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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-22

---Logopened Sun Jun 22 00:00:57 2008
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04:08<Wolf01>hello
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05:12<@Rubidium>mikk36: then your router/firewall/ISP thinks that you are sending to much of said packet and it closes the connection. There is effectively nothing we can do about it; we already try to circumvent those measures by not sending all packets at once, but more spread out... however, it seems like it doesn't work in your case. Another issue might be routing issues (of the packets) by your ISP.
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05:26<Roujin>Hey guys.. some user (actually not some, but the author of a new, promising newgrf) asked in the suggestions forum about the possibility of a third road type, namely dirt roads / trails. It would be usable by "offroad vehicles" like the ones in his set, plus maybe horse carriages, but not normal roadvehs. As for horse carriages, since we now have the engine pool and aren't limited in numbers anymore, grf authors are going in that direction
05:27<Roujin>I've also done some initial coding and am determined to do it properly this time (not include sprites with a hack like in trafficlights), and would like some opinions about this, possibly also from devs? ;)
05:29<planetmaker>ha, ottd back in the 19th century. A new world opens up :)
05:32<Roujin>The idea is that road vehicles get an additional flag, and if it is set, they are able to go "offroad" - that means on the new third roadtype (additional to normal roads). roadvehs that don't have this flag would not be able to go on the new roadtype.
05:33<Prof_Frink>If you're going that far, you may as well make newroads grf-definable
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05:35<@Rubidium>I've been playing with that idea for a while in my head, but never had the time to write something.
05:37<@Rubidium>it'd allow for 5 different 'roadtypes' and 4 different 'tramtypes', all defined like cargoes
05:38<@Rubidium>and vehicles should therefor also use a system like industries use for cargos, i.e. with labels, to tell one what types of road/trams it can drive
05:38<@Rubidium>then for each road/tram type one can define whether vehicles that do not use the labels can drive over it or not (NewGRF backward compatability)
05:38<@Rubidium>you can't have 2 different roadtypes on one tile
05:38<planetmaker>hm... but wouldn't you need to have at least the default road be non-redefine-able?
05:39<planetmaker>for reasons of compatibility?
05:39<@Rubidium>that's just a 'default' thing that eats from the 5 roadtypes
05:40<@Rubidium>so a trail crossing tarmac would have a single tarmac tile
05:41<Roujin>a trail crossing tarmac? didn't you just say there can't be two road types on one tile then?
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05:41<@Rubidium>what did I say that doesn't support that?
05:42<@Rubidium>I can rephrase it: "if the trail were to cross a tarmac road, the crossing would contain tarmac (assuming it is build first)
05:42<Roujin>i see
05:43<@Rubidium>I furthermore think that we need a rework of the sprites to actually do everything nicely
05:43<Roujin>if the trail were built first and then a tarmac road crossing it, would the crossing be of trail type? (that would be ugly, no?)
05:43<@Rubidium>that's something that should be researched
05:44<@Rubidium>would trail driving things be able to cross tarmac?
05:44<Roujin>i'd say so
05:44<Roujin>rather than the other way around
05:45<Roujin>vehicles that can go over a muddy mess can also drive on fine roads, but not the other way around
05:45<@Rubidium>well, they could completely destroy that road
05:49<Roujin>there might be some vehicles only suited for trails, not for proper roads, but I think the majority of vehicles would be like "can drive on type x or better"
05:50<@Rubidium>the system needs some hooks to define the road surface on brides and tunnels though
05:50<@Rubidium>but I've got no idea whether all bridges are equally wide and such
05:51<Roujin>wide? O_O
05:51<mikk36>Rubidium, but i can get info about hundreds of servers in lfs
05:51<mikk36>but why doesn't it try to reget the list when i click find servers ?
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05:52<@Rubidium>1) I don't know lfs, 2) the system works likely completely different
05:52<planetmaker>hm... I thought bridges were overlaid with the track type?
05:52<@Rubidium>mikk36: probably because your firewall stops it
05:52<mikk36>but i can refresh the servers manually
05:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: lol ;)
05:52<mikk36>by clicking refresh server for each
05:53<@Rubidium>then the firewall stopped blocking it because the 'flood' stopped
05:53<mikk36>i'll check some older version
05:53<mikk36>still i can't click find servers after that :)
05:53<@Rubidium>it is really something with *your* network situation because it works for all the others
05:54<planetmaker>:)
05:58<@Rubidium>hmm... transporting 75% of the amount of cargo of Pile final on a 128x128 map...
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06:00<Roujin>so, you wouldn't be in favor of adding something like trails before a complete rewrite of the system?..
06:00<mikk36>ok, another problem :)
06:00<@Rubidium>Roujin: yup
06:01<@Rubidium>Roujin: as with so many things though
06:01<mikk36>while downloading the map, there's a glitch that when i clicked the download status window, the company names list turned white
06:01<mikk36>known ?
06:02<Roujin>aww, that's a shame ;) now I have to bring the promising new guy bad news :P
06:02<@Rubidium>the major issue is that you are going to add something and three weeks later someone wants to add another roadtype and you're screwed because you have to rewrite even more
06:04<planetmaker>Roujin: rephrase it euphemistically: it's a gorgeous idea. The bad news: it needs some rewrite of the code. the good news: then it will be very easy :)
06:04<Roujin>Well that's true. But how many types are needed at all?
