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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-20

---Logopened Fri Jun 20 00:00:44 2008
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03:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13591 /trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support CB36 in the vehicle offer window.
03:31<@peter1138>not that again :p
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause2>"how to say 'convenient' in german" - "The Germans don’t have a word for this concept, just like we don’t have 'Schadenfreude'" :p
05:37<Eddi|zuHause2>['we' refers to an american here]
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05:41<Mchl>what's Schadenfreude?
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05:41<Eddi|zuHause2>when you laugh about someone who had bad luck or made a mistake ;)
05:41<Mchl>i see
05:45<Gekz>Yes, most Germans eat with fork and knife, though in Bavaria they just use finger and knife.
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05:47*Hendikins snickers at the last one
05:47<Hendikins>what do germans taste like
05:47<Hendikins>A lot like chicken, I would guess.
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05:52<Eddi|zuHause2>what troubles me the most is that someone must actually have typed that into google :)
05:53<Mchl>if i learn german, will i ever actually use it?
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05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, read the "don't learn german" article ;)
05:54<Eddi|zuHause2>(on the right, the "most popular" section)
05:54<Zahl>nice website :_D
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05:56<Zahl>omg i cant stop laughing
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05:59<Mchl>hmmm... we also have three genders here...
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06:00<Mchl>and seven cases
06:00<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a slavic language, that doesn't count ;)
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06:12<Zahl>i like how he translated the gender table there
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08:07<dih>is Belugas around?
08:07<planetmaker>I saw one recently. But that was in Berlin and probably another ;)
08:08<Doorslammer>I have seen no plug ugly planes around, sorry :)
08:08<planetmaker>maybe another year then :P
08:09*dih cies out for Belugas
08:10<Doorslammer>Maybe cry for him instead :S
08:11<fjb>Hm, what time of day is it in Canada right now?
08:13<dih>-5 - -12 h
08:14<Eddi|zuHause2>dih: he appears typically around 15:15
08:14<dih>thanks Eddi
08:14<dih>fjb: canada is big
08:14<dih>multiple timezones
08:14<dih>just like... uh... europe?
08:14<Doorslammer>And Australia
08:16<fjb>Belugas is Canadian, that's why I asked.
08:16<dih>yes, but you are understanding that asking for 'time in canada' is a very unprecise question
08:18<fjb>It may be unprecise, but it can give a hint when you can expect him to be around here.
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08:18<dih>so 1400 (CEST) -5 too early? NOPE
08:19<dih>and i know that he lives in canada
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08:19<dih>so unless you can point out a more precise timezone, it's not very helpful
08:19<Doorslammer>Good grief, dont ask for much do you?
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08:21<dih>and where is that too much?
08:21<Doorslammer>Well hes only giving an approximation
08:22<dih>yep, with a range of 7 hours
08:22<dih>which fits' 'Belugas should be here' and 'Belugas will not be here for another 5 hours'
08:22<dih>wonderful answer
08:23<Doorslammer>Well, maybe he should have just ignored you
08:24<dih>or thought about it befor saying it :-P
08:24<dih>would have helped too :-P
08:24<Doorslammer>OK then
08:24<Eddi|zuHause2>and Belugas should be -6 hours from here
08:25<Doorslammer>Belugas is not here and we dont have a foogiest idea when he will be
08:25<Eddi|zuHause2>but it could be -7, not sure
08:25<dih>see - that's a more precise answer! thanks Eddi
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08:25<Doorslammer>Good grief, is it?
08:25<dih>Doorslammer: then consider yourself as 'NOT ASKED'
08:25<dih>if you dont know the answer just ignoer it!
08:26<Doorslammer>You didnt know the answer either
08:26<Doorslammer>Why didnt you?
08:26*dih slaps Doorslammer
08:26<dih>i ASKED the question
08:26<dih>get off my back!
08:28<Mchl>hey! no physical abuse here! :P
08:28*dih ignores *!Doorslamme@*
08:28<Mchl>this won't work dih
08:29<dih>depends on the client
08:29<Mchl>you missed a letter
08:29<dih>and the bouncer
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08:29<dih>did i now?
08:29<dih>use /whois :-P
08:29<Mchl>right :P
08:31<dih>it's a shame this channel is filling with the 'user' type people from the forums :-P
08:33<Mchl>oh come on... random chat is random chat... no need to get emotional
08:35<Doorslammer>Well its the height of rudeness of bothering people if they dont give you the answer they look for
08:35<Doorslammer>That is all
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08:46<dih>Eddi: :-)
08:48<Doorslammer>Still no reason to throw pots and pans about like a girl
08:48<dih>Eddi: i once had a chat with 2 girls from america, aske where they were from... 'america!'
08:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean... you read too much into it, Doorslammer...
08:49<dih>c'mon: that's just as good had i said 'im from europe'
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08:49<dih>most unprecise responses ever
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08:51<@Belugas>[08:22] <Doorslammer> Belugas is not here and we dont have a foogiest idea when he will be <--- proof that he does not know me that much :P
08:51<@Belugas>here i am dih
08:51<Eddi|zuHause2>you're early :p
08:52<@Belugas>for all to know : i'm "here" from 9 to 5, monday to friday, GMT-5 ( i think)
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09:00<planetmaker>6 hours a day, 5 days a week doesn't sound too bad :)
09:01*planetmaker should take some extra class in calculus...
09:01<dih>he's slacking... look at it!
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09:02<Eddi|zuHause2><dih> most unprecise responses ever <-- well, they COULD have said "Earth", "Solar System" or "Universe" instead :p
09:02*dih was not sure that would have been a correct answer with those girls :-P
09:06<Mchl>they could answer: 'from here"
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09:47<dih>would it be a lot of work to increase the grf limit (quick guesstimate)?
