>I usually do
14:45<@Belugas>Whos fault is it if you do not know them?
14:45*Sacro blames Belugas
14:46*HenkdeVries blames Belugas too
14:47*Belugas just turns his head around and quit the room wrapped in all his dignity
14:47<HenkdeVries>well belugas, apparently the whole world is against you!
14:47*SmatZ stays with Belugas
14:47<HenkdeVries>or atleast 2 people.
14:47-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by Belugas
14:47*HenkdeVries suddenly agrees with belugas too
14:48-!-HenkdeVries was kicked from #openttd by SmatZ [User terminated!]
14:48<@SmatZ>mmm no kick message
14:48<planetmaker>User terminated! ^
14:48<@SmatZ>that's default one
14:49<planetmaker>and he doesn't return... :S
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14:49<fjb>Oh, oh...
14:49<HenkdeVries>oh wait
14:49<HenkdeVries>it says 'no idiots' in the rules
14:49<planetmaker>try that smiley: :)
14:49<HenkdeVries>I thought you kicked me for no reason but nvm then !
14:49<HenkdeVries>what's wrong with the smiley?
14:50<planetmaker>don't anger the OpenTTD gods ;)
14:50<HenkdeVries>the Gods hate the happy smiley?
14:50<planetmaker>I don't think so...
14:50<@Rubidium>isn't it the mad cow smiley?
14:51<HenkdeVries>no, that's >:-O
14:51<HenkdeVries>I guess.
14:51<HenkdeVries>ah, netherlands vs. italy is on, afk
14:51<planetmaker>he. good and graceful excuse found ;)
14:52<@Rubidium>NL vs. It sounds like a reason to no go AFK
14:52<@Belugas>planetmaker, you got my PM?
14:53<planetmaker>uh... no. on the forums? via IRC?
14:53*planetmaker goes checking... sorry
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14:53<jojo_110110010>hi. :)
14:53<jojo_110110010>Is there any OpenTTD developer?
14:54<@SmatZ>here? openttd? no...
14:54<@Rubidium>there are for sure no 434 developers ;)
14:54<jojo_110110010>I've got a suggestion and i'm too lazy to register to the phorum...
14:54<@Belugas>IRC indeed planetmaker
14:54<@SmatZ>oh, a suggestion!
14:54<frosch123>try the wiki
14:54<@SmatZ>did you search at forums, wiki and ?
14:55<jojo_110110010>nothing like it :)
14:55<jojo_110110010>(I hope)
14:55<jojo_110110010>How about to make a "Favorite server list"? :)
14:55<+glx>there's already something like that
14:55<@SmatZ>not suggested for the first time
14:56<planetmaker>bugger... how do I access private IRC messages... I'm on a different comp now turned on half an hour ago...
14:56<+glx>openttd remembers the last used server
14:56<@SmatZ>but I quite like the idea of "favourite" servers
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14:56<+glx>and if you use the "add" button they are stored in the config too
14:57<jojo_110110010>yeah it does remember, but only if you typed it in "add button"..
14:57<@SmatZ>yeah, and for some reason, the list resets semetimes :-x
14:59<jojo_110110010>So... My suggestion is accepted? Which programming language is OpenTTD developed? C? I know Python, so if it is useful, i'd like to help you :)
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14:59<Ammler>It is much easier then registering at Pornums
15:00<@Rubidium>it's just added on a big big list of suggestions without any certainty of something being done with it
15:00<@SmatZ>jojo_110110010: C++
15:01<jojo_110110010>Rubidium: oh... I didn't see it on wiki.. Was it there?
15:01<@Rubidium>no idea
15:02<jojo_110110010>nevermind... Ok.. That's everything what i wanted to say :)
15:02<jojo_110110010>bye then :)
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15:29<XeryusTC>planetmaker> bugger... how do I access private IRC messages... I'm on a different comp now turned on half an hour ago... <- you're on our bouncer right?
15:30<XeryusTC>try /msg *away show
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15:33<HenkdeVries>Rubidium: I am dutch, that's why it's a reason to watch the match :) Oh and it's 2-0 for the Netherlands :D
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15:35<@Rubidium>so it looks that soccer hell's going to continue longer than just the first round? That really sucks
15:36<HenkdeVries>Why do you hate the Netherlands?
15:36<@Rubidium>I hate soccer
15:36<HenkdeVries>oh lol
15:36<HenkdeVries>misread the sentence
15:36<XeryusTC>soccer should be burned alive *evil*
15:36*SpComb burns XeryusTC alive
15:36<HenkdeVries>lol, I hate soccer too, but not when the national team plays :D
15:37<XeryusTC>well thank you
15:37<@Rubidium>and I hate soccer because all those (few) "'real' supporters" completely destroy all the fun
15:37*HenkdeVries throws XeryusTC's ashes into the sea
15:37<@Rubidium>and because all the stupid crap that's associated with it
15:37<HenkdeVries>very true rubidium
15:37<HenkdeVries>but I'm going back to second half now, afl
15:38<dih>NOT INTO THE SEA!!!