06:04<planetmaker>cannot say, I missed any so far.
06:04<Roujin>5 road types and 4 tram types? isn't that a bit of overkill?
06:04<@Rubidium>*if* you get trails, people want highways too
06:04<@Rubidium>so at least 3 road types
06:05<@Rubidium>for trams you get the non-electrified old version
06:05<@Rubidium>oh, and someone was talking about cobblestone roads
06:05<@Rubidium>so 4 road types already and 2 at least tramtypes
06:06<Roujin>well, for normal roads/trails I can understand it. There are vehicles that can go "offroad", something that other vehicles can't
06:07<Roujin>but highways? In real life, highways are just roads with higher speed limits. But since we don't have speed limits for roads in the game, that makes no sense to me...
06:07<Roujin>what would be the use of them other than looking different from normal roads? :/
06:08<@Rubidium>different speed limits
06:08<@Rubidium>maybe disallowing slow vehicles on highways
06:09<Roujin>hmm interesting..
06:12<Roujin>well, i'm convinced.. sort of :P
06:12<Roujin>that does indeed sound like it might add to gameplay
06:16<Roujin>well.. maybe i could just do with a bigger task - i could have a go at that rewrite if you want..
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause2><Rubidium> I can rephrase it: "if the trail were to cross a tarmac road, the crossing would contain tarmac (assuming it is build first) <-- that would effectively be the same thing as with conventional/electric rail crossing
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06:47<Roujin>Eddi: but that only works if we assume that there is a natural order of road types, like there is for elrail/normal rail
06:47<Roujin>all normal-rail-trains can go over elrail
06:49<Eddi|zuHause2>well, railtypes have a half-order for compatibility, and that is used
06:52<Roujin>yes, point is that the possible road types won't necessarily have that kind of order
06:53<Roujin>that's what raises the question about how to handle crossings...
06:55<planetmaker>IMO it's ok to assume for roads an order like that.
06:56<planetmaker>Or, alternatively, a method like for rails is needed, where elrail and normal rail may be on the same tile, but not with mono rail or maglev
06:56<planetmaker>that'd make sense for situations like trail crosses highway
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07:12<dragonhorseboy>just curious about it but anyone ever thought of a central place for links to different current patch diffs there are to use?
07:13<@Rubidium>yes, even a patch reviewing system... never got beyond thinking
07:13<dragonhorseboy>hum
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07:14<Mchl>hello
07:14<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: You mean an automated patch rejection system?
07:14<dragonhorseboy>yeah having to track down many individual threads to find if there's something .. go figure rubidium
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07:15<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: no
07:17<Alberth>Rubidium: yes, even a patch reviewing system <-- What about Rietveld? http://code.google.com/appengine/articles/rietveld.html
07:18<dragonhorseboy>either way only just asking but did someone ever make a diff/patch to sort stations by more than just name/type?
07:20<Alberth>You mean by Cargo Rating or by Waiting Cargo Value ?
07:21<dragonhorseboy>yeah that
07:21<Alberth>it exists in trunk (at least in my version)
07:23<Alberth>"Name" is clickable
07:24<dragonhorseboy>got a page/thread for the trunk?
07:30<dragonhorseboy>no?
07:30<Mchl>why would anyone need it?
07:31<Alberth>A nightly would do probably.
07:32<Alberth>afaik it has been around quite some time, so any recent version would probably do
07:32<Mchl>dragonhordeboy: 'trunk' is the latest development version of OTTD
07:33<Mchl>sorry for misspelling :P
07:35<dragonhorseboy>hm even the openttd wiki doesn't have any list neither :/
07:36<Mchl>what list are you looking for?
07:36<Doorslammer>Evening all
07:36<dih>[13:21] <Alberth> You mean by Cargo Rating or by Waiting Cargo Value ?
07:36<dih>[13:21] <dragonhorseboy> yeah that
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07:39<Alberth>dragonhorseboy: Open window shown in http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Station_list, click "Name" at the right of "Sort by". A drop-down menu should appear
07:42<dragonhorseboy>hm which release version did it first appear in?
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07:44<Alberth>No idea, I never use official releases, maybe somebody else knows this?
07:45<dih>this chat trunkation is annoying! ;-)
07:45<dih>i.e. the limited chars from the normal chat window
07:45<dih>and the trunkation of the chat message when entered over the console
07:47<Eddi|zuHause2>make it split in multiple lines instead
07:48<dragonhorseboy>alberth thanks anyhow
07:49<dragonhorseboy>me just looking at maybe trying build a custom openttd folder (taking some of the good things I used to like from mini-in list as well) .. who knows what it might turn out into ^-^
07:49<@SmatZ>thgergo: isn't the note about wooden bridge in NewGRF specs?