09:47<dih>(not asking for trunk)
09:49<Mchl>someone did it on forums IIRC
09:49<Eddi|zuHause2>you mean it's not a #define MAX_GRFS 30
09:49*dih has no idea :-(
09:50<dih>i am asking because i am kinda wondering if there is more than just that to it
09:50<dih>thanks Mchl, but we would not have to worry about that
09:50<dih>i am considering this for wwottdgd
09:51<Mchl>that's all I know about the issue :)
09:51<dih>which is a build of openttd for a single event lasting about 24-36 hours
09:51<dih>cool :-)
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10:08<TiberiusTeng>dih, if you're increasing LAST_GRF_SLOT and MAX_GRF_SLOTS, be sure to modify PNG_SLOT in png.cpp as well.
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10:08<TiberiusTeng>(I always do that to load ~200 GRFs ...
10:09<dih>TiberisTeng: do you have a working patch?
10:10<dih>if you do, could you join #wwottdgd ;-)
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10:10<TiberiusTeng>It's mererly 2 lines, I don't think it needs a patch :p
10:10<+glx>hmm there's a slot for sound IIRC
10:11<dih>and there is a constant for the number of file pointser openttd (can) handle(s)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe that should be unified somehow ;)
10:11<TiberiusTeng>SOUND_SLOT = 1, FIRST_GRF_SLOT = 2
10:11<TiberiusTeng>so that's okay
10:11<@SmatZ>why isn't PNG_SLOT in fios.h :-x
10:12<TiberiusTeng>CONFIG_SLOT = 0 so that's okay too ... I don't know why PNG_SLOT at last
10:12<TiberiusTeng>maybe it need a completely dynamic file number allocation scheme (?)
10:12<+glx>png is optional
10:12<@SmatZ>glx: still, it can be under #if defined(WITH_PNG) ...
10:12<@SmatZ>in fios.h
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10:17<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: I played yesterday around with the newgrf window and various grfs.
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10:17<planetmaker>It's not an issue of a particular grf that that patch doesn't work for me...
10:18<planetmaker>But I'm not quite sure how to produce good debug output...
10:18<planetmaker>hello SmatZ :)
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10:19<ccfreak2k>Good lord.
10:19<ccfreak2k>Are there even 200 newGRFs?
10:19<planetmaker>ccfreak2k: I'd guess you can reach that number, if you shop around
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10:24<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, original NewGRF window doesn't have this issue ?
10:24<fjb>When expanding one station so that it touches another station, is there a way to decide which of the two station the expansion belongs to? Or that simply not possible?
10:24<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: no, that works
10:25<planetmaker>fjb: not possible
10:25*planetmaker goes checking again
10:26<planetmaker>yeah, no probs
10:27<TiberiusTeng>that's really strange ... perhaps I messed up some pointers in newgrf_gui.cpp, because there isn't any malloc/free stuff in it
10:27<TiberiusTeng>but it do trigger some malloc elsewhere
10:28<planetmaker>the final message I get is "bus error"
10:28<planetmaker>whatever that means...
10:29<TiberiusTeng>I believe almost the same as segmentation fault
10:31<planetmaker>I guess, if I had at least _some_ proficiency with dbg, it would help...
10:33<TiberiusTeng>I think Xcode have some debugging functionality ...
10:34<planetmaker>he :)
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10:35<TiberiusTeng>or give me a VNC access to that Mac computer with patched OTTD ... is this a viable solution? :p
10:35<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: once upon a time the distant-join patch had a window for choosing the station to extend
10:35<@Belugas>Mogwai - I Know You Are But What Am I?
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10:37<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Thank you. But I know that patch. My question was about the unpatched game. I thought about kind of embedding one station into another.
10:43<fjb>It would mainly have been an eyecandy thing anyway.
10:44<Eddi|zuHause2>but yes, a feature like this is definitely missing
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10:47<@Belugas>station into another one?? an Eye Candy???
10:47<@Belugas>gotta be kidding...
10:47<fjb>Yes. :)
10:49<fjb>A coal and an iron ore station, optically one station with different piles of coal and iron ore. :)
10:50<@Belugas>sorry, but...
10:50<fjb>Why? Would have been looking nice.
10:51<@Belugas>can it be done by grf?
10:51<@Belugas>i thnk so
10:51<@Belugas>but code wise, it does not make sens
10:51<@Belugas>it is nuts
10:51<planetmaker>[16:35] <TiberiusTeng> or give me a VNC access to that Mac computer with patched OTTD ... is this a viable solution? :p <--- hehe :) I think I better learn to debug :)
10:53<fjb>What I read there is a problem when one kind of tile (the pile) has to show different kinds of minerals. Only one for a station can be shown. So you get only black or brown piles.
10:53<planetmaker>Belugas: two adjacent stations with different cargo make sense from a routing point of view
10:53<@Belugas>that too
10:54<planetmaker>and sometimes it happens/ed that stations grow together :)
10:54<fjb>That is the other problem.
10:54<fjb>Yes, stations tend to grow.
10:55<TiberiusTeng>I'm not sure how to compile OTTD with debug information ... ./configure --enable-debug ?
10:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13592 /trunk/src/bridge_gui.cpp: -Fix: window size remembering was broken
10:55<planetmaker>Belugas: grow = required extensions due to increased traffic demands
10:55<Eddi|zuHause2>you can put two stations next to each other, you just have to destroy the second station and build it completely new
10:55*Belugas wonders if he uses the same game...