15:38<planetmaker>XeryusTC: thanks. I should somewhere not that down...
15:39<dih>his ashes will rain down on us some time...
15:40<XeryusTC>planetmaker: *away should notify you if it got PMs while you were away :P
15:40<dih>nice one
15:40<planetmaker>dih told me yesterday the same... but my memory :P
15:40<dih>if - and only if - that module is enabled :-P
15:41<dih>i once gave Osai admin rights on the bouncer
15:41<dih>and he tried /msg *status shutdown
15:41<dih>and wonderd why the bouncer was gone!
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16:39<HenkdeVries>Netherlands won 3-0 :D
16:39<HenkdeVries>they kicked italy's ass ^^
16:40<HenkdeVries>so back to OpenTTD
16:42<@Rubidium>poor Wolf01
16:42<Wolf01>eh what?
16:42<Wolf01>I don't like soccer :P
16:43*Rubidium likes Wolf01's attitude
16:46<@Rubidium>wow what?
16:46*HenkdeVries agrees with Wolf01 but likes the European cup games anyway
16:47<HenkdeVries>Stupid signals
16:47<HenkdeVries>Never get them to work properly
16:47<HenkdeVries>yeah, no one expected that
16:47<jordi>I care not about football, but 3-0 is somehow "wow" anyway :)
16:48<HenkdeVries>It certainly is, according to Italian newspapers we 'stood no chance in hell' if I may translate it in that way
16:48*Rubidium wonders why 5 games went unmentioned
16:48<HenkdeVries>Anyway, it was a pretty good match. Now I'm going back to my goddamn signals
16:49<HenkdeVries>which don't work
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16:50<HenkdeVries>I'll just use trucks then
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16:50<HenkdeVries>goddamn signals.. I'll get them to work properly >=(
16:50<planetmaker>HenkdeVries: have a look at the wikis of OpenTTD and OpenTTDcoop.
16:50<HenkdeVries>I'll 'never' get them to work, that is
16:51<HenkdeVries>I did, planetmaker
16:51<HenkdeVries>Still they don't run very well
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16:52<planetmaker>with pre-signals think backwards :)
16:53<HenkdeVries>I already tried pre-signals
16:53<HenkdeVries>Well at least the trains run now, but they have to turn around sometimes :(
16:54<planetmaker>HenkdeVries: then it's rather a network than a signaling problem.
16:54<HenkdeVries>blaab: Yes it does. planetmaker: Hmmh could be, I'll try to edit it a bit
16:54<planetmaker>got a save?
16:56<HenkdeVries>No, I'm starting over. Just created a huge map, low cities and stuff just to try to build a working train network
16:56<HenkdeVries>Thanks for the tut btw
17:00<HenkdeVries>I still have difficulties
17:00<HenkdeVries>after following both openttd and openttdcoop's tutorials
17:01<stillunknown>What kind of problems?
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17:07<HenkdeVries>well, it probably has to do with the network
17:07<HenkdeVries>but my trains constantly have to stop in front of each other, causing one to turn around and stuff
17:07<HenkdeVries>which basically, just sucks
17:10<stillunknown>So, find the place that causes the congestion.
17:14<HenkdeVries>I'm trying
17:19<HenkdeVries>WEll enough openTTD for me
17:19<HenkdeVries>cya all
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17:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13436 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_controller.cpp:
17:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change: call the constructor of the SQ when the ->Start() is called of
17:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: AIController. This makes sure the SQ code is always executed inside the thread,
17:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: and not inside the main-thread. This has no change what so ever for AIs.
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17:35<fjb>Help! My trains get loaded faster than they are able to leave the station. :-/
17:35<Progman>more lines
17:36<fjb>I feared that answer... But where to build them. No space left there.
17:36<Sacro>fjb: you'd rather they leave quicker than they can load?
17:37<fjb>No, they load faster than the can leave!
17:39<fjb>The trains are too slow or the loading ist too fast.
17:40<Progman>switch the "improve loading" setting
17:40<Progman>then they load slower as they must wait for the preceding train to load
17:41<fjb>I already did that.
17:41<Kiloman>what's too slow about it? they get loaded and then are stuck waiting for open track to leave?
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17:42<fjb>I could try to make the trains longer. But I doubt that that would help enough.
17:42<Progman>show us a screenie of your station
17:42<fjb>No, the track is free. The trains accelerate too slow and even the top speed woul be too slow.
17:42<Kiloman>sounds like you need more engines
17:43<Kiloman>and to enable realistic acceleration
17:44<fjb>Then top speed is still a problem. I never hat that problem before. A second line could be the solution, or even more lines to different directions.