07:49<@SmatZ>that it has to have "unlimited" length
07:49<@SmatZ>hmm maybe not, strange
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07:53<dragonhorseboy>smatz...well when you think about it if the bridge is low height .. wood one have quite almost unlimited length in reality .. limited by amount of timbers you can get ;)
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07:55<@SmatZ>:-)
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07:56<LA>lo SmatZ :9
07:56<LA>:)*
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07:58<dragonhorseboy>smatz if there's one thing .. its that I really like the co-operation patch (the one re sharing track&station) which too often can be a bonus when building in mountainous or shoreline-squeezed terrains ^_^
07:59<@SmatZ>hello LA :-)
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08:00<dragonhorseboy>hey glx
08:07<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: but that still needs A LOT of work to make it clean...
08:08<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker not to sound dumb --- what kind of work? (I've never read much of about it at all..just knowing that it was listed in the patches gui in mini-in)
08:08<TiberiusTeng>ha, infrastructure sharing makes me eager to play some huge online sessions
08:08<TiberiusTeng>but I don't even have time to play some single player sessions :p
08:08<TiberiusTeng>for (;;) { press run; load some games; look for glitches; stop and patch; }
08:09<dragonhorseboy>tiberiusteng...well one nice example of line sharing that I remember doing was when someone had one double track coal line (from north to south) and the coal mine wasn't really producing much so I took another coal mine a bit further northwest with a short piece of my own tracks then shared player2's the rest of the way down
08:09<dragonhorseboy>the lines was fine with both traffics on it anyway ;)
08:11<TiberiusTeng>considering you can set various sharing 'fee' rates ... I bet it can bring tremendous diversity into online games, but still have to try :p
08:11<TiberiusTeng>maybe WWOTTDGD will be my first day playing the patch
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08:12<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13604 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: rail/road crossings are not buildable either (and worse: caused asserts)
08:13<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13605 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: on VM deletion, destroy the stack top-down, so instances are removed in an order one might expected
08:18<dragonhorseboy>well I usually set the fee/% to a low one to just about pay for the track maintenance expenses most of the times
08:18<dragonhorseboy>makes little sense otherwise ;)
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08:27<k-man>how do you transfer oil from an oil rig to a train station?
08:28<Progman>per ship
08:28<dragonhorseboy>k-man is the train station next to the rig or ?
08:29<+glx>by raising land and build tracks
08:29<Progman>but sometimes I build a station in the ocean ;)
08:29<dragonhorseboy>k-man ?
08:30<k-man>i built a dock
08:30<k-man>and a tanker takes oil to the dock, then i put a station next to the dock
08:30<k-man>but the oil doesn'tseem to flow from the dock to the station
08:30<dragonhorseboy>k-man oh so ships? just change the ship to "unload"+"transfer" at the dock and its done
08:30<dragonhorseboy>make sure the dock and rail are one station anyhow :p
08:30<+glx>the station must touch the dock (ie have the same name)
08:31<dragonhorseboy>glx..I already said that heh
08:31<k-man>dragonhorseboy, ah.. they aren't one station
08:31<k-man>thats the problem
08:31<+glx>[14:31:00] <+glx> the station must touch the dock (ie have the same name)
08:31<+glx>[14:31:00] <dragonhorseboy> make sure the dock and rail are one station anyhow :p
08:31<+glx>no I said it first ;)
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08:32<k-man><dragonhorseboy> make sure the dock and rail are one station anyhow :p
08:32<k-man><glx> the station must touch the dock (ie have the same name)
08:32<k-man>glx, it came the other way around this end
08:32<k-man>either way, thanks :)
08:33*dragonhorseboy whacks glx
08:33<dragonhorseboy>:p
08:33<dragonhorseboy>hehe
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08:34<dragonhorseboy>either way k-man if you want a suggestion .. go find newships.grf .. it'll add more interesting ships to look at ;)
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08:44<planetmaker>[14:08] <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker not to sound dumb --- what kind of work? <--- infrastructure sharing can be broken down in smaller parts, I think
08:44<dragonhorseboy>ah hmm I see now
08:44<planetmaker>that makes it much easier to integrate. Also some balancing issues remain: like how to avoid other players messing up your network etc
08:45<dragonhorseboy>and planetmaker not sure if this could be counted as a bug or not but one more thing...
08:45<planetmaker>the latter is actually at least as hard.
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08:45<dragonhorseboy>if I build my rails diagonal and join into someone's straight rails .. then I later decide to remove my diagonal line for good ... there's still a stubborn little switch remaining because it thinks that one rail stub is actually owned by player2 when I was actually the one that built it
08:46<dragonhorseboy>but then I guess that the problem probably is from that its really one single tile so go figure
08:46<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: you cannot build a piece of rain on a tile where someone else built already
08:47<planetmaker>so, for a y-split, you need the other to co-operate
08:47<planetmaker>and have him build it on this tile
08:47<dragonhorseboy>yeah
08:47<dragonhorseboy>hm and one more related thing..'
08:48<planetmaker>well... then - where's the bug? Or the problem? I don't get you :S
08:49<planetmaker>the player whom you linked to has a y-tile remaining... but that doesn't hurt and cannot be helped.
08:49<dragonhorseboy>I don't understand why the fee and % can be allowed to be set so high .. that just makes it way too unrelastic to ever use it (eg why pay 300 pounds per cargo at station when you're barely only doing say just 45 bags of diamond
08:49<dragonhorseboy>or its just me?