10:55<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: yes, that works for me
10:55<TiberiusTeng>make && gdb ./openttd
10:56<Eddi|zuHause2>(with ctrl)
10:56<@Belugas>than don';t say GROW!
10:56<TiberiusTeng>when it crashes you'll drop into gdb
10:56<@Belugas>a city grows, a plant grows
10:56<@Belugas>not a station!
10:56<@Belugas>damned it
10:56<TiberiusTeng>to see backtrack, variables, etc.
10:57<planetmaker>:) Hey, I'm not a native speaker. extended would be the right word then
10:57<fjb>Belugas: Sometimes it gets crowded:
10:57*Belugas nods
10:57*Belugas goes to work
10:57<@Belugas>at work
10:58<Eddi|zuHause2>then don't say GO! ;p
10:58<fjb>He ran away from our ideas.
10:58<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, I think 'backtrace (bt)', 'frame (f)', 'list' will be the first 3 commands you'll need in gdb. good luck. ;)
10:59<planetmaker>ok, just started
10:59<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, i think "run" would be the first :p
10:59<TiberiusTeng>Eddi|zuHause2, you got me :p
11:01<TiberiusTeng>you can copy & paste the backtrace to so we can examine them together ...
11:02*TiberiusTeng context-switches back to opengl branch
11:02<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: will do. But first it has to crash now. That takes time... which the computer does *something*
11:02<fjb>What happened to the distand join stations patch? Did it have design issues?
11:02<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, take your time :p
11:02<planetmaker>fjb: just grab it :) It works
11:03<planetmaker>I think the latest update is by TiberiusTeng, but it still even applies to current trunk
11:04<fjb>Hm, I don't like to always patch anything. Ok, I'm always using YAPP.
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11:11<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, where's my debug build? :(
11:11<dih>in /dev/null
11:11<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, what do you mean?
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: i believe it's mostly about convincing the devs that the feature is good, balanced and necessary
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11:15<fjb>Hm, yes, maybe limiting the join distance to about 5 tiles or something like that.
11:15<+glx>isn't this patch the one showing a station list to chose in?
11:16<+glx>not MP safe
11:16<fjb>Oh, that is not good.
11:17<@SmatZ>even if it was MP safe
11:17<@SmatZ>would it be included?
11:17<fjb>What is the problem there? The cached station list?
11:17<+glx>the problem is you create the list on your client and another client can remove a station
11:18<fjb>So the server has to manage the list.
11:19<@SmatZ>the command can fail then
11:20<planetmaker>oh... hm. Should I remove it from wwottdgd?
11:22<fjb>Then you will have to select the station to expand first. Like giving orders to vehicles.
11:23<fjb>That would work without the station selection window.
11:24<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, didn't you say you were going to make a opengl build for me or something?
11:25<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: <--- there you go
11:26<+glx>not enough memory
11:27<+glx>you should have seen a message box with "Out of memory. Cannot allocate 564 bytes"
11:27<fjb>Oh, oh...
11:28<+glx>but your OS failed to allocate memory for the message box
11:28<planetmaker>well, no.
11:29<Gekz>I love OASIS
11:29<Gekz>it crashed at school, and the error was
11:29<Gekz>"Error text missing"
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11:29<planetmaker>I didn't see that message. But it shouldn't be a memory problem from "hardware too limited" :)
11:29<@SmatZ>564 bytes, wow :-x
11:30<+glx>anyway the stack trace tells that
11:30<@SmatZ>how can that happen?
11:30<planetmaker>glx: yes, that I see. But I don't understand as it only happens with the newgrf window patch.
11:30<@SmatZ>"Out of memory. Cannot allocate 564 bytes", message=0x178564 "See readme for more info\nMost likely you are missing files from the original TTD"
11:30<@SmatZ>isn';t the text a bit misleading?
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11:30<planetmaker>he, that, too.
11:30<+glx>it's OSX, I don't care ;)
11:31<+glx>but indeed all message boxes have this extra text for OSX
11:36<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, yes, and I'm still working on it :(
11:37<TiberiusTeng>wait, Out of memory?!
11:39<TiberiusTeng>seems that trace is not very helpful ... hmm
11:39<TiberiusTeng>CopyGRFConfigList ... ok.
11:42<planetmaker>hm... it has to be somewhere there. It happens, whenever I click on "apply changes" to the grf list selector
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11:52<TiberiusTeng>ahh! time for Candy Boy ep02
11:59<TiberiusTeng> <-- first ep
12:00<TiberiusTeng>ep02 (japanese) just went online @ NicoVideo
12:00<planetmaker>IC :)
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12:11<@peter1138>replace "tw" with your country code to make it usable :p
12:11<@peter1138>anime is so tedious
12:14<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, did you drag-drop or used the add button ?
12:14<TiberiusTeng>I'm still looking for any suspicious memory access ...
12:14<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: I tried without changing anything (with both, grfs already selected due to openttd.cfg and none) and with the arrow button
12:15<planetmaker>I didn't try drag
12:15<TiberiusTeng>hmm ...
12:15<planetmaker>the result is the same
12:16<planetmaker>I can swap the names fine between the windows. The button apply triggers it
12:22<TiberiusTeng>the accessing/modifying code is almost verbatim copy of original, and the crash point is MallocT complaining out of memory ... I'm puzzled.
12:22<TiberiusTeng>seems you should remove this patch before the problem get solved :(
12:23<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: hm... yeah. Sad as it is, I tend to agree. I also don't find a clue whatsoever...
12:24<TiberiusTeng>ahh. wait a second.
12:24<TiberiusTeng>sel_l didn't get initialized!