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17:44<fjb>Realistic accelertion is already enabled.
17:44<Kiloman>if your engines are not powerful enough for the load you won't ever hit max speed, even on a flat straightaway
17:45<Kiloman>how many cars do you have, and how many engines?
17:45<Progman>simply show us the station which jams ;)
17:45<fjb>I know, but still top speed would be too low.
17:46<Kiloman>as the kids say, "pics or ban"
17:46<fjb>26 cars and 2 most powerful engines, going downhill from the station.
17:46<Progman>screenshot or it isn't happend
17:49<fjb>Hm, more trains to diffenrent direction should be the solution. That is the "more lines" solution.
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>*mental note* do not read the suggestions forum
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18:34<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: What happened?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>it's full of shit...
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18:36<fjb>Oh, thought you found something unusual there.
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20:17<@Belugas>i would relly like to know what he's saying...
20:17<@Belugas>most unclear, if ou ask me
20:21<+glx>he likes using hard ways it seems
20:22<@Belugas>yeah... or he has no idea whatsoever what you have suggested
20:26<@Belugas>so, are you going to commit it? or ask to Oskar, Lakie or even Dalestan?
20:28<+glx>for now only OzTrans replied
20:33<@Belugas>hey Lakie :)
20:33<Kiloman>just out of curiosity, is openttd multithreaded?
20:33<@Belugas>and don't ask for making it multithreaded either please ;)
20:33<Kiloman>does the newai stuff run in a thread or something?
20:33<+glx>except for saving and map generation
20:33<Kiloman>not asking, just curious
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20:34<Kiloman>ahh OK
20:34<@SmatZ>there were attempts to make it multithreaded, but with ~10% performance gain
20:34<+glx>each ai is it's in own thread in NoAI, but they don't run in parallel
20:34<Kiloman>'cause I saw some stuff in the changelog about threads, and was confused... since it seemed like it was pretty monolithic
20:34<@Belugas>Lakie, can you voice your opinion on the var Pikka proposed and glx built?
20:34<Kiloman>is that just for simplicity's sake?
20:35<Kiloman>so you don't have to worry about locking etc?
20:35<@SmatZ>the performance gain is not worth the code complexity growth
20:36<@SmatZ>10% perf gain with rather unsafe threads usage... is not worth it
20:36<+glx>it's indeed easier to run ai in "serialised" threads else you have to lock/unlock the map way too much
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20:36<@SmatZ>because if it had to be really safe, that 10% would probably vanish
20:36<+glx>every openttd action is based on the map state
20:36<Kiloman>so why do them in threads at all, just to keep 'em in an easy run queue?
20:37<+glx>because it's also easier to have them in threads
20:37<+glx>so they use their 'own' memory
20:37<+glx>and their own stack
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20:38<+glx>Belugas: you made hi die ;)
20:38<@Belugas>he';ll be back ;)
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20:41<+glx>Kiloman: and serialisation is needed for networking too, to prevent desyncs
20:42<@SmatZ>in the experimental thraded branch, rendering and different vehicle types run independently
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20:42<@SmatZ>unless newgrf needs Random(), it works :)
20:42<@Belugas>told you!
20:42<Lakie>What did you want, Belugas?
20:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13437 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp town_map.h): -Feature[newGRF]: Add long format introduction and maximum construction year for house.
20:42<@SmatZ>of course, one could use different Random() for different vehicle types
20:42<+glx>road and rail can't be splitted anyway
20:42<@SmatZ>and rail uses most of CPU time anyway...
20:43<+glx>unless you use boats with ypaf ;)
20:44<Kiloman>does boat yapf consider every water tile a decision node or something?
20:44<+glx>yes, all pf do that
20:44<Kiloman>for boats
20:44<@SmatZ>in fact, it is not the best solution performance-wise
20:44<@SmatZ>but it works this way
20:45<@SmatZ>I would say it is the simplest and slowest solution
20:45<@Belugas>Lakie, basically, your opinion on the idea Pikka brough up, and which glx created the supporting code.
20:46<@Belugas>do you think it is a good direction?
20:46<+glx>there has been an attempt for a "region" pathfinder
20:46<@Belugas>Lakie : top post (or nearby)
20:47<@SmatZ>take (important) coast borders and create YAPF based on it...
20:48<+glx>anyway "openspace" is the worst case for an A* pathfinder
20:48<Lakie>I'm not sure really, I guess it would be semi useful however it wouldn't nessarily solve the issue and may just lead to a 'if (!(veh.grfid != this.grfid))' check
20:48<@SmatZ>take straight line if you can
20:49<Kiloman>yeah like a straight-line raycast virtual path or something
20:51<@SmatZ>problem is that ship asks at each tile where it should go now
20:51<@SmatZ>and you have to check the path
20:51<@SmatZ>maybe cache is too small
20:51<@SmatZ>anyway, I think recommending YAPF as default PF for ships wouldn't hurt
20:51<@SmatZ>as maximum buoy distance is hold
20:52<@Belugas>Lakie, do you think the "array" of friends and foes would be a better direction?