08:49<dragonhorseboy>^-^
08:49<k-man>dragonhorseboy, actually, i was thinking i might just build out to the rigs to get trains straight to them
08:49<k-man>anyway
08:49<k-man>i'm off
08:49<k-man>night all
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08:50<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: you want to allow for real rip-offs, don't you ;)
08:50<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker I'll prefer not to
08:51<planetmaker>you're not forced to use that station
08:51<dragonhorseboy>I have the station cargo fee set to just 7 pounds per cargo .. on top of other numbers being low -- more or less just well enough to cover the cost of construction&upkeep ;)
08:51<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker..in tight places you can
08:51<planetmaker>you're not required to service every town and every industry either :)
08:52<planetmaker>one thing I'd like to see is a per-station fee. :)
08:52<planetmaker>individual stations :)
08:52<planetmaker>but that's an entirely different patch then.
08:52<LA>'lo pm
08:52<planetmaker>and is partially helped already by the waypoints forbidding access to a track
08:53<planetmaker>hey LA :)
08:54<dragonhorseboy>well planetmaker let me put it one way: player2 got a rail station near middle of a town that then grew quite big and now I want to serve a bank but the only possible connection at all is either by road (which would be weak long distance) or sharing that old player2's rail station
08:54<dragonhorseboy>I never could understand why banks can't be built more or less on the skirt of the town rather than in middle so it would be easier to reach when the population still grows but oh well
08:55<Roujin>jesus, grfs are a confusing thing
08:56<Alberth>Roujin: Too much backwards compatible ;-)
08:56<Roujin>I understand that 0x0B is for tramway. is 0x0C unused? (it seems so but I don't know where to confirm)
08:56<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: I see what you mean. But I disagree that that's a problem or issue at all. :) If the other player doesn't want you to use that station - bad luck
08:57<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker...well will someone shoot the person who thought openttd population should have a 300%/year growth rate than a slow ttdx default one? :p
08:57<dragonhorseboy>even a well served city into the 2000's in ttdx never had any issues with bank reaching - just move a few houses out of way and thats it
08:57*dragonhorseboy shakes head
08:58<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: you can adjust the growth rate to your liking...
08:58<planetmaker>you can even disable growth at all
08:58<Roujin>seems i have to dig into the newgrf stuff deeper than i wished to *sigh*
08:58<planetmaker>you set it to maniac and rabit-like ;)
08:58<planetmaker>Roujin: you can make it :)
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08:59<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker the only thing I can see working is '_ in 4' growth option and city multiplier which doesn't really do much for growth curbing?
09:00<planetmaker>Can someone point me to a ressource on how to maintain savegame compatibility with patches. E.g. how to ensure that saves from clean trunk can still be loaded? Or at least a bit older, clean trunk?
09:01<planetmaker>aim: make scenario with trunk. Be able to load in a patched version
09:01<@SmatZ>planetmaker: not easy, you have to update all patches that need savegame conversion
09:02<planetmaker>SmatZ: yeah... nevertheless. wwottdgd doesn't load the map. And I want to make it decently.
09:03<@SmatZ>planetmaker: update wwottdgd to current revision :)
09:03<planetmaker>Or, if that turns out way too difficult: a guide how to hack savegames ;)
09:03<planetmaker>(No, I don't want another person just do it, I want to understand :) )
09:03<@SmatZ>simply, all patches that use "version from / version to" fields in the SaveGame struct should change that number, for example 97 -> 98
09:03<@Rubidium>there's some howto thingy on the wiki
09:03<dragonhorseboy>just wondering but whats 'wwottdgd'?
09:04<Alberth>world-wide openTTD game day
09:04<@Rubidium>i.e. a load of patches with another load of patches so the hacks in the first patches don't completely break
09:04<dragonhorseboy>oh heh
09:05<planetmaker>yeah, Rubidium speaketh the truth :)
09:05<planetmaker>SmatZ: hm... I gathered that from your comments last time.
09:06<planetmaker>And I have the impression that I did that...
09:06<planetmaker>are there other places where to look, too?
09:07<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: basically it's a patchpack which shall allow to play with ~50 clients and shared tracks
09:11<dragonhorseboy>50 clients? is there ever more than 15 people in one game at times?
09:11<TiberiusTeng>wwottdgd will have a patchset diff file, right?
09:12<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: yes. It does. In the dev forum's wwottdgd thread I posted the diffs.
09:12<TiberiusTeng>great. (planning something evil)
09:12<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: on 12th July, definitely. On our public server on #openttdcoop we frequently have all 11 slots taken
09:12<TiberiusTeng>nah. just an hardware-assisted (?) blitter version. :p
09:13<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker hmm never knew there could be that many people on only one map heh :p
09:13<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker what map size is it usually?
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09:14<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: depends. 256x1024 up to 1024x1024
09:14<+glx>dragonhorseboy: and all are in 1 company
09:15<dragonhorseboy>ah not "huge" then .. heh
09:16<dragonhorseboy>1024x1024 with 50 people .. sounds crazy but fun :p
09:16<planetmaker>yeah, will be fun, I guess :)
09:17<dragonhorseboy>is there grfs in use on this game day map?