12:25<TiberiusTeng>don't know if that's the problem though
12:25<TiberiusTeng>since I can't test & reproduce the situation here. try add this->sel_l = NULL in NewGRFWindow() just above where it initializes sel_r and see how it goes?
12:40<planetmaker>hm.... no.
12:45<planetmaker>I'll raise my level of bloodsugar now and then I'll have another look
12:46<@Belugas>fun to see you guys debugging :)
12:46<@Belugas>it changes ;)
12:47<TiberiusTeng>I really wish someone have Mac and expertise in debugging can lend us a hand ~_~
12:48<@Belugas>and time, don't forget time...
12:49<planetmaker>hehe :)
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13:02*eekee has a mac; plans to be around in a couple of hours to help with debugging
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13:11<TiberiusTeng>I still can't see how it crashes without doing anything before clicking 'Apply' after opening the window ... ahh
13:11<TiberiusTeng>maybe I should put it around for a while
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13:22<TiberiusTeng>ahh ... don't tell me for (); and for () {} differs
13:26<blathijs>TiberiusTeng: Differs in what?
13:27<TiberiusTeng>for (c = nw->list; c != NULL && i > 0; c = c->next, i--) {}
13:27<TiberiusTeng>for (c = nw->list; c != NULL && i > 0; c = c->next, i--);
13:32<blathijs>That shouldn't be compiled differently I guess
13:32<TiberiusTeng>I think so ...
13:32<blathijs>But you are seeing a difference?
13:32<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, you got more than 256 newgrf's ? just found another nasty spot using uint8 to count newgrf's ...
13:33<TiberiusTeng>in SetupNewGRFWindow() // heh, not written by me actually -_-
13:33<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: no, just a few
13:33<planetmaker>hm... wait, also on the not loaded side?
13:35<TiberiusTeng>it's just annoying when the place crashed =/= the place screwed it up ...
13:35<planetmaker>he, yeah
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13:36<TiberiusTeng>the counter should only affect scrolling bar size
13:37<planetmaker>I'll check with less grf (moving my data dir)
13:39<TiberiusTeng>how about opening the window -> close? (not clicking 'Apply')
13:40<planetmaker>will try, too. I'm just recompiling
13:49<planetmaker>it works :P
13:49<planetmaker>but don't ask me why.
13:50<planetmaker>seems like the svn files were somehow seriously borked and revert and up didn't help anymore....
13:50<planetmaker>sorry for wasting your time :(
13:50<planetmaker>(and mine) :P
13:51<TiberiusTeng>it works?
13:51<TiberiusTeng>what works? and how works?
13:51<TiberiusTeng>or it JUST WORKS(tm)? XD
13:53<TiberiusTeng>I'm almost digging into MacOS' malloc debugging ... google("can't allocate region") have many interesting posts about various softwares ...
13:53<planetmaker>it just works :). The svn checkout I had been using must have *something* strange, which didn't go away with svn up and / or svn revert to other / similar / same version
13:53<planetmaker>dunno :S
13:54<planetmaker>may I hand you some nice, cool guiness?
13:55<planetmaker>lesson learnt: if it doesn't work, take new dir, new co and try the same again... don't just do a clean revert.
13:56<TiberiusTeng>it's a nice lesson ...
13:56<planetmaker>I wished it had been less frustrating and time consuming... especially as it also consumed yours and not mine...
13:56<planetmaker>... alone
13:57*planetmaker wonders how much lauging is going on behind the scenes.... :)
13:57<TiberiusTeng>so ... ccfreak2k, seems my promise (?) will be delay for another ... day? :p
13:57<TiberiusTeng>gotta sleep 8)
13:58<planetmaker>:) have a good night, TiberiusTeng :) And thx a lot
13:58<TiberiusTeng>nah, I contributed nothing on this incident ...
13:59<TiberiusTeng>I'll update those nasty variables and make another diff tomorrow, at least
13:59<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: you did. You may just not feel like :)
14:02<+glx><TiberiusTeng> ahh ... don't tell me for (); and for () {} differs <-- the first one gives a warning in gcc 4
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14:06<Touqen>the first is probably a bug
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14:18<Phoenix_the_II>does openttd support OSS4?
14:18<@Rubidium>never heard of that
14:18<Phoenix_the_II>Open Sound System
14:18<@Rubidium>if SDL does, then yes, if it doesn't, then no
14:19<Phoenix_the_II>ok, thats a good enough hint :D
14:24<ccfreak2k>Old Sound System?
14:24<Prof_Frink>Obsolete Sound System?
14:24<eekee>open sound system
14:24<eekee>oh lol
14:26<Phoenix_the_II>I'm the lucky guy wanting to get sound out of my X-Fi
14:26<Phoenix_the_II>and can only use OSS4
14:27<eekee>hmm I'd have got an x-fi if I could
14:28<@peter1138>harr harr
14:28<@peter1138>intel hda works great for me :D
14:28<@Belugas> <-- VERY good reason for not having automatic grf downloads...
14:28<@Belugas>boring VERY BORING users!!
14:29<eekee>not quite good enough for me. I put my old SB live in my comp. It's not fault-free, but it's better
14:29<@peter1138>i have my sb live in too
14:29<@peter1138>but it's unused, heh
14:30<Prof_Frink>Belugas: A better reason would be the exploit I've found in the newgrf code.
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14:30<Phoenix_the_II>i got a sb live aswell :P
14:31<@peter1138>i put it in for the game/midi port
14:31<@peter1138>but turned out i don't need it, and that bit isn't supported under vista anyway
14:31<@peter1138>fucking vista
14:31<@peter1138>or rather
14:31<@peter1138>fucking creative
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14:32<@Belugas>Prof_Frink ?