20:53<Lakie>I'm not sure to be really, both have their merits.
20:53<Lakie>I'd imagine the friend foe would be ok-ish
20:53<Lakie>But, both have one common issue
20:54<Lakie>They are short sighted
20:54<Lakie>Ie. they don't take into account grf changes (in which the id normally alters) or new grf sets
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20:55<+glx>the main usage for this var will probably be to prevent attaching wagons not commit from the grf itself
20:57<Lakie>I understand that.
20:58<Lakie>But its shorted sighted
20:58<Lakie>Lets take an example
20:58<Lakie>IT has an addon set
20:58<@SmatZ>so can it be defined only for wagons?
20:58<Lakie>UKRS was not been released for it, and following that policy, all addon sets would be considered foes
20:59<Lakie>Thus meaning UKRS would have to b updated every time there is an addon
21:00*SmatZ should have a look at glx's patch
21:00<+glx> <-- very small patch ;)
21:03<@Belugas>unless glx's var can be used in a callback, where the author can verify if the attaching wagon can be matched with the loco itself
21:03<@Belugas>or something along the way
21:03<+glx>hmm maybe I should use grf overrides
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21:04<@Belugas>thanks for comments, Lakie
21:04<Lakie>Your welcome
21:06<@SmatZ>glx: thanks
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22:20<gousty>is there a way to return the patch settings to defautl?
22:21<gousty>and what patch settings do you guys recommend?
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22:26<Kiloman>gousty: delete your ini file perhaps?
22:26<gousty>where is it?
22:27<gousty>it've tried uninstalling and erasing the folder, it didn't work, i'm scanning registry now...
22:28<gousty>hah, found it
22:28<Kiloman>:\Documents and Settings\<username>\My Documents\OpenTTD
22:30<gousty>what patch configs do you recommend Kiloman?
22:30<Kiloman>a little weird, since I generally expect user-specific config files and the like to go into <profilePath>\Application Data\<appname>
22:30<Kiloman>don't ask me, I'm just a nosy newbie :p
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22:57<@Belugas>gousty, the ones that are going to make ou happy. not the ones that others do like...
22:57<@Belugas>it's a personnal decision.
22:58<@Belugas>kiloman: config files, grfs, savegames, screenshots,.. all those are documents
22:58<@Belugas>granted, config files coulds be in applicaion data, but then it means they will eventually be scatered all around the place.
22:59<@Belugas>som keep it in one section is better
22:59<@Belugas>hence, My Documents which is, after all, a user based one
23:02<Pikka>Belugas: how did you get on with that var? :)
23:02<Kiloman>yeah but you could also say that a user's bookmarks, application settings, etc are documents
23:03<@Belugas>Kiloman, yo have to draw a line somewhere. we did it. that was our decision. sorry
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23:03<@Belugas>working on it :)
23:05<@Belugas>i just want to be sure, so it's a matter of verifying all that i can :)
23:06<Pikka>good good
23:08<@Belugas>but... why since 1920?
23:08<@Belugas>that is what B0 is, iirc
23:11<Kiloman>just being picky :p
23:13<Kiloman>I think you can even just use %APPDATA% if you don't want to mess with the CSIDL resolution BS
23:14<@Belugas>thqt is sooo boring...
23:14<Kiloman>if I had a Windows box and VS I'd submit a patch for it
23:15<Pikka>belugas.. what?
23:15<@Belugas>it is a standard tried to be enforced by a company who is very well known to break standards whenever it sees fit.
23:15<Kiloman>maybe if I get bored I'll set up a vm
23:15<Pikka>B0 is from 1920, I want a long date version (ie, from 0). :P
23:15<@Belugas>misunderstood you...
23:16<@Belugas>you saod something like B0, but for vehicles...
23:16<@Belugas>my fault, i shou;ld have figured it out...
23:16<Pikka>I said a long date equivalent of B0 for industries, I think. :P
23:16<@Belugas>mmh... true...
23:17<@Belugas>seems like i ha dnot enugh coffee yet...
23:17<Pikka>there's already a vehicle equivalent. ;) C0 W Vehicle age in days
23:17<@Belugas>ok, i'll go to sleep now. tomorrow i'll be very busy. but i might try to work a bit on it more
23:17<@Belugas>true Pikka
23:18<@Belugas>anyway, good night/day :)
23:19<Kiloman> w00t
23:19<Kiloman>man I hate Windows
23:19<Kiloman>15 different ways to do something, and they all change all the time
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 10 00:00:09 2008