09:18<planetmaker>sure.
09:21<@Rubidium>but... a 128x128 map is too small for a single person
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09:23<@Rubidium>though I see no reason for a map bigger than 256x256 if you want to transport massive amounts of cargo
09:25<Roujin>ahaha, copy&paste ftw
09:25<planetmaker>Rubidium: but then it's not eye candy anymore :)
09:26<Roujin>I just found such a stupid c&p error I made... meh ><
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09:27<Roujin>no wonder the trails look like trams if trails.nfo takes all its sprites from tramtracks.pcx instead of trails.pcx :P
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09:27<planetmaker>:P
09:28<dragonhorseboy>actually I used to play 128x128 once with normal industries&towns to see how far I could literally develop it (no custom grfs too)
09:28<dragonhorseboy>hmm I should try challenge it again with zero of anything except maybe 200-300 longvehicles alone and see how far I could get :)
09:31<dragonhorseboy>well I'm going for a while now
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09:37<Alberth>Roujin: off-road trams! :P
09:37<@Rubidium>for a 128x128 map I've reached 83% of the amount of cargo transported in Pile ``final''
09:38<Gekz>lol I played a 128x128 map with 4 people
09:38<Gekz>I had 6 airports, 40 planes
09:38<Gekz>was a mess.
09:41<Rexxars>I haven't been paying attention to the OTTD community lately, is there a plan for 0.7?
09:41<Gekz>was there a plan for 0.6?
09:42<Rexxars>there was a general roadmap, yes
09:42<Roujin>how do I apply the openttd palette to an image using gimp?
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09:53<+glx>we never written any roadmaps
09:57<Mchl>so... what are those 'Roadmap 0.x' articles on wiki?
09:57<Mchl>:P
09:58<planetmaker>something which is fed to too curious 'users' :P - I guess :)
09:59<Mchl>damn.... and I actually believed it...
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10:06<@Rubidium>Mchl: under developers those roadmaps are better known as "user wishes"
10:09<LA>roujin, open a indexed picture.. like trg*r.pcx and then just delete everything there.. and save it
10:09<LA>it still is indexed
10:09<LA>that's how I do it :P
10:09<LA>u can resize it and do anything , just don't change it to rgb again :P
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10:49<Roujin>what was the name of that tool that removes blinking pixels from sprites?
10:52<skidd13>Roujin: paint, gimp, but I guess thats not the answer you want ;)
10:53<Sacro>http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/06/21/203240.shtml <- so sergey_s is fine then
10:54<skidd13>Roujin: I guess thats what you meant http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7519
10:55<Roujin>skidd13: thanks a bunch :)
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11:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13606 /trunk/src/core/ (10 files): -Codechange: use "static FORCEINLINE" where possible as default for core functions (big functions use just inline instead)
11:24<LA>roujin, what are u drawing?
11:32<Roujin>LA: see here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=38108
11:32<Roujin>i have to go off now, see you later
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11:33<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: if you're interested in testing wwottdgd, join us on #openttdcoop.dev
11:34<planetmaker>the server's running now
11:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13607 /trunk/src/core/ (alloc_func.hpp alloc_type.hpp math_func.hpp random_func.hpp): -Fix (r13606): some coding style issues got fixed but some got/stayed broken
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12:02<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13608 /branches/noai/ (11 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: renamed AI_ET_CRASHED_VEHICLE to AI_ET_VEHICLE_CRASHED to be more uniform with other events (Yexo)
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12:15<SpComb>hmm, I have half a fire station
12:15<SpComb>and even that is partially transparent
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12:25<Wolf01>I have that very often, and it happens with police station too
12:25<Wolf01>and once with the hospital
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13:01<pavel1269>hi
13:03<@SmatZ>hi
13:08<Sacro>hi
13:10<SpComb>hrmph, what DBSet engines are you supposed to use for freight in 2001+?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause2>the new ones are supposed to be universal, i guess
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14:44<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13609 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: silence warnings about unused variables for gcc2 builds without asserts
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15:02<Wolf01>'night
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15:09<SpComb>hmm... can't carry livestock in a stake wagon
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>not usually :)
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15:36<SpComb>is it possible to refit wagons automatically?
15:36<SpComb>say I've got a large number of trains, and they all have two wagons that are incorrectly refitted
15:36<SpComb>said trains are all in a single group - so can I somehow make all of them refit themselves?
15:38<Mchl>refit order?
15:39<SpComb>you mean add an order for them to refit in each of the trains' orders?
15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>no, in the shared order :)
15:47*TiberiusTeng stuck on texture coordinates again
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15:59<SpComb>hmm... I like to keep some of my old 100-year-old vehicles in a train depo somewhere... is there some way to make OpenTTD not complain about them all the time?
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16:00<planetmaker>SpComb: change your news settings to off for that category
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16:08<planetmaker>Is in the scenario editor the possibility to place a patch of trees like an airbrush tool in a image manipulation programme?
16:09<planetmaker>+n
16:09<planetmaker>(avoiding all those square woods to appear?)