14:32<@Belugas>planetmaker : ... come on...
14:33<planetmaker>hehe :)
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14:33<planetmaker>don't you consider it a nice feature, Belugas?
14:33<Prof_Frink>Belugas: My carefully crafted GRF that takes over people's computers.
14:35<planetmaker>if you point me to a better place to collect random ideas which might be nice for OpenTTD, I'll also gladly use that :)
14:37<@Belugas>planetmaker, if a user does not know what grf this or that comes from, he just used anything and dumped it in his game
14:37<@Belugas>so, not going to supoprt laziness
14:38<@Belugas>if it is really required, just caetea agame and one after the other, test the grfs
14:38<@Belugas>that is.. quite silly, in my humble opinion
14:38<planetmaker>Belugas: in multiplayer the people who build something are often not around and it is way faster to just check a tile
14:38<planetmaker>it's definitely not about lazyness.
14:40<@peter1138>if it's not lazyness, go implement it :D
14:40<@SmatZ>planetmaker: hehe I several times wanted to code that
14:41<@SmatZ>but never got to it...
14:41<planetmaker>I fear messing around with the for me so far incomprehensible code wrt grfs :)
14:41<@SmatZ>problem is probably that "static" structure of TileInfo
14:41<@SmatZ>probably it would need to be more dynamic
14:42<planetmaker>hm... cannot say I understand that entirely. A tile has to know what's built on it, doesn't it?
14:42<@SmatZ>but the structure you are filling the info to
14:42<@SmatZ>has given fields
14:42<planetmaker>but at this point: I haven't looked at the graphics data structure...
14:42<@SmatZ>with given meaning
14:42<@SmatZ>so you could either add "GRF name" and "additional GRF text"
14:43<@SmatZ>or make it "dynamic"
14:43<@SmatZ>so it returns pairs of "title" and "value"
14:43<@SmatZ>or so
14:43<planetmaker>there's no such thing as a lookup table like: tile xy has graphics ab which belongs to set mn ?
14:43<@SmatZ>planetmaker: anyway, is the place for feature requests
14:43<@SmatZ>that's not universal
14:44<@SmatZ>so, no
14:44<@SmatZ>there is not such a table
14:44<planetmaker>:) I considered posting it there. But I figured it might be better to gather some community feedback first :)
14:44<planetmaker>and keep the officiality-level a bit lower :)
14:46<@Belugas>my feedback is known : BEURK!
14:47<@SmatZ>Belugas: don't you like that?
14:47<@Belugas>not at all
14:47<@Belugas>pas pantoute
14:47<planetmaker>he. I think there's no need for me to look up the meaning of "beurk" :)
14:48<@SmatZ>so, Belugas doesn't like it, it won't be implemented, sorry
14:48<@Belugas>i'm sorry to be rude,
14:48<@Belugas>but since we are asked on and on to comment, i do, and soory for the colateral damages
14:48<@Belugas>not by me, at least, SmatZ
14:48<@Belugas>for sure for sure
14:49<planetmaker>Belugas: that's why I didn't put it to flyspray. Maybe some motivated person likes it and implements it decently :)
14:49<@Belugas>to be honest, I would be VERY surprised
14:50<planetmaker>honestly: me to :)
14:50<planetmaker>but hope dies last :)
14:50<@SmatZ>well there isn't question if anyone codes that
14:50<@Belugas>and i do not talk ONLY abut the "decently" part...
14:50<@SmatZ>but if it will be implemented in trunk
14:50<planetmaker>two questions, indeed.
14:51<planetmaker>or rather three: who? how? acceptable for trunk?
14:52<planetmaker>for me it's - as written - very low priority, but nice-to-have feature
14:53<planetmaker>I'll play happily with and without :)
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15:07*Mchl wonders if it is possible to have buildings from two grfs on one tile
15:08<@peter1138>possibly eventually
15:08<@peter1138>well, objects anyway
15:08<Mchl>objects sure
15:08<@SmatZ>hehe you may replace some sprites of a building
15:08<@peter1138>a station from foo on a rail type from bar
15:08<Mchl>I can have a train on a station
15:09<@SmatZ>but that would look weird
15:09<Mchl>and a bridge from one set over road from another...
15:10<Mchl>but I think no two building ATM
15:13<frosch123>do you consider a house from one grf, using the grass ground sprites from default grfs (or some landscape grf), as a house from two grfs?
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15:15<@SmatZ>frosch123: and foundation for another GRF
15:15<planetmaker>only, if I'd be a grasshopper. Then I could build a flat out of grass,too. But then I'd have to look out for frogs ;)
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15:50<SpComb>meh, this YAPP OpenTTD game is just desyncing every other minute :(
15:51<planetmaker>which? ^
15:51<ecke>SpComb which version?
15:51<@Belugas>with or without grfs?
15:52<ecke>i used TiPP and have problem with trams .... tram was stoped on the road and when i clikc on it i see it in garage on the other side of map
15:52<SpComb>v8, plenty of GRFs
15:52<@Belugas>so, in other words, it can be grfs as well as YAPP...
15:52<SpComb>recently loaded the savegame via singleplayer and added in a tram NewGRF
15:53*Belugas rolls eyes
15:53<SpComb>yeah, I'm not surprised either
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15:53<@Rubidium>SpComb: using any of the canadian GRFs?
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15:55<@Rubidium>then I've got no real idea, except that clients might be using static NewGRFs causing troubl
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15:56<@Rubidium>is it easily reproducable when you reload the game in the server?