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16:51<ln>hello to all the 18-year-old girls on the channel
16:51<Phantasm>;P
16:52<blathijs>ln: I guess all of them are saying hello back right now
16:53<ln>yeah, a flood of greetings
16:55<Phantasm>And I'm sure they all want to have sex with you as well.
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17:02<eekee>ah, dreams, lol
17:05<ln>Phantasm: you pervert -- the rest of us know that 18-year-old girls are for OTTD multiplayer games.
17:09*eekee finds that very funny, but doesn't know why ^^;
17:21<Sacro>18 year old girls?
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17:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13610 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: AIDepotList giving you a list of the locations of your depots (including hangars).
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18:35<fjb>Hello
18:40<eekee>olleH
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19:07<SpComb>the game gets mighty boring once the year gets to 2037 :(
19:08<SpComb>unless I build new ICE3 lines, or even a transrapid, something I haven't done yet
19:08<SpComb>but they don't even sell BR112s anymore, and all my (as recently built as 2004) local trains are too old already
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>the DBSet has no futuristic vehicles
19:09<fjb>Yes, I'm usually setting the end year at 2030.
19:09<SpComb>indeed, the year should just stop in 2008 or so and then keep looping
19:09<SpComb>hmm, can you change the end year to be earlier in OpenTTD?
19:09<fjb>Canset and Long Vehicles have the same problem, if you see it as a problem.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i believe you can, but without recompiling?
19:10<SpComb>I guess the problem is that it's 2038 and I'm still building out my passenger network
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>use daylength ;)
19:11<SpComb>the DB probably hasn't built any new stations for the past xyears
19:11<SpComb>*x years
19:11<fjb>Yes, you can when you generate a new game. It is an option in iopenttd.cfg: "ending_year"
19:11<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, they have
19:11<Eddi|zuHause2>they built a new main station in the middle of berlin
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>they opened it like two years ago
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>or last year?
19:12<SpComb>what about new lines, or stations in cities that didn't have stations before?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a lousy memory
19:12<SpComb>but myes, perhaps daylength would be a solution
19:12<SpComb>and playing co-op with someone who has the exact same passenger-network building style as I have (hah)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>SpComb: the problem was that berlin was cut in half for quite a long time, so the network there was ... underdeveloped ;)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>mainly they built new high speed lines, occasionally with stations
19:13<SpComb>I'm playing co-op with a friend, it's a bit silly because I don't really agree with the way he builds tracks, doesn't fit my sense of style... so I end up rebuilding half of them, so he doesn't really get a chacne to do very much
19:14<Eddi|zuHause2>like, they built a new line between Halle and Leipzig via the Airport
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>the old line passes the town of Schkeuditz several kilometers away from the airport
19:16<Eddi|zuHause2>the old line was opened like in the 1840's, there was no airport to consider back then ;)
19:16<SpComb>but myes, I've come to the conclusion that now with YAPP, there's not really any need for me to have TTDPatch anymore
19:17<SpComb>only thing missing is enhanced tunnels and custom bridge heads
19:19<Eddi|zuHause2>those will not be implemented in the TTDP way
19:20<SpComb>what's the reasoning behind that? Is there some concept for a better way to do something equivalent (as with YAPP)?
19:21<jfc>enhanced tunnel are simply not desired in ottd. It has been describied as been ugly
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>the Great Big Concept (tm) is to have fully flexible bridges and tunnels, which would then have these two features as minor sideeffects
19:21<jfc>and it's a bit of a hack either way
19:21<jfc>just another one..
19:21<SpComb>diagonal tunnels?
19:22<jfc>well...
19:22<@Rubidium>does TTDP custom bridge heads support stations on the bridgeheads?
19:22<SpComb>most surely not
19:22<jfc>possible, but would require lots of work (diagonal)
19:22<SpComb>I don't even think it supports signals
19:22<@Rubidium>SpComb: exactly the reason why we don't implement it their way
19:22<@Rubidium>custom should mean *custom*
19:23<SpComb>well, that's probably just an implementation detail
19:23<@Rubidium>not you have some very limited added functionality
19:23<SpComb>hmm, OpenTTD doesn't support signals on bridges yet
19:23<jfc>yet
19:23<Eddi|zuHause2>"detail" as in "starting the job completely different"
19:24<jfc>in trunk, no signal on bridges yet. but i know somewhere, the work has been started already
19:24<curson>hi all, is there's a way in 0.6.1 to modify the speed at which time flows?
19:24<curson>days really go too fast :p
19:24<SpComb>indeed, I just came to that conclusion earlier as well
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>curson: no, but there is a daylength patch
19:24<fjb>No, and yes, they go too fast. :-)
19:25<curson>mhm, do you have a link for it?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but there are patch packs in the forum which include it
19:25<SpComb>oh, and the chat messages and train name length restrictions are ridiculous
19:25-!-TiberiusTeng [~Tiberius@sbt.idv.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:25<SpComb>you can hardly type in a full sentence into the chat box
19:26<jfc>poor dear...