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15:58<SpComb>let's see
16:03<svippy>No you!
16:03<pavel1269>i dont think YAPP can cause dasync since i play with it for a long time (just three long games, but still) and no problem
16:04<SpComb>perhaps it's the loading-newgrfs-in-midgame that's causing it then
16:04<eekee>what address does flyspray send email from?
16:07<eekee>ah nvm the email just took time to come
16:11<@Belugas>never a good idea, SpComb. never
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16:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13593 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2095](r13524): sorting by cargo capacity was broken
16:46*eekee updaets
16:47<eekee>SmatZ: awesome service, thanks, lol
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16:54<planetmaker>he, yeah. 10 minutes to late to make it into the next wwottdgd test run
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17:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r13594 /trunk/src/ (date.cpp date_func.h date_type.h newgrf.cpp): -Feature(ette)[FS#2093]: Supply newgrfs with 'day of month', 'leap year' and 'day of year'.
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>no fancy "Support of variable XY"??
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17:20<svip>So, Eddi|zuHause2, when are you releasing the text-based version of openttd?
17:20<svip>Oh, no such plans?
17:20<@Bjarni>svip: there already is one
17:21<@Bjarni>it's called dedicated server
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>just pipe sdl through aalib
17:21<@SmatZ>SDL_VIDEODRIVER=aalib bin/openttd
17:21<eekee>a nethack-like display would be more fun than aalib ^_^;
17:22<svip>You hear some trains in the distance.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>and why me of all people?!?
17:22<@SmatZ>:-D @ svip
17:22<eekee>svip: no that's adventure and wumpus
17:22<@SmatZ>I spent a lot of time with nethack :)
17:22<@SmatZ>never finished it though
17:23*Bjarni starts to wonder what nethack is
17:23<eekee>so did I, but I cheated with a pixielated Qt interface :D
17:23<@SmatZ>and cheated by backuping savegames :-P
17:23<@Bjarni>I heard the name before but....
17:23<svip>Sounds like a pixie version.
17:23<@SmatZ>Bjarni: an RPG game
17:23<eekee>Bjarni: text-mode RPG with top-down view. Used different characters to represent walls, monsters, etc
17:23<Mchl>Bjarni: a rouguealike RPG game
17:24<eekee>svip: ya, not really the right word. It had pixmaps, images
17:24<Mchl>there's also graphical interface for it, that puts bitmaps instead of chars
17:24<@SmatZ>replacing characters with bitmaps :)
17:25<@SmatZ>hehe yeah Mchl
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>svip: you still did not answer my question
17:25<Mchl>or like... several such interfaces actually
17:25<Mchl>I think I've even seen one with isomteric view
17:25<svip>I'd rather spend eternity eating sharps of broken glass, Eddi|zuHause2.
17:25<@Bjarni> <-- looks pretty impressive for ascii art maps
17:25<eekee>yeah, I think there might have been one opengl one, although I doubt it looked wonderful
17:26<Mchl>yeah... you've found it
17:26<svip>Bjarni, that's why you should love unicode.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>i think someone earned a big *PLONK* right there...
17:26<svip>It's that powerful.
17:27<@Bjarni> <-- but I guess you were talking about this version
17:27<Mchl>I never really got into nethack... but I spend endless hours with ADOM, which is quite similar
17:27<@SmatZ>ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 emerge noegnud-nethack noegnud-slashem
17:27<@SmatZ>for those gentoo-users there :)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2><SmatZ> replacing characters with bitmaps :) <- i remember norton utilities did that for the mouse coursors
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>and checkboxes
17:28<@Bjarni>hmm... the text looks like it's 2nd edition AD&D
17:29<eekee>It probably is
17:29<eekee>(based on that, that is)
17:30<@Bjarni>reminds me of a character I once had (in a paperbased game). I rolled him and he had 18 str, 16 dex and 17 con. I decided for a fighter and rolled 1D100 for str... and rolled 96
17:30<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, it was nice to see it after program start, how some characters changed :)
17:30<@Bjarni>nobody wanted to pick a bar fight with that guy :D
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17:31<@SmatZ>I don't like these game much
17:31<@SmatZ>you can spend one day rolling the dices :-P
17:31<@SmatZ>to get nice values
17:31<@Bjarni>I never did that
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17:32<@SmatZ>I remember I played TES2 : Daggerfall ...
17:32<@Bjarni>I just rolled right away and stayed at whatever it was (except if average score was below 7 or something like that)
17:32<Mchl>I remember a female thief I played once in Warhammer FRP
17:32<@SmatZ>there were dices at game start, too...
17:32<Mchl>I rolled her height to be about two meters...
17:32<Mchl>pretty stealth...
17:35<@Bjarni>I remember one time when I had a cleric. While I was sleeping my party member decided to attack me (why???). He attacked with some spell and rolled it badly. I made my saving through and survived and killed him before he had a new action
17:35<@Bjarni>that was kind of stupid
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17:36<@Bjarni>then I had no guard so I didn't want to sleep on the ground. I climbed a tree and started sleeping up there and fell down X_X
17:37<Mchl>yeah... party members are more deadly than enything that can be found in Monster's Manual
17:38<@Bjarni>I never figured out why he attacked me
17:39<@Bjarni>he was somewhat upset afterwards
17:39<@Bjarni>I don't think he was bored
17:39<@Bjarni>he was somewhat bored afterwards though
17:39<@Bjarni>until I cast "speak with dead"
17:40<@Bjarni>and then raise dead
17:40<@Bjarni>he then had to suffer -1 con permanently for that stunt
17:40<Mchl>tough luck
17:40<Mchl>do you know Order of The Stick?
17:41<Mchl>google it if you dare losing severa hours on D&D themed webcomic
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17:41<Mchl>quite funny
17:42<@Bjarni>I read that Facebook, google and so on will be services that you will have to pay for from 2012 or something like that
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17:43<Mchl>how about OTTD?
17:43<@Bjarni>the great part was that a whole lot of people (including media people) took it seriously and it turned out to be produced by some guy who wanted to make a joke
17:44<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Well, you will have to pay to use google
17:44<Prof_Frink>As google will be your ISP
17:44<ccfreak2k>Must be a spin on the old "MSN will charge for e-mail addresses".
17:44<Mchl>I'm still wondering, what's google eventually going to do
17:44<Mchl>they're not giving free services without some plan I suppose
17:44<Prof_Frink>Mchl: Googlebot will become self-aware.
17:45<@Bjarni>we considered stop giving out OpenTTD for free
17:45<@Bjarni>and talked about charging an arm and a leg for it
17:45<Prof_Frink>You thought the Terminator was bad? Well, now it knows that you searched for goat porn.
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17:45*Mchl just thinks of consequences of self-aware web bots...
17:45<@Bjarni>but we decided against it.... we wouldn't know what to do with a pile of arms and legs
17:45<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: The term "Fork off" comes to mind.
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17:46<Mchl>say it with Scottish accent, and it'll actually sound rude :P
17:49<@Bjarni>say it with a Welsh accent and you will actually sound... ununderstandable :P
17:49<Prof_Frink>Fork off, boyo
17:50<Prof_Frink>or "Baaaaaaaa"
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18:31<SpComb>mm, tasty, a special high-speed line for my first ICE train <3
18:31<SpComb>it goes ~281km/h in a straight line across half the map
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18:38<SpComb>crap, except now I managed to crash one of my BR 103s :(
18:38<SpComb>they don't sell them anymore
18:39<fjb>Try to get one second hand.
18:44<fjb>Hm, how is the airport noise calculated? I don't understand the wiki.
18:53<SpComb>fjb: the bad side of having a monopoly
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: the bigger the airport the bigger the noise, the bigger the town the bigger the tolerance
18:53<SpComb>so you have five international airports in a town
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>SpComb: use 120s or something
18:53<fjb>SpComb: Hm, so no buying from yourself...
18:54<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause2: nor do they sell BR 120s, I subsituted it with a BR 112
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>101s were the successors of the 103
18:54<SpComb>the BR120 doesn't last very long
18:54<fjb>I know the basic working of the noise. What I need are numbers. How do I calculate the minimum distance?
18:55<SpComb>indeed, the BR120 does 160km/h, the BR 103 did 201km/h
18:55<fjb>SpComb: Then you have to go for the ICE.
18:55<Eddi|zuHause2>practically all IC business is done with 101 now
18:55<fjb>Ok, or 101.
18:55<Eddi|zuHause2>which was that other 200km/h one then? 181?
18:57<SpComb>I've still got one or two BR 116's doing local services, mostly replaced with BR140s, now with BR112s
18:57<fjb>181 is only 160km/h.
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18:58<SpComb>mainline is one BR101, some early-model BR103s, some late-model BR103s, two ICE1s
19:00<fjb>That sounds ok.
19:01<SpComb>(plus two BR01s...)
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19:09<ccfreak2k><SpComb> mm, tasty, a special high-speed line for my first ICE train <3
19:09<ccfreak2k>I saw an episode of Modern Marvels earlier which featured a certain German ICE train.
19:10<ccfreak2k>That crashed.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, we read that line :p
19:10<ccfreak2k>I paste it for context.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, as the discussion is that far gone from there...
19:10<ccfreak2k>Which is why I did that.
19:11<Eddi|zuHause2>and yes, the ICE crash near Eschede is the worst german train accident in modern history
19:12<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13595 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add [Library CHANGE]: introducing graph.aystar v4 and pathfinder.road v3, allowing directional searches, tweaking those few bad routes into perfect routes (Yexo)
19:18<@SmatZ>@seen Yorick
19:18<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Yorick was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 5 hours, 30 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <yorick> ok :)
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19:29<SpComb>ah crap, no more diesel passenger engines
19:29<SpComb>not even the ICE-TD yet
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>diesel engines were rarely divided into passenger and freight
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>they were used universally most of the time
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19:31<SpComb>well, in 1999 the only Diesel engine in the DB-set is the DE-AC33C
19:31<SpComb>blue tiger, iirc
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>west germany focused on electrification most of the time, and east germany had no tracks for trains going faster than 120km/h
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19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>except the 18 201 which was used for testing
19:32*SpComb is still running two 69 year old ET-87s up north
19:33<SpComb>the first passenger trains that I built, and I've not yet got around to replacing them
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i find it bad that i cannot recolour the train sets
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20:02<SpComb>right, now the same thing iwth the ICE3
20:14<fjb>Shit. I have an helicopter which stands above a heli port and doesn't move.
20:18<fjb>I can stop it in the air. Strange.
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20:36<fjb>It is standing in the air above the heliport and is stoped. Ofcourse it is blocking the heliport.
20:37<@SmatZ>fjb: trunk?
20:37<@SmatZ>fjb: save that game. Maybe report bug. Does changing planespeed patch help? What value do you have now?
20:38<@SmatZ>anyway, savegame would be interesting
20:38<fjb>Yes, trunk +YAPP +infrstructure sharing. So I'm not sure if that bug is in plain trunk.
20:39<@SmatZ>YAPP shouldn't affect anything
20:39<@SmatZ>IS may
20:39<fjb>The bug occured after one of the orders got invalid.