19:26<SpComb>and with train names you often have to remove spaces/punctuation to fit in all the info you want
19:26-!-dR3x4cK [~Miranda@p5499D486.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: dR3x4cK]
19:26<curson>mhm...
19:26<curson>ok, I'll look into the forum, Eddi|zuHause2
19:26<curson>thank you
19:30<jfc>SpComb, i fail to see how in 64 chars, you cannot tell waht you need to tell to your fellow players
19:30<jfc>you can still use a new line
19:30<jfc>otherwise, how long do you think a chat message line would need to be?
19:30<@Rubidium>infinite ofcourse
19:31<jfc>yeah... silly me...
19:31<@Rubidium>sending multiple GBs of data to the server in a single packet
19:31<@Rubidium>so the server can then distribute it and look frozen for three days
19:31-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-54418bdb.lns1-c7.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd
19:32<SpComb>IRC uses 512 bytes (which is also different from 512 chars)
19:32<jfc>nice :D
19:32<SpComb>I imagine 64 bytes might run out quickly for all those chinese OpenTTD players out there
19:32<jfc>and then, some one wo;; come and say the same as you... 512 is not enough!!
19:32<SpComb>it's also far too short for any reasonable long Finnish-language full sentence
19:33<jfc>it's a chat
19:33<jfc>not a discussion on theology
19:33<jfc>irc doe snot have the same purpose as the chat
19:33<jfc>if yo want to be verbose, why would you need to use chat? You're not playing? you're talking?
19:33<jfc>does not make sens
19:34<SpComb>you're discussing things in the game
19:34<SpComb>and such discussions might well take up a sentence or two
19:34<SpComb>rather annoying have to split it out across four lines, with breaks in mid-word
19:34<jfc>o_O
19:34<jfc>indeed
19:34<jfc>so true
19:34<SpComb>particularly if you're playing co-op
19:35<SpComb>perhaps 64 chars is enough if you're just competing with others
19:35<curson>seems like none of the recent patches work with 0.6.1
19:35<SpComb>but with co-op, you need to communicate a bit more
19:35<SpComb>but perhaps one should just use IRC indeed
19:37<curson>oh well, no big deal :)
19:38<SpComb>curson: what's the url for the daylength patch topic?
19:38<SpComb>assuming you found it
19:42-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-64-31.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
19:42<curson>I did
19:42<curson>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31657&start=180&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
19:43<curson>but the latest patch posted, for one of the latest nightly build, doesn't apply to 0.6.1
19:43<jfc>two choices : try to make it 0.6.1 compatible or do not use 0.6.1 :)
19:44<jfc>nighlies are not that bad nor evil ;)
19:46<curson>still
19:46<curson>the last patch posted is for a "older" nightly
19:46<curson>well, tomorrow I'll probably get one and try with that ;)
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19:50<fjb>UpdateOrderDest() got a new third argument. What is that for?
19:52<SpComb>hmm, opening up a giant screenshot of a 512x512 map in firefox... bad idea, it seems
19:52-!-bcool [~bcool@75-164-163-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:53<fjb>You need some swap space...
19:53<SpComb>1941MB of ram used (by applications)
19:54<SpComb>over 2G swap used
19:58<curson>you need Opera ;)
19:58-!-LSky` [~hixscript@cc103898-a.roden1.dr.home.nl] has quit []
19:59<SpComb>eye of gnome opens it up without choking too badly in fact, it's only using some 200M of RES now that it got it open - but it used 1.7G while opening, and is currently zoomed out
20:00<SpComb>zooming in is a slow operation
20:01<SpComb>hmm, actually, it's not even that bad, although it's a bit slow resampling it
20:01<curson>Opera and qiv
20:01<curson>then :)
20:02<fjb>A webbrowser is not always the best option to view pictures...
20:02<SpComb>it will be once I write my large-image-viewer
20:02<curson>definitely not, but I've not problem opening huge image in opera
20:03<SpComb> http://skrblz.fixme.fi/~terom/openttd/pvl_20080614_2040_giant.png <-- try that one
20:03<SpComb>it's only 83MB
20:03<curson>trying :D
20:03<SpComb>EOG is pretty smooth now that it got it loaded
20:03<curson>no swap
20:04<SpComb>it completely trashed firefox
20:04<curson>opera is still fully usable
20:04<SpComb>can you view the image and zoom in nicely?
20:04<curson>but I wouldn't try to open a video on youtube now
20:04<curson>zooming is damn slow, but it works
20:05<SpComb>go admire the passenger network in the west and south
20:05<curson>btw, who's the crazy-must-be-the-devil who's posting a screenshot of 83mb?
20:05<SpComb>o/
20:06<fjb>Still loading it...
20:07<SpComb>hmm... 4.4mbit/s... is that restricted by my end or your end?
20:08<SpComb>I have pretty good speeds for national traffic that goes via FICIX, but international traffic goes via nebula and is often pretty slow
20:08<fjb>Or the net inbetween...
20:09<SpComb>(well, "often pretty slow", I mean low-quality)
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the first few rows loaded fine for me, and i could scroll around nicely, i didn't want to drain my line any further
20:15<Eddi|zuHause2>i wouldn't finish 83MB before the disconnect anyway
20:16<SpComb>the disconnect?
20:16*curson is compiling the latest nightly with daylenght patch
20:16<curson>...lots of warning, but let's see if it works ;)
20:16-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41648.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:18<Eddi|zuHause2>generally apply patches only to the revision they were made for, unless you really know what you are doing
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20:19<curson>yep, it does :)
20:19<SpComb>warnings might just cause it to crash later
20:19<Georgio>hey
20:20*eekee thinks 95
20:20*eekee thinks 95% of gcc warnings are spam anyway
20:20<curson>ahahah
20:25<+glx>eekee: same goes for MSVC ones, but sometimes MSVC is right to warn
20:26<eekee>right
20:27<eekee>personally I'd rather not have one or two warnings than lose all warnings in a 95%-meaningless flood
20:29<+glx><SpComb> the disconnect? <-- yes he has a silly disconnect every 24h ISP
20:29<fjb>Patching, patching, patching, I hope the latest trunk and YAPP work together...
20:34-!-Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54B76292.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
20:37<Georgio>hey is there a OpenTTD editor for download on the site?
20:38<+glx>openttd editor?
20:38*Chrill quotes glx
20:38<Georgio>yea like a program that eases the editing of vehicles and stuff
20:39<+glx>just use a newgrf
20:39<Chrill>Well, there's a language
20:39<Chrill>learn to code, perhaps?
20:39<Georgio>or do i need to hex edit it...
20:39<Georgio>omg
20:39<Chrill>I believe there was some sort of editor
20:39<+glx>and action 0 grfs are very easy to write
20:39<Chrill>but for TTDPatch or something, and not sure if it was actually released
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20:41<Georgio>how do i "make" vehicles?
20:42<Georgio>or edit
20:42<Sacro>you take a mummy vehicle and a daddy vehicle that love each other very much...
20:42<Chrill>Georgio, you make some graphics and kindly ask someone who can produce it.. to produce it
20:43<fjb>That results in a traffic jam...
20:43<Georgio>ok simpler question... why dosnt my cutom vehicle names save?
20:43<Chrill>Why'd you want those? :P
20:43<Georgio>custom*
20:43<Chrill>Also, am not aware of that issue and wont be able to help without a save and stuff
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>custom vehicle names? i thought we did away with them a long time ago
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>the feature has been broken for ages
20:48<Georgio>f
20:48<Chrill>Ah
20:48<Georgio>nvm
20:48<Georgio>fix it maybe?
20:48<Georgio>OWEN!!!
20:48<+glx>Chrill: no need for a gfx to just change vehicle properties
20:49<Chrill>hm?
20:49<+glx>just needs an action 8 (required) and as many action 0 as needed
20:49<Chrill>no need for a wut to do what?
20:49<Georgio>?
20:49<Georgio>nvm im confused
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20:50<+glx>I guess Georgio wants something like ttdalter
20:50<Georgio>yez
20:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd suggest we'd redirect him to #tycoon :p
20:50<Georgio>omg i jus came back from swimming at beach giv me a break
20:51<Georgio>lol
20:51<Georgio>>.<
20:51<Georgio>brb
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>beach... at 3AM... could be fun :p
20:57<Georgio>im back
20:57<Georgio>i live in US
20:58<Chrill>how hardcore
20:58<Chrill>im Swedish
20:58<Chrill>nice to meet you
20:58<Georgio>same here
20:58<Chrill>where in US be you living?
20:58<Georgio>sorry late responce
20:58<Georgio>tesas
20:59<Chrill>Texas?
20:59<Georgio>i used to live in Moscow Russia
20:59<Georgio>yea
20:59<Chrill>I used to live in Stockholm, Sweden
20:59<Chrill>and now..
20:59<Chrill>I still do
20:59<Georgio>lol
20:59<Chrill>and I will
20:59<Chrill>for at least 2 years
20:59<Georgio>wow
20:59<Chrill>before I move to Gothenburg with the sweetheart :P
20:59<Chrill>need to finish high school college whatever thing
20:59<Georgio>yea
21:00<Chrill>she's there now tho and have been for 2 and a half weeks
21:00<Chrill>stinks big time :(
21:00<Georgio>omfg how many times do i have to fund new buildings for a significant effect?
21:00<Georgio>yea
21:00<Chrill>Georgio, just build 3-4 bus stops and run like 4 buses
21:00<Chrill>it'll explode :)
21:01<Georgio>lol
21:01<Eddi|zuHause3>5 bus stops ;)
21:01<Chrill>Eddi|zuHause3, 4 bus stops and a train station
21:01<Chrill>:)
21:01<Georgio>in locomtion you build 1 bus stop and population jumps by 10,000
21:01<Eddi|zuHause3>well, one bus stop at the train station :p
21:01<Georgio>lol
21:01<Georgio>ye
21:01<Chrill>in Locomotion, you shut the game off and play OpenTTD :P
21:02<Georgio>im on openttd
21:02<Chrill>I know :p
21:02<Chrill>see the channel name ;)
21:02<Georgio>yes
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21:33<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i'm afraid this is getting worse...
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22:59<ccfreak2k>Is a "coal mine subsidence" part of a newgrf?
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