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20:42<fjb>I'm suspecting IS.
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21:00<fjb>Hm, what problem are the Canset guys having now? No version is availlable anymore. The official reason is the engine pool of OpenTTD. I don't understand that. Why do they not allow any downloads of that set anymore?
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21:08<Belugas_Gone>fjb, can you read?
21:09<Belugas_Gone>"Updates including bug fixes for v0.3 are now suspended until we can provide a workable solution that can cater for multiple GRF engine sets in OpenTTD; it'll be v0.4 ..."
21:09<Belugas_Gone>Thig is, i think OzTransLtd works on impulsion
21:10<Belugas_Gone>nto really taking the time to think
21:10<fjb>Yes, but just documenting that there ist a bug with that feature enabled would be enough till version 0.4 is out. No reason to entirely withdrw version 0.3.
21:13<fjb>The set works in TTDP. TTDP has no engine pool. So why should people playing TTDP not use version 0.3 of that set?
21:16<Belugas_Gone>dont' know. Maybe it's easier than to sustain the critics like "why Canset does not load in ottd" and such...
21:16<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13596 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/pathfinder/road/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: speed-up pathfinder.road a lot (Yexo)
21:17<Belugas_Gone>A personall experience, criticism that are flying like bullets are NOT pleasant...
21:17<Belugas_Gone>at all
21:17<Belugas_Gone>so i can understand them a bit
21:17<Belugas_Gone>them ... or him...
21:17<Belugas_Gone>who knows
21:20<fjb>Some of the criticisms were not nice. But there are idiots every where. You can do nothing about that. But some other criticisms where home grown. Just disabling the set under certain circumstances without explaining any reason is not nice either. Unexpected behavior that is intended by the author is confusing people.
21:22<Belugas_Gone>Granted, but it's their decision, for their reasons. I think it's not a good think to moan about it
21:23<fjb>Explaining the decisions would keep most of the moaning down.
21:25<Belugas_Gone>are you kidding ? It will just start another round of discussions from wannabe coders and others, as to how to circumvent it...
21:25<Belugas_Gone>no, believe me, it's better taht way
21:26<Belugas_Gone>you do not know how often did i wanted to be VERY nasty on forums lately... I can totally undersdtand those guys
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21:27<Belugas_Gone>just take a look at the autodownload of newgrfs
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21:27<Belugas_Gone>we said no countless of times, as with the reasons why not.
21:27<Belugas_Gone>go you think it has stopped the converstaion?
21:27<Belugas_Gone>by far
21:28<Belugas_Gone>at some point, you read it all and say... "haa.... shut up"
21:28<Belugas_Gone>and don't say a word anymore
21:30<fjb>That reasons wehre explained. Nothing stops idiots. But that is another case than doing things without giving the reason.
21:30<fjb>Or do you expect evry one out there to be an idiot?
21:32<Belugas_Gone>to be honest?
21:32<Belugas_Gone>most of the new users are pretty clueless
21:32<Belugas_Gone>i mean...
21:32<Belugas_Gone>it's really ...
21:36<fjb>Clueless doesn't mean not wanting to learn. Nobody know everything at the moment of birth. You have to learn everything.
21:38<+glx>some clearly don't ;)
21:38<Belugas_Gone>indeed :)
21:38<@SmatZ>some think they know everything
21:38<fjb>Some, but not everybody.
21:38<Belugas_Gone>and baby feeding has bever given any reasults
21:40<fjb>The only solution would be to hide the project from new users then.
21:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13597 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp:
21:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Enumification of the Map menu items.
21:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: The rework allowed to remove a function, by merging two quite similar ones.
21:41<Belugas_Gone>not really possible :)
21:41<+glx>at least they could use the search function
21:43<fjb>Most people are using the search function. But nobody hears about them. Only the few stupid people are making much noise.
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21:52<@SmatZ>agreed, fjb
21:53<@SmatZ>the problematic ones are the most loud
21:53<@SmatZ>nobody knows about satisfied people
21:58*Belugas_Gone nods
22:03<bcool>ah man, I forgot why I came into this room
22:03<bcool>I joined then had to go do something now I forgot why I joined
22:06<bowman>what have the clueless users done now? I missed the beginning of this discussion :)
22:09<Belugas_Gone>mostly, harassing with comments on how stuff can be done instead of curent way, asking for features without searching for related (if not identical) versions of the requests, not taking a NO for an answer and keep on asking the same stuff over and over again..
22:09<Belugas_Gone>stuff like that
22:09<Belugas_Gone>usual routine
22:10<Belugas_Gone>and the attitude...
22:10<Belugas_Gone>I KNOW IT ALL!!!!
22:10<Belugas_Gone>you know NOTHING
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22:11<SpComb>ah, an assertion
22:11<SpComb> <-- a pageful of C++ templates
22:13<Belugas_Gone>and a page full of code :)
22:14<Belugas_Gone>nasty stuff, SpComb
22:15<SpComb>I saved the game about two minutes before it crashed, though, so it wasn't that bad for me as a player
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22:19<Belugas_Gone>you might give it to michi_cc, whenever he'll be around
22:19<SpComb> <-- said savegame, in case it's helpful for debugging
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22:36<fjb>Hm, when I'm having an indutry with stockpiling then it may happen that the indutry doesn't take the cargo I'm delivering there. What happens if I'm just dumping the cargo there? I don't get paied for that cargo then. But later when that industry need the cargo again it takes the cargo already waiting at it's station. Du I get paied then for that cargo?
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23:05<fjb>Good night.
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 21 00:00:24 2008